Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => Politics & Current Affairs => Topic started by: Anchorman on July 07, 2015, 08:27:37 PM
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Evel is ".....an act of constitutional vandalism." according to Miliband...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-33415474
Is this the answer to the West Lothian Question...or another burach from the Westminster play pen?
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Evel is ".....an act of constitutional vandalism." according to Miliband...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-33415474
Is this the answer to the West Lothian Question...or another burach from the Westminster play pen?
I am not sure whether EVEL is the answer, but it is a good question.
It is anomalous, isn't it, that people living in four areas in the UK have some kind of devolved assembly or parliament, but most people living in England don't?
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Evel is ".....an act of constitutional vandalism." according to Miliband...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-33415474
Is this the answer to the West Lothian Question...or another burach from the Westminster play pen?
I am not sure whether EVEL is the answer, but it is a good question.
It is anomalous, isn't it, that people living in four areas in the UK have some kind of devolved assembly or parliament, but most people living in England don't?
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Yes.
Trying to solve this situation by amending HOC standing orders, rather than legislation, is no solution.
For starters, it puts added pressure on the speaker (whoever that is, and not necarily the present holder of that office) to decide if a piece of business is English only.
It also creates second class MPs.
The only logical solution would be a devolved English parliament....but since when was Westminster ever logical?
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Evel is ".....an act of constitutional vandalism." according to Miliband...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-33415474
Is this the answer to the West Lothian Question...or another burach from the Westminster play pen?
I am not sure whether EVEL is the answer, but it is a good question.
It is anomalous, isn't it, that people living in four areas in the UK have some kind of devolved assembly or parliament, but most people living in England don't?
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Yes.
Trying to solve this situation by amending HOC standing orders, rather than legislation, is no solution.
For starters, it puts added pressure on the speaker (whoever that is, and not necarily the present holder of that office) to decide if a piece of business is English only.
It also creates second class MPs.
The only logical solution would be a devolved English parliament....but since when was Westminster ever logical?
A devolved english Parliament would match what goes on elsewhere. It is complicated by the fact that part of England (London) already has a devolved assembly.
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You know my views on what should be the future direction of the 'union', cyberman.
But we're stuck with what we have, and, until that changes, we need to make it work to everyone's benefit. EVEL will only lead to endless wrangling and bad feeling, if a law is deemed 'English only' but has financial repercussions for other parts of the union, whose MPs will not have their votes counted in determining whether or not the bill becomes law.
This will not strengthen the union, it will simply sew the seeds of discontent and disharmony.
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Apparently several Welsh Borders MPs will challenge the EVEL idea because of the fact that at least some of their constituents use services from 'the other side' of the boundary - eg: Welsh folk going to England for healthcare and English folk going to Wales for education.
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Apparently several Welsh Borders MPs will challenge the EVEL idea because of the fact that at least some of their constituents use services from 'the other side' of the boundary - eg: Welsh folk going to England for healthcare and English folk going to Wales for education.
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That's only one of the implications of EVEL, Hope.
The others, of course, are locked up in Barnett.
Every pound spent on English only health or education has consequences in the Barnett formula...and therefore cannot be 'English only' issues.
It's gonna be 'interesting times'.......
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Dear Jim,
Just another Tory body swerve as Cameron runs around Europe like a headless chicken trying to fix the mess he has caused.
Gonnagle.
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Dear Jim,
Just another Tory body swerve as Cameron runs around Europe like a headless chicken trying to fix the mess he has caused.
Gonnagle.
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EVEL isn't even a patch covering the wound. It's rubbing salt in it.
As I stated, the only real answer to West Lothian within a UK scenario is an English Parliament...and that won't happen.
This make-do-and-mend approach to the unwritten constitution has landed us with a real mess in every sense of the word.
Fixing it is probably beyond the abilities of any party.
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The problem of EVEL is the failure to convince that the laws to be voted on are actually English only laws.
That decision should be taken out of the hand of MP's and decided by an independent body made up of representatives from the four nations.
Then after that and only after that can scots MP's can be told to GTF.
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Dear Jim,
Just another Tory body swerve as Cameron runs around Europe like a headless chicken trying to fix the mess he has caused.
Gonnagle.
