Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Bubbles on September 23, 2015, 08:02:38 AM
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I'm thinking it will bugger up their plans to buy Red Bull F1. Ferrari will supply Red Bull in the short term now that they've dumped Renault - or Renault have dumped them, possibly to buy out Lotus - but if Red Bull start beating Ferrari regularly that deal will be pulled.
So, Red Bull are probably looking at years of being behind in F1, or they will pull out altogether. I can't believe VW can afford to buy into F1 now, not unless they already have some kind of binding deal in place.
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I think that before we pour all our anger and disdain over VW we should wait and see what else emerges from the woodwork. I will not be surprised if we learn that a number of other motor manufacturers have been at it as well.
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My slight worry is that I have a much-loved, modern diesel and I'm concerned it will be forced off the road. I was hoping not to change it for at least ten years.
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My diesel's a Skoda. I think the writing is on the wall for our cars, sadly.
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My diesel's a Skoda. I think the writing is on the wall for our cars, sadly.
Don't panic, Mr Mainwearing!
I don't think that this is a matter of pollution. I don't think that there is anything seriously wrong with the engine. It is a matter of misrepresentation - telling lies to make the engine appear better than it is.
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My diesel's a Skoda. I think the writing is on the wall for our cars, sadly.
Don't panic, Mr Mainwearing!
I don't think that this is a matter of pollution. I don't think that there is anything seriously wrong with the engine. It is a matter of misrepresentation - telling lies to make the engine appear better than it is.
Surely it is a matter of pollution, as cars in Europe are putting out 10 to 40 times the expected amount of NOx emissions, causing between 20,000 to 30,000* deaths each year in the UK alone?
* Total estimated deaths due to NOx emissions. Possibly 12000 would be saved by ensuring vehicles meet the emissions standards.
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My diesel's a Skoda. I think the writing is on the wall for our cars, sadly.
Don't panic, Mr Mainwearing!
I don't think that this is a matter of pollution. I don't think that there is anything seriously wrong with the engine. It is a matter of misrepresentation - telling lies to make the engine appear better than it is.
Yes, I got that. I was just looking at the bigger picture - I think emissions targets will force diesels off the road in the way that leaded petrol was banned. The RAC are also warning of a potential diesel shortage in the UK. :-\
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My diesel's a Skoda. I think the writing is on the wall for our cars, sadly.
Don't panic, Mr Mainwearing!
I don't think that this is a matter of pollution. I don't think that there is anything seriously wrong with the engine. It is a matter of misrepresentation - telling lies to make the engine appear better than it is.
Surely it is a matter of pollution, as cars in Europe are putting out 10 to 40 times the expected amount of NOx emissions, causing between 20,000 to 30,000 additional deaths each year in the UK alone?
I think this is right in terms of VW. If EU market cars are found to have the same issue they will need to compensate every car owner.
Hopefully Skoda haven't been pulling the same trick.
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The good news might be that our testing system is different to the states, which might mean we won't have the same issues.
Unfortunately, Rose, the European (and hence British) testing system is nowhere near as stringent as the American one.
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The good news might be that our testing system is different to the states, which might mean we won't have the same issues.
Unfortunately, Rose, the European (and hence British) testing system is nowhere near as stringent as the American one.
I was under the impression that the American standards were, at least in theory, more demanding, but that their actual testing regimes and protocols were not - is that right, do you know?
O.
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Some of these figures are scary, for example, nearly 6000 deaths in London in 2010, from NO2. Is this all because of diesel?
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Mostly from freight, I would think. Car engines aren't the worst offenders.
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Mostly from freight, I would think. Car engines aren't the worst offenders.
I read your post a bit to quickly and read freight as fright but both are right anywhere on the roads in the London area.
I crossed on the green for pedestrians in Grays Inn road a little while back, was struck by a female cyclist and she told me off for getting in her way? Fright.
ippy
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Schadenfreude!!!
The Germans are suppose to be ultra efficient and reliable. They have been found cheating. This can only ruin their reputation. It is also a sign that the venal, flagitious clique elites have tainted even the better companies.
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Surely it is a matter of pollution, as cars in Europe are putting out 10 to 40 times the expected amount of NOx emissions, causing between 20,000 to 30,000* deaths each year in the UK alone?
No. VW is being investigated for fraud and deception. For private cars in the USA, owning a diesel engined vehicle is a rarity. The impact of private diesels on pollution is microscopic.
The Germans are suppose to be ultra efficient and reliable. They have been found cheating. This can only ruin their reputation. It is also a sign that the venal, flagitious clique elites have tainted even the better companies.
I think that we are being rather quick to condemn VW. We don't know yet whether this affair is the result of corporate decision making, or a single individual at a lower than corporate level having a good idea, or an outside contractor selling inappropriate software. I guess the CEO is going because this happened on his watch and he is prepared to be a scapegoat.
I'm thinking of buying a new car. I have not owned a gasoline car for the last 30 years. This might turn out to be something of benefit to me.
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Someone actually said this signals the end of capitalism.
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Someone actually said this signals the end of capitalism.
I wish they were right, but they won't be.
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My slight worry is that I have a much-loved, modern diesel and I'm concerned it will be forced off the road. I was hoping not to change it for at least ten years.
