Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Humph Warden Bennett on September 06, 2015, 02:02:55 PM
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I feel very very sorry for the child here.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/11847104/Woman-impregnated-by-mistake-with-black-mans-sperm-loses-court-case.html
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Hopefully the kid will have all the love and care it needs ... they seem intelligent parents.
However, I don't think the clinic concerned should just get away with a 'partial refund'. It was a gigantic error, and they are solely responsible ... so they should pay a big compensation.
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Ya right these two ladies are worried that their mixed race child will face bigotry because she is mixed. I don't believe they are worried at all over that. It was just a case of them wanting to get some money. I mean they are gays, and it's the skin colour that is going to make life tough for the little girl? Not believable. What is believable is their balls. No parade for you ladies!
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Ya right these two ladies are worried that their mixed race child will face bigotry because she is mixed. I don't believe they are worried at all over that. It was just a case of them wanting to get some money. I mean they are gays, and it's the skin colour that is going to make life tough for the little girl? Not believable. What is believable is their balls. No parade for you ladies!
You really are an unbelievably unpleasant arse and your homophobia is unpleasant in the extreme!
What would the monkey on the rock think of your attitude to gays?
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Ya right these two ladies are worried that their mixed race child will face bigotry because she is mixed. I don't believe they are worried at all over that. It was just a case of them wanting to get some money. I mean they are gays, and it's the skin colour that is going to make life tough for the little girl? Not believable. What is believable is their balls. No parade for you ladies!
You really are an unbelievably unpleasant arse and your homophobia is unpleasant in the extreme!
What would the monkey on the rock think of your attitude to gays?
Monkey on the Rock?
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No Matty,
You are out of touch if you think children of same sex parents don't face bigotry from the community. Out of touch Matty, that's what even a monkey on a rock would think of somebody like you.
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Ya right these two ladies are worried that their mixed race child will face bigotry because she is mixed. I don't believe they are worried at all over that. It was just a case of them wanting to get some money. I mean they are gays, and it's the skin colour that is going to make life tough for the little girl? Not believable. What is believable is their balls. No parade for you ladies!
You really are an unbelievably unpleasant arse and your homophobia is unpleasant in the extreme!
What would the monkey on the rock think of your attitude to gays?
Monkey on the Rock?
Just a recent addition to JC's boring catch-phrases.
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Now that's not nice old man! Have a cookie and shuffle on outside and get some fresh air!
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The lady claims it's not about race. What a liar, it's everything to do about race. And she goes on and on about how her daughter will be treated because she is mixed and the two mommies wanted a white baby. Boo hoo hoo.
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Ya right these two ladies are worried that their mixed race child will face bigotry because she is mixed. I don't believe they are worried at all over that. It was just a case of them wanting to get some money. I mean they are gays, and it's the skin colour that is going to make life tough for the little girl? Not believable. What is believable is their balls. No parade for you ladies!
What a NASTY comment! >:(
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No Matty,
You are out of touch if you think children of same sex parents don't face bigotry from the community. Out of touch Matty, that's what even a monkey on a rock would think of somebody like you.
No, but the fact that you openly admit:
a) that it's bigotry; and
b) that it will happen
doesn't paint them in any better light. Why is it that you think anti-gay bigotry does happen but racial bigotry doesn't? Or is it just that, in your book, if you paint a homophobic veneer over your racial bigotry that someone makes it palatably?
You can't polish a turd, after all, but you can roll it in glitter.
O.
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No it is not floo! You are out of touch if you think children with same sex parents don't face persecution. What's with you to be so ignorant!
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Ya right these two ladies are worried that their mixed race child will face bigotry because she is mixed. I don't believe they are worried at all over that. It was just a case of them wanting to get some money. I mean they are gays, and it's the skin colour that is going to make life tough for the little girl? Not believable. What is believable is their balls. No parade for you ladies!
What a NASTY comment! >:(
So what's new, then?
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The lady claims it's not about race. What a liar, it's everything to do about race. And she goes on and on about how her daughter will be treated because she is mixed and the two mommies wanted a white baby. Boo hoo hoo.
Too stupid you - it is about medical negligence and that is why the mother has been told to resubmit her claim under that heading!
But now you have added racism to your homophobia - but you are a Christian so why am I not surprised!
If you dig down under the slab of contempt what will be found? You, of course.
I have a new nickname for you JC - Mary Poppins - practically perfect in every way! NOT!
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Come on - People!
Haven't we learned that when we see that a post on any subject is by Johnny Canoe it is going to be totally and utterly unpleasant and bigotted in just about every way that it is possible to be!
He is second in unquestionable perfection only to Hope. Or is he?
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Ya right these two ladies are worried that their mixed race child will face bigotry because she is mixed. I don't believe they are worried at all over that. It was just a case of them wanting to get some money. I mean they are gays, and it's the skin colour that is going to make life tough for the little girl? Not believable. What is believable is their balls. No parade for you ladies!
What a NASTY comment! >:(
Just what, exactly, did you expect? Erudution and compassion?
This is JC we are talking about!
So what's new, then?
