Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => Politics & Current Affairs => Topic started by: Hope on July 22, 2015, 01:29:02 PM
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In view of the poll that puts Jeremy Corbin as leading in the race, is there any chance of a 1980s-style split in the party, the last time Labour moved as left-wing as Mr Corbin might likely take the party, a split that saw the SDP coming into being?
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In view of the poll that puts Jeremy Corbin as leading in the race, is there any chance of a 1980s-style split in the party, the last time Labour moved as left-wing as Mr Corbin might likely take the party, a split that saw the SDP coming into being?
If he wins, yes but it is a much harder road to hoe now, any split is likely as per the SDP to be flanked by a Lib Dem/UkIp pincer movement. The costs are much greater than they were in the 80s when a big card file would have worked. I think in the short term some form of protest would be more likely in an attempt to overthrow Corbyn (whom I quite like but disagree with).
Whoever wins will lose longer term. Better to be leader in 2025, only way Labour get in 2020 is if Tories do something to lose it
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Whoever is elected, they have a horrendous job trying to convince the voters that the Labour Party has any vestige of principle left.
They're a party looking for a spine so the shiver can climb up it.
Here's a brilliant valediction of Labour from the Wee Ginger Dug.
https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2015/07/21/the-party-which-ran-away/
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I'd wager that Corbin is Cameron's preferred candidate - it's as if Labour had a death wish.
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Firstly, I think NS is right in that the only way Labour could win 2020 would be for the Tories to lose it. In fact the political wisdom states that parties rarely win elections but only do so by being the least worse one going. That said, the state of the political milieu these days could mean 2020 is up for grabs.
Yvette Cooper sounds as vacuous and as plastic as Ed Miliband. Andy Burnham comes a cross as the usual political animal and sounds like a safe dull bet. Liz Kendall is the keen puppy dog who is making bold moves but could fizzle out and sounds too much like a Tory. All three are just trying to adjust their sails to suit what they see as where the wind is blowing but have no personal convictions and ideas of their own, and are in effect trying to 'buy' their way into No. 10.
The only one coming across as 'real' is Jeremy Corbyn and with the likes of austerity and the Greek type anger at this he may be the one who could attract a good portion of the people to him. Sadly it is mainly the Party and party machine that will decide and they tend to be more in the other threes' bubble. If he does manage to win it then we could see meltdown within the Labour party but with the people behind him and the party.
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Given the successful Tory spin machine would make any candidate into the worse possible candidate it might as well be Jeremy Corbyn.
In any case the tories haven't been voted back for their obligatory 3 terms so again they might as well have Jeremy. By the time the tories have finished with the country we will be needing another Attlee rather than another Blair. Corbyn though is neither.
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On the subject of 2020, there will be a set of boundary changes which will make the Tories much stronger than in 2015. On that alone a Labour win is almost impossible. However, there is the referendum omn Europe which is a game changer - though I can't see any party other than UKIP benefitting much from that, and they won;t be big enough. There is a chance that we could seea split in both main parties after it so who knows but in general other than having to sink the money for 4 years - the Tories at 5/2 on as the largest party at 2020 are a safe bet.
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The reality of elections in the UK is that they are won in the centre ground. The Comservatives understand this.
Labour has to keep reminding itself of this fact because it suffers from a chronic medium-term memory problem. It has forgotten the Foot/Kinnock years.
Tony Blair understood this and was successful. In general, his government was successful and acceptable. That he is reviled today is nothing to do with his ability to govern but because he made a foolish friendship with an idiot.
If Corbyn becomes party leader then he will see national support drift away. This may be exacerbated by UKIP's apparent attractiveness to a significant portion of the uneducated working and lower-middle class segment of its support base.
If Corbyn becomes party leader, watch Osborne's face: I have seen the future and it smarms.
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The reality of elections in the UK is that they are won in the centre ground. The Comservatives understand this.
Labour has to keep reminding itself of this fact because it suffers from a chronic medium-term memory problem. It has forgotten the Foot/Kinnock years.
Tony Blair understood this and was successful. In general, his government was successful and acceptable. That he is reviled today is nothing to do with his ability to govern but because he made a foolish friendship with an idiot.
If Corbyn becomes party leader then he will see national support drift away. This may be exacerbated by UKIP's apparent attractiveness to a significant portion of the uneducated working and lower-middle class segment of its support base.
If Corbyn becomes party leader, watch Osborne's face: I have seen the future and it smarms.
Except the 'centre ground' is not a real thing - it implies that there is a thing which is constant - it's not. Politics is too simplistically defined by this fairly vacuous left/right split - which is part of the reason the Labour party screwed up in reacting to UKIP. The battle for 2020 is between George/Boris/Teresa - and what happens in Scotland and Europe. The Labour party under the bastard love child of Jesus/Mohammed/Messi would lose unless the Tories commit some form of auto-da-fe.
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The reality of elections in the UK is that they are won in the centre ground. The Comservatives understand this.
Labour has to keep reminding itself of this fact because it suffers from a chronic medium-term memory problem. It has forgotten the Foot/Kinnock years.
Tony Blair understood this and was successful. In general, his government was successful and acceptable. That he is reviled today is nothing to do with his ability to govern but because he made a foolish friendship with an idiot.
If Corbyn becomes party leader then he will see national support drift away. This may be exacerbated by UKIP's apparent attractiveness to a significant portion of the uneducated working and lower-middle class segment of its support base.