Not sure that Cameron has caused it, Gonners. He may be excerbating it, but it has been going on for so long now that the last Labour administrations and the Tory ones before that are all equally to blame. I would even go as far as to say that, as far as Scotland is concerned, the SNP are equally to blame because their policy towards Europe is so different to the likely outcome of independence tat they are making pledges as impossible as those being made by Tsipras to the Greek people.
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Just another Tory body swerve as Cameron runs around Europe like a headless chicken trying to fix the mess he has caused.
What mess are we talking about?
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Just another Tory body swerve as Cameron runs around Europe like a headless chicken trying to fix the mess he has caused.
What mess are we talking about?
That would be the 'mess' whereby the UK has achieved record low unemployment and a recovering economy I assume.
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The only logical solution would be a devolved English parliament....but since when was Westminster ever logical?
No it wouldn't, because England of itself is too large to see this as devolution and too great a proportion of the UK for there to be credibly an English parliament and a UK one.
Plus there is already a devolved assembly representing about 7 million people living in England, which makes it by some margin the largest devolved body (by population) in the UK.
The answer is to bring devolution down to the English regions (just as already happens in one of those regions).
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Dear Jeremyp,
Maybe one of our more politically minded posters can remind us of the year ( 2012/2013/2014 ) where the Tories were warned that we would be swamped by migrants but they sat on their arses and buried their heads in the sand.
Gonnagle.
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Dear Hope,
Not sure that Cameron has caused it, Gonners. He may be excerbating it, but it has been going on for so long now that the last Labour administrations and the Tory ones before that are all equally to blame. I would even go as far as to say that, as far as Scotland is concerned, the SNP are equally to blame because their policy towards Europe is so different to the likely outcome of independence tat they are making pledges as impossible as those being made by Tsipras to the Greek people.
Yes I will concede your point, both the main parties are to blame, but it was Cameron who ignored the warning, and if I remember correctly even boasted that the warning had come to nothing.
And yes again, the SNP ( I think ) are say that Scotland needs more migrants.
And correct me if I am wrong but did Cameron not conduct part of his election campaign running around knee jerking to UKIP.
Gonnagle.
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Just another Tory body swerve as Cameron runs around Europe like a headless chicken trying to fix the mess he has caused.
What mess are we talking about?
That would be the 'mess' whereby the UK has achieved record low unemployment and a recovering economy I assume.
Hmm - seen the unemployment figures today?
Or the growth figures for the same quarter which were pretty dire at just 0.4%.
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Dear Jeremyp,
Maybe one of our more politically minded posters can remind us of the year ( 2012/2013/2014 ) where the Tories were warned that we would be swamped by migrants but they sat on their arses and buried their heads in the sand.
Gonnagle.
So the mess in question is our immigration problem. Fine, I understand now.
This is a problem that has been around for a lot longer than the Cameron government.
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Dear Jeremyp,
Fair enough, or you could have said, oh right Gonnagle that mess which Cameron ignored until Farage starting giving him a headache.
You know!! I did vote SNP, although I am very much against this little island splitting, but it did my wee Scottish heart the power of good to note that Scotland voted with its conscience, Tory voters voted with their wallets.
Gonnagle.
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Fair enough, or you could have said, oh right Gonnagle that mess which Cameron ignored until Farage starting giving him a headache.
I see it more as an opportunity than a problem. I don't know how much money we spend each year trying to keep Johnny Foreigner out of our emerald isle set in a silver sea, but it doesn't seem very effective and everything might be better if we spent that money on making sure they settle in here properly.
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Fair enough, or you could have said, oh right Gonnagle that mess which Cameron ignored until Farage starting giving him a headache.
I see it more as an opportunity than a problem. I don't know how much money we spend each year trying to keep Johnny Foreigner out of our emerald isle set in a silver sea, but it doesn't seem very effective and everything might be better if we spent that money on making sure they settle in here properly.
I suggest the amount needed would be enormous, and far out-reach what we may now be shelling out. We would still need to spend large amounts to monitor just who is coming in, bearing in mind the terrorist threat.
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Fair enough, or you could have said, oh right Gonnagle that mess which Cameron ignored until Farage starting giving him a headache.
I see it more as an opportunity than a problem. I don't know how much money we spend each year trying to keep Johnny Foreigner out of our emerald isle set in a silver sea, but it doesn't seem very effective and everything might be better if we spent that money on making sure they settle in here properly.