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Get educated Matty,
Those two mommies LOST. They are liars. They claim its' not about race and then go on and on about how they are white and wanted a white baby. Can you be anymore foolish little Matty. You think they gave a damn about the community reaction to a mixed race baby? Really are you that ignorant? You don't get it! they cared NOT for what that little girl will face. There are oodles of mixed race people in Ohio little Matty. These ladies are not thinking about the little girl, only about themselves. I would respect them if they explained why the same sex parenting will not be an issue for the community but only the child's mixed race. Boo hoo hoo, we are white and wanted a white baby!
http://dailysignal.com/2015/04/20/children-raised-by-same-sex-couples-may-do-worse-when-the-couples-marry/
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Get educated Matty,
Those two mommies LOST. They are liars. They claim its' not about race and then go on and on about how they are white and wanted a white baby. Can you be anymore foolish little Matty. You think they gave a damn about the community reaction to a mixed race baby? Really are you that ignorant? You don't get it! they cared NOT for what that little girl will face. There are oodles of mixed race people in Ohio little Matty. These ladies are not thinking about the little girl, only about themselves. I would respect them if they explained why the same sex parenting will not be an issue for the community but only the child's mixed race. Boo hoo hoo, we are white and wanted a white baby!
http://dailysignal.com/2015/04/20/children-raised-by-same-sex-couples-may-do-worse-when-the-couples-marry/
Keep digging your hole, JC, you cynical, unpleasant sod. :)
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This about those two wanting a white baby cause they are white. That's it. It's not about the child treatment from the community at all. They LOST the case of course. They are a couple of, white is better for here, type losers. Sperm banks, that's just revolting! Poor child, her future looks bleak, now that everyone can read about how her selfish mommies didn't like what they got.(dada's sperm) That child is in for misery.
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This about those two wanting a white baby cause they are white. That's it. It's not about the child treatment from the community at all. They LOST the case of course. They are a couple of, white is better for here, type losers. Sperm banks, that's just revolting! Poor child, her future looks bleak, now that everyone can read about how her selfish mommies didn't like what they got.(dada's sperm) That child is in for misery.
Why is it wrong to want children who are like yourself?
O.
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They are using the people of Ohio as their excuse, that's what stinks about it. That's what makes me believe they are not honest ladies. That child has a bigger battle to face with the same sex parents thingy. Ohio was a destination hub for escaping slaves and has a huge African American population and oodles of people that are of mixed race. They are a couple of selfish liars.
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This about those two wanting a white baby cause they are white. That's it. It's not about the child treatment from the community at all. They LOST the case of course. They are a couple of, white is better for here, type losers. Sperm banks, that's just revolting! Poor child, her future looks bleak, now that everyone can read about how her selfish mommies didn't like what they got.(dada's sperm) That child is in for misery.
Why is it wrong to want children who are like yourself?
O.
Yes I have heard of deaf people wanting deaf children but that's probably another thread.
With regards this couple. What is it that prevents them from possibly being racist?
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This about those two wanting a white baby cause they are white. That's it. It's not about the child treatment from the community at all. They LOST the case of course. They are a couple of, white is better for here, type losers. Sperm banks, that's just revolting! Poor child, her future looks bleak, now that everyone can read about how her selfish mommies didn't like what they got.(dada's sperm) That child is in for misery.
Why is it wrong to want children who are like yourself?
O.
Yes I have heard of deaf people wanting deaf children but that's probably another thread.
With regards this couple. What is it that prevents them from possibly being racist?
Nothing prevents them being racist, but why would that be the first assumption? It's natural for people to want their children to look like them, and it's certainly a societal expectation - that's one of the reasons adoption agencies are reluctant in most instances to place children with parents of a differing racial background.
O.
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Because they stated they want a white baby and they are worried about how others will react with them having a mixed child.
They are inventing an problem for their child as a means of lining their pockets.
There are at least 4,000,000 people of mixed race in their state. What a couple of fakers.
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This about those two wanting a white baby cause they are white. That's it. It's not about the child treatment from the community at all. They LOST the case of course. They are a couple of, white is better for here, type losers. Sperm banks, that's just revolting! Poor child, her future looks bleak, now that everyone can read about how her selfish mommies didn't like what they got.(dada's sperm) That child is in for misery.
Why is it wrong to want children who are like yourself?
O.
Yes I have heard of deaf people wanting deaf children but that's probably another thread.
With regards this couple. What is it that prevents them from possibly being racist?
Nothing prevents them being racist, but why would that be the first assumption? It's natural for people to want their children to look like them, and it's certainly a societal expectation - that's one of the reasons adoption agencies are reluctant in most instances to place children with parents of a differing racial background.
O.
Whoooa there boy. I think you are on a bit of a sticky chucking in what is ''natural'' here. Who said the possibility of racism was the first consideration here. Are you saying the possibility shouldn't be discussed or swept under the carpet.
You seem to be introducing a hierarchy of concerns here where racial concerns come below consumer satisfaction.
What will the child think when it finds out how horrified it's parents were on it's arrival?
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This about those two wanting a white baby cause they are white. That's it. It's not about the child treatment from the community at all. They LOST the case of course. They are a couple of, white is better for here, type losers. Sperm banks, that's just revolting! Poor child, her future looks bleak, now that everyone can read about how her selfish mommies didn't like what they got.(dada's sperm) That child is in for misery.
Why is it wrong to want children who are like yourself?
O.
Yes I have heard of deaf people wanting deaf children but that's probably another thread.
With regards this couple. What is it that prevents them from possibly being racist?
Nothing prevents them being racist, but why would that be the first assumption? It's natural for people to want their children to look like them, and it's certainly a societal expectation - that's one of the reasons adoption agencies are reluctant in most instances to place children with parents of a differing racial background.
O.
Whoooa there boy. I think you are on a bit of a sticky chucking in what is ''natural'' here. Who said the possibility of racism was the first consideration here. Are you saying the possibility shouldn't be discussed or swept under the carpet.
You seem to be introducing a hierarchy of concerns here where racial concerns come below consumer satisfaction.
What will the child think when it finds out how horrified it's parents were on it's arrival?
Emigrate to Canada and join JC - you seem to be on the same unpleasant wavelength!
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Read the article - the Clinic has admitte that they supplied the sperm of a Black male BY MISTAKE!
The Clinic were, by their own admission, negligent - get over it Vlad and JC you racist idiots!
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This about those two wanting a white baby cause they are white. That's it. It's not about the child treatment from the community at all. They LOST the case of course. They are a couple of, white is better for here, type losers. Sperm banks, that's just revolting! Poor child, her future looks bleak, now that everyone can read about how her selfish mommies didn't like what they got.(dada's sperm) That child is in for misery.