If Corbyn becomes party leader, watch Osborne's face: I have seen the future and it smarms.
Labour have no chance under any leader at the moment. Those who voted Tory will do so next time no matter how shafted they get because of a stubborn refusal to admit on was wrong.
Other than that George Osborne gets further to the right of centre ground by the week so, if your theory is correct Osborne should lose......Unless you really mean that the centre ground is wherever it is spun.
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Labour seem a pointless party now, except as a support group to the Tory party. They are certainly a total shambles right now, and probably in the next couple of years. I think they are still suffering from a post-Blair nervous breakdown, but any solution seems tedious to me.
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Labour seem a pointless party now, except as a support group to the Tory party. They are certainly a total shambles right now, and probably in the next couple of years. I think they are still suffering from a post-Blair nervous breakdown, but any solution seems tedious to me.
It's one of the reasons I struggle with all the abstaining stuff they are doing - it would be easier just to say NO to the Tories - this trying to look 'responsible' while arguing against the position you are taking and having major rebellions in opposition just looks weak.
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Labour seem a pointless party now, except as a support group to the Tory party. They are certainly a total shambles right now, and probably in the next couple of years. I think they are still suffering from a post-Blair nervous breakdown, but any solution seems tedious to me.
It's one of the reasons I struggle with all the abstaining stuff they are doing - it would be easier just to say NO to the Tories - this trying to look 'responsible' while arguing against the position you are taking and having major rebellions in opposition just looks weak.
Yes, I found Harman's argument quite strange. She seemed to be saying that Labour should be appealing to the people who voted Tory, not the people who voted Labour. The trouble with that argument is that they may find that the latter start to shrink! Well, Tory-lite satisfies nobody - except the Tories.
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While I have to confess, Blair is not my favourite politician - I can't fault his analysis of the current situation:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-33619645
"He recalled the 1979 election, when Labour adopted "the theory that the electorate is stupid" and responded to a Conservative victory by moving to the left, going on to lose three more elections.
'Back to the 1980s'
May's election was "out of the playbook of the 1980s" with the Conservatives seen as the party of economic competence and Labour of compassion, he said, adding that the party should avoid repeating past defeats by occupying the centre ground of politics."
It seems incredible to me that Labour can't see the bleeding obvious
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It is quite funny watching Nu Labour people pooping their pants over Corbyn's showing so far. "But, but, but, our natural allies are the Tories, not left-wing people."
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only way Labour get in 2020 is if Tories do something to lose it
To my eyes the Tories are doing a pretty good job of making themselves really unpopular.
This is all depressingly familiar. Last time, Gordon Brown resigned and they took months to elect Miliband. In the meantime, Her Majesty's Opposition was absent without official leave. Now, the same thing is happening again and this time there isn't anybody in the government to curb the worst excesses of Cameron's mob.
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... this trying to look 'responsible' while arguing against the position you are taking and having major rebellions in opposition just looks weak.
It's simply reinforcing the fact that they are weak - not just that it looks weak.
In a way, Ed M completely missed the boat - pulling the party away from the centre towards the left, but into a non-man's land somewhere in between the two, where there are very few Labour supporters.
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It is quite funny watching Nu Labour people pooping their pants over Corbyn's showing so far. "But, but, but, our natural allies are the Tories, not left-wing people."
I'd say it's a bit more fundamental than that.
While there might be people on the Celtic fringes who still have the Socialist dream, the English electorate have no such illusions. They want a centre-right government to give them the prosperity that they know is possible.
If the Labour party can't get their head around that, they are finished.
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I'd say it's a bit more fundamental than that.
While there might be people on the Celtic fringes who still have the Socialist dream, the English electorate have no such illusions. They want a centre-right government to give them the prosperity that they know is possible.
If the Labour party can't get their head around that, they are finished.
I think the problem Labour has nowadays is that many of their original natural supporters have moved away from that economic level to higher ones, with greater ambition to succeed, thus bringing them into the sphere of the Tories' policies. Prior to May I would have said that their only 'block' of votes would be in S. Wales, Northern England and Scotland, but even that last is no loger guaranteed. It is interesting to listen to staunch Labour supporters in S. Wales moaning about the paucity of the Labour Government in Cardiff.
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I'd say it's a bit more fundamental than that.
While there might be people on the Celtic fringes who still have the Socialist dream, the English electorate have no such illusions. They want a centre-right government to give them the prosperity that they know is possible.
If the Labour party can't get their head around that, they are finished.
I think the problem Labour has nowadays is that many of their original natural supporters have moved away from that economic level to higher ones, with greater ambition to succeed, thus bringing them into the sphere of the Tories' policies. Prior to May I would have said that their only 'block' of votes would be in S. Wales, Northern England and Scotland, but even that last is no loger guaranteed. It is interesting to listen to staunch Labour supporters in S. Wales moaning about the paucity of the Labour Government in Cardiff.
I would say that barring unforeseen circumstances or major gaffs - this government will deliver prosperity for the masses - which would leave a left wing Labour party well and truly in the wilderness.
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I'd say it's a bit more fundamental than that.
While there might be people on the Celtic fringes who still have the Socialist dream, the English electorate have no such illusions. They want a centre-right government to give them the prosperity that they know is possible.
If the Labour party can't get their head around that, they are finished.
