Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: SusanDoris on August 02, 2015, 01:19:42 PM
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Just heard again the Bishop of Dover being quoted. He said something about we should 'redisccover our humanity'. Well, excuse me for sounding just a bit cynical here, but anyone know what he has done personally to help improve the situation? Has he offered to take one of the economic migrants into his home? Personally, I have no idea what the solution is, but I don't think platitudes are much use.
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Just heard again the Bishop of Dover being quoted. He said something about we should 'redisccover our humanity'. Well, excuse me for sounding just a bit cynical here, but anyone know what he has done personally to help improve the situation? Has he offered to take one of the economic migrants into his home? Personally, I have no idea what the solution is, but I don't think platitudes are much use.
To be fair, taking one or two, or half a dozen in, wouldn't fix the issue. The problem isn't even the thousands - tens of thousands, perhaps - who are currently in transit or at Calais, or even the hundreds of thousands who have been displaced from their homes.
The problem is that we have failed to improve the lot of people in the hell-holes of the world, and rather than look on their relative poverty and commiserate we have looked on it and said 'they want our stuff!' and closed the door.
Trying to house and settle them here disrupts us and doesn't give them what they truly need, which is a chance to build their own lives rather than having to settle in the shadow of ours.
We need to stop half-arsed interventions in third-world piss-holes, accept the reality that our culture really is genuinely better than theirs, eradicate the corrupt regimes, invest in their infrastructure and help them to build a better home for themselves so they have no reason to want to come here.
O.
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Outrider
Karma Applaud
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Just heard again the Bishop of Dover being quoted. He said something about we should 'redisccover our humanity'. Well, excuse me for sounding just a bit cynical here, but anyone know what he has done personally to help improve the situation? Has he offered to take one of the economic migrants into his home? Personally, I have no idea what the solution is, but I don't think platitudes are much use.
To be fair, taking one or two, or half a dozen in, wouldn't fix the issue. The problem isn't even the thousands - tens of thousands, perhaps - who are currently in transit or at Calais, or even the hundreds of thousands who have been displaced from their homes.
The problem is that we have failed to improve the lot of people in the hell-holes of the world, and rather than look on their relative poverty and commiserate we have looked on it and said 'they want our stuff!' and closed the door.
Trying to house and settle them here disrupts us and doesn't give them what they truly need, which is a chance to build their own lives rather than having to settle in the shadow of ours.
We need to stop half-arsed interventions in third-world piss-holes, accept the reality that our culture really is genuinely better than theirs, eradicate the corrupt regimes, invest in their infrastructure and help them to build a better home for themselves so they have no reason to want to come here.
O.
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Wot Outrider said.
I dom't know too much about the Cof E official stance here, but if it's anything like the CofS stance it will involve getting their hands dirty at grass roots level while telling the government to stop messing with situations which will only aggrevate the situation.
I'm not too hopeful on the latter front, though. Westminster has a distressing habit of flinging bombs and bullets at a situation without thinking of the possible repercussions.
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Just heard again the Bishop of Dover being quoted. He said something about we should 'redisccover our humanity'. Well, excuse me for sounding just a bit cynical here, but anyone know what he has done personally to help improve the situation? Has he offered to take one of the economic migrants into his home? Personally, I have no idea what the solution is, but I don't think platitudes are much use.
Perhaps these are examples of what you are looking fo Susan?
http://tinyurl.com/ogxnwek
http://www.kentnews.co.uk/news/new_year_message_from_the_bishop_of_dover_1_3897819
I'm not sure of your stance on overseas aid, but it is the kind of action that Outrider suggests and many people, Christian and non-Christian, have been crying out for, for decades that the OA budget needs to be spent on. The more that money goes to grass-root organisations that improve the real-time lives of their citizens, the fewer emigrants many of these less developed nations will suffer from. Remeber that it is usually the richest who are able to pay the extortionate suns to people smugglers, and these are often (though by no means necessarily) the doctors/scientists/teachers/... that such nations so desperately need to build developed nationhoods.
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Just heard again the Bishop of Dover being quoted. He said something about we should 'redisccover our humanity'. Well, excuse me for sounding just a bit cynical here, but anyone know what he has done personally to help improve the situation? Has he offered to take one of the economic migrants into his home? Personally, I have no idea what the solution is, but I don't think platitudes are much use.
To be fair, taking one or two, or half a dozen in, wouldn't fix the issue. The problem isn't even the thousands - tens of thousands, perhaps - who are currently in transit or at Calais, or even the hundreds of thousands who have been displaced from their homes.
The problem is that we have failed to improve the lot of people in the hell-holes of the world, and rather than look on their relative poverty and commiserate we have looked on it and said 'they want our stuff!' and closed the door.
