Religion and Ethics Forum
Religion and Ethics Discussion => Christian Topic => Topic started by: floo on September 27, 2015, 01:37:40 PM
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Why do many extreme fundies/Biblical literalists seem so scared of being questioned about their faith?
Recently I have been on a couple of fundie Christian forums where I quite politely questioned why their deity was described as a god of love, and received the bum's rush very quickly. ;D
Perhaps you could quote the way in which you 'politely' asked your question.
I suspect if instead of blindly accepting it all as true, they allowed a question or two to creep in, they might find that their belief lacked any substance!
The more questions I and others ask, Floo, the more substance I find in mine.
I also suspect that a lot of fundies hang onto their faith as a form of fire insurance as they are terrified of the consequences if they kick it into touch! I think that applies to a few posters on this forum as well.
Do you have any evidence for that suggestion? I have certainly met a few atheists whose arguments would suggest that they would fit your description - so, as we are all human, there are probably some religious people who do as well.
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Hope, you can't answer the question I put on those two forums, you always fudge it!
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Hope, you can't answer the question I put on those two forums, you always fudge it!
The problem is that often what you call 'questions' are unsubstantiated statements, and often that is then complicated by the fact that you use terminology that is, at the best, ambiguous.
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Hope, you can't answer the question I put on those two forums, you always fudge it!
Well you know they've usually invested some considerable time and effort into this religion nonsense and there is a certain amount of social content in the investment they've made plus it's difficult when some have made this kind of commitment there will always be some loss of face if they allow themselves to admit their innermost thoughts about how they do at last realise how fallible the whole idea of there being some sort of super being in existence and of course there will always be those too pompous to ever admit they might have got anything wrong.
As for the silly, prove there isn't a god thingy, how silly can you get, it doesn't matter how many times you might like to inform these people where they're going wrong or tell them they haven't quite got it, you know what the next question is going to be______________?
ippy
PS Floo I had thought of saying in Hopes case where he can't supply a credible answer he will get picky about how you have presented your post, having read his last post to you, BINGO!
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Hope, you can't answer the question I put on those two forums, you always fudge it!
Well you know they've usually invested some considerable time and effort into this religion nonsense and there is a certain amount of social content in the investment they've made plus it's difficult when some have made this kind of commitment there will always be some loss of face if they allow themselves to admit their innermost thoughts about how they do at last realise how fallible the whole idea of there being some sort of super being in existence and of course there will always be those too pompous to ever admit they might have got anything wrong.
As for the silly, prove there isn't a god thingy, how silly can you get, it doesn't matter how many times you might like to inform these people where they're going wrong or tell them they haven't quite got it, you know what the next question is going to be______________?
ippy
PS Floo I had thought of saying in Hopes case where he can't supply a credible answer he will get picky about how you have presented your post, having read his last post to you, BINGO!
Ippy have you got anything to say other than it's all rubbish?
Why do you think it's all rubbish?......Clue........''Because it is'' is not satisfactory.
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Hope, you can't answer the question I put on those two forums, you always fudge it!
The problem is that often what you call 'questions' are unsubstantiated statements, and often that is then complicated by the fact that you use terminology that is, at the best, ambiguous.
WHY IS THE DEITY CALLED A GOD OF LOVE? Is that ambiguous? ::)
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Hope, you can't answer the question I put on those two forums, you always fudge it!
Well you know they've usually invested some considerable time and effort into this religion nonsense and there is a certain amount of social content in the investment they've made plus it's difficult when some have made this kind of commitment there will always be some loss of face if they allow themselves to admit their innermost thoughts about how they do at last realise how fallible the whole idea of there being some sort of super being in existence and of course there will always be those too pompous to ever admit they might have got anything wrong.
As for the silly, prove there isn't a god thingy, how silly can you get, it doesn't matter how many times you might like to inform these people where they're going wrong or tell them they haven't quite got it, you know what the next question is going to be______________?
ippy
PS Floo I had thought of saying in Hopes case where he can't supply a credible answer he will get picky about how you have presented your post, having read his last post to you, BINGO!
Ippy have you got anything to say other than it's all rubbish?
Why do you think it's all rubbish?......Clue........''Because it is'' is not satisfactory.
Arr Vladicus I didn't use the word rubbish I like to use the correct word when describing anything while I'm sure I do get it wrong from time to time in this case I thought 'nonsense' was the right word.
Believing in anything without any sensible reason to do so, like the subject has no credible evidence to back it up, well?
ippy
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Why do many extreme fundies/Biblical literalists seem so scared of being questioned about their faith?
Recently I have been on a couple of fundie Christian forums where I quite politely questioned why their deity was described as a god of love, and received the bum's rush very quickly. ;D
Perhaps you could quote the way in which you 'politely' asked your question.
I suspect if instead of blindly accepting it all as true, they allowed a question or two to creep in, they might find that their belief lacked any substance!
The more questions I and others ask, Floo, the more substance I find in mine.
I also suspect that a lot of fundies hang onto their faith as a form of fire insurance as they are terrified of the consequences if they kick it into touch! I think that applies to a few posters on this forum as well.
Do you have any evidence for that suggestion? I have certainly met a few atheists whose arguments would suggest that they would fit your description - so, as we are all human, there are probably some religious people who do as well.
Floo I think it is good you ask questions so you tell us the fundies run away,maybe they do not know for example I ask Hope a question about 3 days ago and am still waiting.
Keep asking the questions floo we all learn by asking questions.I know you have nightmares about hell mourn him today floo don't wait.
~TW~
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Why do many extreme fundies/Biblical literalists seem so scared of being questioned about their faith?
Recently I have been on a couple of fundie Christian forums where I quite politely questioned why their deity was described as a god of love, and received the bum's rush very quickly. ;D
Perhaps you could quote the way in which you 'politely' asked your question.
I suspect if instead of blindly accepting it all as true, they allowed a question or two to creep in, they might find that their belief lacked any substance!
The more questions I and others ask, Floo, the more substance I find in mine.
I also suspect that a lot of fundies hang onto their faith as a form of fire insurance as they are terrified of the consequences if they kick it into touch! I think that applies to a few posters on this forum as well.
Do you have any evidence for that suggestion? I have certainly met a few atheists whose arguments would suggest that they would fit your description - so, as we are all human, there are probably some religious people who do as well.
Floo I think it is good you ask questions so you tell us the fundies run away,maybe they do not know for example I ask Hope a question about 3 days ago and am still waiting.
Keep asking the questions floo we all learn by asking questions.I know you have nightmares about hell mourn him today floo don't wait.
~TW~
You are a LIAR, >:( I certainly DON'T have nightmares about hell since I lost my faith. I had nightmares as a child about it! Describing the tortures a mythical hell to a kid is emotional abuse, and should be illegal, imo.!
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Floo I think it is good you ask questions so you tell us the fundies run away,maybe they do not know for example I ask Hope a question about 3 days ago and am still waiting.
Oh, I can beat that by months.
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Hope, you can't answer the question I put on those two forums, you always fudge it!
The problem is that often what you call 'questions' are unsubstantiated statements, and often that is then complicated by the fact that you use terminology that is, at the best, ambiguous.
WHY IS THE DEITY CALLED A GOD OF LOVE? Is that ambiguous? ::)
Because if you don't love him, he will condemn you to an eternity of torment.
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Hope, you can't answer the question I put on those two forums, you always fudge it!
The problem is that often what you call 'questions' are unsubstantiated statements, and often that is then complicated by the fact that you use terminology that is, at the best, ambiguous.
How strange as that's EXACTLY what I find with soooo many theists on these very boards ?!!?!?!?
Unsubstantiated statements ??!?!? That's what religion's all about, no???
Certainly with the three Abrahamic hodgepodges.
Nick
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Why do many extreme fundies/Biblical literalists seem so scared of being questioned about their faith?
Recently I have been on a couple of fundie Christian forums where I quite politely questioned why their deity was described as a god of love, and received the bum's rush very quickly. ;D
Perhaps you could quote the way in which you 'politely' asked your question.
I suspect if instead of blindly accepting it all as true, they allowed a question or two to creep in, they might find that their belief lacked any substance!
The more questions I and others ask, Floo, the more substance I find in mine.
I also suspect that a lot of fundies hang onto their faith as a form of fire insurance as they are terrified of the consequences if they kick it into touch! I think that applies to a few posters on this forum as well.
Do you have any evidence for that suggestion? I have certainly met a few atheists whose arguments would suggest that they would fit your description - so, as we are all human, there are probably some religious people who do as well.
Floo I think it is good you ask questions so you tell us the fundies run away,maybe they do not know for example I ask Hope a question about 3 days ago and am still waiting.
