Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: floo on September 02, 2015, 08:38:29 AM
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.................between saying a prayer and touching wood in the hope thereof?
If you get lucky, prayer might give you the outcome you wish for, so will touching wood. It is all a matter of chance, imo.
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.................between saying a prayer and touching wood in the hope thereof?
If you get lucky, prayer might give you the outcome you wish for, so will touching wood. It is all a matter of chance, imo.
Indeed so! But I think the placebo effect is more likely from a god belief than from a lump of wood. :)
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.................between saying a prayer and touching wood in the hope thereof?
If you get lucky, prayer might give you the outcome you wish for, so will touching wood. It is all a matter of chance, imo.
Indeed so! But I think the placebo effect is more likely from a god belief than from a lump of wood. :)
You are probably right.
However, with a lump of wood you know it is a matter of chance, with prayers believers really believe there is someone at the other end of the line. If that is really the case and the deity can help people in desperate need but fails to do so, it must have a heart of stone! Of course the faithful will makes excuses for negative responses, whilst praising it to the skies if they get a good outcome.
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No difference at all - both are examples of magical thinking, i.e. the belief that acting in a prescribed ritualistic way can influence events according to your preferred outcome.
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However, with a lump of wood you know it is a matter of chance, with prayers believers really believe there is someone at the other end of the line. If that is really the case and the deity can help people in desperate need but fails to do so, it must have a heart of stone! Of course the faithful will makes excuses for negative responses, whilst praising it to the skies if they get a good outcome.
Not that I would say so on the relevant thread but there's an absolutely prime example of this very close to home ...
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You are probably right.
However, with a lump of wood you know it is a matter of chance, with prayers believers really believe there is someone at the other end of the line.
Pagans who believe in tree gods may disagree with you! :)
If that is really the case and the deity can help people in desperate need but fails to do so, it must have a heart of stone!
Do gods have hearts?
Of course the faithful will makes excuses for negative responses, whilst praising it to the skies if they get a good outcome.
Yes, the answer is the will of god whether it's positive or negative. ::)
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Do gods have hearts?
They're supposed to have desires, wishes and intentions.
Yes, the answer is the will of god whether it's positive or negative. ::)
Yeah ::)
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Do gods have hearts?
They're supposed to have desires, wishes and intentions.
Yes, the answer is the will of god whether it's positive or negative. ::)
Yeah ::)
Don't these gods have whatever atributes that have been written into their script, by the people that put these old surperstitious myths down into various forms of script?
ippy
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Don't these gods have whatever atributes that have been written into their script, by the people that put these old surperstitious myths down into variousa forms of script?
ippy
Absolutely! And their faithful ovine followers believe it all! ;D
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Dear Leonard,
Ovine!! Sheep like, yes that's me, baa baa black sheep, apparently that's not very PC. :(
Gonnagle.
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Dear Leonard,
Ovine!! Sheep like, yes that's me, baa baa black sheep, apparently that's not very PC. :(
Gonnagle.
But true.
ippy
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Dear ippy,
Which bit.
Gonnagle.
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Dear Leonard,
Ovine!! Sheep like, yes that's me, baa baa black sheep, apparently that's not very PC. :(
Gonnagle.
But true.
ippy
No, not true - just a rather simplistic and fatuous insulting generalisation
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Dear Leonard,
Ovine!! Sheep like, yes that's me, baa baa black sheep, apparently that's not very PC. :(
Gonnagle.
But true.
ippy
No, not true - just a rather simplistic and fatuous insulting generalisation
We don't agree,true?
ippy
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Dear Leonard,
Ovine!! Sheep like, yes that's me, baa baa black sheep, apparently that's not very PC. :(
Gonnagle.
But true.
ippy
No, not true - just a rather simplistic and fatuous insulting generalisation
We don't agree,true?
ippy
That is true not just for you and me, but me and anyone else and indeed me and me and me and...
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The wood can give you splinters π
Splinters can be removed, religion can damage you for a very long time!
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Splinters can be removed, religion can damage you for a very long time!
Floo, 'can' can mean "Have the opportunity or possibility to" - so the outcomes you posit don't inevitably occur.
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Pretty sure she knew that already, hence her use of the word can.
