Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => Politics & Current Affairs => Topic started by: Rhiannon on September 21, 2015, 12:27:02 PM
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http://news.stv.tv/scotland-decides/analysis/1327077-stephen-daisley-on-jeremy-corbyn-the-left-anti-semitism-and-israel/
http://leftfootforward.org/2015/06/an-open-letter-to-jeremy-corbyn/
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2015/09/no-jeremy-corbyn-not-antisemitic-left-should-be-wary-who-he-calls-friends
My Jewish friends have told me they will leave the UK and join family in Israel if Corbyn gets elected.
Is someone who (at best) makes such colossal errors of judgement a good Leader of the Opposition?
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What colossal errors of judgement - that he maintains a dialogue with the heads of political movements in contested areas? People were up in arms about politicians holding dialogue with Gerry Adams twenty years ago - some still are - and yet without that we wouldn't have achieved the as yet still fragile peace we have in Northern Ireland.
Corbyn's on record as saying that he doesn't agree with many of the things these people say or stand for, but he doesn't elect or nominate them to stand for their side of the argument, he simply ensures that they know there is someone they can talk to.
The first article you've listed just runs like a long attempt to classify any criticism of Israeli politics or Zionism as anti-Semitism, despite explicitly saying that Corby isn't anti-Semitic.
The second plays with time, citing statements Corbyn made a long time ago with more recently extremist views from someone whose position has shifted radically.
As it is, Cameron (for instance) has spoken of his regard for the Israeli leadership on several occasions, despite their consistent tendency to ignore the international community's condemnation of their continued military occupation of Palestinian territories and the oppressive use of their military to disrupt the everyday life of the Palestinians there.
Cameron has openly opposed these specific actions, and I don't doubt that he genuinely finds them abhorrent - that opposition has also been reported, yet people are loathe to represent the complexity of Corbyn's position on things, preferring to paint him as some swivel-eyed, leftist, Marxist loon.
O.
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Isn't it an error of judgement to call Hamas and Hessbolah 'friends' but not any moderate Jewish groups? Shouldn't he have checked out better the beliefs of those he is prepared to share a platform with? Surely a political negotiator needs the ear of people on both sides?
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What colossal errors of judgement - that he maintains a dialogue with the heads of political movements in contested areas?
The first article claims he once donated money to a holocaust denier.
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Isn't it an error of judgement to call Hamas and Hessbolah 'friends' but not any moderate Jewish groups? Shouldn't he have checked out better the beliefs of those he is prepared to share a platform with? Surely a political negotiator needs the ear of people on both sides?
In case of the Middle East, how does selling arms to Israel work with talking to the Palestinians? Though at least the pig thing will offend both sides.
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Perhaps this is left enough, O.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/aug/13/jeremy-corbyn-labour-leadership-foreign-policy-antisemitism
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/aug/26/antisemitism-left-racism-israel
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Isn't it an error of judgement to call Hamas and Hessbolah 'friends' but not any moderate Jewish groups?
That rather depends on whether it ever leads to peace, I suspect.
Shouldn't he have checked out better the beliefs of those he is prepared to share a platform with?
How is he supposed to check the future possible views of people he is asked to share a platform with now?
Surely a political negotiator needs the ear of people on both sides?
You'd think so, but the majority of the world doesn't seem to be listening to Hamas or Hezbollah, and are castigated if they do.
O.
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Reading the Hamas charter might have given him a few clues.
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What colossal errors of judgement - that he maintains a dialogue with the heads of political movements in contested areas?
The first article claims he once donated money to a holocaust denier.
And, again, timing is everything. He once donated money to someone who - many years later - publicly expressed holocaust denier views. At the time the donation was made, it wasn't for those purposes, and it wasn't to someone who was spreading those views.
O.
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Reading the Hamas charter might have given him a few clues.
Is it any worse than the IRA's statements of intent were, yet we spoke with them.
Is it any worse that Israel's continued behaviour in Palestine and their stated intention to keep expanding their territory into Palestinian lands, yet we sell them the guns to do it.
There are at least two sides in every conflict, and it's extremely rare that it's one side that's entirely in the right.
Horrible, terrible things have been done to the Jewish people, in the last hundred years in particular, but that doesn't absolve the current Israeli state of the awful things it's doing to Palestinians.
The worst Palestinian extremists have goals that are intolerable to modern, civilised behaviour, but they aren't going to be drawn to a negotiating table if no-one's speaking to them to issue an invitation.
O.
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Did the IRA charter call for all Protestants to be killed?
From Hamas:
“The prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said: ‘The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him!’
