Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => Politics & Current Affairs => Topic started by: wigginhall on September 03, 2015, 10:50:49 AM
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If you want to help refugees, there are a ton of places where you can do that now. I've found the facebook page 'refugees welcome UK', started by Rob Ford, helpful, but there are others.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1625303634416620/
You can donate food, clothing, accommodation to various places. You can donate money to the usual agencies, such as Red Cross, and some of the marine rescue organizations.
There are more and more local groups organizing, some of them on Rob Ford's facebook page.
Demonstration on 12 Sept, at Marble Arch, noon; also demos in other towns.
Don't mourn, organize.
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Thanks for that information Wiggs.
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More local demonstrations, 4th Manchester, 5th Cambridge, 6th Oxford, 7th Nottingham, 12th London, Glasgow and Dover. Check the above fb page for details. Local groups springing up all over the place also.
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Some more here
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/5-practical-ways-you-can-help-refugees-trying-to-find-safety-in-europe-10482902.html
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A couple local to me are actually going to Calais, to help people there; better than pontificating about it.
http://tinyurl.com/q3devbf
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Wiggi, how do you suggest that the housing and care for these refugees be funded? Reduce the International Aid budget perhaps? The problem then would be that the care and provision being provided for so many refugess in neighbouring countries to their own (such as Lebanon/Jordan/Turkey for Syrians) would be reduced resulting in even more people being forced to flee to Europe and other such places.
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Dear Hope,
What a wonderful Christian you are, our sins are coming home to roost, sins of the father, Exodus, you reap what you sow, Galatians.
But what the hell!! Let's talk pounds and pence, not human suffering.
Gonnagle.
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Dear Hope,
What a wonderful Christian you are, our sins are coming home to roost, sins of the father, Exodus, you reap what you sow, Galatians.
But what the hell!! Let's talk pounds and pence, not human suffering.
Gonnagle.
Karma Applaud, Gonners.
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Wiggi, how do you suggest that the housing and care for these refugees be funded? Reduce the International Aid budget perhaps? The problem then would be that the care and provision being provided for so many refugess in neighbouring countries to their own (such as Lebanon/Jordan/Turkey for Syrians) would be reduced resulting in even more people being forced to flee to Europe and other such places.
If you don't want to help, that's fine. There's no obligation.
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I've just seen the photograph of the man carrying the body of a 3 year-old who boy who was drowned - at the time I was sitting with my 2 year old grandson on my knee: and I'm not ashamed to say it moved me to tears.
For me donating money is probably the most effective way I can help, so I'm going to do that. I have heard a few people say that it isn't 'our problem' when it seems increasingly obvious that this has escalated to a point that it isn't something that we can now reasonably ignore.
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If you don't want to help, that's fine. There's no obligation.
It's not that I dont want to help - I believe that we ought to be taking some in, though whether the 19K Cambodians and Vietnamese we took in in the 80s, is a good example to aim for or not I'm not sure (I've heard this bandied about in various conversations on the net).
What many people, both here and abroad seem to forget or conveniently ignore is that we are amongst the top contributing nations to the work that is going on in places like Lebanon and Jordan amongst displaced Syrians, Kurds, etc
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I'm with you there, Gordon. I have a 2 year old (going on 22) and seeing that little boy... well, it killed me. Does just to think about it.
This isn't an immigration issue, this is just a basic humanitarian crisis. The former is completely irrelevant. These are people fleeing for there lives, and we all would. The images of the boy are beyond words, but just know that there are children under ISIS control who are being decapitated in front of their parents, and people being lined up and shot by youngsters who potentially have no choice.
In times like this, we should be putting petty differences aside and uniting to help these people in any way we can.
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In times like this, we should be putting petty differences aside and uniting to help these people in any way we can.
Andy, ids taking them into a culture that is a world away from that to which they are accustomed as helpful as helping them set up home somewhere close to home from where they will be able to return to their homes once this whole thing ends (if it does)? I'm not trying to argue against the migrants - just wondering which it is the best thing that we can do.
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I don't mind them coming here as long as they go to Cameron's constituency and stay in the houses of all the multimillionaire elites for life.
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In times like this, we should be putting petty differences aside and uniting to help these people in any way we can.
Andy, ids taking them into a culture that is a world away from that to which they are accustomed as helpful as helping them set up home somewhere close to home from where they will be able to return to their homes once this whole thing ends (if it does)? I'm not trying to argue against the migrants - just wondering which it is the best thing that we can do.
Issues worthy of consideration, no doubt... but secondary ones. I'm talking along the lines of saving people's lives here - not letting people, and more harrowingly, children, die unnecessary deaths that should be easily preventable.
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Issues worthy of consideration, no doubt... but secondary ones. I'm talking along the lines of saving people's lives here - not letting people, and more harrowingly, children, die unnecessary deaths that should be easily preventable.