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Pretty sure she knew that already, hence her use of the word can.
Shaker, in the context of her many posts about the damage that religion does to people, I would suggest that she believes that religion damages people - full stop. I realise that her daughters are religious, thus placing her in a quandary, but then we all know that strongly held beliefs can wreak havoc with logic and reason ;)
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Pretty sure she knew that already, hence her use of the word can.
Shaker, in the context of her many posts about the damage that religion does to people, I would suggest that she believes that religion damages people - full stop. I realise that her daughters are religious, thus placing her in a quandary, but then we all know that strongly held beliefs can wreak havoc with logic and reason ;)
I don't see any quandary. Providing Christianity is taught without its dark side, no harm is done.
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Shaker, in the context of her many posts about the damage that religion does to people, I would suggest that she believes that religion damages people - full stop.
Anybody in touch with reality knows that religion can damage people. That's what Floo said, not that it always does so or inevitably does so. I know you'd give your left bollock for her to have said that, but she didn't and no amount of wriggling and writhing and spin on your part will make her have written something she didn't, so you can "suggest" until you turn puce but she didn't state what you want her to have stated. In various posts Floo acknowledges that faith gives some people succour sometimes - I see you're not touching those with a bargepole.
we all know that strongly held beliefs can wreak havoc with logic and reason ;)
No, some of us know that. We see it here on a daily basis.
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Splinters can be removed, religion can damage you for a very long time!
Floo, 'can' can mean "Have the opportunity or possibility to" - so the outcomes you posit don't inevitably occur.
I said 'can'! Religion if it is of the mainstream live and let live variety usually does no harm, but the proselytising sort often does untold damage.
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Funny how quiet those who believe the deity answers prayers have been on this thread. They are always willing to make excuses when the deity doesn't come up trumps!
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If that is really the case and the deity can help people in desperate need but fails to do so, it must have a heart of stone! Of course the faithful will makes excuses for negative responses, whilst praising it to the skies if they get a good outcome.
Floo, what do you regard as 'desperate need'?
It puts me in mind of the modern parable of the guy who was caught up on the roof of his house in a flood and prays to be rescued. First a neighbour came by in a small boat and offers him a way out. The guy thanks him but says 'No thanks, God is coming to rescue me'. Then a larger motor boat arrives, but the guy gives the same response. Then a helicopter arrives above him, but again - the same response. Shortly after, he is swept away by a large wave and drowned. When he faces God, he asks why God didn't come to rescue him, to which God points out that he sent two boats and a helicopter.
I sometimes feel that non-believers believe that religious people simply pray for God's help. In a way, yes we do; we pray that the doctors will be able to use their God-given abilities to resolve what might be a very complex, multi-layered problem; we pray that someone who is terminally ill will not suffer pain and that the hospice or hospital staff will be able to make them as comfortable in their last days as possible; we often pray that the miracle of medical science will actually work on this or that person, especially when one remembers that no two incidences of a condition are identical, and doctors will necessarily need to tweak their abilities to each new case. In other words, we pray in and into the context.
OK, occasionally people will pray that their 95-year old granny will be restored to health despite that granny saying that she is quite happy to fade away - but often is this in response to a fear of a future without them as opposed to the best for the granny? After all, this can happen to any of us, assuming that medicine can resolve something as straight-forward and natural as old age.
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... but the proselytising sort often does untold damage.
In what way(s), Floo? By the way, are you using the term 'proselytising' in the modern sense, where it is synonymous with 'evangelising', or the older sense where it meant promising physical benefits in return for conversion?
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...we pray that the doctors will be able to use their God-given abilities ...
Are you kidding? Those abilities are learned from the efforts of humans to better their own lot. Your "God" had nothing to do with it.
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Hope, prayers are being asked for on the prayer board at present for a family in desperate need due to the very tragic circumstances facing them. If the lady concerned should recover I am in no doubt the deity will get all the accolades going. If she doesn't recover, the deity will not be blamed.
If the deity is capable of making people better why doesn't it do so, instead of playing silly beggars much of the time?
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Hope, prayers are being asked for on the prayer board at present for a family in desperate need due to the very tragic circumstances facing them. If the lady concerned should recover I am in no doubt the deity will get all the accolades going. If she doesn't recover, the deity will not be blamed.
