Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => Politics & Current Affairs => Topic started by: Anchorman on September 11, 2015, 08:23:34 AM
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This thread falls between the political and the Christian boards, but I'll put it here - mods, feel free to move it.
I've just read David Robertson, a leading Scots presbyterian (and evangelical) Christian's take on the support Donald Trump appears to be gathering amongst the religious right Stateside.
I think it shows the division of evangelical thought between parts of the States and this side of the pond.
It's worth a read, anyway:
https://theweeflea.wordpress.com/2015/09/10/youve-been-trumped-donald-trump-and-american-evangelicals/
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David Robertson always an arse but does he not know anti-immigrant, xenophobic, misogynistic, protectionist politics are exactly what appeal to religious right.
Maybe you should put him in touch Alex Salmond, he was big buds with Trump for a while.
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David Robertson always an arse but does he not know anti-immigrant, xenophobic, misogynistic, protectionist politics are exactly what appeal to religious right.
But only in certain parts of the United States, jakswan. I know of some US groups who proudly regard themselves as belonging to the 'religious right' who are heavily involved in work with immigrants, women's rights, overseas aid and fairtrade projects.
That's the problem with generalist terms such as the 'religious right' or the 'looney left'.
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David Robertson always an arse but does he not know anti-immigrant, xenophobic, misogynistic, protectionist politics are exactly what appeal to religious right.
Maybe you should put him in touch Alex Salmond, he was big buds with Trump for a while.
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Er......As MSP for the area in which Trump tried to interfere, Eck had no option but BE involved.
However, his speeches and FMQ answers in Holyrood speak volumes for his opinion.
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David Robertson always an arse but does he not know anti-immigrant, xenophobic, misogynistic, protectionist politics are exactly what appeal to religious right.
Maybe you should put him in touch Alex Salmond, he was big buds with Trump for a while.
Er......As MSP for the area in which Trump tried to interfere, Eck had no option but BE involved.
However, his speeches and FMQ answers in Holyrood speak volumes for his opinion.
Yes he was a big fan of Trump before their tiff.
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David Robertson always an arse but does he not know anti-immigrant, xenophobic, misogynistic, protectionist politics are exactly what appeal to religious right.
. . . I know of some US groups . . . '.
Why does this not surprise me? The reverse would have done, but not this.
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Why does this not surprise me? The reverse would have done, but not this.
The reverse being ...?
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For those that missed it. The Moral Majority ceased to exist 25yrs ago. And the truth is it's the protectionist democrats in congress that have been giving Obama headaches as far as his trade deals go. When ever democrats gain power Canada braces for protectionist policies. And Obama is a protectionist democrat in his dealing with my country.
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Why does this not surprise me? The reverse would have done, but not this.
The reverse being ...?
The reverse being you announcing that you did NOT know "of some US groups who proudly regard themselves as belonging to the 'religious right' who are heavily involved in work with immigrants, women's rights, overseas aid and fairtrade projects."
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The reverse being you announcing that you did NOT know "of some US groups who proudly regard themselves as belonging to the 'religious right' who are heavily involved in work with immigrants, women's rights, overseas aid and fairtrade projects."
OK, I'll take out the US bit. Will that help? Matt, what you need to be aware of is that, as part of my professional English as a Foreign/Second/Additional Language networks as well as my interest in Fair Trade, I have had contacts with a large number of organisation the world over - some religious, some not - and therefore taken an interest in what is happening in a number of countries, in the areas of immigration, international trade, overseas aid and women's rights.
Now, I don't know how much interest you have in international affairs professionally, but if you do, you will know that one takes that level of interest in such situations.
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Matt, what you need to be aware of is that, as part of my professional English as a Foreign/Second/Additional Language networks as well as my interest in Fair Trade, I have had contacts with a large number of organisation the world over
Yes, yes ... somehow we suspected you might.
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Matt, what you need to be aware of is that, as part of my professional English as a Foreign/Second/Additional Language networks as well as my interest in Fair Trade, I have had contacts with a large number of organisation the world over - some religious, some not - and therefore taken an interest in what is happening in a number of countries, in the areas of immigration, international trade, overseas aid and women's rights.
Which may or may not be true, (I'd rather roll a dice than take your word on anything) you can have contacts with a huge number of people but doesn't mean you are an authority on any topic.
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The reverse being you announcing that you did NOT know "of some US groups who proudly regard themselves as belonging to the 'religious right' who are heavily involved in work with immigrants, women's rights, overseas aid and fairtrade projects."
OK, I'll take out the US bit. Will that help? Matt, what you need to be aware of is that, as part of my professional English as a Foreign/Second/Additional Language networks as well as my interest in Fair Trade, I have had contacts with a large number of organisation the world over - some religious, some not - and therefore taken an interest in what is happening in a number of countries, in the areas of immigration, international trade, overseas aid and women's rights.