I think the problem Labour has nowadays is that many of their original natural supporters have moved away from that economic level to higher ones, with greater ambition to succeed, thus bringing them into the sphere of the Tories' policies. Prior to May I would have said that their only 'block' of votes would be in S. Wales, Northern England and Scotland, but even that last is no loger guaranteed. It is interesting to listen to staunch Labour supporters in S. Wales moaning about the paucity of the Labour Government in Cardiff.
I would say that barring unforeseen circumstances or major gaffs - this government will deliver prosperity for the masses - which would leave a left wing Labour party well and truly in the wilderness.
And how is prosperity going to be delivered to the masses?
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I'd say it's a bit more fundamental than that.
While there might be people on the Celtic fringes who still have the Socialist dream, the English electorate have no such illusions. They want a centre-right government to give them the prosperity that they know is possible.
If the Labour party can't get their head around that, they are finished.
I think the problem Labour has nowadays is that many of their original natural supporters have moved away from that economic level to higher ones, with greater ambition to succeed, thus bringing them into the sphere of the Tories' policies. Prior to May I would have said that their only 'block' of votes would be in S. Wales, Northern England and Scotland, but even that last is no loger guaranteed. It is interesting to listen to staunch Labour supporters in S. Wales moaning about the paucity of the Labour Government in Cardiff.
I would say that barring unforeseen circumstances or major gaffs - this government will deliver prosperity for the masses - which would leave a left wing Labour party well and truly in the wilderness.
I assume that is a tongue-in-cheek comment.
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And how is prosperity going to be delivered to the masses?
Probably through a growth in meaningful jobs, and a rise in wages (the latter has already begun to happen according to all the experts)
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In view of the poll that puts Jeremy Corbin as leading in the race, is there any chance of a 1980s-style split in the party, the last time Labour moved as left-wing as Mr Corbin might likely take the party, a split that saw the SDP coming into being?
If Labour doesn't wish to be elected again for a very long time Corbin is the right person to lead the party! ::) I think Yvette Cooper would be the best person to head up Labour.
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[It's simply reinforcing the fact that they are weak - not just that it looks weak.
In a way, Ed M completely missed the boat - pulling the party away from the centre towards the left, but into a non-man's land somewhere in between the two, where there are very few Labour supporters.
I think the whole idea of Red Ed is a media creation, he made a couple of vaguely sounding left noises, not much specific and where it was it generally polled well. Remember in Scotland they lost votes for being percieved as not being left enough.
It's more about mood music. The Tories have succesfully portrayed the crash as Labour's fault and teh deficit as entirely Labour's creation. It's going to be difficult for Labour to fight back against that unless the Tories do something that is perceived as a giant mistake by most of teh electorate - this side of the 2020 election, the only likely issue to cause that will be the European referendum
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Labour have a choice of being tory lite or going to the left and keep some shred of respect and they are going to win anything going tory lite.
The tories are taking the center ground so labour have no other way to go.
UKIP and the scarey lab/snp rhetoric gave the tories power which was well played by Cameron and co but I don't think the country has taken a massive swing to the left luck has let the tories in and once the country wakes up to the rob from the poor and give the rich tax breaks routine they will get voted out again. :)
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It depends on whether Osborne can deliver affluence for the majority for 5 years. If he can, Labour haven't a chance, whoever the leader is. Of course, within that affluence, there are potential disasters waiting to happen, e.g. the lack of housing is becoming a catastrophe, the EU vote, rising poverty, so who knows. Plus lots of smoke and mirrors to cover stuff up, but that is normal politics.
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It depends on whether Osborne can deliver affluence for the majority for 5 years. If he can, Labour haven't a chance, whoever the leader is. Of course, within that affluence, there are potential disasters waiting to happen, e.g. the lack of housing is becoming a catastrophe, the EU vote, rising poverty, so who knows. Plus lots of smoke and mirrors to cover stuff up, but that is normal politics.
Five years is a long time, and as Harold MacMillan once famously warned us to bear in mind, "Events, dear boy: events!"
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It depends on whether Osborne can deliver affluence for the majority for 5 years. If he can, Labour haven't a chance, whoever the leader is. Of course, within that affluence, there are potential disasters waiting to happen, e.g. the lack of housing is becoming a catastrophe, the EU vote, rising poverty, so who knows. Plus lots of smoke and mirrors to cover stuff up, but that is normal politics.
They have signalled that more land will be available for housing and if they can do that, the housing market will improve. Unless other EU leaders are completely intransigent, there is no reason why Cameron shouldn't get a package that will deliver a Yes vote and if they can keep the economy on track, there will be more better paid jobs.
At least I'm pretty sure that is the plan and if they can achieve it, they will take a lot of beating - however, even if they fall short, they will still win against Corbin. They would probably have won the last election if UNITE hadn't given them the wrong Miliband.
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It has to be either Burnham or Cooper. With Burnham seems to be more of the same; with Cooper it might be a way of letting dear old Ed have influence!
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It has to be either Burnham or Cooper. With Burnham seems to be more of the same; with Cooper it might be a way of letting dear old Ed have influence!
Burnham is a bit 'wooden' and very Old Labour (though at least he's not a Michael Foot clone). Cooper looks right and says sensible things but would need to up her game quite a bit.
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It has to be either Burnham or Cooper. With Burnham seems to be more of the same; with Cooper it might be a way of letting dear old Ed have influence!
Burnham is a bit 'wooden' and very Old Labour (though at least he's not a Michael Foot clone). Cooper looks right and says sensible things but would need to up her game quite a bit.
