Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => Politics & Current Affairs => Topic started by: Hope on September 13, 2015, 09:11:48 AM
-
I've been wondering whether the received wisdom that tells us that no party can win power unless it has a centrist viewpoint is possibly becoming less certain nowadays. What with the growth of UKIP, the SNP and now Labour's move (lurch?) to the left is there an indication that perhaps the country's political positions are becoming more extreme.
-
Division, Hope - that's the way thimngs are going.
Labour will have serious issues trying to unite under Corbyn (many of whose policies with which I agree, btw).
He may have serious difficultties in commanding support, not only from his own MPs, but with the party in Scotland - the Scottish leader has expressed her opposition to him ion more than one occasion.
The days of the 'left' uniting are over.
SNP and Labour, while agreeing on many issues, may find the only way of burying the hatchet is by embedding it in each others' back.
Unless Corbyn is replaced by a 'soft' candidate, the Tories will win the next general election with an increased majority.
This will only fuel renewed campaigns for a second Scottish referendum, as, yet again Scots voted in one direction and were lumbered with a government they detest.
-
I've been wondering whether the received wisdom that tells us that no party can win power unless it has a centrist viewpoint is possibly becoming less certain nowadays. What with the growth of UKIP, the SNP and now Labour's move (lurch?) to the left is there an indication that perhaps the country's political positions are becoming more extreme.
Centrist for whom? At the last election the centre-ground was occupied by the Lib Dems, look how that went.
Whilst Labour spent the last election attempting to slide as close to the Tory agenda as they could whilst still remaining a fragment to their left, they abandoned huge swathes of their traditional support.
The real issue, though, is that this was exacerbated by the non-economic arguments - Tory and Labour authoritarianism vs nationalist sentiment.
How Corbyn handles the Scottish independence movement will be the key - if he satisfies enough Scots that he values Scotland then he may drag enough voters away from the SNP to revitalise Scottish Labour, which will be a huge boost. If not, given the common ground they have, it's possible that a formal alliance might be available with the SNP - that would most likely spell the end of the Union, as the SNP would demand another referendum (Sturgeon's already talking about the triggers she's putting into the manifesto for the next Scottish Parliamentary elections next year).
O.
-
Extremists are often prone to divisiveness but they do seem to wake up a sleepy electorate. Perhaps it will encourage a new centre party to evolve from all other parties.
-
For what it's worth, the Tories have also somehow managed to politically activate their constituency.
Who would have thought there were hundreds of thousands of conservatives willing to falsely skew opinion polls and received political wisdom prior to the election and maliciously skew the Labour leadership contest?
We kid ourselves if we think the electorate would be anywhere near poised to vote labour at the next general election if only
Jeremy Corbyn had not been voted in.
-
Who would have thought there were hundreds of thousands of conservatives willing to falsely skew opinion polls and received political wisdom prior to the election and maliciously skew the Labour leadership contest?
Do you have any evidence that this has occurred, Vlad? After all, we know that at least one People's Assembly supporter tried to join the Labour Party in order to vote in this leadership election.
-
Who would have thought there were hundreds of thousands of conservatives willing to falsely skew opinion polls and received political wisdom prior to the election and maliciously skew the Labour leadership contest?
Do you have any evidence that this has occurred, Vlad? After all, we know that at least one People's Assembly supporter tried to join the Labour Party in order to vote in this leadership election.
Are you trying to say that Conservative voters taking part in opinion poll surveys did not give false information? How else could the polls have been so wrong in favour of the conservative party?
Are you trying also to say that dishonest conservatives didn't use their £3 vote for Jeremy Corbyn?
-
It is the same old story. The ruling class have lost touch with the peoples' lives. They have become the modern aristocrats who say, "Let them eat cake." - "Let them eat austerity."
Haven't people found it profoundly odd that the Labour elites didn't know what their grass root lot felt and thought? That they have been hit blindside by this and had no idea of this was coming, in their cosy Labour Party bubble.
Basically, the Neo-Liberal project has failed and is in its last gasps.
-
Division, Hope - that's the way thimngs are going.
Labour will have serious issues trying to unite under Corbyn (many of whose policies with which I agree, btw).
He may have serious difficultties in commanding support, not only from his own MPs, but with the party in Scotland - the Scottish leader has expressed her opposition to him ion more than one occasion.
The days of the 'left' uniting are over.
SNP and Labour, while agreeing on many issues, may find the only way of burying the hatchet is by embedding it in each others' back.
Unless Corbyn is replaced by a 'soft' candidate, the Tories will win the next general election with an increased majority.
This will only fuel renewed campaigns for a second Scottish referendum, as, yet again Scots voted in one direction and were lumbered with a government they detest.
What effect will Corbyn have on the votes of the SNP? Will many return to Labour in May?
-
Centrist for whom? At the last election the centre-ground was occupied by the Lib Dems, look how that went.
I would disagree, O. I would have placed the Lib-Dems to the left of Labour back in May, whilst to seemed to me that people felt that if we were to have a centre right Government we might as well have a right of centre party in charge of it.
-
Are you trying to say that Conservative voters taking part in opinion poll surveys did not give false information? How else could the polls have been so wrong in favour of the conservative party?
That's what I'm asking, Vlad. Do you have any evidence that they did? If you do, then I think that you know more than 95% of the population.
Are you trying also to say that dishonest conservatives didn't use their £3 vote for Jeremy Corbyn?
No, I'm saying that - going by the make up of the 3K whose applications were turned down - the 'dishonest' people (though just what they did that was dishonest is open to debate) seem to have come from all parts of the political spectrum.
