Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Nearly Sane on August 30, 2015, 05:09:03 PM
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I just cannot begin to express my thoughts
http://news.sky.com/story/1543918/protest-as-sisters-sentenced-to-be-raped
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I just cannot begin to express my thoughts
http://news.sky.com/story/1543918/protest-as-sisters-sentenced-to-be-raped
EVIL and then some! :o >:(
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"Those who believe absurdities will commit atrocities."
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Petition signed
I was, however, a little concerned by the wording of one paragraph:
carry out a swift, full and impartial investigation into the orders passed by the khap panchayat to rape the sisters, and where sufficient evidence exists, prosecute the suspects
If, as several other sources for the story I found (some totally independent of AI) are true, where can the idea that there won't be sufficient evidence come from. I was also surprised that the petition isn't being at least passed to the Indian Government, in addition to simply the local state government.
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This is appalling. The report states that it is because the brother ran away with a woman from the wrong caste.
I think we need Sriram's input here. There might be something else going on which isn't apparent.
Incidentally, Sriram, you can't blame the BBC for this one.
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How can such primitive, barbaric actions be carried out in an apparently educated country. Religion, of course, as usual.
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Just because it happened in India, I don't see why we might need to seek Sriram's input or judge any such input before it is made.
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I don't want to push any kind of guilt or blame or insult in Sriram's way. He is not to blame for this and I am sure that he is equally distressed about it.
I just wondered whether he has any insight into the kind of mindset or social morality that would condsider (a) a punishment of this sort and (b) punishing someone else as a kind of proxy.
Are the community leaders self appointed? if so, on what basis - caste?
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How can such primitive, barbaric actions be carried out in an apparently educated country. Religion, of course, as usual.
And the evidence for 'religion' being to blame, Len?
Remember that the basic concept of caste existed before Hinduism. That is why, at least in part, why some people think its acceptable to equate the Indian caste system with the British class system.
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Are the community leaders self appointed? if so, on what basis - caste?
They aren't elected, that's for certain. I suspect that tradition dictates who becomes a leader and who doesn't - even if an individual doesn't want to take on that responsibility of leadership. I certainly came across that situation when I was living and working in India in the 80s.
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From the report that I read the sentence was passed becasue the sisters left their villiage with, and at the behest of, a dominant and feminist activist woman against the wishes of their family and the village elders.
I have searched and cannot find the report but I think that it was on Yahoo News somewhere.
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From the report that I read the sentence was passed becasue the sisters left their villiage with, and at the behest of, a dominant and feminist activist woman against the wishes of their family and the village elders.
I have searched and cannot find the report but I think that it was on Yahoo News somewhere.
All the sources I found have them (ie the whole family) leaving the village after the sentence had been passed down.
http://bit.ly/1KmEek3
Yahoo News carries exactly the same report.
Mind you, this report is a great deal more confusing!!
http://bit.ly/1id0zEb
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From the report that I read the sentence was passed becasue the sisters left their villiage with, and at the behest of, a dominant and feminist activist woman against the wishes of their family and the village elders.
I have searched and cannot find the report but I think that it was on Yahoo News somewhere.
All the sources I found have them (ie the whole family) leaving the village after the sentence had been passed down.
http://bit.ly/1KmEek3
Yahoo News carries exactly the same report.
Mind you, this report is a great deal more confusing!!
http://bit.ly/1id0zEb
It all beats me - will we ever find out the whole truth? My guess is that your guess will be as good as mine!
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Ok...since I am officially the India rep here...I'll give my inputs.
1. These kind of incidents are as appalling to Indians as to anyone else. Such practices are banned and against the law.
2. This has nothing to do with Hinduism or any other religion. Certain social practices have developed in certain regions due to their past history that are sometimes still in vogue. Some regions (Rajashtan, UP, Punjab etc) have been the centre of wars and feudal battles for centuries and their medieval methods of 'justice' are still practiced.
3. India is as large as Europe and what happens in one corner need not impact or even known in any other region. Just as some barbaric practices in some southern parts of Europe do not directly concern the UK. Even in the US recently...some people practiced ritual human sacrifice. Does not mean every one endorses it. In UK some people still practice female circumcision.....does not mean everyone knows about it or endorses it. If it comes to light....action is taken.