Why is it wrong to want children who are like yourself?
O.
Yes I have heard of deaf people wanting deaf children but that's probably another thread.
With regards this couple. What is it that prevents them from possibly being racist?
Nothing prevents them being racist, but why would that be the first assumption? It's natural for people to want their children to look like them, and it's certainly a societal expectation - that's one of the reasons adoption agencies are reluctant in most instances to place children with parents of a differing racial background.
O.
Whoooa there boy. I think you are on a bit of a sticky chucking in what is ''natural'' here. Who said the possibility of racism was the first consideration here. Are you saying the possibility shouldn't be discussed or swept under the carpet.
You seem to be introducing a hierarchy of concerns here where racial concerns come below consumer satisfaction.
What will the child think when it finds out how horrified it's parents were on it's arrival?
Emigrate to Canada and join JC - you seem to be on the same unpleasant wavelength!
No you are trying to be ''right on'' and ''opportunist'' here while actually not considering the feelings of this couples child and racial issues.
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This about those two wanting a white baby cause they are white. That's it. It's not about the child treatment from the community at all. They LOST the case of course. They are a couple of, white is better for here, type losers. Sperm banks, that's just revolting! Poor child, her future looks bleak, now that everyone can read about how her selfish mommies didn't like what they got.(dada's sperm) That child is in for misery.
Why is it wrong to want children who are like yourself?
O.
Yes I have heard of deaf people wanting deaf children but that's probably another thread.
With regards this couple. What is it that prevents them from possibly being racist?
Nothing prevents them being racist, but why would that be the first assumption? It's natural for people to want their children to look like them, and it's certainly a societal expectation - that's one of the reasons adoption agencies are reluctant in most instances to place children with parents of a differing racial background.
O.
Whoooa there boy. I think you are on a bit of a sticky chucking in what is ''natural'' here. Who said the possibility of racism was the first consideration here. Are you saying the possibility shouldn't be discussed or swept under the carpet.
You seem to be introducing a hierarchy of concerns here where racial concerns come below consumer satisfaction.
What will the child think when it finds out how horrified it's parents were on it's arrival?
Emigrate to Canada and join JC - you seem to be on the same unpleasant wavelength!
No you are trying to be ''right on'' and ''opportunist'' here while actually not considering the feelings of this couples child and racial issues.
If you bothered to read the article, instead of just piggybacking JC, you would see that the parents have staed that they love the child regardless of its mixed race, they are claiming the Cilinc's negligence will result in the child they love being persecuted by racists like you and JC
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It is about race for those two liars. What don't you get Matty? Are you always this silly. I'm all for mixed race and condemn those ladies for using the people of Ohio to line their pockets. My Metis Nation rocks it you silly man! We are a MIXED NATION! DUH! What were your grades like in school?
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This about those two wanting a white baby cause they are white. That's it. It's not about the child treatment from the community at all. They LOST the case of course. They are a couple of, white is better for here, type losers. Sperm banks, that's just revolting! Poor child, her future looks bleak, now that everyone can read about how her selfish mommies didn't like what they got.(dada's sperm) That child is in for misery.
Why is it wrong to want children who are like yourself?
O.
Yes I have heard of deaf people wanting deaf children but that's probably another thread.
With regards this couple. What is it that prevents them from possibly being racist?
Nothing prevents them being racist, but why would that be the first assumption? It's natural for people to want their children to look like them, and it's certainly a societal expectation - that's one of the reasons adoption agencies are reluctant in most instances to place children with parents of a differing racial background.
O.
Whoooa there boy. I think you are on a bit of a sticky chucking in what is ''natural'' here. Who said the possibility of racism was the first consideration here. Are you saying the possibility shouldn't be discussed or swept under the carpet.
You seem to be introducing a hierarchy of concerns here where racial concerns come below consumer satisfaction.
What will the child think when it finds out how horrified it's parents were on it's arrival?
Emigrate to Canada and join JC - you seem to be on the same unpleasant wavelength!
No you are trying to be ''right on'' and ''opportunist'' here while actually not considering the feelings of this couples child and racial issues.
If you bothered to read the article, instead of just piggybacking JC, you would see that the parents have staed that they love the child regardless of its mixed race, they are claiming the Cilinc's negligence will result in the child they love being persecuted by racists like you and JC
How am I a racist?
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YOU, Matty are the one that bitched about your area being full of immigrants and no longer British. Huh, some nerve lying about me with your racist accusation. You have issues don't you, poor thing.
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For Matty,
Just so you don't make a fool out of yourself again, claiming I am racist.
My mixed nation the Metis.
http://firstpeoplesofcanada.com/fp_metis/fp_metis1.html
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For Matty,
Just so you don't make a fool out of yourself again, claiming I am racist.
My mixed nation the Metis.
http://firstpeoplesofcanada.com/fp_metis/fp_metis1.html
Yeah but you are a mix of two WHITE races - you are still racist!
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How foolish you are being Matty. The Cree are not a white race. They came from the Mongolian area originally, many moons ago. Too funny you!
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Here is a white Cree for ya silly Matty.
http://library.usask.ca/northwest/background/pound.htm
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Here is a white Cree for ya silly Matty.
http://library.usask.ca/northwest/background/pound.htm
Mongol = NOT Negroid!
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Oh my world! You have issues Matty. I'm going to leave you to stew. You think there is only a white race and a black race. God help ya.
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No Matty,
You are out of touch if you think children of same sex parents don't face bigotry from the community. Out of touch Matty, that's what even a monkey on a rock would think of somebody like you.
Looks to me from what you say Canada is quite a way behind the UK, apart from the odd few weirdos that we all have to suffer.
We have same sex parenting here, what's the problem? In my experience not many people even notice.
ippy
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I'm going to leave you to stew.
HOO-FUCKING-RAY!