You'll be fine as long as they didn't do the same thing in the EU.
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Someone actually said this signals the end of capitalism.
I wish they were right, but they won't be.
The reason they won't be is that there isn't a known alternative that actually works.
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Some of these figures are scary, for example, nearly 6000 deaths in London in 2010, from NO2. Is this all because of diesel?
I would ask how they have come up with that figure. If 30,000 people die just from NOx emissions each year in the UK, that's more than 5% of all deaths (about the same as lung cancer). That's a figure I do not believe is credible.
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From Rose's article
Martin Leach, a consultant at Magma and a former head of Ford Europe, told the BBC that the problem is unlikely to emerge elsewhere.
"I don't think it will extend to other manufacturers. Volkswagen has really engaged to try to beat standards in the US. I would be surprised if it spreads outside the US as Europe's testing standards were more advanced and therefore more difficult to cheat than the US."
European tests are more sophisticated than the US ones, even if the standards aren't as strict, so VW probably aren't doing it in Europe.
Other manufacturers probably aren't doing it at all, apparently.
If I was running the EPA, having discovered the VW thing, I would already be looking at everybody else.
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Someone actually said this signals the end of capitalism.
I wish they were right, but they won't be.
Ditto.
ippy
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Someone actually said this signals the end of capitalism.
I wish they were right, but they won't be.
The reason they won't be is that there isn't a known alternative that actually works.
I'll go along with you there J P.
ippy
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Some of these figures are scary, for example, nearly 6000 deaths in London in 2010, from NO2. Is this all because of diesel?
I would ask how they have come up with that figure. If 30,000 people die just from NOx emissions each year in the UK, that's more than 5% of all deaths (about the same as lung cancer). That's a figure I do not believe is credible.
I suspect that what they've done is assign an alarmist-induced proportion of lung cancer deaths to the influence of NOx, and similarly a proportion of asthma deaths and a number of other cancers and lumped them in as a guesstimate to ensure front-page coverage on the Daily Fail and other panic-attack comics.
O.
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Some of these figures are scary, for example, nearly 6000 deaths in London in 2010, from NO2. Is this all because of diesel?
I would ask how they have come up with that figure. If 30,000 people die just from NOx emissions each year in the UK, that's more than 5% of all deaths (about the same as lung cancer). That's a figure I do not believe is credible.
But diesels will still be forced off the road.
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Some of these figures are scary, for example, nearly 6000 deaths in London in 2010, from NO2. Is this all because of diesel?
I would ask how they have come up with that figure. If 30,000 people die just from NOx emissions each year in the UK, that's more than 5% of all deaths (about the same as lung cancer). That's a figure I do not believe is credible.
But diesels will still be forced off the road.
Do you think this story is going to trigger anti-diesel hysteria? If we look at it rationally, one manufacturer has been caught cheating on the US regulations. In rational terms, that shouldn't provoke general anti-diesel feelings. Of course, "rational" doesn't always feature high on the Daily Fail's list of priorities.
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I'm reminded of a poem
Pollution, all around.
Sometimes up,
sometimes down.
But always around.
Pollution are you coming to my town?
Or am I coming to yours?
Ha! We're on different buses, pollution,
but we're both using petrol
-- (P)Rick
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hmmm...
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/world/article4566523.ece
Road tests carried out by the same group that exposed Volkswagen’s rigging of diesel emissions tests have shown that BMW’s X3 xDrive 20d emits the air pollutant nitrogen oxide at a level 11 times higher than the legal European limit, a German car magazine reported today.
“All measured data suggest that this is not a VW-specific issue,” Peter Mock, the Europe managing director at International Council on Clean Transportation (ICCT), told the publication, Auto Bild.
BMW vehemently denied manipulating or rigging diesel emissions tests and said it was going to ask for an immediate explanation from the ICCT of the test it had carried out on the X3 model.
The report nevertheless spooked investors and caused BMW shares to fall 9.7 per cent to €72.05 in late morning trading on the Frankfurt stock exchange.
In a double blow for the German car industry, transport minister Alexander Dobrindt confirmed what had been long suspected – that the software “defeat devices” built into VW diesel cars to fiddle US emissions tests had also been installed in European models.
“We have been informed that also in Europe, vehicles with 1.6 and 2.0 litre diesel engines are affected by the manipulations that are being talked about,” Mr Dobrindt said, adding that it was unclear how many vehicles in Europe were affected.
As VW stated 11m vehicles were affected, far greater than the number of VW diesel cars sold in the USA, many of the affected cars are likely to be in Europe.
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Some of these figures are scary, for example, nearly 6000 deaths in London in 2010, from NO2. Is this all because of diesel?
I would ask how they have come up with that figure. If 30,000 people die just from NOx emissions each year in the UK, that's more than 5% of all deaths (about the same as lung cancer). That's a figure I do not believe is credible.
But diesels will still be forced off the road.
Do you think this story is going to trigger anti-diesel hysteria? If we look at it rationally, one manufacturer has been caught cheating on the US regulations. In rational terms, that shouldn't provoke general anti-diesel feelings. Of course, "rational" doesn't always feature high on the Daily Fail's list of priorities.
No, I think the hysteria had already set in before this. Just do a google.