If the deity is capable of making people better why doesn't it do so, instead of playing silly beggars much of the time?
Floo, are there human agents who God can use in this case (I haven't read the thread, because of the abuse that I've seen so often on that board).
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Hope, prayers are being asked for on the prayer board at present for a family in desperate need due to the very tragic circumstances facing them. If the lady concerned should recover I am in no doubt the deity will get all the accolades going. If she doesn't recover, the deity will not be blamed.
If the deity is capable of making people better why doesn't it do so, instead of playing silly beggars much of the time?
Floo, are there human agents who God can use in this case (I haven't read the thread, because of the abuse that I've seen so often on that board).
EXCUSES, EXCUSES! ::)
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Are you kidding? Those abilities are learned from the efforts of humans to better their own lot. Your "God" had nothing to do with it.
And you have incontrovertible evidence to prove this claim, Len?
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EXCUSES, EXCUSES! ::)
Are you suggesting that applying God-given human abilities is an excuse for God's apparently not getting involved? I'd suggest that if these abilities are God-given - and no-one here has yet to provide any evidence (naturalistic or supernatural) that they aren't - surely they've been given for the express purpose of those with them acting as God's agents.
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Funny how quiet those who believe the deity answers prayers have been on this thread. They are always willing to make excuses when the deity doesn't come up trumps!
There isn't a need for excuses. You asked;.................
what is the difference
.......between saying a prayer and touching wood in the hope thereof?
If you get lucky, prayer might give you the outcome you wish for, so will touching wood. It is all a matter of chance, imo.
What is your opinion worth....
Are you saying touching wood works for you... Are you saying no member of your family have prayed for another member of the family and received an answer to their prayers..
I can guarantee you never have touched wood for anything serious and other members of your family have prayed when something worrying come along and hey presto they got well or help came.
May be the truth is you already know the answers as the believers do. Prayer works and has results but touching wood is a useless superstition and has no powerful affect in anyway.
Why ask believers something you in your reality and in a truthful opinion would have stated that outcomes when prayers been said has been favourable. But touching wood hasn't. Did you really need a believer to show you how your replies were totally without any basis.
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When we are in a desperate situation, we will try anything and everything that might possibly help us. Many atheists, myself included, will ask a god of some sort to help, even though we don't believe there is one.
That is simply because nobody knows for certain that such a thing does or doesn't exist.
Any port in a storm is a very human action.
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I'm currently reading a fascinating book on East Anglian magic and folklore. It details everything from keeping mummified cats by the hearth to charms to trap 'imps' in bottles. People were just as likely to consult the local cunning man or wise woman as pray in church.
For me intent is key. I've mentioned before that I have no issue with destroying photographs. If however I deliberately scratched a face out of a photograph with the intent that it would hurt that person I believe it would have an effect because of what it would release within me.
I don't see the point in praying for things that go against the natural order. Asking for better health won't happen if you then eat pizza on the sofa, but if a prayer or ritual then focuses one's intent to eat better and be more active then it has done its job.
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I'd suggest that if these abilities are God-given - and no-one here has yet to provide any evidence (naturalistic or supernatural) that they aren't
There goes the fallacy alarm!
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EXCUSES, EXCUSES! ::)
Are you suggesting that applying God-given human abilities is an excuse for God's apparently not getting involved? I'd suggest that if these abilities are God-given - and no-one here has yet to provide any evidence (naturalistic or supernatural) that they aren't - surely they've been given for the express purpose of those with them acting as God's agents.
If I was in a position to rescue someone who was in desperate need of help, I would act on that immediately not sit there in the hope someone else might do it, and possibly cock it up!
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Funny how quiet those who believe the deity answers prayers have been on this thread. They are always willing to make excuses when the deity doesn't come up trumps!
There isn't a need for excuses. You asked;.................
what is the difference
.......between saying a prayer and touching wood in the hope thereof?
If you get lucky, prayer might give you the outcome you wish for, so will touching wood. It is all a matter of chance, imo.
What is your opinion worth....
Are you saying touching wood works for you... Are you saying no member of your family have prayed for another member of the family and received an answer to their prayers..