You finally got the message - it took you bloody long enough!
Peace at last!
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Ya right these two ladies are worried that their mixed race child will face bigotry because she is mixed. I don't believe they are worried at all over that. It was just a case of them wanting to get some money. I mean they are gays, and it's the skin colour that is going to make life tough for the little girl? Not believable. What is believable is their balls. No parade for you ladies!
Just spotted this post of yours, it seems to me Canada is very much behind the times, when you consider all of our distant ancestors were black to start with, what's the problem? Could it be that you think that things like sorrow and the tears are not the same for people that are a different colour from you?
By the way this is a British Forum so stop calling biscuits cookies.
ippy
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Ippy,
You are going on just like little Matty. We are talking about Ohio, not your island nor here in God's country Alberta. Give your head a shake. Those ladies don't give a flip about what that child is going to face. If you think that child will not face problems from the community over having two mommies than you are a jokers fool. They don't care ippy, it's about them not her.
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Here is a taste of the reality ippy and others. A couple people stand up for bullied children with same sex parents, most do not. Wake up ippy!
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/entertainment/2012/03/children-of-gay-parents-bullied-would-you-intervene/
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Ippy,
My point is those ladies conning you into believing that a mixed child will be bullied but not a child of same sex parents. They are not honest, it's about them and what they want, not the child. And just to keep you real, Canada was years ahead of you and the USA on legalizing same sex marriage.
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Ya right these two ladies are worried that their mixed race child will face bigotry because she is mixed. I don't believe they are worried at all over that. It was just a case of them wanting to get some money. I mean they are gays, and it's the skin colour that is going to make life tough for the little girl? Not believable. What is believable is their balls. No parade for you ladies!
Just spotted this post of yours, it seems to me Canada is very much behind the times, when you consider all of our distant ancestors were black to start with, what's the problem? Could it be that you think that things like sorrow and the tears are not the same for people that are a different colour from you?
By the way this is a British Forum so stop calling biscuits cookies.
ippy
Behind the times, Ippy?
They and Americans are positively mediaeval!
If you are gay - you have no rights (even if those rights are guarenteed under the Constitution that they are so proud of)
If you are non-white - you have no rights (even if those rights are guarenteed under the Constitution that they are so proud of)
If you are non-Christian - you have no rights (even if those rights are guarenteed under the Constitution that they are so proud of)
If you are living in abject poverty - you have no rights (even if those rights are guarenteed under the Constitution that they are so proud of)
If you are homeless - you have no rights (even if those rights are guarenteed under the Constitution that they are so proud of)
So, if you are gay, Pagan or atheist, negroid, poor and homeless you are well and truly screwed!
By the way - Nice point about the cookies!
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Don't really see what this has to do with parents being a same sex couple, presumably the same kind of mistake can happen with hetero parents or same race or mixed race parents.
Neither does it overtly have anything to do with bullying.The parents are claiming that "because of her upbringing she had stereotypical attitudes about black people and had “limited cultural competency” when dealing with African-Americans."
Which, admittedly, makes no sense to me - surely the parents are responsible for bringing the child up with suitable attitudes? Why would a black child need to be brought up with different attitudes than a white child?
What sort of compensation are they expecting for a child being the wrong race?
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Ya right these two ladies are worried that their mixed race child will face bigotry because she is mixed. I don't believe they are worried at all over that. It was just a case of them wanting to get some money. I mean they are gays, and it's the skin colour that is going to make life tough for the little girl? Not believable. What is believable is their balls. No parade for you ladies!
Just spotted this post of yours, it seems to me Canada is very much behind the times, when you consider all of our distant ancestors were black to start with, what's the problem? Could it be that you think that things like sorrow and the tears are not the same for people that are a different colour from you?
By the way this is a British Forum so stop calling biscuits cookies.
ippy
I don't think Mr Canoe has a problem with race Ippy but it seems that the couple who have this mixed race baby see that as some kind of handicap.
Mr Canoe points out that this is disingenuous because there is likely to be prejudice, not of Mr canoe's or my making, for the child over not having a heterosexual couple for parents.
I can see nothing wrong in what Mr Canoe has said. It has just been misinterpreted through the bigoted lens of campaigning paganism and antitheism.
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And philosophically naturalist totalitarianism as well, Vlad!
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Udayana,
My adopted parents had no experience with Metis and Cree culture yet they took me in and gave me their family. They were the best parents I could have hoped for.
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And philosophically naturalist totalitarianism as well, Vlad!
.........a case could be made.
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No, it couldn't, but that won't stop you trying ;)
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Just not honest that those two ladies were worried about the child's treatment from others over her mixed race and not about the two mommies thingy. They were only concerned about themselves.
http://tinyurl.com/opplxvj
Edited to replace long URL
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Don't really see what this has to do with parents being a same sex couple, presumably the same kind of mistake can happen with hetero parents or same race or mixed race parents.
Neither does it overtly have anything to do with bullying.The parents are claiming that "because of her upbringing she had stereotypical attitudes about black people and had “limited cultural competency” when dealing with African-Americans."
Which, admittedly, makes no sense to me - surely the parents are responsible for bringing the child up with suitable attitudes? Why would a black child need to be brought up with different attitudes than a white child?
What sort of compensation are they expecting for a child being the wrong race?
Quite.
ippy
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Ippy,
You are going on just like little Matty. We are talking about Ohio, not your island nor here in God's country Alberta. Give your head a shake. Those ladies don't give a flip about what that child is going to face. If you think that child will not face problems from the community over having two mommies than you are a jokers fool. They don't care ippy, it's about them not her.
For starters there is no such thing as gods country anywhere, it only exists inside your head.
Wherever these people are, they are years behind the UK, none of the things you describe are a problem here, what do you think it might be, a faulty culture, lack of a good standard of education or like Canada where the general population are nowhere as good looking as we are?
ippy
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Come on - People!