Well said.
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I suggest the amount needed would be enormous,
I suggest you have no more idea how much it would cost than I do.
We would still need to spend large amounts to monitor just who is coming in, bearing in mind the terrorist threat.
We are already paying those large amounts and it's made harder because so many people feel the need to sneak in.
Furthermore, I would suggest that the terrorist threat from people who are already citizens is higher than that from immigrants if past attacks are anything to go by.
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Wondering what immigration has to do with EVEL? Is immigration going to be devolved?
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Wondering what immigration has to do with EVEL? Is immigration going to be devolved?
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Unfortunately not.
It remains in the hands of paranoid xenophobes.
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Some journos are speculating that a red-blooded EVEL, or an English parliament, would speed up the break-up of the union, and lead to Scots independence. Hallo, hallo, do I hear you say that the SNP tactic over fox-hunting might be calculated to wind up the Tories, so that they go for a more hard-line EVEL, thus leading to union-end, and Scotland-beginning?
Surely that would be very cynical? Well, it is being circulated in the bars and dives of what used to be called Fleet Street. We live in interesting times. Machiavelli lives!
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Some journos are speculating that a red-blooded EVEL, or an English parliament, would speed up the break-up of the union, and lead to Scots independence. Hallo, hallo, do I hear you say that the SNP tactic over fox-hunting might be calculated to wind up the Tories, so that they go for a more hard-line EVEL, thus leading to union-end, and Scotland-beginning?
Surely that would be very cynical? Well, it is being circulated in the bars and dives of what used to be called Fleet Street. We live in interesting times. Machiavelli lives!
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There was bound to be a confrontation sooner rather than later,Wiggs. Fox hunting wouldn't have been the one I'd have chosen, but, with tacticians like Angus Robertson or Stuart Hosie in charge of SNP at Westminster, it doesn't surprise me that they are causing a stooshie. After all, the Holyrood elections are next year, and SNP want to capitalise on our destruction of Labour up here, so need to keep the momentum going for a few months yet.
Besides, Labour, both north and south of the border, is leaderless, and SNP are providing a more robust opposition than what's left of Labour in Westminster.
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I suggest the amount needed would be enormous,
I suggest you have no more idea how much it would cost than I do.
We would still need to spend large amounts to monitor just who is coming in, bearing in mind the terrorist threat.
We are already paying those large amounts and it's made harder because so many people feel the need to sneak in.
Furthermore, I would suggest that the terrorist threat from people who are already citizens is higher than that from immigrants if past attacks are anything to go by.
I only "suggested" the amount might be enormous, and since you admit you don't know, it makes your whole point merely academic.
As to your second point about terrorists in the UK, again it is no more than a surmise, unless you have some evidence.
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Unfortunately not.
It remains in the hands of paranoid xenophobes.
Given that the border between Scotland and the rest of the UK has no controls on it, immigration has to be a UK wide thing.
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Some journos are speculating that a red-blooded EVEL, or an English parliament, would speed up the break-up of the union, and lead to Scots independence. Hallo, hallo, do I hear you say that the SNP tactic over fox-hunting might be calculated to wind up the Tories, so that they go for a more hard-line EVEL, thus leading to union-end, and Scotland-beginning?
Surely that would be very cynical? Well, it is being circulated in the bars and dives of what used to be called Fleet Street. We live in interesting times. Machiavelli lives!
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There was bound to be a confrontation sooner rather than later,Wiggs. Fox hunting wouldn't have been the one I'd have chosen, but, with tacticians like Angus Robertson or Stuart Hosie in charge of SNP at Westminster, it doesn't surprise me that they are causing a stooshie. After all, the Holyrood elections are next year, and SNP want to capitalise on our destruction of Labour up here, so need to keep the momentum going for a few months yet.
Besides, Labour, both north and south of the border, is leaderless, and SNP are providing a more robust opposition than what's left of Labour in Westminster.
Yes, Jim, Labour are still sobbing under the duvet, and writing notes in their diary, 'why does nobody love me?'