4. Some remote regions (especially in the north) continue to practice certain systems that have been banned after independence in 1947. These are normally taken up by the police and courts if they are brought to their notice.
5. Villages in India (there are millions of them literally) are traditionally governed by the Panchayat (five elders) who normally would take decisions on the village rules and norms. After independence, this system has been kept in tact and integrated with the larger legal system of the states and the country as a whole. Major changes were not made. In other words...the panchayat still has a voice in the activities of the village though in many parts it is largely defunct and exists in name only. In some regions the panchayat is still powerful. There are no law books or lawyers here. Its all left to the 'wisdom' of the elders.
6. Many of these 'elders' are just that.... elders...nothing more. They are normally old, uneducated and often rooted in very rigid ideas of marriage, sex, women's role and so on. Most younger people leave the villages to move to cities...and that further dilutes the village modernization....and the words of some toothless old fogies still hold sway.
7. Some villages are so remote (no roads, no electricity, no railway)...that what happens in these parts is not even known to the other parts of the country. It takes weeks for investigating agencies to get there and find out what exactly happened....if they come to hear of it.
8. There are vast differences in different parts of the country with regard to education, development, family planning, women's role, marriage and so on. It is wrong to say that India is developed and still all this is happening. Certain parts of India are developed while certain parts are not. Some parts are still living in the 18th century and most of these people have never been outside their village.
9. Some decades back nearly 90% of India was uneducated and rural. Today it is only around 40% (500 million....more than the US population).....which is a vast improvement. This 40% will also get integrated with the rest of the country in course of time.
10. Lots of weird practices are prevalent in some regions of India even today. We are happy whenever we come to know of them so that it can be changed. Lot of noise is usually made in the Indian media about such matters. That is a plus. Westerners wouldn't even know about such matters unless Indian media make a noise.
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Are the community leaders self appointed? if so, on what basis - caste?
They aren't elected, that's for certain. I suspect that tradition dictates who becomes a leader and who doesn't - even if an individual doesn't want to take on that responsibility of leadership. I certainly came across that situation when I was living and working in India in the 80s.
Actually, panchayat elections do take place. But it is normally the oldest and the richest in that village who get elected.
Some panchayats like the Khap panchayat in some regions of North India are extra constitutional and it is these that create the problems. But even they are changing. Some Khaps in Haryana have now allowed inter caste marriage.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panchayati_raj_(India)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khap
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Sriram
Thank you very much for your very full and considered reply.
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Sririam
It is nice to see a calm and rational explanation on such a, shall we say, touchy subject.
Wise words gratefully received.
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Actually, panchayat elections do take place. But it is normally the oldest and the richest in that village who get elected.
My apologies, Sri; you are correct to mention the panchayat elections, and I should have made it clear that I was referring to this particular situation - as the article pointed out "The unelected, all-male, council ...".
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I would like to note my thanks to Sriram since words did not fail him. The tendency that some of us have to treat any action in any country as indicative of the entire country be that India, the U.S., England or anyone else is foolish.
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I would like to note my thanks to Sriram since words did not fail him. The tendency that some of us have to treat any action in any country as indicative of the entire country be that India, the U.S., England or anyone else is foolish.
I agree.
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On Yahoo today
https://uk.news.yahoo.com/india-village-elders-sentenced-sisters-151317532.html#opmXSwl
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There has been a lot of back pedaling on this story.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-34111906
http://indianexpress.com/article/india/india-others/no-khap-meeting-in-decades-up-village-disputes-rape-diktat-claim/
It just shows how dangerous it is to leap to conclusions without establishing the actual facts. Even locally the truth is difficult to determine given that it is not possible to rely on the independence of the police or media. Police are often in cahoots with prominent local families, media just want sensational breaking news headlines.
This story was about an alleged ruling by a council with no legitimate authority, but legal Indian courts often make ludicrous rulings that need to be appealed and quashed. Recently, a ruling on a divorced woman not allowed to have sex without losing alimony, and another, pressed for by a human right lawyer, to remove the right for Jains to die by fasting.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-34105602