My friends are lifelong socialists. They can remember fleeing Europe - the wife lost most of her family to the Holocaust - and now they feel they may have to do so again. Why are their fears and those of the Jewish community not being listened to?
None of the commentators I have linked to -or my Jewish friends - thinks that the Holocaust is some kind of get-out-of-jail-free card for Israel. Why bring that into it?
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Did the IRA charter call for all Protestants to be killed?
From Hamas:
“The prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said: ‘The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him!’
Hamas, as an organisation, is one devoted to killing and genocide - not goals I would ever agree with, and I strongly suspect that Jeremy Corbyn wouldn't agree with, either.
However, those people that do agree are never going to be moved from that position by being ostracised for holding it - if no-one speaks to them, they will never see another side of the debate.
My friends are lifelong socialists. They can remember fleeing Europe - the wife lost most of her family to the Holocaust - and now they feel they may have to do so again. Why are their fears and those of the Jewish community not being listened to?
I don't personally know anyone that went through that, so I lack that personalised perspective. However, I'm not aware that anyone's not listening to them, but their perspective is only one view on the situation.
None of the commentators I have linked to -or my Jewish friends - thinks that the Holocaust is some kind of get-out-of-jail-free card for Israel. Why bring that into it?
Because it remains the defining feature of modern Jewish thought - understandably. They are the people for whom 'never again' holds more meaning that any other, and the Holocaust is something that colours their outlook. I don't say that pejoratively, as a nation Britain is still to an extent defined by the events of the Second World War, and our image of ourselves as bravely standing alone and winning against Hitler.
The occupation of Palestinian territories, the creation of the Jewish state, the implication that the election of a given politician will result in Jewish people needing to flee are all a result of the Holocaust and its cultural impact.
O.
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Not a fan of Comrade Corbyn but it does seem like the media have it out for him.
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Did the IRA charter call for all Protestants to be killed?
From Hamas:
“The prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said: ‘The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him!’
My friends are lifelong socialists. They can remember fleeing Europe - the wife lost most of her family to the Holocaust - and now they feel they may have to do so again. Why are their fears and those of the Jewish community not being listened to?
None of the commentators I have linked to -or my Jewish friends - thinks that the Holocaust is some kind of get-out-of-jail-free card for Israel. Why bring that into it?
any particular reason why you choose to represent the views of the Jewish community as being a singular one?
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It's certainly true that a lot of mud is being thrown at Corbyn, including the anti-semitic slur. As far as I can see, a lot of this is fabricated. The details are pretty difficult to ascertain, but this website has a go.
https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/asa-winstanley/4-reasons-anti-semitism-attacks-jeremy-corbyn-are-dishonest
Some of the Jewish left criticize attempts to portray Corbyn as anti-semitic:
http://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/142553/anti-israel-activists-attack-jc-challenging-jeremy-corbyn
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Not a fan of Comrade Corbyn but it does seem like the media have it out for him.
Pathetic, isn't it?
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What colossal errors of judgement - that he maintains a dialogue with the heads of political movements in contested areas? People were up in arms about politicians holding dialogue with Gerry Adams twenty years ago - some still are - and yet without that we wouldn't have achieved the as yet still fragile peace we have in Northern Ireland.
Corbyn's on record as saying that he doesn't agree with many of the things these people say or stand for, but he doesn't elect or nominate them to stand for their side of the argument, he simply ensures that they know there is someone they can talk to.
The first article you've listed just runs like a long attempt to classify any criticism of Israeli politics or Zionism as anti-Semitism, despite explicitly saying that Corby isn't anti-Semitic.
The second plays with time, citing statements Corbyn made a long time ago with more recently extremist views from someone whose position has shifted radically.
As it is, Cameron (for instance) has spoken of his regard for the Israeli leadership on several occasions, despite their consistent tendency to ignore the international community's condemnation of their continued military occupation of Palestinian territories and the oppressive use of their military to disrupt the everyday life of the Palestinians there.
Cameron has openly opposed these specific actions, and I don't doubt that he genuinely finds them abhorrent - that opposition has also been reported, yet people are loathe to represent the complexity of Corbyn's position on things, preferring to paint him as some swivel-eyed, leftist, Marxist loon.
O.
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Excellent post.
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Not a fan of Comrade Corbyn but it does seem like the media have it out for him.
Pathetic, isn't it?
Counter productive, if you ask me.
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Not a fan of Comrade Corbyn but it does seem like the media have it out for him.
Pathetic, isn't it?
Counter productive, if you ask me.
Agree the policies should be discussed, play the ball not the man, etc.