Now, I don't know how much interest you have in international affairs professionally, but if you do, you will know that one takes that level of interest in such situations.
Oh, I am not in anyway doubting your "contacts with a large number of organisation the world over - some religious, some not" - what I am questioning is the fact that, as yet, no matter what the subject, no matter what the context, no matter what the geographical location, no matter what the language, you have personal experience of it; it is this with which I have trouble with belief, even you are not THAT experienced, no matter how you thinly you spread yourself, and this is also confirmned by the times when your statements of experiience have been called into question and you have had to backpedal hard.
And, from the preceding two responses it would appear that I am not the only one who is not convinced of your omnipotence!
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There seems to be a degree of scepticism abroad, Matt ;)
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...what I am questioning is the fact that, as yet, no matter what the subject, no matter what the context, no matter what the geographical location, no matter what the language, you have personal experience of it; ...
I wish!!
... it is this with which I have trouble with belief, even you are not THAT experienced, no matter how you thinly you spread yourself, and this is also confirmned by the times when your statements of experiience have been called into question and you have had to backpedal hard.
I don't recall having to backpedal on anything. Give additional information or background detail, yes; back-pedal, no.
And, from the preceding two responses it would appear that I am not the only one who is not convinced of your omnipotence!
No one is less convinced of my 'omnipotence' than myself, Matt. I can think of several on this board alone that have far greater depth of understanding of several issues and some who possibly have a broader knowledge than I do.
I just happen to have the good fortune to have lived and worked in the Indian subcontinent for 10 years of my life with people from Australasia, Southern Africa, Malaysia, North America, the subcontinent and Europe; to be married to an antipodean; be part Canadian and part British myself and have a variety of links with organisations (mostly professional) around the world.
The only real problem is that none of these have helped me get a job over the last 6 or 7 years!!
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Which may or may not be true, (I'd rather roll a dice than take your word on anything) you can have contacts with a huge number of people but doesn't mean you are an authority on any topic.
I couldn't agree more, j. It is folk like Matt who seems to want to endow me with authority; all I do is share my experience.
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There seems to be a degree of scepticism abroad, Matt ;)
I believe its called a B.Sc., Shaker :P
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There seems to be a degree of scepticism abroad, Matt ;)
I believe its called a B.Sc., Shaker :P
No, I think the term you're after is BS, see?
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And to keep it real.
Where is Trump's republican support coming from? From 19% of very conservative republicans, from 38% of the evangelical republicans and from 30% of the republicans that attend church at least once a week. So calm down Anchorman, most evangelical republicans DO NOT support Trump. From MSNBC
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There seems to be a degree of scepticism abroad, Matt ;)
I believe its called a B.Sc., Shaker :P
No, I think the term you're after is BS, see?
I think you're being unfair there, Shakes. Hope is very proud of his Bronze Swimming certificate.
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Very good ;D
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And to keep it real.
Where is Trump's republican support coming from? From 19% of very conservative republicans, from 38% of the evangelical republicans and from 30% of the republicans that attend church at least once a week. So calm down Anchorman, most evangelical republicans DO NOT support Trump. From MSNBC
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I AM keeping it 'real', JC.
I fail to understand why ANY Christian with even the most tenuous grasp on Scripture should even contemplate supporting Trump.
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Which may or may not be true, (I'd rather roll a dice than take your word on anything) you can have contacts with a huge number of people but doesn't mean you are an authority on any topic.
I couldn't agree more, j. It is folk like Matt who seems to want to endow me with authority; all I do is share my experience.
Glad we both seem to agree that your testimony is worthless. :)
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Which may or may not be true, (I'd rather roll a dice than take your word on anything) you can have contacts with a huge number of people but doesn't mean you are an authority on any topic.
I couldn't agree more, j. It is folk like Matt who seems to want to endow me with authority; all I do is share my experience.
Glad we both seem to agree that your testimony is worthless. :)
As a teacher of English Hope has an unfortunate habit of dropping Year 7 style clangers in his posts.
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No Anchorman, you are NOT keeping it real. You have started out attacking the MORAL MAJORITY, yup and those this side of the pond know it was shut down 25yrs ago. You take direct aim at evangelicals over here and the truth being that MOST do not support Trump. I would never vote for him. JEB would have my vote.
Well I can say the same sort of thing Anchorman. I don't know how any CHRISTAIN can claim to be such and support abortion and assisted suicide. So now what?
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No Anchorman, you are NOT keeping it real. You have started out attacking the MORAL MAJORITY, yup and those this side of the pond know it was shut down 25yrs ago. You take direct aim at evangelicals over here and the truth being that MOST do not support Trump. I would never vote for him. JEB would have my vote.
Well I can say the same sort of thing Anchorman. I don't know how any CHRISTAIN can claim to be such and support abortion and assisted suicide. So now what?