Trying to house and settle them here disrupts us and doesn't give them what they truly need, which is a chance to build their own lives rather than having to settle in the shadow of ours.
We need to stop half-arsed interventions in third-world piss-holes, accept the reality that our culture really is genuinely better than theirs, eradicate the corrupt regimes, invest in their infrastructure and help them to build a better home for themselves so they have no reason to want to come here.
O.
Well said.
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Many thanks for the replies, and well said, Outrider. It is such a massive, almost insurmountable problem, isn't it.
There is always the question, too, of money collected finding its way into all the wrong pockets.
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Dear Outrider,
Excellent post, a new word is creeping into politics, compassion, bye bye new Labour, cheerio old Tory, I am quite optimistic about mankind, the culture of "I'am alright Jack" is slowly being eroded, and I think faster communication has something to do with it.
Gonnagle.
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Just heard again the Bishop of Dover being quoted. He said something about we should 'redisccover our humanity'. Well, excuse me for sounding just a bit cynical here, but anyone know what he has done personally to help improve the situation? Has he offered to take one of the economic migrants into his home? Personally, I have no idea what the solution is, but I don't think platitudes are much use.
I think this is an unfair attack. If people are not going to speak up about the disgusting right-wing attack on migrants, then I despair. It's true that I haven't taken a migrant into my home - am I therefore disbarred from criticizing the government?
The churches do help migrants and asylum seekers, see for example, the London Churches Refugee Network, and many other similar bodies, which try to help migrants with all kinds of problems.
I suppose as an atheist, you have a knee-jerk reaction - bishop, therefore bad. That also makes me despair really.
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We need to stop half-arsed interventions in third-world piss-holes, accept the reality that our culture really is genuinely better than theirs, eradicate the corrupt regimes, invest in their infrastructure and help them to build a better home for themselves so they have no reason to want to come here.
O.
Rather obviously, this is not going to happen. Who would be able to do it anyway? The problem is how to manage the situation to:
1) Help those who need help immediately
2) Set up proper camps where asylum seekers or migrants can be processed and sent on to places able to handle them or where they can best contribute
It also needs to be recognised that since it is the West and Russia that have been mainly responsible for setting up and maintaining corrupt regimes and controlling trade to further their own commercial interests - they are hardly going to do anything to rebuild the infra-structure needed.
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Just heard again the Bishop of Dover being quoted. He said something about we should 'redisccover our humanity'. Well, excuse me for sounding just a bit cynical here, but anyone know what he has done personally to help improve the situation? Has he offered to take one of the economic migrants into his home? Personally, I have no idea what the solution is, but I don't think platitudes are much use.
To be fair, taking one or two, or half a dozen in, wouldn't fix the issue. The problem isn't even the thousands - tens of thousands, perhaps - who are currently in transit or at Calais, or even the hundreds of thousands who have been displaced from their homes.
The problem is that we have failed to improve the lot of people in the hell-holes of the world, and rather than look on their relative poverty and commiserate we have looked on it and said 'they want our stuff!' and closed the door.
Trying to house and settle them here disrupts us and doesn't give them what they truly need, which is a chance to build their own lives rather than having to settle in the shadow of ours.
We need to stop half-arsed interventions in third-world piss-holes, accept the reality that our culture really is genuinely better than theirs, eradicate the corrupt regimes, invest in their infrastructure and help them to build a better home for themselves so they have no reason to want to come here.
O.
Once again, spot on!
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Dear Wigs,
Anti theist, Susan is a anti theist, Pratchett loving anti theist.
Gonnagle.
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Dear Wigs,
Anti theist, Susan is a anti theist, Pratchett loving anti theist.
Gonnagle.
Staggering, Gonners. Bishop rightly attacks Cameron for his attitude to migrants, but hello, he's a BISHOP, klaxon sounds, red light flashes for atheists, he must be talking shit. Oh, and he hasn't taken a migrant into his house, so he has no right to talk. What utter tripe.
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Just heard again the Bishop of Dover being quoted. He said something about we should 'redisccover our humanity'. Well, excuse me for sounding just a bit cynical here, but anyone know what he has done personally to help improve the situation? Has he offered to take one of the economic migrants into his home? Personally, I have no idea what the solution is, but I don't think platitudes are much use.
I think this is an unfair attack. If people are not going to speak up about the disgusting right-wing attack on migrants, then I despair. It's true that I haven't taken a migrant into my home - am I therefore disbarred from criticizing the government?
The churches do help migrants and asylum seekers, see for example, the London Churches Refugee Network, and many other similar bodies, which try to help migrants with all kinds of problems.
I suppose as an atheist, you have a knee-jerk reaction - bishop, therefore bad. That also makes me despair really.