Do we know where the most deaths occur - in and on the way to Internal or Neighbouring-Country Displacement camps, or en route to Europe via people smuggler routes?
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I don't mind them coming here as long as they go to Cameron's constituency and stay in the houses of all the multimillionaire elites for life.
Not sure that there are all that many 'multimillionaire elite' residences in the Witney constituency, Jack. Most of them live in the towns and cities, and aren't actually British anyway.
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I don't mind them coming here as long as they go to Cameron's constituency and stay in the houses of all the multimillionaire elites for life.
So you aren't moved by the sheer inhumanity of what is happening, Jack, if trite comments are all you can manage.
A fellow Scotsman said this a while back, and the last two lines still ring true today.
Many and sharp the num'rous ills
Inwoven with our frame!
More pointed still we make ourselves
Regret, remorse, and shame!
And man, whose heav'n-erected face
The smiles of love adorn, –
Man's inhumanity to man
Makes countless thousands mourn!
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Issues worthy of consideration, no doubt... but secondary ones. I'm talking along the lines of saving people's lives here - not letting people, and more harrowingly, children, die unnecessary deaths that should be easily preventable.
Do we know where the most deaths occur - in and on the way to Internal or Neighbouring-Country Displacement camps, or en route to Europe via people smuggler routes?
I've no idea.
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And throw your houses open to Syrian families. Why stop there surely Iraqi, afghan, Eritrean, Somali families are as deserving? How about doing the real Christian thing? Let's not have any border controls. Let's all build a fire and sing kumbaya.
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I've no idea.
In which case, your earlier comment - "Issues worthy of consideration, no doubt... but secondary ones." seems a bit daft. If displaced persons camps in neighbouring countries see a lower death rate than the use of people smugglers surely we ought to be concentrating more on these camps, and perhaps then doing what Cameron is expected to announce later today - taking people from those camps.
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I've no idea.
In which case, your earlier comment - "Issues worthy of consideration, no doubt... but secondary ones." seems a bit daft. If displaced persons camps in neighbouring countries see a lower death rate than the use of people smugglers surely we ought to be concentrating more on these camps, and perhaps then doing what Cameron is expected to announce later today - taking people from those camps.
I'm not debating over this, Hope. Let's just club together, eh.
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Yes, quite.
After all, it is not as if any one could have foreseen this situation or had been warned and so have put any effective policy, planning and operations in place to deal with the collapse of Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria, and so on and on. Or helped any ruined nation to develop except where a quick profit could be made.
Or the EU had any time to think about how to manage border, immigration or asylum issues, or even movement within the EU.
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Dearest Auntie,
All our creditors are banging on the door, they are shouting, "Time to Pay Up". :(
Gonnagle.
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Yes, quite.
After all, it is not as if any one could have foreseen this situation or had been warned and so have put any effective policy, planning and operations in place to deal with the collapse of Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria, and so on and on. Or helped any ruined nation to develop except where a quick profit could be made.
Or the EU had any time to think about how to manage border, immigration or asylum issues, or even movement within the EU.
Yes, governments don't seem to look many moves ahead. I suppose they expect that if you invade somewhere or start bombing, somehow things will turn out OK. Or maybe it's not even as explicit as that. Maybe it's hope. If we keep bombing, something will turn up that works.
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Andy, ids taking them into a culture that is a world away from that to which they are accustomed as helpful as helping them set up home somewhere close to home from where they will be able to return to their homes once this whole thing ends (if it does)? I'm not trying to argue against the migrants - just wondering which it is the best thing that we can do.
Why do you think their needs and desires are so different to ours to justify the claims that we'd be 'taking them into a culture that is a world away from that to which they are accustomed'.
I imagine the core things they want are identical to ours - security, a home and a job to provide for themselves and family. A chance to make their lives a bit better and to ensure that the chances that their children have in their lives are better again. Sounds pretty universal to me. How is that somehow alien to our culture Hope?
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I've supported the Refugee Council for many years and suggest their local offices would be a good place to ask how help is needed on a local level.
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Dear Me,
Mathew 25:40-46.
Gonnagle.
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Helping refugees is vital and it has to start with supporting those that are trying to improve the situations at the source. Some are scared by the numbers of refugees flowing into Europe. OK, I get that, but having a bit of experience helping a refugee family that escaped arrest behind the iron curtain and made it to Canada, you will not regret helping to settle these people. I don't believe people are so different from each other. The family we brought to our farm and got them going in their new life in Canada were true supportive friends to my parents. The bond between them started growing immediately and I think these refugees will be so grateful for the help that they will turn out to be quite like these refugees my parents took in.
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I don't believe people are so different from each other. The family we brought to our farm and got them going in their new life in Canada were true supportive friends to my parents. The bond between them started growing immediately and I think these refugees will be so grateful for the help that they will turn out to be quite like these refugees my parents took in.
