Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Harrowby Hall on October 06, 2015, 09:42:32 AM
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An eight-year old girl has been shot dead by an eleven-year old boy in Tennessee. She was a neighbour and she had refused to let him see her puppy. He shot her with his father's shotgun.
So far this year, 559 children have been killed or injured in the USA by firearms.
What horrifies me here is that it was a shotgun that had been used. This implies premeditation, preparation and intent. No doubt, the Usual Suspect will pop up with some anodyne comment suggesting that it was not the gun's fault.
More power to President Obama's desire to see greater - much greater - gun control.
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An eight-year old girl has been shot dead by an eleven-year old boy in Tennessee. She was a neighbour and she had refused to let him see her puppy. He shot her with his father's shotgun.
So far this year, 559 children have been killed or injured in the USA by firearms.
What horrifies me here is that it was a shotgun that had been used. This implies premeditation, preparation and intent. No doubt, the Usual Suspect will pop up with some anodyne comment suggesting that it was not the gun's fault.
More power to President Obama's desire to see greater - much greater - gun control.
I am sure we will see the "guns cannot kill people on their own" argument that it takes aperson to MAKE the gun kill.
The NRA nutters cannot see that if the gun was not there it could not kill ever.
There will be at least two regular posters on this Forum who will champion this view.
There is a video on Facebook, I do not have the link to hand but will post it if I can find it, in which a gun shop is opened offering guns for "first time buyers.
The video shows people going into the shop and asking for guns for, usually, protection and the man behind the counter shows them various guns and gives the usual sales shpiel, but then looks at a label attached to the gun and tells the customer the history of the weapon.
Every single gun in the shop had been used in the shooting of innocent kids, at schools and in the home, accidental and premeditated murders.
The looks on the faces of the customers is priceless! The shop sold not one single weapon but converted quite a few people to the inadvisability of gun ownership.
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This is the video. It's only three and a half minutes long, and worth watching.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aenzVnHC3A
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The gun culture in the US makes it a sick society, imo!
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Lord of the Flies comes to suburban USA. Most upsetting.
I simply can not understand the objection to gun regulation in the face of incidents like this.
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This is the video. It's only three and a half minutes long, and worth watching.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aenzVnHC3A
Thanks enki - I tried to find the . . . . . . thing for over an hour and still couldn't.
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Two posts from the Canadian member for the Tea Party!
Anything Obama does MUST be wrong!
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Dearest matty,
I don't do tea, I do coffee. Only a fool would think a politician gets it right all the time and a bigger fool would go after people that point out a president's or prime minister's shortcomings.
. . . or who does the same for posters on this Forum?
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Nobody around here is a head of state. Nobody around here has people electing them into the highest office of a nation. What goes on around here is nothing that can effect a nation. Dear matty, you can't be trying to line up voicing ones disagreements with a politician and your picking and whining at Hope?
No. Not at Hope, Numbnuts!
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I really wish Obama would stand up and lecture his city of Chicago when there is mass killings and gang shootings. He won't because the gun laws he helped write and enact as a senator in Illinois have failed. Any other mass shooting and he jumps in front of the cameras and lectures Americans. Yet he, as president, has brought NOTHING forward.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/ct-chicago-shootings-and-homicides-in-september-20151002-htmlstory.html
Do you agree that this tragedy would not have happened if the father of the boy had kept his shotgun properly secured?
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I really wish Obama would stand up and lecture his city of Chicago when there is mass killings and gang shootings. He won't because the gun laws he helped write and enact as a senator in Illinois have failed. Any other mass shooting and he jumps in front of the cameras and lectures Americans. Yet he, as president, has brought NOTHING forward.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/ct-chicago-shootings-and-homicides-in-september-20151002-htmlstory.html
Obama's failure on gun crime in his home town.
http://absoluterights.com/obamas-failure-to-address-chicago-violence-is-a-failure-to-every-black-person-in-america/
So, what you are saying is that Obama is the only U S President who has done nothing to curb gun ownership and gun related non-law enforcement deaths.
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Please show me where exactly I wrote such a thing Matty. Many politicians have failed on gun control, duh.
Then why have you only posted about Obama?
Why have you not noted the spectacular failure of ANY US President since 1945 to clamp down on gun ownership and thereby gun deaths?
I see a hint of racism in your only referring to Obama!
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I see a hint of racism in your only referring to Obama!
Nah - not racism - just republicanism.
And although they do sometimes walk hand in hand I don't think so in Johnny's case.
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Please show me where exactly I wrote such a thing Matty. Many politicians have failed on gun control, duh.
Then why have you only posted about Obama?
Why have you not noted the spectacular failure of ANY US President since 1945 to clamp down on gun ownership and thereby gun deaths?
I see a hint of racism in your only referring to Obama!
Johnny's tilt at President Obama fails to recognise the constitutional position of the president of the USA.
The president - any president - is constitutionally powerless to restrict gun ownership. It requires legislation and Congress enacts legislation. Thanks to the total seperation of powers, all a president can do is propose.
As long as Representatives are having their pockets filled by organisations such as the NRA then nothing will be done about the disease of gun ownership.
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As long as Representatives are having their pockets filled by organisations such as the NRA then nothing will be done about the disease of gun ownership.
Note that, contrary to common assumption both here and in the States, it isn't only Republican Representatives who "are having their pockets filled by organisations such as the NRA". There are NRA-sponsored/supported Democrat Representatives as well.
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http://us.cnn.com/2015/10/10/us/tamir-rice-shooting-reports/index.html
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The police shooting death of a 12-year-old Cleveland boy with a pellet gun was reasonable, two experts say in reports prepared for the Cuyahoga County Prosecutor.
Tamir Rice was killed by an officer in training outside a Cleveland recreation center in November 2014.
S. Lamar Sims, the senior chief deputy district attorney in Denver, wrote one of the reports and concludes Loehmann's decision to shoot Rice as he approached the officers was "objectively reasonable"
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http://us.cnn.com/2015/10/10/us/tamir-rice-shooting-reports/index.html
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The police shooting death of a 12-year-old Cleveland boy with a pellet gun was reasonable, two experts say in reports prepared for the Cuyahoga County Prosecutor.
Tamir Rice was killed by an officer in training outside a Cleveland recreation center in November 2014.
S. Lamar Sims, the senior chief deputy district attorney in Denver, wrote one of the reports and concludes Loehmann's decision to shoot Rice as he approached the officers was "objectively reasonable"
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Ypur point is?
The kid was holding a pistol and pointed it at the cops!
If you were the cop would you stand there and let the kid shoot you, or even possibly shoot you?
If you would you are an even bigger idiot that I took you for! In fact I would escalate you status from idiot to doom-brained wanker.
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http://us.cnn.com/2015/10/10/us/tamir-rice-shooting-reports/index.html
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The police shooting death of a 12-year-old Cleveland boy with a pellet gun was reasonable, two experts say in reports prepared for the Cuyahoga County Prosecutor.
Tamir Rice was killed by an officer in training outside a Cleveland recreation center in November 2014.
S. Lamar Sims, the senior chief deputy district attorney in Denver, wrote one of the reports and concludes Loehmann's decision to shoot Rice as he approached the officers was "objectively reasonable"
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Ypur point is?
The kid was holding a pistol and pointed it at the cops!
If you were the cop would you stand there and let the kid shoot you, or even possibly shoot you?
If you would you are an even bigger idiot that I took you for! In fact I would escalate you status from idiot to doom-brained wanker.
Except if you read the report he wasn't pointing the gun at the cops. A small point - but relevant I think.
The gun was in the waistband of Tamir's pants. Sims writes that in the video it appears the boy's hands moved toward his waistband but it is unclear if he reached for the gun.
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http://us.cnn.com/2015/10/10/us/tamir-rice-shooting-reports/index.html
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The police shooting death of a 12-year-old Cleveland boy with a pellet gun was reasonable, two experts say in reports prepared for the Cuyahoga County Prosecutor.
Tamir Rice was killed by an officer in training outside a Cleveland recreation center in November 2014.
S. Lamar Sims, the senior chief deputy district attorney in Denver, wrote one of the reports and concludes Loehmann's decision to shoot Rice as he approached the officers was "objectively reasonable"
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Ypur point is?
The kid was holding a pistol and pointed it at the cops!
If you were the cop would you stand there and let the kid shoot you, or even possibly shoot you?