I can guarantee you never have touched wood for anything serious and other members of your family have prayed when something worrying come along and hey presto they got well or help came.
May be the truth is you already know the answers as the believers do. Prayer works and has results but touching wood is a useless superstition and has no powerful affect in anyway.
Why ask believers something you in your reality and in a truthful opinion would have stated that outcomes when prayers been said has been favourable. But touching wood hasn't. Did you really need a believer to show you how your replies were totally without any basis.
Touching wood is as effective as saying a prayer, as I know for a fact!.
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Rhi,
You think a screwball could stick pins in a little figurine that represents me and I would feel it? Come on now, no seriously?
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Rhi,
You think a screwball could stick pins in a little figurine that represents me and I would feel it? Come on now, no seriously?
That's not what she said - as I read it, she was referring to the fact such a thing has negative, harmful consequences, not for the target of ill will but for the one who harbours such sentiments. Buddhists say that directing anger at others is like picking up a hot coal to throw at someone; all that actually happens of course is that you burn yourself.
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I didn't write that she SAID anything. Pay attention Shaker, I asked a question. Old Shaker is going anal big time today. (snork)
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Rhi,
You think a screwball could stick pins in a little figurine that represents me and I would feel it? Come on now, no seriously?
That's not what she said - as I read it, she was referring to the fact such a thing has negative, harmful consequences, not for the target of ill will but for the one who harbours such sentiments. Buddhists say that directing anger at others is like picking up a hot coal to throw at someone; all that actually happens of course is that you burn yourself.
Exactly. And I think that can have such a distortion on one that it impacts on the wellbeing of others around you.
Of course if you damage a photograph as a form of release then that's different. It's intent, as I said.
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I'd suggest that if these abilities are God-given - and no-one here has yet to provide any evidence (naturalistic or supernatural) that they aren't
There goes the fallacy alarm!
Thanks for alerting me to the fact that you'd pontificated, Shakes. I almost missed it.
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If I was in a position to rescue someone who was in desperate need of help, I would act on that immediately not sit there in the hope someone else might do it, and possibly cock it up!
OK, Floo, your daughter has travelled to Australia and been seriously injured in a car accident. Are you in a position to 'rescue' her in her time of need? If not, do you simply ignore the situation or does your mind immediately turn to hoping that the Aussie doctors (who might not be able to play cricket ;)) can sort the issue?
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If I was in a position to rescue someone who was in desperate need of help, I would act on that immediately not sit there in the hope someone else might do it, and possibly cock it up!
OK, Floo, your daughter has travelled to Australia and been seriously injured in a car accident. Are you in a position to 'rescue' her in her time of need? If not, do you simply ignore the situation or does your mind immediately turn to hoping that the Aussie doctors (who might not be able to play cricket ;)) can sort the issue?
Hope the flipping deity is supposed to be omnipotent so doesn't need the aid of humans to perform a 'miracle'!
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I'd suggest that if these abilities are God-given - and no-one here has yet to provide any evidence (naturalistic or supernatural) that they aren't
There goes the fallacy alarm!
Thanks for alerting me to the fact that you'd pontificated, Shakes. I almost missed it.
Only if pontificate is in your vocabulary equal to 'pointing out that you've just employed your favourite massive logical fallacy yet again.'
Which it probably is.
Since you're evidently so touchy about whenever somebody picks you up on it every time you exhibit some form of lazy, sloppy thinking (since you've previously complained when I've previously pointed out your nigh-obsessive deployment of the negative proof fallacy), the easiest course would seem to be that you stop doing it, which in your case is practically every other day.
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.................between saying a prayer and touching wood in the hope thereof?
May I refer to you Psalm 115
Why do the nations say,
βWhere is their God?β
3 Our God is in heaven;
he does whatever pleases him.
4 But their idols are silver and gold,
made by human hands.
5 They have mouths, but cannot speak,
eyes, but cannot see.
6 They have ears, but cannot hear,
noses, but cannot smell.
7 They have hands, but cannot feel,
feet, but cannot walk,
nor can they utter a sound with their throats.
8 Those who make them will be like them,
and so will all who trust in them.