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I stand corrected.
I'll amend my statement as follows:
I fail to understand why any evangelical could support Trump - or JEB, in the same way in which I fail to understand why they supported 'dubya'.
As to assisted dying, see the 'House of Commons ' thread on which I posted last night.
That might give you a clue why I am in accord with George Carey, former Anglican abp of Canterbury and evangelical thinker, on the topic.
Respond to me there, please.
http://www.religionethics.co.uk/index.php?topic=10847.50
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So explain exactly how your Christianity is not compatible with Jeb. What has he done and stood for in his political career that is a problem with his claim to being a Christian. Then perhaps we will discuss that bed hopping Baptist preacher and his claim to being a Christian. Yes that one, Martin Luther King. And of course we can also discuss a persons claim to being a Christian, who rants with such vile against the Queen and her family. A person taking on the role of a minister of a church who is headed by that Queen. Can we call into question that situation? Yes I think we should.
Now don't you think it is wise not to be spouting off with your, I don't know how a Christian can vote for this one or that one? Very arrogant and judgemental of you. Especially since you have questionable positions yourself. Just saying.
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Then perhaps we will discuss that bed hopping Baptist preacher and his claim to being a Christian. Yes that one, Martin Luther King.
Spoken like any good atheist - Christopher Hitchens, specifically. It's something I've raised a number of times, so it's a surprise to hear someone purporting to be a Christian casting nasturtiums on MLK's Christian credentials. Do you think he was one or not?
And of course we can also discuss a persons claim to being a Christian, who rants with such vile against the Queen and her family. A person taking on the role of a minister of a church who is headed by that Queen. Can we call into question that situation? Yes I think we should.
Except that being a Christian has zero to do with the fact that Christianity is the established state church of this country (I mean England) or that we still inexplicably have a monarchy. Remove the establishment of the C of E (a consummation devoutly to be wished; it's long overdue, all the more so given that Scotland and Wales gave up establishment donkey's years ago) and Christians before would still be Christians after. Likewise, get rid of the monarchy and Christians before would still be Christians after.
So as usual there's no telling what sort of point you think you're making.
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Wot role?
Elizabeth Windsor is not head, supreme governor or even a member of the CofS, JC.
She is classed as an 'adherant' and has no say on any policy decision affecting any congregation within the Kirk.
I have stated on many, many occasions, that I have no objections to Elizabeth Windsor as a person.
I have every objecteion to the unelected, unappointed parasitical job she does. Where is that 'bile'?
Now, whether or not Dr King is or was a Christian is between him and God.
I will not judge.
My point was that there is no reason for an evangelical Christian to vote for the extreme right policies endorsed by the Bush and Trump camps within the financially bloated corpse of American electoral campaigns.
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Then perhaps we will discuss that bed hopping Baptist preacher and his claim to being a Christian. Yes that one, Martin Luther King.
Spoken like any good atheist - Christopher Hitchens, specifically. It's something I've raised a number of times, so it's a surprise to hear someone purporting to be a Christian casting nasturtiums on MLK's Christian credentials. Do you think he was one or not?
And of course we can also discuss a persons claim to being a Christian, who rants with such vile against the Queen and her family. A person taking on the role of a minister of a church who is headed by that Queen. Can we call into question that situation? Yes I think we should.
Except that being a Christian has zero to do with the fact that Christianity is the established state church of this country (I mean England) or that we still inexplicably have a monarchy. Remove the establishment of the C of E (a consummation devoutly to be wished; it's long overdue, all the more so given that Scotland and Wales gave up establishment donkey's years ago) and Christians before would still be Christians after. Likewise, get rid of the monarchy and Christians before would still be Christians after.
So as usual there's no telling what sort of point you think you're making.
So in the Red corner we have Luther King, Priapic Baptist hypocrite and in the Blue corner Hitchens the alcohol and tobacco raddled self destructive apostate.
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Then perhaps we will discuss that bed hopping Baptist preacher and his claim to being a Christian. Yes that one, Martin Luther King.
Spoken like any good atheist - Christopher Hitchens, specifically. It's something I've raised a number of times, so it's a surprise to hear someone purporting to be a Christian casting nasturtiums on MLK's Christian credentials. Do you think he was one or not?
And of course we can also discuss a persons claim to being a Christian, who rants with such vile against the Queen and her family. A person taking on the role of a minister of a church who is headed by that Queen. Can we call into question that situation? Yes I think we should.
Except that being a Christian has zero to do with the fact that Christianity is the established state church of this country (I mean England) or that we still inexplicably have a monarchy. Remove the establishment of the C of E (a consummation devoutly to be wished; it's long overdue, all the more so given that Scotland and Wales gave up establishment donkey's years ago) and Christians before would still be Christians after. Likewise, get rid of the monarchy and Christians before would still be Christians after.