Not sure Cooper can up her game.
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It has to be either Burnham or Cooper. With Burnham seems to be more of the same; with Cooper it might be a way of letting dear old Ed have influence!
Balls?
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It has to be either Burnham or Cooper. With Burnham seems to be more of the same; with Cooper it might be a way of letting dear old Ed have influence!
Balls?
I reckon that's probably the comment that sums it all up! :)
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It depends on whether Osborne can deliver affluence for the majority for 5 years. If he can, Labour haven't a chance, whoever the leader is. Of course, within that affluence, there are potential disasters waiting to happen, e.g. the lack of housing is becoming a catastrophe, the EU vote, rising poverty, so who knows. Plus lots of smoke and mirrors to cover stuff up, but that is normal politics.
I thought the magic figure of making people feel affluent is 40%.
I think that's way too high for George but he has the knack of promising Jam tomorrow and getting away with it.
Big problem for Georg is the minimum wage......can he/will he deliver? and his small present majority.
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It depends on whether Osborne can deliver affluence for the majority for 5 years. If he can, Labour haven't a chance, whoever the leader is. Of course, within that affluence, there are potential disasters waiting to happen, e.g. the lack of housing is becoming a catastrophe, the EU vote, rising poverty, so who knows. Plus lots of smoke and mirrors to cover stuff up, but that is normal politics.
They have signalled that more land will be available for housing and if they can do that, the housing market will improve. Unless other EU leaders are completely intransigent, there is no reason why Cameron shouldn't get a package that will deliver a Yes vote and if they can keep the economy on track, there will be more better paid jobs.
At least I'm pretty sure that is the plan and if they can achieve it, they will take a lot of beating - however, even if they fall short, they will still win against Corbin. They would probably have won the last election if UNITE hadn't given them the wrong Miliband.
But it will still be fingers crossed as it was with Miliband. Nobody not least the Conservatives understood the electorate. Now the tories are being volatile in government vis-a-vis decisions on foreign and economic policy they won't be sure it won't rub off on the electorate.
There are two factors which Margaret Thatcher had and Osborne doesn't.
1: There isn't a fear of socialism that existed in Thatcher's early terms
2: If Corbyn can appear more decisive, that satisfies those
who like decisiveness.
Also Corbyn is not ''Miliband Weird''. Something that swayed the weaker minded last time.
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I'd say it's a bit more fundamental than that.
While there might be people on the Celtic fringes who still have the Socialist dream, the English electorate have no such illusions. They want a centre-right government to give them the prosperity that they know is possible.
If the Labour party can't get their head around that, they are finished.
I think the problem Labour has nowadays is that many of their original natural supporters have moved away from that economic level to higher ones, with greater ambition to succeed, thus bringing them into the sphere of the Tories' policies. Prior to May I would have said that their only 'block' of votes would be in S. Wales, Northern England and Scotland, but even that last is no loger guaranteed. It is interesting to listen to staunch Labour supporters in S. Wales moaning about the paucity of the Labour Government in Cardiff.
But there is a move now downwards from the 'higher ones'. This is why Corbyn is doing well with the grass roots.
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It has to be either Burnham or Cooper. With Burnham seems to be more of the same; with Cooper it might be a way of letting dear old Ed have influence!
Burnham is a bit 'wooden' and very Old Labour (though at least he's not a Michael Foot clone). Cooper looks right and says sensible things but would need to up her game quite a bit.
Not sure Cooper can up her game.
I agree, she's got no balls - if you see what I mean?
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Also Corbyn is not ''Miliband Weird''. Something that swayed the weaker minded last time.
No - he's a recycled Michael Foot!
They say that Conservatives are joining the Labour party just to vote for him! - How stupid would a Labour supporter have to be to vote for the man?
I'm not a great fan of Labour but I would like to see a functioning opposition.
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Also Corbyn is not ''Miliband Weird''. Something that swayed the weaker minded last time.
No - he's a recycled Michael Foot!
They say that Conservatives are joining the Labour party just to vote for him! - How stupid would a Labour supporter have to be to vote for the man?
I'm not a great fan of Labour but I would like to see a functioning opposition.
But nobody remembers Michael Foot. If Corbyn is a bit edgy and a bit ballsy he could have 'bad boy' appeal.
He already has the power to make tories shit it a little as exemplified by your silly posts.
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Also Corbyn is not ''Miliband Weird''. Something that swayed the weaker minded last time.
No - he's a recycled Michael Foot!
They say that Conservatives are joining the Labour party just to vote for him! - How stupid would a Labour supporter have to be to vote for the man?
I'm not a great fan of Labour but I would like to see a functioning opposition.
But nobody remembers Michael Foot. If Corbyn is a bit edgy and a bit ballsy he could have 'bad boy' appeal.
He already has the power to make tories shit it a little as exemplified by your silly posts.
Those who forget 'Michael Foot' are doomed to repeat it :)
I think Corbyn has the power to make the Tories piss themselves laughing.
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Also Corbyn is not ''Miliband Weird''. Something that swayed the weaker minded last time.
No - he's a recycled Michael Foot!
They say that Conservatives are joining the Labour party just to vote for him! - How stupid would a Labour supporter have to be to vote for the man?
I'm not a great fan of Labour but I would like to see a functioning opposition.
But nobody remembers Michael Foot. If Corbyn is a bit edgy and a bit ballsy he could have 'bad boy' appeal.