Haven't we learned that when we see that a post on any subject is by Johnny Canoe it is going to be totally and utterly unpleasant and bigotted in just about every way that it is possible to be!
He is second in unquestionable perfection only to Hope. Or is he?
No - I really don't think that is the case. I get no feeling of personal or more general homophobia from JC. He looks at things in a different way which I sometimes vehemently disagree with - but homophobic, no.
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Are you serious ipp? Gay children are bullied in your schools and you don't believe that children of same sex parents are bullied?
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Whoooa there boy. I think you are on a bit of a sticky chucking in what is ''natural'' here.
Really? Why?
Who said the possibility of racism was the first consideration here.
That's certainly the thrust of JC's commentary.
Are you saying the possibility shouldn't be discussed or swept under the carpet.
Did I do anything to suggest this, is this you warming to your new theme of 'intellectual totalitarianism' as a way of trying to avoid dealing with things?
You seem to be introducing a hierarchy of concerns here where racial concerns come below consumer satisfaction.
No, I'm saying there are legitimate racial concerns without there being racism.
[quoteWhat will the child think when it finds out how horrified it's parents were on it's arrival?[/quote]
I strongly suspect that will be dependent upon what the child's relationship with them is at the time, and how it gets broken to them.
O.
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Ippy,
My point is those ladies conning you into believing that a mixed child will be bullied but not a child of same sex parents. They are not honest, it's about them and what they want, not the child. And just to keep you real, Canada was years ahead of you and the USA on legalizing same sex marriage.
Where do they pretend the child won't possibly face victimisation from bigots because of its parents? The fact they didn't want multiple reasons for people to bully their child doesn't mean they're ignoring any of them.
O.
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There are over 4,000,000 mixed race people in Ohio. Chances that the child will be bullied for being mixed race are pretty much nill. They LOST their case. They were not concerned about the child being bullied for same sex parents enough not to go sperm shopping. It isn't about the child, it's all about what those two wanted. They are not being honest. Again, they lost.
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There are over 4,000,000 mixed race people in Ohio.
With a population of 11 million wiki says 2% are mixed race. Want me to give you a hand with the maths.
Chances that the child will be bullied for being mixed race are pretty much nill.
Even if you had got the population correct it still doesn't follow that discrimination would not occur.
They LOST their case. They were not concerned about the child being bullied for same sex parents enough not to go sperm shopping. It isn't about the child, it's all about what those two wanted. They are not being honest. Again, they lost.
Maybe they feel their community is more accepting of same sex couples than it is of ethnicity.
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Hopefully the kid will have all the love and care it needs ... they seem intelligent parents.
However, I don't think the clinic concerned should just get away with a 'partial refund'. It was a gigantic error, and they are solely responsible ... so they should pay a big compensation.
I would think breach of contract. Don't get me wrong, I am uneasy about children being conceived in this manner for a variety of reasons, but from a dispassionate point of view that would seem to be the logical course of action.
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Don't get me wrong, I am uneasy about children being conceived in this manner for a variety of reasons
Which are?
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We'll find out if and when HWB replies.
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You really do think children are useless don't you Shaker. That post you wrote some time back wasn't a joke, that's what you think of children.
A child having to go through the rest of their life, knowing daddy was nothing but a sperm donor from a clinic, and having everybody know this, and having a couple of women so selfish as to do this to you. And nothing from you? Their useless anyways right.
That child is going to be very troubled and those two ladies are to blame.
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A child having to go through the rest of their life, knowing daddy was nothing but a sperm donor from a clinic, and having everybody know this, and having a couple of women so selfish as to do this to you. And nothing from you? Their useless anyways right.
The child isn't going to have a 'daddy', it's going to have two mums who love it dearly and who give it everything they have and can, just like most parents. My wife and I are currently looking into a fertility treatment that will remove our genetics from the equation for a third child, as our previous two were both autistic: what does that make us? I'm not even a sperm donor in this equation, yet I'll be there at the birth and every day I can thereafter.
Parenting isn't about providing the raw materials, it's about providing love and plasters, understanding and discipline, knowledge and sympathy. It's about being there.
From your description adopted children should be hating the people who had the temerity to pretend they actually cared...
That child is going to be very troubled and those two ladies are to blame.
The evidence to date suggests that the fact that the child will be raised by two women rather than a man and a woman will make very little difference to their success or happiness, though they will likely be better of than a single-parent family. Don't let inconvenient things like the data get in the way of your prejudice, though, you keep on foaming at the mouth as much you like, it's a free country after all.
O.
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A child having to go through the rest of their life, knowing daddy was nothing but a sperm donor from a clinic, and having everybody know this, and having a couple of women so selfish as to do this to you. And nothing from you? Their useless anyways right.
The child isn't going to have a 'daddy', it's going to have two mums who love it dearly
Let's hope so. Apparently they were initially horrified at the birth.
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You really do think children are useless don't you Shaker. That post you wrote some time back wasn't a joke, that's what you think of children.
A child having to go through the rest of their life, knowing daddy was nothing but a sperm donor from a clinic, and having everybody know this, and having a couple of women so selfish as to do this to you. And nothing from you? Their useless anyways right.
No idea where this vapid twaddle comes from - certainly not from the 26 words I'd contributed to this thread up to this point - but as I think Outrider said very recently, why let facts and reality get in the way of another one of your swivel-eyed, reality-divorced, content-free bilious rants?
That child is going to be very troubled and those two ladies are to blame.
Assumption on your part.
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Plenty of fathers I know might as well have been sperm donors for all the good they've contributed to their children's lives. Even a few mothers. We need to stop this sentimental bullshit about parenting.
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Hear hear.
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Plenty of fathers I know might as well have been sperm donors for all the good they've contributed to their children's lives. Even a few mothers. We need to stop this sentimental bullshit about parenting.