-
This will only fuel renewed campaigns for a second Scottish referendum, as, yet again Scots voted in one direction and were lumbered with a government they detest.
Should Scotland vote to leave the EU and the rUK vote to remain in it, will you still push for independence? ;) What about if the SNP fail to register a majority of the seats in next year's devolved election?
-
I think the Lib Dems are left of centre. Only a bit - they are my default party when no independents are around now I've gone off the Geeens for appearing to endorse various kinds of anti-Semitic right-on lazy thinking.
-
Centrist for whom? At the last election the centre-ground was occupied by the Lib Dems, look how that went.
I would disagree, O. I would have placed the Lib-Dems to the left of Labour back in May, whilst to seemed to me that people felt that if we were to have a centre right Government we might as well have a right of centre party in charge of it.
I wouldn't say the Lib dems were left of labour.
The plain fact is that England has gone right wing.
-
The plain fact is that England has gone right wing.
Oh, I hadn't realised that UKIP won the last election. The Tories and Labour (pre-election at least) were right of centre and left of centre respectively. Furthermore, what with Scotland and Wales having been predominantly Labour strongholds till recently, England has long been more right-wing overall.
-
The plain fact is that England has gone right wing.
Oh, I hadn't realised that UKIP won the last election. The Tories and Labour (pre-election at least) were right of centre and left of centre respectively. Furthermore, what with Scotland and Wales having been predominantly Labour strongholds till recently, England has long been more right-wing overall.
Oh come on. Dismantling of public services, vilification of public servants is not right wing?
Let's just see what most English voters want......Public servants working far more hours for less money with no ability to strike.
What is 'centre' about that?
-
Let's just see what most English voters want......Public servants working far more hours for less money with no ability to strike.
What is 'centre' about that?
Look at the UK map on this page, Vlad - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_general_election,_2015
It would seem that the majority of English voters felt that the Tories could be trusted with the NHS, the economy, etc. more than Labour.
Note that, at no stage have I said that I support the Tories - in fact I voted for a party considerably to the left of Labour as it was in May and probably still to the left of Labour as it will be under Mr Corbyn.
I have voted for this same party since 2000, except on the 2 occasions they have not had a candidate in our constituency. On these occasions, I voted for Plaid Cymru (x1) and the Lib Dems (x1).
-
It would seem that the majority of English voters felt that the Tories could be trusted with the NHS, the economy, etc. more than Labour.
The majority of English voters (49%) voted against the Tories.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election/2015/results/england
-
The majority of English voters (49%) voted against the Tories.
My apologies, Jeremy, you are correct. I got my stats mixed up. What I meant to say was that on a constituency by constituency basis, more English voters voted for the Tories, otherwise they wouldn't have gained 319 of the 533 English seats available.
-
Division, Hope - that's the way thimngs are going.
Labour will have serious issues trying to unite under Corbyn (many of whose policies with which I agree, btw).
He may have serious difficultties in commanding support, not only from his own MPs, but with the party in Scotland - the Scottish leader has expressed her opposition to him ion more than one occasion.
The days of the 'left' uniting are over.
SNP and Labour, while agreeing on many issues, may find the only way of burying the hatchet is by embedding it in each others' back.
Unless Corbyn is replaced by a 'soft' candidate, the Tories will win the next general election with an increased majority.
This will only fuel renewed campaigns for a second Scottish referendum, as, yet again Scots voted in one direction and were lumbered with a government they detest.
What effect will Corbyn have on the votes of the SNP? Will many return to Labour in May?
-
Possibly, yes.
However, the leader up here is one Keiza Dugdale....probably unknown in England (and to most of Scotland as well)
She has already put on record her opposition to many Corbyn policies, and, since she herself has only just been elected (the eighth Scottish Labour leader since devolution) she can't afford to be seen in a u-turn after standing on her election promises.
Scottish Labour is in a torment - return to the 'old' Corbynite policies and ditch nearly all the policies which elected their new leader last month, or change them all in a flash and lose what credibility they may still have.
-
Centrist for whom? At the last election the centre-ground was occupied by the Lib Dems, look how that went.
I would disagree, O. I would have placed the Lib-Dems to the left of Labour back in May, whilst to seemed to me that people felt that if we were to have a centre right Government we might as well have a right of centre party in charge of it.
I'd agree, back in May they were. With Jeremy Corbyn laying the framework for Labour I think it's fairly clear that Labour will return to the left of centre, leaving the Lib Dems in the centre.
O.
-
Jim, a quick 'what if ...?'.
If (and I suspect it'll be a big 'if') Corbyn's election manages to draw back enough Scottish Labour voters for Labour to win the Holyrood election next autumn, how do you see the political landscape of Scotland developing, since the 58 SNP MPs would no longer have the 'support' of Holyrood?
-
Jim, a quick 'what if ...?'.
If (and I suspect it'll be a big 'if') Corbyn's election manages to draw back enough Scottish Labour voters for Labour to win the Holyrood election next autumn, how do you see the political landscape of Scotland developing, since the 58 SNP MPs would no longer have the 'support' of Holyrood?
The thing is in Holyrood terms they haven't been 'Scottish Labour' since 2003. The idea that there are hordes of Holyrood voters to be regarded as Labour voters not voting for them is not clear at all and the presumption that there is is now gradually being realised by many in Scottish Labour to be the problem.
That said if the SNP were to lose not just their majority but the overall largest party, it wouldn't in a sense have much initial affect on the 56 MPs they have who would have to tone down some of the rhetoric but that's a bout all. In addition the possibility of pursuing in conjuction with some part of the Labour Party a campaign against Trident renewal could well become a focus.
