Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => Politics & Current Affairs => Topic started by: Rhiannon on June 25, 2015, 01:44:39 PM
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It's looking likelier.
This is from The Economist.
http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21654598-greece-and-euro-zone-are-stuck-abusive-relationship-my-big-fat-greek-divorce
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From the start I've been of the opinion that Greece should default. It's got to be better than what they're facing under the current bailout agreement: 30-40 years of austerity (and that's working on a 3% budget surplus).
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What ever happens the EU/EZ is stuffed. The true nasty colours of Brussels etc. is clear to the other bailout countries so if Greece stays in they know they will be treated like dogs as well, and if Greece leaves then the fallout on the EU dream will be a big ? over their heads (for the members and the markets) and when Greece gradually gets on track again the others will question their memberships.
The migration problem wont help either as this isn't going to stop soon.
Personally I think the 'Troika' are trying to discredit Syriza so the Greeks will have further elections and vote in a pro-EU party.
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From the start I've been of the opinion that Greece should default. It's got to be better than what they're facing under the current bailout agreement: 30-40 years of austerity (and that's working on a 3% budget surplus).
Leaving will be no picnic either. They're screwed either way.
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From the start I've been of the opinion that Greece should default. It's got to be better than what they're facing under the current bailout agreement: 30-40 years of austerity (and that's working on a 3% budget surplus).
Leaving will be no picnic either. They're screwed either way.
You make your bed, and you lie on it.
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From the start I've been of the opinion that Greece should default. It's got to be better than what they're facing under the current bailout agreement: 30-40 years of austerity (and that's working on a 3% budget surplus).
Leaving will be no picnic either. They're screwed either way.
Yes they are screwed. However, if they leave, I think they will be more screwed but for a much shorter period of time.
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From the start I've been of the opinion that Greece should default. It's got to be better than what they're facing under the current bailout agreement: 30-40 years of austerity (and that's working on a 3% budget surplus).
Leaving will be no picnic either. They're screwed either way.
Yes they are screwed. However, if they leave, I think they will be more screwed but for a much shorter period of time.
So, what are the bets on who will be next to quit/be forced out of the Euro Zone? If any?
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This is interesting. The German taxpayers might hope it's them.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jun/22/greece-eurozone-germans-single-currency
However, a fucked euro will screw the global economy. If it goes belly up it has to be done as orderly as possible. Otherwise we're talking depression, not recession.
I believe we're only minimally exposed to Greece though, so short term the hit shouldn't be too bad. With any luck there'll be some kind of contingency plan in place by the time the whole currency implodes. Bloody stupid idea.
Of course Putin is throwing an interesting spanner in the works by getting all cosy. Just what Obama would hate - Greece being backed by Russia instead of the EU.
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So, what are the bets on who will be next to quit/be forced out of the Euro Zone? If any?
Hopefully nobody or it'll make the 2008 crisis look like a picnic.
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So, what are the bets on who will be next to quit/be forced out of the Euro Zone? If any?
Hopefully nobody or it'll make the 2008 crisis look like a picnic.
I don't see anyone being forced out. Some might choose to leave though.
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From the start I've been of the opinion that Greece should default. It's got to be better than what they're facing under the current bailout agreement: 30-40 years of austerity (and that's working on a 3% budget surplus).
Leaving will be no picnic either. They're screwed either way.
There's no legal mechanism for them to leave the EZ. Though that didn't stop the EU from bailing them out so...
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It's difficult to see how Greece can avoid default given the announcement of the referendum. If no decision can be made until after the 5th of July they are bot going to receive the bailout before the end of the deadline at the end of the month.
It's becoming an 'interesting' situation.
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I suspect something may be cobbled together, for fear of Greece turning to Russia!
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I suspect something may be cobbled together, for fear of Greece turning to Russia!
I'm not sure Mr Putin would be all that supportive if it actually comes to forking out cash.
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The Greek bailout extension has been refused. Now what?
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The Greek bailout extension has been refused. Now what?
Probably not the time to book a holiday in Greece.
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It's difficult to see how Greece can avoid default given the announcement of the referendum. If no decision can be made until after the 5th of July they are bot going to receive the bailout before the end of the deadline at the end of the month.
It's becoming an 'interesting' situation.
They asked for an extension to the bailout but I gather they have been refused. If neither side budges now it is crash time and we are into unknown territory.
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I suspect something may be cobbled together, for fear of Greece turning to Russia!
I think it has gone so far now that for either side to flinch will mean major embarrassment. Only Syriza can now flinch now and I think they have what they always wanted - to say they have been pushed by unreasonable people.
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I have been a bit confused about this referendum. Does it refer to the loan repayment due within the next day or so, or does it refer to the next repayment due in mid-July? Or, is it designed to cover both?
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I have been a bit confused about this referendum. Does it refer to the loan repayment due within the next day or so, or does it refer to the next repayment due in mid-July? Or, is it designed to cover both?
As I understand it refers to the whole package, that is, not only the repayments but the reforms which the IMF and EU want Greece to implement.
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The Greek Government seems to be blaming everyone but themselves, and previous Greek Governments for the mess they are in. From what I gather there has been mismanagement of their finances for many years.
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The Greek Government seems to be blaming everyone but themselves, and previous Greek Governments for the mess they are in. From what I gather there has been mismanagement of their finances for many years.
And they're mostly right. The IMF, especially, is nothing more than a bully.
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The Greek Government seems to be blaming everyone but themselves, and previous Greek Governments for the mess they are in. From what I gather there has been mismanagement of their finances for many years.
And they're mostly right. The IMF, especially, is nothing more than a bully.
RUBBISH! Greece has cocked things up BIG TIME!
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The Greek Government seems to be blaming everyone but themselves, and previous Greek Governments for the mess they are in. From what I gather there has been mismanagement of their finances for many years.
And they're mostly right. The IMF, especially, is nothing more than a bully.
RUBBISH! Greece has cocked things up BIG TIME!
No one is denying that Greece had, and still has, many problems, the main one being tax collection. However, the current government can't really be blamed for that. Many reforms have been implemented, with varying degrees of success, but both the IMF and EU are are being unreasonable. The austerity measures they have demanded have already caused the Greek economy to shrink by 25%. How on earth is that supposed to turn the Greek economy around? Not only that but the ordinary Greek citizen is supposed to bear the brunt of previous Greek governments' mismanagement and IMF/EU bullying? It's complete madness.
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Greece has only itself to blame. It mismanaged its economy massively; low taxes: not enough money acquired from taxation; plus horrific levels of evasion, all unchecked; ridiculous pension arrangements, often amounting to 92% of finishing salary; overspending, multiplied by its entry into the EU, when borrowing became easier, and the Greek Government was allowed to borrow huge amounts, and then went on a spending spree: finishing up owing some £300 billion, far more debt than they could ever sustain. Then, when bailed out, and with creditors expecting their money back, entirely reasonably, they whine and squirm.. We could all do that, personally and on a national basis: borrow more than you can sustain, then balk about paying balk. Other counties, Spain, for example, must look on and think it'a one law for one, and one for the rest. Greece should be allowed to leave the Euro, and the EU, and make its own way.. You make your bed, you must lie on it. It would be better for them, in the long run, and for everyone else. To suggest they are being bullied is an absurdity: the IMF, and the ECB are fully entitled to insist on payments being made: they would be remiss to do otherwise. The Greeks have been given huge leeway: it's time to end it.
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Greece has only itself to blame. It mismanaged its economy massively; low taxes: not enough money acquired from taxation; plus horrific levels of evasion, all unchecked; ridiculous pension arrangements, often amounting to 92% of finishing salary; overspending, multiplied by its entry into the EU, when borrowing became easier, and the Greek Government was allowed to borrow huge amounts, and then went on a spending spree: finishing up owing some £300 billion, far more debt than they could ever sustain. Then, when bailed out, and with creditors expecting their money back, entirely reasonably, they whine and squirm.. We could all do that, personally and on a national basis: borrow more than you can sustain, then balk about paying balk. Other counties, Spain, for example, must look on and think it'a one law for one, and one for the rest. Greece should be allowed to leave the Euro, and the EU, and make its own way.. You make your bed, you must lie on it. It would be better for them, in the long run, and for everyone else. To suggest they are being bullied is an absurdity: the IMF, and the ECB are fully entitled to insist on payments being made: they would be remiss to do otherwise. The Greeks have been given huge leeway: it's time to end it.
How simplistic and for the most part just not true. But if you think that 30-40 years of austerity is reasonable...
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Greece has only itself to blame. It mismanaged its economy massively; low taxes: not enough money acquired from taxation; plus horrific levels of evasion, all unchecked; ridiculous pension arrangements, often amounting to 92% of finishing salary; overspending, multiplied by its entry into the EU, when borrowing became easier, and the Greek Government was allowed to borrow huge amounts, and then went on a spending spree: finishing up owing some £300 billion, far more debt than they could ever sustain. Then, when bailed out, and with creditors expecting their money back, entirely reasonably, they whine and squirm.. We could all do that, personally and on a national basis: borrow more than you can sustain, then balk about paying balk. Other counties, Spain, for example, must look on and think it'a one law for one, and one for the rest. Greece should be allowed to leave the Euro, and the EU, and make its own way.. You make your bed, you must lie on it. It would be better for them, in the long run, and for everyone else. To suggest they are being bullied is an absurdity: the IMF, and the ECB are fully entitled to insist on payments being made: they would be remiss to do otherwise. The Greeks have been given huge leeway: it's time to end it.
How simplistic and for the most part just not true. But if you think that 30-40 years of austerity is reasonable...
"Simplistic." Rubbish! What have I said that's not true? Please answer, rather than a blanket dismissal. How do you assess the situation any differently - and I doubt you actually can?
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Eh? I thought I already explained that in my previous post? Just how is a bailout plan that in five years has already caused an economy to shrink by 25% with a further 30-40 years of austerity (that's with a 3% budget surplus), with ordinary citizens bearing the brunt, in anyway reasonable? Perhaps you could explain that? How is that supposed to turn the Greek economy around?
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Eh? I thought I already explained that in my previous post? Just how is a bailout plan that in five years has already caused an economy to shrink by 25% with a further 30-40 years of austerity (that's with a 3% budget surplus), with ordinary citizens bearing the brunt, in anyway reasonable? Perhaps you could explain that? How is that supposed to turn the Greek economy around?
So you suggest they are allowed to renege on their debt obligations, then. We could all do that, but this is the real world, and Greece has to adhere to its rules, which they initially agreed to, by the way, just as we have, and Spain, and Portugal, and Ireland. It's unfortunate that the average citizen has to bear the brunt, but they do everywhere. What do you suggest happens, then? Because if you have an economic solution, then you will have bested the best brains in the whole of Europe. As I said, it is best if the Greeks are allowed to exit both the Euro, and eventually the EU, and make their own way without expecting billions in hand-outs on a regular basis. We owe even more than they do, and we are attempting to pay it back: and we, incidentally, have contributed to the bail-outs to Greece through our contributions to the IMF..
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First thing they need to do is relax the austerity demands and then agree to a more reasonable repayment plan or even put interest payments on withhold.
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The Greek Government seems to be blaming everyone but themselves, and previous Greek Governments for the mess they are in. From what I gather there has been mismanagement of their finances for many years.
And they're mostly right. The IMF, especially, is nothing more than a bully.
Don't be an idiot. The IMF wants Greece to pay its debts back on the terms that Greece agreed. How is wanting Greece to keep its side of the bargain bullying?
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First thing they need to do is relax the austerity demands and then agree to a more reasonable repayment plan or even put interest payments on withhold.
Basically, you mean give free money to Greece to bail them out of the shit that they got themselves into. I wonder if my bank will do that for me when I am overdrawn.
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First thing they need to do is relax the austerity demands and then agree to a more reasonable repayment plan or even put interest payments on withhold.
I repeat" Why?" Greece has been given so much leeway: there has to be an end of it somewhere. It is economic illiteracy to allow this to go on indefinitely. The bail-outs began in 2010, and now Greece owes money to the IMF, the ECB and the European Union, following its two bailouts in 2010, and again in 2012. They are waiting for a further £5.2 billion in rescue funds. Payments are due, but they simply want more loans to pay the outstanding amounts. Sheer lunacy, to allow this to go on!
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That really depends if they really want the Greek economy to turn around. I don't really see how that can happen under IMF/EU conditions. As I've pointed out, all it's done is cause the Greek economy to shrink drastically. How exactly that is supposed to enable Greece to pay its debts, I don't know and nor does the Greek goverment.
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First thing they need to do is relax the austerity demands and then agree to a more reasonable repayment plan or even put interest payments on withhold.
I repeat" Why?" Greece has been given so much leeway: there has to be an end of it somewhere. It is economic illiteracy to allow this to go on indefinitely. The bail-outs began in 2010, and now Greece owes money to the IMF, the ECB and the European Union, following its two bailouts in 2010, and again in 2012. They are waiting for a further £5.2 billion in rescue funds. Payments are due, but they simply want more loans to pay the outstanding amounts. Sheer lunacy, to allow this to go on!
End of it. There is no end of it under the current IMF/EU bailout plan, just endless harsh austerity.
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That really depends if they really want the Greek economy to turn around. I don't really see how that can happen under IMF/EU conditions. As I've pointed out, all it's done is cause the Greek economy to shrink drastically. How exactly that is supposed to enable Greece to pay its debts, I don't know and nor does the Greek goverment.
What the effects on the Greek economy are unfortunate, but it was all very foreseeable from the start, and that's why Greece should be allowed to exit the Euro, and find its own way. It is not one tiny bit realistic, for them, or for their creditors, to expect them to be allowed to exist on credit indefinitely.
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That really depends if they really want the Greek economy to turn around. I don't really see how that can happen under IMF/EU conditions. As I've pointed out, all it's done is cause the Greek economy to shrink drastically. How exactly that is supposed to enable Greece to pay its debts, I don't know and nor does the Greek goverment.
How do you feel about your taxes being used to subsidise the Greeks who are notoriously bad at paying their own taxes? Because this is what you are arguing for.
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That really depends if they really want the Greek economy to turn around. I don't really see how that can happen under IMF/EU conditions. As I've pointed out, all it's done is cause the Greek economy to shrink drastically. How exactly that is supposed to enable Greece to pay its debts, I don't know and nor does the Greek goverment.