If you would you are an even bigger idiot that I took you for! In fact I would escalate you status from idiot to doom-brained wanker.
Except if you read the report he wasn't pointing the gun at the cops. A small point - but relevant I think.
The gun was in the waistband of Tamir's pants. Sims writes that in the video it appears the boy's hands moved toward his waistband but it is unclear if he reached for the gun.
And you would be willing to take that chance? If it was your life? Especially with the number of guns in the hands of America's teenage gangs!
I am just glad that U K cops are not routinely armed except at points of entry and exit.
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And you would be willing to take that chance? If it was your life? Especially with the number of guns in the hands of America's teenage gangs!
I am just glad that U K cops are not routinely armed except at points of entry and exit.
Not quite sure what you are arguing for there. As one point is more than a little contradictory to the other. Anyway there seems to have been a failure of communication in this case as:
Information that the gun the caller saw was probably not real and that the person holding it appeared to be a juvenile was not conveyed to Loehmann and Garmback, according to recordings that law enforcement released.
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And you would be willing to take that chance? If it was your life? Especially with the number of guns in the hands of America's teenage gangs!
I am just glad that U K cops are not routinely armed except at points of entry and exit.
Not quite sure what you are arguing for there. As one point is more than a little contradictory to the other. Anyway there seems to have been a failure of communication in this case as:
Information that the gun the caller saw was probably not real and that the person holding it appeared to be a juvenile was not conveyed to Loehmann and Garmback, according to recordings that law enforcement released.
Information that the gun the caller saw was probably not real and that the person holding it appeared to be a juvenile was not conveyed to Loehmann and Garmback,
So asf ar as thgey knew IT WAS A REAL GUN!
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And you would be willing to take that chance? If it was your life? Especially with the number of guns in the hands of America's teenage gangs!
I am just glad that U K cops are not routinely armed except at points of entry and exit.
Not quite sure what you are arguing for there. As one point is more than a little contradictory to the other. Anyway there seems to have been a failure of communication in this case as:
Information that the gun the caller saw was probably not real and that the person holding it appeared to be a juvenile was not conveyed to Loehmann and Garmback, according to recordings that law enforcement released.
Information that the gun the caller saw was probably not real and that the person holding it appeared to be a juvenile was not conveyed to Loehmann and Garmback,
So asf ar as thgey knew IT WAS A REAL GUN!
Are you not reading my posts. Note the phrase "failure of communication". If your son was killed by the police because of a failure of communication - wouldn't you be even a little bit pissed off?
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And you would be willing to take that chance? If it was your life? Especially with the number of guns in the hands of America's teenage gangs!
I am just glad that U K cops are not routinely armed except at points of entry and exit.
Not quite sure what you are arguing for there. As one point is more than a little contradictory to the other. Anyway there seems to have been a failure of communication in this case as:
Information that the gun the caller saw was probably not real and that the person holding it appeared to be a juvenile was not conveyed to Loehmann and Garmback, according to recordings that law enforcement released.
Information that the gun the caller saw was probably not real and that the person holding it appeared to be a juvenile was not conveyed to Loehmann and Garmback,
So as far as they knew IT WAS A REAL GUN!
Are you not reading my posts. Note the phrase "failure of communication". If your son was killed by the police because of a failure of communication - wouldn't you be even a little bit pissed off?
Knowing the situation with regard to the police in the US and young men of colour wouldn't you do more to ensure that your son didn't go out on the streets with a gun of any sort real or imitation.
I am not going to blame a death due to a lack of parental responsibility on a lack of communication. If it had been my son I would be trying to find a very deep hole in which to hide before my wife , the boy's mother, got hold of me and wondering how the hell to ask her if she knew he was out carrying a "gun".
Do not go around blaming the cops, even US cops, for the deaths of gun-toting teenagers. It is that kind of "they are only kids" attitude that has spawned a generation of teenagers who have no respect for anything or anyone - least of all the law!
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Yep, cops always right cos they cops
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Yep, cops always right cos they cops
Don't talk rubbish.
There have been, over the past year or so more eveidence than is useful that theer are US cops who are gun-happy when it comes to teenagers of colour.
However, the prevalence of gun-ownership, legal and illegal, in the US will continue to increase the number of avoidable deaths by ginshot.
Not all cops are trigger-happy, not all teenagers are innocent victims.
In the US - if you carry a gun in public you are making a target of yourself regardless of the reason you might have for carrying a gun.
The only thing that will, with any certainty, reduce the number of gun deaths in the US is the repeal of ten Second Amendment and the NRA will fight that to the death of the last member of the NRA.
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It took them 2 seconds to decide to shoot someone. Really, that quick? They got out of the car and shot. Are you telling me that if it had been a white boy in a similar situation that the outcome would have been the same?
Note at no point did I say the police were to blame - but there is something wrong with this response (partly no doubt due to the gun culture of the USA entwined with racism) to a 12 year old boy.
You are talking great big dangly things - I suspect purely out of the need to defend your initial knee jerk reaction to Sririams post.
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It took them 2 seconds to decide to shoot someone. Really, that quick? They got out of the car and shot. Are you telling me that if it had been a white boy in a similar situation that the outcome would have been the same?
Note at no point did I say the police were to blame - but there is something wrong with this response (partly no doubt due to the gun culture of the USA entwined with racism) to a 12 year old boy.
You are talking great big dangly things - I suspect purely out of the need to defend your initial knee jerk reaction to Sririams post.
No - what you said is the that cops are right 'cos they're cops. Same difference.
If it were a white boy reported to be carrying a gun? Quite possibly.
Nowhere have I even tried to justify the shooting of a child. I merely state that one, no parent should allow their child out in public carrying a gun and so the parents must carry some of the responsibility for thgeir child's deah; two - any child, regardless of race or age, will know that all cops in the US are likely to be trigger-happy if they know that the child is carrying a gun, real or imitation, and the child's immediate reaction to seeing the cops is to reach for the gun or in the direction of the gun, assume the worst; three - in thge abscence of sure and certain knowledge that the gun is an imitation cops are likely to act on the worst case sceario.
The death of any child is to be considered to be horrific, but each must be treated as an individual case not all lumped together.
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I wish you would follow the thread.
No - what you said is the that cops are right 'cos they're cops. Same difference
I said nothing of the sort. That was Nearly Sane.
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I wish you would follow the thread.
No - what you said is the that cops are right 'cos they're cops. Same difference
I said nothing of the sort. That was Nearly Sane.
Yep, one of mine. The problem of treating cases as simply individual is if there is a likelihood of getting shot being in possession of a loud shirt in a built up area, it's stats that show it not individual cases.
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I wish you would follow the thread.
No - what you said is the that cops are right 'cos they're cops. Same difference
I said nothing of the sort. That was Nearly Sane.
Apologies!
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I wish you would follow the thread.
No - what you said is the that cops are right 'cos they're cops. Same difference
I said nothing of the sort. That was Nearly Sane.
Yep, one of mine. The problem of treating cases as simply individual is if there is a likelihood of getting shot being in possession of a loud shirt in a built up area, it's stats that show it not individual cases.
What???
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I wish you would follow the thread.
No - what you said is the that cops are right 'cos they're cops. Same difference
I said nothing of the sort. That was Nearly Sane.
Yep, one of mine. The problem of treating cases as simply individual is if there is a likelihood of getting shot being in possession of a loud shirt in a built up area, it's stats that show it not individual cases.
What???
If you want to look at possible bias it will be overall figures that reveal it, not individual cases.
As to the loud shirt
http://m.youtube.com/?#/watch?v=BO8EpfyCG2Y
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I wish you would follow the thread.
No - what you said is the that cops are right 'cos they're cops. Same difference
I said nothing of the sort. That was Nearly Sane.
Yep, one of mine. The problem of treating cases as simply individual is if there is a likelihood of getting shot being in possession of a loud shirt in a built up area, it's stats that show it not individual cases.
What???
If you want to look at possible bias it will be overall figures that reveal it, not individual cases.
As to the loud shirt
http://m.youtube.com/?#/watch?v=BO8EpfyCG2Y
I am not questioning the "possible bias". I am questioning the wisdom, in the light of the very obvious bias in US police attitudes to young men of colour, of a young man of colour going out in public with a gun - real or imitation - or of parents of young men of colour allowing their children to go out in public in possession of such an article.
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And in that case, looking at the individual cases tells you nothing. If you want to show the bias that you agree exists you need stats.