I agree and that was the point I was making as a counter to Hope's view that somehow the cultural desires of refugees are somehow massively at odds with cultural norms in the UK. Frankly I'd bet my bottom dollar that the key things that these people want is stability, security and a safe place to live, raise their family and try to make a better life for themselves than the one they were forced to leave behind. And no doubt they will be both hugely grateful to and supportive of the communities that help them in this desperate time for them.
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Why do you think their needs and desires are so different to ours to justify the claims that we'd be 'taking them into a culture that is a world away from that to which they are accustomed'.
Largely because that is what I've heard from such folk on countless interviews. They often say that they would rather be close to where they originate from and then be able to return there when things settle down. If all we do is bring them over here, who will pay the bills when they want to return to Syria/Iraq/wherever with all their children?
I imagine the core things they want are identical to ours - security, a home and a job to provide for themselves and family. A chance to make their lives a bit better and to ensure that the chances that their children have in their lives are better again. Sounds pretty universal to me. How is that somehow alien to our culture Hope?
OK. Let's just make a scenario that could be similar to theirs. Jeremy Corbyn wins the Labour leadership election but then loses the 2020 Gen. Election. The leftwing of the party and other left-wing and anarchist groupings decide that they disagree with the vote, claiming that it has been rigged, and start a programme of civil diobedience and disorder. Slowly that escalates into civil war and anyone who has anything but left-wing political sympathies are threatened with losing their jobs and their homes.
Unlikely, I accept, but reflective of much of what happens in places like Syria and Libya. If you were one of these whose lifeand livelihood was threatened, would you prefer to be able to live in a camp in France or Germany from where you could hop back as soon as the trouble stopped, or would you rather go to Brazil, or Argentina?
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I agree and that was the point I was making as a counter to Hope's view that somehow the cultural desires of refugees are somehow massively at odds with cultural norms in the UK. Frankly I'd bet my bottom dollar that the key things that these people want is stability, security and a safe place to live, raise their family and try to make a better life for themselves than the one they were forced to leave behind. And no doubt they will be both hugely grateful to and supportive of the communities that help them in this desperate time for them.
What was the life they were forced to leave behind, PD? A stable, secure, safe place to live where they were working and raising their families? For many, that is precisely what they had until ISIS appeared on the scene, or Boko Haram/al Quaeda/... Many want to return to their pre-ISIS/etc lives, not be shipped off to somewhere hundreds or thousands of miles away where the culture is alien to that which they grew up with.
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Why do you think their needs and desires are so different to ours to justify the claims that we'd be 'taking them into a culture that is a world away from that to which they are accustomed'.
Largely because that is what I've heard from such folk on countless interviews. They often say that they would rather be close to where they originate from and then be able to return there when things settle down. If all we do is bring them over here, who will pay the bills when they want to return to Syria/Iraq/wherever with all their children?
Really!?!
You must be listening to different people to me. The ones I've heard are desperate to make a new start in a new place as their homeland and home towns are destroyed as is any chance of safety or security. Do you really think they are taking huge risks to get across to Europe or through Europe if all they want to do is settle near where they came from.
And even if they do wish, one day, to settle back in their homeland, helping them make a new life isn't a problem. If they are successful, and given the huge effort they've put to get to Europe suggest no lack of motivation, then likely they will create the means to return one day should they wish
I imagine the core things they want are identical to ours - security, a home and a job to provide for themselves and family. A chance to make their lives a bit better and to ensure that the chances that their children have in their lives are better again. Sounds pretty universal to me. How is that somehow alien to our culture Hope?
OK. Let's just make a scenario that could be similar to theirs. Jeremy Corbyn wins the Labour leadership election but then loses the 2020 Gen. Election. The leftwing of the party and other left-wing and anarchist groupings decide that they disagree with the vote, claiming that it has been rigged, and start a programme of civil diobedience and disorder. Slowly that escalates into civil war and anyone who has anything but left-wing political sympathies are threatened with losing their jobs and their homes.
Unlikely, I accept, but reflective of much of what happens in places like Syria and Libya. If you were one of these whose lifeand livelihood was threatened, would you prefer to be able to live in a camp in France or Germany from where you could hop back as soon as the trouble stopped, or would you rather go to Brazil, or Argentina?
I've no idea - but history tells us that once your homeland is destroyed (and that isn't just bricks and mortar, but often deep emotional scars) then returning may be the last thing you want to do. It isn't unreasonable to think that many of these people see their future in a new country, as a best approach to a life already ruined. But more significantly see the best for their children's futures as making a new start in a new country, which will become their children and their grandchildren's true home.
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I agree and that was the point I was making as a counter to Hope's view that somehow the cultural desires of refugees are somehow massively at odds with cultural norms in the UK. Frankly I'd bet my bottom dollar that the key things that these people want is stability, security and a safe place to live, raise their family and try to make a better life for themselves than the one they were forced to leave behind. And no doubt they will be both hugely grateful to and supportive of the communities that help them in this desperate time for them.