How do you feel about your taxes being used to subsidise the Greeks who are notoriously bad at paying their own taxes? Because this is what you are arguing for.
Exactly!
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First thing they need to do is relax the austerity demands and then agree to a more reasonable repayment plan or even put interest payments on withhold.
Basically, you mean give free money to Greece to bail them out of the shit that they got themselves into. I wonder if my bank will do that for me when I am overdrawn.
If my experience is anything to go by - the answer is no bloody way! And that was only for £ 75.00
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That really depends if they really want the Greek economy to turn around. I don't really see how that can happen under IMF/EU conditions. As I've pointed out, all it's done is cause the Greek economy to shrink drastically. How exactly that is supposed to enable Greece to pay its debts, I don't know and nor does the Greek goverment.
How do you feel about your taxes being used to subsidise the Greeks who are notoriously bad at paying their own taxes? Because this is what you are arguing for.
Plus, of course, the Greek Govenment now in power was vot3d for by tye Greek people who object to the austerity measures that the previous government tried to implement to allow Greec to retain a modicum of growth in its economy.
If the Greek economy and Greek people suffer by being thrown out of or leaving the EU and the Eurozone as a result of the actions of the Greek government that they elected to take those very actions that they ARE taking - who is to blame - themselves.
The Greeks clearly have no concept of "If you are in a hole - stop digging!"
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That really depends if they really want the Greek economy to turn around. I don't really see how that can happen under IMF/EU conditions. As I've pointed out, all it's done is cause the Greek economy to shrink drastically. How exactly that is supposed to enable Greece to pay its debts, I don't know and nor does the Greek goverment.
How do you feel about your taxes being used to subsidise the Greeks who are notoriously bad at paying their own taxes? Because this is what you are arguing for.
Plus, of course, the Greek Govenment now in power was vot3d for by tye Greek people who object to the austerity measures that the previous government tried to implement to allow Greec to retain a modicum of growth in its economy.
If the Greek economy and Greek people suffer by being thrown out of or leaving the EU and the Eurozone as a result of the actions of the Greek government that they elected to take those very actions that they ARE taking - who is to blame - themselves.
The Greeks clearly have no concept of "If you are in a hole - stop digging!"
A "modicum of growth"? You're having a bubble bath, pal. It caused the Greek economy to shrink by a quarter.
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That really depends if they really want the Greek economy to turn around. I don't really see how that can happen under IMF/EU conditions. As I've pointed out, all it's done is cause the Greek economy to shrink drastically. How exactly that is supposed to enable Greece to pay its debts, I don't know and nor does the Greek goverment.
How do you feel about your taxes being used to subsidise the Greeks who are notoriously bad at paying their own taxes? Because this is what you are arguing for.
To be honest, I don't know how much of my taxes have gone to Greece, but I suspect not much. If the current Greek government had been in power at the start of the crisis they would never have accepted a bailout in the first place, so I don't see how the blame can be put on them. The current government was elected on the premise that they would end the harsh austerity measures demanded of them by the IMF/EU. It seems that they are doing their best to live up to that promise. Good on them. Now they will put it to the people again. Democracy in action.
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I could find you a Nobel prize winning economist who will argue you either side here and I could try and make either case myself but not sure it is the time. This seems to lay out a more important story for just now
https://www.byline.com/column/11/article/126
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To be honest, I don't know how much of my taxes have gone to Greece, but I suspect not much.
So far. But you are arguing for a lot more. Where do you think the IMF and the EU get all that money from that they have loaned to the Greeks? If the Greeks don't give it back, it is our loss.
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If you are looking for 'blame' the immediate crisis has obviously occurred because the Greek electorate were naive enough to believe that a bunch of Lefties could sort out a broken economy.
But the real problem is that Greece never met the criteria for Eurozone entry. Lots of people said so at the time, but those creating Euroland were so desperate to recruit members that they turned a blind eye to a lot of details (like the fact the the Greek government couldn't actually collect their taxes) and Greece joined anyway - so those who allowed Greek entry are the real culprits.
It's difficult to see a happy ending for Greece. My guess is that the Eurozone officials and creditors will just stand back until Greece gets a more sensible government.
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'Reverse Corleone' will become famous with this
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But the real problem is that Greece never met the criteria for Eurozone entry. Lots of people said so at the time, but those creating Euroland were so desperate to recruit members that they turned a blind eye to a lot of details (like the fact the the Greek government couldn't actually collect their taxes) and Greece joined anyway - so those who allowed Greek entry are the real culprits.
It's difficult to see a happy ending for Greece. My guess is that the Eurozone officials and creditors will just stand back until Greece gets a more sensible government.
LA, only three European economies met the convergence criteria for Eurozone entry back in 1998. They were Germany, Sweden and the UK (and, of course, the latter 2 weren't even planning to join the zone). In order to make the system work at all, these criteria had to be relaxed, but because France - a central element in the whole charade - was so far below the bar, the relaxation had to be dramatic, thus allowing Greece, Italy, Portugal and Ireland - all of which have had bail-outs since 2007 - in as well. As such, the Eurozone has long been an unstable economic powderkeg waiting for the right trigger to set it off.
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Greece has only itself to blame. It mismanaged its economy massively; low taxes: not enough money acquired from taxation; plus horrific levels of evasion, all unchecked; ridiculous pension arrangements, often amounting to 92% of finishing salary; overspending, multiplied by its entry into the EU, when borrowing became easier, and the Greek Government was allowed to borrow huge amounts, and then went on a spending spree: finishing up owing some £300 billion, far more debt than they could ever sustain. Then, when bailed out, and with creditors expecting their money back, entirely reasonably, they whine and squirm.. We could all do that, personally and on a national basis: borrow more than you can sustain, then balk about paying balk. Other counties, Spain, for example, must look on and think it'a one law for one, and one for the rest. Greece should be allowed to leave the Euro, and the EU, and make its own way.. You make your bed, you must lie on it. It would be better for them, in the long run, and for everyone else. To suggest they are being bullied is an absurdity: the IMF, and the ECB are fully entitled to insist on payments being made: they would be remiss to do otherwise. The Greeks have been given huge leeway: it's time to end it.
How simplistic and for the most part just not true. But if you think that 30-40 years of austerity is reasonable...
"Simplistic." Rubbish! What have I said that's not true? Please answer, rather than a blanket dismissal. How do you assess the situation any differently - and I doubt you actually can?
Brussels allowed the Greeks to join the EZ when they weren't qualified to do so - EU to blame here.
The EZ political project was an insane wet dream and was doomed to fail from the very start - EU to blame here too.
The EZ members broke the their own rules after only a year; Germany and France and did nothing to put it right - The big hitters are to blame here.
The EU deserves everything it gets because it was a failed project and ideology from the first; 1957, Treaty of Rome.
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The Greek Government seems to be blaming everyone but themselves, and previous Greek Governments for the mess they are in. From what I gather there has been mismanagement of their finances for many years.
And they're mostly right. The IMF, especially, is nothing more than a bully.
Don't be an idiot. The IMF wants Greece to pay its debts back on the terms that Greece agreed. How is wanting Greece to keep its side of the bargain bullying?
When you say Greece who do you mean? When did they agree with these terms you are talking about?
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That really depends if they really want the Greek economy to turn around. I don't really see how that can happen under IMF/EU conditions. As I've pointed out, all it's done is cause the Greek economy to shrink drastically. How exactly that is supposed to enable Greece to pay its debts, I don't know and nor does the Greek goverment.
How do you feel about your taxes being used to subsidise the Greeks who are notoriously bad at paying their own taxes? Because this is what you are arguing for.
To be honest, I don't know how much of my taxes have gone to Greece, but I suspect not much. If the current Greek government had been in power at the start of the crisis they would never have accepted a bailout in the first place, so I don't see how the blame can be put on them. The current government was elected on the premise that they would end the harsh austerity measures demanded of them by the IMF/EU. It seems that they are doing their best to live up to that promise. Good on them. Now they will put it to the people again. Democracy in action.
...and at least Syriza has a democratic mandate which is more than the Troika has.
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If you are looking for 'blame' the immediate crisis has obviously occurred because the Greek electorate were naive enough to believe that a bunch of Lefties could sort out a broken economy.
But the real problem is that Greece never met the criteria for Eurozone entry. Lots of people said so at the time, but those creating Euroland were so desperate to recruit members that they turned a blind eye to a lot of details (like the fact the the Greek government couldn't actually collect their taxes) and Greece joined anyway - so those who allowed Greek entry are the real culprits.
It's difficult to see a happy ending for Greece. My guess is that the Eurozone officials and creditors will just stand back until Greece gets a more sensible government.
You might find those Lefties are more shrewd than you think. ;) Just wait and see!!!
There is no time for the Eurogroup to wait for a 'better' government, the EZ is a busted flush.
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But the real problem is that Greece never met the criteria for Eurozone entry. Lots of people said so at the time, but those creating Euroland were so desperate to recruit members that they turned a blind eye to a lot of details (like the fact the the Greek government couldn't actually collect their taxes) and Greece joined anyway - so those who allowed Greek entry are the real culprits.
It's difficult to see a happy ending for Greece. My guess is that the Eurozone officials and creditors will just stand back until Greece gets a more sensible government.
LA, only three European economies met the convergence criteria for Eurozone entry back in 1998. They were Germany, Sweden and the UK (and, of course, the latter 2 weren't even planning to join the zone). In order to make the system work at all, these criteria had to be relaxed, but because France - a central element in the whole charade - was so far below the bar, the relaxation had to be dramatic, thus allowing Greece, Italy, Portugal and Ireland - all of which have had bail-outs since 2007 - in as well. As such, the Eurozone has long been an unstable economic powderkeg waiting for the right trigger to set it off.
...and then Greece had to have its books cooked by Goldman Sachs to get in even with that low bar; hence the total mess we see now.
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:o
Not my day today, I was thinking who is Grexit?
Who knows we might be next.
That would be impossible, Rose. We have never joined the group that use the Euro - aka the EuroZone - so we couldn't be next.
I suspect that the most likely likely candidate for that role will be found amongst Italy, Portugal and Ireland.
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...and then Greece had to have its books cooked by Goldman Sachs to get in even with that low bar; hence the total mess we see now.
Only Greece? :D
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:o
Not my day today, I was thinking who is Grexit?
Who knows we might be next.
That would be impossible, Rose. We have never joined the group that use the Euro - aka the EuroZone - so we couldn't be next.
I suspect that the most likely likely candidate for that role will be found amongst Italy, Portugal and Ireland.
And Spain.
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I suspect that the most likely likely candidate for that role will be found amongst Italy, Portugal and Ireland.
And Spain.
Thinking about it a bit more, Irelanmd sees to have had a very strong recovery - so replace Ireland with Spain - as you suggest.
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...and then Greece had to have its books cooked by Goldman Sachs to get in even with that low bar; hence the total mess we see now.
Only Greece? :D
I don't know about the others, but I am guessing you will be telling me that some of the others also had trouble reaching that low bar.
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If you are looking for 'blame' the immediate crisis has obviously occurred because the Greek electorate were naive enough to believe that a bunch of Lefties could sort out a broken economy.
But the real problem is that Greece never met the criteria for Eurozone entry. Lots of people said so at the time, but those creating Euroland were so desperate to recruit members that they turned a blind eye to a lot of details (like the fact the the Greek government couldn't actually collect their taxes) and Greece joined anyway - so those who allowed Greek entry are the real culprits.
It's difficult to see a happy ending for Greece. My guess is that the Eurozone officials and creditors will just stand back until Greece gets a more sensible government.
You might find those Lefties are more shrewd than you think. ;) Just wait and see!!!
There is no time for the Eurogroup to wait for a 'better' government, the EZ is a busted flush.
They are playing a game of brinkmanship, the stakes are high and they can't be allowed to win - or the others would jump on the bandwagon.
I'd say it isn't a good time to be a Greek.
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Brinkmanship? No, they're doing what they were elected to do: bring an end to tve unreasonably harsh austerity demanded by its creditors.
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Stiglitz on the referendum and the issues
http://tinyurl.com/porjduk
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Stiglitz on the referendum and the issues
http://tinyurl.com/porjduk
Good article.
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Brinkmanship? No, they're doing what they were elected to do: bring an end to tve unreasonably harsh austerity demanded by its creditors.
I'm not sure that simply concentrating on the events of the last 5-10 years is actually that helpful. Folk I know who have family over there have pointed out that for the last 30 or 40 years the Greeks have enjoyed one of the most generous retirement and pension packages in the whole of Europe - most retiring at about 50 - and many other perks. OK, this might be seen as the younger people feeling hard done by in that they can't retire that early - except that the story has been the same for 25+ years. In that sense, Greece have brought this upon themselves. The pieces on 'Post-World War 2' and 'late 20th century' in the wikipedia article - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_history_of_Greece_and_the_Greek_world makes for instructive reading.
Note the 'disastrous' as applied to their Civil War in the middle of the century.
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Paul Krugman
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/29/opinion/paul-krugman-greece-over-the-brink.html?_r=0
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Brinkmanship? No, they're doing what they were elected to do: bring an end to tve unreasonably harsh austerity demanded by its creditors.
I think most people would say that they promised the electorate the impossible - and sure enough, it's proved to be impossible.
Sure, the Greek electorate want loads of cushy public sector jobs with generous pensions - but their economy can't afford that now and in reality it never could.
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Brinkmanship? No, they're doing what they were elected to do: bring an end to tve unreasonably harsh austerity demanded by its creditors.
I think most people would say that they promised the electorate the impossible - and sure enough, it's proved to be impossible.
Sure, the Greek electorate want loads of cushy public sector jobs with generous pensions - but their economy can't afford that now and in reality it never could.
This is simply not true or at least you're painting a distorted picture. Here are some of the reforms the Greeks have implemented at the behest of EU/IMF and their consequences:
That Greece needs to adjust there is no doubt. The question, however, is not how much adjustment Greece needs to make. It is, rather, what kind of adjustment. If by ‘adjustment’ we mean fiscal consolidation, wage and pension cuts, and tax rate increases, it is clear we have done more of that than any other country in peacetime.
The public sector’s structural, or cyclically adjusted, fiscal deficit turned into a surplus on the back of a ‘world record beating’ 20% adjustment
Wages fell by 37%
Pensions were reduced by up to 48%
State employment diminished by 30%
Consumer spending was curtailed by 33%
Even the nation’s chronic current account deficit dropped by 16%.