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/diesel-cars-could-be-banned-british-city-centres-after-supreme-court-ruling-1499044
There will be a huge environmental cost as people scrap perfectly good cars as nobody will want to buy them.
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I'm reminded of a poem
Pollution, all around.
Sometimes up,
sometimes down.
But always around.
Pollution are you coming to my town?
Or am I coming to yours?
Ha! We're on different buses, pollution,
but we're both using petrol
-- (P)Rick
;D
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There will be a huge environmental cost as people scrap perfectly good cars as nobody will want to buy them.
I think this bears repeating. The cost of building a car is an enormous quantity of energy. Volkswagen (ahem) estimated it is about one third of the fuel it will use in its life time. The now defunct government policy of scrapping old “uneconomic” cars probably had the reverse effect that they wanted since the energy cost of all the new cars to replace them completely outweighed the savings.
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There will be a huge environmental cost as people scrap perfectly good cars as nobody will want to buy them.
I think this bears repeating. The cost of building a car is an enormous quantity of energy. Volkswagen (ahem) estimated it is about one third of the fuel it will use in its life time. The now defunct government policy of scrapping old “uneconomic” cars probably had the reverse effect that they wanted since the energy cost of all the new cars to replace them completely outweighed the savings.
Agree so much.
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Some of these figures are scary, for example, nearly 6000 deaths in London in 2010, from NO2. Is this all because of diesel?
I would ask how they have come up with that figure. If 30,000 people die just from NOx emissions each year in the UK, that's more than 5% of all deaths (about the same as lung cancer). That's a figure I do not believe is credible.
I don't know their research methods, but they seem to be saying that previously the effects of diesel had been underestimated. Actually, the total for London from pollution is given as nearly 10, 000, and for the UK 60, 000 (not just N02).
People seem to be all over the place about it - I noticed that Boris at first was indignant at the idea that Oxford St was the most polluted street in the world, but now he is talking of 'diesel scrappage', whatever that means. He also said that he is sorry for people who were 'seduced into buying diesel'. How were they seduced?
http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/jul/15/nearly-9500-people-die-each-year-in-london-because-of-air-pollution-study
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Someone actually said this signals the end of capitalism.
I wish they were right, but they won't be.
The reason they won't be is that there isn't a known alternative that actually works.
I wasn't aware we'd even attempted let alone exhausted all the alternatives.
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Someone actually said this signals the end of capitalism.
I wish they were right, but they won't be.
The reason they won't be is that there isn't a known alternative that actually works.
I wasn't aware we'd even attempted let alone exhausted all the alternatives.
Well we've (that is people have) tried various styles of command economy, and they don't seem to work.
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There will be a huge environmental cost as people scrap perfectly good cars as nobody will want to buy them.
I think this bears repeating. The cost of building a car is an enormous quantity of energy. Volkswagen (ahem) estimated it is about one third of the fuel it will use in its life time. The now defunct government policy of scrapping old “uneconomic” cars probably had the reverse effect that they wanted since the energy cost of all the new cars to replace them completely outweighed the savings.
It' not a question of scrapping these cars though is it? The software will need to be patched to keep the car in modes which conform to the emissions standards. Owners should be compensated for the failure to meet the claimed performance - ultimately reflected in the resale value of the car. Tax rates should be modified to reflect the actual emissions if they cannot meet their specification.
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I suspect other car firms are also involved in this sort of scam!
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I suspect other car firms are also involved in this sort of scam!
Volkswagen isn't even the first, there is a long history of scamming the system.
http://arstechnica.com/cars/2015/10/volkswagens-emissions-cheating-scandal-has-a-long-complicated-history/
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Good joke on HIGNFY the other night:
Following the VW emissions scandal, it's been reported that their chief engineer has killed himself...
...he didn't mean to, he was just parking his car in his garage last night.
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Good joke on HIGNFY the other night:
Following the VW emissions scandal, it's been reported that their chief engineer has killed himself...
...he didn't mean to, he was just parking his car in his garage last night.
Apparently whoever cracked that joke on HIGNFY was due to go on stage but couldn't because they felt a little funny.........their manager told them to get on quick before it wore off.
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Good joke on HIGNFY the other night:
Following the VW emissions scandal, it's been reported that their chief engineer has killed himself...
...he didn't mean to, he was just parking his car in his garage last night.
That's a real choker!!!
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I hope you lot have heard that the EU's Commission isn't going to do an investigation into VW even though by cheating they have killed people. The EU has nothing to do with helping the people and ensuring the rule of law and everything about lining their pockets, keeping power for their elites and big business. And of course our Fuhrer Merkel has ensured all this will be kept at a low ebb.
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VW ... by cheating they have killed people.
Really? I think we need to see one evidence of that.
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VW ... by cheating they have killed people.
Really? I think we need to see one evidence of that.
You never were the sharpest tool in the box, were you!
Work it out Jeremy, why were there emission limits in the first place?
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VW ... by cheating they have killed people.
Really? I think we need to see one evidence of that.
You never were the sharpest tool in the box, were you!
Right, so actually you are bullshitting. You don't know.
The questions you need to answer are
1. Exactly which emissions does this cheat device suppress?
2. How much worse are they in real driving?
3. What percentage of the total emissions of the type that is the answer to Q1 by all vehicles does the answer to Q2 represent?