I'd disagree, Rhi. I'd say that we need to start paying proper attention to the 'sentimental bullshit about parenting' - namely that both parents should know what its all about, that they should take equal shares in the process of bringing up their child, that they are both responsible for the physical, mental, emotional and spiritual well-being of that child, that they are both required in the life of that child, etc.
By the way, Rhi, could you amend whichever link has created this extra-wide format - I think it may have been one that Johnny C posted.
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Plenty of fathers I know might as well have been sperm donors for all the good they've contributed to their children's lives. Even a few mothers. We need to stop this sentimental bullshit about parenting.
I'd disagree, Rhi. I'd say that we need to start paying proper attention to the 'sentimental bullshit about parenting' - namely that both parents should know what its all about, that they should take equal shares in the process of bringing up their child, that they are both responsible for the physical, mental, emotional and spiritual well-being of that child, that they are both required in the life of that child, etc.
By the way, Rhi, could you amend whichever link has created this extra-wide format - I think it may have been one that Johnny C posted.
The sentimental bullshit has been around for years! Lots of years.
The only people who do not understand the responsibilities of parenting are those who are so selfish that they don't care.
The sentmetal bullshit is the much vaunted idea that parenting is the ultimate reason for male and female, nowhere are the pitfalls, the hard parts, given the prominence that is given to the beaming smiles, the perfectly behaved kids, the ultra-smart home with all mod-cons, that is, the sentimental bullshit!.
The sentimental bullshit leaves out all the possible dark parts of parenting:
The stress of getting little or no sleep for at least the first year and still having to go to work dog tired or, for the mother, having to try and keep the house in proper order and do the chores, while dog-tired;
The stress of getting little or no sleep whilst the child is teething (this period is even harder on the mother as she can't get away from it by going to work);
When the children get older they are not all perfect little angels, some kids, for hundreds of different reasons other than bad parenting, are, to put it bluntly, right little bastards.
. . . and so on, and so on!
Get rid of the sentimental bullshit and bring on a large and harsh dose of reality! Maybe then there will be fewer parents who are compleetly unprepared and completely unable to cope with the hardships of parenting because they believe the sentimental bullshit.
I know that you are going to tell us that on your extensive travels and in your incomparable knowledge of parenting all over the world and from you extensive and superlative academic knowledge that this is not so, and also, of course, most important of all, it is God's will that we should all be parents which is why he made male and female and why Christians are so against same sex marriages.
Oh, and, of course, you and your Mrs were superlative parents and your kids the epitome of what kids should be - especially other peoples kids who will be compared negatively to your own!
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A child having to go through the rest of their life, knowing daddy was nothing but a sperm donor from a clinic, and having everybody know this, and having a couple of women so selfish as to do this to you. And nothing from you? Their useless anyways right.
The child isn't going to have a 'daddy', it's going to have two mums who love it dearly
Let's hope so. Apparently they were initially horrified at the birth.
Horrified at the baby or horrified at the situation? Not that either is entirely inappropriate, it's a delicate time. As a parent of disabled children I can tell you that there's a huge swathe of guilt at the conflicting feelings you get each and every time you realise you've just your child for something that wasn't their fault.
O.
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The child isn't going to have a 'daddy', it's going to have two mums who love it dearly
Has there been any longitudinal studies carried out as to the psychological effect (+ve, -ve or neutral) on children who have 2 same-sex parents?
Has anything similar been done on children who have only ever had one parent, whether male of female(ie not children who have been through the trauma of parental divorce or the death of one of the parents)?
If there has been, do the two outcomes match in any way?
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Has there been any longitudinal studies carried out as to the psychological effect (+ve, -ve or neutral) on children who have 2 same-sex parents?
Has anything similar been done on children who have only ever had one parent, whether male of female(ie not children who have been through the trauma of parental divorce or the death of one of the parents)?
If there has been, do the two outcomes match in any way?
Yes, there have.
There's this one on same-sex parents and their lack of any discernible affect on children's well-being compared to mixed-sex parents.
http://qz.com/438469/the-science-is-clear-children-raised-by-same-sex-parents-are-at-no-disadvantage/
This one - http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11113-014-9329-6 "Differences that exist in child well-being are largely due to socioeconomic circumstances and family stability."
This one - http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/15504280802177615 "Extensive data available from more than 30 years of research reveal that children raised by gay and lesbian parents have demonstrated resilience with regard to social, psychological, and sexual health despite economic and legal disparities and social stigma. Many studies have demonstrated that children’s well-being is affected much more by their relationships with their parents, their parents’ sense of competence and security, and the presence of social and economic support for the family than by the gender or the sexual orientation of their parents. Lack of opportunity for same-gender couples to marry adds to families’ stress, which affects the health and welfare of all household members"
This one particularly about lesbian parents - http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/126/1/28.abstract "The 17-year-old daughters and sons of lesbian mothers were rated significantly higher in social, school/academic, and total competence and significantly lower in social problems, rule-breaking, aggressive, and externalizing problem behavior than their age-matched counterparts… Within the lesbian family sample, no Child Behavior Checklist differences were found among adolescent offspring who were conceived by known, as-yet-unknown, and permanently unknown donors or between offspring whose mothers were still together and offspring whose mothers had separated… Adolescents who have been reared in lesbian-mother families since birth demonstrate healthy psychological adjustment."