There are so many factors in play now, it makes me dizzy. The right wing Tories almost seem to be saying to Cameron, get rid of the Tartan horde; the SNP are retaliating against Cameron's apparently deliberate rebuffs, e.g. on the Scotland Bill, and possibly the fox-hunting debacle is laying down the gauntlet. Cameron is in an odd position, as he would probably love to really insult the SNP, and bring in a hardline EVEL, but also, he doesn't want to go down as the PM who broke up the union. Also, they are useful as a scapegoat. May you live in interesting times!
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Unfortunately not.
It remains in the hands of paranoid xenophobes.
Given that the border between Scotland and the rest of the UK has no controls on it, immigration has to be a UK wide thing.
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Sorry - but the westminster inhuman treatment of asylum seekers is abhorrant.
Dungavel detention centre in Lanarkshire is a prime example.
It is outside Holyrood's remit - even though decent, right minded humanitarian politicians from SNP, Labour, the Lib Dems , greens and independents want our parliament to have oversight.
Guess which bunch of reactionaries don't?
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/apr/21/religious-and-refugee-groups-denied-access-to-dungavel-immigration-centre
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Looks like there will be a series of confrontations with the SNP challenging the Conservatives around EVEL, the next being assisted dying.
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Looks like there will be a series of confrontations with the SNP challenging the Conservatives around EVEL, the next being assisted dying.
Yes, while Labour have the traditional nervous breakdown after an election defeat, the SNP are doing the opposition thing. It's difficult to know who is needling who really. Some say the SNP want to needle Cameron into a tough EVEL, thus expediting the break-up of the union; and some say, that Cameron wants to needle the SNP. Most journos favour the former, but I'm not sure. The third option is that it's the normal cock-up by everybody. SNAFU.
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Looks like there will be a series of confrontations with the SNP challenging the Conservatives around EVEL, the next being assisted dying.
Yes, while Labour have the traditional nervous breakdown after an election defeat, the SNP are doing the opposition thing. It's difficult to know who is needling who really. Some say the SNP want to needle Cameron into a tough EVEL, thus expediting the break-up of the union; and some say, that Cameron wants to needle the SNP. Most journos favour the former, but I'm not sure. The third option is that it's the normal cock-up by everybody. SNAFU.
Needling each other for the SNP and Tories here is in short term a win win for both. If they didn't their supporters would wonder why. There is a small downside for the SNP in this that if they get seen as merely playing political opposition for the sakeof it, it could have an effect on those who are voting for them as a sort of replacement for Scottish Labour without wanting independence (but even there some will like it if they are just ornery).
For the Tories, the only real downside is whether in the long term it does lead to the end of the Union and, there are a number who won't mind it. An EVEL solution which could be shown to be affecting the Scottish budget and/or legislation in some ways as a knock on, which is the 'extreme form, would be a gift to the anyone wanting independence.
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Looks like there will be a series of confrontations with the SNP challenging the Conservatives around EVEL, the next being assisted dying.
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Hmmmmmm;
I wouldn't be very happy with that - assisted dying is a matter on which Holyrood has debated legislation thrice - and, regrettably, rejected it on all three occasions.
Whatever E&W decide on the matter has no impact on Scotland (unless there is cross-border traffic dependant on each nation's policy)
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Looks like there will be a series of confrontations with the SNP challenging the Conservatives around EVEL, the next being assisted dying.
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Hmmmmmm;
I wouldn't be very happy with that - assisted dying is a matter on which Holyrood has debated legislation thrice - and, regrettably, rejected it on all three occasions.
Whatever E&W decide on the matter has no impact on Scotland (unless there is cross-border traffic dependant on each nation's policy)
I think there is another problem - assisted dying will be I think a completely free vote - it won't be a govt bill.
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Sorry - but the westminster inhuman treatment of asylum seekers is abhorrant.
Dungavel detention centre in Lanarkshire is a prime example.
It is outside Holyrood's remit - even though decent, right minded humanitarian politicians from SNP, Labour, the Lib Dems , greens and independents want our parliament to have oversight.
Guess which bunch of reactionaries don't?
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/apr/21/religious-and-refugee-groups-denied-access-to-dungavel-immigration-centre
I wasn't speaking about the current government's immigration policy but about the principle of who runs the immigration policy. As long as people can move freely across the border between England and Scotland, there has to be a nationwide (nation as in UK) immigration policy.
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Looks like there will be a series of confrontations with the SNP challenging the Conservatives around EVEL, the next being assisted dying.