What was the life they were forced to leave behind, PD? A stable, secure, safe place to live where they were working and raising their families? For many, that is precisely what they had until ISIS appeared on the scene, or Boko Haram/al Quaeda/... Many want to return to their pre-ISIS/etc lives, not be shipped off to somewhere hundreds or thousands of miles away where the culture is alien to that which they grew up with.
Who is 'shipping them off' to new countries. From what I can see they are the ones making the decision to travel to these countries. No-one is forcing them to move beyond Turkey for example.
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Hope,
I think you will be pleasantly surprised at how well refugees will adjust and contribute to the country if given the opportunity. I don't about the Vietnamese boat people in the UK but the thousands that Canada took in did exactly that. I believe most of these people are true refugees not cue jumping illegal immigrants.
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Hope,
I think you will be pleasantly surprised at how well refugees will adjust and contribute to the country if given the opportunity. I don't about the Vietnamese boat people in the UK but the thousands that Canada took in did exactly that. I believe most of these people are true refugees not cue jumping illegal immigrants.
Agreed.
What Hope doesn't quite seem to recognise is that for many of these people their previous life is over, the memories of what have happened may be too painful ever to want to go back. And while once they might have felt very loyal to their home that has changed. And I'm sure many who are parents are now thinking about their children - their own lives have been ruined but they will do everything they can to give their children the best chance possible, and that may be in another country. Sure it will be painful, but for a 5 year old child is their future better in transit and then returning (if, and only if) Syria is restored to some sense of normality any time soon. Or are they better off making a new start somewhere else entirely - somewhere where their kids can be assured of a decent education, have chances to make a good life.
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Hope,
I think you will be pleasantly surprised at how well refugees will adjust and contribute to the country if given the opportunity. I don't about the Vietnamese boat people in the UK but the thousands that Canada took in did exactly that. I believe most of these people are true refugees not cue jumping illegal immigrants.
Agreed.
What Hope doesn't quite seem to recognise is that for many of these people their previous life is over, the memories of what have happened may be too painful ever to want to go back. And while once they might have felt very loyal to their home that has changed. And I'm sure many who are parents are now thinking about their children - their own lives have been ruined but they will do everything they can to give their children the best chance possible, and that may be in another country. Sure it will be painful, but for a 5 year old child is their future better in transit and then returning (if, and only if) Syria is restored to some sense of normality any time soon. Or are they better off making a new start somewhere else entirely - somewhere where their kids can be assured of a decent education, have chances to make a good life.
I agree. There will be some who do want to return home one day and rebuild what was and try to heal places and memories. But that lies in a hoped-for future. Right now though safety is the priority, simply staying alive, with a home and education for their children.
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I agree and that was the point I was making as a counter to Hope's view that somehow the cultural desires of refugees are somehow massively at odds with cultural norms in the UK. Frankly I'd bet my bottom dollar that the key things that these people want is stability, security and a safe place to live, raise their family and try to make a better life for themselves than the one they were forced to leave behind. And no doubt they will be both hugely grateful to and supportive of the communities that help them in this desperate time for them.
What was the life they were forced to leave behind, PD? A stable, secure, safe place to live where they were working and raising their families? For many, that is precisely what they had until ISIS appeared on the scene, or Boko Haram/al Quaeda/... Many want to return to their pre-ISIS/etc lives, not be shipped off to somewhere hundreds or thousands of miles away where the culture is alien to that which they grew up with.
Ask yourself this Hope.
In the 1930s thousands of jews were displaced from Germany as persecution and terror spread. They ended up in all sorts of countries as refugees. Many would carry horribly painful memories of those last months in their homeland - memories of friends and families who didn't escape, who ultimately ended up dead. Their memories would be inextricably clouded by that horror. Many would be families with young children.
Once the war was over and Germany restored to a sense of normality isn't it understandable that many didn't want to return to the scene of such horror but preferred to continue to live in their new country. Felt that although their own lives had been destroyed their children would be better building a new life as a British or USA citizen than returning to a Germany that they only knew as a young child.
Sounds reasonable to me, and I think this is the perfectly reasonable mindset of many of today's refugees. If you have a 5 year old child, what memory do they have of Syria, in what way is that home for them, particularly if it takes perhaps 10 years before they could reasonably return. Which is more home to a child. A place you left in terror at the age of 5 or the place you have lived, made friends, been educated etc etc from the age of 5 to 15?
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Hope,
I think you will be pleasantly surprised at how well refugees will adjust and contribute to the country if given the opportunity. I don't about the Vietnamese boat people in the UK but the thousands that Canada took in did exactly that. I believe most of these people are true refugees not cue jumping illegal immigrants.
Agreed.
