Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Rhiannon on November 01, 2015, 10:24:27 AM
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Looking out my window, all I can see is green and gold against a pale blue sky the colour of chicory flowers. The cherry plum leaves are just falling, the sycamore hasn't coloured yet. Walking up the lane the ash leaves make a pale yellow carpet, the horse chestnut golden brown. Hazel leaves are butter yellow but perhaps it is the field maple that gives the hedge the glorious colour. Last night's mist has gone and today is crisp and bright. I can hear the crows that gather on the newly cultivated fields. Last week we picked sloes ready for sloe gin; they are in the freezer as they work best if a frost has got to them, and we haven't really had one yet here.
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Apart from the thick mist first thing this morning, one could believe it was a summer's day! Like Nov 1st last year it is now quite warm, and I certainly didn't need a jacket on for my last walk. People are in shorts and T shirts.
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It's much colder here today than yesterday. Apparently it's a not uncommon occurrence for a late blast of warmth now - something to do with a certain type of wind coming up from the continent.
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My favourite time of year (along with winter). Getting up this morning to see a properly misty autumn morning (albeit briefly) was magical, as is the quality of the light on a clear day (as today now is) as dusk starts to gather.
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A lovely morning here today, sunshine breaking slowly through early mist picking out a multitude of dew-soaked spider webs in the hedgerows. One of the wonders of nature, spiders webs, and early autumn mornings are the best time to go out and wonder at them. How can such a tiny creature as a spider produce such intricate symetric constructions and of a material so beautifully balanced at a tradeoff point between tensile strength and weight. Little moments like these move me so much.
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A lovely morning here today, sunshine breaking slowly through early mist picking out a multitude of dew-soaked spider webs in the hedgerows. One of the wonders of nature, spiders webs, and early autumn mornings are the best time to go out and wonder at them. How can such a tiny creature as a spider produce such intricate symetric constructions and of a material so beautifully balanced at a tradeoff point between tensile strength and weight. Little moments like these move me so much.
Likewise. Anima naturaliter pagana ;)
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The ice-edged light of autumn set the trees ablaze this morning. Brown turned to shining bronze, yellow and red to flame. The reaching branches flung their colours against a sky of clearest blue and took my breath with them. "That tree is a rainbow" said my four year old daughter. It wasn't offered as a description, but as a statement of fact. This time of year does mysterious things to the soul.
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I can't hear very well, hearing aids and all that, but my sense of smell is more or less as it's always been, pretty good and autumn has an aroma of its own that makes it seem to be a magic of some kind, I love it.
ippy
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Dear Shaker,
Anima naturaliter pagana
Is this a proper translation
Then naturally pagan.
Gonnagle.
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Not quite - naturally pagan soul.
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Me too. :)
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The forecast predicts a day of heavy fog on Monday in many areas, sufficiently severe potentially to cause significant travel disruption in places, so if you're out and about please do take care everyone.
I'll be going nowhere and will be having a duvet day, so I can enjoy a foggy autumn day outside of the window next to me and watch the leaves dropping off the maple outside :)
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The fog came down last night. I need to drive into town - 8 miles along windy lanes - for a medical appointment. Still, I get to walk the dog first. :)
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Autumn is my favourite time of year. I just love the colours.
For the last few nights we have had a fog hanging around, it certainly give the back gardens a spooky feel over the weekend.
Krysta
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Yes autumn colours are lovely. Perhaps we ought to book a board trip out to New England one day. Any takers ?
Autumn is the only brief time in the year when we can see the trees' indigenous colours. All through Spring and Summer the trees have to pack every available leaf space with chloroplasts, and so everything turns a uniform green because of that base need to survive.
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Very wet today. Reminded me I need to get new tyres before winter.
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It is quite sunny and mild at the moment, I don't feel cold going outside without a jacket over my T shirt. However, we are supposed to have a lot of rain later this afternoon.
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Just walked the dog through mud and leaves. Aged three, he finally discovered today what puddles are for. When Labs get very wet the fur on their faces sticks up like a terrier's.
He's now gently steaming in front of the woodburner.