Agreed. One of the strengths of the church - perhaps one of its few remaining ones - is the continual reminders that it gives us to consider the dispossessed and desperate. If I were in Kent right now I might find it hard to feel compassionate and this is a timely reminder.
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Many thanks for the replies, and well said, Outrider. It is such a massive, almost insurmountable problem, isn't it.
There is always the question, too, of money collected finding its way into all the wrong pockets.
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All cash donated to the DEC, Tear Fund, Christian Aid, Cafod, etc, is accounted for - and distributed mainly in the form of goods, rather than money, to the locals whoneed it, rather than the governments of the countries.
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Many thanks for the replies, and well said, Outrider. It is such a massive, almost insurmountable problem, isn't it.
There is always the question, too, of money collected finding its way into all the wrong pockets.
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All cash donated to the DEC, Tear Fund, Christian Aid, Cafod, etc, is accounted for - and distributed mainly in the form of goods, rather than money, to the locals whoneed it, rather than the governments of the countries.
Excellent idea!
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Glad you think it's an excellent idea, Len - but that's the way we've been doing things for decades!
Fair enough, some of the local churches may be used as depots for goods, though not always.
Items such as water purifiers, mosquito netting, tents, as well as basic nutritional supplements, are normally distributed by local workers. Qualified medics distribute medication.
That's better than lobbing money at a situation: money has a nasty habit of disappearing.
The only time money is distributed is usually through "micro-banks" which help set up small business ventures in villages, etc, to stimulate the local economy. Even then, the local leaders and elders of the village (not necessarily elders in a Christian context) are drafted in to ensure no corruption.
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Yeah, but Jim, a lot of these people doing the organizing are CHRISTIANS, and we know that they are fools and knaves, and can never be trusted, so I think that it is just superstition and magical thinking all round. What the do bishops know about poverty and immigration anyway, nothing at all, much better to trust dear Mr Cameron and dear Mr Osborne.
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That new batch of irony meters you've got, Wiggs?
They're on fire!
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Glad you think it's an excellent idea, Len - but that's the way we've been doing things for decades!
Fair enough, some of the local churches may be used as depots for goods, though not always.
Items such as water purifiers, mosquito netting, tents, as well as basic nutritional supplements, are normally distributed by local workers. Qualified medics distribute medication.
That's better than lobbing money at a situation: money has a nasty habit of disappearing.
The only time money is distributed is usually through "micro-banks" which help set up small business ventures in villages, etc, to stimulate the local economy. Even then, the local leaders and elders of the village (not necessarily elders in a Christian context) are drafted in to ensure no corruption.
It's a pity that all charitable organisations don't go the same road.
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Dear Jim,
It's the Wigginhall, he is a Saint, they say ( they, wee guy doon the pub ) the nearer you get to God the more you suffer, somebody should check him out for stigmata :P
Gonnagle.
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Dear Jim,
It's the Wigginhall, he is a Saint, they say ( they, wee guy doon the pub ) the nearer you get to God the more you suffer, somebody should check him out for stigmata :P
Gonnagle.
I had those, Gonners, but I had them removed on the NHS. I believe this has been stopped under Cameron, things like varicose veins and stigmata no longer covered, acts of God, or something.
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wigginhall and Gonnagle
I think you have both over-reacted somewhat! :) However, perhaps I could ask you if you think the Bishop (and his fellows) should spend time praing for the migrants and, if so, do you think it will be of any use in either practical or moral terms?
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Many thanks for the replies, and well said, Outrider. It is such a massive, almost insurmountable problem, isn't it.
There is always the question, too, of money collected finding its way into all the wrong pockets.
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All cash donated to the DEC, Tear Fund, Christian Aid, Cafod, etc, is accounted for - and distributed mainly in the form of goods, rather than money, to the locals whoneed it, rather than the governments of the countries.
Christian aid is recommended by both the B H A and The NSS, as the most bang for the buck charity going.
ippy
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eradicate the corrupt regimes,
How are we going to do that?
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wigginhall and Gonnagle
I think you have both over-reacted somewhat! :) However, perhaps I could ask you if you think the Bishop (and his fellows) should spend time praing for the migrants and, if so, do you think it will be of any use in either practical or moral terms?
Dunno about Wiggs and Gonners, but that's a Yes from me.
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Dear Susan,
Praying, a very practical use, praying is a great way of focusing the mind, whilst praying this Bishop could have a epiphany ( sometimes called the eureka moment ).
On a more serious note, have you heard that there is a last book by Pratchett's still to be published, a Tiffany Aching book.
Gonnagle.
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wigginhall and Gonnagle
I think you have both over-reacted somewhat! :) However, perhaps I could ask you if you think the Bishop (and his fellows) should spend time praing for the migrants and, if so, do you think it will be of any use in either practical or moral terms?