What Hope doesn't quite seem to recognise is that for many of these people their previous life is over, the memories of what have happened may be too painful ever to want to go back. And while once they might have felt very loyal to their home that has changed. And I'm sure many who are parents are now thinking about their children - their own lives have been ruined but they will do everything they can to give their children the best chance possible, and that may be in another country. Sure it will be painful, but for a 5 year old child is their future better in transit and then returning (if, and only if) Syria is restored to some sense of normality any time soon. Or are they better off making a new start somewhere else entirely - somewhere where their kids can be assured of a decent education, have chances to make a good life.
I agree. There will be some who do want to return home one day and rebuild what was and try to heal places and memories. But that lies in a hoped-for future. Right now though safety is the priority, simply staying alive, with a home and education for their children.
Yup - the future for many of these people is the future of their children, not the future of the town where they once lived.
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I was thinking of parallels with Jewish refugees, and I think there were heroic stories and nasty stories of people helping them, and refusing them help. There are stories of refugee ships being turned away, and also that some Jews were refused entry to Switzerland, which seems odd.
This old poster is rather astonishing, as it shows Jews trying to escape by boat in a stormy sea.
http://www.ushmm.org/lcmedia/photo/lc/image/08/08336.jpg
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Oh, when you said "old poster" I first thought you were talking about yourself! :P
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Well, this old poster grew up in Manchester, and I had many Jewish friends. Anyway, I believe that Manchester had received several thousand Jewish refugees, fleeing from fascist Europe in the 30s. Many schmutter-cutters I think.
Legend has it that they were received quite poorly in some areas, lots of anti-semitism, I guess. History repeats itself, the first time as tragedy ...
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My little town opened its doors to refugees from Bosnia, there was a drop-off point where we could bring clothes, bedding and household items.
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Well, this old poster grew up in Manchester, and I had many Jewish friends. Anyway, I believe that Manchester had received several thousand Jewish refugees, fleeing from fascist Europe in the 30s. Many schmutter-cutters I think.
Legend has it that they were received quite poorly in some areas, lots of anti-semitism, I guess. History repeats itself, the first time as tragedy ...
Yea, my dad talks fondly of the Jewish community in Salford, harking back to a Jewish bakery in Broughton that he still considers to be the best bread he's ever had. My gramps, however, had a different outlook, but then he was a prick.
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My great uncle marched with Moseley til he realised what they were doing. He tried to stop the blackshirts attacking the Jewish businesses and got the crap beaten out of him.
My nan talked sadly of the internment of her Italian neighbours who, she was certain, were a threat to nobody.
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My great uncle marched with Moseley til he realised what they were doing. He tried to stop the blackshirts attacking the Jewish businesses and got the crap beaten out of him.
I have to admit that my grandad joined Mosley's motley crew in the 1930s, but that was only because he needed a clean new shirt.
Here all week, folks, try the fish ;)
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My little town opened its doors to refugees from Bosnia, there was a drop-off point where we could bring clothes, bedding and household items.
Yeah, I suppose Bosnians were sort of OK, being white, but on the other hand, they were also Muslims (some of them), and the women wore head-scarves, bad, very bad.
I was wondering if there was a catastrophe in say, Denmark, and thousands of Danes had to flee - would there be such a fuss at taking them in?
Syrians are brown, and again, Muslim (mostly), and probably secret terrorists.
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Well, this old poster grew up in Manchester, and I had many Jewish friends. Anyway, I believe that Manchester had received several thousand Jewish refugees, fleeing from fascist Europe in the 30s. Many schmutter-cutters I think.
Legend has it that they were received quite poorly in some areas, lots of anti-semitism, I guess. History repeats itself, the first time as tragedy ...
I must admit that I sometimes think there are a lot of rose tinted spectacles about that time.
You'd get the impression that everything was open armed welcoming of jewish refugees, but I don't think that was the case. Don't forget that there was a lot of anti semitism in the UK at the time too, and plenty of support for far right politics (think Mosely). So sure there were people who were helpful and supportive but also many who were hostile of these 'incomers' and suspicious of them, probably believing a lot of the jewish stereotypes of the time.
So rather than compare a supposed golden age of helping refugees with the tardy response of the UK today, perhaps we should reflect that in the 1930s there were plenty of people who didn't want any more immigrants coming in, just as there are today. But as we look back at the 1930s it is easy for us to recognise with hindsight that that attitude was dangerously wrong. And that may help us to rethink our approach now.
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My little town opened its doors to refugees from Bosnia, there was a drop-off point where we could bring clothes, bedding and household items.
Yeah, I suppose Bosnians were sort of OK, being white, but on the other hand, they were also Muslims (some of them), and the women wore head-scarves, bad, very bad.
I was wondering if there was a catastrophe in say, Denmark, and thousands of Danes had to flee - would there be such a fuss at taking them in?
Syrians are brown, and again, Muslim (mostly), and probably secret terrorists.
Indeed - but of course those fleeing are probably as anti-ISIS and what they stand for as we are, and indeed that's why they were having to flee.