This one which shows how much better it is for children to be adopted into same-sex homes than it is for them to be left in state care - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20879687 "Children of same-sex couples are as likely to make normal progress through school as the children of most other family structures… the advantage of heterosexual married couples is mostly due to their higher socioeconomic status. Children of all family types (including children of same-sex couples) are far more likely to make normal progress through school than are children living in group quarters (such as orphanages and shelters)"
This one, with slight support for the idea that gay parents might produce a slightly higher incident of gay/gender-fluid children (interesting for those of us, and I include myself in this group, who think our sexuality is not a conscious choice) - http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1300/J461v03n02_05 Children in lesbian families felt less parental pressure to conform to gender stereotypes, were less likely to experience their own gender as superior and were more likely to be uncertain about future heterosexual romantic involvement. No differences were found on psychosocial adjustment. Gender typicality, gender contentedness and anticipated future heterosexual romantic involvement were significant predictors of psychosocial adjustment in both family types
And then the 2008 metastudy which reviews most of the available quality literature - http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2013/03/18/peds.2013-0377 "Analyses revealed statistically significant effect size differences between groups for one of the six outcomes: parent-child relationship. Results confirm previous studies in this current body of literature, suggesting that children raised by same-sex parents fare equally well to children raised by heterosexual parents"
The only piece I could find refuting the notion that children of same-sex couples suffered no apparent ill-effects was published on the Family Research Council's site and (in their words) 'Tops All Previous Research' without quite explaining why - http://www.frc.org/issuebrief/new-study-on-homosexual-parents-tops-all-previous-research. Their intepretation is far more damning than the abstract of the paper - http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0049089X12000610 - which merely shows children from single-sex families show a broader spread of behaviours as young adults, but not that they are particularly worse off.
Most frequently referenced UK news article on single parent families I could find - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/8064435/Children-in-single-parent-families-worse-behaved.html
Broad ranging comment piece that cites many studies - http://family.jrank.org/pages/1577/Single-Parent-Families-Effects-on-Children.html
Academic effects of single-parent homes for children (clue, it's not good) - http://scholarworks.wmich.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1044&context=hilltopreview
Intergenerational effects of single-parent families - http://www.irp.wisc.edu/publications/focus/pdfs/foc113c.pdf
http://www.frc.org/issuebrief/new-study-on-homosexual-parents-tops-all-previous-research
General consensus (both my personal interpretation, and that of the major meta-analysis cited) is that having children raised by two parents is significantly better than by one, that the gender balance of those parents makes little to no difference, and that any sort of home parenting is better than being left in state care.
O.
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Has there been any longitudinal studies carried out as to the psychological effect (+ve, -ve or neutral) on children who have 2 same-sex parents?
Has anything similar been done on children who have only ever had one parent, whether male of female(ie not children who have been through the trauma of parental divorce or the death of one of the parents)?
If there has been, do the two outcomes match in any way?
Yes, there have.
There's this one on same-sex parents and their lack of any discernible affect on children's well-being compared to mixed-sex parents.
http://qz.com/438469/the-science-is-clear-children-raised-by-same-sex-parents-are-at-no-disadvantage/
This one - http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11113-014-9329-6 "Differences that exist in child well-being are largely due to socioeconomic circumstances and family stability."
This one - http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/15504280802177615 "Extensive data available from more than 30 years of research reveal that children raised by gay and lesbian parents have demonstrated resilience with regard to social, psychological, and sexual health despite economic and legal disparities and social stigma. Many studies have demonstrated that children’s well-being is affected much more by their relationships with their parents, their parents’ sense of competence and security, and the presence of social and economic support for the family than by the gender or the sexual orientation of their parents. Lack of opportunity for same-gender couples to marry adds to families’ stress, which affects the health and welfare of all household members"
This one particularly about lesbian parents - http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/126/1/28.abstract "The 17-year-old daughters and sons of lesbian mothers were rated significantly higher in social, school/academic, and total competence and significantly lower in social problems, rule-breaking, aggressive, and externalizing problem behavior than their age-matched counterparts… Within the lesbian family sample, no Child Behavior Checklist differences were found among adolescent offspring who were conceived by known, as-yet-unknown, and permanently unknown donors or between offspring whose mothers were still together and offspring whose mothers had separated… Adolescents who have been reared in lesbian-mother families since birth demonstrate healthy psychological adjustment."
This one which shows how much better it is for children to be adopted into same-sex homes than it is for them to be left in state care - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20879687 "Children of same-sex couples are as likely to make normal progress through school as the children of most other family structures… the advantage of heterosexual married couples is mostly due to their higher socioeconomic status. Children of all family types (including children of same-sex couples) are far more likely to make normal progress through school than are children living in group quarters (such as orphanages and shelters)"
This one, with slight support for the idea that gay parents might produce a slightly higher incident of gay/gender-fluid children (interesting for those of us, and I include myself in this group, who think our sexuality is not a conscious choice) - http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1300/J461v03n02_05 Children in lesbian families felt less parental pressure to conform to gender stereotypes, were less likely to experience their own gender as superior and were more likely to be uncertain about future heterosexual romantic involvement. No differences were found on psychosocial adjustment. Gender typicality, gender contentedness and anticipated future heterosexual romantic involvement were significant predictors of psychosocial adjustment in both family types
And then the 2008 metastudy which reviews most of the available quality literature - http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2013/03/18/peds.2013-0377 "Analyses revealed statistically significant effect size differences between groups for one of the six outcomes: parent-child relationship. Results confirm previous studies in this current body of literature, suggesting that children raised by same-sex parents fare equally well to children raised by heterosexual parents"
The only piece I could find refuting the notion that children of same-sex couples suffered no apparent ill-effects was published on the Family Research Council's site and (in their words) 'Tops All Previous Research' without quite explaining why - http://www.frc.org/issuebrief/new-study-on-homosexual-parents-tops-all-previous-research. Their intepretation is far more damning than the abstract of the paper - http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0049089X12000610 - which merely shows children from single-sex families show a broader spread of behaviours as young adults, but not that they are particularly worse off.