No one can say that Greece has not adjusted to its new, post-2008, circumstances. But what we can say is that gigantic adjustment, whether necessary or not, has produced more problems than it solved:
Aggregate real GDP fell by 27% while nominal GDP continued to fall quarter-in-quarter-out for 18 quarters non-stop to this day
Unemployment skyrocketed to 27%
Undeclared labour reached 34%
Banks are labouring under non-performing loans that exceed 40% in value
Public debt has exceeded 180% of GDP
Young well-qualified people are abandoning Greece in droves
Poverty, hunger and energy deprivation have registered increases usually associated with a state at war
Investment in productive capacity has evaporated.
http://uk.businessinsider.com/full-greece-proposal-leaked-by-yanis-varoufakis-2015-6?r=US
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If you are looking for 'blame' the immediate crisis has obviously occurred because the Greek electorate were naive enough to believe that a bunch of Lefties could sort out a broken economy.
But the real problem is that Greece never met the criteria for Eurozone entry. Lots of people said so at the time, but those creating Euroland were so desperate to recruit members that they turned a blind eye to a lot of details (like the fact the the Greek government couldn't actually collect their taxes) and Greece joined anyway - so those who allowed Greek entry are the real culprits.
It's difficult to see a happy ending for Greece. My guess is that the Eurozone officials and creditors will just stand back until Greece gets a more sensible government.
You might find those Lefties are more shrewd than you think. ;) Just wait and see!!!
There is no time for the Eurogroup to wait for a 'better' government, the EZ is a busted flush.
They are playing a game of brinkmanship, the stakes are high and they can't be allowed to win - or the others would jump on the bandwagon.
I'd say it isn't a good time to be a Greek.
Which ever way you look at it it isn't good for Greece.
My hutch is that though Syriza got to power on a mandate of staying in the Eurozone I reckon they actually want to leave as they know staying would just be a grind to the bottom and staying there for Greece with this EU austerity attitude. Being out would be hard for a short while, but would mean at least they could avoid being at the bottom for ever in the EZ, and with some form of growth to follow this initial period being out of the EZ.
But they knew the Greek people wanted to stay in so they gave them what they wanted to hear with the plan that they knew the EU wouldn't budge on the austerity plan the Greek people didn't want. They then could say to the Greek people we were forced out by those nasty EU lot, getting what they want, which is to be out, and not taking the flak for taking them out. That's why I said they are more shrewd than some people think - they may play dumb but they are not.
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This is simply not true or at least you're painting a distorted picture.
If its a distorted picture its a distorted picture that many Greeks agree with, ad_o
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Stiglitz on the referendum and the issues
http://tinyurl.com/porjduk
Good article.
Yeah, good one and on the button.
The old Labour of Britain called the EU (the EEC at the time) a rich boys club, and that is exactly what it is. Some Unions still air this viewpoint. It has nothing to do with the people of Europe.
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The old Labour of Britain called the EU (the EEC at the time) a rich boys club, and that is exactly what it is. Some Unions still air this viewpoint. It has nothing to do with the people of Europe.
The problem with this claim is that 'the old Labour of Britain' were happy to argue for us to remain in the EU long before that party became Red Tories.
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The old Labour of Britain called the EU (the EEC at the time) a rich boys club, and that is exactly what it is. Some Unions still air this viewpoint. It has nothing to do with the people of Europe.
The problem with this claim is that 'the old Labour of Britain' were happy to argue for us to remain in the EU long before that party became Red Tories.
OK. The more wiser ones in the Labour of old had that viewpoint. You're right the EEC split Labour as the EU today has split the Tories.
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Brinkmanship? No, they're doing what they were elected to do: bring an end to tve unreasonably harsh austerity demanded by its creditors.
The Greek Government of the time entered into an agreement, to save their bacon, in effect. Because this is a new Government it goes not justify reneging on a commitment. They have been given huge leeway, but the immensity of their debt leaves little or no further room for leniency. They are asking for more money from their creditors to pay them some of the money owed to them! It is farce, and total economic unreality. It is hard on the Greek populace, but you still have to play by the rules. We do; Spain, Ireland, Italy, Portugal, all do; all of whom owe, but are attempting to honour their obligations.
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Brinkmanship? No, they're doing what they were elected to do: bring an end to tve unreasonably harsh austerity demanded by its creditors.
The Greek Government of the time entered into an agreement, to save their bacon, in effect. Because this is a new Government it goes not justify reneging on a commitment. They have been given huge leeway, but the immensity of their debt leaves little or no further room for leniency. They are asking for more money from their creditors to pay them some of the money owed to them! It is farce, and total economic unreality. It is hard on the Greek populace, but you still have to play by the rules. We do; Spain, Ireland, Italy, Portugal, all do; all of whom owe, but are attempting to honour their obligations.
Are you saying that never in the history of democracy has an incoming government not reversed what a previous government has done?
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Brinkmanship? No, they're doing what they were elected to do: bring an end to tve unreasonably harsh austerity demanded by its creditors.
The Greek Government of the time entered into an agreement, to save their bacon, in effect. Because this is a new Government it goes not justify reneging on a commitment. They have been given huge leeway, but the immensity of their debt leaves little or no further room for leniency. They are asking for more money from their creditors to pay them some of the money owed to them! It is farce, and total economic unreality. It is hard on the Greek populace, but you still have to play by the rules. We do; Spain, Ireland, Italy, Portugal, all do; all of whom owe, but are attempting to honour their obligations.
Are you saying that never in the history of democracy has an incoming government not reversed what a previous government has done?
Of course not. Bur this is somewht different. The Greeks belong to an organisation of supposedly equal partner.. To renege on your partners is pretty low: and then expect them to bail you out of your troubles to the tune of some 230 billion euros to date, and still asking for more takes the cake.
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Brinkmanship? No, they're doing what they were elected to do: bring an end to tve unreasonably harsh austerity demanded by its creditors.
The Greek Government of the time entered into an agreement, to save their bacon, in effect. Because this is a new Government it goes not justify reneging on a commitment. They have been given huge leeway, but the immensity of their debt leaves little or no further room for leniency. They are asking for more money from their creditors to pay them some of the money owed to them! It is farce, and total economic unreality. It is hard on the Greek populace, but you still have to play by the rules. We do; Spain, Ireland, Italy, Portugal, all do; all of whom owe, but are attempting to honour their obligations.
Are you saying that never in the history of democracy has an incoming government not reversed what a previous government has done?
Of course not. Bur this is somewht different. The Greeks belong to an organisation of supposedly equal partner.. To renege on your partners is pretty low: and then expect them to bail you out of your troubles to the tune of some 230 billion euros to date, and still asking for more takes the cake.
Brussels, the Troika, Eurogroup, whatever, don't give a damn about the Greek people or Greece all they are bothered about is keeping the Euro as one of the big boys; playing at the top of the financial game. The bailouts have been about bailing out the banks. 92% of the bailout monies that have been given to Greece have just passed through them like a train not stopping at a station and gone to the banks. That is what Brussels is concerned about. They will strip Greece the way vultures strip a carcase and will not shed one tear or lose their smile. The EU is about the project not the people just as the Soviet Union was about the fulfilment of the ideology not what the people needed. That's not democracy that's socialism, fascism.
Tsipras and his team know this and are looking for a way for Greece to grow and exit this vortex that is sucking them down to the very pits of hell. If that means reneging on their feudal masters then so be it. Partners? what a sick joke!!!
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Greece was allowed into the EU because they wanted to be in: they applied, they were not coerced. Having done so, they were expected to follow the rules, as equal partners. Nobody realised they were just out to make hay at the expanse o ftax-payers throughout the EU, by their excessive borrowing and wilful use of the loans. Now that the chicken is home to roost they are reneging on their responsibilities. They have had two bail-outs already, and now they seek a third. They have been given plenty of leeway, but have not put their house in order. What are the creditors supposed to do: let this go on and on, whilst Greece gets further and further into debt? That would be insane and unrealistic. I might add, that as contributors to the IMF, the UK has stumped up £12.5 billion so far to help Greece, and we actually owe more than they do. How do you feel about that, as a tax-payer? If, in the long run, Greece leaves the Euro, as seems likely, then they will turn to the EU for further assistance, As members, we will then be expected, with all the other members, to fund them again!
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Greece was allowed into the EU because they wanted to: they applied, they were not coerced. Having done so, they were expected to follow the rules, as equal partners. Nobody realised they were just out to make hay at the expanse o ftax-payers throughout the EU, by their excessive borrowing and wilful use of the loans. Now that the chicken is home to roost they are reneging on their responsibilities. They have had two bail-outs already, and now they seek a third. They have been given plenty of leeway, but have not put their house in order. What are the creditors supposed to do: let this go on and on, whilst Greece gets further and further into debt? That would be insane and unrealistic. I might add, that as contributors to the IMF, the UK has stumped up £12.5 billion so far to help Greece, and we actually owe more than they do. How do you feel about that, as a tax-payer? If, in the long run, Greece leaves the Euro, as seems likely, then They will turn to the EU for further assistance, As members, we will then be expected, with all the other members, to fund them again!
I refer you to Hope's post 46. The Euro should have never been undertaken in the first place.
Actually the sum we have associated with the Greek debt is 2 billion. Anyway the way the EU austerity/bailout plan works is that the bailout money is borrowed , from the banks by the EZ member states and put on their tax payers debt i.e. public government debt. Then around 92% of that money is used to pay the interest on the debt Greece owes the banks and lenders. (very little actually gets to the Greek people) It is a scam to bailout the banks. When the German people find out they have been buggered by their own 'mother' Merkel they will be riots, and the other countries citizens too.
In fact I believe the banks are only owed 5 billion now. Most of it is with the EZ citizens in some form or other and the ECB, which will eventually hit the people of the EU anyway.
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Greece was allowed into the EU because they wanted to: they applied, they were not coerced. Having done so, they were expected to follow the rules, as equal partners. Nobody realised they were just out to make hay at the expanse o ftax-payers throughout the EU, by their excessive borrowing and wilful use of the loans. Now that the chicken is home to roost they are reneging on their responsibilities. They have had two bail-outs already, and now they seek a third. They have been given plenty of leeway, but have not put their house in order. What are the creditors supposed to do: let this go on and on, whilst Greece gets further and further into debt? That would be insane and unrealistic. I might add, that as contributors to the IMF, the UK has stumped up £12.5 billion so far to help Greece, and we actually owe more than they do. How do you feel about that, as a tax-payer? If, in the long run, Greece leaves the Euro, as seems likely, then They will turn to the EU for further assistance, As members, we will then be expected, with all the other members, to fund them again!
I refer you to Hope's post 46. The Euro should have never been undertaken in the first place.
Actually the sum we have associated with the Greek debt is 2 billion. Anyway the way the EU austerity/bailout plan works is that the bailout money is borrowed , from the banks by the EZ member states and put on their tax payers debt i.e. public government debt. Then around 92% of that money is used to pay the interest on the debt Greece owes the banks and lenders. (very little actually gets to the Greek people) It is a scam to bailout the banks. When the German people find out they have been buggered by their own 'mother' Merkel they will be riots, and the other countries citizens too.
In fact I believe the banks are only owed 5 billion now. Most of it is with the EZ citizens in some form or other and the ECB, which will eventually hit the people of the EU anyway.
Incorrect: the total British figure supporting the Eurozone is £12.5 billion. That amounts to £500 per home here! How do you feel about that? And they want more! If it comes to EU bail-outs, then more will be expected from us - and we have burgeoning numbers of food banks, a huge welfare cut in the offing, and we owed more than the Greeks in the first place.! Seems bizarre to let all this go on.
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Greece was allowed into the EU because they wanted to: they applied, they were not coerced. Having done so, they were expected to follow the rules, as equal partners. Nobody realised they were just out to make hay at the expanse o ftax-payers throughout the EU, by their excessive borrowing and wilful use of the loans. Now that the chicken is home to roost they are reneging on their responsibilities. They have had two bail-outs already, and now they seek a third. They have been given plenty of leeway, but have not put their house in order. What are the creditors supposed to do: let this go on and on, whilst Greece gets further and further into debt? That would be insane and unrealistic. I might add, that as contributors to the IMF, the UK has stumped up £12.5 billion so far to help Greece, and we actually owe more than they do. How do you feel about that, as a tax-payer? If, in the long run, Greece leaves the Euro, as seems likely, then They will turn to the EU for further assistance, As members, we will then be expected, with all the other members, to fund them again!
I refer you to Hope's post 46. The Euro should have never been undertaken in the first place.
Actually the sum we have associated with the Greek debt is 2 billion. Anyway the way the EU austerity/bailout plan works is that the bailout money is borrowed , from the banks by the EZ member states and put on their tax payers debt i.e. public government debt. Then around 92% of that money is used to pay the interest on the debt Greece owes the banks and lenders. (very little actually gets to the Greek people) It is a scam to bailout the banks. When the German people find out they have been buggered by their own 'mother' Merkel they will be riots, and the other countries citizens too.
In fact I believe the banks are only owed 5 billion now. Most of it is with the EZ citizens in some form or other and the ECB, which will eventually hit the people of the EU anyway.
Incorrect: the total British figure supporting the Eurozone is £12.5 billion. That amounts to £500 per home here! How do you feel about that? And they want more! If it comes to EU bail-outs, then more will be expected from us - and we have burgeoning numbers of food banks, a huge welfare cut in the offing, and we owed more than the Greeks in the first place.! Seems bizarre to let all this go on.
I don't know where you are getting your figure from but any monies we give to the IMF does not go on our structural debt, and in theory the IMF has to pay us back regardless.
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Well done Greece! You had the guts to vote "no".
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Well done Greece! You had the guts to vote "no".
The trouble is they were not told clearly what the consequences might be, though to be fair, I don't think anyone knows exactly. The only sure thing is that Greece owes a massive debt, some 230 billion euros, and one way or another, it has to be paid back. Whatever happens, whether they stay in the Eurozone or not, they face years of austerity, and their debt is, of course, increasing daily. Will the creditors give them some slack, or just insist on the original deal being adhered to? Again, what ever new deal may, or may not be struck, the hapless Greeks urgently need a new bail-out deal: so the debt increases further, and significantly. Greece is in the most dire straits, and will be for decades, possibly.