And so the forum echoes to the sweet sound of goalposts being moved once more.
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Dear Susan,
Praying, a very practical use, praying is a great way of focusing the mind, whilst praying this Bishop could have a epiphany ( sometimes called the eureka moment ).
On a more serious note, have you heard that there is a last book by Pratchett's still to be published, a Tiffany Aching book.
Gonnagle.
Yes; I shall buy it of course! My reader is about three-quarters of the way through 'Raising Steam' at the moment
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Dear Outrider,
Excellent post, a new word is creeping into politics, compassion, bye bye new Labour, cheerio old Tory, I am quite optimistic about mankind, the culture of "I'am alright Jack" is slowly being eroded, and I think faster communication has something to do with it.
Gonnagle.
The Left are always really good at using the language of compassion, but less good at solving the problems. The good Bishop's main objection seems to have been the use of the word 'Swarm' - though looking at the news footage, it doesn't seem totally inappropriate.
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Dear Outrider,
Excellent post, a new word is creeping into politics, compassion, bye bye new Labour, cheerio old Tory, I am quite optimistic about mankind, the culture of "I'am alright Jack" is slowly being eroded, and I think faster communication has something to do with it.
Gonnagle.
The Left are always really good at using the language of compassion, but less good at solving the problems. The good Bishop's main objection seems to have been the use of the word 'Swarm' - though looking at the news footage, it doesn't seem totally inappropriate.
"Swarm" seems to be the latest word to be politically re-defined as being culturally unacceptable. It is following "pleb" into the equivalent of 21st century swear words.
Thank heavens Harriet Harperson does not work at the Oxford University Press.
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Dear Lapsed,
The Left!! You are such a Victorian, I wonder if I am a leftie, don't think so, I quite like watching this country prosper, but never at the expense of human life, human dignity, the Tories need to learn the word compassion, it means to suffer with, after all we are all in it together, aye right >:(
Gonnagle.
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Rather obviously, this is not going to happen. Who would be able to do it anyway?
It does seem unlikely, though I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me why that might be.
The problem is how to manage the situation to:
1) Help those who need help immediately
2) Set up proper camps where asylum seekers or migrants can be processed and sent on to places able to handle them or where they can best contribute
Which is never going to work. As evident as it seems that no-one's actually going to take steps to prevent this, if we don't prevent it we're never going to adequately manage it. Trying to find homes and lives for these people is only going to encourage more and more to come - if we're going to give them proper lives why not give them proper lives where they are?
It also needs to be recognised that since it is the West and Russia that have been mainly responsible for setting up and maintaining corrupt regimes and controlling trade to further their own commercial interests - they are hardly going to do anything to rebuild the infra-structure needed.
Whilst some Western regimes have spent some of their efforts in supporting corrupt regimes in the third world, they've shown more than enough enthusiasm to set up and support their own as well. Western business practices, particularly in the arms trade, are not helping, I'd agree entirely, but that's why I'm suggesting that people in the west need to be changing the way they tackle these issues: viewing it as a good natured charity cause in the main, with occasional security issues to be dealt with by the government is not sufficient.
O.
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eradicate the corrupt regimes,
How are we going to do that?
Depends on the specifics of the regime. Sponsoring other political candidates, sanctions on particular parties and for the worst behaving proper military intervention.
That's the current, the difference is in the investment - public, not allowing private enterprises to use the opportunity to get their feet under someone else's table - particularly in education, communication, emergency services and the judiciary.
O.
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Dear Wigs,
Anti theist, Susan is a anti theist, Pratchett loving anti theist.
Gonnagle.
Staggering, Gonners. Bishop rightly attacks Cameron for his attitude to migrants, but hello, he's a BISHOP, klaxon sounds, red light flashes for atheists, he must be talking shit. Oh, and he hasn't taken a migrant into his house, so he has no right to talk. What utter tripe.
Great post.
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Just heard again the Bishop of Dover being quoted. He said something about we should 'redisccover our humanity'. Well, excuse me for sounding just a bit cynical here, but anyone know what he has done personally to help improve the situation? Has he offered to take one of the economic migrants into his home? Personally, I have no idea what the solution is, but I don't think platitudes are much use.
I think this is an unfair attack. If people are not going to speak up about the disgusting right-wing attack on migrants, then I despair. It's true that I haven't taken a migrant into my home - am I therefore disbarred from criticizing the government?
The churches do help migrants and asylum seekers, see for example, the London Churches Refugee Network, and many other similar bodies, which try to help migrants with all kinds of problems.
I suppose as an atheist, you have a knee-jerk reaction - bishop, therefore bad. That also makes me despair really.