4. How many extra people are dead as a result?
I don't think you know the answer to any of those questions (well, maybe you know Q1).
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VW ... by cheating they have killed people.
Really? I think we need to see one evidence of that.
You never were the sharpest tool in the box, were you!
Right, so actually you are bullshitting. You don't know.
The questions you need to answer are
1. Exactly which emissions does this cheat device suppress?
2. How much worse are they in real driving?
3. What percentage of the total emissions of the type that is the answer to Q1 by all vehicles does the answer to Q2 represent?
4. How many extra people are dead as a result?
I don't think you know the answer to any of those questions (well, maybe you know Q1).
For 1-3 you have to ask yourself why are they going to have their asses sued right off in the US? As for the US requirements I have heard that the emissions during normal use are 35 to 40 higher than legally allowable.
As for 4, and for my question in my last post, the whole point of keeping emission down is because they cause health problems and what does bad health problems lead to......?
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The questions you need to answer are
1. Exactly which emissions does this cheat device suppress?
2. How much worse are they in real driving?
3. What percentage of the total emissions of the type that is the answer to Q1 by all vehicles does the answer to Q2 represent?
4. How many extra people are dead as a result?
I don't think you know the answer to any of those questions (well, maybe you know Q1).
For 1-3 you have to ask yourself why are they going to have their asses sued right off in the US?
We know why they are going to be sued, they sold cars under false pretences.
As for the US requirements I have heard that the emissions during normal use are 35 to 40 higher than legally allowable.
Emissions of what though? And what percentage do they increase the concentration of said emissions in the atmosphere?
As for 4, and for my question in my last post, the whole point of keeping emission down is because they cause health problems and what does bad health problems lead to......?
You made a specific accusation that Volkswagen were killing people, by their cheating. Now you seem to be offering only vague connections.
The number of diesel Volkswagen cars in the USA is minuscule. If the emissions was 45% higher from them than expected, it is still a drop in the ocean compared to all the articulated lorries.
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The questions you need to answer are
1. Exactly which emissions does this cheat device suppress?
2. How much worse are they in real driving?
3. What percentage of the total emissions of the type that is the answer to Q1 by all vehicles does the answer to Q2 represent?
4. How many extra people are dead as a result?
I don't think you know the answer to any of those questions (well, maybe you know Q1).
For 1-3 you have to ask yourself why are they going to have their asses sued right off in the US?
We know why they are going to be sued, they sold cars under false pretences.
As for the US requirements I have heard that the emissions during normal use are 35 to 40 higher than legally allowable.
Emissions of what though? And what percentage do they increase the concentration of said emissions in the atmosphere?
As for 4, and for my question in my last post, the whole point of keeping emission down is because they cause health problems and what does bad health problems lead to......?
You made a specific accusation that Volkswagen were killing people, by their cheating. Now you seem to be offering only vague connections.
The number of diesel Volkswagen cars in the USA is minuscule. If the emissions was 45% higher from them than expected, it is still a drop in the ocean compared to all the articulated lorries.
I am offering here the logic of the argument not details which there is no need here to proffer. So further with this, the levels of pollutants rise in cities like London where there are relatively narrow streets where they become trapped and concentrated. And I repeat the law asks for these restrictions because these emissions are conducive to poor health which in turn shortens lives.
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I am offering here the logic of the argument not details which there is no need here to proffer.
You are not offering logic at all. Volkswagen are not going to have a hefty fine because they killed anybody, they will be fined because they cheated. The are not going to be sued because they killed anybody, they are going to be sued for misrepresenting their product.
Give me some facts. Give me a peer reviewed study with an estimate of the number of people they have killed by this measure.
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I am offering here the logic of the argument not details which there is no need here to proffer.
You are not offering logic at all. Volkswagen are not going to have a hefty fine because they killed anybody, they will be fined because they cheated. The are not going to be sued because they killed anybody, they are going to be sued for misrepresenting their product.
Give me some facts. Give me a peer reviewed study with an estimate of the number of people they have killed by this measure.
So are you saying that nobody will sue them for inflicting or imposing them or their city to ill health because of their car emissions? And remember ill health leads to a shortened lifespan and reduced quality of life. As they say watch this space, not this space per se, but the unrolling of events.
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Got a letter today to say my Skoda will be recalled to have some gizmo fitted (once they've invented it) because its engine is a VW.
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So are you saying that nobody will sue them for inflicting or imposing them or their city to ill health
You claimed that they killed people, not just made them ill. Please stop moving the goal posts.
I think it would be extraordinarily difficult to successfully sue Volswagen for causing deaths in this instance because Volkswagen can say "well what about all those 18 wheelers pumping out emissions at a rate much higher than all our diesel cars.
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Agree. They are much more likely to be sued by owners who lose out financially.
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So are you saying that nobody will sue them for inflicting or imposing them or their city to ill health
You claimed that they killed people, not just made them ill. Please stop moving the goal posts.
I think it would be extraordinarily difficult to successfully sue Volswagen for causing deaths in this instance because Volkswagen can say "well what about all those 18 wheelers pumping out emissions at a rate much higher than all our diesel cars.