He already has the power to make tories shit it a little as exemplified by your silly posts.
Those who forget 'Michael Foot' are doomed to repeat it :)
I think Corbyn has the power to make the Tories piss themselves laughing.
No Tory Govt was elected for 23 years, tiny minority, Prosperity predicated on 2 years prior to the election, remember?........so......''Arseholes clenched''.
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Absolutely unbelievable:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-33745731
Just like a re-run of the 80's :)
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What's unbelievable about it? Excellent news :)
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What's unbelievable about it? Excellent news :)
For Cameron - sure it is!
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Just like a re-run of the 80's :)
Actually, it's more like a rerun of last time where labour was paralysed for several months.
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Just like a re-run of the 80's :)
Actually, it's more like a rerun of last time where labour was paralysed for several months.
If Corbyn is elected, I think the situation would be an uncannily similarity to the election of Michael Foot.
i.e. Labour veering to the Left and becoming totally unelectable - causing a split with the moderates.
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What's unbelievable about it? Excellent news :)
For Cameron - sure it is!
The political landscape could have changed by then. People are getting the whiff of the elites and how they are sucking society dry. By then Corbyn could be in vogue, with UKIP and the Greens and perhaps independents.
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- causing a split with the moderates.
Could be - and at the grassroots a substantial proportion leaving to support UKIP.
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What's unbelievable about it? Excellent news :)
For Cameron - sure it is!
The political landscape could have changed by then. People are getting the whiff of the elites and how they are sucking society dry. By then Corbyn could be in vogue, with UKIP and the Greens and perhaps independents.
Dear Jack Knave,
Yes I think that is happening, the times they are a changing.
I have only listened to one interview from this Corbyn guy but he seems to be a very down to earth kind of person.
We need to step away from old ways of thinking/talking, calling some one a socialist or he is far right, people are far more complex.
In the run up to the last election I heard some brilliant ideas from all the parties, politicians should step away from, my way or the highway.
One word that I am hearing more often, Corbyn and some of his supporters use it, Compassion, the Tory party need to look this word up in the dictionary but then they are far to busy conning the British public.
Gonnagle.
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Well, Gonners, Nu Labour and the Tories between them have broken up the union. Should we cry or laugh? Have a drink, old boy.
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Well, Gonners, Nu Labour and the Tories between them have broken up the union. Should we cry or laugh? Have a drink, old boy.
My analysis would be slightly different wiggi.
In a way it would have been better if Scotland had got independence; they would have been forced to confront the problems of a modern state. In the end they would have ended up having to do all the things that they have pilloried Westminster for doing.
But they would have probably trashed their economy during the 'learning curve'.
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Dear Lapsed,
Learning curve, we have done that, for decades we have watched what not to do.
I am not for Independence but the question for me was never about could we but should we.
Scotland is a small nation but with great potential, forget oil, Scotland on its own with tourism, whisky, forestry and not forgeting the most innovative minds this world has ever seen, I have no doubt Scotland would flourish.
We are better together once we get rid of old thinking especially from that anti Christian, anti British party we have in power at the moment.
BTW are you enjoying the Calais scandal, millions of pounds to keep the swarm out. >:(
Gonnagle.
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Scotland is a small nation but with great potential, forget oil, Scotland on its own with tourism, whisky, forestry and not forgeting the most innovative minds this world has ever seen, I have no doubt Scotland would flourish.
I agree with all that Gonnagle, (though personally, I wouldn't forget the oil) but at the moment Scots can blame all their ills on the Westminster government - If a Scottish government had total economic freedom they would be faced with a dilemma: back-track and keep doing pretty much what they doing now or wreck their economy.
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BTW are you enjoying the Calais scandal, millions of pounds to keep the swarm out.
Not sure what your point is on this complex issue. Clearly the UK is a desirable destination for migrants. Clearly it would be less desirable if there were less jobs, but I don't think many people would consider that a good solution.
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Dear Lapsed,
The point being is that this country can take more migrants, the point being that we are ill equipped to handle more migrants because of Tory failures.
I also find it hard to get my head around that the kings of austerity can find man power and money to throw at this problem.
Oh and sorry, forgetting my manners, good morning old son :)
Gonnagle.
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Dear Lapsed,
The point being is that this country can take more migrants, the point being that we are ill equipped to handle more migrants because of Tory failures.
I also find it hard to get my head around that the kings of austerity can find man power and money to throw at this problem.
Oh and sorry, forgetting my manners, good morning old son :)
Gonnagle.
Good morning Gonnagle,
I think there are several aspects to this problem and just opening the doors to all and sundry would not be a good solution. A large proportion are economic migrants and if it were possible, a large proportion of the Third World would like to jump on that banfwaggon.
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Dear Lapsed,
Oh don't get me wrong, I am not advocating a open door policy, but because of Tory and Labour failures we must be seen to redress those failures.
All I can see is, we are reaping what we have sown, I don't see any government official actually talking to the migrants directly, I don't see any government help in easing the plight of what we are whimsically calling the jungle.
I do know that this is not just a British problem, it must be the whole EU working together, trouble is Cameron running around trying to fix problems that he was warned about years ago.
Gonnagle.
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Gonnagle, most of these people have endured terrible suffering to escape war-zones and persecution to find a 'safe haven' - up to that point I can have tremendous sympathy for them.