Keep asking the questions floo we all learn by asking questions.I know you have nightmares about hell mourn him today floo don't wait.
~TW~
"we all learn by asking questions". What happened in your case Just as a precaution I've got my tin hat on.
ippy
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Why do many extreme fundies/Biblical literalists seem so scared of being questioned about their faith?
Recently I have been on a couple of fundie Christian forums where I quite politely questioned why their deity was described as a god of love, and received the bum's rush very quickly. ;D
Perhaps you could quote the way in which you 'politely' asked your question.
I suspect if instead of blindly accepting it all as true, they allowed a question or two to creep in, they might find that their belief lacked any substance!
The more questions I and others ask, Floo, the more substance I find in mine.
I also suspect that a lot of fundies hang onto their faith as a form of fire insurance as they are terrified of the consequences if they kick it into touch! I think that applies to a few posters on this forum as well.
Do you have any evidence for that suggestion? I have certainly met a few atheists whose arguments would suggest that they would fit your description - so, as we are all human, there are probably some religious people who do as well.
Floo I think it is good you ask questions so you tell us the fundies run away,maybe they do not know for example I ask Hope a question about 3 days ago and am still waiting.
Keep asking the questions floo we all learn by asking questions.I know you have nightmares about hell mourn him today floo don't wait.
~TW~
You are a LIAR, >:( I certainly DON'T have nightmares about hell since I lost my faith. I had nightmares as a child about it! Describing the tortures a mythical hell to a kid is emotional abuse, and should be illegal, imo.!
Well it is deep in your mind nagging at you 24/7 every post you make as a hint of it.
~TW~
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Why do many extreme fundies/Biblical literalists seem so scared of being questioned about their faith?
Recently I have been on a couple of fundie Christian forums where I quite politely questioned why their deity was described as a god of love, and received the bum's rush very quickly. ;D
Perhaps you could quote the way in which you 'politely' asked your question.
I suspect if instead of blindly accepting it all as true, they allowed a question or two to creep in, they might find that their belief lacked any substance!
The more questions I and others ask, Floo, the more substance I find in mine.
I also suspect that a lot of fundies hang onto their faith as a form of fire insurance as they are terrified of the consequences if they kick it into touch! I think that applies to a few posters on this forum as well.
Do you have any evidence for that suggestion? I have certainly met a few atheists whose arguments would suggest that they would fit your description - so, as we are all human, there are probably some religious people who do as well.
Floo I think it is good you ask questions so you tell us the fundies run away,maybe they do not know for example I ask Hope a question about 3 days ago and am still waiting.
Keep asking the questions floo we all learn by asking questions.I know you have nightmares about hell mourn him today floo don't wait.
~TW~
"we all learn by asking questions". What happened in your case Just as a precaution I've got my tin hat on.
ippy
I would get measured for an asbestos suit if I were you,make sure it's good quality get one for floo as well.
~TW~
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Why do many extreme fundies/Biblical literalists seem so scared of being questioned about their faith?
Recently I have been on a couple of fundie Christian forums where I quite politely questioned why their deity was described as a god of love, and received the bum's rush very quickly. ;D
Perhaps you could quote the way in which you 'politely' asked your question.
I suspect if instead of blindly accepting it all as true, they allowed a question or two to creep in, they might find that their belief lacked any substance!
The more questions I and others ask, Floo, the more substance I find in mine.
I also suspect that a lot of fundies hang onto their faith as a form of fire insurance as they are terrified of the consequences if they kick it into touch! I think that applies to a few posters on this forum as well.
Do you have any evidence for that suggestion? I have certainly met a few atheists whose arguments would suggest that they would fit your description - so, as we are all human, there are probably some religious people who do as well.
Floo I think it is good you ask questions so you tell us the fundies run away,maybe they do not know for example I ask Hope a question about 3 days ago and am still waiting.
Keep asking the questions floo we all learn by asking questions.I know you have nightmares about hell mourn him today floo don't wait.
~TW~
"we all learn by asking questions". What happened in your case Just as a precaution I've got my tin hat on.
ippy
I would get measured for an asbestos suit if I were you,make sure it's good quality get one for floo as well.
~TW~
What and take the risk of asbestosis.
ippy
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...for example I ask Hope a question about 3 days ago and am still waiting.
As you know TW, I'm not on here all the time, so I don't always keep up with new posts on the various threads. Perhaps you could tell me which post you asked me a question in, and I'll see if I can answer it.
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How strange as that's EXACTLY what I find with soooo many theists on these very boards ?!!?!?!?
Unsubstantiated statements ??!?!? That's what religion's all about, no???
Certainly with the three Abrahamic hodgepodges.
Nick
I'd even go as far as to say that, with the exception of really simple Q&As, such as how do I solve a problem on my computer, or what is your opinion on ... most posts on here are unsubstantiated statements. For all the apparent logic and rationality of issues to do with science, everything is largely based on fundamental assumptions by human beings with tendencies to confirmation bias about the nature of 'life, the universe and everything'. For all the claims that scientists, and their supporters here make, there is absolutely no definitive evidence for any of the more complex, scientifically 'proven' ideas that have been doing the rounds since the early 20th century. They are all predicated on initial human assumptions that haven't been removed from the calculations.
As such, they are no more or less reliable than religious ideas.
The likes of ippy, Shakes and Len are determined that science should be society's guiding light - which of course makes for a constantly changing context for society as scientific truths change, albeit fairly slowly in most cases.
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How strange as that's EXACTLY what I find with soooo many theists on these very boards ?!!?!?!?
Unsubstantiated statements ??!?!? That's what religion's all about, no???
Certainly with the three Abrahamic hodgepodges.
Nick
I'd even go as far as to say that, with the exception of really simple Q&As, such as how do I solve a problem on my computer, or what is your opinion on ... most posts on here are unsubstantiated statements. For all the apparent logic and rationality of issues to do with science, everything is largely based on fundamental assumptions by human beings with tendencies to confirmation bias about the nature of 'life, the universe and everything'. For all the claims that scientists, and their supporters here make, there is absolutely no definitive evidence for any of the more complex, scientifically 'proven' ideas that have been doing the rounds since the early 20th century. They are all predicated on initial human assumptions that haven't been removed from the calculations.
As such, they are no more or less reliable than religious ideas.
The likes of ippy, Shakes and Len are determined that science should be society's guiding light - which of course makes for a constantly changing context for society as scientific truths change, albeit fairly slowly in most cases.
If science hadn't changed as ideas were challenged, researched and experience dictated ... we would be believing all sorts of stupid things about tsunamis, volcanoes, earthquakes etc.
A bit like 2000 year old ideas about a bunch of Middle Eastern peasants' beliefs.
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...for example I ask Hope a question about 3 days ago and am still waiting.
As you know TW, I'm not on here all the time, so I don't always keep up with new posts on the various threads. Perhaps you could tell me which post you asked me a question in, and I'll see if I can answer it.
faith sharing
~TW~
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I'd even go as far as to say that, with the exception of really simple Q&As, such as how do I solve a problem on my computer, or what is your opinion on ... most posts on here are unsubstantiated statements.
Which is funny - oh, sorry; did I say funny? Apologies; I actually meant monumentally hypocritical - given that it's now some months that:
(1) Gordon, Rhiannon and I have been waiting for your "good reasons" that "homosexuality has been viewed with revulsion through history and across cultures," a point for which you claim to have made two A4 pages of notes many weeks ago,
and I specifically have been waiting for the substantiation of the charge that
(2) I have deployed the negative proof fallacy/argument from ignorance/appeal to ignorance anywhere at all, ever, even once and not just more than you as you have asserted
to name just two of the most immediately memorable examples of the umpteen unsubstantiated assertions you've made on this forum. Details available on request.
For all the apparent logic and rationality of issues to do with science, everything is largely based on fundamental assumptions by human beings with tendencies to confirmation bias about the nature of 'life, the universe and everything'.
Actually science is the best thing we have for weeding out confirmation bias. If you knew anything about science as you so regularly claim (an unfunny joke in itself) you would have known this already.
For all the claims that scientists, and their supporters here make, there is absolutely no definitive evidence for any of the more complex, scientifically 'proven' ideas that have been doing the rounds since the early 20th century. They are all predicated on initial human assumptions that haven't been removed from the calculations.
Are you going to provide examples this time specifically and explicitly of those things you're alluding to, or just cause another draught by waving your hands aimlessly around again?
As such, they are no more or less reliable than religious ideas.
