Religion and Ethics Forum

General Category => Politics & Current Affairs => Topic started by: Nearly Sane on September 07, 2015, 10:01:12 AM

Title: Carmichael case in court
Post by: Nearly Sane on September 07, 2015, 10:01:12 AM
While I think this has little chance of success, it is intriguing and I think under reported currently. Should it succeed it will have some very interesting repercussions.



http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-34154193
Title: Re: Carmichael case in court
Post by: jeremyp on September 07, 2015, 01:09:16 PM
Regardless of the merits of this case, I'd like there to be a recall system, because at the moment, MPs do not really have any accountability to their constituents. 

Given the first past the post system, an MP's first loyalty must be to the people he represents, not the party he belongs to (in my opinion) but the whipping system totally undermines that.

Title: Re: Carmichael case in court
Post by: Anchorman on September 07, 2015, 01:17:28 PM
While I think this has little chance of success, it is intriguing and I think under reported currently. Should it succeed it will have some very interesting repercussions.



http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-34154193



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Interesting that funding for the prosecution has come about by crowdfunding.
Title: Re: Carmichael case in court
Post by: Jack Knave on September 07, 2015, 07:02:57 PM
Regardless of the merits of this case, I'd like there to be a recall system, because at the moment, MPs do not really have any accountability to their constituents. 

Neither do the EU Commissionaires or the thousands that lobby them nor the endless bribes and payoffs. The EU is far from accountable and is a miasma of mafiaesque ratchet.
Title: Re: Carmichael case in court
Post by: jeremyp on September 07, 2015, 10:32:47 PM
Regardless of the merits of this case, I'd like there to be a recall system, because at the moment, MPs do not really have any accountability to their constituents. 

Neither do the EU Commissionaires or the thousands that lobby them nor the endless bribes and payoffs. The EU is far from accountable and is a miasma of mafiaesque ratchet.

What has that got to do with the Carmichael case?
Title: Re: Carmichael case in court
Post by: Harrowby Hall on September 08, 2015, 10:12:00 AM
Regardless of the merits of this case, I'd like there to be a recall system, because at the moment, MPs do not really have any accountability to their constituents. 

Given the first past the post system, an MP's first loyalty must be to the people he represents, not the party he belongs to (in my opinion) but the whipping system totally undermines that.

Constitutionally, a Member of Parliament is a representative not a delegate. He owes his constituents a duty of responsible consideration not slavish obediance. He represents all who voted, not just those who voted for him. Under the present constutional arrangements it would be very difficult to justify any recall process.

MPs argue that by supporting one party's programme exclusively they are showing resposible consideration and judgement.
Title: Re: Carmichael case in court
Post by: jeremyp on September 08, 2015, 03:52:59 PM


Constitutionally, a Member of Parliament is a representative not a delegate. He owes his constituents a duty of responsible consideration not slavish obediance. He represents all who voted, not just those who voted for him. Under the present constutional arrangements it would be very difficult to justify any recall process.


Yes but I am suggesting that the present constitutional arrangements be changed.  Therefore, this argument is invalid.
Title: Re: Carmichael case in court
Post by: Jack Knave on September 09, 2015, 07:00:12 PM
Regardless of the merits of this case, I'd like there to be a recall system, because at the moment, MPs do not really have any accountability to their constituents. 

Neither do the EU Commissionaires or the thousands that lobby them nor the endless bribes and payoffs. The EU is far from accountable and is a miasma of mafiaesque ratchet.

What has that got to do with the Carmichael case?
You're stupidly pro EU and you said,"I'd like there to be a recall system, because at the moment, MPs do not really have any accountability to their constituents."

So to be consistent, and not to be two faced and hypocritical, you should be horrified that the EU lot and Brussels are not accountable and can not be recalled by any measure.
Title: Re: Carmichael case in court
Post by: Harrowby Hall on September 09, 2015, 08:15:59 PM


Constitutionally, a Member of Parliament is a representative not a delegate. He owes his constituents a duty of responsible consideration not slavish obediance. He represents all who voted, not just those who voted for him. Under the present constutional arrangements it would be very difficult to justify any recall process.