So as usual there's no telling what sort of point you think you're making.
So in the Red corner we have Luther King, Priapic Baptist hypocrite and in the Blue corner Hitchens the alcohol and tobacco raddled self destructive apostate.
And as referee we have Vlad, pompous bombastic bigotted and hate-blinded!
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My point was that there is no reason for an evangelical Christian to vote for the extreme right policies endorsed by the Bush and Trump camps within the financially bloated corpse of American electoral campaigns.
Jim, you could use your 'financially bloated corpse of American electoral campaigns' argument to suggest that there is no reason for an evangelical Christian to vote for anyone in that setting. After all, even the Democrats are hardly left of right of centre (there has never been a candidate for a left of centre party in the Presidential elections and rarely one in a Congress or Senate election)
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And as referee we have Vlad, pompous bombastic bigotted and hate-blinded!
So, rather like yourself, Matt.
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Anchorman,
Why won't you tell me what Jeb has done to deserve you nasty rant against republican Christians? Come on now, step up! What did he do as governor or what has he done in his campaign that is so antichrist in your opinion. Then we will compare that to the political goings on of Bill and Mrs. Clinton. Remember Bill? Monica remembers Bill cause he got some of it on her dress.
http://www.churchofscotland.org.uk/news_and_events/news/recent/queen-recognises-churchs-healing-role
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Anchorman,
Why won't you tell me what Jeb has done to deserve you nasty rant against republican Christians? Come on now, step up! What did he do as governor or what has he done in his campaign that is so antichrist in your opinion. Then we will compare that to the political goings on of Bill and Mrs. Clinton. Remember Bill? Monica remembers Bill cause he got some of it on her dress.
http://www.churchofscotland.org.uk/news_and_events/news/recent/queen-recognises-churchs-healing-role
The Republican Christians, like the awful Sarah Palin, appear to be extremely nasty people, who fortunately wouldn't get very far in a UK election, as they would be viewed as complete nutters by the majority of the population, including many Christians.
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What has Palin done that is nasty floo? I bet it is nothing compared to Thatcher and we know how you Brits voted for her.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_High_Commissioner_to_the_General_Assembly_of_the_Church_of_Scotland#Functions
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Er.....
JC: With the greatest respect; have you ever BEEN to a General Assembly?
The LHC is a ceremonial role and has no function in the deliberations of the commissioners.
I've been to four Assemblies - three as a commissioner - and also been a member of both the Practice and Procedure committee (The outfit which administers the standing orders of Assembly) and the nominatons committee (which appoints the Moderator designate for the following year, and interviews the palaces' recomendation for Lord High Commissioner designate.
Can I refer you to the "Practice and Procedure of the Church of Scotland (Cox) - you can download it if you wish, but given that, in book form it is 1670 pages long, it might take you a while.
The monarch has had no say in the governance of the Kirk since the disasterous 'Wars of the Covenant', when the later Stewart monarchs tried to interfere in the Kirk by imposing Episcopacy. That started what the English mistakenly call the 'English Civil War.'.
Since then, the Kirk has been free of state interference, and, unlike the CofE, is not established, and nor should it be.
When on 'holidy' in Scotland, the monarch attends the local kirk. The present monarch DID try to intervene inthe choice of a minister when the congregation at Crathie, near Balmoral, fell vacant in the early 1970's. THe Kirk Session politely, but firmly, informed her that this was none of her affair, and to keep out of the process.
That was the last time the palace has tried to influence the kirk in any way.
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The Republican Christians, like the awful Sarah Palin, appear to be extremely nasty people, who fortunately wouldn't get very far in a UK election, as they would be viewed as complete nutters by the majority of the population, including many Christians.
Floo, "some Christian American politicians, such as the awful Sarah Palin and the corrupt Rob Blagojeich appear to be extremely nasty people, who fortunately wouldn't get very far in a UK election, as they would be viewed as complete nutters by the majority of the population, including many Christians." I think that this is nearer the truth than your rather jaundiced view above. Furthermore, I suspect that I could find a few non-religious US politicians in the lists of those who have been charged and found guilty of corruption or who have been deemed to be misogynist, racist, etc.
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Remove the establishment of the C of E (a consummation devoutly to be wished; it's long overdue, all the more so given that Scotland and Wales gave up establishment donkey's years ago) and Christians before would still be Christians after. Likewise, get rid of the monarchy and Christians before would still be Christians after.
Just a note in passing, Shaker. As I pointed out to ippy on a number of occasions members of the CofE, including leading members, have asked Parliament to disestablish it several times in my lifetime since establishment has as many disadvantages as advantages when all is considered, but Parliament has never obliged.
If you care to initiate a petition on the 10 Downing Street e-petition page to this effect, I'll gladly sign it.