The question of any further referndum is dependent on the SNP maintaining a majority in Holyrood (or close to a majority if there is a significant increase in the Green MSPs), not the MPs. On current polls, the SNP are predicted to increase their majority and the Greens could at least double. The Lib Dems look like possibly losing 1 seat and Labour currently may end up with only a couple more than the Tories, who may well gain 3 or 4 seats.
There hasn't been any noticeable Corbyn effect as yet and the previous statements of Kezia Dugdale may well cause problems going forward. Since in all likelihood Labour will lose the next WM election by some distance, even were they to see a revival in Scotland, any hypothetical 'resurgence' in next years Holyrood elections could be reversed hugely once again the following time around. (Dependent on the date of the Holyrood election which is still currently unknown due the guddle of 4 year parliaments at Holyrood and 5 year ones at WM.)
Add in to that a possible BREXIT, and the tea leaves cannae take it, Captain!
-
Add in to that a possible BREXIT, and the tea leaves cannae take it, Captain!
Thanks for that, NS. I might even print it out as a succinct guide to Scottish politics. With no disrespect to Jim or some others' passion - I always find your posts on the Scottish issue very interesting.
I think I may have posed this 'what if?' before, but if the final EU referendum showed a lower level of support for the EU in Scotland than in the rest of the UK, would that be an SNP trigger for a new independence referendum? I've always assumed that Salmond and Sturgeon have always thought that any differential would be the other way round.
-
Jim, a quick 'what if ...?'.
If (and I suspect it'll be a big 'if') Corbyn's election manages to draw back enough Scottish Labour voters for Labour to win the Holyrood election next autumn, how do you see the political landscape of Scotland developing, since the 58 SNP MPs would no longer have the 'support' of Holyrood?
-
The first thing you need to realise is that Johann Lamont, the last Scottish Labour leader but one, left the leadership with a poison chalice - she compared her own party to a 'Scottish branch office'.
That has dooged her sucessors, Jim Murphy, and, now, Keizai Dugdale, niether of whom show any signs of decalaring any autonomy from London Labour.
That's a millstone round the Scottish leadership's collective necks.
Combine that with the 'Brownite' faction within the Scottish Labour parliamentary faction, and they will have a very hard time ajusting to 'Corbynism'....and if they DO change their policies, they simply offer more ammo for the other left-leaning parties here to hit them with.
They are caught between a rock and a hard place.
I've no doubt that Scottish Labour WILL revive at some point in the future, but such a revival will be slow in coming - too slow to regain any real power at the Hollyrood elections next year.
An excellent result for Labour in Scotland will be to retain any constituency seats at all - they will probably have to rely on the 'list' seats to have any presence in parliament, with the resultant diminution in moral authority that may bring.
-
Add in to that a possible BREXIT, and the tea leaves cannae take it, Captain!
Thanks for that, NS. I might even print it out as a succinct guide to Scottish politics. With no disrespect to Jim or some others' passion - I always find your posts on the Scottish issue very interesting.
I think I may have posed this 'what if?' before, but if the final EU referendum showed a lower level of support for the EU in Scotland than in the rest of the UK, would that be an SNP trigger for a new independence referendum? I've always assumed that Salmond and Sturgeon have always thought that any differential would be the other way round.
I think that the only trigger is if it is on one side or another i.e. it has to be Scotland voting Stay in and UK voting Out or vice versa. It cannot be both sides voting the same way even were it to be say UK voting 55% to leave and Scotland only voting 51% to leave.
If Scotland were to vote to leave and UK to stay in then I suspect you would hear very little from the SNP about it triggering another referendum BUT you might well hear a push from some other parts of the independence movement - such as some parts of the Greens and some of the Socialist parties. They might even attract a very few MSPs and councillors from the SNP to argue for it. There may be some in the Tories who would also add their voice but anti EU take in the Tories in Scotland is very low. It could prompt a sort of SIP wing of UKIP but I doubt it would be of any significance.
The only real game in town for a referendum is a UK out, Scotland In vote. I suspect that to really trigger it there needs to be more than a marginal difference in voting as well - so if UK voted out by 50.5% and Scotland In by a similar number, I think there would be so many problems across all parties that the referedum would be delayed while all parties had a bit of a dizzy spell. Note I think that would apply if there is a marginal vote either way and it is consistent across the UK. If it is 50.2 vs 49.8 in or out. we will be in for internecine strife in almost all parties.
-
A vote for EU out is a proxy vote for Scotland out of the union. I'm up for that!
-
A vote for EU out is a proxy vote for Scotland out of the union. I'm up for that!
No, a vote for being out of the EU is precisely that - nothing else
-
A vote for EU out is a proxy vote for Scotland out of the union. I'm up for that!
No, a vote for being out of the EU is precisely that - nothing else
For some. In exactly the same way that a vote for the Labour wasn't actually a vote for Scottish Nationalism during the last general election, except in all the ways that it might well have been...
O.
-
For some. In exactly the same way that a vote for the Labour wasn't actually a vote for Scottish Nationalism during the last general election, except in all the ways that it might well have been...
O.
It might be what some think but they would be wrong. In order for it to have the effect that Scotland might leave the Union, the UK out would have to win and Scotland would have to vote by a reasonable margin to stay in. In which case the 1st thing that would happen would be the UK leaving the EU. Any after effect in terms of Scotland is reliant on others votes and would be subsequent to achieving the UK out.
-
A vote for EU out is a proxy vote for Scotland out of the union. I'm up for that!
No, a vote for being out of the EU is precisely that - nothing else
I disagree.