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Just walked the dog through mud and leaves. Aged three, he finally discovered today what puddles are for. When Labs get very wet the fur on their faces sticks up like a terrier's.
He's now gently steaming in front of the woodburner.
We used to have a Labrador once, but never got on with it, so found it a good home.
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You need to know what you are getting with Labs - a youngster will chew through absolutely anything - our one went through everything from reading glasses to the sofa to a Dyson. They also have bottomless stomachs and the boys especially can grow quite large and striong. Labs are the least hyper of the gun dogs but even so they need a good amount of walking, and because they are (supposedly) clever they need stuff to do.
Jak once advised me to get my dog an antler - I found someone who supplies pieces smoothed off for dogs to chew and he's happy as Larry with it - and it looks like it won't wear out at all.
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You need to know what you are getting with Labs - a youngster will chew through absolutely anything - our one went through everything from reading glasses to the sofa to a Dyson. They also have bottomless stomachs and the boys especially can grow quite large and striong. Labs are the least hyper of the gun dogs but even so they need a good amount of walking, and because they are (supposedly) clever they need stuff to do.
Jak once advised me to get my dog an antler - I found someone who supplies pieces smoothed off for dogs to chew and he's happy as Larry with it - and it looks like it won't wear out at all.
We have had many dogs in our married life, but for some reason my husband just couldn't take to the Lab which replaced his much loved favourite dog, which was run over. That was only time I had ever seen him shed a tear! Anyway we ensured the Lab went to a very good home so no problem.
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Yes, some friends of mine bred our dog and kept one puppy, but he didn't fit in with their other dogs so they rehomed him. It's easy to find people who want labs as they are such nice dogs. Our one came from a family with five kids - he's now so good with mine.
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Yes, some friends of mine bred our dog and kept one puppy, but he didn't fit in with their other dogs so they rehomed him. It's easy to find people who want labs as they are such nice dogs. Our one came from a family with five kids - he's now so good with mine.
We have loads of Labs in our neighbourhood, and I can't see the attraction, similarly I dislike all small yappy dogs. I do like German shepherds with which I was brought up. When our last dog died in 2002 I put my foot down and said, 'NO MORE!'. I was the poor idiot who ended up doing everything for them, however much the family promised to walk and feed them etc! :o
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My personal preference is for a dog to be big enough for you to give it a bear hug. I don't get the fashion for chihuahuas, my friend has one and in temperament she's more cat than dog.
I like cats, which is why I also have a cat. Not a sort of cat-like dog that likes being carried in a bag.
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My personal preference is for a dog to be big enough for you to give it a bear hug. I don't get the fashion for chihuahuas, my friend has one and in temperament she's more cat than dog.
I like cats, which is why I also have a cat. Not a sort of cat-like dog that likes being carried in a bag.
I don't like an animal to get too affectionate, I detest being licked by one. We have had about 35 cats in our married life. Many disappeared without trace in two of the rural properties in which we lived, probably shot by poachers or people shooting pheasants. There again I put my foot down after the last one disappeared, and said we would have no more cats either.
We have a gerbil, our organic paper shredder, and I bought another tarantula spider the other week.
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One of the great privileges in life is to gain the love and trust of an animal. There's few things I find finer than sitting on the sofa with the wood burner going and I'm reading a book, and the dog climbs up next to me and puts his soft head in my lap. Sometimes I get up in the middle of the night and make a drink and sit with him for a bit, and his gentleness and uncomplicated love always soothes me. Our cat is a rescue, and an old one at that; she doesn't like being handled, but when I sit on my bed to meditate she comes and curls up on my feet.
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A very fruitful autumn. We have had huge amounts of apples, and neighbours who have pear trees and quince trees, have been giving us those, so most nights we are slurping stewed fruit. Still picking raspberries as well, and also grapes.
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One of the great privileges in life is to gain the love and trust of an animal. There's few things I find finer than sitting on the sofa with the wood burner going and I'm reading a book, and the dog climbs up next to me and puts his soft head in my lap. Sometimes I get up in the middle of the night and make a drink and sit with him for a bit, and his gentleness and uncomplicated love always soothes me. Our cat is a rescue, and an old one at that; she doesn't like being handled, but when I sit on my bed to meditate she comes and curls up on my feet.