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And in that case, looking at the individual cases tells you nothing. If you want to show the bias that you agree exists you need stats.
They are not hard to find - google "USA teenage deaths by firearms".
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And in that case, looking at the individual cases tells you nothing. If you want to show the bias that you agree exists you need stats.
They are not hard to find - google "USA teenage deaths by firearms".
That's a frankly bizarre reply from someone who was arguing you should only look at individual cases.
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And in that case, looking at the individual cases tells you nothing. If you want to show the bias that you agree exists you need stats.
They are not hard to find - google "USA teenage deaths by firearms".
That's a frankly bizarre reply from someone who was arguing you should only look at individual cases.
Don't be daft. I am saying that each case should be looked at individually to see where it actually fits into the matrix of the bias figures and then allocated to the correct place within those figures.
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So they shouldn't be 'lumped together' for statistical analysis or they should?
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I wish you would follow the thread.
No - what you said is the that cops are right 'cos they're cops. Same difference
I said nothing of the sort. That was Nearly Sane.
Apologies!
No worries.
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So they shouldn't be 'lumped together' for statistical analysis or they should?
The way the statistics are created is by looking at all the cases where people have been shot by the police and counting how many victims were black and how many were white. You can then compare the ratio with the ratio of black and white people in the general population.
There is a problem though: do we have a statistically significant sample? There have been a large number of cases recently where the police have erroneously shot somebody who usually turns out to be black, but is this statistically significant or is it a random cluster. I am not qualified to answer that question.
There are other possible problems too. Are the incidents we get to hear about representative? Perhaps there are many incidents of white people getting shot by the police, but the media filters them out. The "racist police" trope makes a story more newsworthy. Furthermore, to get a full picture, we need to analyse the armed encounters between police and members of the public where nobody got shot. I doubt if anybody is counting those.
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And? Any analysis of stats will always need a certain amount of 'lumping together '. Treating cases simply as individuals does not allow for that.
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My bet: JC will consider this disgusting.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-34507760 :)
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So what we know is that there was a report on a young guy pointing a gun at people. That's what those two officers were told. That the gun maybe fake was not told to them. They stopped the police car and jumped and that kid reached for his waste where he had his gun and the officers shot. This is exactly what they were suppose to do and the investigation holds that up. I hold that twelve year old and his neglectful parents fully responsible.
Gun smuggling is big business in Britain. You can buy a hand gun in the streets of all your big cities. It will cost you about 800pounds.
"All you need is money" David Dyson
Ok...! If a 7-8 year old boy or girl is seen holding and pointing towards them what looks like a real gun...will the police similarly shoot the child dead?! Is that their brief?! No warning...no attempt at talking and convincing the person...no attempt at understanding the person....no nothing?!!!
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So what we know is that there was a report on a young guy pointing a gun at people. That's what those two officers were told. That the gun maybe fake was not told to them. They stopped the police car and jumped and that kid reached for his waste where he had his gun and the officers shot. This is exactly what they were suppose to do and the investigation holds that up. I hold that twelve year old and his neglectful parents fully responsible.
Gun smuggling is big business in Britain. You can buy a hand gun in the streets of all your big cities. It will cost you about 800pounds.
"All you need is money" David Dyson
Ok...! If a 7-8 year old boy or girl is seen holding and pointing towards them what looks like a real gun...will the police similarly shoot the child dead?! Is that their brief?! No warning...no attempt at talking and convincing the person...no attempt at understanding the person....no nothing?!!!
Unfortunately, Sriram, it would seem that the price the USA pays for its constitutional right to bare arms is that life has become cheap.
I sometimes am forced to the conclusion that no longer is it permissable just to carry a gun but there is an obligation to use it at the most opportune moments. If you see a person with what appears to be a gun, there is clearly a risk to your safety - it is therefore your duty to eliminate that risk.
I'm sure these policemen would kill a six-month old baby if it were perceive to be a threat ... providing it was black, of course.
In England, a few months ago, the police were informed that a man was waving a sword in the street. They got to him and tasered him, thereby eliminating the risk of hazard to other people.
Then they learned that he was a blind man using a white stick.
Act first and pick up the pieces later is not just the prerogative of Americans ....
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Gun smuggling is big business in Britain. You can buy a hand gun in the streets of all your big cities. It will cost you about 800pounds.
And your point?
Gun Murders per 100,000 of the population:
USA - 3.55
UK - 0.05
Oh that's right. You haven't got a point.
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So what we know is that there was a report on a young guy pointing a gun at people. That's what those two officers were told. That the gun maybe fake was not told to them. They stopped the police car and jumped and that kid reached for his waste where he had his gun and the officers shot. This is exactly what they were suppose to do and the investigation holds that up. I hold that twelve year old and his neglectful parents fully responsible.
Gun smuggling is big business in Britain. You can buy a hand gun in the streets of all your big cities. It will cost you about 800pounds.
"All you need is money" David Dyson
Ok...! If a 7-8 year old boy or girl is seen holding and pointing towards them what looks like a real gun...will the police similarly shoot the child dead?! Is that their brief?! No warning...no attempt at talking and convincing the person...no attempt at understanding the person....no nothing?!!!
Unfortunately, Sriram, it would seem that the price the USA pays for its constitutional right to bare arms is that life has become cheap.
I sometimes am forced to the conclusion that no longer is it permissable just to carry a gun but there is an obligation to use it at the most opportune moments. If you see a person with what appears to be a gun, there is clearly a risk to your safety - it is therefore your duty to eliminate that risk.
I'm sure these policemen would kill a six-month old baby if it were perceive to be a threat ... providing it was black, of course.
In England, a few months ago, the police were informed that a man was waving a sword in the street. They got to him and tasered him, thereby eliminating the risk of hazard to other people.
Then they learned that he was a blind man using a white stick.
Act first and pick up the pieces later is not just the prerogative of Americans ....
Yes...I think you're right.
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Gun smuggling is big business in Britain. You can buy a hand gun in the streets of all your big cities. It will cost you about 800pounds.
Most people don't have £800 to spend on an implement that will get them jail time if they are caught carrying them.
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Possibly. I did read a piece in the Washington Post not so long ago on how illegal guns are still relatively hard to come by in the UK.
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Possibly. I did read a piece in the Washington Post not so long ago on how illegal guns are still relatively hard to come by in the UK.
How DARE you, Rhi?
How very dare you to challenge a fact posted by the ominpotent and all-knowing JC? JC, who knows more about the UK than the people who live here!
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http://us.cnn.com/2015/10/22/us/child-road-rage-killing/index.html
A man has confessed to the road rage killing of a 4-year-old girl in New Mexico, authorities said.
"There were two children in this truck that this animal decided to open fire on just because he happened to get cut off on the freeway," said Tanner Tixier, another police spokesman.
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Police are forced by legislation to sell seized weapons instead of destroying them!
http://money.cnn.com/2015/10/21/news/police-selling-seized-guns/index.html
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Every year, police officers seize tens of thousands of rifles, shotguns, machine guns and other firearms from criminals across the country. While many agencies destroy these weapons, a growing number of police departments are selling them instead.
Since 2009, at least 11 states have passed laws that either encourage or require police departments to sell seized or recovered guns -- with some banning police from destroying guns altogether
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Police are forced by legislation to sell seized weapons instead of destroying them!
http://money.cnn.com/2015/10/21/news/police-selling-seized-guns/index.html
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Every year, police officers seize tens of thousands of rifles, shotguns, machine guns and other firearms from criminals across the country. While many agencies destroy these weapons, a growing number of police departments are selling them instead.
Since 2009, at least 11 states have passed laws that either encourage or require police departments to sell seized or recovered guns -- with some banning police from destroying guns altogether
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I, for one, ceased, a long time ago, to be amazed at anything, no matter how stupid, that Americans will do or that happens in America.
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I dunno, given the cuts to our police combined with the current govt's obsession with flogging anything with a monetary value I wouldn't be surprised if we did something as stupid here.
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I dunno, given the cuts to our police combined with the current govt's obsession with flogging anything with a monetary value I wouldn't be surprised if we did something as stupid here.
Something stupid? Yes! Something equally stupid? I would hope not.
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Am I the only one who saw the horrible story from Sweden this week about a man who killed two people with a sword at a school and thought, "at least he wasn't in the US where he would have bought a gun at the local store and killed many more"?