However, having finally safely landed in Europe do they seek asylum in the 'first safe country' they come to - as the Geneva convention states? No, they obviously think that they can get a better deal by travelling illegally to the UK - and at that point my sympathy wears rather thin.
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Dear Lapsed,
Fair enough, I am under contract not to judge and I did come through the last election with some sympathy for the millions who voted for UKIP, something pushed them to that decision.
But I don't see any empathy, compassion directed towards those living in appalling conditions in what we call the jungle, we don't have to shout come and join us but surely us and the rest of the EU can do something to say we understand.
Just a thought, why not unleash those pesky Bible thumpers on them, I am sure the CoE and the CoS would love to get their hands on them, hell! the Sally Ann would sort them out in a jiff, it's what they do.
Gonnagle.
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I agree that it's a problem that really needs an EU joint approach - but if Cameron is seen to 'cave in' to EU demands to take migrants - the 'Xenophobic Tendency' would have a field-day and a referendum OUT vote would be the likely outcome.
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Dear Lapsed,
Fair enough, I am under contract not to judge and I did come through the last election with some sympathy for the millions who voted for UKIP, something pushed them to that decision.
But I don't see any empathy, compassion directed towards those living in appalling conditions in what we call the jungle, we don't have to shout come and join us but surely us and the rest of the EU can do something to say we understand.
Just a thought, why not unleash those pesky Bible thumpers on them, I am sure the CoE and the CoS would love to get their hands on them, hell! the Sally Ann would sort them out in a jiff, it's what they do.
Gonnagle.
Various Faith groups are out there and giving a lot of material help.
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This has probably been mentioned on here before but Corbyn is starting to looking like the Left's Farage....?
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This has probably been mentioned on here before but Corbyn is starting to looking like the Left's Farage....?
How so? Farage is a buffoon and a greasy clown with the exact appearance and all the charm, allure and charisma of a late-middle-aged used car dealer from Romford; since the death of Tony Benn and with the decrepitude of Dennis Skinner, Corbyn is one of the few conviction politicians left in Parliament.
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This has probably been mentioned on here before but Corbyn is starting to looking like the Left's Farage....?
What is 'the Left'? You seemed to be arguing at one stage last year that UKIP were about to man the barricades against capitalism?
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This has probably been mentioned on here before but Corbyn is starting to looking like the Left's Farage....?
How so? Farage is a buffoon and a greasy clown with the exact appearance and all the charm, allure and charisma of a late-middle-aged used car dealer from Romford; since the death of Tony Benn and with the decrepitude of Dennis Skinner, Corbyn is one of the few conviction politicians left in Parliament.
Never been entirely convinced by this 'conviction' thing. I think IDS is a conviction politician, indeed I think Blair was as well, even Andy Burnham might be, if the conviction is I will be both for and against something if I am convinced it will help me be leader.
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This has probably been mentioned on here before but Corbyn is starting to looking like the Left's Farage....?
How so? Farage is a buffoon and a greasy clown with the exact appearance and all the charm, allure and charisma of a late-middle-aged used car dealer from Romford; since the death of Tony Benn and with the decrepitude of Dennis Skinner, Corbyn is one of the few conviction politicians left in Parliament.
If that is how your mind is coloured then it will be hard for you to see what I'm saying. They both speak from the heart about issues that concern the man and woman in the street and not the crap the Westminster bubble lot do. They are both at street level and are seeing how things really are as oppose the academic dribble our professional politician spout.
I notice you don't challenge and criticise Farage's views just heap abuse on the man.
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I notice you don't challenge and criticise Farage's views just heap abuse on the man.
Yep, that's right. He's not worth anything more. That would be to do him the disservice of taking him seriously as a political figure.
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This has probably been mentioned on here before but Corbyn is starting to looking like the Left's Farage....?
What is 'the Left'? You seemed to be arguing at one stage last year that UKIP were about to man the barricades against capitalism?
You know what is Left!
But yes, UKIP isn't really Right but a new kind of middle. Nice to se you are noting my posts ;D
The real problem for society and the world is neo-Liberalism. It is about an elite who tries to control everything even the economic markets, that is, like Communism. But the whole thing is falling apart and both Right and Left are beginning to see that the whole thing is rotten to the core. It is not capitalism, it is not the free markets as they should be, it is about monopolies. As I said its like Communism.
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This has probably been mentioned on here before but Corbyn is starting to looking like the Left's Farage....?
How so? Farage is a buffoon and a greasy clown with the exact appearance and all the charm, allure and charisma of a late-middle-aged used car dealer from Romford; since the death of Tony Benn and with the decrepitude of Dennis Skinner, Corbyn is one of the few conviction politicians left in Parliament.
If that is how your mind is coloured then it will be hard for you to see what I'm saying. They both speak from the heart about issues that concern the man and woman in the street and not the crap the Westminster bubble lot do. They are both at street level and are seeing how things really are as oppose the academic dribble our professional politician spout.
I notice you don't challenge and criticise Farage's views just heap abuse on the man.
If speaking from the heart means either Nige lying about HIV tourism, or Jezza wiffling about homeopathy, it just shows it is better to speak from the brain
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I notice you don't challenge and criticise Farage's views just heap abuse on the man.
Yep, that's right. He's not worth anything more. That would be to do him the disservice of taking him seriously as a political figure.
He's one of only a few that talks any sense. What don't you like about his views?
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This has probably been mentioned on here before but Corbyn is starting to looking like the Left's Farage....?