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Well done Greece! You had the guts to vote "no".
Oh very well done, ::) now they are probably up the creek without a paddle, and they might find themselves in a much worse mess than they are now!
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Well the current estimate is that Greece needs a bailout of around 370 billion.
Here is a wee list of bailouts that the banks had no problem getting the money from us, the tax payer.
Citigroup - 2.513 trillion.
Morgan Stanley - 2.041 trillion.
Merrill Lynch - 1.949 trillion.
Bank of America - 1.344 trillion.
Barclays PLC - 868 billion.
Bear Sterns - 853 billion.
Goldman Sachs - 814 billion.
Royal Bank of Scotland - 541 billion.
JP Morgan Chase - 391 billion.
As you can see all these companies bailouts are higher than the amount Greece needs.
Surely the question should be - why are any one of these companies more important than a whole country?
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Well the current estimate is that Greece needs a bailout of around 370 billion.
Here is a wee list of bailouts that the banks had no problem getting the money from us, the tax payer.
Citigroup - 2.513 trillion.
Morgan Stanley - 2.041 trillion.
Merrill Lynch - 1.949 trillion.
Bank of America - 1.344 trillion.
Barclays PLC - 868 billion.
Bear Sterns - 853 billion.
Goldman Sachs - 814 billion.
Royal Bank of Scotland - 541 billion.
JP Morgan Chase - 391 billion.
As you can see all these companies bailouts are higher than the amount Greece needs.
Surely the question should be - why are any one of these companies more important than a whole country?
Can they pay it back?
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Have the banks we bail out?
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The union has a whole has to accept some of the responsibility for this happening.
I dare say it won't be last time it happens to a country whom the tourist in the past found a cheap holiday and more value for money.
The EU had to have foreseen this problem.
It is a joke that they pretend they did not expect it.
So does Germany play a prominent part or not? That is the question I see at this point...
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Well the current estimate is that Greece needs a bailout of around 370 billion.
Here is a wee list of bailouts that the banks had no problem getting the money from us, the tax payer.
Citigroup - 2.513 trillion.
Morgan Stanley - 2.041 trillion.
Merrill Lynch - 1.949 trillion.
Bank of America - 1.344 trillion.
Barclays PLC - 868 billion.
Bear Sterns - 853 billion.
Goldman Sachs - 814 billion.
Royal Bank of Scotland - 541 billion.
JP Morgan Chase - 391 billion.
As you can see all these companies bailouts are higher than the amount Greece needs.
Surely the question should be - why are any one of these companies more important than a whole country?
Because if they fail there could be another Recession, as there was with the failure of Lehman Brothers, which caused the great Recession in 2008. If Greece goes bankrupt, it can be absorbed by the EU, and indeed world-wide. It would be messy, but not as dangerous as banks going bust.
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The union has a whole has to accept some of the responsibility for this happening.
I dare say it won't be last time it happens to a country whom the tourist in the past found a cheap holiday and more value for money.
The EU had to have foreseen this problem.
It is a joke that they pretend they did not expect it.
So does Germany play a prominent part or not? That is the question I see at this point...
Perhaps more importantly Sass, the Greeks have to accept responsibility for their predicament. Listening to some of the commentators and interviewees on TV there seems to be an unwillingness to admit that they have been on the economic rack since long before the Euro was even thought of.
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Well done Greece! You had the guts to vote "no".
The trouble is they were not told clearly what the consequences might be, though to be fair, I don't think anyone knows exactly. The only sure thing is that Greece owes a massive debt, some 230 billion euros, and one way or another, it has to be paid back. Whatever happens, whether they stay in the Eurozone or not, they face years of austerity, and their debt is, of course, increasing daily. Will the creditors give them some slack, or just insist on the original deal being adhered to? Again, what ever new deal may, or may not be struck, the hapless Greeks urgently need a new bail-out deal: so the debt increases further, and significantly. Greece is in the most dire straits, and will be for decades, possibly.
No Basher, if they leave the EZ they can default and devalue. And though this will be very painful in the short run they will be able to get to something akin to growth in the long run. This is better than being in the EZ where they will fester for decades on a flawed EU project plan geared to keep this project afloat.
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Well the current estimate is that Greece needs a bailout of around 370 billion.
Here is a wee list of bailouts that the banks had no problem getting the money from us, the tax payer.
Citigroup - 2.513 trillion.
Morgan Stanley - 2.041 trillion.
Merrill Lynch - 1.949 trillion.
Bank of America - 1.344 trillion.
Barclays PLC - 868 billion.
Bear Sterns - 853 billion.
Goldman Sachs - 814 billion.
Royal Bank of Scotland - 541 billion.
JP Morgan Chase - 391 billion.
As you can see all these companies bailouts are higher than the amount Greece needs.
Surely the question should be - why are any one of these companies more important than a whole country?
Don't forget the Banks benefit hand outs in the form of free money as QE.(£375 billion, €1 trillion and I'm not sure of the $ but it could be 15 trillion?) We can't have those poor bankers suffering because of the huge debts they have stupidly and irresponsible got on their books!!!
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Well the current estimate is that Greece needs a bailout of around 370 billion.
Here is a wee list of bailouts that the banks had no problem getting the money from us, the tax payer.
Citigroup - 2.513 trillion.
Morgan Stanley - 2.041 trillion.
Merrill Lynch - 1.949 trillion.
Bank of America - 1.344 trillion.
Barclays PLC - 868 billion.
Bear Sterns - 853 billion.
Goldman Sachs - 814 billion.
Royal Bank of Scotland - 541 billion.
JP Morgan Chase - 391 billion.
As you can see all these companies bailouts are higher than the amount Greece needs.
Surely the question should be - why are any one of these companies more important than a whole country?
Because if they fail there could be another Recession, as there was with the failure of Lehman Brothers, which caused the great Recession in 2008. If Greece goes bankrupt, it can be absorbed by the EU, and indeed world-wide. It would be messy, but not as dangerous as banks going bust.
So it is ok for the banks to put a gun to our heads and say pay up or else? Remember banks are private firms who should be susceptible to market forces. If they aren't competitive and profitable they should go bankrupt. If they mess up and make bad deals they should go under!!!
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I think that Greece will either get some kind of debt relief, or will leave the euro. I can't see any other solution - just piling on more austerity is politically impossible, and could result in a fascist government or a military take-over.
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I think that Greece will either get some kind of debt relief, or will leave the euro. I can't see any other solution - just piling on more austerity is politically impossible, and could result in a fascist government or a military take-over.
if they get debt relief then everyone will be on the bandwagon - if that happens it will be the end of the EURO and a major blow to the EU generally.
Sadly, the only option that makes sense for the ECB is for the Greeks to be seen to suffer for breaking the rules.
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I think that Greece will either get some kind of debt relief, or will leave the euro. I can't see any other solution - just piling on more austerity is politically impossible, and could result in a fascist government or a military take-over.
if they get debt relief then everyone will be on the bandwagon - if that happens it will be the end of the EURO and a major blow to the EU generally.
Sadly, the only option that makes sense for the ECB is for the Greeks to be seen to suffer for breaking the rules.
But the EU's heartless cruelty has been exposed, which is what I think was Tsipras' plan all long, and this will get the other leftie parties of Spain and Portugal to come out in force in October and November when they have their elections. By dragging out the negotiations and pushing things to the edge, promoting democracy as the peoples' will and annoying the creditors so that they show their real colours (which they do without realising how it is being perceived due to their arrogance and hubris for their project) the Eurogroup lot have dug themselves into a big hole where their nasty selfish anti-democracy motives have been revealed.
Tsipras has said that he wants to stay in the EU and sees it as the right place to be but his vision for what it should be and what it is now are poles apart and by bringing the people onto his side throughout most of Europe (even the French nationals and UKIP approved of the NO vote) he could just about bring about a wholesale change to the EU's milieu and format. His strongest card is democracy as the people understand and like that.
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Of course, the EU was meant to transcend nation states, and was meant to work as a community working together. But as soon as crisis has struck one member, the others have started the blame game, and the punishment game, the very thing which the EU was supposed to stop!
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Well the current estimate is that Greece needs a bailout of around 370 billion.
Here is a wee list of bailouts that the banks had no problem getting the money from us, the tax payer.
Citigroup - 2.513 trillion.
Morgan Stanley - 2.041 trillion.
Merrill Lynch - 1.949 trillion.
Bank of America - 1.344 trillion.
Barclays PLC - 868 billion.
Bear Sterns - 853 billion.
Goldman Sachs - 814 billion.
Royal Bank of Scotland - 541 billion.
JP Morgan Chase - 391 billion.
As you can see all these companies bailouts are higher than the amount Greece needs.
Surely the question should be - why are any one of these companies more important than a whole country?
Because if they fail there could be another Recession, as there was with the failure of Lehman Brothers, which caused the great Recession in 2008. If Greece goes bankrupt, it can be absorbed by the EU, and indeed world-wide. It would be messy, but not as dangerous as banks going bust.
So it is ok for the banks to put a gun to our heads and say pay up or else? Remember banks are private firms who should be susceptible to market forces. If they aren't competitive and profitable they should go bankrupt. If they mess up and make bad deals they should go under!!!
Unfortunately, banks fuel the economy, and they are essential to its healthy running. That's why we had to bail them out in 2008, and why we cannot allow them to fail now.
They may be nominally private firms, but since the Recession, they are in hoc to the tax-payer, and we have majority shares in RBS, and thus also Lloyds, Bradford & Bingley, and Northern Rock,; so we cannot allow them to go under for that reason, too. It may not be palatable, but the banks and bankers get the last laugh.
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I think that Greece will either get some kind of debt relief, or will leave the euro. I can't see any other solution - just piling on more austerity is politically impossible, and could result in a fascist government or a military take-over.
if they get debt relief then everyone will be on the bandwagon - if that happens it will be the end of the EURO and a major blow to the EU generally.
Sadly, the only option that makes sense for the ECB is for the Greeks to be seen to suffer for breaking the rules.
But the EU's heartless cruelty has been exposed, which is what I think was Tsipras' plan all long, and this will get the other leftie parties of Spain and Portugal to come out in force in October and November when they have their elections. By dragging out the negotiations and pushing things to the edge, promoting democracy as the peoples' will and annoying the creditors so that they show their real colours (which they do without realising how it is being perceived due to their arrogance and hubris for their project) the Eurogroup lot have dug themselves into a big hole where their nasty selfish anti-democracy motives have been revealed.
Tsipras has said that he wants to stay in the EU and sees it as the right place to be but his vision for what it should be and what it is now are poles apart and by bringing the people onto his side throughout most of Europe (even the French nationals and UKIP approved of the NO vote) he could just about bring about a wholesale change to the EU's milieu and format. His strongest card is democracy as the people understand and like that.
But it can't happen (if the system is to survive) If you max-out on your credit card then tell your bank that you can't pay - what s going to happen - and in the unlikely event that your bank 'lets you off' - what is going to happen to the bank?
(UPIP obvously approve of the NO vote - they just want the whole project to fail - the French just like a bit of anarchy -eg. Calais)
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Merkel is having kittens because the euro was meant to be her heritage, and it's at risk now. And of course, German debt was given relief or in fact cancelled in the 50s, oh but that was different, and in any case, Germany is in control now.
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I think that Greece will either get some kind of debt relief, or will leave the euro. I can't see any other solution - just piling on more austerity is politically impossible, and could result in a fascist government or a military take-over.
if they get debt relief then everyone will be on the bandwagon - if that happens it will be the end of the EURO and a major blow to the EU generally.
Sadly, the only option that makes sense for the ECB is for the Greeks to be seen to suffer for breaking the rules.
But the EU's heartless cruelty has been exposed, which is what I think was Tsipras' plan all long, and this will get the other leftie parties of Spain and Portugal to come out in force in October and November when they have their elections. By dragging out the negotiations and pushing things to the edge, promoting democracy as the peoples' will and annoying the creditors so that they show their real colours (which they do without realising how it is being perceived due to their arrogance and hubris for their project) the Eurogroup lot have dug themselves into a big hole where their nasty selfish anti-democracy motives have been revealed.
Tsipras has said that he wants to stay in the EU and sees it as the right place to be but his vision for what it should be and what it is now are poles apart and by bringing the people onto his side throughout most of Europe (even the French nationals and UKIP approved of the NO vote) he could just about bring about a wholesale change to the EU's milieu and format. His strongest card is democracy as the people understand and like that.
Well, the troika seem to want to control the Greek state now, and were angling to get rid of the Tsipras govt. Whatever the outcome with Greece, I think the EU is being tarnished by this whole episode - I should think that the Euroskeptics can't believe their luck. Merkel is their best recruiting sergeant.
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I think that Greece will either get some kind of debt relief, or will leave the euro. I can't see any other solution - just piling on more austerity is politically impossible, and could result in a fascist government or a military take-over.
if they get debt relief then everyone will be on the bandwagon - if that happens it will be the end of the EURO and a major blow to the EU generally.
Sadly, the only option that makes sense for the ECB is for the Greeks to be seen to suffer for breaking the rules.
But the EU's heartless cruelty has been exposed, which is what I think was Tsipras' plan all long, and this will get the other leftie parties of Spain and Portugal to come out in force in October and November when they have their elections. By dragging out the negotiations and pushing things to the edge, promoting democracy as the peoples' will and annoying the creditors so that they show their real colours (which they do without realising how it is being perceived due to their arrogance and hubris for their project) the Eurogroup lot have dug themselves into a big hole where their nasty selfish anti-democracy motives have been revealed.
Tsipras has said that he wants to stay in the EU and sees it as the right place to be but his vision for what it should be and what it is now are poles apart and by bringing the people onto his side throughout most of Europe (even the French nationals and UKIP approved of the NO vote) he could just about bring about a wholesale change to the EU's milieu and format. His strongest card is democracy as the people understand and like that.
Well, the troika seem to want to control the Greek state now, and were angling to get rid of the Tsipras govt. Whatever the outcome with Greece, I think the EU is being tarnished by this whole episode - I should think that the Euroskeptics can't believe their luck. Merkel is their best recruiting sergeant.
Yes, every cloud has a silver lining. If all this mess precipitates our exit from Europe, then so much the better.