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Syrians are brown, and again, Muslim (mostly), and probably secret terrorists.
That's because many Syrian Christians are either in camps in Lebanon or Jordan - from which we will, I understand, be bringing the 1000's that David cameron has been talking about.
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I was wondering if there was a catastrophe in say, Denmark, and thousands of Danes had to flee - would there be such a fuss at taking them in?
Where would they prefer to go; somewhere close to home - such as Germany, other Scandanavian countries, the UK; or South Africa?
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Many Jewish refugees moved to Palestine, eventually creating the state of Israel, ramifications of which have been a major factor in the rise in Muslim disaffection and extremism, and the current crisis.
The Kurdi family, including the toddler whose death has been leading the headlines, were heading for Canada, where their immigration application had already been turned down.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/04/world/europe/syria-boy-drowning.html?_r=0
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as we look back at the 1930s it is easy for us to recognise with hindsight that that attitude was dangerously wrong. And that may help us to rethink our approach now.
Some of us don't really need much of a rethink, though, seeng no difference worth mentioning between Jews in 1938 and Syrians in 2015.
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I was wondering if there was a catastrophe in say, Denmark, and thousands of Danes had to flee - would there be such a fuss at taking them in?
Where would they prefer to go; somewhere close to home - such as Germany, other Scandanavian countries, the UK; or South Africa?
Are you not following this thread at all? That's been addressed already.
The underlying implication of your comments consistently on this thread however speaks volumes.
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I was wondering if there was a catastrophe in say, Denmark, and thousands of Danes had to flee - would there be such a fuss at taking them in?
Where would they prefer to go; somewhere close to home - such as Germany, other Scandanavian countries, the UK; or South Africa?
Not really a sensible comparison to make if you are still digging a hole on your earlier point.
Germany and other scandinavian countries are developed affluent and able to support the aspirations of the hypothetical refugees from Denmark. The countries adjoining Syria aren't able to support those aspirations. So many refugees, although maybe still loving their homeland, will take a decision to make a new start somewhere which can give them a better life, not just compared to their current war torn homeland, but also their homeland before the conflict. Why is that such a difficult concept to get. And also why is it difficult to understand that a parent who will be bringing up a child in a new country might recognise that their new home will necessarily become their child's real home - their original homeland some vague early childhood memory for that child. And for the child home will be the UK, Canada, Germany, Australia etc, not Syria. And if their home isn't going to be Syria, better to be a country like UK, Canada, Germany, Australia that can help that child have a better life than relatively impoverished countries such as Lebanon or Jordan, even though they are nearer.
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You are over-thinking this, Hope.
The urgent problem is that people are fleeing in terror from places where they are unsafe and are likely to remain unsafe - so they need urgent help and support and then longer-term stability.
Whether they can ever return home because they will be safe there will depend on whether Syria etc can be ever be made safe again, and if so whether they would wish to return - and the longer it takes the more likely these refugees will have settled elsewhere.
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I was wondering if there was a catastrophe in say, Denmark, and thousands of Danes had to flee - would there be such a fuss at taking them in?
Where would they prefer to go; somewhere close to home - such as Germany, other Scandanavian countries, the UK; or South Africa?
Are you not following this thread at all? That's been addressed already.
The underlying implication of your comments consistently on this thread however speaks volumes.
And reading the article about the terrible Kurdi family tragedy it appears they were trying to get to Canada where the father's sister already lived, near Vancouver. If you have been displaced from your homeland, surely being with family (particularly family living somewhere safe who can help you) may be much more important than being somewhere near Syria.
So question for Hope - if there was horrific conflict in the UK and you were displaced, would you prefer to be housed in a temporary manner in France (perhaps for years and years as you have no idea when, if ever, it might be safe to return to the UK) or relocate to Canada if you had family already settled there.
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You are over-thinking this, Hope.
The urgent problem is that people are fleeing in terror from places where they are unsafe and are likely to remain unsafe - so they need urgent help and support and then longer-term stability.
Whether they can ever return home because they will be safe there will depend on whether Syria etc can be ever be made safe again, and if so whether they would wish to return - and the longer it takes the more likely these refugees will have settled elsewhere.
Indeed, and their children will likely consider the place where they settle as 'home' rather than Syria. If you were brought up from the age of 5 in Canada (even though born in Syria) would you be thinking of 'returning' to Syria 15 years later as a return to home, or as being moved away from your home (i.e. Canada) - I think the latter.
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Right now I think the returning home question is an irrelevance. When you are in a fight for your existence you only want to get through the next few days, then months; five years away seems like an impossibility. Today it is about keeping men alive, women safe from routine rape and children safe from torture. That's the beginning and end of it.
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Bravo.
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Dear Thread,
Double Bravo.
Gonnagle.
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Udayana,
Just to be clear, immigration Canada received no application for the Abdullah Kurdi family. His brother Muhammed's application was rejected because it was incomplete.