-
A vote for EU out is a proxy vote for Scotland out of the union. I'm up for that!
No, a vote for being out of the EU is precisely that - nothing else
I disagree.
You may well do, I have explained why I think you are wrong. If you want to progress the conversation I suggest rather than merely repeating your position you at least attempt an argument.
-
Division, Hope - that's the way thimngs are going.
Labour will have serious issues trying to unite under Corbyn (many of whose policies with which I agree, btw).
He may have serious difficultties in commanding support, not only from his own MPs, but with the party in Scotland - the Scottish leader has expressed her opposition to him ion more than one occasion.
The days of the 'left' uniting are over.
SNP and Labour, while agreeing on many issues, may find the only way of burying the hatchet is by embedding it in each others' back.
Unless Corbyn is replaced by a 'soft' candidate, the Tories will win the next general election with an increased majority.
This will only fuel renewed campaigns for a second Scottish referendum, as, yet again Scots voted in one direction and were lumbered with a government they detest.
What effect will Corbyn have on the votes of the SNP? Will many return to Labour in May?
-
Possibly, yes.
However, the leader up here is one Keiza Dugdale....probably unknown in England (and to most of Scotland as well)
She has already put on record her opposition to many Corbyn policies, and, since she herself has only just been elected (the eighth Scottish Labour leader since devolution) she can't afford to be seen in a u-turn after standing on her election promises.
Scottish Labour is in a torment - return to the 'old' Corbynite policies and ditch nearly all the policies which elected their new leader last month, or change them all in a flash and lose what credibility they may still have.
Looks like Scottish Labour don't know if they are coming or going. Actually now this seems to be a possibility for Westminster Labour too.
-
Add in to that a possible BREXIT, and the tea leaves cannae take it, Captain!
Thanks for that, NS. I might even print it out as a succinct guide to Scottish politics. With no disrespect to Jim or some others' passion - I always find your posts on the Scottish issue very interesting.
I think I may have posed this 'what if?' before, but if the final EU referendum showed a lower level of support for the EU in Scotland than in the rest of the UK, would that be an SNP trigger for a new independence referendum? I've always assumed that Salmond and Sturgeon have always thought that any differential would be the other way round.
For the last referendum, didn't the SNP have to get permission for it from the UK government? If so, how can they go around demanding or declaring that they are going to set a new date for one at some point in the future?
-
They can't not will they demand a binding one but a UK govt needs a reason to refuse it as well. If the SNP were to tie it to a different result on the EU referendum, given that and the 56 MPs it will be quite difficult for a UK govt to refuse. Especially one in the midst of quite possibly internal splits.
They can declare that they are holding a referendum at any time, it just isn't necessarily binding.
-
It is the same old story. The ruling class have lost touch with the peoples' lives. They have become the modern aristocrats who say, "Let them eat cake." - "Let them eat austerity."
Haven't people found it profoundly odd that the Labour elites didn't know what their grass root lot felt and thought? That they have been hit blindside by this and had no idea of this was coming, in their cosy Labour Party bubble.
Basically, the Neo-Liberal project has failed and is in its last gasps.
I'm not sure about that, but it was the vote for Liz Kendall which had me cheering - I think it was 4% roughly. I think she was the heir apparent to Blairism.
Blairism has failed, and these are its funeral rites.
But I think neo-liberalism continues in the Tories, and I suppose the Lib Dems, not sure about that. One of my great hopes is that Corbyn will actually open up a debate about it, as nobody in Labour has wanted to do this, and instead, have sort of waved play on. I mean, they have taken it for granted, so that starving the poor has come to seem normal politics.
-
Jim, a quick 'what if ...?'.
If (and I suspect it'll be a big 'if') Corbyn's election manages to draw back enough Scottish Labour voters for Labour to win the Holyrood election next autumn, how do you see the political landscape of Scotland developing, since the 58 SNP MPs would no longer have the 'support' of Holyrood?
-
The first thing you need to realise is that Johann Lamont, the last Scottish Labour leader but one, left the leadership with a poison chalice - she compared her own party to a 'Scottish branch office'.
That has dooged her sucessors, Jim Murphy, and, now, Keizai Dugdale, niether of whom show any signs of decalaring any autonomy from London Labour.
That's a millstone round the Scottish leadership's collective necks.
Combine that with the 'Brownite' faction within the Scottish Labour parliamentary faction, and they will have a very hard time ajusting to 'Corbynism'....and if they DO change their policies, they simply offer more ammo for the other left-leaning parties here to hit them with.
They are caught between a rock and a hard place.
I've no doubt that Scottish Labour WILL revive at some point in the future, but such a revival will be slow in coming - too slow to regain any real power at the Hollyrood elections next year.
An excellent result for Labour in Scotland will be to retain any constituency seats at all - they will probably have to rely on the 'list' seats to have any presence in parliament, with the resultant diminution in moral authority that may bring.
The impression I've got is that many of the Scottish voters don't trust or like Westminster so even if Corbyn appeals to them they will think things will revert back to the usual at some point so they might as well vote SNP, or in that vane, relying on the extra powers Scotland will or should get...?
-
That's the $10,000 question:
The Tories are caught in a trap....they are trying to water down the provisos in the Smith Commission in the new Scotland Bill - wheras SNP are claiming that they have the electoral mandate to try for powers above and BEYOND Smith.
Gordon Brown hamstrung Labour this time last year with an infamous 'vow' to seek the greatest possible powers....Scottish Labour has desperately tried to backtrack on Brown's 'vow' while still trying to be 'Scottish' enough for their core voters.
http://www.scotsman.com/news/uk/devolution-will-be-delivered-vows-gordon-brown-1-3547823
-
It is the same old story. The ruling class have lost touch with the peoples' lives. They have become the modern aristocrats who say, "Let them eat cake." - "Let them eat austerity."