Or Isaiah 44 if you want to talk about wooden idols specifically ;D
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Hope, prayers are being asked for on the prayer board at present for a family in desperate need due to the very tragic circumstances facing them. If the lady concerned should recover I am in no doubt the deity will get all the accolades going. If she doesn't recover, the deity will not be blamed.
If the deity is capable of making people better why doesn't it do so, instead of playing silly beggars much of the time?
Floo, are there human agents who God can use in this case (I haven't read the thread, because of the abuse that I've seen so often on that board).
Abuse on the prayer board? I hardly think so.
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Hope, prayers are being asked for on the prayer board at present for a family in desperate need due to the very tragic circumstances facing them. If the lady concerned should recover I am in no doubt the deity will get all the accolades going. If she doesn't recover, the deity will not be blamed.
If the deity is capable of making people better why doesn't it do so, instead of playing silly beggars much of the time?
Floo, are there human agents who God can use in this case (I haven't read the thread, because of the abuse that I've seen so often on that board).
Abuse on the prayer board? I hardly think so.
None that I've ever seen. I and others have taken (for example) Alan Burns to task for all the nonsenses inherent in the concept of petitionary prayer, but on other sub-forums, not the PTA sub-forum.
I think Hope was just making it up.
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I'd suggest that if these abilities are God-given - and no-one here has yet to provide any evidence (naturalistic or supernatural) that they aren't
I suggest you talk to a few doctors and find out how they acquired their abilities. You'll find that they did a long stint at medical school in which they were forced to study and train hard. Then I suggest you read a good history of medicine to find out where the knowledge they studied hard to attain actually came from. You'll find it is the result of centuries of human endeavour. God β you'll find β is conspicuous by his absence.
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I suggest you talk to a few doctors and find out how they acquired their abilities. You'll find that they did a long stint at medical school in which they were forced to study and train hard. Then I suggest you read a good history of medicine to find out where the knowledge they studied hard to attain actually came from. You'll find it is the result of centuries of human endeavour. God β you'll find β is conspicuous by his absence.
Jeremy, did the medics you refer to enter medical school with absolutely no innate ability? Did they go to school when they were 4 or 5 with no mental acuity? Did they decide to study medicine at the last moment, or had they being preparing for this for some years?
As far as 'where the knowledge they studied hard to attain actually came from' is concerned, did it suddenly appear from a puff of smoke, or was it somehow within the brains of certain people ready to be made available to humanity.
Before you make such sweeping generalisations, you need to make sure that your 'where they came from' doesn't pre-suppose some magical appearance at point X in time.
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Hope, prayers are being asked for on the prayer board at present for a family in desperate need due to the very tragic circumstances facing them. If the lady concerned should recover I am in no doubt the deity will get all the accolades going. If she doesn't recover, the deity will not be blamed.
If the deity is capable of making people better why doesn't it do so, instead of playing silly beggars much of the time?
Floo, are there human agents who God can use in this case (I haven't read the thread, because of the abuse that I've seen so often on that board).
That's simply not true, Hope. If you look at the thread in question you will see believer and non-believer alike offering support, but on the board in general posters are respectful (see NS' thread on 9/11) and on the rare occasion someone does post out of turn it gets reported and removed.
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did the medics you refer to enter medical school with absolutely no innate ability? Did they go to school when they were 4 or 5 with no mental acuity? Did they decide to study medicine at the last moment, or had they being preparing for this for some years?
Their innate mental ability is a result of inheritance from their parents and possibly their early upbringing and experience. Their preparation for their medical courses involved years of study at school and hard working teachers.
Frankly, I think your intimation that medics' skills are "god given" does a disservice to all the people who worked so hard to get us to our present level of medical expertise.
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Frankly, I think your intimation that medics' skills are "god given" does a disservice to all the people who worked so hard to get us to our present level of medical expertise.
Exactly. It's not only stupid and lazy, it's a downright insult.
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I'm currently reading a fascinating book on East Anglian magic and folklore. It details everything from keeping mummified cats by the hearth to charms to trap 'imps' in bottles. People were just as likely to consult the local cunning man or wise woman as pray in church.
For me intent is key. I've mentioned before that I have no issue with destroying photographs. If however I deliberately scratched a face out of a photograph with the intent that it would hurt that person I believe it would have an effect because of what it would release within me.