So what do you call it when someone acquires an incurable illness from someone else's wilful negligence which results in their death?
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You wouldn't be able to demonstrate that was only because of diesel emissions from dodgy VW engines.
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You wouldn't be able to demonstrate that was only because of diesel emissions from dodgy VW engines.
Individually, no, but a class action (say from emphesema sufferers, or asthmatics) or a government action on behalf of health service providers wouldn't need to demonstrate individual cases, but rather that there is documented evidence that some of the emissions have been associated with health effects.
O.
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You wouldn't be able to demonstrate that was only because of diesel emissions from dodgy VW engines.
Individually, no, but a class action (say from emphesema sufferers, or asthmatics) or a government action on behalf of health service providers wouldn't need to demonstrate individual cases, but rather that there is documented evidence that some of the emissions have been associated with health effects.
O.
How could they do that? They'd need to be able to quantify it.
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You wouldn't be able to demonstrate that was only because of diesel emissions from dodgy VW engines.
Individually, no, but a class action (say from emphesema sufferers, or asthmatics) or a government action on behalf of health service providers wouldn't need to demonstrate individual cases, but rather that there is documented evidence that some of the emissions have been associated with health effects.
O.
How could they do that? They'd need to be able to quantify it.
No, they just need to show that the particulates that are being produced in excess of what they originally claimed have been linked with health problems. Once they've done that Volkswagen will settle out of court to avoid having it dragged through the public eye that they are trying to push down the dollar value of the lives they've affected.
Proving the link is easy, and therefore they know they'll lose. They therefore won't go to court - what settlement they come to out of the public eye, of course, will be mitigated by them pleading to the various governments that the hit they take will affect jobs and productivity... and so the greasy wheel keeps on slipping and sliding along :(
O.
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You wouldn't be able to demonstrate that was only because of diesel emissions from dodgy VW engines.
Individually, no, but a class action (say from emphesema sufferers, or asthmatics) or a government action on behalf of health service providers wouldn't need to demonstrate individual cases, but rather that there is documented evidence that some of the emissions have been associated with health effects.
O.
Exactly. And places like central London etc. where the traffic is heavy in relatively enclosed areas, or where the air circulation is poor, and where they have monitoring units that provide details of the levels of pollutants then there may be a good case for authorities to make a claim.
On Newsnight last night there was a piece on this where evidence is indicating that particulates from car fumes are getting into peoples brains, and for children this means a slowing down of the neuron firing rate making them slow to learn etc.
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So what do you call it when someone acquires an incurable illness from someone else's wilful negligence which results in their death?
Can you prove that Volkswagen's cheat device has killed anybody?
No.
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No, they just need to show that the particulates that are being produced in excess of what they originally claimed have been linked with health problems.
Nope. If you are claiming that Volkswagen are causing the deaths, you have to prove it was them and not any of the other many many diesel engines on the road.
Proving the link is easy, and therefore they know they'll lose.
It clearly isn't, otherwise Jack the Knave would have produced the evidence.
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So what do you call it when someone acquires an incurable illness from someone else's wilful negligence which results in their death?
Can you prove that Volkswagen's cheat device has killed anybody?
No.
As I have explained it will be a statistical thing.
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So what do you call it when someone acquires an incurable illness from someone else's wilful negligence which results in their death?
Can you prove that Volkswagen's cheat device has killed anybody?
No.
As I have explained it will be a statistical thing.
So on you go, prove your claim, statistically?
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So what do you call it when someone acquires an incurable illness from someone else's wilful negligence which results in their death?
Can you prove that Volkswagen's cheat device has killed anybody?
No.
As I have explained it will be a statistical thing.
Show me the statistics then.
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So what do you call it when someone acquires an incurable illness from someone else's wilful negligence which results in their death?
Can you prove that Volkswagen's cheat device has killed anybody?
No.
As I have explained it will be a statistical thing.
Show me the statistics then.
I'll leave that to those, scientists and researchers etc. who have been talking about this in the media.
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I'll leave that to those, scientists and researchers etc. who have been talking about this in the media.
If they've been talking about it in the media, it shouldn't be too hard for you to provide a link.
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No, they just need to show that the particulates that are being produced in excess of what they originally claimed have been linked with health problems.
Nope. If you are claiming that Volkswagen are causing the deaths, you have to prove it was them and not any of the other many many diesel engines on the road.
Proving the link is easy, and therefore they know they'll lose.
It clearly isn't, otherwise Jack the Knave would have produced the evidence.
This is my point - in the media they will claim that Volkswagen have helped to kill people, but in court they will simply show that they have exceeded the limits that were put in place for - amongst other reasons - health benefits. The evidence that particulates cause health problems is already well-established.
O.
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I am going to be mightily pissed if my car gets pulled off the road because of this. >:(
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I'll leave that to those, scientists and researchers etc. who have been talking about this in the media.
If they've been talking about it in the media, it shouldn't be too hard for you to provide a link.
What from the TV?
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I am going to be mightily pissed if my car gets pulled off the road because of this. >:(
Just as long as you are not driving whilst pissed then you will be pulled over and off the road.
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I am going to be mightily pissed if my car gets pulled off the road because of this. >:(
Just as long as you are not driving whilst pissed then you will be pulled over and off the road.