Yes but I am suggesting that the present constitutional arrangements be changed.  Therefore, this argument is invalid.

No, it is not invalid. But it would be if your constitutional change occurred.
Title: Re: Carmichael case in court
Post by: jeremyp on September 09, 2015, 08:53:55 PM

You're stupidly pro EU and you said,"I'd like there to be a recall system, because at the moment, MPs do not really have any accountability to their constituents."

So to be consistent, and not to be two faced and hypocritical, you should be horrified that the EU lot and Brussels are not accountable and can not be recalled by any measure.

So this is a massive fallacious tu quoque argument.  Good for you.
Title: Re: Carmichael case in court
Post by: Outrider on September 10, 2015, 11:18:24 AM
Good to see the spirit of impartial journalism is as dead north of the border as it is this side... :(

O.
Title: Re: Carmichael case in court
Post by: Anchorman on September 10, 2015, 11:21:35 AM
Kavanagh has never claimed to be a journalist!
Title: Re: Carmichael case in court
Post by: Hope on September 10, 2015, 03:28:21 PM
Jim, are you suggesting that Alistair Carmichael has never been challenged by any other candidate, either for the Lib-Dems of any other party?  Are you suggesting that there hasn't been at least 3 opportunities for the electorate of his constituency to replace him since 2005?  Could reality be that the said electorate continued to support him, even on the grounds that he is the best of a bunch of poor options?

After all, an SNP majority in Scotland would almost inevitably have seen Labour fall short of a Westminster majority, as events have shown.
Title: Re: Carmichael case in court
Post by: Jack Knave on September 11, 2015, 12:07:44 PM

You're stupidly pro EU and you said,"I'd like there to be a recall system, because at the moment, MPs do not really have any accountability to their constituents."

So to be consistent, and not to be two faced and hypocritical, you should be horrified that the EU lot and Brussels are not accountable and can not be recalled by any measure.

So this is a massive fallacious tu quoque argument.  Good for you.
I hope you realise the tu quoque is on you.
Title: Re: Carmichael case in court
Post by: Nearly Sane on September 29, 2015, 02:01:26 PM

I have to admit to being a little surprised that this progressed but suspect that it is too interesting a case for the judges not to want to have the chance at history



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-34390705
Title: Re: Carmichael case in court
Post by: Nearly Sane on October 13, 2015, 06:33:02 AM
Blog laying out some of the problems that Alistair now finds himself in
 Still can't see how you can prove the case.


http://lallandspeatworrier.blogspot.co.uk/2015/10/carmichael-questions-carmichael-answers.html?m=1
Title: Re: Carmichael case in court
Post by: Nearly Sane on December 09, 2015, 11:26:23 AM
And case found to have reasonable doubt which seemed inevitable to me, though an interesting case


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-35049150
Title: Re: Carmichael case in court
Post by: ProfessorDavey on December 09, 2015, 03:33:32 PM
Given the first past the post system, an MP's first loyalty must be to the people he represents, not the party he belongs to (in my opinion) but the whipping system totally undermines that.
But I don't think you can really separate 'person' from 'party'.

With very few exceptions MPs are elected on the basis of the party they stand for. The notion of the 'persona' vote' i.e. people voting for the individual even though they wouldn't normally vote for that person's party is very limited. First and foremost people vote Labour, or Tory etc, the actual name on the ballot paper next to the party logo is secondary.

So I do think that an MP elected by his or her constituents on a 'party ticket' does need to have a responsibility to their party, because had they stood as an independent or for a different party they wouldn't have got elected.
Title: Re: Carmichael case in court
Post by: Nearly Sane on December 10, 2015, 08:36:45 AM
This


http://www.thenational.scot/comment/andrew-tickell-carmichael-survived-but-that-doesnt-mean-he-won.11020