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JC,
OK, I wasn't trying to criticize Canada particularly, just indicating a couple of points:
- Syrian and other refugees have a huge range of countries as eventual destinations, not only in Europe. There is no real reason they could not be flown directly from where they are to the destination, without use of people smugglers, toy inflatables etc to cross the Med.
- If they apply for normal immigration to any destination they are usually turned down
- There is no clear way distinguish between "genuine refugees" and economic migrants, certainly without fully investigating each case. The debate in the UK often results in the conclusion that "genuine refugees are OK and deserve our help, other migrants should be left in France"
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My ex in-laws live in East London and repeated as truth the stories of 'Bozzos' stealing babies. They were the new gypsies and so the Syrian refugees will be. Skin colour irrelevant; we just love having people to scapegoat, hate and fear.
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I don't mind them coming here as long as they go to Cameron's constituency and stay in the houses of all the multimillionaire elites for life.
Not sure that there are all that many 'multimillionaire elite' residences in the Witney constituency, Jack. Most of them live in the towns and cities, and aren't actually British anyway.
It wasn't a single statement. Any millionaires in Britain especially those in London and the southeast.
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I don't mind them coming here as long as they go to Cameron's constituency and stay in the houses of all the multimillionaire elites for life.
So you aren't moved by the sheer inhumanity of what is happening, Jack, if trite comments are all you can manage.
A fellow Scotsman said this a while back, and the last two lines still ring true today.
Many and sharp the num'rous ills
Inwoven with our frame!
More pointed still we make ourselves
Regret, remorse, and shame!
And man, whose heav'n-erected face
The smiles of love adorn, –
Man's inhumanity to man
Makes countless thousands mourn!
There are 7 billion people on this planet and that in itself is killing this planet and hence mankind. These people; all people, breed like rats and don't consider this consequence. What is the point of saving anyone if all it will do is encourage them to breed even more and hence drive us further into the mire?
So it is hard for me to really feel much for such people; or any people, though I'm not totally heartless and I can understand their many peoples' plights.
What I tend to focus on are the powerful; that just seems to be my nature, and as such those who have caused this mess i.e. western governments and powers, and who have got away with murder. This whole mess has come about because the western powers have for decades looked after their own in loading the trade dice. The EU has trade tariffs which make it near impossible for, say African countries, to trade fairly and sell their goods in the EU. We then take their best people to prop up our needs like their doctors, nurses etc., which impoverishes them further, and then pour in our 'aid' (waving the moral flag to show how great we are) as cheap food so taking their local produce out of the market equation so bankrupting their own industries and so forth. This 'aid' comes with strings attached and is used as a propaganda tool to preach the western way of life. The West often tries to have pro-West leaders/dictators in such countries who often are paid off and as such do not help their people and so wars and conflicts breakout. All these issues are used to control them for they have to basically beg or be sycophantic towards the west, just as people on benefits can be controlled in a similar way, hence the Lefties desire to give hand outs to the poor; to mother them in the bad sense. Because of all this we, that includes the person in the street in the western world as well as the other countries not counted as part of the western world, have no rule of law - international law is far from impartial!!!
None of this mass immigration that is going on now would have occurred if trade had been fair and reasonable and we hadn't had the nutters Bush and Blair to blunder into Iraq, to just to name an obvious case.
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If we are handing out blame for the situation with ISIS Russia and China should also be included, as their objections made it too difficult to push the Assad regime towards democracy and human rights. The civil war, with the rebels left without enough support to defeat Assad, left the vacuum for ISIS to occupy.
Germany will accept around 800,000 migrants; there is little doubt that gainful employment will be created for them, and they will eventually boost the German economy well beyond the costs of integrating them into it.
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My ex in-laws live in East London and repeated as truth the stories of 'Bozzos' stealing babies. They were the new gypsies and so the Syrian refugees will be.
That's very interesting - 'Bozzo.' I've never once heard the term before in my life, but I do happen to known that the surname Boswell is common in the gypsy community. And donkey's years ago it used to be an urban myth that gypsies stole babies. Coincidence?
Skin colour irrelevant; we just love having people to scapegoat, hate and fear.
Yeah >:(
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Seems some are on a blame game here so I'll tell ya this, the Syrians themselves must shoulder some of the blame for what has happened to their country.
Believe it or not they are the same as here. You have decent people and despicable people. I know a Syrian lady who falls into the latter. Her father was a diplomat for Assad's father. So she was raised in privates schools and by nannies in Paris and Rome and Damascus. So her step mother and little half brother are in Damascus and are desperate to get out. She called Sh..a pleading for help to escape. Sh..a told her no, stay there and die. They very well might be now.
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If we are handing out blame for the situation with ISIS Russia and China should also be included, as their objections made it too difficult to push the Assad regime towards democracy and human rights. The civil war, with the rebels left without enough support to defeat Assad, left the vacuum for ISIS to occupy.