This is one of those statements so divorced from reality that it entails that the one who makes it can only be a colossal fool or a colossal liar, with no other option. Science is reliable because of the self-policing methodology that underpins it. How's that methodology for your claims about reality coming along? You know, the one that you've been asked about innumerable times and which you've signally failed to provide each and every single time. Any sign of it yet?
The likes of ippy, Shakes and Len are determined that science should be society's guiding light - which of course makes for a constantly changing context for society as scientific truths change, albeit fairly slowly in most cases.
And what's your issue with change?
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...for example I ask Hope a question about 3 days ago and am still waiting.
As you know TW, I'm not on here all the time, so I don't always keep up with new posts on the various threads. Perhaps you could tell me which post you asked me a question in, and I'll see if I can answer it.
I asked you questions with regard to backing up assertions you made months ago, which you have consistenty ignored ever since. Why should ~TW~ fare any better?
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Hope, you can't answer the question I put on those two forums, you always fudge it!
The problem is that often what you call 'questions' are unsubstantiated statements, and often that is then complicated by the fact that you use terminology that is, at the best, ambiguous.
There could be false premise in the question but it is not an unsubstantiated statement.
English teacher my arse.
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Good OP, Floo! I have been having a somewhat similar experience this last week or so. There was that video link posted here of an interview with Jerry Coyne, so I posed the question, 'What do theologians know, really know, about God? on SofF. Mostly the responses concentrated on the first part of the question, and I did not put the second part in the title, so it's partly my fault, I suppose, but it has run to 202 posts so far!! You will not be surprised to hear that the number of facts about God remains firmly at zero!
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There could be false premise in the question but it is not an unsubstantiated statement.
English teacher my arse.
And which question are you referring to, jaks. Your second phrase therefore shows how lacking in judgement you are.
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Hope, you can't answer the question I put on those two forums, you always fudge it!
The problem is that often what you call 'questions' are unsubstantiated statements, and often that is then complicated by the fact that you use terminology that is, at the best, ambiguous.
WHY IS THE DEITY CALLED A GOD OF LOVE? Is that ambiguous? ::)
You still haven't had a reply, so I'll hazard a guess that it is based upon a Jesus saying: 'Just as God causes the sun to shine and the rain to fall on all no matter whether considered good or bad, so should you express your love to enemies as well as friends'. It is an indiscriminate 'love' and not based upon punishment for misdemeanours.
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Hope, you can't answer the question I put on those two forums, you always fudge it!
The problem is that often what you call 'questions' are unsubstantiated statements, and often that is then complicated by the fact that you use terminology that is, at the best, ambiguous.
WHY IS THE DEITY CALLED A GOD OF LOVE? Is that ambiguous? ::)
You still haven't had a reply, so I'll hazard a guess that it is based upon a Jesus saying: 'Just as God causes the sun to shine and the rain to fall on all no matter whether considered good or bad, so should you express your love to enemies as well as friends'. It is an indiscriminate 'love' and not based upon punishment for misdemeanours.
You never get a proper answer to that question, just a load of excuses for the nastiness of the deity!
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There could be false premise in the question but it is not an unsubstantiated statement.
English teacher my arse.
And which question are you referring to, jaks. Your second phrase therefore shows how lacking in judgement you are.
Coming from you I'll take that as a compliment!
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WHY IS THE DEITY CALLED A GOD OF LOVE? Is that ambiguous? ::)
The only questions of that sort I've known from you have been couched in negative terms and vitriol.
You never get a proper answer to that question, just a load of excuses for the nastiness of the deity!
Well, in view of the vitriolic phraseology that you always couch the questions in, and the obvious lack of understanding of the Bible that seems to inform the questions, the only so-called 'excuses' I've ever read are posts that are correcting your understanding.
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WHY IS THE DEITY CALLED A GOD OF LOVE? Is that ambiguous? ::)
The only questions of that sort I've known from you have been couched in negative terms and vitriol.
You never get a proper answer to that question, just a load of excuses for the nastiness of the deity!
Well, in view of the vitriolic phraseology that you always couch the questions in, and the obvious lack of understanding of the Bible that seems to inform the questions, the only so-called 'excuses' I've ever read are posts that are correcting your understanding.
The deity is portrayed as evil in the Bible if the deeds attributed to it were factual, so it isn't any wonder I am vitriolic in my description of it.
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...and the obvious lack of understanding of the Bible that seems to inform the questions...
so we can't ask questions about god without understanding the bible? ...hmm there are many Christians that say one can't understand the Bible until one establishes a relationship with god.
That's the problem with circles Hope, just when you think you're getting somewhere you find yourself right back at the beginning again
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so we can't ask questions about god without understanding the bible?
Not so, Samuel. What I was pointing out is the way that Floo imposes specific ideas and meanings on the Bible and then effectively asks Christians here to defend those meanings, even though most Christians don't hold to them anyway. I have no problem with questions being posed; what worries me is when they are posed in the form of a statement of fact. On a number of occasions, both here and elsewhere, I and others have had to ask Floo to either clarify what she means by a given concept, or have had to point out that mainstream Christianity doesn't interpret or understand a given passage or section of the Bible in the way she has stated that it does. Since almost all of her threads of this nature are critical of the Bible (something which, in itself, is perfectly legit.) criticising an understanding that may only be held by herself, and not by Christianity makes here criticism rather pointless.
Just about evcery time I read a passage of section of the Bible, I ask questions of it; most Christians here in the West probably do so the same. I suspect that many outside of the West do so as well.
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Hope, you can't answer the question I put on those two forums, you always fudge it!
The problem is that often what you call 'questions' are unsubstantiated statements, and often that is then complicated by the fact that you use terminology that is, at the best, ambiguous.
WHY IS THE DEITY CALLED A GOD OF LOVE? Is that ambiguous? ::)
You still haven't had a reply,
Reply #11
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Perhaps her daughter embodies a type of Christianity she approves of.
Said daughter is a CofE cleric, if I remember correctly from what Floo has said in the past. Interestingly, as Floo has made very plain to the likes of Jim and several others, she is happy with the attitude that her daughter has - an attitude that I suspect mirrors the attitudes of most of the Christians here.
It would be interesting to explore what aspects Floo respects.
It most cases, it seems to be those aspects that are least like those she grew up with.
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WHY IS THE DEITY CALLED A GOD OF LOVE? Is that ambiguous? ::)
I've been looking back at the various places that you have posted anything remotely like a question like that, Floo, both here and elsewhere and have been unable to find a single post in which you have posed as straight-forward a question as this. It is always couched in terms of 'If God/the deity is a loving God, why does he/it allow x or y?' In pretty well every case, someone like Jim, or Alan or I have responded basically pointing out that a God of love allows things to happen - be they earthquakes, floods, other forms of natural disaster, illness, etc, and the suffering that goes with them - because some of these are natural events which we, as a human race, rely on for our continued existence, whilst others are 'unnatural' events resulting from choices that some humans have decided to make and which inevitably impact on others. Then, there are instances - rather like the case of the recent Shoreham air disaster - which seem to make no sense but still occur, often without a real 'culprit' to blame.
Rather than taking those responses and trying to work through them in discussion, there have been a lot of occasions when you have started a fresh thread posing almost exactly the same question, just using slightly different language.
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WHY IS THE DEITY CALLED A GOD OF LOVE? Is that ambiguous? ::)
I've been looking back at the various places that you have posted anything remotely like a question like that, Floo, both here and elsewhere and have been unable to find a single post in which you have posed as straight-forward a question as this. It is always couched in terms of 'If God/the deity is a loving God, why does he/it allow x or y?' In pretty well every case, someone like Jim, or Alan or I have responded basically pointing out that a God of love allows things to happen - be they earthquakes, floods, other forms of natural disaster, illness, etc, and the suffering that goes with them - because some of these are natural events which we, as a human race, rely on for our continued existence, whilst others are 'unnatural' events resulting from choices that some humans have decided to make and which inevitably impact on others. Then, there are instances - rather like the case of the recent Shoreham air disaster - which seem to make no sense but still occur, often without a real 'culprit' to blame.
I have asked on many occasions why that evil entity in the sky is called a god of love, when its deeds give the lie to it being loving? ::)
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I have asked on many occasions why that evil entity in the sky is called a god of love, when its deeds give the lie to it being loving? ::)
Precisely, Floo, you have asked a question in the form of a pre-determined assumption. That is why the question is ambiguous, because - as others have explained to you - your examples of the deeds that 'give the lie to it being loving' are either based on a misunderstanding or misrepresentation of the passage you are using or are based on the consequences of human action which - as you yourself have stated often enough - said actor(s) have to accept the consequences of.
Your multiple threads about why a God of love allows people to live eternity without his presence - the 'Hell/heaven' threads - seem to display a contradiction to that same attitude that we have to accept the consequences of our actions/decisions.