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I don't think the mood music in the UK is to leave the EU right now; in fact, a common sentiment towards Greece right now is vindictiveness, which is rather ironic, since the EU is meant to work collectively for each other. But if Greece is punished even more, and we have scenes of mass starvation, I'm not sure what the reaction would be. More blame for Greece, sure, but I wonder about the feelings towards Germany and their banks. Scary stuff, really.
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I don't think the mood music in the UK is to leave the EU right now; in fact, a common sentiment towards Greece right now is vindictiveness, which is rather ironic, since the EU is meant to work collectively for each other. But if Greece is punished even more, and we have scenes of mass starvation, I'm not sure what the reaction would be. More blame for Greece, sure, but I wonder about the feelings towards Germany and their banks. Scary stuff, really.
This country is well able to look after itself, without being at the beck and call of Europe, and the Germans and French, in particular, anybody else, for that matter. Economically, we would be fine; and politically much better placed.
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Well the current estimate is that Greece needs a bailout of around 370 billion.
Here is a wee list of bailouts that the banks had no problem getting the money from us, the tax payer.
Citigroup - 2.513 trillion.
Morgan Stanley - 2.041 trillion.
Merrill Lynch - 1.949 trillion.
Bank of America - 1.344 trillion.
Barclays PLC - 868 billion.
Bear Sterns - 853 billion.
Goldman Sachs - 814 billion.
Royal Bank of Scotland - 541 billion.
JP Morgan Chase - 391 billion.
As you can see all these companies bailouts are higher than the amount Greece needs.
Surely the question should be - why are any one of these companies more important than a whole country?
Because if they fail there could be another Recession, as there was with the failure of Lehman Brothers, which caused the great Recession in 2008. If Greece goes bankrupt, it can be absorbed by the EU, and indeed world-wide. It would be messy, but not as dangerous as banks going bust.
So it is ok for the banks to put a gun to our heads and say pay up or else? Remember banks are private firms who should be susceptible to market forces. If they aren't competitive and profitable they should go bankrupt. If they mess up and make bad deals they should go under!!!
Unfortunately, banks fuel the economy, and they are essential to its healthy running. That's why we had to bail them out in 2008, and why we cannot allow them to fail now.
Our health? They are the ones who made us 'ill' you dipstick!!! They fucked things up. And they don't fuel our economy either!!!
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Well the current estimate is that Greece needs a bailout of around 370 billion.
Here is a wee list of bailouts that the banks had no problem getting the money from us, the tax payer.
Citigroup - 2.513 trillion.
Morgan Stanley - 2.041 trillion.
Merrill Lynch - 1.949 trillion.
Bank of America - 1.344 trillion.
Barclays PLC - 868 billion.
Bear Sterns - 853 billion.
Goldman Sachs - 814 billion.
Royal Bank of Scotland - 541 billion.
JP Morgan Chase - 391 billion.
As you can see all these companies bailouts are higher than the amount Greece needs.
Surely the question should be - why are any one of these companies more important than a whole country?
Because if they fail there could be another Recession, as there was with the failure of Lehman Brothers, which caused the great Recession in 2008. If Greece goes bankrupt, it can be absorbed by the EU, and indeed world-wide. It would be messy, but not as dangerous as banks going bust.
So it is ok for the banks to put a gun to our heads and say pay up or else? Remember banks are private firms who should be susceptible to market forces. If they aren't competitive and profitable they should go bankrupt. If they mess up and make bad deals they should go under!!!
Unfortunately, banks fuel the economy, and they are essential to its healthy running. That's why we had to bail them out in 2008, and why we cannot allow them to fail now.
Our health? They are the ones who made us 'ill' you dipstick!!! They fucked things up. And they don't fuel our economy either!!!
Are you a complete economic ignoramus? Yes, the banks did cause the mess, but that doesn't mean they are not essential to any economy. And yes, they do fuel our, and every other, economy.
Try and control your foul language.
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I think that Greece will either get some kind of debt relief, or will leave the euro. I can't see any other solution - just piling on more austerity is politically impossible, and could result in a fascist government or a military take-over.
if they get debt relief then everyone will be on the bandwagon - if that happens it will be the end of the EURO and a major blow to the EU generally.
Sadly, the only option that makes sense for the ECB is for the Greeks to be seen to suffer for breaking the rules.
But the EU's heartless cruelty has been exposed, which is what I think was Tsipras' plan all long, and this will get the other leftie parties of Spain and Portugal to come out in force in October and November when they have their elections. By dragging out the negotiations and pushing things to the edge, promoting democracy as the peoples' will and annoying the creditors so that they show their real colours (which they do without realising how it is being perceived due to their arrogance and hubris for their project) the Eurogroup lot have dug themselves into a big hole where their nasty selfish anti-democracy motives have been revealed.
Tsipras has said that he wants to stay in the EU and sees it as the right place to be but his vision for what it should be and what it is now are poles apart and by bringing the people onto his side throughout most of Europe (even the French nationals and UKIP approved of the NO vote) he could just about bring about a wholesale change to the EU's milieu and format. His strongest card is democracy as the people understand and like that.
But it can't happen (if the system is to survive) If you max-out on your credit card then tell your bank that you can't pay - what s going to happen - and in the unlikely event that your bank 'lets you off' - what is going to happen to the bank?
(UPIP obvously approve of the NO vote - they just want the whole project to fail - the French just like a bit of anarchy -eg. Calais)
All this mess has occurred because the banks had no moral hazard. Private profits or public debt. If they had then they would have done some due diligence and not throw the money about. But they knew come what may they would get bailout. They should pay for being so greedy and so stupid!!! In other words by should go bust.
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Well the current estimate is that Greece needs a bailout of around 370 billion.
Here is a wee list of bailouts that the banks had no problem getting the money from us, the tax payer.
Citigroup - 2.513 trillion.
Morgan Stanley - 2.041 trillion.
Merrill Lynch - 1.949 trillion.
Bank of America - 1.344 trillion.
Barclays PLC - 868 billion.
Bear Sterns - 853 billion.
Goldman Sachs - 814 billion.
Royal Bank of Scotland - 541 billion.
JP Morgan Chase - 391 billion.
As you can see all these companies bailouts are higher than the amount Greece needs.
Surely the question should be - why are any one of these companies more important than a whole country?
Because if they fail there could be another Recession, as there was with the failure of Lehman Brothers, which caused the great Recession in 2008. If Greece goes bankrupt, it can be absorbed by the EU, and indeed world-wide. It would be messy, but not as dangerous as banks going bust.
So it is ok for the banks to put a gun to our heads and say pay up or else? Remember banks are private firms who should be susceptible to market forces. If they aren't competitive and profitable they should go bankrupt. If they mess up and make bad deals they should go under!!!
Unfortunately, banks fuel the economy, and they are essential to its healthy running. That's why we had to bail them out in 2008, and why we cannot allow them to fail now.
Our health? They are the ones who made us 'ill' you dipstick!!! They fucked things up. And they don't fuel our economy either!!!
Are you a complete economic ignoramus? Yes, the banks did cause the mess, but that doesn't mean they are not essential to any economy. And yes, they do fuel our, and every other, economy.
Try and control your foul language.
No, you're the economic dumbass. There are ways to handle the collapse of the fiat money banking system; basically debt is an illusion. Remove the banks and the debt just disappears...
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Well the current estimate is that Greece needs a bailout of around 370 billion.
Here is a wee list of bailouts that the banks had no problem getting the money from us, the tax payer.
Citigroup - 2.513 trillion.
Morgan Stanley - 2.041 trillion.
Merrill Lynch - 1.949 trillion.
Bank of America - 1.344 trillion.
Barclays PLC - 868 billion.
Bear Sterns - 853 billion.
Goldman Sachs - 814 billion.
Royal Bank of Scotland - 541 billion.
JP Morgan Chase - 391 billion.
As you can see all these companies bailouts are higher than the amount Greece needs.
Surely the question should be - why are any one of these companies more important than a whole country?
Because if they fail there could be another Recession, as there was with the failure of Lehman Brothers, which caused the great Recession in 2008. If Greece goes bankrupt, it can be absorbed by the EU, and indeed world-wide. It would be messy, but not as dangerous as banks going bust.
So it is ok for the banks to put a gun to our heads and say pay up or else? Remember banks are private firms who should be susceptible to market forces. If they aren't competitive and profitable they should go bankrupt. If they mess up and make bad deals they should go under!!!
Unfortunately, banks fuel the economy, and they are essential to its healthy running. That's why we had to bail them out in 2008, and why we cannot allow them to fail now.
Our health? They are the ones who made us 'ill' you dipstick!!! They fucked things up. And they don't fuel our economy either!!!
Are you a complete economic ignoramus? Yes, the banks did cause the mess, but that doesn't mean they are not essential to any economy. And yes, they do fuel our, and every other, economy.
Try and control your foul language.
No, you're the economic dumbass. There are ways to handle the collapse of the fiat money banking system; basically debt is an illusion. Remove the banks and the debt just disappears...
You are economically illiterate.
Conventional wisdom suggests banks must start lending to firms before an economy can move out of recession.
In simple terms, so you can understand, refinanced firms expand output and hire more staff, who in turn spend more money in the economy, boosting demand – all of which cements a virtuous circle; that's how it works. Where would firms get their cash flow but from banks? Answer that. Orthodox economics insists you need the financial cycle to kick-start the economic cycle. Do you follow that? Do some reading.
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Remove the banks and the debt just disappears...
Where are you going to borrow money to buy a new house? Or start a business?
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Merkel is having kittens because the euro was meant to be her heritage, and it's at risk now. And of course, German debt was given relief or in fact cancelled in the 50s, oh but that was different, and in any case, Germany is in control now.
But the more recent history is that the Germans made great sacrifices to sort out the East. That was difficult enough but the Greeks won't even play by the rules.
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Interesting to hear this morning that, whilst one can technically take 60 Euros out of the ATMs a day, in practice that has been reduced to 50, because banks have run out of 10 and 20 Euro notes and ATMs are now dishing out 50 Euo notes only. My wife asked how banks are physically running out of such notes. Is it because, being closed, the banks aren't being able to replenish their supplies from monies being paid in, by shopkeepers, for instance?
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Interesting to hear this morning that, whilst one can technically take 60 Euros out of the ATMs a day, in practice that has been reduced to 50, because banks have run out of 10 and 20 Euro notes and ATMs are now dishing out 50 Euo notes only. My wife asked how banks are physically running out of such notes. Is it because, being closed, the banks aren't being able to replenish their supplies from monies being paid in, by shopkeepers, for instance?
I'd like to bet that even when they open, there will be precious few people paying money in!
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but the Greeks won't even play by the rules.
That's not entirely fair. The Greeks instituted massive cuts to government spending and if the economy hadn't also crashed, they would now be running a healthy surplus.
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Meanwhile...
http://tinyurl.com/qx2tuph
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"Remove the banks and the debt just disappears..." That's a funny one.
Who's going to lend a dime to a stunted country that thinks debt is an illusion that can just disappear by removing the ones that lent you money in the first place?
Oh ya, all those people stupid enough to keep their money under their beds.
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Well the current estimate is that Greece needs a bailout of around 370 billion.
Here is a wee list of bailouts that the banks had no problem getting the money from us, the tax payer.
Citigroup - 2.513 trillion.
Morgan Stanley - 2.041 trillion.
Merrill Lynch - 1.949 trillion.
Bank of America - 1.344 trillion.
Barclays PLC - 868 billion.
Bear Sterns - 853 billion.
Goldman Sachs - 814 billion.
Royal Bank of Scotland - 541 billion.
JP Morgan Chase - 391 billion.
As you can see all these companies bailouts are higher than the amount Greece needs.
Surely the question should be - why are any one of these companies more important than a whole country?
Because if they fail there could be another Recession, as there was with the failure of Lehman Brothers, which caused the great Recession in 2008. If Greece goes bankrupt, it can be absorbed by the EU, and indeed world-wide. It would be messy, but not as dangerous as banks going bust.
So it is ok for the banks to put a gun to our heads and say pay up or else? Remember banks are private firms who should be susceptible to market forces. If they aren't competitive and profitable they should go bankrupt. If they mess up and make bad deals they should go under!!!
Unfortunately, banks fuel the economy, and they are essential to its healthy running. That's why we had to bail them out in 2008, and why we cannot allow them to fail now.
Our health? They are the ones who made us 'ill' you dipstick!!! They fucked things up. And they don't fuel our economy either!!!
Are you a complete economic ignoramus? Yes, the banks did cause the mess, but that doesn't mean they are not essential to any economy. And yes, they do fuel our, and every other, economy.
Try and control your foul language.
No, you're the economic dumbass. There are ways to handle the collapse of the fiat money banking system; basically debt is an illusion. Remove the banks and the debt just disappears...
You are economically illiterate.
Conventional wisdom suggests banks must start lending to firms before an economy can move out of recession.
In simple terms, so you can understand, refinanced firms expand output and hire more staff, who in turn spend more money in the economy, boosting demand – all of which cements a virtuous circle; that's how it works. Where would firms get their cash flow but from banks? Answer that. Orthodox economics insists you need the financial cycle to kick-start the economic cycle. Do you follow that? Do some reading.
But that is not what is happening anymore. The banks have no need to lend or for depositors because of the free money of QE. Why would they risk lending money out when they can make a sure buck betting in the shadow banking arena? And when it crashes we are the muggins who payoff there stupidity.
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Remove the banks and the debt just disappears...
Where are you going to borrow money to buy a new house? Or start a business?
A building Society. ;D
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"Remove the banks and the debt just disappears..." That's a funny one.
Who's going to lend a dime to a stunted country that thinks debt is an illusion that can just disappear by removing the ones that lent you money in the first place?
Oh ya, all those people stupid enough to keep their money under their beds.
I was talking globally.
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So if you make the banks disappear, of course you can't expect to snatch their money in the process? Or do you think you can manage to pull that off comrade?
Well I'm I afraid your utopia will never materialize Jack. When has the world ever acted together and for such a silly proposal? I would get better financial advice from a monkey on a rock. Until I find a monkey on a rock I will stick with my investment banker at the bank where I have been a client for 40 years.
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So if you make the banks disappear, of course you can't expect to snatch their money in the process? Or do you think you can manage to pull that off comrade?
Well I'm I afraid your utopia will never materialize Jack. When has the world ever acted together and for such a silly proposal? I would get better financial advice from a monkey on a rock. Until I find a monkey on a rock I will stick with my investment banker at the bank where I have been a client for 40 years.