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Hmmmmmm;
I wouldn't be very happy with that - assisted dying is a matter on which Holyrood has debated legislation thrice - and, regrettably, rejected it on all three occasions.
Whatever E&W decide on the matter has no impact on Scotland (unless there is cross-border traffic dependant on each nation's policy)
I think there is another problem - assisted dying will be I think a completely free vote - it won't be a govt bill.
Rob Marris has a private members bill (taking up Falconers bid from the last parliament). Cameron is against it and the suggestion is that the SNP vote for it as a block - it would be a free vote if it gets enough time.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-33060795
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Looks like there will be a series of confrontations with the SNP challenging the Conservatives around EVEL, the next being assisted dying.
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Hmmmmmm;
I wouldn't be very happy with that - assisted dying is a matter on which Holyrood has debated legislation thrice - and, regrettably, rejected it on all three occasions.
Whatever E&W decide on the matter has no impact on Scotland (unless there is cross-border traffic dependant on each nation's policy)
I think there is another problem - assisted dying will be I think a completely free vote - it won't be a govt bill.
Rob Marris has a private members bill (taking up Falconers bid from the last parliament). Cameron is against it and the suggestion is that the SNP vote for it as a block - it would be a free vote if it gets enough time.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-33060795
But that's why I see it as a problem - it will be a free vote and a conscience one - it won't be an en bloc vote from the SNP for that reason, nor should it be.
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And just to add to that - as Jim has noted it has been voted down in the Scottish Parliament, most recently this year, and that is a parliament where the SNP have a majority. The idea of voting en bloc on this won't fly.
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Yep. Whatever the SNP are, they are not naive enough to vote for something in Westminster which a majority of their own MSPs voted against in a free vote in Holyrood.
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This won through in the commons I see, hurrah!
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Just another Tory body swerve as Cameron runs around Europe like a headless chicken trying to fix the mess he has caused.
What mess are we talking about?
That would be the 'mess' whereby the UK has achieved record low unemployment and a recovering economy I assume.
And growing inequality, rampant tax avoidance from the corporate world and lower median wages - unemployment's down, but so are living standards.
The mess we are talking about is the hodge-podge of partial federalisation that happened when some regions got an extra tier of government whilst others didn't: whether you think that Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and London should have gained devolved parliaments/assemblies or not, the fact that the English regions didn't at the same time means you have a blatant inequality.
O.
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Fair enough, or you could have said, oh right Gonnagle that mess which Cameron ignored until Farage starting giving him a headache.
I see it more as an opportunity than a problem. I don't know how much money we spend each year trying to keep Johnny Foreigner out of our emerald isle set in a silver sea, but it doesn't seem very effective and everything might be better if we spent that money on making sure they settle in here properly.
I suggest the amount needed would be enormous, and far out-reach what we may now be shelling out. We would still need to spend large amounts to monitor just who is coming in, bearing in mind the terrorist threat.
More effective still to invest the money in the places these people are coming from to make them want to stay their in the first place.
O.
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The mess we are talking about is the hodge-podge of partial federalisation that happened when some regions got an extra tier of government whilst others didn't: whether you think that Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and London should have gained devolved parliaments/assemblies or not, the fact that the English regions didn't at the same time means you have a blatant inequality.
O.
Yet several areas of England were offered chances to have a form of English devolution and turned it down in referenda.
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More effective still to invest the money in the places these people are coming from to make them want to stay their in the first place.
O.
Which, of course, the UK has been doing ever since the Syrian situation started and before.
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More effective still to invest the money in the places these people are coming from to make them want to stay their in the first place.
O.
Which, of course, the UK has been doing ever since the Syrian situation started and before.
It has, absolutely, far more than anyone else, so far as I can see.
O.
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It has, absolutely, far more than anyone else, so far as I can see.
O.
And it has been this that has got me somewhat annoyed with all the accusations that this government (and the last, if not the last 2) hasn't been pulling its weight in regard to the Syrian refugee crisis - especially when that has come from our European colleagues.
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I can't believe a government has painted itself into so many corners in as little time.........EVEL,Tax credit cuts, voter registration.
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How can you talk about the house of Lords not honouring tradition while in the same breath diminish the status of Non English MP's?
I think the narrative of ''do anything...they won't complain'' is unravelling a bit.