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In pretty well every case, someone like Jim, or Alan or I have responded basically pointing out that a God of love allows things to happen - be they earthquakes, floods, other forms of natural disaster, illness, etc, and the suffering that goes with them
This must be a new bizarre use of the term 'love' then.
- because some of these are natural events which we, as a human race, rely on for our continued existence
I'm not sure that the now non-existence of the countless victims of major earthquakes, floods, droughts etc support this perverse view you have.
whilst others are 'unnatural' events resulting from choices that some humans have decided to make and which inevitably impact on others. Then, there are instances - rather like the case of the recent Shoreham air disaster - which seem to make no sense but still occur, often without a real 'culprit' to blame.
All our own fault of course, but no doubt this too is all part of God's loving plan for his creation eh!
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WHY IS THE DEITY CALLED A GOD OF LOVE? Is that ambiguous? ::)
I've been looking back at the various places that you have posted anything remotely like a question like that, Floo, both here and elsewhere and have been unable to find a single post in which you have posed as straight-forward a question as this. It is always couched in terms of 'If God/the deity is a loving God, why does he/it allow x or y?' In pretty well every case, someone like Jim, or Alan or I have responded basically pointing out that a God of love allows things to happen - be they earthquakes, floods, other forms of natural disaster, illness, etc, and the suffering that goes with them - because some of these are natural events which we, as a human race, rely on for our continued existence, whilst others are 'unnatural' events resulting from choices that some humans have decided to make and which inevitably impact on others. Then, there are instances - rather like the case of the recent Shoreham air disaster - which seem to make no sense but still occur, often without a real 'culprit' to blame.
In each of those threads people have explained to someone like Jim, or Alan or you that these explanations make any sense at all. e.g. How do human beings rely on earthquakes and floods for our continued existence?
That two year little boys body was found drowned on the beach recently why did your god (defined as loving and all powerful) allow such a thing to happen?
Either the god is not all powerful, doesn't exist or isn't loving.
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Why do many extreme fundies/Biblical literalists seem so scared of being questioned about their faith?
Recently I have been on a couple of fundie Christian forums where I quite politely questioned why their deity was described as a god of love, and received the bum's rush very quickly. ;D
I suspect if instead of blindly accepting it all as true, they allowed a question or two to creep in, they might find that their belief lacked any substance! I also suspect that a lot of fundies hang onto their faith as a form of fire insurance as they are terrified of the consequences if they kick it into touch! I think that applies to a few posters on this forum as well.
I suppose they know the person asking is not sincere just trying to stir a reaction as you did. But then again we have only your word that you did ask and receive that in return. Why not post it or a link... Bums rush not here...
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Perhaps her daughter embodies a type of Christianity she approves of.
Said daughter is a CofE cleric, if I remember correctly from what Floo has said in the past. Interestingly, as Floo has made very plain to the likes of Jim and several others, she is happy with the attitude that her daughter has - an attitude that I suspect mirrors the attitudes of most of the Christians here.
It would be interesting to explore what aspects Floo respects.
It most cases, it seems to be those aspects that are least like those she grew up with.
Hope I NEVER talk about my daughter's views on Christianity. I am proud however of her deeds!
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Why do many extreme fundies/Biblical literalists seem so scared of being questioned about their faith?
Recently I have been on a couple of fundie Christian forums where I quite politely questioned why their deity was described as a god of love, and received the bum's rush very quickly. ;D
I suspect if instead of blindly accepting it all as true, they allowed a question or two to creep in, they might find that their belief lacked any substance! I also suspect that a lot of fundies hang onto their faith as a form of fire insurance as they are terrified of the consequences if they kick it into touch! I think that applies to a few posters on this forum as well.
I suppose they know the person asking is not sincere just trying to stir a reaction as you did. But then again we have only your word that you did ask and receive that in return. Why not post it or a link... Bums rush not here...
I certainly got a reaction, but extremists like yourself hate being challenged, don't they! ::)
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Hope I NEVER talk about my daughter's views on Christianity. I am proud however of her deeds!
Sorry, Floo, you have certainly stated what branch of Christianity your daughter is a minister of in previous posts (though I'm not sure whether that was here or on Faithspace), and you have certainly stated here that you are happy with her attitude (after all, deeds are reflections of attitude).
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Hope I NEVER talk about my daughter's views on Christianity. I am proud however of her deeds!
Sorry, Floo, you have certainly stated what branch of Christianity your daughter is a minister of in previous posts (though I'm not sure whether that was here or on Faithspace), and you have certainly stated here that you are happy with her attitude (after all, deeds are reflections of attitude).
My daughter is an Anglican Priest, I have stated that many times, but I don't talk about her take on the faith, which would be wrong.
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In each of those threads people have explained to someone like Jim, or Alan or you that these explanations make any sense at all. e.g. How do human beings rely on earthquakes and floods for our continued existence?
I assume that you are trying to tell me that other people like yourself have felt that they have had to explain to us why such natural disasters are important for our continued existence. If that is the case, I'd disagree with your claim. I was taught at school that natural 'disasters' where often related to the earth 'regenerating' itself. For instance, earthquakes are related to plate movements that can themselves be related to the creation of new material - either underground or under the sea.
That two year little boys body was found drowned on the beach recently why did your god (defined as loving and all powerful) allow such a thing to happen?
Are you saying that those who forced that family out of its home, or the people smugglers who ripped the family off and placed them in inadequate transport, shouldn't have to face the consequences of their actions?
Either the god is not all powerful, doesn't exist or isn't loving.
Or god accepts that s/he can't override the free will that individuals and groups choose to practice regardless of its consequences to other humans. Is that what you would rather see?
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...but I don't talk about her take on the faith, which would be wrong.
But you do, often directly, by contrasting her to Christians you regard as fundamentalists or whatever.
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...but I don't talk about her take on the faith, which would be wrong.
But you do, often directly, by contrasting her to Christians you regard as fundamentalists or whatever.
In what way?
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I assume that you are trying to tell me that other people like yourself have felt that they have had to explain to us why such natural disasters are important for our continued existence. If that is the case, I'd disagree with your claim.
No I have never tried to explain why natural disasters are important for our continued existence.
You did though:-
earthquakes, floods, other forms of natural disaster, illness, etc, and the suffering that goes with them - because some of these are natural events which we, as a human race, rely on for our continued existence,
I was taught at school that natural 'disasters' where often related to the earth 'regenerating' itself. For instance, earthquakes are related to plate movements that can themselves be related to the creation of new material - either underground or under the sea.
I was never taught that.
Are you saying that those who forced that family out of its home, or the people smugglers who ripped the family off and placed them in inadequate transport, shouldn't have to face the consequences of their actions?
Nope.
Or god accepts that s/he can't override the free will that individuals and groups choose to practice regardless of its consequences to other humans. Is that what you would rather see?
So if you saw a two year old boy drowning would you do nothing, shrug your shoulders and walk away?
If you were to I would suggest you were not loving but evil and culpable for his death, since you defined god as everywhere I fail to see how it escapes culpability.
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I keep seeing this bullshit crop up - playing fast and loose with what free will is. Take free will as given, my little girl has been whining for candy floss all afternoon - she wants candy floss. She has chosen using her "free will" that she wants candy floss as opposed to not wanting candy floss, and I have no control over that choice. However, I have managed to physically stop her from having candy floss, regardless of her free choice to want it.
If you're going to state that the all powerful god can create all the physical stuff, intervene in it as and when - from raising dead people to helping find car keys, then hell yeah he should be able to stop my little girl from physically having candy floss even when she has freely chose to want it. Same goes for the paedophile priest who has freely chosen to rape little boys.
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I assume that you are trying to tell me that other people like yourself have felt that they have had to explain to us why such natural disasters are important for our continued existence. If that is the case, I'd disagree with your claim.
No I have never tried to explain why natural disasters are important for our continued existence.
Oddly enough I didn't say that you had; I said that perhaps that you felt as if you ought to.
I was taught at school that natural 'disasters' where often related to the earth 'regenerating' itself. For instance, earthquakes are related to plate movements that can themselves be related to the creation of new material - either underground or under the sea.
I was never taught that.
I'm sorry to hear that. You can easily read up on the same thing on the 'net.
So if you saw a two year old boy drowning would you do nothing, shrug your shoulders and walk away?