Move to Gibraltar
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but the Greeks won't even play by the rules.
That's not entirely fair. The Greeks instituted massive cuts to government spending and if the economy hadn't also crashed, they would now be running a healthy surplus.
Yes was probably true, the original measures were starting to work - until they elected a Loony Left government.
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but the Greeks won't even play by the rules.
That's not entirely fair. The Greeks instituted massive cuts to government spending and if the economy hadn't also crashed, they would now be running a healthy surplus.
Yes was probably true, the original measures were starting to work - until they elected a Loony Left government.
It was precisely those measures, being too harsh to start with, which caused the economy to crash even further. You don't need to be an economist to realise that the overly harsh terms demanded by Greek's creditors is no way to enable Greece pay off its debts. "Loony Left government". Ha! More like loony neo-liberal creditors.
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but the Greeks won't even play by the rules.
That's not entirely fair. The Greeks instituted massive cuts to government spending and if the economy hadn't also crashed, they would now be running a healthy surplus.
Yes was probably true, the original measures were starting to work - until they elected a Loony Left government.
It was precisely those measures, being too harsh to start with, which caused the economy to crash even further. You don't need to be an economist to realise that the overly harsh terms demanded by Greek's creditors is no way to enable Greece pay off its debts. "Loony Left government". Ha! More like loony neo-liberal creditors.
And it,s all going so well I understand ::)
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It was precisely those measures, being too harsh to start with, which caused the economy to crash even further. You don't need to be an economist to realise that the overly harsh terms demanded by Greek's creditors is no way to enable Greece pay off its debts. "Loony Left government". Ha! More like loony neo-liberal creditors.
ad_o, the Greek economy has been close to the edge for far longer than the Eurozone has been around, and whilst I'd agree that by pushing them into the Eurozone the EU has probably has done irreparable damage to the Greek economy, the Greeks have to take at least some responsibility for their situation. They enjoyed one of the most generous welfare and pension regime in the Western world prior to the arrival of the Euro.
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but the Greeks won't even play by the rules.
That's not entirely fair. The Greeks instituted massive cuts to government spending and if the economy hadn't also crashed, they would now be running a healthy surplus.
Yes was probably true, the original measures were starting to work - until they elected a Loony Left government.
It was precisely those measures, being too harsh to start with, which caused the economy to crash even further. You don't need to be an economist to realise that the overly harsh terms demanded by Greek's creditors is no way to enable Greece pay off its debts. "Loony Left government". Ha! More like loony neo-liberal creditors.
That is garbage, other Euro countries have had to pull themselves out of the mire by their own efforts like Ireland for instance, what is so special about flipping Greece?
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That is garbage, other Euro countries have had to pull themselves out of the mire by their own efforts like Ireland for instance, what is so special about flipping Greece?
Floo, I think the reason that Greece is being treated so carefully is that, from the very start of the Eurozone experiment, their economy was probably the 'least good fit' of all those that were effectively forced into the Eurozone by Germany and France. Remember that under the original terms of Eurozone membership, the ONLY country that is now in the zone which satisfied those terms was Germany. The parameters had to be relaxed at least once in order for even France to qualify. IIRC, there had to be a second relaxation to allow countries like Italy and Greece to be levered into the system.
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but the Greeks won't even play by the rules.
That's not entirely fair. The Greeks instituted massive cuts to government spending and if the economy hadn't also crashed, they would now be running a healthy surplus.
Yes was probably true, the original measures were starting to work - until they elected a Loony Left government.
It was precisely those measures, being too harsh to start with, which caused the economy to crash even further. You don't need to be an economist to realise that the overly harsh terms demanded by Greek's creditors is no way to enable Greece pay off its debts. "Loony Left government". Ha! More like loony neo-liberal creditors.
That is garbage, other Euro countries have had to pull themselves out of the mire by their own efforts like Ireland for instance, what is so special about flipping Greece?
Eh? Greece will never be able to pay off its debts if all you're determined to do is strangle its economy to death.
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It's ironic really, all the bad loans that were made by the banks during the good old days are now being rewarded by massive bail-outs, to the tune of trillions of euros/pounds, while the debtors have to be punished for having accepted these loans! It's never been such a good time to be a loan-shark, you can get all these unelected bodies (troika) to back you up with threats.
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When you borrow money on a massive scale, and accept the conditions set down, then cannot pay, what do you expect the creditors to do? The money lent to Greece was tax-payers money from across the EU, and the creditors have a duty to get that back. Try borrowing £5,000 from your bank, then, unable to pay back, ask for another loan to pay it, and on your terms. You'd be in court pretty quick with that attitude. It's a pity the average Greek has to suffer, but many of them benefited from all the loans and missed tax payments, ultra-generous pensions, and improved infra-structure, etc. It's life, I'm afraid!
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Actually, if I owed my bank a ton of money, they would be desperate to do a deal with me, some kind of debt restructuring, for the simple reason that if we don't do that, I could chose to go bankrupt, in which case the bank would get about 5p in the £.
Same with Greece, if they leave the euro, what chances of ever getting any money back for the loan-sharks, sorry, the French and German banks.
It's strange how Germany had some of its debts cancelled in the 50s, but hang on, that was Germany who now have the whip hand. I think the UK and US also helped Germany re-establish various industries such as cars, but hey, those were the good old days, today the loan-sharks are king, that's life indeed.
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Actually, if I owed my bank a ton of money, they would be desperate to do a deal with me, some kind of debt restructuring, for the simple reason that if we don't do that, I could chose to go bankrupt, in which case the bank would get about 5p in the £.
Same with Greece, if they leave the euro, what chances of ever getting any money back for the loan-sharks, sorry, the French and German banks.
It's strange how Germany had some of his debts cancelled in the 50s, but hang on, that was Germany who now have the whip hand. I think the UK and US also helped Germany re-establish various industries such as cars, but hey, those were the good old days, today the loan-sharks are king, that's life indeed.
Post-War circumstances were vastly different to now. It was to no-one's advantage to have a destitute Germany, and the conditions in Greece, hard though they may be for many, do not equate with those in a shattered Germany. I don't feel much empathy towards the EC, IMF, and ECB; but you have to live with circumstances as they are. Spain, Italy, Portugal, Ireland, are all in deep trouble, (Ireland less so now), and they are sticking by the rules.are
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I'm not sure about that. I think a shattered Greece, with its economy pulverized by austerity, is quite dangerous. For one thing, there is the danger of a swing of the political pendulum towards the right, where no doubt Golden Dawn are waiting in the wings, plus the danger of military take-over. There is also the danger of terrorism beginning to occur in such a failed state. Plus the spill-over from a collapsing economy to other economies. Ah well, none of our concern really.
The German miracle must be preserved at all costs!
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I'm not sure about that. I think a shattered Greece, with its economy pulverized by austerity, is quite dangerous. For one thing, there is the danger of a swing of the political pendulum towards the right, where no doubt Golden Dawn are waiting in the wings, plus the danger of military take-over. There is also the danger of terrorism beginning to occur in such a failed state. Plus the spill-over from a collapsing economy to other economies. Ah well, none of our concern really.
The German miracle must be preserved at all costs!
I'm not an apologist for Germany: just being realistic. Greece will probably get some kind of deal, but it will be hard on them whatever happens; and you have to say, they brought it on themselves.
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Well, loan sharks always blame the debtor, but in this case, they have the might of France and Germany behind them, who are desperate to prove that the euro wasn't a really really bad idea, but a really really good one, and if the Greek economy has to be sacrificed in the process, it's all for a greater cause. After all, nobody elected the troika, and the Greeks elected their government, so how ridiculous to complain about unelected bodies, that's the whole basis of the EU, isn't it?
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Well, loan sharks always blame the debtor, but in this case, they have the might of France and Germany behind them, who are desperate to prove that the euro wasn't a really really bad idea, but a really really good one, and if the Greek economy has to be sacrificed in the process, it's all for a greater cause. After all, nobody elected the troika, and the Greeks elected their government, so how ridiculous to complain about unelected bodies, that's the whole basis of the EU, isn't it?
I have no sympathy for the EU, or any of it's aspects - I am an out and out Eurosceptic; but Greece is in the Eurozone, and has to live with that and all its repercussions .
It was one of our wiser decisions to stay out of the Eurozone, and the sooner we exit from the whole failed EU project, the better.
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So if you make the banks disappear, of course you can't expect to snatch their money in the process? Or do you think you can manage to pull that off comrade?
Well I'm I afraid your utopia will never materialize Jack. When has the world ever acted together and for such a silly proposal? I would get better financial advice from a monkey on a rock. Until I find a monkey on a rock I will stick with my investment banker at the bank where I have been a client for 40 years.
Watch and learn.
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That is garbage, other Euro countries have had to pull themselves out of the mire by their own efforts like Ireland for instance, what is so special about flipping Greece?
Floo, I think the reason that Greece is being treated so carefully is that, from the very start of the Eurozone experiment, their economy was probably the 'least good fit' of all those that were effectively forced into the Eurozone by Germany and France. Remember that under the original terms of Eurozone membership, the ONLY country that is now in the zone which satisfied those terms was Germany. The parameters had to be relaxed at least once in order for even France to qualify. IIRC, there had to be a second relaxation to allow countries like Italy and Greece to be levered into the system.
Don't forget Goldman Sachs.
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It's ironic really, all the bad loans that were made by the banks during the good old days are now being rewarded by massive bail-outs, to the tune of trillions of euros/pounds, while the debtors have to be punished for having accepted these loans! It's never been such a good time to be a loan-shark, you can get all these unelected bodies (troika) to back you up with threats.
Don't forget about the politicians who were bribed to take out those loans, they're culpable too.
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When you borrow money on a massive scale, and accept the conditions set down, then cannot pay, what do you expect the creditors to do? The money lent to Greece was tax-payers money from across the EU, and the creditors have a duty to get that back. Try borrowing £5,000 from your bank, then, unable to pay back, ask for another loan to pay it, and on your terms. You'd be in court pretty quick with that attitude. It's a pity the average Greek has to suffer, but many of them benefited from all the loans and missed tax payments, ultra-generous pensions, and improved infra-structure, etc. It's life, I'm afraid!
The creditors knew they couldn't pay it back but they knew the governments would bail them out. There was no risk for them it was win-win, they had no moral hazard.
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I'm not sure about that. I think a shattered Greece, with its economy pulverized by austerity, is quite dangerous. For one thing, there is the danger of a swing of the political pendulum towards the right, where no doubt Golden Dawn are waiting in the wings, plus the danger of military take-over. There is also the danger of terrorism beginning to occur in such a failed state. Plus the spill-over from a collapsing economy to other economies. Ah well, none of our concern really.
The German miracle must be preserved at all costs!
The markets will also speculate about who will be next and put pressure on them and they may not see the Euro as being such a sure thing and pull it down. If Greece fails it will show the many flaws in the Eurozone system. Also, don't forget about the migrant problem on the Med coast, which is where Greece is in the firing line and where they the migrants could easily invade the EU as Greece melts down.
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Well, a failed Greek state could be a nightmare, possibly a conduit for terrorism, extremists of left and right, migrants pouring in in order to reach northern Europe, and so on. Still, as long as Angela preserves her beloved euro zone, and the dodgy banks are supported, that's all that matters.
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Actually, if I owed my bank a ton of money, they would be desperate to do a deal with me, some kind of debt restructuring, for the simple reason that if we don't do that, I could chose to go bankrupt, in which case the bank would get about 5p in the £.
Same with Greece, if they leave the euro, what chances of ever getting any money back for the loan-sharks, sorry, the French and German banks.
It's strange how Germany had some of its debts cancelled in the 50s, but hang on, that was Germany who now have the whip hand. I think the UK and US also helped Germany re-establish various industries such as cars, but hey, those were the good old days, today the loan-sharks are king, that's life indeed.
It's also the Germany that has to undo the ravages of communism on half it's country. It is not surprising that they are not too keen to be dictated to by another bunch of commies.
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Well, yes, it seems better to be ruled by an unelected troika, who have your best interests at heart. Why bother with electing a government?
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Well, yes, it seems better to be ruled by an unelected troika, who have your best interests at heart. Why bother with electing a government?
The Greeks have voted to join the Third World - who are any of us to question that Democratic decision.
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Well, yes, it seems better to be ruled by an unelected troika, who have your best interests at heart. Why bother with electing a government?
The Greeks have voted to join the Third World - who are any of us to question that Democratic decision.
What a stupid comment. The Greeks voted to reject endless austerity, austerity which is slowly but surely strangling their economy to death. If this is the method by which the Troika believes Greece will be able to pay off its debts then it's even more dimwitted than it's already proven to be. You can't tighten the noose around a person's neck and expect them to be able to catch their breath. Maybe the Troika could actually learn some economics. Keynes would be a good start.
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Well, the IMF have conceded that the austerity applied to Greece was too harsh, and has wrecked the economy, thus actually preventing repayment of debts. However, this is too late, as it has all become totally political, some parts of the EU wanting to do a deal with Greece, but the Germans saying no.
The really startling thing was that the the troika refused to do a deal with the previous Samaras govt, but then the troika wanted to make an example of Greece, and reduce them to penury, pour encourager les autres, obviously (to warn other governments). Loan-sharks do knee-capping!
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Remove the banks and the debt just disappears...
Where are you going to borrow money to buy a new house? Or start a business?
A building Society. ;D
Which is a kind of bank. You're not allowed banks.
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That is garbage, other Euro countries have had to pull themselves out of the mire by their own efforts like Ireland for instance, what is so special about flipping Greece?
What is so special is that things have gone too far with Greece. There is no way for them to pay the debts back. The ECB and the IMF are not getting their money. It doesn't matter who is to blame.
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Which is a kind of bank. You're not allowed banks.
Only those that have gone the demutualisation route. There are still some building societies that are mutual societies and not banks.
Then, there are credit unions and family members.
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The really startling thing was that the the troika refused to do a deal with the previous Samaras govt, but then the troika wanted to make an example of Greece, and reduce them to penury, pour encourager les autres, obviously (to warn other governments). Loan-sharks do knee-capping!
I wonder whether the lesson they wanted to teach the other EZ countries will be seen to have backfired in the next 5/10/... years?