Haven't people found it profoundly odd that the Labour elites didn't know what their grass root lot felt and thought? That they have been hit blindside by this and had no idea of this was coming, in their cosy Labour Party bubble.
Basically, the Neo-Liberal project has failed and is in its last gasps.
I'm not sure about that, but it was the vote for Liz Kendall which had me cheering - I think it was 4% roughly. I think she was the heir apparent to Blairism.
Blairism has failed, and these are its funeral rites.
But I think neo-liberalism continues in the Tories, and I suppose the Lib Dems, not sure about that. One of my great hopes is that Corbyn will actually open up a debate about it, as nobody in Labour has wanted to do this, and instead, have sort of waved play on. I mean, they have taken it for granted, so that starving the poor has come to seem normal politics.
Neo-Liberalism is about the politicisation of economics and this was sold to the politicians by the bankers or financial institutions. So they, the politicians, don't really understand or know about it as such and keep up the tricks like some well trained dogs. What it amounts to is allowing the bankers to gamble on our money (note: the central banks are in on this game and so are basically stabbing us in the back). It is on its last gasps because the debts (derivatives, bond market etc) are so huge that no amount of QE can help it and all this money is flooding into the economy as housing bubbles etc because there are no safe places in the financial markets anymore - the usual price indicators that guide investments have all been rigged, like Libor, Forex, the commodities market so telling buyers nothing.
The Tories come across like boys trying to play a man's game; in this case their mummy's Maggie game!!! Look at that stupid paper on changing strike rules, it is so amateurish.
-
It is the same old story. The ruling class have lost touch with the peoples' lives. They have become the modern aristocrats who say, "Let them eat cake." - "Let them eat austerity."
Haven't people found it profoundly odd that the Labour elites didn't know what their grass root lot felt and thought? That they have been hit blindside by this and had no idea of this was coming, in their cosy Labour Party bubble.
Basically, the Neo-Liberal project has failed and is in its last gasps.
I'm not sure about that, but it was the vote for Liz Kendall which had me cheering - I think it was 4% roughly. I think she was the heir apparent to Blairism.
Blairism has failed, and these are its funeral rites.
But I think neo-liberalism continues in the Tories, and I suppose the Lib Dems, not sure about that. One of my great hopes is that Corbyn will actually open up a debate about it, as nobody in Labour has wanted to do this, and instead, have sort of waved play on. I mean, they have taken it for granted, so that starving the poor has come to seem normal politics.
Liberalism is not an absolute term what do you mean by neo-liberalism?
Do you want all industries back in public hands or just those that that were, energy, travel (train and bus), car building, phones?
-
It is the same old story. The ruling class have lost touch with the peoples' lives. They have become the modern aristocrats who say, "Let them eat cake." - "Let them eat austerity."
Haven't people found it profoundly odd that the Labour elites didn't know what their grass root lot felt and thought? That they have been hit blindside by this and had no idea of this was coming, in their cosy Labour Party bubble.
Basically, the Neo-Liberal project has failed and is in its last gasps.
I'm not sure about that, but it was the vote for Liz Kendall which had me cheering - I think it was 4% roughly. I think she was the heir apparent to Blairism.
Blairism has failed, and these are its funeral rites.
But I think neo-liberalism continues in the Tories, and I suppose the Lib Dems, not sure about that. One of my great hopes is that Corbyn will actually open up a debate about it, as nobody in Labour has wanted to do this, and instead, have sort of waved play on. I mean, they have taken it for granted, so that starving the poor has come to seem normal politics.
Liberalism is not an absolute term what do you mean by neo-liberalism?
Do you want all industries back in public hands or just those that that were, energy, travel (train and bus), car building, phones?
That;s a strange reaction from the Conservatives. An unelectable left wing labour and the tories go Francoist.
-
But I think neo-liberalism continues in the Tories, and I suppose the Lib Dems, not sure about that. One of my great hopes is that Corbyn will actually open up a debate about it, as nobody in Labour has wanted to do this, and instead, have sort of waved play on. I mean, they have taken it for granted, so that starving the poor has come to seem normal politics.
Just a quick thought, neo-liberalism came to the fore in the 1960s. Under whose auspices?
Can a party that is based on support for the owners and business (though not automatically for the wealthy - there are some businesses that survive but without raking in the money) even be said to be a neo-liberal party or that neo-liberalism 'continues' in it?
-
It is the same old story. The ruling class have lost touch with the peoples' lives. They have become the modern aristocrats who say, "Let them eat cake." - "Let them eat austerity."
Haven't people found it profoundly odd that the Labour elites didn't know what their grass root lot felt and thought? That they have been hit blindside by this and had no idea of this was coming, in their cosy Labour Party bubble.
Basically, the Neo-Liberal project has failed and is in its last gasps.
I'm not sure about that, but it was the vote for Liz Kendall which had me cheering - I think it was 4% roughly. I think she was the heir apparent to Blairism.
Blairism has failed, and these are its funeral rites.
But I think neo-liberalism continues in the Tories, and I suppose the Lib Dems, not sure about that. One of my great hopes is that Corbyn will actually open up a debate about it, as nobody in Labour has wanted to do this, and instead, have sort of waved play on. I mean, they have taken it for granted, so that starving the poor has come to seem normal politics.
Liberalism is not an absolute term what do you mean by neo-liberalism?
Do you want all industries back in public hands or just those that that were, energy, travel (train and bus), car building, phones?