Agreed. One of the strengths of the church - perhaps one of its few remaining ones - is the continual reminders that it gives us to consider the dispossessed and desperate. If I were in Kent right now I might find it hard to feel compassionate and this is a timely reminder.
Spot on. There is a conflation of two issues here..... migrants and holding up a transportation system....particularly by French commentators who compare the border with Britain with the border between France and Italy. However there is a world of difference between stepping over an imaginary line on the ground and jumping into heavy machinery, one slip meaning instant dismemberment or decapitation. The Eurotunnel is a dangerous industrial process. I am sure those French commentators would not be so swift in making such an equation if migrants attempted to hang onto the wings of aircraft taking off from Charles De Gaulle airport.
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Christian aid is recommended by both the B H A and The NSS, as the most bang for the buck charity going.
ippy
Ironically, it scores fairly poorly on the proportion of income spent on salaries and other non-core activities. Can't remember the website where one can monitor this element, though.
I believe that Oxfam rates higher.
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Just heard again the Bishop of Dover being quoted. He said something about we should 'redisccover our humanity'. Well, excuse me for sounding just a bit cynical here, but anyone know what he has done personally to help improve the situation? Has he offered to take one of the economic migrants into his home? Personally, I have no idea what the solution is, but I don't think platitudes are much use.
To be fair, taking one or two, or half a dozen in, wouldn't fix the issue. The problem isn't even the thousands - tens of thousands, perhaps - who are currently in transit or at Calais, or even the hundreds of thousands who have been displaced from their homes.
The problem is that we have failed to improve the lot of people in the hell-holes of the world, and rather than look on their relative poverty and commiserate we have looked on it and said 'they want our stuff!' and closed the door.
Trying to house and settle them here disrupts us and doesn't give them what they truly need, which is a chance to build their own lives rather than having to settle in the shadow of ours.
We need to stop half-arsed interventions in third-world piss-holes, accept the reality that our culture really is genuinely better than theirs, eradicate the corrupt regimes, invest in their infrastructure and help them to build a better home for themselves so they have no reason to want to come here.
O.
Well said, O, spot on!!!
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We need to stop half-arsed interventions in third-world piss-holes, accept the reality that our culture really is genuinely better than theirs, eradicate the corrupt regimes, invest in their infrastructure and help them to build a better home for themselves so they have no reason to want to come here.
Not sure that accepting 'the reality that our culture really is genuinely better than theirs' is actually the case. In many ways, third world cultures are streets ahead than our culture (or perhaps just haven't lost some of the more inter-personal/relational skills that seem to have been missing in the West. Compare, for instance, attitudes towards the elderly, or the family.
I'd much rather prefer to 'accept that we can learn things from them, in the same way that they can learn things from us'.
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Christian aid is recommended by both the B H A and The NSS, as the most bang for the buck charity going.
ippy
Ironically, it scores fairly poorly on the proportion of income spent on salaries and other non-core activities. Can't remember the website where one can monitor this element, though.
I believe that Oxfam rates higher.
Christian aid is recommended by both the B H A and The NSS, as the most bang for the buck charity going.
Ironically, again Hope hasn't got the evidence to hand.
If it BHA & the NSS have got it wrong it's not me that has got it wrong whereas , You, Hope.
ippy
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We need to stop half-arsed interventions in third-world piss-holes, accept the reality that our culture really is genuinely better than theirs, eradicate the corrupt regimes, invest in their infrastructure and help them to build a better home for themselves so they have no reason to want to come here.
Not sure that accepting 'the reality that our culture really is genuinely better than theirs' is actually the case. In many ways, third world cultures are streets ahead than our culture (or perhaps just haven't lost some of the more inter-personal/relational skills that seem to have been missing in the West. Compare, for instance, attitudes towards the elderly, or the family.
I'd much rather prefer to 'accept that we can learn things from them, in the same way that they can learn things from us'.
I know where I would rather be and I would imagine if you were thinking of moving out to these places, referred to on this thread, I doubt you would still be wearing quite so rose coloured glasses when considering these places that have this, "better" culture than ours, even if you were inclined to go there.
ippy
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I know where I would rather be and I would imagine if you were thinking of moving out to these places, referred to on this thread, I doubt you would still be wearing quite so rose coloured glasses when considering these places that have this, "better" culture than ours, even if you were inclined to go there.
ippy
ippy, I never said that these places had 'better' cultures than ours; that's your preconceived bias showing through. Instead, they have different cultures parts of which are better than ours and parts of which are less good.
As for "I would imagine if you were thinking of moving out to these places", may I remind you that I have spent 10 years of my life living and working in such places, so the 'rose-coloured glasses' bit is a rather obsolete.