Germany will accept around 800,000 migrants; there is little doubt that gainful employment will be created for them, and they will eventually boost the German economy well beyond the costs of integrating them into it.
The reason why Russia didn't back the situation in Syria was because of what the West did in Libya. The Security Council agreed to stop Gaddafi doing the civilian slaughter in Benghasi but nothing else, but the West went on to remove Gaddafi by doing bombing raids where it had no sanction to do so - again no rule of law brought them to account, giving a freehand for them to do what they want. As Russia has a vested interest in Syria they were not going to trust the West not to do the same to Assad. The West only has itself to blame for the mess we see in the Middle East and the swarm of migrants now trying to enter Europe.
Why can't Germany take 2 million if they love them so much?
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True, Libya is just more evidence that the USA/EU are incompetent at handling these conflicts and do so only to their own, short term, advantage.
It's not that Germany loves the Syrians, just that they are more able to see and grapple with the longer term issues. I don't know if they have any ideas about how to halt ISIS and the conflict in Syria and the ME itself, but does anyone?
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http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/we-need-to-look-after-our-own-first-say-people-who-would-never-help-anyone-20150907101741
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http://www.panarabiaenquirer.com/wordpress/syria-only-weeks-away-from-bono-charity-single-warns-un/
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Andy, ids taking them into a culture that is a world away from that to which they are accustomed as helpful as helping them set up home somewhere close to home from where they will be able to return to their homes once this whole thing ends (if it does)? I'm not trying to argue against the migrants - just wondering which it is the best thing that we can do.
Why do you think their needs and desires are so different to ours to justify the claims that we'd be 'taking them into a culture that is a world away from that to which they are accustomed'.
I imagine the core things they want are identical to ours - security, a home and a job to provide for themselves and family. A chance to make their lives a bit better and to ensure that the chances that their children have in their lives are better again. Sounds pretty universal to me. How is that somehow alien to our culture Hope?
Why is there country so different to ours? Dictators or people who have never advanced themselves or their country? Why did they fail to make themselves better lives in their own countries? We managed it on an Island. I am asking because if they come here will they expect it all for nothing and want to change our country to be like the one they are escaping?
When we have so many living on the streets should we be housing foreigners not refugees above our own people? We need to get our own off the streets first into decent living accommodation and ONLY then look to help those coming here. Charity begins at home. Get our homeless and mentally ill off the streets and then look to what we have left for the foreigners coming here.
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The Wee Ginger Dug is atheist.
There's nothing wrong with that...but his attitude in his commentary today should shame many who try to call themselves Christian.
https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2015/09/06/the-precious-little-princess/
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That's the second brilliant WGD link/article in a few weeks every word of which I've agreed with. Bookmarked. (The recent post, 'One Year on', about the first anniversary of his partner's death is a magnificent though heart-rending piece of witing).
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When we have so many living on the streets should we be housing foreigners not refugees above our own people? We need to get our own off the streets first into decent living accommodation and ONLY then look to help those coming here. Charity begins at home. Get our homeless and mentally ill off the streets and then look to what we have left for the foreigners coming here.
What a convenient fall back position. It's almost as if all these people on our streets have just magically appeared.
But they haven't Sass they have been there for years ignored by all of us most of the time as we pass by on the way to the pub/theatre/ restaraunt.
And now, but only now you feel the need to press them into use in your appaling Little Britain argument against helping refugees.
And you call yourself a Christian. You should be ashamed of yourself.
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The Wee Ginger Dug is atheist.
There's nothing wrong with that...but his attitude in his commentary today should shame many who try to call themselves Christian.
https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2015/09/06/the-precious-little-princess/
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Agreed absolutely.
Paul's blogs on his partner's increasing vascular dementia over the last few years have been moving, witty - even amusing as well.
He speaks a whole lot of sense on the politics front as well!
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And you call yourself a Christian.
But then so does Iain Duncan "University-of-Perugia-well-nearly-sort-of-I-can-live-on-£53-a-week" Smith.
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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/11848755/I-wouldnt-have-a-Syrian-refugee-in-my-house.-That-doesnt-make-me-evil.html
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True, Libya is just more evidence that the USA/EU are incompetent at handling these conflicts and do so only to their own, short term, advantage.
It's not that Germany loves the Syrians, just that they are more able to see and grapple with the longer term issues. I don't know if they have any ideas about how to halt ISIS and the conflict in Syria and the ME itself, but does anyone?
You have hit the nail on the head there with short term. Everything with Western politics, if not all, is that it is myopic for a quick gain or gratification. All long term consequences get no look in or if they are acknowledged in some small way are just kicked down the road.
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http://www.buzzfeed.com/ryanhatesthis/this-guy-wrote-the-perfect-anti-emigration-facebook-rant?bffbuk&utm_term=4ldqphz#4ldqphz