That;s a strange reaction from the Conservatives. An unelectable left wing labour and the tories go Francoist.
I'm not a conservative but a member of the LibDems.
-
interesting article from Nick Cohen. While not in agreement with him on all of it, I think it underlines that Labour may well be completely screwed now. I also think that what may split the party is Israel. The view by groupings in the party that the other lit are Zionists/antisemitic dependent on their own position has been bubbling for a while but is becoming ever more the defining policy.
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2015/09/will-labour-move-corbyn/
-
Which will appear myopic and self-indulgent to the vast majority of the electorate.
-
interesting article from Nick Cohen. While not in agreement with him on all of it, I think it underlines that Labour may well be completely screwed now. I also think that what may split the party is Israel. The view by groupings in the party that the other lit are Zionists/antisemitic dependent on their own position has been bubbling for a while but is becoming ever more the defining policy.
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2015/09/will-labour-move-corbyn/
I think Labour had got close to extinction under the Blairites. You could see that in the leadership contest - for example, Yvette Cooper seemed bereft of ideas, Burnham was trying to work out what he should think. Well, I guess if people really want Tory-lite, then we end up with two right-wing parties, as in the US.
The shift under Corbyn was inevitable in that sense, I mean, that a lot of people were disheartened by the Blairites, and recognized something else in Corbyn. My hope is that his team can open up a wide debate about social democracy, neo-liberalism, Keynesian economics and so on. I guess this stuff is pretty uninteresting to most people, yet Labour is doomed otherwise to become Tory Story 2.
-
interesting article from Nick Cohen. While not in agreement with him on all of it, I think it underlines that Labour may well be completely screwed now. I also think that what may split the party is Israel. The view by groupings in the party that the other lit are Zionists/antisemitic dependent on their own position has been bubbling for a while but is becoming ever more the defining policy.
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2015/09/will-labour-move-corbyn/
It seems to me they are close to being screwed. I don't think Corbyn can find some common ground because he seems so surprised about how life is conducted in the 21st century he comes a cross to me as a Mr Bean type.
He could end up as a "Being There" character...?
-
It occurs to me its a pity this move to the left has come too late for Ken Livingstone.
-
It occurs to me its a pity this move to the left has come too late for Ken Livingstone.
Actually, Corbyn is in a similar place as Livingstone was in the sense of the abuse of calling him the loony left and all that. People said at the time Livingstone wouldn't last long with his far left ideas etc., but he did. Whether Corbyn can make it work as Labour leader is probably a bigger ask.
-
interesting article from Nick Cohen. While not in agreement with him on all of it, I think it underlines that Labour may well be completely screwed now. I also think that what may split the party is Israel. The view by groupings in the party that the other lit are Zionists/antisemitic dependent on their own position has been bubbling for a while but is becoming ever more the defining policy.
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2015/09/will-labour-move-corbyn/
It seems to me they are close to being screwed. I don't think Corbyn can find some common ground because he seems so surprised about how life is conducted in the 21st century he comes a cross to me as a Mr Bean type.
He could end up as a "Being There" character...?
I don't think he's surprised, I think he's disappointed. Whilst this move leftwards will almost certainly lose the Labour party some supporters, I suspect it has the potential to (re)gain them many more - previous Labour voters who defected to SNP, Plaid Cymru and the Greens as they abandoned any pretense of left wing economics, as well as previously unengaged voters who didn't see the smaller or nationalist parties but sought a working-man's supporter they could believe in.
At the same time, those centrists that Labour sheds could turn towards, depending on their authoritarian/libertarian bent, UKIP or the Lib Dems - that potential boost for UKIP is probably the most worrying thing about all of this.
O.
-
Peston of the Beeb has heard rumours of Labour defectors heading across the floor to their soulmate George Osborne. At the least expect some resignations and by-elections.
Labour never understood the appeal of UKIP in its heartlands and I agree that it will gain further support now Corbyn's is in charge.
-
I don't think anybody knows. Corbyn's supporters are pointing to the large membership increase since the leadership contest started, and opponents are arguing that he will alienate various groups of people. I guess that the polls will be watched for a while, to see which way it's going. Corbyn is having a tough time with the media, but again, I don't know how much that will count. If Labour start to sink badly in the polls, then his time will be short, I would think, although I'm not sure that Labour led by anybody else will inspire anybody. Of course, Keir Starmer lurks in the wings, but he is too new, I would think.
If Blairites cross to the Tories, that is rather giving the game away!
-
I don't think anybody knows. Corbyn's supporters are pointing to the large membership increase since the leadership contest started
Thirty thousand and rising, so I've heard at any rate.
-
The obvious message is, pick your battles. If Corbyn attacks on the issue of austerity, I think he will get support. All the flim-flam about anthems and clothes should be ignored really. Judging from PMQs, he knows this, and he is not going to go off on some diatribe about monarchy and theism. If he did, I would consider that completely barmy, but I am pretty sure that he won't.
-
interesting article from Nick Cohen. While not in agreement with him on all of it, I think it underlines that Labour may well be completely screwed now. I also think that what may split the party is Israel. The view by groupings in the party that the other lit are Zionists/antisemitic dependent on their own position has been bubbling for a while but is becoming ever more the defining policy.
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2015/09/will-labour-move-corbyn/
It seems to me they are close to being screwed. I don't think Corbyn can find some common ground because he seems so surprised about how life is conducted in the 21st century he comes a cross to me as a Mr Bean type.
He could end up as a "Being There" character...?