What is 'the Left'? You seemed to be arguing at one stage last year that UKIP were about to man the barricades against capitalism?
You know what is Left!
But yes, UKIP isn't really Right but a new kind of middle. Nice to se you are noting my posts ;D
The real problem for society and the world is neo-Liberalism. It is about an elite who tries to control everything even the economic markets, that is, like Communism. But the whole thing is falling apart and both Right and Left are beginning to see that the whole thing is rotten to the core. It is not capitalism, it is not the free markets as they should be, it is about monopolies. As I said its like Communism.
Huge chunks of that I agree with. That UKIP are a new kind of middle, though nope. They are a sort of confused morass of old style protectionists and moralists. (see their inability to deal with same sex marriage)
As to left/right always been a fairly meaningless term but more so now, is Liz Kendall left?
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This has probably been mentioned on here before but Corbyn is starting to looking like the Left's Farage....?
How so? Farage is a buffoon and a greasy clown with the exact appearance and all the charm, allure and charisma of a late-middle-aged used car dealer from Romford; since the death of Tony Benn and with the decrepitude of Dennis Skinner, Corbyn is one of the few conviction politicians left in Parliament.
If that is how your mind is coloured then it will be hard for you to see what I'm saying. They both speak from the heart about issues that concern the man and woman in the street and not the crap the Westminster bubble lot do. They are both at street level and are seeing how things really are as oppose the academic dribble our professional politician spout.
I notice you don't challenge and criticise Farage's views just heap abuse on the man.
If speaking from the heart means either Nige lying about HIV tourism, or Jezza wiffling about homeopathy, it just shows it is better to speak from the brain
I said it was about the rotten project of Neo-Liberalism!!!
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I notice you don't challenge and criticise Farage's views just heap abuse on the man.
Yep, that's right. He's not worth anything more. That would be to do him the disservice of taking him seriously as a political figure.
He's one of only a few that talks any sense. What don't you like about his views?
For me that they are both incoherent and unpleasant
The idea that you fight neo liberalism by effectively becoming a grand financial Cayman Islands which he punts in deregulation of the financial industry and having some form of protectionism is either stupid or lying by trying to be all things to all people.
That there is such a thing as a culture to worry about in the sense of fighting against the participation of others who have differing views is a pander to a rather witless totalitarianism.
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This has probably been mentioned on here before but Corbyn is starting to looking like the Left's Farage....?
What is 'the Left'? You seemed to be arguing at one stage last year that UKIP were about to man the barricades against capitalism?
You know what is Left!
But yes, UKIP isn't really Right but a new kind of middle. Nice to se you are noting my posts ;D
The real problem for society and the world is neo-Liberalism. It is about an elite who tries to control everything even the economic markets, that is, like Communism. But the whole thing is falling apart and both Right and Left are beginning to see that the whole thing is rotten to the core. It is not capitalism, it is not the free markets as they should be, it is about monopolies. As I said its like Communism.
Huge chunks of that I agree with. That UKIP are a new kind of middle, though nope. They are a sort of confused morass of old style protectionists and moralists. (see their inability to deal with same sex marriage)
As to left/right always been a fairly meaningless term but more so now, is Liz Kendall left?
They are not protectionists; the EU is, which is why we have the mess of the migrants coming from Africa.
Kendall is centre right.
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I notice you don't challenge and criticise Farage's views just heap abuse on the man.
Yep, that's right. He's not worth anything more. That would be to do him the disservice of taking him seriously as a political figure.
He's one of only a few that talks any sense. What don't you like about his views?
What don't I like about his views apart from the xenophobia, the naked lowest-common-denominator demagoguery, the opposition to equal marriage until it's politically inexpedient to oppose it further, the I'm-going-to-resign-if-we're-slaughtered-in-the-general-election-oh-hang-on-we've-been-slaughtered-in-the-general-election-but-no-I-won't-resign-after-all opportunism, you mean?
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This has probably been mentioned on here before but Corbyn is starting to looking like the Left's Farage....?
How so? Farage is a buffoon and a greasy clown with the exact appearance and all the charm, allure and charisma of a late-middle-aged used car dealer from Romford; since the death of Tony Benn and with the decrepitude of Dennis Skinner, Corbyn is one of the few conviction politicians left in Parliament.
If that is how your mind is coloured then it will be hard for you to see what I'm saying. They both speak from the heart about issues that concern the man and woman in the street and not the crap the Westminster bubble lot do. They are both at street level and are seeing how things really are as oppose the academic dribble our professional politician spout.
I notice you don't challenge and criticise Farage's views just heap abuse on the man.
If speaking from the heart means either Nige lying about HIV tourism, or Jezza wiffling about homeopathy, it just shows it is better to speak from the brain
I said it was about the rotten project of Neo-Liberalism!!!
which justifies lying how?
-
This has probably been mentioned on here before but Corbyn is starting to looking like the Left's Farage....?
What is 'the Left'? You seemed to be arguing at one stage last year that UKIP were about to man the barricades against capitalism?
You know what is Left!
But yes, UKIP isn't really Right but a new kind of middle. Nice to se you are noting my posts ;D
The real problem for society and the world is neo-Liberalism. It is about an elite who tries to control everything even the economic markets, that is, like Communism. But the whole thing is falling apart and both Right and Left are beginning to see that the whole thing is rotten to the core. It is not capitalism, it is not the free markets as they should be, it is about monopolies. As I said its like Communism.