I won't have a bloody car, will I?
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I am going to be mightily pissed if my car gets pulled off the road because of this. >:(
Just as long as you are not driving whilst pissed then you will be pulled over and off the road.
I won't have a bloody car, will I?
I'm not sure how things will be carried out but you may hear about this action to remove your car before it is actually implemented...
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I am going to be mightily pissed if my car gets pulled off the road because of this. >:(
Just as long as you are not driving whilst pissed then you will be pulled over and off the road.
I won't have a bloody car, will I?
I'm not sure how things will be carried out but you may hear about this action to remove your car before it is actually implemented...
I've been notified about getting it 'fixed', which is no problem - I just want to be able to use it in the meantime.
I think it will depend on whether our government implements EU law or does its own thing.
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I'm not overly fussed about my road tax and my intention is to keep it for as long as possible, so resale value doesn't matter. But having finally found a car I feel comfortable driving I will be really cross if I have to lose it. I can't afford to replace it.
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I am going to be mightily pissed if my car gets pulled off the road because of this. >:(
Just as long as you are not driving whilst pissed then you will be pulled over and off the road.
I won't have a bloody car, will I?
I'm not sure how things will be carried out but you may hear about this action to remove your car before it is actually implemented...
I've been notified about getting it 'fixed', which is no problem - I just want to be able to use it in the meantime.
I think it will depend on whether our government implements EU law or does its own thing.
What does 'fix' mean, software and/or hardware? The hardware that I've heard sounds like a fairly major job and so will take time.
In the mean time your car still works, I don't understand why it would be docked until the work is done, which could be ages if it is hardware.
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I am going to be mightily pissed if my car gets pulled off the road because of this. >:(
Just as long as you are not driving whilst pissed then you will be pulled over and off the road.
I won't have a bloody car, will I?
I'm not sure how things will be carried out but you may hear about this action to remove your car before it is actually implemented...
I've been notified about getting it 'fixed', which is no problem - I just want to be able to use it in the meantime.
I think it will depend on whether our government implements EU law or does its own thing.
What does 'fix' mean, software and/or hardware? The hardware that I've heard sounds like a fairly major job and so will take time.
In the mean time your car still works, I don't understand why it would be docked until the work is done, which could be ages if it is hardware.
According to the letter they are working on 'technical solutions' but it isn't expected to be a big job.
The recall in Germany bothers me because as I understand it, a recall means a car isn't legal to drive for safety or security reasons, at least in the UK. If a recall is issued rather than just a request for getting this issue fixed then in my understanding that means taking all affected cars off the road, either until the issue is sorted or otherwise indefinitely. Presumably the worst case scenario would be if the issue can't be sorted then they'll be scrapped, which would be a hideous waste of energy and resources.
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I am going to be mightily pissed if my car gets pulled off the road because of this. >:(
Just as long as you are not driving whilst pissed then you will be pulled over and off the road.
I won't have a bloody car, will I?
I'm not sure how things will be carried out but you may hear about this action to remove your car before it is actually implemented...
I've been notified about getting it 'fixed', which is no problem - I just want to be able to use it in the meantime.
I think it will depend on whether our government implements EU law or does its own thing.
What does 'fix' mean, software and/or hardware? The hardware that I've heard sounds like a fairly major job and so will take time.
In the mean time your car still works, I don't understand why it would be docked until the work is done, which could be ages if it is hardware.
According to the letter they are working on 'technical solutions' but it isn't expected to be a big job.
The recall in Germany bothers me because as I understand it, a recall means a car isn't legal to drive for safety or security reasons, at least in the UK. If a recall is issued rather than just a request for getting this issue fixed then in my understanding that means taking all affected cars off the road, either until the issue is sorted or otherwise indefinitely. Presumably the worst case scenario would be if the issue can't be sorted then they'll be scrapped, which would be a hideous waste of energy and resources.
From what I have heard, or gather, all cars can be fixed and it would seem to me to not be a recall issue, but I'm no lawyer. I can appreciate your annoyance, it would piss me off too if I'd been affected.
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Especially as I haven't even got a bloody Volkswagen.
I hope you are right and thank you for your sympathy. :)
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I am going to be mightily pissed if my car gets pulled off the road because of this. >:(
Just as long as you are not driving whilst pissed then you will be pulled over and off the road.
I won't have a bloody car, will I?
I'm not sure how things will be carried out but you may hear about this action to remove your car before it is actually implemented...
I've been notified about getting it 'fixed', which is no problem - I just want to be able to use it in the meantime.
I think it will depend on whether our government implements EU law or does its own thing.
What does 'fix' mean, software and/or hardware? The hardware that I've heard sounds like a fairly major job and so will take time.
In the mean time your car still works, I don't understand why it would be docked until the work is done, which could be ages if it is hardware.
According to the letter they are working on 'technical solutions' but it isn't expected to be a big job.
The recall in Germany bothers me because as I understand it, a recall means a car isn't legal to drive for safety or security reasons, at least in the UK. If a recall is issued rather than just a request for getting this issue fixed then in my understanding that means taking all affected cars off the road, either until the issue is sorted or otherwise indefinitely. Presumably the worst case scenario would be if the issue can't be sorted then they'll be scrapped, which would be a hideous waste of energy and resources.