I don't think he's surprised, I think he's disappointed. Whilst this move leftwards will almost certainly lose the Labour party some supporters, I suspect it has the potential to (re)gain them many more - previous Labour voters who defected to SNP, Plaid Cymru and the Greens as they abandoned any pretense of left wing economics, as well as previously unengaged voters who didn't see the smaller or nationalist parties but sought a working-man's supporter they could believe in.
At the same time, those centrists that Labour sheds could turn towards, depending on their authoritarian/libertarian bent, UKIP or the Lib Dems - that potential boost for UKIP is probably the most worrying thing about all of this.
O.
The problem Labour has isn't what could happen outside of them i.e. voters coming and going, but what this will do to them internally. Many MPs expect Corbyn to fail and will sit on the side-lines and wait. This quiet temporary split will be fuel for those wanting to pull Labour apart. But if these usual Labour lot get to take the reins again the grassroots members wont be too happy. This will probably mean years of strife for Labour.
I gather that many ex-Scottish Labour voters have finished with Labour as they see no way that Labour could ever represent them again, which the SNP are doing. This could be true for the others you mention. Labour has also lost its boots on the ground in Scotland, as they only have one seat.
-
The problem Labour has isn't what could happen outside of them i.e. voters coming and going, but what this will do to them internally. Many MPs expect Corbyn to fail and will sit on the side-lines and wait. This quiet temporary split will be fuel for those wanting to pull Labour apart. But if these usual Labour lot get to take the reins again the grassroots members wont be too happy. This will probably mean years of strife for Labour.
I gather that many ex-Scottish Labour voters have finished with Labour as they see no way that Labour could ever represent them again, which the SNP are doing. This could be true for the others you mention. Labour has also lost its boots on the ground in Scotland, as they only have one seat.
I think it depends on the neverendum, if SNP keep that on the agenda they are on safe ground as Labour are now more left than the SNP which they are (apart from Trident). You can see this is the tactic, i.e. keep talking up independence.
Corbyn is a republican the best bet for Labour would to stop being unionist party but become neutral on that issue. In fact its not that much of a change for them:-
http://www.u.tv/News/2015/09/15/Labour-view-of-united-Ireland-legitimate---SoS-44986
It would be like castrating the SNP. :)
-
I don't think anybody knows. Corbyn's supporters are pointing to the large membership increase since the leadership contest started
Thirty thousand and rising, so I've heard at any rate.
I suspect quite a few are ex-members rejoining. I know a number in that group.
But you always get figures about people joining, but there will also be people leaving too. Perhaps not 'ripping up their membership cards' but not renewing when the time comes. There was a big group who joined in the mid 90s who wouldn't have joined in the mid 80s. A lot of these people will be feeling that the party they joined has left them, so to speak.
-
Jeremy Corbyn is to the left of the SNP, it remains to be seen if Labour are. Tom Watson is in favour of Trident renewal. It is as yet unclear what policies will be followed.
-
'Avalanche' of Labour MPs could turn to Lib Dems.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34302365
Would Vince have said this if there had been no contact?
-
'Avalanche' of Labour MPs could turn to Lib Dems.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34302365
Would Vince have said this if there had been no contact?
Since there will be by elections many seats will end up Conservative not Lib Dem.
-
'Avalanche' of Labour MPs could turn to Lib Dems.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34302365
Would Vince have said this if there had been no contact?
Were there any young women about?
http://www.economist.com/blogs/bagehot/2010/12/vince_cable
-
'Avalanche' of Labour MPs could turn to Lib Dems.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34302365
Would Vince have said this if there had been no contact?
Were there any young women about?
http://www.economist.com/blogs/bagehot/2010/12/vince_cable
Strawboy, what have young women to do with Labour MP's defecting?
-
'Avalanche' of Labour MPs could turn to Lib Dems.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34302365
Would Vince have said this if there had been no contact?
Were there any young women about?
http://www.economist.com/blogs/bagehot/2010/12/vince_cable
Strawboy, what have young women to do with Labour MP's defecting?
What are you on about? 'Strawboy'. You asked if Cable might say something that wasn't justified by facts, I pointed out an occasion where he talked arrant pish.
-
'Avalanche' of Labour MPs could turn to Lib Dems.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34302365
Would Vince have said this if there had been no contact?
Were there any young women about?
http://www.economist.com/blogs/bagehot/2010/12/vince_cable
Strawboy, what have young women to do with Labour MP's defecting?
What are you on about? 'Strawboy'. You asked if Cable might say something that wasn't justified by facts, I pointed out an occasion where he talked arrant pish.
I thought you were Vlad apologies.
-
'Avalanche' of Labour MPs could turn to Lib Dems.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34302365
Would Vince have said this if there had been no contact?
I very much doubt it. They are more likely to site tight and wait for Corbyn to fizzle away and then take the front bench again. The LibDems are going nowhere and would be a stupid choice for a career move.
-
The problem Labour has isn't what could happen outside of them i.e. voters coming and going, but what this will do to them internally. Many MPs expect Corbyn to fail and will sit on the side-lines and wait. This quiet temporary split will be fuel for those wanting to pull Labour apart. But if these usual Labour lot get to take the reins again the grassroots members wont be too happy. This will probably mean years of strife for Labour.
I gather that many ex-Scottish Labour voters have finished with Labour as they see no way that Labour could ever represent them again, which the SNP are doing. This could be true for the others you mention. Labour has also lost its boots on the ground in Scotland, as they only have one seat.
I think it depends on the neverendum, if SNP keep that on the agenda they are on safe ground as Labour are now more left than the SNP which they are (apart from Trident). You can see this is the tactic, i.e. keep talking up independence.