Most frequently referenced UK news article on single parent families I could find - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/8064435/Children-in-single-parent-families-worse-behaved.html
Broad ranging comment piece that cites many studies - http://family.jrank.org/pages/1577/Single-Parent-Families-Effects-on-Children.html
Academic effects of single-parent homes for children (clue, it's not good) - http://scholarworks.wmich.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1044&context=hilltopreview
Intergenerational effects of single-parent families - http://www.irp.wisc.edu/publications/focus/pdfs/foc113c.pdf
http://www.frc.org/issuebrief/new-study-on-homosexual-parents-tops-all-previous-research
General consensus (both my personal interpretation, and that of the major meta-analysis cited) is that having children raised by two parents is significantly better than by one, that the gender balance of those parents makes little to no difference, and that any sort of home parenting is better than being left in state care.
O.
Brilliant and instructive post, Outrider. Congratulations.
This is a wonderfully instructive response to most bigotted attempts to put down same sex and single parent families.
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As a parent of disabled children I can tell you that there's a huge swathe of guilt at the conflicting feelings you get each and every time you realise you've just your child for something that wasn't their fault.
O.
Neither is it the parents fault! I feel terribly sad for you, O, and people in similar situations, and I can quite understand how you feel sometimes.
However, the blame lies entirely with nature and the way it works, and not with the parents, who are just as much innocent victims as the children.
If for one moment I believed that life and the universe were created by some great intelligence, then it would earn my eternal contempt and revulsion. Fortunately I don't, of course.
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Brilliant and instructive post, Outrider. Congratulations.
This is a wonderfully instructive response to most bigotted attempts to put down same sex and single parent families.
I heartily agree! I hope the dissenters will shut up once and for all, and admit they were wrong, but I suspect the hope is forlorn. :(
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Brilliant and instructive post, Outrider. Congratulations.
This is a wonderfully instructive response to most bigotted attempts to put down same sex and single parent families.
I heartily agree! I hope the dissenters will shut up once and for all, and admit they were wrong, but I suspect the hope is forlorn. :(
You suspect?
A good few years on the Beeb and a few on here and I am certain of it!
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Brilliant and instructive post, Outrider. Congratulations.
This is a wonderfully instructive response to most bigotted attempts to put down same sex and single parent families.
I heartily agree! I hope the dissenters will shut up once and for all, and admit they were wrong, but I suspect the hope is forlorn. :(
You suspect?
A good few years on the Beeb and a few on here and I am certain of it!
Let's give them the chance to respond, shall we? Certainly, in the past, a valid bone of contention had been that there wasn't sufficient long-term information, or from a broad-enough sample-set, to make definitive judgments - although there was no evidence to suggest there was any negative effect on the children of same-sex parents directly because of their same-sex situation, there wasn't enough confidence or depth in the findings to justify claiming it was risk-free.
Now, though, the research has moved on, with more studies, over longer periods - I suspect that's one of the reasons why Hope specifically asked for a longitudinal study, and why I was particularly pleased to find one that even went so far as to call itself such.
O.
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Let's give them the chance to respond, shall we? Certainly, in the past, a valid bone of contention had been that there wasn't sufficient long-term information, or from a broad-enough sample-set, to make definitive judgments
I'm a little bit concerned about the idea of making judgements at all based on these studies.
If it were valid to say "gay couples can't have children because their children are at a disadvantage (on average) compared to those of heterosexual couples" then it is also valid to say "poor couples can't have children because their children are at a disadvantage (on average) compared to those of richer couples" or "stupid couples can't have children because their children are at a disadvantage (on average) compared to those of more intelligent couples".
These are cans of worms I don't want to open.
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Let's give them the chance to respond, shall we? Certainly, in the past, a valid bone of contention had been that there wasn't sufficient long-term information, or from a broad-enough sample-set, to make definitive judgments
I'm a little bit concerned about the idea of making judgements at all based on these studies.
If it were valid to say "gay couples can't have children because their children are at a disadvantage (on average) compared to those of heterosexual couples" then it is also valid to say "poor couples can't have children because their children are at a disadvantage (on average) compared to those of richer couples" or "stupid couples can't have children because their children are at a disadvantage (on average) compared to those of more intelligent couples".
These are cans of worms I don't want to open.
People will make judgments regardless, that's human nature. Whether we should validate those judgments by implementing legislation is one thing, but whether those judgments are justified or not is another.
O.
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There are over 4,000,000 mixed race people in Ohio. Chances that the child will be bullied for being mixed race are pretty much nill. They LOST their case. They were not concerned about the child being bullied for same sex parents enough not to go sperm shopping. It isn't about the children's, it's all about what those two wanted. They are not being honest. Again, they lost.
Yes it is about what they wanted, but is it wrong to do that? The same sex bit is a bit of a red herring in that this could apply to any heterosexual couple where the man is infertile.
For example if you are a black couple or a white couple do you really expect to have a half Chinese baby and for one partner to be accused of knocking off the bloke from the local Chinese takeaway?
If people are married to some who is Chinese, then it's perfectly ok.
Or if someone is adopted, again that's fine.
It's about what couples are expecting and it would be a bit of a shock to someone of any colour to have to cope with the unexpected if it is likely to cause gossip.
Not everyone wants to have to explain they were impregnated.
Some just want to be a family.
How about changing your forum handle from Rose to Dynasaur? Or "Dustbin" these posts of yours on this thread are nonsensicle rubbish so Dustbin might be for the best.
You need to catch up with the times, you're referring to how things were quite a few years back more than thirty years to my knowledge; the view you're expressing was right on deaths door when we adopted our first mixed race son he's now thirtysix.
By the way having a coloured thread reappear in a family suddenly after several generations is an old wives tale but the darker skin can be dominant for a couple of generations; we had to go through fourty differing lectures before having our first of two boys and believe me they addoption services didn't leave much out thus the confidance telling you about that particular aspect of skin colour, we had it first hand from the experts.
By the way we are all one race the human race, why it would bother anyone to see an oriental with any other white or black child, or any other mixture you can think of, frankly Rose I do not understand what it is you're saying or why on earth you're thinking this way, thus my suggestion with your forum name.
You need to get over whatever it is or was that made you think in the way you've expressed yourself on this thread.
ippy