This shows the hypocrisy of your viewpoint. If the reports I've been hearing on the news recently are to be believed, some half a million people have entered Europe 'illegally' since the beginning of this year - and perhaps as many as a further 30% of that number have died in the attempt. You question whether a deity who is called a God of love can shrug its shoulders and walk away (something that I don't believe that he has done, by the way) yet ignore that fact that for much of the last 9 months this is exactly what the very thing you believe can rescue us - humanity itself - has been doing. Is it not humanity who have been packing these would be migrants into overcrowded boats, taking in some cases 4-figure sums of money to do so?
Are you really so callous that you couldn't care less about those who we have heard about on a daily basis over the summer, let alone the 4+ million who have fled Syria to refugee camps in neighbouring countries over the last 4 or 5 years.
Where has humanity been in any serious attempts to resolve the situation since it started 5 years ago. Apart from bombings and drone strikes, has anything of any real value been done?
If you were to I would suggest you were not loving but evil and culpable for his death, since you defined god as everywhere I fail to see how it escapes culpability.
Another example of your hypocrisy. You want a deity who will act on and in situations which you regard as unacceptable, yet you refuse to allow that he can act on and in situations where his involvement would be irrational, illogical and supernatural.
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I keep seeing this bullshit crop up - playing fast and loose with what free will is.
And the point of that little rant was ... ?
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In what way?
You often make it very clear by the context of such posts that you have a relative within the hierarchy of the church whose approach to things, such as the matter of conversion, is more acceptable to you than that of some other Christians' approach. As I think Jim pointed out to you once, that relative's approach to said topic is probably no different to that of myself, Jim or other Christians here and in the mainstream of Christianity.
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I keep seeing this bullshit crop up - playing fast and loose with what free will is.
And the point of that little rant was ... ?
Try reading the rest and then respond, preferably this time without trying to poison the well.
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Try reading the rest...
I did that when I first saw the post, Andy, and that is why I asked the question I did.
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Oddly enough I didn't say that you had; I said that perhaps that you felt as if you ought to.
It is odd since you said:-
earthquakes, floods, other forms of natural disaster, illness, etc, and the suffering that goes with them - because some of these are natural events which we, as a human race, rely on for our continued existence,
I'm sorry to hear that. You can easily read up on the same thing on the 'net.
I don't think my education was at that low a level.
This shows the hypocrisy of your viewpoint. If the reports I've been hearing on the news recently are to be believed, some half a million people have entered Europe 'illegally' since the beginning of this year - and perhaps as many as a further 30% of that number have died in the attempt. You question whether a deity who is called a God of love can shrug its shoulders and walk away (something that I don't believe that he has done, by the way) yet ignore that fact that for much of the last 9 months this is exactly what the very thing you believe can rescue us - humanity itself - has been doing. Is it not humanity who have been packing these would be migrants into overcrowded boats, taking in some cases 4-figure sums of money to do so?
I don't think you answered my question 'So if you saw a two year old boy drowning would you do nothing, shrug your shoulders and walk away?'
Are you really so callous that you couldn't care less about those who we have heard about on a daily basis over the summer, let alone the 4+ million who have fled Syria to refugee camps in neighbouring countries over the last 4 or 5 years.
I do care about these people and you pathetic little attempt to suggest otherwise is noted.
Where has humanity been in any serious attempts to resolve the situation since it started 5 years ago. Apart from bombings and drone strikes, has anything of any real value been done?
Yes. yes, look over there, hysterical hand waving, pointing of fingers and much rubbing of hands, still doesn't address why, when the little 2 year old boy was drowning your god did nothing to save him.
Another example of your hypocrisy. You want a deity who will act on and in situations which you regard as unacceptable, yet you refuse to allow that he can act on and in situations where his involvement would be irrational, illogical and supernatural.
Bless, no Hoppity I just want him to save a two year old boy from drowning, if this god of yours or couldn't or wouldn't then it is either does not exist or is not all powerful and loving.
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If the reports I've been hearing on the news recently are to be believed, some half a million people have entered Europe 'illegally' since the beginning of this year - and perhaps as many as a further 30% of that number have died in the attempt. You question whether a deity who is called a God of love can shrug its shoulders and walk away (something that I don't believe that he has done, by the way) yet ignore that fact that for much of the last 9 months this is exactly what the very thing you believe can rescue us - humanity itself - has been doing. Is it not humanity who have been packing these would be migrants into overcrowded boats, taking in some cases 4-figure sums of money to do so?
This is another of your bizarre tu quoque like arguments: because people bugger things up then we can excuse your God of doing the same despite your God, presumably, having the capacity to do better than people. Pull the other one!
Are you really so callous that you couldn't care less about those who we have heard about on a daily basis over the summer, let alone the 4+ million who have fled Syria to refugee camps in neighbouring countries over the last 4 or 5 years.
Your God clearly is callous, being conspicuous by its absence.
Where has humanity been in any serious attempts to resolve the situation since it started 5 years ago. Apart from bombings and drone strikes, has anything of any real value been done?
By the same token, where has your God been?
You want a deity who will act on and in situations which you regard as unacceptable, yet you refuse to allow that he can act on and in situations where his involvement would be irrational, illogical and supernatural.
What we get though is a deity who reportedly did some parlour tricks back in antiquity, as is claimed and believed by the highly credulous, but is otherwise ineffective in any useful or meaningful way: there may as well be no God at all, which seems to be the case on any rational basis.
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Try reading the rest...
I did that when I first saw the post, Andy, and that is why I asked the question I did.
I thought it was obvious. You said god can't override someone's choice to act. I'm saying that is bollocks based on other beliefs.
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Your God clearly is callous, being conspicuous by its absence.
By the same token, where has your God been?
I can think of a number of Christian organisations who have been working in the refugee camps and behind the political scenes to try to bring people together in the region.
What we get though is a deity who reportedly did some parlour tricks back in antiquity, as is claimed and believed by the highly credulous, but is otherwise ineffective in any useful or meaningful way: there may as well be no God at all, which seems to be the case on any rational basis.
Sorry to disappoint you, Gordon, what we actually get is a God who, through the agency of his believers have been involved in a numer of programmes and projects in the region for everal years.
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I thought it was obvious. You said god can't override someone's choice to act.
I didn't say that he 'can't override': what I said is that he accepts that he can't - in other words, he chooses to allow their free choices to stand.
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I don't think you answered my question 'So if you saw a two year old boy drowning would you do nothing, shrug your shoulders and walk away?'
I didn't botyer answering it because it clearly wasn't aimed at me, but was simply another way of dissing God and Christianity. When you appreciate how much work a number of Christian organisatons have put into the region over the years, I don't thik you would be so glib.
Thankfully, I've never been in the particular situation you posited, but I've been in comparable ones and helped as best I could.
... pathetic little attempt to suggest otherwise is noted.
See above
Yes. yes, look over there, hysterical hand waving, pointing of fingers and much rubbing of hands, still doesn't address why, when the little 2 year old boy was drowning your god did nothing to save him.
We don't actually know whether there were attempts to save him and his brother. For instance, did anyone try to talk his parents out of paying the smugglers, or out of getting into the boat? Did anyone offer a safer way to safety? You have no idea what had happened in the preceding days, weeks, months.
Bless, no Hoppity I just want him to save a two year old boy from drowning, if this god of yours or couldn't or wouldn't then it is either does not exist or is not all powerful and loving.
So, you want a God who does your will, and who works in ways that you feel are appropriate. As I say - we simply don't know what efforts had already been made to save that boy.
Remember too, that if God had intervened to save him, would you actually have known? How many other children have been saved from drowning by God's intervention?
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I thought it was obvious. You said god can't override someone's choice to act.
I didn't say that he 'can't override':
Or god accepts that s/he can't override the free will that individuals and groups choose to practice regardless of its consequences to other humans. Is that what you would rather see?
There, in black and white.
what I said is that he accepts that he can't - in other words, he chooses to allow their free choices to stand.
No, that's the sound of peddles whizzing in reverse. I'm thinking an English teacher should know the difference between "can't" and "won't".
And I don't see how this is supposed to paint this god in a better light because it makes him look monumentally worse. No, it's not that he can't interfere in the acted out free choices of paedophile rapists, it's that he chooses not to and sod the free choices of those children who don't wish to be abused.
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I didn't botyer answering it because it clearly wasn't aimed at me, but was simply another way of dissing God and Christianity. When you appreciate how much work a number of Christian organisatons have put into the region over the years, I don't thik you would be so glib.
Thankfully, I've never been in the particular situation you posited, but I've been in comparable ones and helped as best I could.
It was aimed at you thanks for answering, you can spare yourself the lecture on being glib. In future if I'm quoting you directly and post a sentence with a question mark at the end then I think you can safely assume a question is being directed at you.