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Am I the only one who saw the horrible story from Sweden this week about a man who killed two people with a sword at a school and thought, "at least he wasn't in the US where he would have bought a gun at the local store and killed many more"?
No.
I thought that as well.
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This is not about guns.... but has anyone seen the video of the cop dragging the girl student yesterday?! Unbelievable! I wonder what the provocation was! Just to make her leave the classroom?!
http://us.cnn.com/2015/10/28/us/south-carolina-school-arrest-videos/index.html
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This is not about guns.... but has anyone seen the video of the cop dragging the girl student yesterday?! Unbelievable! I wonder what the provocation was! Just to make her leave the classroom?!
http://us.cnn.com/2015/10/28/us/south-carolina-school-arrest-videos/index.html
Did you read the story at your link? She was asked to leave after something to do with a mobile phone. She refused to do so and then things escalated. According to some reports, she took a swing at the officer. He'll likely be fired as a minimum.
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This is not about guns.... but has anyone seen the video of the cop dragging the girl student yesterday?! Unbelievable! I wonder what the provocation was! Just to make her leave the classroom?!
http://us.cnn.com/2015/10/28/us/south-carolina-school-arrest-videos/index.html
I just want to know why it is necessary to have cops permanently on duty in schools at all.
Apparently she was being disruptive and refused to leave the class when ordered to do so. I do feel the reaction was more than a tad over the top.
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This is not about guns.... but has anyone seen the video of the cop dragging the girl student yesterday?! Unbelievable! I wonder what the provocation was! Just to make her leave the classroom?!
http://us.cnn.com/2015/10/28/us/south-carolina-school-arrest-videos/index.html
Did you read the story at your link? She was asked to leave after something to do with a mobile phone. She refused to do so and then things escalated. According to some reports, she took a swing at the officer. He'll likely be fired as a minimum.
Yeah...I added that bit a little later. The officer has been fired.
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My niece who is a US citizen living in New York, tells me that as a rule, when they see cops on the road they walk on the other side and avoid all possible contact with them. They could give big trouble even normally I understand. What is this....North Korea?
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This is not about guns.... but has anyone seen the video of the cop dragging the girl student yesterday?! Unbelievable! I wonder what the provocation was! Just to make her leave the classroom?!
http://us.cnn.com/2015/10/28/us/south-carolina-school-arrest-videos/index.html
And this is now being reported as yet another white cop/black "offender" incident.
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In the late 90's the streets of NY were flooded with police (to me it seemed they were mostly straight out of school) - all as part of a zero tolerance program. This had a great effect in reducing crime and not only were the streets a lot safer, but the police were a lot friendlier and even the average NY'ers seemed to relax somewhat.
After 9/11, despite the increased security, NY seemed to be improving. However there has been a downturn since the killings of black citizens by cops started hitting the news and a lot of resentment seems to have built up - still cop behaviour in NY is way way better than in the southern states!
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Another case of an out of control kid who has no respect for their elders. If you try and hit a cop, the time for talking is over and you will do as you are told, NOW.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=It6s0HmcRcc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRrU0R6pew0
Here's a sickening example of elder abuse by out of control youth
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yleae_CKepY
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The US and its love of firearms make it a very sick society! >:(
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Not to mention the sick society of the gun loving Swiss. (snork)
http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/swiss-tradition_gun-loving-folk/29123560
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Not to mention the sick society of the gun loving Swiss. (snork)
http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/swiss-tradition_gun-loving-folk/29123560
I've been to Switzerland and the only people I saw carrying guns were the police. So much for the gun loving.
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Not to mention the sick society of the gun loving Swiss. (snork)
http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/swiss-tradition_gun-loving-folk/29123560
I've been to Switzerland and the only people I saw carrying guns were the police. So much for the gun loving.
Oh, the Swiss have a huge number of guns in private ownership, but they, unlike the Americans tend to have a sanity about carrying them in public, or. rather, not doing so.
As JC is fond of pointing out, in order to justify the 2nd Amendment and show that having a lot of guns doesn't make a country more dangerous, the Swiss have, I think, a higher per capita percentage of gun ownership than the Yanks but an extremely low per capita rate of gun crimes.
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Not to mention the sick society of the gun loving Swiss. (snork)
http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/swiss-tradition_gun-loving-folk/29123560
I've been to Switzerland and the only people I saw carrying guns were the police. So much for the gun loving.
Oh, the Swiss have a huge number of guns in private ownership, but they, unlike the Americans tend to have a sanity about carrying them in public, or. rather, not doing so.
As JC is fond of pointing out, in order to justify the 2nd Amendment and show that having a lot of guns doesn't make a country more dangerous, the Swiss have, I think, a higher per capita percentage of gun ownership than the Yanks but an extremely low per capita rate of gun crimes.
And the Swiss still have the equivalent to the well regulated militia that American gun fondlers seem to have forgotten about.
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And now...a six year old shot in the front seat of his car!
http://us.cnn.com/2015/11/09/us/louisiana-child-shooting/index.html
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Nearly a week after two officers allegedly killed a 6-year-old boy while pursuing his father's car in Louisiana, disturbing questions remain.
Why did officers target the father, Chris Few?
Did they know him?
Why did they open fire on 6-year-old Jeremy Mardis?
The first grader was buckled in the front passenger seat when he was shot Tuesday.
The head of Louisiana's state police said "disturbing" body camera footage helped build the case against the two officers accused of shooting the boy.
It's unclear why officers pursued or why shots were fired. Investigators say there were no outstanding warrants against the father, and no firearm was found in his vehicle.
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No surprise :(
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The two officers have been charged with murder.
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The two officers have been charged with murder.
Anyone offering odds on them being found guilty?
Hardly the outcry that happens when white officers shoot people of colour is it?
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The two officers have been charged with murder.
Anyone offering odds on them being found guilty?
Hardly the outcry that happens when white officers shoot people of colour is it?
As Sriram's cutting points out, the officers wore body cameras and the evidence from these is, apparently, very damning. The chief of police has made a very strong condemnation of their action.
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The two officers have been charged with murder.
Anyone offering odds on them being found guilty?
Hardly the outcry that happens when white officers shoot people of colour is it?
As Sriram's cutting points out, the officers wore body cameras and the evidence from these is, apparently, very damning. The chief of police has made a very strong condemnation of their action.
Which I applaud - not the ususl "closing of the ranks" in this case.
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18 rounds were fired and the kid was shot five times. Why?...is not known yet. The officer probably knew the child's father.....and it could be a case of revenge for something.
http://us.cnn.com/2015/11/09/us/louisiana-child-shooting/index.html
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I haven't a clue, but I find this story really upsetting. :'(
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From FaceBook
A Pissed Off Southern Pastor Tells It Like It Is!
I am a southern pastor and an educated professor who lives in rural Arkansas amidst folks who own guns and vote Republican. I hold college degrees, I preach in two churches, and I teach history in a respected four year college. I am not stupid.
But I am not allowed to put political signs in my yard or stickers on my car because it will offend my students and my congregants if they know how I truly believe, even though my gun toting friends can post all the memes promoting ignorance and violence they want, without fear. So instead, I will write an article and tell the whole damn world the truth:
1. I am a proud member of the Christian Left. Not only that; I find it very hard to believe that you can read the Bible and vote Republican right now. Intolerance and hatred are not in the teachings of my Christ.
2. I vote for Democrats. Every time. I would vote for a yellow dog before I voted Republican, just like my Ma and Pa before me. I do not find good in both parties like I say I do to keep you happy. I think Republican candidates are mostly ignorant and ridiculous in everything they say, and they absolutely do not represent my Christian values of love and mission.
3. I believe in freedom of speech, for everyone, even when they don’t agree with me, even when they are stupid.
4. AND freedom of religion, for everyone, even when they don’t agree with me, and aren’t Christian. I have friends who are some of the kindest people I know and they follow a different sacred text. I honor their faith, as they honor mine. To do otherwise, would not be Christ-like of me.
5. I live my life for God, but I do not think God belongs in our Constitution. Separation of church and state; It’s a thing. Look it up.
6. You cannot be both prejudiced and Christian. One prevents the other. No exceptions. If you are Christian, you don’t hate.