Huge chunks of that I agree with. That UKIP are a new kind of middle, though nope. They are a sort of confused morass of old style protectionists and moralists. (see their inability to deal with same sex marriage)
As to left/right always been a fairly meaningless term but more so now, is Liz Kendall left?
They are not protectionists; the EU is, which is why we have the mess of the migrants coming from Africa.
Kendall is centre right.
They are protectionist in wanting to control the actions of employers.
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I notice you don't challenge and criticise Farage's views just heap abuse on the man.
Yep, that's right. He's not worth anything more. That would be to do him the disservice of taking him seriously as a political figure.
He's one of only a few that talks any sense. What don't you like about his views?
For me that they are both incoherent and unpleasant
The idea that you fight neo liberalism by effectively becoming a grand financial Cayman Islands which he punts in deregulation of the financial industry and having some form of protectionism is either stupid or lying by trying to be all things to all people.
That there is such a thing as a culture to worry about in the sense of fighting against the participation of others who have differing views is a pander to a rather witless totalitarianism.
The first bit : where has he said that?
And your other bit doesn't really make any sense. It's about governing our own boarders and not by some elite group who want to turn everybody into serfs by "Ever closer Union." - like Soviet Russia.
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Being non protectionist would make UKIP neo liberal, except of course that term is virtually meaningless but TTIP is a neo liberal project, and is also effectively what a non protectionist view would be.
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I notice you don't challenge and criticise Farage's views just heap abuse on the man.
Yep, that's right. He's not worth anything more. That would be to do him the disservice of taking him seriously as a political figure.
He's one of only a few that talks any sense. What don't you like about his views?
What don't I like about his views apart from the xenophobia, the naked lowest-common-denominator demagoguery, the opposition to equal marriage until it's politically inexpedient to oppose it further, the I'm-going-to-resign-if-we're-slaughtered-in-the-general-election-oh-hang-on-we've-been-slaughtered-in-the-general-election-but-no-I-won't-resign-after-all opportunism, you mean?
Shaker, you are amusing!!!
Besides just coming out with terminology and verbiage that says and means nothing, you pick on the issues which are either minor; or by-the-way, or just the product of the gutter press and media.
Give me some intelligent comments and angles about some real important issues.
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This has probably been mentioned on here before but Corbyn is starting to looking like the Left's Farage....?
How so? Farage is a buffoon and a greasy clown with the exact appearance and all the charm, allure and charisma of a late-middle-aged used car dealer from Romford; since the death of Tony Benn and with the decrepitude of Dennis Skinner, Corbyn is one of the few conviction politicians left in Parliament.
If that is how your mind is coloured then it will be hard for you to see what I'm saying. They both speak from the heart about issues that concern the man and woman in the street and not the crap the Westminster bubble lot do. They are both at street level and are seeing how things really are as oppose the academic dribble our professional politician spout.
I notice you don't challenge and criticise Farage's views just heap abuse on the man.
If speaking from the heart means either Nige lying about HIV tourism, or Jezza wiffling about homeopathy, it just shows it is better to speak from the brain
I said it was about the rotten project of Neo-Liberalism!!!
which justifies lying how?
Or he didn't lie you just misunderstood what he was saying. Foreigners come here and use our NHS for free and then get the drugs they need for free, including the ones for HIV which are one of the most expensive. And they have never contributed to the system. Why should w put up with this?
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This has probably been mentioned on here before but Corbyn is starting to looking like the Left's Farage....?
What is 'the Left'? You seemed to be arguing at one stage last year that UKIP were about to man the barricades against capitalism?
You know what is Left!
But yes, UKIP isn't really Right but a new kind of middle. Nice to se you are noting my posts ;D
The real problem for society and the world is neo-Liberalism. It is about an elite who tries to control everything even the economic markets, that is, like Communism. But the whole thing is falling apart and both Right and Left are beginning to see that the whole thing is rotten to the core. It is not capitalism, it is not the free markets as they should be, it is about monopolies. As I said its like Communism.
Huge chunks of that I agree with. That UKIP are a new kind of middle, though nope. They are a sort of confused morass of old style protectionists and moralists. (see their inability to deal with same sex marriage)
As to left/right always been a fairly meaningless term but more so now, is Liz Kendall left?
They are not protectionists; the EU is, which is why we have the mess of the migrants coming from Africa.
Kendall is centre right.
They are protectionist in wanting to control the actions of employers.
No they are not. What do you think TTIP is all about? What do you think goes on in Brussels with the 3000 odd lobbyists. What do you think the onslaught on Greece is all about, no workers protection there; not even a country's protection as Brussels strips its assets for the wealthy elites. Do your homework, Nearly!!!
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Being non protectionist would make UKIP neo liberal, except of course that term is virtually meaningless but TTIP is a neo liberal project, and is also effectively what a non protectionist view would be.
You're moving about, applying it differently, what you mean by protectionist. We are all protectionists in some manner or other. Clarify what you are trying to say.
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Being non protectionist would make UKIP neo liberal, except of course that term is virtually meaningless but TTIP is a neo liberal project, and is also effectively what a non protectionist view would be.
You're moving about, applying it differently, what you mean by protectionist. We are all protectionists in some manner or other. Clarify what you are trying to say.
Ok, I'll pull together a proper detailed post on this when I have time rather than just doing a couple of lines that are easily misconstrued - not sure when I'll get round to it but just to flag that it might be a little time.