I don't see the point in praying for things that go against the natural order. Asking for better health won't happen if you then eat pizza on the sofa, but if a prayer or ritual then focuses one's intent to eat better and be more active then it has done its job.
Wrong again! A curse or action won't harm a believer but it could come back on yourself. Christianity, is about forgiveness not revenge. It about the act of forgiveness and your last point is pretty moot too.
40 years the LORD God kept his people in the wilderness. There clothes and sandals never wore out. They had mainly manna for food and they were all healthy when they came out into the promise land.
Jesus Christ spent 40 days and night without food and water and in the desert.
He did not die and angels tended him after he was tempted by Satan. He offered him many things but the truth is...Man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.
It isn't what you eat that kills you it is your lack of knowledge about God.
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Christianity, is about forgiveness not revenge
But the you must be 'saved' lot don't believe that at all, if you don't believe you get sent to hell!
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Christianity, is about forgiveness not revenge
But the you must be 'saved' lot don't believe that at all, if you don't believe you get sent to hell!
Floo, do you have evidence for this latest reiteration of this claim - a claim that you have never produced any viable evidence for in the past? Remember that passages like that in Matt 25 refer to non-believers being allowed to follow the consequences that their choice naturally leads to - separation from God for eternity.
Matt 25:46 states "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life". This makes no suggestion that anyone is 'despatched to' or 'sent to' anywhere - it indicates that individuals will simply be allowed to take the consequences of their choices. Parallel passages in other gospels say the same.
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I'm currently reading a fascinating book on East Anglian magic and folklore. It details everything from keeping mummified cats by the hearth to charms to trap 'imps' in bottles. People were just as likely to consult the local cunning man or wise woman as pray in church.
For me intent is key. I've mentioned before that I have no issue with destroying photographs. If however I deliberately scratched a face out of a photograph with the intent that it would hurt that person I believe it would have an effect because of what it would release within me.
I don't see the point in praying for things that go against the natural order. Asking for better health won't happen if you then eat pizza on the sofa, but if a prayer or ritual then focuses one's intent to eat better and be more active then it has done its job.
Wrong again! A curse or action won't harm a believer but it could come back on yourself. Christianity, is about forgiveness not revenge. It about the act of forgiveness and your last point is pretty moot too.
40 years the LORD God kept his people in the wilderness. There clothes and sandals never wore out. They had mainly manna for food and they were all healthy when they came out into the promise land.
Jesus Christ spent 40 days and night without food and water and in the desert.
He did not die and angels tended him after he was tempted by Satan. He offered him many things but the truth is...Man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.
It isn't what you eat that kills you it is your lack of knowledge about God.
Not much difference from the three bears providing Goldilocks with her breakfast.
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Christianity, is about forgiveness not revenge
But the you must be 'saved' lot don't believe that at all, if you don't believe you get sent to hell!
Floo, do you have evidence for this latest reiteration of this claim - a claim that you have never produced any viable evidence for in the past? Remember that passages like that in Matt 25 refer to non-believers being allowed to follow the consequences that their choice naturally leads to - separation from God for eternity.
Matt 25:46 states "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life". This makes no suggestion that anyone is 'despatched to' or 'sent to' anywhere - it indicates that individuals will simply be allowed to take the consequences of their choices. Parallel passages in other gospels say the same.
How silly.
ippy
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How silly.
Are you suggesting that the idea that people 'suffer' the consequences of their choices is silly, ippy? I thought that was one of the bases of humanistic thought ;)
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Are you suggesting that the idea that people 'suffer' the consequences of their choices is silly, ippy?
I rather think that ippy was referring to the idea of gods being involved in this as being silly, with which I'm in complete agreement.
I thought that was one of the bases of humanistic thought ;)
Not that I'm a humanist but I doubt it, given how obvious it is how often people don't suffer the consequences of their actions. Nor have I ever once seen it forming part of the definition of humanism from any quarter.
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How silly.
Are you suggesting that the idea that people 'suffer' the consequences of their choices is silly, ippy? I thought that was one of the bases of humanistic thought ;)
Shakes got it in one as for the rest of your post well of course I think about consequences only without superstition, myth or imagined magic in the way you do, that stuff is only in your mind Hope none of it's really exists, like I said it's silly.
ippy