7. There is too much hate and there are too many guns in this country. And, I believe those things do not align with Christ’s command to love our neighbor. You cannot believe that guns are the way to save the world if you study Christ’s teachings. Peace, love, giving, acceptance, forgiveness; Christ taught all these things. I find no red scriptures on gun ownership or arming for peace. They just aren’t there. Get over it. You are not being a Christian if you put your faith in guns. How dare you post pro-gun propaganda after a school shooting. It is insensitive, and offensive, and immoral. Christ would NOT approve. People carrying guns are NOT saving lives. But the free availability of guns in this country is causing deaths which are reaching viral proportions. Enough is enough. I don’t care about your damned right to own guns. I am tired of children dying in this great country.
8. Consenting adults have a constitutional right to get a government document certifying their legal marriage. The 14th amendment guarantees it. Not only that, marriage is love, what this country is needing to combat the hate and violence we are infected with. Love and marriage are not what we should be focusing on. Starving children, mass shootings, immoral lobbying, planet destroying, violence, and hate, those are our problems.
9. Traditional marriage in the Bible is polygamous. Get a Bible and read it before you try to use it to support your hatred and intolerance.
10. The confederate flag is racist. It was flown by treasonous terrorists who fired on their own country and supported the enslavement of human beings. They lost that war and it is time to move on. If you want to show your southern pride, fly an American flag and be the true patriot you claim to be. Eat some biscuits and gravy and visit your dear old grandma. Go put flowers on the grave of your grandpa who probably fought for your right to grow up privileged. And show some appreciation for the great country you live in.
I am tired of thinking I can’t be openly honest about any of these things. Now, I am going to go pray for this great country I call home. And then, I am going to do what Christ would do. I am going to act. I am going to write my congressman, donate money to the candidates I support, and read real scholarly work on the issues of this country, so that I can form educated, rational opinions and be a contributing member to real change for the better in this rural paradise I love.
We are not all stupid here in rural, southern America. And it is time for the Christian Left in the South to stop being afraid to speak out.
About Melanie Tubbs
Melanie Tubbs is a professor, pastor, mother, Mimi, and true Arkansas woman. She lives with six cats and two dogs on a quiet hill in a rural county where she pastors a United Methodist Church and teaches history at the local university. Her slightly addictive personality comes out in shameful Netflix binges and a massive collection of books. Vegetarian cooking, reading mountains of books for her seminary classes, and crocheting for the churches prayer shawl ministry take up most of her free time, and sharing the love of Christ forms the direction of her life. May the Peace of Christ be with You.
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18 rounds were fired and the kid was shot five times. Why?
There are no half measures where guns are concerned. Under normal circumstances (normal?) police officers fire their guns because they are in fear of their lives or the lives of other bystanders. They are trained to make sure the target is neutralised. This is not the movies, you don't shoot them in the leg, you make sure they are dead.
I have no idea why the officers started firing on the boy, but having started, their training probably kicked in which is why they fired so many shots.
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I can't bear to think about it, Jeremy.
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18 rounds were fired and the kid was shot five times. Why?
There are no half measures where guns are concerned. Under normal circumstances (normal?) police officers fire their guns because they are in fear of their lives or the lives of other bystanders. They are trained to make sure the target is neutralised. This is not the movies, you don't shoot them in the leg, you make sure they are dead.
I have no idea why the officers started firing on the boy, but having started, their training probably kicked in which is why they fired so many shots.
What really appals me is theat the boy was non-verbal autistic - he couldn't even verbalise what pain he was in, or his shock! He died as he lived - in silence.
I trust that in the Summerlands he will find his voice if only to scream his agony into the ears of those who killed him.
May he walk with the Goddess until the time of his re-birth.
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I wish I could believe that as you do, Owlswing.
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Well...here we go again! 14 people killed in a shoot out in California at a center for developmental disabilities!
http://us.cnn.com/2015/12/02/us/san-bernardino-shooting/index.html
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Two suspects died in a gun battle with police Wednesday hours after authorities say they burst into a holiday party at a center for people with developmental disabilities and killed 14 people.
But it was unclear whether the furious shootout with the male and female suspects was the end of a daylong manhunt after the mass shooting at the Inland Regional Center in San Bernardino.
The violence began around 11 a.m. at the convention building at the Inland Regional Center where employees with the county health department were attending a holiday event. Witnesses said at least two shooters opened fire, killing 14 people.
Another 17 people were hurt -- many wounded by bullets from automatic-style rifles, some injured in the panic to escape.
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As Obama said.....this is becoming routine. Nobody seems to be shocked anymore.
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It's in their culture, pioneers and all that, Beverly hillbillies and Grandma and her gun
I may be mis-reading your post but you seem to be treating it as a bit of a laugh.
If as you say it is in their culture - then they need to change their culture.
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I may be mis-reading your post but you seem to be treating it as a bit of a laugh.
If as you say it is in their culture - then they need to change their culture.
That might take some doing.
Not sure if you have been there, but it is pretty much entrenched.
I went to a pistol gun range over the ( I love guns). When I asked to be shown how to load and unload and generally operate this gun I had never seen before, he looked at me in disbelief. I told him I was English, and he just said something about you guys do not have guns, and how do your police operate?
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The USA has a democratic constitution and they can change their laws as they want. Their culture may or may not change, but again it is up to what they want.
I've never really understood why this should be matter for people in the UK or elsewhere to get worked up about. After all, there are plenty of senseless deaths elsewhere that never get anywhere near the same media coverage.
Is it because we are dominated by American culture?
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This thread should be made a 'sticky' as sadly there are likely to be many more of these atrocities until the Americans crack down on guns!
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The USA has a democratic constitution and they can change their laws as they want. Their culture may or may not change, but again it is up to what they want.
I've never really understood why this should be matter for people in the UK or elsewhere to get worked up about. After all, there are plenty of senseless deaths elsewhere that never get anywhere near the same media coverage.
Is it because we are dominated by American culture?
To a certain extent it, I think yes. But I do also think it is genuine bewilderment on our part as we do not 'get' gun culture and to us it seems unthinkable that this number of deaths, on this scale can happen in what we view as a westrern democracy. Indeed, as others will no doubt point out, there are countries where gun ownership is as high, or nearly as high as the USA - but they have proportionally many fewer deaths. So why the huge difference?
It is an issue that is fascinating (OK that sounds a bit ghoulish) because we genuinely cannot comprehend why there is such a problem.
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... or such a hideous problem which on its face (I stress that part) appears to have such relatively straightforward solutions.
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... or such a hideous problem which on its face (I stress that part) appears to have such relatively straightforward solutions.
Nothing is simple when the person you are telling must do something, has a gun!
That's why they like them so much.
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Dear Trent,
It is an issue that is fascinating (OK that sounds a bit ghoulish) because we genuinely cannot comprehend why there is such a problem.
One issue I think is how we address the question, the Americans, the USA, gun tooting Americans, John Wayne, cowboys, as a simple Brit it boogles my mind that one man is in charge of such a vast country.
Gonnagle.
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Actually I was somewhat shocked at the rather casual 'its their culture' comment. Dozens of people getting killed in random shootings is part of their 'culture'?! Really?!
More than the availability of guns (which is an issue no doubt) I am more shocked at random killings of people that the killer is not even directly connected with. Taking a gun and shooting some one who has hurt you personally is bad enough... but shooting dozens of people at random in schools, care centers and so on is unbelievable!
Just because guns are available does not mean varied people across the country would shoot down strangers and school mates and colleagues ...again and again, month after month!
The discussion should be more about the psychology of the people than about the availability of guns IMO.
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This thread should be made a 'sticky' as sadly there are likely to be many more of these atrocities until the Americans crack down on guns!
355 in mass shootings in the USA in 2015 so far.
It's a daily occurrence.
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Dear Trent,
One issue I think is how we address the question
We don't. This is a US domestic issue and it is for the citizens of the USA to resolve. All we can do is sit by helplessly watching the carnage whilst also pointing out that there is a way to at least reduce it that is in effect in almost every other Western democratic society.
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Dear Jeremyp,
Sorry, my point, we say America, we generalise, like calling me Scottish ( which I am ) but I am more Glaswegian than Scottish, a silly point, maybe.
Gonnagle.
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Interesting article:
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/gop-candidates-call-prayers-calf-massacre-article-1.2453261
Republicans offer prayers to a god that clearly isn't listening. Democrats call for action by humans.
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Dear Jeremyp,
Sorry, my point, we say America, we generalise, like calling me Scottish ( which I am ) but I am more Glaswegian than Scottish, a silly point, maybe.