Whatever turns you on, I suppose. All our animals had to know their place and were never permitted in the sitting room or bedrooms. Our daughter's dogs don't like my rules very much when they visit, but TOUGH!
But getting back to the topic of Autumn, it is very Novemberish here today, gloomy and raining.
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One of the great privileges in life is to gain the love and trust of an animal. There's few things I find finer than sitting on the sofa with the wood burner going and I'm reading a book, and the dog climbs up next to me and puts his soft head in my lap. Sometimes I get up in the middle of the night and make a drink and sit with him for a bit, and his gentleness and uncomplicated love always soothes me. Our cat is a rescue, and an old one at that; she doesn't like being handled, but when I sit on my bed to meditate she comes and curls up on my feet.
Absolutely. If the animals with which we share our lives aren't part of the family, what's the point having them in the first place?
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One of the great privileges in life is to gain the love and trust of an animal. There's few things I find finer than sitting on the sofa with the wood burner going and I'm reading a book, and the dog climbs up next to me and puts his soft head in my lap. Sometimes I get up in the middle of the night and make a drink and sit with him for a bit, and his gentleness and uncomplicated love always soothes me. Our cat is a rescue, and an old one at that; she doesn't like being handled, but when I sit on my bed to meditate she comes and curls up on my feet.
Absolutely. If the animals with which we share our lives aren't part of the family, what's the point having them in the first place?
To be useful like our gerbil. Having said that they must never be ill-treated
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So they only have worth if they have some sort of direct practical utility?
Christ, what a mean and impoverished view of life.
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So they only have worth if they have some sort of direct practical utility?
Christ, what a mean and impoverished view of life.
I think animals have to earn their keep like humans!
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One of the great privileges in life is to gain the love and trust of an animal. There's few things I find finer than sitting on the sofa with the wood burner going and I'm reading a book, and the dog climbs up next to me and puts his soft head in my lap. Sometimes I get up in the middle of the night and make a drink and sit with him for a bit, and his gentleness and uncomplicated love always soothes me. Our cat is a rescue, and an old one at that; she doesn't like being handled, but when I sit on my bed to meditate she comes and curls up on my feet.
Absolutely. If the animals with which we share our lives aren't part of the family, what's the point having them in the first place?
To be useful like our gerbil. Having said that they must never be ill-treated
my hamster was useful, if often wrapped in sellotape
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So they only have worth if they have some sort of direct practical utility?
Christ, what a mean and impoverished view of life.
I think animals have to earn their keep like humans!
Why? Where's the room for love and affection and companionship (both ways) in all this?
Do babies and children have to earn their keep as well?
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So they only have worth if they have some sort of direct practical utility?
Christ, what a mean and impoverished view of life.
I think animals have to earn their keep like humans!
Why? Where's the room for love and affection and companionship (both ways) in all this?
Do babies and children have to earn their keep as well?
I couldn't love or feel affectionate towards an animal, but would never mistreat one.
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So they only have worth if they have some sort of direct practical utility?
Christ, what a mean and impoverished view of life.
I think animals have to earn their keep like humans!
Why? Where's the room for love and affection and companionship (both ways) in all this?
Do babies and children have to earn their keep as well?
I couldn't love or feel affectionate towards an animal, but would never mistreat one.
so given your husband and children are animals, you merely refrain from mistreating them?
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So they only have worth if they have some sort of direct practical utility?
Christ, what a mean and impoverished view of life.
I think animals have to earn their keep like humans!
Why? Where's the room for love and affection and companionship (both ways) in all this?
Do babies and children have to earn their keep as well?
I couldn't love or feel affectionate towards an animal, but would never mistreat one.
so given your husband and children are animals, you merely refrain from mistreating them?
I must admit I not touchy feely where adults are concerned, but didn't mind hugging and cuddling my children when they were young, and now my grandchildren.