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I know where I would rather be and I would imagine if you were thinking of moving out to these places, referred to on this thread, I doubt you would still be wearing quite so rose coloured glasses when considering these places that have this, "better" culture than ours, even if you were inclined to go there.
ippy
ippy, I never said that these places had 'better' cultures than ours; that's your preconceived bias showing through. Instead, they have different cultures parts of which are better than ours and parts of which are less good.
As for "I would imagine if you were thinking of moving out to these places", may I remind you that I have spent 10 years of my life living and working in such places, so the 'rose-coloured glasses' bit is a rather obsolete.
The places referred to on this thread?
ippy
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The places referred to on this thread?
I thought we were talking about migrants, not just ones from specific countries. My apologies for failing to understand that.
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The places referred to on this thread?
I thought we were talking about migrants, not just ones from specific countries. My apologies for failing to understand that.
It would be an even stranger world if we were all perfect, fine.
ippy
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but hello, he's a BISHOP, klaxon sounds, red light flashes for atheists, he must be talking shit.
Please don't sink to the level of some other Christian posters on here and tar all atheists with the same brush Wiggs.
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Please don't sink to the level of some other Christian posters on here and tar all atheists with the same brush Wiggs.
A bit rich coming from you, Trent.
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Please don't sink to the level of some other Christian posters on here and tar all atheists with the same brush Wiggs.
A bit rich coming from you, Trent.
Why?
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Not sure that accepting 'the reality that our culture really is genuinely better than theirs' is actually the case. In many ways, third world cultures are streets ahead than our culture (or perhaps just haven't lost some of the more inter-personal/relational skills that seem to have been missing in the West. Compare, for instance, attitudes towards the elderly, or the family.
We invest significantly more than these places in health- and social-care for our elderly, we have no more family breakdown issues than these places, we simply have people with the personal freedom to escape bad situations so they aren't stuck in these mockeries of family life, and we aren't lumped with the same levels of institutional corruption, societal superstition and subjugatory ideas like 'honour killings'.
Our culture is cleaner, freer, more open, more tolerant, more accepting and fairer than pretty much any of theirs, as is evidenced by the disparity in the number of them trying to get here to live compared to the number of people here trying to get there to live.
O.
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I thought the Bishop had some valid points but hey ho I'm an atheist so must be talking tripe.
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We invest significantly more than these places in health- and social-care for our elderly, ...
That latter is questionable. Many families in the developing and even the 'less-developed' developed world invest far more in terms of time and money into their elderly. In some cases, that involves living in extended family units where children and grand-children are looked after by the elderly, and look after them in return.
...we have no more family breakdown issues than these places, we simply have people with the personal freedom to escape bad situations so they aren't stuck in these mockeries of family life, and we aren't lumped with the same levels of institutional corruption, societal superstition and subjugatory ideas like 'honour killings'.
along with the fact that often, these negative factors that you refer to have, never existed in the first place, where families work together to support each other and rely on each other to live.
Our culture is cleaner, freer, more open, more tolerant, more accepting and fairer than pretty much any of theirs, as is evidenced by the disparity in the number of them trying to get here to live compared to the number of people here trying to get there to live.
Is that why so many of our elderly 'ship' themselves out to the Med, to the Caribbean, to India, etc. to live out their last years.
O, you seem to have a very jaundiced view of life here in the West. I'm not saying that life in other, less-developed countries is necessarily better than here; what I am saying is that the two aren't reasonably comparable. We, in the West, lack important support systems that others have; they lack important support systems that we have. To a certain degree, those support systems are symptomatic of the nature of society. For instance, heart disease has a low incidence in many developing countries, whilst it is high here in the West; conversely, malaria has a high incidence in many developing countries and a low one here.
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Why?
Because you, like others here, are prone to generalisations comparable to that which you are accusing Wiggs of.
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Why?
Because you, like others here, are prone to generalisations comparable to that which you are accusing Wiggs of.
Could you point me to one?
I'm not saying I don't make generalisations - but I do try to be careful about what I post so that I do take into account peoples feelings around their beliefs.
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Could you point me to one?
If I had the time, I could probably find several, Trent, but I'm not minded to waste my time on such a process, just to satisfy your uncertainty over your posting record.
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Dear Trent and Jakswan,
My my!! You atheists are such a touchy lot, do me and the Wigs a favour, loosen yer corsets and stays :-*
Gonnagle.
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We invest significantly more than these places in health- and social-care for our elderly, ...
That latter is questionable. Many families in the developing and even the 'less-developed' developed world invest far more in terms of time and money into their elderly. In some cases, that involves living in extended family units where children and grand-children are looked after by the elderly, and look after them in return.