Gonnagle.
The problem with the "we" generalisation is that it implies that we are part of the problem. I am not, in any sense, part of the problem and these deaths are not on my conscience. I have a solution that I will give to any American that is prepared to listen to me.
They have a solution staring them in the face: they need to repeal the second amendment and institute much stricter gun controls.
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The problem with the "we" generalisation is that it implies that we are part of the problem. I am not, in any sense, part of the problem and these deaths are not on my conscience. I have a solution that I will give to any American that is prepared to listen to me.
They have a solution staring them in the face: they need to repeal the second amendment and institute much stricter gun controls.
I agree.
But I doubt they will.
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It won't happen until the Americans stop treating the Bill of Rights in the same way that fundamentalist Christians treat the Bible (fixed and unalterable for all time) and start to regard it as a document of a particular historical era no longer fit for purpose in certain respects. I won't hold my breath. People are apt to become unreasonable when they feel, rightly or wrongly, that their rights are being infringed, even if the said right is ultimately to the detriment of good order.
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Given that it is based on the 2nd Amendment not sure how that can be, Shaker?
Leaving aside a literalist view would struggle to define Bob Jones and his assault rifle as a 'well armed militia'.
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I agree.
But I doubt they will.
It will happen, but probably not in my life time. There will come a point where even they say enough is enough.
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It will happen, but probably not in my life time. There will come a point where even they say enough is enough.
Possibly.
But I think that time as you suggest, could still be a way off.
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It need not always be guns....they can use cars too! Are you going to ban cars then?!! ;)
http://us.cnn.com/2015/12/21/us/las-vegas-strip-pedestrians-hit/index.html
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A driver plowed into a crowded sidewalk several times on the Las Vegas Strip, injuring more than 30 people in what authorities described as an "intentional" act.
At least one person was killed and 37 others injured near the Paris Las Vegas Hotel on Sunday night, authorities said.
Authorities said the woman was driving down Las Vegas Boulevard before her car jumped onto the sidewalk and struck pedestrians.
She returned to the sidewalk at different spots and hit more people before barreling down the road, witnesses said.
Authorities ruled out terrorism, saying an initial investigation shows the driver did it deliberately.
"This was not an act of terrorism," Deputy Police Chief Brett Zimmerman said. "We are treating this as an intentional act."
The driver, who is in her 20s, went on the sidewalk at least three or four times, according to Zimmerman.
"The car rolled right in front of me. By the time I looked over to the right, all you could see was [her] driving away and people were bouncing off the front of the car," Nassar told CNN affiliate KLAS.
"She rode the sidewalk, she came to a stop at the Paris intersection, people are punching into the window ... she accelerated again and just kept mowing people down."
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Hope this doesn't catch on....
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It need not always be guns....they can use cars too! Are you going to ban cars then?!! ;)
It appears that the driver is being tested for drink and drugs. If either of these come back positive, to what extent could she been deemed to have done this 'under the influence' as opposed to 'on purpose', I wonder?
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It appears that the driver is being tested for drink and drugs. If either of these come back positive, to what extent could she been deemed to have done this 'under the influence' as opposed to 'on purpose', I wonder?
Drinks can make you hit someone accidentally. If you do it on purpose several times....it cannot be the drink (even if she was drunk).
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It need not always be guns....they can use cars too! Are you going to ban cars then?!! ;)
Cars have uses other than killing people. A hand gun, or an assault rifle has no other purpose.
Furthermore, nobody thinks it is unreasonable for people to demonstrate their competence to drive a car before they are allowed to take one out on public roads.
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Cars have uses other than killing people. A hand gun, or an assault rifle has no other purpose.
Furthermore, nobody thinks it is unreasonable for people to demonstrate their competence to drive a car before they are allowed to take one out on public roads.
That's not strictly true.
I have used both and killed no one.
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That's not strictly true.
I have used both and killed no one.
In a public space or at a shooting range?
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In a public space or at a shooting range?
Shooting range.
I also own a shotgun but would never take it to a public place.
I was just noting that guns are not entirely for killing people.
They do have other uses that's all.
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I was just noting that guns are not entirely for killing people.
They do have other uses that's all.
I only said "handguns and assault rifles". To be completely accurate (excuse the pun) I should have excluded target shooting pistols, but the others are designed for killing people and so are assault rifles.
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I only said "handguns and assault rifles". To be completely accurate (excuse the pun) I should have excluded target shooting pistols, but the others are designed for killing people and so are assault rifles.
I have used pistols. Glock 9mm semi auto. Fantastic gun to shoot. Comfortable in the hand, little recoil very satisfying to shoot.
Not a target pistol its police issue in the US.
Great fun.
You should try it.
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I have used pistols. Glock 9mm semi auto. Fantastic gun to shoot. Comfortable in the hand, little recoil very satisfying to shoot.
Not a target pistol its police issue in the US.
Great fun.
You should try it.
If I get the opportunity, I will, but I will never carry any kind of gun outside a shooting range. They are simply too dangerous for civilians to carry in public (this is still just hand guns and assault rifles).
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If I get the opportunity, I will, but I will never carry any kind of gun outside a shooting range. They are simply too dangerous for civilians to carry in public (this is still just hand guns and assault rifles).
Hand guns and assault rifles can and are used for fun.
They do not have to be used to kill people.
That's hand guns and assault rifles.
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Hand guns and assault rifles can and are used for fun.
On a shooting range.
They do not have to be used to kill people.
But that's what they are designed for.
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On a shooting range.
But that's what they are designed for.
But they don't have to be.
I have great fun with guns, they are fantastic things dangerous, but fantastic.
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A tin can on top of a fence post is the only shooting range I've ever used and will ever use.
I note with disappointment that there was no feelings of sympathy, from you anti USA types, for the victims in the latest Islamic terror attack in the USA. You all seem to save all of it for the victims in France that were gunned down using assault rifles bought in your EU.
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But they don't have to be.
I have great fun with guns, they are fantastic things dangerous, but fantastic.
How are they more "fantastic" than, say, a top of the range camera? Isn't this just a fetish?
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How are they more "fantastic" than, say, a top of the range camera? Isn't this just a fetish?
Guns are very dangerous, and the more people who own them the more dangerous a society becomes. Living in the US with its evil gun culture would be my idea of hell on earth. >:(
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Flooo,
The Swiss say you haven't a clue about it. And the monkey sitting on the rock confirms it.
The Swiss have a gun culture, they had a referendum and won't give up their guns. They had a mass shooting years ago but they realize that giving up guns won't stop killers. GUNS can be bought in the UK, in the alleys of all your cities. Contact your local law enforcement and get educated on gunrunning in your nation. The Islamic terrorists got their guns in your blessed EU.
Canada, even with the scrapping of the long gun registry, has been seeing a continual DROP in gun crime.
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Living in the US with its evil gun culture would be my idea of hell on earth. >:(
I wouldn't describe it as evil. Stupid maybe. Evil no.
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Flooo,
The Swiss say you haven't a clue about it. And the monkey sitting on the rock confirms it.
The Swiss have a gun culture, they had a referendum and won't give up their guns.
The Swiss don't have a gun culture.
They had a mass shooting years ago but they realize that giving up guns won't stop killers.
In the UK we had a couple of mass shootings a few years ago and we banned first all assault type weapons and then all hand guns. I think the hand gun ban went too far but I can't deny that we have had no mass shootings with either type of weapon since then. In fact the only mass shooting we have had since Dumblane was the Cumbria shootings which involved a .22 rifle and a shotgun (both still legal here and you wouldn't want to ban them because they have legitimate utility).
In the USA in 2015 they have averaged a mass shooting (involving four or more people killed or injured) at more than one per day. We have one per decade it seems.
GUNS can be bought in the UK, in the alleys of all your cities. Contact your local law enforcement and get educated on gunrunning in your nation.
This is not a binary thing. It's not a case of guns either being completely unavailable or growing on trees. Guns can be obtained in Britain, but it is very difficult. Getting hold of ammunition is even more problematic and once you have your gun, you'd better not be caught in possession of it in the street because that is a jail sentence.
The Islamic terrorists got their guns in your blessed EU.
Canada, even with the scrapping of the long gun registry, has been seeing a continual DROP in gun crime.
Crimes of all types are generally dropping in the UK, but this is due more to social changes than the availability of guns.