Corbyn is a republican the best bet for Labour would to stop being unionist party but become neutral on that issue. In fact its not that much of a change for them:-
http://www.u.tv/News/2015/09/15/Labour-view-of-united-Ireland-legitimate---SoS-44986
It would be like castrating the SNP. :)
I think you're right. Many of the No voter Scots feel that the vow and other promises have been watered down and feelings are running high.
-
I think you're right. Many of the No voter Scots feel that the vow and other promises have been watered down and feelings are running high.
That is what they feel, SNP are good at what they do! :)
-
Who knows what policies the Labour party has, might have?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/Jeremy_Corbyn/11875708/Labour-MPs-agree-to-serve-Jeremy-Corbyn-after-being-told-Trident-will-not-be-scrapped.html
-
Though he may have an ancestor to tell us
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34294556
-
Who knows what policies the Labour party has, might have?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/Jeremy_Corbyn/11875708/Labour-MPs-agree-to-serve-Jeremy-Corbyn-after-being-told-Trident-will-not-be-scrapped.html
Taking railways back into national ownership as their franchises run out.
Of course TOC's are screaming blue murder over privatised railways making profits but those franchises which operated temporarily under state control made profits too.
Corbyn therefore challenges the idea of total privatisation with medium profits for what are in many cases the nationalised railways of foreign countries against National prosperity( in terms of far more business ) possible through rail renationalisation.
-
The problem Labour has isn't what could happen outside of them i.e. voters coming and going, but what this will do to them internally. Many MPs expect Corbyn to fail and will sit on the side-lines and wait. This quiet temporary split will be fuel for those wanting to pull Labour apart. But if these usual Labour lot get to take the reins again the grassroots members wont be too happy. This will probably mean years of strife for Labour.
I gather that many ex-Scottish Labour voters have finished with Labour as they see no way that Labour could ever represent them again, which the SNP are doing. This could be true for the others you mention. Labour has also lost its boots on the ground in Scotland, as they only have one seat.
I think it depends on the neverendum, if SNP keep that on the agenda they are on safe ground as Labour are now more left than the SNP which they are (apart from Trident). You can see this is the tactic, i.e. keep talking up independence.
Corbyn is a republican the best bet for Labour would to stop being unionist party but become neutral on that issue. In fact its not that much of a change for them:-
http://www.u.tv/News/2015/09/15/Labour-view-of-united-Ireland-legitimate---SoS-44986
It would be like castrating the SNP. :)
Hello, whats this a change maybe, Kezia Dugdale would allow indyref 'free vote'!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-34301969
-
Good line from Tom Watson that leaving Labour to join the Lib Dems would be like 'Leaving the Beatles to join a Banarama tribute band'.
-
Good line from Tom Watson that leaving Labour to join the Lib Dems would be like 'Leaving the Beatles to join a Banarama tribute band'.
Depends on if your in politics for power or because you believe in what you stand for.
-
Depends on if your in politics for power or because you believe in what you stand for.
False argument. they are not exclusive - in fact one pretty much follows from the other.
You need to be in power to make the things you believe in happen. You know like the Lib dems did with tuition fees.....oh wait a minute.........
-
Good line from Tom Watson that leaving Labour to join the Lib Dems would be like 'Leaving the Beatles to join a Banarama tribute band'.
Depends on if your in politics for power or because you believe in what you stand for.
that it is a good line does not depend on that at all.
-
Depends on if your in politics for power or because you believe in what you stand for.
False argument. they are not exclusive - in fact one pretty much follows from the other.
You need to be in power to make the things you believe in happen. You know like the Lib dems did with tuition fees.....oh wait a minute.........
Wasn't really an argument but an analogy, you might just believe Banarama music is better even though you'd be financially worse off. The LibDems did try to get of the Labour introduced tuition fees but found the labour run government had run out of money.
-
had run out of money.
Are they still running that lie?
-
Depends on if your in politics for power or because you believe in what you stand for.
False argument. they are not exclusive - in fact one pretty much follows from the other.
You need to be in power to make the things you believe in happen. You know like the Lib dems did with tuition fees.....oh wait a minute.........
Wasn't really an argument but an analogy, you might just believe Banarama music is better even though you'd be financially worse off. The LibDems did try to get of the Labour introduced tuition fees but found the labour run government had run out of money.
which meant they shouldn't have made the pledge in the first place because it either makes them look like idiots or they didn't think they could get in so could just say any old Shiite - which was it in your opinion. And none of this stops Tom Watson's comment being a good line.
-
Depends on if your in politics for power or because you believe in what you stand for.
False argument. they are not exclusive - in fact one pretty much follows from the other.
You need to be in power to make the things you believe in happen. You know like the Lib dems did with tuition fees.....oh wait a minute.........
Wasn't really an argument but an analogy, you might just believe Banarama music is better even though you'd be financially worse off. The LibDems did try to get of the Labour introduced tuition fees but found the labour run government had run out of money.
which meant they shouldn't have made the pledge in the first place because it either makes them look like idiots or they didn't think they could get in so could just say any old Shiite - which was it in your opinion. And none of this stops Tom Watson's comment being a good line.
Its a good line never said it wasn't, a line Tony would be proud of!
-
Good line from Tom Watson that leaving Labour to join the Lib Dems would be like 'Leaving the Beatles to join a Banarama tribute band'.
The Beatles are half dead and in any case they self destructed in a bout of mutual antipathy.
-
Good line from Tom Watson that leaving Labour to join the Lib Dems would be like 'Leaving the Beatles to join a Banarama tribute band'.
The Beatles are half dead and in any case they self destructed in a bout of mutual antipathy.
Good one