They invest time instead of money, perhaps, but less of it given that their life expectancy is considerably shorter, and compelling children and grand-children to be care-workers is not 'family life' it's slave-labour. People being stuck in cramped living spaces because they do not have the financial wherewithal or infrastructure to move out of a communal home is also not 'improved family life', it's a slum.
...we have no more family breakdown issues than these places, we simply have people with the personal freedom to escape bad situations so they aren't stuck in these mockeries of family life, and we aren't lumped with the same levels of institutional corruption, societal superstition and subjugatory ideas like 'honour killings'.
along with the fact that often, these negative factors that you refer to have, never existed in the first place, where families work together to support each other and rely on each other to live.
Are you talking pre-industrial communities here? I'd question whether ideas like 'honour killings' did or didn't happen, but the sheer abject lack of education, health-care and personal autonomy would make that an horrendous way to live.
If you're talking places like sub-Saharan Africa or rural India then I'm afraid I just frankly disagree with your assessment of the reality.
Our culture is cleaner, freer, more open, more tolerant, more accepting and fairer than pretty much any of theirs, as is evidenced by the disparity in the number of them trying to get here to live compared to the number of people here trying to get there to live.
Is that why so many of our elderly 'ship' themselves out to the Med, to the Caribbean, to India, etc. to live out their last years.
The Meditarranean - you'll note they ship themselves out to other Western-style democracies on the North coast of the Med, rather than the North African places. Similar, advanced cultures. The Caribbean, built primarily along the same cultural lines, when they go to India it's typically to the suburban, Western-influenced areas.
Should I bother making my point when you make it for me?
O, you seem to have a very jaundiced view of life here in the West. I'm not saying that life in other, less-developed countries is necessarily better than here; what I am saying is that the two aren't reasonably comparable. We, in the West, lack important support systems that others have; they lack important support systems that we have. To a certain degree, those support systems are symptomatic of the nature of society. For instance, heart disease has a low incidence in many developing countries, whilst it is high here in the West; conversely, malaria has a high incidence in many developing countries and a low one here.
Heart disease is high in the west partly - only partly - because we have a richer (more enjoyable, some might say) diet, but primarily because other things that would kill people before heart disease had a chance to manifest just don't kick in. The same is true for cancer and other progressive, degenerative illnesses. The personal freedom that we value has supported an economic system that means we care for our disabled as a community - not leaving individuals to struggle with their own families in a system that doesn't give them capacity to do it.
A major part of our ability to do this is the fact that, during the Renaissance and early Industrial era our societies developed in areas that were geographically rich in resources, so the spare capacity was there to do it. Modern developments in transport, communications infrastructure and agricultural and manufacturing technology mean that these ideas could spread, easily, but we lack the will to spread them to people who lack the control of their own destiny to demand them.
O.
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Could you point me to one?
If I had the time, I could probably find several, Trent, but I'm not minded to waste my time on such a process, just to satisfy your uncertainty over your posting record.
Ah so you aren't willing to back up your assertion with any proof. I think your antipathy towards me is skewing your view of what I post.
Only last week I objected to one of Len's (an atheist you know) threads - in that I felt he was unfairly representing Catholic Parents - this week I have remarked on Wiggs doing a similar thing with atheists.
So I would appreciate you taking the time to point to somewhere showing me making generalisations over a serious matter - or you can withdraw the remark.
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Dear Trent and Jakswan,
My my!! You atheists are such a touchy lot, do me and the Wigs a favour, loosen yer corsets and stays :-*
Gonnagle.
Gonners see my reply to Hope for my reasons. I'm sick of being misrepresented on the basis of what some other Atheists post. Just as I'm sure Cyberman or you or any other Christian would hate me to judge them on something another individual Christian had posted.
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Dear Trent and Jakswan,
My my!! You atheists are such a touchy lot, do me and the Wigs a favour, loosen yer corsets and stays :-*
Gonnagle.
I know its hard for you to be serious but prejudice against a group of people based on their belief system is I think wrong. At least you are not being hypocritical though so have a small pat on the back.
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Dear Trent and Jakswan,
My my!! You atheists are such a touchy lot, do me and the Wigs a favour, loosen yer corsets and stays :-*
Gonnagle.
Gonners see my reply to Hope for my reasons. I'm sick of being misrepresented on the basis of what some other Atheists post. Just as I'm sure Cyberman or you or any other Christian would hate me to judge them on something another individual Christian had posted.
There are some bad apples in every barrel, no matter how they kid themselves there ain't! :)
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Only last week I objected to one of Len's (an atheist you know) threads - in that I felt he was unfairly representing Catholic Parents - this week I have remarked on Wiggs doing a similar thing with atheists.
I'm fully aware that you objected to Len's post, but there have been occasions where you (and probably everyone else here) have generalised about other posters. I think the thing that got me annoyed about your response to Wiggs post is that it was so clearly meant to be sarcastic.