We don't actually know whether there were attempts to save him and his brother. For instance, did anyone try to talk his parents out of paying the smugglers, or out of getting into the boat? Did anyone offer a safer way to safety? You have no idea what had happened in the preceding days, weeks, months.
Yet the boy is dead, your god didn't save him.
So, you want a God who does your will, and who works in ways that you feel are appropriate. As I say - we simply don't know what efforts had already been made to save that boy.
No Hoppity I just want it to save a two year old boy from drowning, if this god of yours or couldn't or wouldn't then it either does not exist or is not all powerful and loving.
Remember too, that if God had intervened to save him, would you actually have known? How many other children have been saved from drowning by God's intervention?
Are you suggesting this is one that escaped by unnoticed?
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Your God clearly is callous, being conspicuous by its absence.
By the same token, where has your God been?
I can think of a number of Christian organisations who have been working in the refugee camps and behind the political scenes to try to bring people together in the region.
What we get though is a deity who reportedly did some parlour tricks back in antiquity, as is claimed and believed by the highly credulous, but is otherwise ineffective in any useful or meaningful way: there may as well be no God at all, which seems to be the case on any rational basis.
Sorry to disappoint you, Gordon, what we actually get is a God who, through the agency of his believers have been involved in a numer of programmes and projects in the region for everal years.
So, based on what you cite here, what you mention as being divine intervention from your God is just altruistic people doing stuff: in essence your God is doing no more than what people are capable of doing themselves despite, as you have often asserted before, your God being powerful enough to create and sustain a whole universe.
Moreover, since there are other altruistic groups of people helping their fellow humans but who aren't doing so in the name of Christianity this makes your God claim redundant since it is clear that people do exhibit altruism without reference to the Christian God.
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Sorry to disappoint you, Gordon, what we actually get is a God who, through the agency of his believers have been involved in a numer of programmes and projects in the region for everal years.
Is the Mohammedan belief of God validated by the existence of muslim aid agencies ?
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Your God clearly is callous, being conspicuous by its absence.
By the same token, where has your God been?
I can think of a number of Christian organisations who have been working in the refugee camps and behind the political scenes to try to bring people together in the region.
What we get though is a deity who reportedly did some parlour tricks back in antiquity, as is claimed and believed by the highly credulous, but is otherwise ineffective in any useful or meaningful way: there may as well be no God at all, which seems to be the case on any rational basis.
Sorry to disappoint you, Gordon, what we actually get is a God who, through the agency of his believers have been involved in a numer of programmes and projects in the region for everal years.
And your proof of that is? ::)
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Why do many extreme fundies/Biblical literalists seem so scared of being questioned about their faith?
Recently I have been on a couple of fundie Christian forums where I quite politely questioned why their deity was described as a god of love, and received the bum's rush very quickly. ;D
I suspect if instead of blindly accepting it all as true, they allowed a question or two to creep in, they might find that their belief lacked any substance! I also suspect that a lot of fundies hang onto their faith as a form of fire insurance as they are terrified of the consequences if they kick it into touch! I think that applies to a few posters on this forum as well.
I suppose they know the person asking is not sincere just trying to stir a reaction as you did. But then again we have only your word that you did ask and receive that in return. Why not post it or a link... Bums rush not here...
I certainly got a reaction, but extremists like yourself hate being challenged, don't they! ::)
I think it is fair to say you are more challenged than a challenger.
As for myself there is nothing extreme but your accusations are extreme they have not substance to them...
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Why do many extreme fundies/Biblical literalists seem so scared of being questioned about their faith?
Recently I have been on a couple of fundie Christian forums where I quite politely questioned why their deity was described as a god of love, and received the bum's rush very quickly. ;D
I suspect if instead of blindly accepting it all as true, they allowed a question or two to creep in, they might find that their belief lacked any substance! I also suspect that a lot of fundies hang onto their faith as a form of fire insurance as they are terrified of the consequences if they kick it into touch! I think that applies to a few posters on this forum as well.
I suppose they know the person asking is not sincere just trying to stir a reaction as you did. But then again we have only your word that you did ask and receive that in return. Why not post it or a link... Bums rush not here...
I certainly got a reaction, but extremists like yourself hate being challenged, don't they! ::)
I think it is fair to say you are more challenged than a challenger.
As for myself there is nothing extreme but your accusations are extreme they have not substance to them...
The 'you must be saved or go to hell' exponents are extreme and then some, as they have no evidence to support that nastiness! I will always challenge that abusive cr*p!
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The 'you must be saved or go to hell' exponents are extreme and then some, as they have no evidence to support that nastiness! I will always challenge that abusive cr*p!
Is stating that one has to take the consequences of one's choices all that extreme, Floo? After all, you have regularly said that you wouldn't allow any of your own children to 'get off' the consequences of anything they did wrong.
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I agree but it's not that I feel Floo is on about.
It's the idea that a god can 'throw' a soul into burning hell-fire FOREVER ?!!?!?
We only punish once here on earth as a rule & THAT'S IT !!!
Anything more is blatant sadism & stinks of a hateful, spiteful human & not a creature ABOVE all this !!!
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As a parent my view is that there is nothing that can't be resolved by talking things through, even if it takes an age to sort it. Discipline isn't about punishment, it is about teaching, understanding and demonstrating empathy, even if that also involves consequences that aren't comfortable.
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The 'you must be saved or go to hell' exponents are extreme and then some, as they have no evidence to support that nastiness! I will always challenge that abusive cr*p!
Is stating that one has to take the consequences of one's choices all that extreme, Floo? After all, you have regularly said that you wouldn't allow any of your own children to 'get off' the consequences of anything they did wrong.
OK if wrong doing should be punished, then it stands to reason that the deity should be punished for all the despicable deeds the Bible claims it committed!
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As a parent my view is that there is nothing that can't be resolved by talking things through, even if it takes an age to sort it. Discipline isn't about punishment, it is about teaching, understanding and demonstrating empathy, even if that also involves consequences that aren't comfortable.
I think discipline where kids are concerned does require punishment from time to time. I spanked my children from time to time if many warnings were ignored, and similarly my grandchildren with their parent's permission. More usually my children were grounded, had pocket money stopped, or made to do extra chores.
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The 'you must be saved or go to hell' exponents are extreme and then some, as they have no evidence to support that nastiness! I will always challenge that abusive cr*p!
Is stating that one has to take the consequences of one's choices all that extreme, Floo? After all, you have regularly said that you wouldn't allow any of your own children to 'get off' the consequences of anything they did wrong.
Which might be a fine point if you had convincing evidence that the consequences are anything more than a fairy tale.
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Hope, you can't answer the question I put on those two forums, you always fudge it!
The problem is that often what you call 'questions' are unsubstantiated statements, and often that is then complicated by the fact that you use terminology that is, at the best, ambiguous.
WHY IS THE DEITY CALLED A GOD OF LOVE? Is that ambiguous? ::)
He is called a God of love because when we were still sinners Christ died for us. He is called a God of Love because he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believes in him will not perish but will have eternal life. He is called a God of love because He loves us. Each and every one of us. Even me. There are plenty more reasons but those are enough for me
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MMM
'Christianity' creates the crime & gives us the punishment-fine-wayout too...
Very clever ?!!?!? NOT !!!!
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Hope, you can't answer the question I put on those two forums, you always fudge it!
The problem is that often what you call 'questions' are unsubstantiated statements, and often that is then complicated by the fact that you use terminology that is, at the best, ambiguous.
WHY IS THE DEITY CALLED A GOD OF LOVE? Is that ambiguous? ::)
He is called a God of love because when we were still sinners Christ died for us. He is called a God of Love because he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believes in him will not perish but will have eternal life. He is called a God of love because He loves us. Each and every one of us. Even me. There are plenty more reasons but those are enough for me
Sinners? My gosh not one human is as evil as the deity depicted in the Bible, even the worst of us! What sort of evil b*stard would get a virgin pregnant and then have her son die in such a horrible way, only a very evil entity!
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Quite.
And just how much of this has been previously agreed upon. ;) ??? ::)
Doesn't seem very well thought out this. Now It DOES sound like some half-baked idea a HUMAN or HUMANS might try to fool people with... however ?!!?!?
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Quite.
And just how much of this has been previously agreed upon. ;) ??? ::)
Doesn't seem very well thought out this. Now It DOES sound like some half-baked idea a HUMAN or HUMANS might try to fool people with... however ?!!?!?
Of course it is! What would an all-powerful, know-everything, god be at all interested in whether anyone believed in him, why should he!
An organisation that needed to keep ordinary people down, while they themselves lived in palaces, had every reason to need the peasants to believe in this monster who'll make them suffer forever if they do the slightest thing wrong!