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Which is a kind of bank. You're not allowed banks.
Only those that have gone the demutualisation route.
They are still banks in the general sense.
Then, there are credit unions and family members.
Credit unions are banks. Of course your family members might have the ready cash to pay for a few hundred grand's worth of equipment to expand your business, mine don't.
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They are still banks in the general sense.
But only in a sense that they keep your money on your behalf. I'm not aware of any mutual societies/building societies that had to be bailed out by Governments and external bodies. That is where your comparison falls down.
Then, there are credit unions and family members.
Credit unions are banks. [/quote]OK, did any have to be bailed out by the Government?
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It would appear that the 'new plan', which has been cobbled together by the Greek Government, contains many of the things which were rejected in last Sunday's NO vote! ::)
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It would appear that the 'new plan', which has been cobbled together by the Greek Government, contains many of the things which were rejected in last Sunday's NO vote! ::)
After boldly standing firm and going right to the edge - the Greeks have achieved . . . almost exactly what they were offered before.
(assuming anyone still trusts them)
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Oh, The grand old Duke of York,
He had ten thousand men;
He marched them up to the top of the hill,
And he marched them down again.
And when they were up, they were up,
And when they were down, they were down,
And when they were only half-way up,
They were neither up nor down.
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Remove the banks and the debt just disappears...
Where are you going to borrow money to buy a new house? Or start a business?
A building Society. ;D
Which is a kind of bank. You're not allowed banks.
It is not a bank!!!
Also, I was referring to the present system which is usually called neo-liberalisms. I have no objection to other systems of banking where they are severely restricted in what they can do and undertake.
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The really startling thing was that the the troika refused to do a deal with the previous Samaras govt, but then the troika wanted to make an example of Greece, and reduce them to penury, pour encourager les autres, obviously (to warn other governments). Loan-sharks do knee-capping!
I wonder whether the lesson they wanted to teach the other EZ countries will be seen to have backfired in the next 5/10/... years?
Spain and Portugal have elections in Oct/Nov. We may see then?
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It would appear that the 'new plan', which has been cobbled together by the Greek Government, contains many of the things which were rejected in last Sunday's NO vote! ::)
After boldly standing firm and going right to the edge - the Greeks have achieved . . . almost exactly what they were offered before.
(assuming anyone still trusts them)
It's not over, there's method in their madness...I bet you there is a thorn in their proposals for the EU lot.
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But only in a sense that they keep your money on your behalf.
You don't think that the money you put into a building society just sits in a vault somewhere do you? They lend it to people who want to borrow money, just like a bank.
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It would appear that the 'new plan', which has been cobbled together by the Greek Government, contains many of the things which were rejected in last Sunday's NO vote! ::)
After boldly standing firm and going right to the edge - the Greeks have achieved . . . almost exactly what they were offered before.
(assuming anyone still trusts them)
It's not over, there's method in their madness...I bet you there is a thorn in their proposals for the EU lot.
More a case of madness in their method if you ask me. The usual trick of politicians - create the external threat then make a drama of overcoming it. (Except in this case they haven't - so are they really fooling anyone?)
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I expect some sort of agreement will be worked out pro tem, only for the Greeks to be requesting a fourth bailout in the not so distant future! ::)
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It would appear that the 'new plan', which has been cobbled together by the Greek Government, contains many of the things which were rejected in last Sunday's NO vote! ::)
After boldly standing firm and going right to the edge - the Greeks have achieved . . . almost exactly what they were offered before.
(assuming anyone still trusts them)
It's not over, there's method in their madness...I bet you there is a thorn in their proposals for the EU lot.
More a case of madness in their method if you ask me. The usual trick of politicians - create the external threat then make a drama of overcoming it. (Except in this case they haven't - so are they really fooling anyone?)
There has to be that 'thorn' for the EU so they reject it as their plan is to show how undemocratic and nasty the present form of the EU is. This will then bring on board the other Leftie parties in the other member countries and especially Spain and Portugal as they have elections in Oct/Nov. I think that thorn is the insistence of a 30% haircut on their debt.
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I expect some sort of agreement will be worked out pro tem, only for the Greeks to be requesting a fourth bailout in the not so distant future! ::)
Does the bailouts not go on to the Greek government's books? If so they are an insane system. The austerity plan just makes them poorer whilst the bailouts racks more unsustainable costs on them. Iirc Spain's bailouts short circuit to the banks and are therefore not shown on the government's books, except that portion that are used to finance Spain itself.
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I expect some sort of agreement will be worked out pro tem, only for the Greeks to be requesting a fourth bailout in the not so distant future! ::)
Does the bailouts not go on to the Greek government's books? If so they are an insane system. The austerity plan just makes them poorer whilst the bailouts racks more unsustainable costs on them. Iirc Spain's bailouts short circuit to the banks and are therefore not shown on the government's books, except that portion that are used to finance Spain itself.
Just what are you advocating? That the Greek Government be allowed to renege on its debts? If not, what ? They either pay, or they don't. They have been given ample opportunity to get a grip on their finances over the last five years, and they are still seeking another bail-out, which will be their third. What are the IMF, ECB, and EC supposed to do? Keep piling the tax-payer's money into Greece, with, it seems,little hope or expectation of it being repaid?
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I expect some sort of agreement will be worked out pro tem, only for the Greeks to be requesting a fourth bailout in the not so distant future! ::)
Does the bailouts not go on to the Greek government's books? If so they are an insane system. The austerity plan just makes them poorer whilst the bailouts racks more unsustainable costs on them. Iirc Spain's bailouts short circuit to the banks and are therefore not shown on the government's books, except that portion that are used to finance Spain itself.
Just what are you advocating? That the Greek Government be allowed to renege on its debts? if not, what ? They either pay, or they don't. They have been given ample opportunity to get a grip on their finances over the last five years, and they are still seeking another bail-out, which will be their third. What are the IMF, ECB, and EC supposed to do? Keep piling the tax-payer's money into Greece, with, it seems,little hope or expectation of it being repaid?
You're very myopic in your outlook on this one, Basher. The bigger picture, as I read it, is that Tsipras isn't looking for a deal he is looking to making the EU lot look like asses - undemocratic asses!!!
The Eurozone project can't work there is no solution here. Just as the USSR couldn't/wouldn't work as it was a flawed idea. Forget about trying to get workout what the right deal should be; who is obliged to do what. The EU project is about to crack up and you're acting as though there is a solution in all this.
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I expect some sort of agreement will be worked out pro tem, only for the Greeks to be requesting a fourth bailout in the not so distant future! ::)
Does the bailouts not go on to the Greek government's books? If so they are an insane system. The austerity plan just makes them poorer whilst the bailouts racks more unsustainable costs on them. Iirc Spain's bailouts short circuit to the banks and are therefore not shown on the government's books, except that portion that are used to finance Spain itself.
Just what are you advocating? That the Greek Government be allowed to renege on its debts? if not, what ? They either pay, or they don't. They have been given ample opportunity to get a grip on their finances over the last five years, and they are still seeking another bail-out, which will be their third. What are the IMF, ECB, and EC supposed to do? Keep piling the tax-payer's money into Greece, with, it seems,little hope or expectation of it being repaid?
You're very myopic in your outlook on this one, Basher. The bigger picture, as I read it, is that Tsipras isn't looking for a deal he is looking to making the EU lot look like asses - undemocratic asses!!!
The Eurozone project can't work there is no solution here. Just as the USSR couldn't/wouldn't work as it was a flawed idea. Forget about trying to get workout what the right deal should be; who is obliged to do what. The EU project is about to crack up and you're acting as though there is a solution in all this.
No, you have me wrong. I am a confirmed Euro sceptic: the sooner the failed project is ended, the better. What I am saying is, that Greece should not be allowed to demand its own rules for repayment of its massive debts, which it signed itself to, by the way, whilst others are not.
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The latest news. It looks as if an agreement has been reached to enable Greece to stay in the Eurozone!
I hope that when it comes to a British referendum on Europe we will opt to stay in.
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The latest news. It looks as if an agreement has been reached to enable Greece to stay in the Eurozone!
I hope that when it comes to a British referendum on Europe we will opt to stay in.
But Europe and the Eurozone are two different things. Interestingly, if anything, the Greek referendum vote was a 'no' to Europe.
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This fiasco seems to demonstrate three things:
1/ The single European currency was probably a step too far.
2/ Allowing the Greeks to enter was totally insane.
3/ You can always rely on a Left-wing government to make a bad economic situation worse.
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This fiasco seems to demonstrate three things:
1/ The single European currency was probably a step too far.
2/ Allowing the Greeks to enter was totally insane.
3/ You can always rely on a Left-wing government to make a bad economic situation worse.
It was a Coalition that got them into the mess: so they are all to blame.
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It would appear that the 'new plan', which has been cobbled together by the Greek Government, contains many of the things which were rejected in last Sunday's NO vote! ::)
After boldly standing firm and going right to the edge - the Greeks have achieved . . . almost exactly what they were offered before.
(assuming anyone still trusts them)
It's not over, there's method in their madness...I bet you there is a thorn in their proposals for the EU lot.
More a case of madness in their method if you ask me. The usual trick of politicians - create the external threat then make a drama of overcoming it. (Except in this case they haven't - so are they really fooling anyone?)
The game isn't over. Lots more to come...
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I expect some sort of agreement will be worked out pro tem, only for the Greeks to be requesting a fourth bailout in the not so distant future! ::)
Does the bailouts not go on to the Greek government's books? If so they are an insane system. The austerity plan just makes them poorer whilst the bailouts racks more unsustainable costs on them. Iirc Spain's bailouts short circuit to the banks and are therefore not shown on the government's books, except that portion that are used to finance Spain itself.
Just what are you advocating? That the Greek Government be allowed to renege on its debts? if not, what ? They either pay, or they don't. They have been given ample opportunity to get a grip on their finances over the last five years, and they are still seeking another bail-out, which will be their third. What are the IMF, ECB, and EC supposed to do? Keep piling the tax-payer's money into Greece, with, it seems,little hope or expectation of it being repaid?
You're very myopic in your outlook on this one, Basher. The bigger picture, as I read it, is that Tsipras isn't looking for a deal he is looking to making the EU lot look like asses - undemocratic asses!!!
The Eurozone project can't work there is no solution here. Just as the USSR couldn't/wouldn't work as it was a flawed idea. Forget about trying to get workout what the right deal should be; who is obliged to do what. The EU project is about to crack up and you're acting as though there is a solution in all this.
No, you have me wrong. I am a confirmed Euro sceptic: the sooner the failed project is ended, the better. What I am saying is, that Greece should not be allowed to demand its own rules for repayment of its massive debts, which it signed itself to, by the way, whilst others are not.
If you think they are part of a failed and corrupt system then why do you want them stay in it, would you? They think they can pull it apart and so negate on their debts and this includes the others as well.
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The latest news. It looks as if an agreement has been reached to enable Greece to stay in the Eurozone!
I hope that when it comes to a British referendum on Europe we will opt to stay in.
But Europe and the Eurozone are two different things. Interestingly, if anything, the Greek referendum vote was a 'no' to Europe.
In some sense, yes. I think the vote was a confidence vote for Tsipras and bate for the EU elites to show their colours by talking it down and hence saying they have no interest in democracy. Tsipras will claim he had a gun put to his head to force him to make the deal the EU wanted though it has kept Greece alive (i.e. the banks mainly) so they can play the same game again to the Spanish and Portuguese elections.
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Interestingly, if anything, the Greek referendum vote was a 'no' to Europe.
Incorrect. The Greek referendum was a no to the conditions that the ECB and the IMF want to impose on them (conditions that look remarkably like the later Greek proposals). If you had asked the question "do you want to stay in the Euro and the EU" in the referendum, the answer would most likely be yes.
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JK,
"If you think they are part of a failed and corrupt system then why do you want them stay in it, would you? They think they can pull it apart and so negate on their debts and this includes the others as well."
I don't think they should stay in it; but whilst they are there, and they chose to be, they should obey the rules they agreed to in the first instance.
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Plainly, the (new) agreement is not going to work either for Greece or the creditor organisations.
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Plainly, the (new) agreement is not going to work either for Greece or the creditor organisations.
Probably not. The more reason to call it a day, and let Greece leave the Eurozone, and try to make a go of it on their own.
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Plainly, the (new) agreement is not going to work either for Greece or the creditor organisations.
Probably not. The more reason to call it a day, and let Greece leave the Eurozone, and try to make a go of it on their own.
Potentially, the Greeks could embrace this opportunity to create modern and prosperous economy - but somehow I suspect that that is not going to happen.
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No doubt they would like to, but too much money will be taken out for that to be possible. It's like bondage - you can only make enough to keep you in slavery - never enough to repay the debt and get out.
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No doubt they would like to, but too much money will be taken out for that to be possible. It's like bondage - you can only make enough to keep you in slavery - never enough to repay the debt and get out.
On the other hand, they are being told exactly what they need to do sort out their economy. Basic stuff like collecting (fair) taxes, having a proper labour market, reducing the bloated public sector, increasing completion.
All they need to do is follow the instructions and things will improve - but their problem is that that would annoy vested interests and their Loony Left.
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No doubt they would like to, but too much money will be taken out for that to be possible. It's like bondage - you can only make enough to keep you in slavery - never enough to repay the debt and get out.
On the other hand, they are being told exactly what they need to do sort out their economy. Basic stuff like collecting (fair) taxes, having a proper labour market, reducing the bloated public sector, increasing completion.
All they need to do is follow the instructions and things will improve - but their problem is that that would annoy vested interests and their Loony Left.
Things are so volatile at present that anything could happen, even civil unrest, which could prove explosive.
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No doubt they would like to, but too much money will be taken out for that to be possible. It's like bondage - you can only make enough to keep you in slavery - never enough to repay the debt and get out.
On the other hand, they are being told exactly what they need to do sort out their economy. Basic stuff like collecting (fair) taxes, having a proper labour market, reducing the bloated public sector, increasing completion.
All they need to do is follow the instructions and things will improve - but their problem is that that would annoy vested interests and their Loony Left.
Things are so volatile at present that anything could happen, even civil unrest, which could prove explosive.
That's the Loony Left for you, dead on cue - maybe they'll bring back Martial Law?
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No doubt they would like to, but too much money will be taken out for that to be possible. It's like bondage - you can only make enough to keep you in slavery - never enough to repay the debt and get out.