So I would appreciate you taking the time to point to somewhere showing me making generalisations over a serious matter - or you can withdraw the remark.
No, I am not going to prod around the forum to find something to smooth your ruffled feathers; if you won't or can't accept that you sometimes do exactly the same as that which you were challenging Wiggs on, then I feel sorry for you.
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No, I am not going to prod around the forum to find something to smooth your ruffled feathers; if you won't or can't accept that you sometimes do exactly the same as that which you were challenging Wiggs on, then I feel sorry for you.
Making assertions without being able to back up with evidence is your defining posting style Hopalong.
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Only last week I objected to one of Len's (an atheist you know) threads - in that I felt he was unfairly representing Catholic Parents - this week I have remarked on Wiggs doing a similar thing with atheists.
I'm fully aware that you objected to Len's post, but there have been occasions where you (and probably everyone else here) have generalised about other posters. I think the thing that got me annoyed about your response to Wiggs post is that it was so clearly meant to be sarcastic.
So I would appreciate you taking the time to point to somewhere showing me making generalisations over a serious matter - or you can withdraw the remark.
No, I am not going to prod around the forum to find something to smooth your ruffled feathers; if you won't or can't accept that you sometimes do exactly the same as that which you were challenging Wiggs on, then I feel sorry for you.
How often does it take for you to post unjustified claims and accusations to even feel the slightest ashamed?
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Well said, Outrider, Trent and NS.
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Only last week I objected to one of Len's (an atheist you know) threads - in that I felt he was unfairly representing Catholic Parents - this week I have remarked on Wiggs doing a similar thing with atheists.
I'm fully aware that you objected to Len's post, but there have been occasions where you (and probably everyone else here) have generalised about other posters. I think the thing that got me annoyed about your response to Wiggs post is that it was so clearly meant to be sarcastic.
So I would appreciate you taking the time to point to somewhere showing me making generalisations over a serious matter - or you can withdraw the remark.
No, I am not going to prod around the forum to find something to smooth your ruffled feathers; if you won't or can't accept that you sometimes do exactly the same as that which you were challenging Wiggs on, then I feel sorry for you.
In what way is this sarcastic:
"Please don't sink to the level of some other Christian posters on here and tar all atheists with the same brush Wiggs."
My feathers aren't ruffled at all - but someting has clearly upset you. (btw how would finding proof I did this smooth my ruffled feathers??)
You are unwilling to provide proof that I generalise in the same way as the examples given.
Yet you are sure I do.
I see.
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I think that Hope was stating that Wigginhall's post was sarcastic rather than your's, trentvoyager. And that therefore its generalisation was not to be noted, for some reason.
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Aanyway in an attempt to get this back on track I'd like to state that I do think that some Bishops are as able to comment on this as anybody else is - and that they very often bring a different quality and perspective to the debate that is lacking when the usual politicians run with these issues, and furthermore (strangely enough)their thoughts on these social issues very oftne chime with my own.
That is because they are all left wing do-gooders (there a little bit of a generalisation for Hope so he doesn't have to search for some anywhere else) no doubt.
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I think that Hope was stating that Wigginhall's post was sarcastic rather than your's, trentvoyager. And that therefore its generalisation was not to be noted, for some reason.
Oh I didn't read Wiggs post as sarcastic and as he posted a similar thought twice he was clearly upset by the comments by SD - and it seemed out of character for Wiggs.
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That is because they are all left wing do-gooders ... no doubt.
Probably more likely because they are Christians - though in the case of some bishops I've had dealings with, even that would be a generalisation!!
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Just heard again the Bishop of Dover being quoted. He said something about we should 'redisccover our humanity'. Well, excuse me for sounding just a bit cynical here, but anyone know what he has done personally to help improve the situation? Has he offered to take one of the economic migrants into his home? Personally, I have no idea what the solution is, but I don't think platitudes are much use.
I think I agree. If these people are fleeing persecution or a hard life, they are safe in France- which has more room to accomodate them anyway- it doesn't make sense to criticize Cameron's use of the word "swarm".
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Just heard again the Bishop of Dover being quoted. He said something about we should 'redisccover our humanity'. Well, excuse me for sounding just a bit cynical here, but anyone know what he has done personally to help improve the situation? Has he offered to take one of the economic migrants into his home? Personally, I have no idea what the solution is, but I don't think platitudes are much use.
I think I agree. If these people are fleeing persecution or a hard life, they are safe in France- which has more room to accomodate them anyway- it doesn't make sense to criticize Cameron's use of the word "swarm".
I find it amazing how a certain section of the media go on about how terrible it is for these people who are desperately seeking a a safe haven - I was in France last week and generally it seems quite safe .