From what I have heard, or gather, all cars can be fixed and it would seem to me to not be a recall issue, but I'm no lawyer. I can appreciate your annoyance, it would piss me off too if I'd been affected.
And my understanding is similar to Jack Knave's.
As far as I know, no-one has said that the cars are producing levels of pollutant which are illegal (thus making vehicles unroadworthy) but that the software presents lower levels than actually exist when the engine runs under test conditions. My guess is that the recall will involve just a software partch so that the car no longer tells a lie.
So, after the recall your car will behave exactly as it had before except when being tested. HM Treasury may find the opportunity to reorganise the Motor Vehicle Tax to its advantage to be irresistable.
And that will be that.
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I hope so. I love my car - she's called Mathilde after a metal horse on wheels from the Agatha Christie novel Postern of Fate.
The thing with taxes is that any government can change them at any time. Buying because of tax banding thinking nothing will change is madness anyway.
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I'm not overly fussed about my road tax and my intention is to keep it for as long as possible, so resale value doesn't matter. But having finally found a car I feel comfortable driving I will be really cross if I have to lose it. I can't afford to replace it.
They won't take it off you but if they did, Volkswagen would have to pay you compensation.
The worst that will happen is that the car gets recalled and when you get it back it had less performance and is less economical.
Incidentally, a friend of mine is now thinking of buying a nearly new Volkswagen diesel because he has reasoned that the second hand prices are going to tank now.
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The recall + fix will be voluntary. The government has also stated they they won't increase the tax due to increased CO2 emission from fixed vehicles.
Jeremy's friend and the like minded are obviously helping to stop the second hand prices falling.
Has everyone stopped following the news in fear of hearing upsetting items?
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The recall + fix will be voluntary. The government has also stated they they won't increase the tax due to increased CO2 emission from fixed vehicles.
Jeremy's friend and the like minded are obviously helping to stop the second hand prices falling.
Has everyone stopped following the news in fear of hearing upsetting items?
Why would anyone do that?
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I'm not overly fussed about my road tax and my intention is to keep it for as long as possible, so resale value doesn't matter. But having finally found a car I feel comfortable driving I will be really cross if I have to lose it. I can't afford to replace it.
They won't take it off you but if they did, Volkswagen would have to pay you compensation.
The worst that will happen is that the car gets recalled and when you get it back it had less performance and is less economical.
Incidentally, a friend of mine is now thinking of buying a nearly new Volkswagen diesel because he has reasoned that the second hand prices are going to tank now.
Don't blame him. My Skoda's a VW cousin and it's a great little car.
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I'm not overly fussed about my road tax and my intention is to keep it for as long as possible, so resale value doesn't matter. But having finally found a car I feel comfortable driving I will be really cross if I have to lose it. I can't afford to replace it.
They won't take it off you but if they did, Volkswagen would have to pay you compensation.
The worst that will happen is that the car gets recalled and when you get it back it had less performance and is less economical.
Incidentally, a friend of mine is now thinking of buying a nearly new Volkswagen diesel because he has reasoned that the second hand prices are going to tank now.
Don't blame him. My Skoda's a VW cousin and it's a great little car.
Many years ago when our youngest girl was a teenager, we consider getting Skoda as a third car. She said she wouldn't be seen dead in it, as it was uncool or something in those days! ;D
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I'm not overly fussed about my road tax and my intention is to keep it for as long as possible, so resale value doesn't matter. But having finally found a car I feel comfortable driving I will be really cross if I have to lose it. I can't afford to replace it.
They won't take it off you but if they did, Volkswagen would have to pay you compensation.
The worst that will happen is that the car gets recalled and when you get it back it had less performance and is less economical.
Incidentally, a friend of mine is now thinking of buying a nearly new Volkswagen diesel because he has reasoned that the second hand prices are going to tank now.
Don't blame him. My Skoda's a VW cousin and it's a great little car.
Many years ago when our youngest girl was a teenager, we consider getting Skoda as a third car. She said she wouldn't be seen dead in it, as it was uncool or something in those days! ;D
They've had a serious makeover since then. :)
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I'm not overly fussed about my road tax and my intention is to keep it for as long as possible, so resale value doesn't matter. But having finally found a car I feel comfortable driving I will be really cross if I have to lose it. I can't afford to replace it.
They won't take it off you but if they did, Volkswagen would have to pay you compensation.
The worst that will happen is that the car gets recalled and when you get it back it had less performance and is less economical.
Incidentally, a friend of mine is now thinking of buying a nearly new Volkswagen diesel because he has reasoned that the second hand prices are going to tank now.
Don't blame him. My Skoda's a VW cousin and it's a great little car.
Many years ago when our youngest girl was a teenager, we consider getting Skoda as a third car. She said she wouldn't be seen dead in it, as it was uncool or something in those days! ;D
They've had a serious makeover since then. :)
So I believe. However the Honda Jazz is my car of choice these days.
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Rubbish on the lanes round here though. Some of them are so bad it's like taking part in a rally. I would have looked at a Qashqai but they are hard to find with 4WD in the UK.
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The recall + fix will be voluntary. The government has also stated they they won't increase the tax due to increased CO2 emission from fixed vehicles.