Death from gun crime is absolutely correlated with the availability of guns as the USA proves. Read the following link and weep for the people killed by their gun culture.
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/firearms-research/guns-and-death/
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Jeremy,
Actually the Swiss do have a gun culture. A gun culture doesn't mean American.
http://world.time.com/2012/12/20/the-swiss-difference-a-gun-culture-that-works/
http://bunkerville.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/swiss2.jpg?w=500&h=365
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I think John Oliver's Gun Control Trilogy speaker volumes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pOiOhxujsE&list=PLOKWcH1zBl2kfnCwyyZWk5MW28lgaNa7L&index=1
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Jeremy,
Actually the Swiss do have a gun culture. A gun culture doesn't mean American.
http://world.time.com/2012/12/20/the-swiss-difference-a-gun-culture-that-works/
http://bunkerville.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/swiss2.jpg?w=500&h=365
I've been to Switzerland several times. They do not have a gun culture. They are not rabidly anti gun control. They are not obsessed with self defence using guns. People don't walk around in the streets fondling their weapons.
Having said that, their figures would actually be considered terrible in comparison with the UK. They have four times our firearm homicide rate and nearly 18 times our suicide rate from firearms. I can't compare the accidental death rate because the UK doesn't really have accidental deaths from firearms.
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I wonder how long some of these actions will survive once Obama leaves office this time next year.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-35236630
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About the Swiss gun culture.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/1566715.stm
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About the Swiss gun culture.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/1566715.stm
The first paragraph is outright wrong.
Switzerland firearm homicide rate per 100,000 = 0.23, UK = 0.06
Switzerland firearm suicide rate per 100,000 = 2.68, UK = 0.15
Switzerland firearm accidental deaths per 100,000 = 0.1, UK = 0
This is in spite of the fact that Swiss people are much richer than British people and they don't have anything like the social problems we have, so take your Switzerland gun culture and shove it up your arse.
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Well given some time I think gun owners will find these changes not bad at all. I definitely support more background checks, keeping criminals from legally buying a gun and more money towards mental illness and keeping those people from legally buying a gun.
"Requires inclusion of mental health information...in background check system..."
http://www.ncsl.org/research/civil-and-criminal-justice/summary-president-obama-gun-proposals.aspx
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Why deny a fact Jeremy. The Swiss have a gun culture, so does Canada. Even though France has much stricter gun laws than Canada, more people die by the gun in France per 100,000 than here.
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Why deny a fact Jeremy.
You tell me, why are you denying a fact?
The Swiss have a gun culture
And quite a high death rate from guns.
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Now Jeremy, I don't care how many times you have gone to Switzerland to do some yodeling and milk some cows. The Swiss gun culture is not the American gun culture. In the same post you deny it's existence and then go on to tell me how a lot of Swiss, that do not have a gun culture, die by the gun. Too funny you. Gun ownership is very entrenched in the Swiss culture and if you were not so busy milking cows and yodeling you would be able to find that out on your next visit there. Yes it is entrenched in their culture and they see gun ownership as a part of their patriotic duty and identity as a nation. All true Jeremy, that has been to Switzerland many times.
I see that you are trying to muck the water here. If you remove suicide is your claim to death by guns in Switzerland so high? How are you UK men killing yourselves off lately? Pills? Whatever.
http://www.npr.org/2013/03/19/174758723/facing-switzerland-gun-culture
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I do find it both amusing and sadening that - with Obama declaring that he plans to do something about the culrure in the States (which is, of course, what this thread is all about) all we can manage is an on-going spat regarding gun-control in Switzerland and Canada (and perhaps France).
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I do find it both amusing and sadening that - with Obama declaring that he plans to do something about the culrure in the States (which is, of course, what this thread is all about) all we can manage is an on-going spat regarding gun-control in Switzerland and Canada (and perhaps France).
Hope,
What do you expect with an Anglophobe monomaniac on the thread?
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Hope,
I did comment. I think they will find the new rules and laws not hard to live with.
Yes jeremy and I are having a disagreement about Swiss gun culture. Let's not try and pretend other nations do not have gun ownership.
Matty,
Why can't you act your advanced age and quit with your childish name calling?
You call me an Anglophobe. I love the UK, I do not love arrogant Brits nor Canadians that look down their noses and target the USA for ridicule. You will note that nobody around here offered kind thoughts about the victims and families after those two Islamic terrorists slaughtered those Americans in San Bernardino. Just an opportunity for some here to spew on about guns in the USA. While the terror attacks in France brought sympathy and kind words from people here. No mention of the fact that guns are being smuggled into Europe every day. The UK rocks in my books Matty. So cut the childish name calling and blatant lying. You may find yourself happier.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nf1OgV449g
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Hope,
What do you expect with an Anglophobe monomaniac on the thread?
But you've only just joined in, Matt ;D
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Hope,
I did comment. I think they will find the new rules and laws not hard to live with.
Yes jeremy and I are having a disagreement about Swiss gun culture. Let's not try and pretend other nations do not have gun ownership.
Matty,
Why can't you act your advanced age and quit with your childish name calling?
You call me an Anglophobe. I love the UK, I do not love arrogant Brits nor Canadians that look down their noses and target the USA for ridicule. You will note that nobody around here offered kind thoughts about the victims and families after those two Islamic terrorists slaughtered those Americans in San Bernardino. Just an opportunity for some here to spew on about guns in the USA. While the terror attacks in France brought sympathy and kind words from people here. No mention of the fact that guns are being smuggled into Europe every day. The UK rocks in my books Matty. So cut the childish name calling and blatant lying. You may find yourself happier.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nf1OgV449g
There is only one thing that would make me happiier and I am not allowed to post that!
I didn't see much sympathy for the French victims from the Americans, but that does not surprise me.
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But you've only just joined in, Matt ;D
Ho Ho Ho! Too funny you.
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Well we have something in common dear friend, I am a firm Anglophile as well. Queen and country and all!. Sadly you are living alone in your own little world Matty. There was lots of sympathy coming from south of the 49th. You hate America so I'm not surprised you were not watching American news.
Such an angry person you are.
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The Swiss gun culture is not the American gun culture.
No it isn't. They don't have people wandering around in public carrying guns. They don't have an obsession with some stupid right to bear arms.
In the same post you deny it's existence and then go on to tell me how a lot of Swiss, that do not have a gun culture, die by the gun.
There are a lot of gun in Switzerland and unsurprisingly, a lot of people get shot by them.
If you remove suicide is your claim to death by guns in Switzerland so high? How are you UK men killing yourselves off lately? Pills? Whatever.
If you look at my previous post, you'll notice I gave figures for suicide, homicide and accidental deaths. You can answer the question yourself just by reading it.
In any case, I don't know why it is you think suicides don't count as tragic loss of life.
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Ho Ho Ho! Too funny you.
Well, in view of some of your (mis)interpretations of people's posts - something that has been relatively limited in recent days ...
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Are others getting the 'Join the NRA - Free Pocket Knife' ad?
I have sometimes wondered whether more opponents ought to join this kind of body, and proceed to vote against the main principles they espouse, at conferences and conventions.
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Who's got the guns-again
http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/small-arms-survey-countries-with-the-most-guns-1.3392204
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The citizens in the US who support their present gun laws have a few screws loose, imo! >:(
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Who's got the guns-again
http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/small-arms-survey-countries-with-the-most-guns-1.3392204
The comments made under the Switzerland listing are interesting . . .
Switzerland is alone in Western Europe in its attitude toward gun ownership. Swiss men, all considered part of the militia after mandatory arms training, are permitted to keep their service rifles at home. In contrast to the Small Arms Survey figures, government numbers put gun ownership at about 25 for every 100 Swiss.
. . . which drops them right off the bottom of the list.
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But even Obama who once said he will change the gun laws seems to now believe otherwise and only taking moderate and cautious steps....at least so it seems.
http://us.cnn.com/2016/01/07/politics/obama-gun-control-town-hall-takeaways/index.html
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He re-affirmed Americans' right to buy guns, and even said his wife, Michelle Obama, turned to him while the two drove through Iowa during the 2008 campaign and said if she lived in a farm house with a sheriff's office far away, "'I'd want to have a shotgun or a rifle to make sure I was protected and my family was protected.'"
"And she's absolutely right," he said.
When Colorado rape victim Kimberly Corban said that owning a firearm makes her feel safer, Obama told her there is, "nothing we're proposing that prevents you or makes it harder for you to purchase a firearm if you need one."