On the other hand, they are being told exactly what they need to do sort out their economy. Basic stuff like collecting (fair) taxes, having a proper labour market, reducing the bloated public sector, increasing completion.
All they need to do is follow the instructions and things will improve - but their problem is that that would annoy vested interests and their Loony Left.
Things are so volatile at present that anything could happen, even civil unrest, which could prove explosive.
That's the Loony Left for you, dead on cue - maybe they'll bring back Martial Law?
LOL! You are funny.
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I'll bet that Billy Bragg is penning a song as we speak.
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JK,
"If you think they are part of a failed and corrupt system then why do you want them stay in it, would you? They think they can pull it apart and so negate on their debts and this includes the others as well."
I don't think they should stay in it; but whilst they are there, and they chose to be, they should obey the rules they agreed to in the first instance.
Then I suppose the question is why don't they want to leave?
My answer would be is that they like the idea of the EU etc. but not the one that has evolved that talks about solidarity but has none. So they want, I would surmise, to change it from within.
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JK,
"If you think they are part of a failed and corrupt system then why do you want them stay in it, would you? They think they can pull it apart and so negate on their debts and this includes the others as well."
I don't think they should stay in it; but whilst they are there, and they chose to be, they should obey the rules they agreed to in the first instance.
Then I suppose the question is why don't they want to leave?
My answer would be is that they like the idea of the EU etc. but not the one that has evolved that talks about solidarity but has none. So they want, I would surmise, to change it from within.
Well, that won't happen, just as it won't happen for Cameron. The whole EU project is a busted flush, and the sooner we get out the better, whatever Greece does.
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JK,
"If you think they are part of a failed and corrupt system then why do you want them stay in it, would you? They think they can pull it apart and so negate on their debts and this includes the others as well."
I don't think they should stay in it; but whilst they are there, and they chose to be, they should obey the rules they agreed to in the first instance.
Then I suppose the question is why don't they want to leave?
Because for quite a while Greece did very nicely with the Euro, thank you very much. They were able to borrow money on the same terms (i.e. as cheaply as) Germany.
Furthermore, leaving the Euro will be a short term disaster. Imagine you run a Greek company that got a loan from a German bank in euros but whose income is paid for by the locals in new drachmas.
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JK,
"If you think they are part of a failed and corrupt system then why do you want them stay in it, would you? They think they can pull it apart and so negate on their debts and this includes the others as well."
I don't think they should stay in it; but whilst they are there, and they chose to be, they should obey the rules they agreed to in the first instance.
Then I suppose the question is why don't they want to leave?
My answer would be is that they like the idea of the EU etc. but not the one that has evolved that talks about solidarity but has none. So they want, I would surmise, to change it from within.
Well, that won't happen, just as it won't happen for Cameron. The whole EU project is a busted flush, and the sooner we get out the better, whatever Greece does.
I said what they, the Greeks, want. I agree we the Brits should leave the EU.
How can Brussels rule if all the people rise up and rebel? That is, the left in Greece, Spain, Portugal etc. and the hard right in other countries. Tsipras is showing the EU people what the EU elites are about; bullying for their own gain and not caring about the people. As I have said before Spain and Portugal have elections at the end of the year. If this occurs then the EU would have to change as chaos would follow.
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JK,
"If you think they are part of a failed and corrupt system then why do you want them stay in it, would you? They think they can pull it apart and so negate on their debts and this includes the others as well."
I don't think they should stay in it; but whilst they are there, and they chose to be, they should obey the rules they agreed to in the first instance.
Then I suppose the question is why don't they want to leave?
Because for quite a while Greece did very nicely with the Euro, thank you very much. They were able to borrow money on the same terms (i.e. as cheaply as) Germany.
Furthermore, leaving the Euro will be a short term disaster. Imagine you run a Greek company that got a loan from a German bank in euros but whose income is paid for by the locals in new drachmas.
I'm not too sure what your point is. All Euros would be converted into drachmas and there is no reason why Greece should revert to them anyway as there are countries using the Euro who are not in the EZ. There are always ways round these things if planning is made for them but the real threat here is an unplanned Grexit.
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I'm not too sure what your point is.
It's fairly obvious. Leave the Euro and there will be a lot of short term pain caused by the certain devaluation of the new drachma.
All Euros would be converted into drachmas and there is no reason why Greece should revert to them anyway as there are countries using the Euro who are not in the EZ. There are always ways round these things if planning is made for them but the real threat here is an unplanned Grexit.
The whole point of doing Grexit at all is to leave the Euro.
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I'm not too sure what your point is.
It's fairly obvious. Leave the Euro and there will be a lot of short term pain caused by the certain devaluation of the new drachma.
All Euros would be converted into drachmas and there is no reason why Greece should revert to them anyway as there are countries using the Euro who are not in the EZ. There are always ways round these things if planning is made for them but the real threat here is an unplanned Grexit.
The whole point of doing Grexit at all is to leave the Euro.
There's going to be pain anyway. Stay in and be in perpetual decline and ruin or come out and endure some short term pain but with the chance to devalue and grow again.
And your second point means what? We have to deal with the Euro it's called Forex.
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The furore seems to be dying down, now the Greeks have more money. But how long before they need even more? They are in such a mess, that even if they do implement the conditions imposed on them, they will still be in trouble, even in the short term.
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The IMF criticism of the Greek deal is interesting, as some journos are saying that behind the IMF stands the US, which thinks that Greece will never pay off its debts, and therefore has to have a partial write-off.
Even further, some journos are saying that the US disapproves of the whole EU neo-liberal approach, although this sounds like conjecture. But I guess that some senior US figures are leaking this stuff, all very convoluted. The US tends to favour more Keynesian measures, although European economies are quite prepared to do this surreptitiously, when they think no-one is looking.
Maybe also the US is fearful of Greece going into the Russian orbit. Of course, most of this stuff is hidden away, not for prying eyes, that is you and me!
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Stories now that Obama himself is pushing the EU to cut Greece some slack. Didn't realize it went to the top, so not really leaks from American officials, but the big wahoonie himself, don't ask me what the hell this means, dunno. Partly to do with the Euro neo-liberal approach (e.g. austerity, privatization), which the US is saying, stinks.
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There's going to be pain anyway. Stay in and be in perpetual decline and ruin or come out and endure some short term pain but with the chance to devalue and grow again.
I agree with this assessment, but I was responding to your query about why the Greeks seem to be so inexplicably keen to stay in the Euro. The reason is twofold:
- The Greeks did very nicely out of the Euro for several years.
- There will be a lot of pain involved in leaving. In fact, it will be pretty chaotic, but, for Greece, I think it is the best option still available. The Greeks themselves don't seem to believe this.
And your second point means what? We have to deal with the Euro it's called Forex.
I was responding to this from you:
All Euros would be converted into drachmas and there is no reason why Greece should revert to them anyway as there are countries using the Euro who are not in the EZ. There are always ways round these things if planning is made for them but the real threat here is an unplanned Grexit.
which seems to imply that Greece could continue to use the Euro after Grexit, but that is a contradiction in terms: the thing that Grexit means exiting is the Euro.
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Stories now that Obama himself is pushing the EU to cut Greece some slack. Didn't realize it went to the top, so not really leaks from American officials, but the big wahoonie himself, don't ask me what the hell this means, dunno. Partly to do with the Euro neo-liberal approach (e.g. austerity, privatization), which the US is saying, stinks.
I would guess that the US doesn't want the EU to go into chaos as this would upset the banking system which is globally linked like a house of cards.
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There's going to be pain anyway. Stay in and be in perpetual decline and ruin or come out and endure some short term pain but with the chance to devalue and grow again.
I agree with this assessment, but I was responding to your query about why the Greeks seem to be so inexplicably keen to stay in the Euro. The reason is twofold:
- The Greeks did very nicely out of the Euro for several years.
- There will be a lot of pain involved in leaving. In fact, it will be pretty chaotic, but, for Greece, I think it is the best option still available. The Greeks themselves don't seem to believe this.
And your second point means what? We have to deal with the Euro it's called Forex.
I was responding to this from you:
All Euros would be converted into drachmas and there is no reason why Greece should revert to them anyway as there are countries using the Euro who are not in the EZ. There are always ways round these things if planning is made for them but the real threat here is an unplanned Grexit.
which seems to imply that Greece could continue to use the Euro after Grexit, but that is a contradiction in terms: the thing that Grexit means exiting is the Euro.
To your last point: The countries that use the Euro but are not in the EZ are pegged to it. Greece could do the same but of course the question of what would be pegged is a valid question. This could be done by having an interim currency, a kind of IOU, which would find its level in the market; after they had defaulted on their debts, then peg it to the Euro. But one consequence of Greece leaving could be that the Euro itself could substantially fall.
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The countries that use the Euro but are not in the EZ are pegged to it. Greece could do the same but of course the question of what would be pegged is a valid question.
If the Greeks continued to use the Euro, it would not be Grexit.
This could be done by having an interim currency, a kind of IOU
All modern currencies are a kind of IOU.
which would find its level in the market; after they had defaulted on their debts, then peg it to the Euro.
Why would they do that? If they peg their new currency to the Euro, they have all the problems but none of the advantages of actually being in the Euro.
But one consequence of Greece leaving could be that the Euro itself could substantially fall.
It is a possibility. If the Euro does fail, don't be misled into thinking that is good news though.
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Stories now that Obama himself is pushing the EU to cut Greece some slack. Didn't realize it went to the top, so not really leaks from American officials, but the big wahoonie himself, don't ask me what the hell this means, dunno. Partly to do with the Euro neo-liberal approach (e.g. austerity, privatization), which the US is saying, stinks.
As many people have pointed out, on the face of it Greece could be 'forgiven' a portion of it's debt without causing a major financial crash. The problem would be that Spain, Portugal and probably others would immediately jump on that bandwagon - and if that happened - it would cause very big problems for Eurozone, the EU and probably the whole world economy.
So the logic is inescapable: it's better for everyone if the Greeks suffer.
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The countries that use the Euro but are not in the EZ are pegged to it. Greece could do the same but of course the question of what would be pegged is a valid question.
1) If the Greeks continued to use the Euro, it would not be Grexit.
This could be done by having an interim currency, a kind of IOU
2) All modern currencies are a kind of IOU.
which would find its level in the market; after they had defaulted on their debts, then peg it to the Euro.
3) Why would they do that? If they peg their new currency to the Euro, they have all the problems but none of the advantages of actually being in the Euro.
But one consequence of Greece leaving could be that the Euro itself could substantially fall.
4) It is a possibility. If the Euro does fail, don't be misled into thinking that is good news though.
1) Being in the EZ is more than just using the Euro, you have to keep to the conditions for being a part of it.
2) There you go then it could be done as a short term measure.
3) True! Though I was thinking it being as a short term measure whilst they planned for a permanent currency. The thing is a Grexit hasn't been planned for, as they all play out their game theory madness, and so would cause unnecessary chaos and hardship. If they planned for it they could more easily slip back to the drachma, though easily is relative here.
4) I said fall not fail.
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1) Being in the EZ is more than just using the Euro, you have to keep to the conditions for being a part of it.
If you are not in the EZ, you don't get any input into policy, you don't get the cheap loans (which admittedly didn't do Greece much good as it turns out) and on a practical note, you don't get any physical currency to use in the cash economy.
3) True! Though I was thinking it being as a short term measure whilst they planned for a permanent currency.
Why peg it to the Euro when having to cope with Euro exchange rates has made this crisis so much worse than it would have been.
The thing is a Grexit hasn't been planned for,
It wouldn't surprise me if it had been planned for. If you are going to leave the Euro, it needs to be a complete surprise to most people. If they announced that next week they are going to leave the Euro, in the intervening period, everybody who can will move their money abroad which will collapse their banking system.
4) I said fall not fail.
It amounts to the same thing. Whether you call it falling or failing, the resulting recession will destroy economies and as a trading partner to all the EZ members, we would feel it.
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1) Being in the EZ is more than just using the Euro, you have to keep to the conditions for being a part of it.
If you are not in the EZ, you don't get any input into policy, you don't get the cheap loans (which admittedly didn't do Greece much good as it turns out) and on a practical note, you don't get any physical currency to use in the cash economy.
3) True! Though I was thinking it being as a short term measure whilst they planned for a permanent currency.
Why peg it to the Euro when having to cope with Euro exchange rates has made this crisis so much worse than it would have been.
The thing is a Grexit hasn't been planned for,
It wouldn't surprise me if it had been planned for. If you are going to leave the Euro, it needs to be a complete surprise to most people. If they announced that next week they are going to leave the Euro, in the intervening period, everybody who can will move their money abroad which will collapse their banking system.
4) I said fall not fail.
It amounts to the same thing. Whether you call it falling or failing, the resulting recession will destroy economies and as a trading partner to all the EZ members, we would feel it.
Regards point 2, pegging is used to 'hold' a currency that is rapidly falling so it freezes it in time. If Greece left the Euro/EZ its new drachma could plummet so I was thinking that this could be an interim holding measure as Greece gets its economy going. You are right that pegging has its problems but may be this interim measure could help.
Point 3 : I think it would be hard to plan for a Grexit and keep it secret. These things tend to leak out.
Point 4 : Depends how far it falls.
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Point 3 : I think it would be hard to plan for a Grexit and keep it secret. These things tend to leak out.
Seem to remember that before the Greek Govt agreed to the latest austerity measures imposed on them, the EZ's leaders actually said that they had developed (or at least were developing) contingency plans for a Grexit.
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Point 3 : I think it would be hard to plan for a Grexit and keep it secret. These things tend to leak out.
Seem to remember that before the Greek Govt agreed to the latest austerity measures imposed on them, the EZ's leaders actually said that they had developed (or at least were developing) contingency plans for a Grexit.
That was for crisis aid, the type of thing given to third worlds. It was not plans for a new currency.
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If Greece simply defaulted on their debts, would the results for their economy be worse than any other options they are facing?
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If Greece simply defaulted on their debts, would the results for their economy be worse than any other options they are facing?
I don't think so. It may be more difficult in the short term but with the ability to devalue their new currency, with time, they could grow. The Troika option is just driving them into a cesspit; and no way out, and it would mean privatising all their collateral goodies. This means the rich elites would buy them and make a fat profit off them, leaving the Greeks as serfs.