How Christians ever fall for this carrot and stick idea of having to 'Believe' has always been a wonder to me. It's so obvious that gods - if they want anything at all - would never want any minion like us to believe in them!
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This shows the hypocrisy of your viewpoint. If the reports I've been hearing on the news recently are to be believed, some half a million people have entered Europe 'illegally' since the beginning of this year - and perhaps as many as a further 30% of that number have died in the attempt. You question whether a deity who is called a God of love can shrug its shoulders and walk away (something that I don't believe that he has done, by the way) yet ignore that fact that for much of the last 9 months this is exactly what the very thing you believe can rescue us - humanity itself - has been doing. Is it not humanity who have been packing these would be migrants into overcrowded boats, taking in some cases 4-figure sums of money to do so?
Are you really so callous that you couldn't care less about those who we have heard about on a daily basis over the summer, let alone the 4+ million who have fled Syria to refugee camps in neighbouring countries over the last 4 or 5 years.
Where has humanity been in any serious attempts to resolve the situation since it started 5 years ago. Apart from bombings and drone strikes, has anything of any real value been done?
This is a disgusting post. Nobody has suggested that what is happening is not truly awful and it is not humans (not humanity) that is responsible.
But it is not the humans that are under discussion here, it is your alleged god of love whose actions are under examination. If your god exists and he lets 30% of all migrants to Europe drown without intervening, how is that not walking away? Your insistence that God hasn't walked away is revealed to be more hollow with every drowned body that is washed up on the shores of Europe.
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He is called a God of love because when we were still sinners Christ died for us. He is called a God of Love because he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believes in him will not perish but will have eternal life. He is called a God of love because He loves us. Each and every one of us. Even me. There are plenty more reasons but those are enough for me
He is called the god of love even though he allows refugees to drown in their thousands. He would be an arsehole if he existed.
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Quite.
And just how much of this has been previously agreed upon. ;) ??? ::)
Doesn't seem very well thought out this. Now It DOES sound like some half-baked idea a HUMAN or HUMANS might try to fool people with... however ?!!?!?
Of course it is! What would an all-powerful, know-everything, god be at all interested in whether anyone believed in him, why should he!
An organisation that needed to keep ordinary people down, while they themselves lived in palaces, had every reason to need the peasants to believe in this monster who'll make them suffer forever if they do the slightest thing wrong!
How Christians ever fall for this carrot and stick idea of having to 'Believe' has always been a wonder to me. It's so obvious that gods - if they want anything at all - would never want any minion like us to believe in them!
Well... exactly, eh ?!?!?!!?!
Why would a god 'need' belief of any kind ????
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This is a disgusting post. Nobody has suggested that what is happening is not truly awful and it is not humans (not humanity) that is responsible.
Unfortunately, that is exactly what some people seem to think if their posts are anything to go by. They want to lay all the blame on God, and effectively exonerate humanity. Your second paragraph is a good example of this. By the way, I chose the term 'humanity' on purpose because of this very point. We can't exonerate ourselves from the activities of human traffickers, fraudulent bankers, corrupt politicians, pimps and madames, etc. if humanity is the sole arbiter of right and wrong.
But it is not the humans that are under discussion here, it is your alleged god of love whose actions are under examination. If your god exists and he lets 30% of all migrants to Europe drown without intervening, how is that not walking away? Your insistence that God hasn't walked away is revealed to be more hollow with every drowned body that is washed up on the shores of Europe.
So, what do you suggest he does? Stop the naturally-occurring events whenever a boatful of migrants is dispatched from some part of the Mediterranean's shoreline? Or are you asking him to override the freewill of the smugglers and refugees, or the dictators in the very first place?
It is all very well for you to question what he does or doesn't do because you can't do anything about these natural events even if you wanted to, but it makes you feel better to be able to rant against something you don't seem to believe in.
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He is called a God of love because when we were still sinners Christ died for us. He is called a God of Love because he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believes in him will not perish but will have eternal life. He is called a God of love because He loves us. Each and every one of us. Even me. There are plenty more reasons but those are enough for me
He is called the god of love even though he allows refugees to drown in their thousands. He would be an arsehole if he existed.
An ignorant comment, laced with the usual expletive. How infantile!
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He is called the god of love even though he allows refugees to drown in their thousands.
And you have evidence for this claim?
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Why do many extreme fundies/Biblical literalists seem so scared of being questioned about their faith?
Recently I have been on a couple of fundie Christian forums where I quite politely questioned why their deity was described as a god of love, and received the bum's rush very quickly. ;D
I suspect if instead of blindly accepting it all as true, they allowed a question or two to creep in, they might find that their belief lacked any substance! I also suspect that a lot of fundies hang onto their faith as a form of fire insurance as they are terrified of the consequences if they kick it into touch! I think that applies to a few posters on this forum as well.
I suppose they know the person asking is not sincere just trying to stir a reaction as you did. But then again we have only your word that you did ask and receive that in return. Why not post it or a link... Bums rush not here...
I certainly got a reaction, but extremists like yourself hate being challenged, don't they! ::)
I think it is fair to say you are more challenged than a challenger.
As for myself there is nothing extreme but your accusations are extreme they have not substance to them...
The 'you must be saved or go to hell' exponents are extreme and then some, as they have no evidence to support that nastiness! I will always challenge that abusive cr*p!
Bring forth evidence that Christ saying you have a choice of heaven or hell is abusive Cr*p. You see your past and family is nothing to do with how Christ told the truth and his life here on earth.
Nothing nasty about Christ, his life or the things he did. Don't make this all about you because if your family did anything to you, it had absolutely nothing to do with Christ and his teachings. Just as Christ taught that we are to love regardless of everything people do to us
. Are you saying your sufferings were greater than Christs when he was mentally and physically tortured, flogged, beaten and crucified?
He had fed those masses. He has healed and comforted those people and their families doing good to all. You saying you have suffered more than Christ when all he did was good?
Stop blaming God, stop blaming the bible and start blaming the real culprits.
Because neither Christ, Christianity or God are responsible for whatever your family may have done to you. And you will never go through what Christ went through for you and everyone.
The fact is that judgement day will come and Christ dying to save you is a higher price than anything anyone will ever do to you. It was about showing love and care for you. How you choose to respond is up to you. But don't use your family as an excuse to insult God and the Christ. Because Christ suffered far more than you will ever have to suffer and he suffered so you don't have to carry that burden of hurt. Yes that is right. Whatever your family did is their own doing. And Christ died so you can be free of that burden and live a free life not one of fear.
The truth is that God and Christ love you, Floo. They love you just as you are.
Never forget that no matter how hurt you feel and let down by others. God loves you and Christ wants to remove that hurt and burden from you. They did not harm you they have only ever loved you... :'(
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Bring forth evidence that Christ saying you have a choice of heaven or hell is abusive Cr*p.
If Jesus did say that, I don't believe the guy had anymore evidence to support the statement than the fundies do today! He comes over as very human in the Bible not some sort of deity.
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I found this by a poster on another forum! It is so sad that someone should be scared not to go to church, even though they have no belief! :o
OK - I'm mid-60s. Never as I recall going to church because I wanted to. Well - - there were some times back in high school when some girl wanted me to go and I went because I was 'twiterpated' but beyond the female persuasion, never going by my choice.
I'm probably less sinful than most Christians, I just don't believe any of it. ANY OF IT!
We've moved to a smaller city and it is expected that we attend so I've been told that we're going to the local church. Wife doesn't really go to church much but thinks I'm nuts because I don't believe in Adam and Eve, the Great FLOOD or the salvation of believing. By now she of the "too bad I won't see you in Heaven" phase. I don't even like weddings or funerals.
I literally dread going. It clenches my stomach thinking I have to spend a couple of hours listening to the sermons and forking over (I don't know the going rate) 20, 30, 50 dollars a week. I will want to get in discussion with the minister (whom I've met and is very nice) or just jump up and say "this is BS!". I'll try to keep the social contacts aspect in mind but I'm really dreading it.
Arrg
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Bring forth evidence that Christ saying you have a choice of heaven or hell is abusive Cr*p.
If Jesus did say that, I don't believe the guy had anymore evidence to support the statement than the fundies do today! He comes over as very human in the Bible not some sort of deity.
Explain what was human about him raising the dead.
Explain how he fed thousands of people with a few loaves and fishes.
Explain how being human he walked on water.
Why make statements about Christ and the bible which you cannot support as being true? If Christ did not do those things by the power of God, how did he do them. I know that Christ was human but God was with him and he lived a life without sin. So show us how you reached your conclusion. :o
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Bring forth evidence that Christ saying you have a choice of heaven or hell is abusive Cr*p.