******************
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But even Obama who once said he will change the gun laws seems to now believe otherwise and only taking moderate and cautious steps....at least so it seems.
http://us.cnn.com/2016/01/07/politics/obama-gun-control-town-hall-takeaways/index.html
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He re-affirmed Americans' right to buy guns, and even said his wife, Michelle Obama, turned to him while the two drove through Iowa during the 2008 campaign and said if she lived in a farm house with a sheriff's office far away, "'I'd want to have a shotgun or a rifle to make sure I was protected and my family was protected.'"
"And she's absolutely right," he said.
When Colorado rape victim Kimberly Corban said that owning a firearm makes her feel safer, Obama told her there is, "nothing we're proposing that prevents you or makes it harder for you to purchase a firearm if you need one."
******************
That's because he's well aware that America isn't a dictatorship, and even the enforcement actions he's suggesting for the current laws are facing strong opposition in the political system.
He's not reluctant to go further, he's reluctant to try to go further and get his arse handed to him by right-wing dingbats in the houses.
O.
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He's not reluctant to go further, he's reluctant to try to go further and get his arse handed to him by right-wing dingbats in the houses.
If they are executive orders, to what extent can right-wing dingbats do anything to him?
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If they are executive orders, to what extent can right-wing dingbats do anything to him?
They can introduce or amend legislation to stop it.
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Dear matty,
What list are you writing about?
http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/small-arms-survey-countries-with-the-most-guns-1.3392204
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Dear matty,
What list are you writing about?
http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/small-arms-survey-countries-with-the-most-guns-1.3392204
Yes that one:
1. The U.S. has 88.8 guns for every 100 residents.
Barack Obama said on Monday that his plan to tighten gun control is "well within" his authority and remains consistent with the Second Amendment, Americans' constitutional right to bear arms.
USA-MILITIA North Florida Survival Group 2012
Members of a Florida survival group get ready for a training exercise near Old Town, Fla., in 2012. The group passionately supports the right of U.S. citizens to bear arms, according to its website. (Brian Blanco/Reuters)
2. Yemen has 54.8 guns per 100 residents.
The Saudi-led, U.S.-supported coalition in Yemen is enmeshed in a years-long fight against Iran-backed Houthi rebels, with al-Qaeda and ISIS exploiting the chaos to maintain a hold on the Arabian Peninsula.
Weapons belonging to the military are excluded from the Small Arms Survey, which is in part why Switzerland could rank anywhere from second to 16th, depending on whether the guns held by Swiss adults — many of whom are part of an armed civilian militia — count. In Yemen, access to accurate information poses a similar challenge to reporting.
3. Switzerland has 45.7 guns per 100 residents.
Switzerland is alone in Western Europe in its attitude toward gun ownership. Swiss men, all considered part of the militia after mandatory arms training, are permitted to keep their service rifles at home. In contrast to the Small Arms Survey figures, government numbers put gun ownership at about 25 for every 100 Swiss.
4. Finland is 45.3 for every 100 people.
Gun ownership in Finland is among the highest in the world, although crime rates remain among the world's lowest.
FINLAND high gun ownership rates
5. Serbia has 37.8 guns per 100 residents.
Bombed by U.S.-led NATO airstrikes in the 1999 war against forces loyal to Slobodan Milosevic, Serbia — which is steadily moving toward full ascension into the E.U. — re-entered the international arms market in the mid-2000s with deals to produce small-calibre guns for the U.S. arms firm Remington.
SERBIA gun ownership among worlds highest
6. Cyprus has 36.4 guns for every 100 people.
The Mediterranean island nation of Cyprus, off the coasts of Turkey, Syria and Lebanon, has had a tumultuous history that includes a continuing, and at times violent, territorial dispute between Cypriots of Turkish and Greek ancestry.
Turkish and Greek CYPRIOT violence
7. 35 guns for every 100 Saudis.
While firearms ownership and licensing are highly regulated in this country, Saudi Arabia is known to have a widespread black market trade in firearms.
8. Iraq has approximately 34.2 firearms for every 100 people...
But a total gun count is all but impossible after years of war following the 2003 invasion and 2011 pullout of U.S. forces. The Iraqi insurgency has continued as fighters from the Syrian civil war, as well as ISIS militants, have spilled into the country.
MIDEAST-CRISIS IRAQ forces backed by militia retake former Saddam fort from ISIS Oct 2015
9. Uruguay has 31.8 guns per 100 people.
For a country with only 3.3 million people, firearms possession in Uruguay is unusually high with some 605,000 weapons registered with the government, according GunPolicy.org. Nearly 89 per cent of Uruguay's registered gun owners are civilians, according to the defence ministry registry.
URUGUAY has a lot of guns for South America
10th and 11th place: Sweden and Norway have 31.6 and 31.3 firearms per 100 residents respectively.
SWEDEN has lots of guns hunter in Jan 2011
Right behind France, which has 31.2 guns/100 people, Canada places 13th on the Small Arms Survey list with 30.8 firearms per 100 residents.
CANADA 13th on Small Arms Survey list of guns per capita
It might help if you, or your monkey, actually read the various links that you post!
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I get that Matty. But to me, if you have a gun in your home, it should count. I have five long guns in my home securely locked in a cabinet and ammo stored under lock in another part of my house. If I count, then so should the cop or soldier down the street who has guns in their home. The Swiss have a gun culture that suits them fine. I have mine and the USA will do what they will. It irks me to here arrogant dim wits from other countries try and tell America how it should be done. You know something, I betcha there are more anti gun Americans than the entire population of your nation and mine put together.
Do you realize that illegal guns are coming into your Europe through the Balkans?
I don't see Obama's plan as outrageous at all. I think given a chance it may do a bit of good and the gun lobby will find it easy to live with.
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I get that Matty. But to me, if you have a gun in your home, it should count. I have five long guns in my home securely locked in a cabinet and ammo stored under lock in another part of my house. If I count, then so should the cop or soldier down the street who has guns in their home. The Swiss have a gun culture that suits them fine. I have mine and the USA will do what they will. It irks me to here (sic) arrogant dim wits from other countries try and tell America how it should be done. You know something, I betcha there are more anti gun Americans than the entire population of your nation and mine put together.
No more than it irks the rest of the world to have America tell everyone else how things should be done, like telling us that we should have less restrictive gun laws and arm all our police.
Do you realize (sic) that illegal guns are coming into your Europe through the Balkans?
It is NOT MY Europe! I am a full=on supporter of ther Brexit a s a p!
I don't see Obama's plan as outrageous at all. I think given a chance it may do a bit of good and the gun lobby will find it easy to live with.
You think? quite obviously not often.
You and your glove puppet in Matty (when was the last time he posted?) knocking are both guilty of making assertions and then trying to wriggle out of the fact that your back-up doesn't!
Wriggle wriggle wriggle!
You posted back-up for your claim and it did nothing of the sort and now you are adding provisions to allow your back-up to support your argument!
Forget it OH MY WORLD! I really can't be bothered with your fallacious arguments and nonsensical politics any longer. Come to think of it the monkey is probably more likely to provide an intelligent conversation, please get him/her to register as a poster.
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Dearest friend Angry Matty,
You still refuse to think before you post. Oh well, you just keep on, keeping on in your own little world. At your advanced age it's too late for you to grow up. (snork)
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Dearest friend Angry Matty,
You still refuse to think before you post. Oh well, you just keep on, keeping on in your own little world. At your advanced age it's too late for you to grow up. (snork)
Oh JC- I am NOT angry, not at all.
You no longer have the ability to stir me to anger; what you do is fill me with despair.
You make me think of a comedy sketch by a comedian namesake of mine, Russell Howard, who travelled back in time and walked up to the door of a Canadian farmhouse, knocked and a man and woman answered.
"Mr and Mrs Bieber?" he asked.
"Yes" they amnswered.
Russell pulled a packet from his pocket, handed it to Mr Bieber and said "This is a condom - for the love of humanity - use it!"
Replace "Mr and Mrs Bieber" with Mr and Mrs Canoe" and you will get my drift.
I responded to you on my return from holiday in the hope that afetr disciplinary action by the Mods you might have grown up - a forlorn hope. I will not be replying to you again, nor to your glove puppet.
I wish you well for the future.
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How long before JC comments on here about the Canadian shootings?
It wouldn't have taken this long if it had been in the US or UK!