Jeremy's friend and the like minded are obviously helping to stop the second hand prices falling.
Has everyone stopped following the news in fear of hearing upsetting items?
Why would anyone do that?
Just that most the questions and concerns in this thread have been comprehensibly dealt with in the media.
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The recall + fix will be voluntary. The government has also stated they they won't increase the tax due to increased CO2 emission from fixed vehicles.
Jeremy's friend and the like minded are obviously helping to stop the second hand prices falling.
Has everyone stopped following the news in fear of hearing upsetting items?
Why would anyone do that?
Just that most the questions and concerns in this thread have been comprehensibly dealt with in the media.
So you mean you are asking me directly if I have stopped following the news because I don't want to get upset, am I right?
That is to misunderstand my point about not watching the news, which is about maintaining perspective - not wanting to be upset or worried is a bad reason for avoiding news media in the same way that avoiding dogs increases the fear of dogs.
Secondly, where did you think I got the info on the German recall and what a recall means in English terminology? (Which isn't the same thing as the voluntary scheme currently proposed, at least according to the BBC website the last time I looked - things have only been recalled in the UK if they are unsafe, although from what I can gather this instance is now changing that).
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Rhi, no idea where you get your news but you did seem concerned about your car being taken away from you. If you have followed the news (eg BBC or the papers) it should have been clear that it would not.
In fact VW, associated manufacturers and the owners have gotten off very lightly considering possible effects of cheating on specifications, regulations and tests. Definitely time to tighten up on these, imo.
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Don't blame him. My Skoda's a VW cousin and it's a great little car.
I totally agree, in fact, your Skoda is a VW, but it is one whose rep is tarnished which means that resale prices will be depressed for a while and therefore is a bargain.
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I would have looked at a Qashqai
That's a gourd isn't it or a squash.
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Rhi, no idea where you get your news but you did seem concerned about your car being taken away from you. If you have followed the news (eg BBC or the papers) it should have been clear that it would not.
In fact VW, associated manufacturers and the owners have gotten off very lightly considering possible effects of cheating on specifications, regulations and tests. Definitely time to tighten up on these, imo.
I was only going by the fact that the BBC said that a recall isn't (or wasn't) the same thing as recommending a modification, and also that governments change their minds. What they say today isn't always what they will do tomorrow.
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Don't blame him. My Skoda's a VW cousin and it's a great little car.
I totally agree, in fact, your Skoda is a VW, but it is one whose rep is tarnished which means that resale prices will be depressed for a while and therefore is a bargain.
Yes, I'd gathered it was a VW with a Skoda badge but I don't really know how that works.
Really not fussed about the resale value at all.
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Don't blame him. My Skoda's a VW cousin and it's a great little car.
I totally agree, in fact, your Skoda is a VW, but it is one whose rep is tarnished which means that resale prices will be depressed for a while and therefore is a bargain.
Yes, I'd gathered it was a VW with a Skoda badge but I don't really know how that works.
Really not fussed about the resale value at all.
A little known fact ....
The main VW assembly plant at Wolfsburg was old and creaking at the seams. Up to 60% of its output on any day had to undergo reworking to overcome quality control inspection failures.
When VW acquired Skoda, the Skoda assembly plant was completely rebuilt. Skoda vehicles are now essential VW vehicles with Skoda badging and some trim differences, with both brands being produced on the same assembly lines. The output from Skoda was virtually perfect with very, very few inspection failures.
Skoda-built VWs were better quality than Wolfsburg VWs.
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News just in: the VW scandal will cause 60 extra premature deaths in the USA, with more if they don't get the cars fixed.
http://arstechnica.com/science/2015/10/vw-emissions-fraud-will-cause-about-60-premature-deaths-in-us/
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And in Europe, where their diesel cars are used more widely?
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And in Europe, where their diesel cars are used more widely?
I haven't seen a report on that yet.
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News just in: the VW scandal will cause 60 extra premature deaths in the USA, with more if they don't get the cars fixed.
http://arstechnica.com/science/2015/10/vw-emissions-fraud-will-cause-about-60-premature-deaths-in-us/
Why, I wonder, is there not greater concern for the millions of US citizens who are, therefore, going to die as a consequence of the diesel-engined road rigs that transport the majority of goods around the country?
Or for the thousands who will die as a result of the huge multi-locomotive diesel freight trains that criss-cross the nation?
Or for all those people living near rivers, canals, lakes and seaports who will die unnecessarily because irresponsible boat and ship owners use diesel engines?
The number of diesel-engined VW cars sold in the USA is very small. The amount of pollution directly attributable to them is microscopic.
Even if this number crunching exercise is valid, for every US citizen that dies because of this increased risk 5,300,000 do not.
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Why, I wonder, is there not greater concern for the millions of US citizens who are, therefore, going to die as a consequence of the diesel-engined road rigs that transport the majority of goods around the country?
There is, but there isn't as much news in that because they've not (that we've seen, yet) been lying about the quantity of their emissions. It's not the emissions that are really the story, they're just decoration: it's corporate lying. And, of course, it's not about actually educating anyone or making a coherent point or trying to improve the world significantly: it's the media, it's just another form of corporate lying.
O.