If Jesus did say that, I don't believe the guy had anymore evidence to support the statement than the fundies do today! He comes over as very human in the Bible not some sort of deity.
Explain what was human about him raising the dead.
Explain how he fed thousands of people with a few loaves and fishes.
Explain how being human he walked on water.
Why make statements about Christ and the bible which you cannot support as being true? If Christ did not do those things by the power of God, how did he do them. I know that Christ was human but God was with him and he lived a life without sin. So show us how you reached your conclusion. :o
I don't believe Jesus did any of the magic tricks attributed to him as they are not credible in the least.
If he was some sort of deity surely he would have stuck around down here after he resurrected, to prove he was who his followers thought he was, instead of going skywards!
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Hope, you can't answer the question I put on those two forums, you always fudge it!
The problem is that often what you call 'questions' are unsubstantiated statements, and often that is then complicated by the fact that you use terminology that is, at the best, ambiguous.
WHY IS THE DEITY CALLED A GOD OF LOVE? Is that ambiguous? ::)
He is called a God of love because when we were still sinners Christ died for us. He is called a God of Love because he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believes in him will not perish but will have eternal life. He is called a God of love because He loves us. Each and every one of us. Even me. There are plenty more reasons but those are enough for me
Sinners? My gosh not one human is as evil as the deity depicted in the Bible, even the worst of us! What sort of evil b*stard would get a virgin pregnant and then have her son die in such a horrible way, only a very evil
Is that that one you prayed to?
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Sinners? My gosh not one human is as evil as the deity depicted in the Bible, even the worst of us! What sort of evil b*stard would get a virgin pregnant and then have her son die in such a horrible way, only a very evil entity!
Can't you come up with anything other than this soundtrack, Floo? You've had the situation explained several times, but you obviously haven't got the message.
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Sinners? My gosh not one human is as evil as the deity depicted in the Bible, even the worst of us! What sort of evil b*stard would get a virgin pregnant and then have her son die in such a horrible way, only a very evil entity!
Can't you come up with anything other than this soundtrack, Floo? You've had the situation explained several times, but you obviously haven't got the message.
Nor have you, my dear, if you believe those fairy tales to be literally true, when there is no supporting evidence. The 'explanations', such as they are, don't make any logical sense!
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This is a disgusting post. Nobody has suggested that what is happening is not truly awful and it is not humans (not humanity) that is responsible.
Unfortunately, that is exactly what some people seem to think if their posts are anything to go by. They want to lay all the blame on God, and effectively exonerate humanity.
Who are these people? Certainly not atheists, because guess what, we don't think there is a god to blame.
But it is not the humans that are under discussion here, it is your alleged god of love whose actions are under examination. If your god exists and he lets 30% of all migrants to Europe drown without intervening, how is that not walking away? Your insistence that God hasn't walked away is revealed to be more hollow with every drowned body that is washed up on the shores of Europe.
So, what do you suggest he does?
How about saving some people from drowning. That would be a start.
I'm astonished that you have the nerve to claim that your omnipotent god is actually impotent.
Stop the naturally-occurring events whenever a boatful of migrants is dispatched from some part of the Mediterranean's shoreline? Or are you asking him to override the freewill of the smugglers and refugees, or the dictators in the very first place?
Yes why not? How much free will does a drowned two year old have? By his inaction, God destroys the free will of millions of people.
It makes you feel better to be able to rant against something you don't seem to believe in.
My criticism is directed at you, not your god. Your belief in an all loving god is totally unsustainable in the face of the evidence and your efforts to patch up the damage are risible. I find it almost offensive that you Christians have the nerve to try to persuade others that you are right.
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Good post Jp
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Bring forth evidence that Christ saying you have a choice of heaven or hell is abusive Cr*p.
If Jesus did say that, I don't believe the guy had anymore evidence to support the statement than the fundies do today! He comes over as very human in the Bible not some sort of deity.
Explain what was human about him raising the dead.
Explain how he fed thousands of people with a few loaves and fishes.
Explain how being human he walked on water.
Why make statements about Christ and the bible which you cannot support as being true? If Christ did not do those things by the power of God, how did he do them. I know that Christ was human but God was with him and he lived a life without sin. So show us how you reached your conclusion. :o
I don't believe Jesus did any of the magic tricks attributed to him as they are not credible in the least.
If he was some sort of deity surely he would have stuck around down here after he resurrected, to prove he was who his followers thought he was, instead of going skywards!
Then why did you pray to Him? Can you answer, or am I to just assume your hypocrisy?
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Bring forth evidence that Christ saying you have a choice of heaven or hell is abusive Cr*p.
If Jesus did say that, I don't believe the guy had anymore evidence to support the statement than the fundies do today! He comes over as very human in the Bible not some sort of deity.
Explain what was human about him raising the dead.
Explain how he fed thousands of people with a few loaves and fishes.
Explain how being human he walked on water.
Why make statements about Christ and the bible which you cannot support as being true? If Christ did not do those things by the power of God, how did he do them. I know that Christ was human but God was with him and he lived a life without sin. So show us how you reached your conclusion. :o
I don't believe Jesus did any of the magic tricks attributed to him as they are not credible in the least.
If he was some sort of deity surely he would have stuck around down here after he resurrected, to prove he was who his followers thought he was, instead of going skywards!
I think the intellectual and sincere person would have written that the bible declares Jesus did his miracles by the power of God. That no magic can do the things Christ did, whether it is magic from the past or the present.
Again NOT a deity the Son of God who was annointed with the Holy Spirit and Power and went about doing Gods will for God was with him.
If you cannot discuss the bible as it is written then you should not be making your own points up to discuss. Discuss from the points raised in the bible or not at all. Because your opinion bears no weight on these matters and detracts from the reality of Christ having done things by the power of God.
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Bring forth evidence that Christ saying you have a choice of heaven or hell is abusive Cr*p.
If Jesus did say that, I don't believe the guy had anymore evidence to support the statement than the fundies do today! He comes over as very human in the Bible not some sort of deity.
Explain what was human about him raising the dead.
Explain how he fed thousands of people with a few loaves and fishes.
Explain how being human he walked on water.
Why make statements about Christ and the bible which you cannot support as being true? If Christ did not do those things by the power of God, how did he do them. I know that Christ was human but God was with him and he lived a life without sin. So show us how you reached your conclusion. :o
I don't believe Jesus did any of the magic tricks attributed to him as they are not credible in the least.
If he was some sort of deity surely he would have stuck around down here after he resurrected, to prove he was who his followers thought he was, instead of going skywards!
I think the intellectual and sincere person would have written that the bible declares Jesus did his miracles by the power of God. That no magic can do the things Christ did, whether it is magic from the past or the present.
Again NOT a deity the Son of God who was annointed with the Holy Spirit and Power and went about doing Gods will for God was with him.
If you cannot discuss the bible as it is written then you should not be making your own points up to discuss. Discuss from the points raised in the bible or not at all. Because your opinion bears no weight on these matters and detracts from the reality of Christ having done things by the power of God.
What reality? You can't prove Jesus did any of the things claimed for him! ::)
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Why do you harass Sass at every opportunity floo? "Reality" "fairy tales" you spout. Don't make me laugh, you are the last person around here that should bring those two words up.
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Bring forth evidence that Christ saying you have a choice of heaven or hell is abusive Cr*p.
If Jesus did say that, I don't believe the guy had anymore evidence to support the statement than the fundies do today! He comes over as very human in the Bible not some sort of deity.
Explain what was human about him raising the dead.
Explain how he fed thousands of people with a few loaves and fishes.
Explain how being human he walked on water.
Why make statements about Christ and the bible which you cannot support as being true? If Christ did not do those things by the power of God, how did he do them. I know that Christ was human but God was with him and he lived a life without sin. So show us how you reached your conclusion. :o
I don't believe Jesus did any of the magic tricks attributed to him as they are not credible in the least.
If he was some sort of deity surely he would have stuck around down here after he resurrected, to prove he was who his followers thought he was, instead of going skywards!
I think the intellectual and sincere person would have written that the bible declares Jesus did his miracles by the power of God. That no magic can do the things Christ did, whether it is magic from the past or the present.
Again NOT a deity the Son of God who was annointed with the Holy Spirit and Power and went about doing Gods will for God was with him.
If you cannot discuss the bible as it is written then you should not be making your own points up to discuss. Discuss from the points raised in the bible or not at all. Because your opinion bears no weight on these matters and detracts from the reality of Christ having done things by the power of God.
What reality? You can't prove Jesus did any of the things claimed for him! ::)
Neither can you prove the opposite, imo, imo, imo: oops, got carried away; must be the company!