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So they only have worth if they have some sort of direct practical utility?
Christ, what a mean and impoverished view of life.
I think animals have to earn their keep like humans!
Why? Where's the room for love and affection and companionship (both ways) in all this?
Do babies and children have to earn their keep as well?
I couldn't love or feel affectionate towards an animal, but would never mistreat one.
so given your husband and children are animals, you merely refrain from mistreating them?
I must admit I not touchy feely where adults are concerned, but didn't mind hugging and cuddling my children when they were young, and now my grandchildren.
And you have no love and affection for your husband and children, just a refraining from mistreating them?
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One of the great privileges in life is to gain the love and trust of an animal. There's few things I find finer than sitting on the sofa with the wood burner going and I'm reading a book, and the dog climbs up next to me and puts his soft head in my lap. Sometimes I get up in the middle of the night and make a drink and sit with him for a bit, and his gentleness and uncomplicated love always soothes me. Our cat is a rescue, and an old one at that; she doesn't like being handled, but when I sit on my bed to meditate she comes and curls up on my feet.
Absolutely. If the animals with which we share our lives aren't part of the family, what's the point having them in the first place?
To be useful like our gerbil. Having said that they must never be ill-treated
Leaving aside the rights and wrongs of that, you do know some printer inks and paper ingredients are toxic to gerbils, right?
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One of the great privileges in life is to gain the love and trust of an animal. There's few things I find finer than sitting on the sofa with the wood burner going and I'm reading a book, and the dog climbs up next to me and puts his soft head in my lap. Sometimes I get up in the middle of the night and make a drink and sit with him for a bit, and his gentleness and uncomplicated love always soothes me. Our cat is a rescue, and an old one at that; she doesn't like being handled, but when I sit on my bed to meditate she comes and curls up on my feet.
Absolutely. If the animals with which we share our lives aren't part of the family, what's the point having them in the first place?
Our dog is everything you would want from a family pet - big, daft, easy-going and friendly. The cat though doesn't fit the mould - we rescued two but they fought all the time and in the end we had to send one back ( :'( :'( :'() so we rehomed the young, friendly lap cat and kept the older, cuddle-free one. It's been great for the kids as they've learned to accept her for who she is and not what they think a pet cat should be. They love her to bits; I often find her asleep on the bed with a child lying alongside her gently stroking the top of her head.
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So they only have worth if they have some sort of direct practical utility?
Christ, what a mean and impoverished view of life.
I think animals have to earn their keep like humans!
Why? Where's the room for love and affection and companionship (both ways) in all this?
Do babies and children have to earn their keep as well?
I couldn't love or feel affectionate towards an animal, but would never mistreat one.
so given your husband and children are animals, you merely refrain from mistreating them?
I must admit I not touchy feely where adults are concerned, but didn't mind hugging and cuddling my children when they were young, and now my grandchildren.
And you have no love and affection for your husband and children, just a refraining from mistreating them?
I love in my own way!
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One of the great privileges in life is to gain the love and trust of an animal. There's few things I find finer than sitting on the sofa with the wood burner going and I'm reading a book, and the dog climbs up next to me and puts his soft head in my lap. Sometimes I get up in the middle of the night and make a drink and sit with him for a bit, and his gentleness and uncomplicated love always soothes me. Our cat is a rescue, and an old one at that; she doesn't like being handled, but when I sit on my bed to meditate she comes and curls up on my feet.
Amazing! I could have written that myself! The only slight difference is that my rescue cat is as cuddly and loving as my precious Meg.
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So they only have worth if they have some sort of direct practical utility?
Christ, what a mean and impoverished view of life.
I think animals have to earn their keep like humans!
Why? Where's the room for love and affection and companionship (both ways) in all this?
Do babies and children have to earn their keep as well?
I couldn't love or feel affectionate towards an animal, but would never mistreat one.
so given your husband and children are animals, you merely refrain from mistreating them?
I must admit I not touchy feely where adults are concerned, but didn't mind hugging and cuddling my children when they were young, and now my grandchildren.
And you have no love and affection for your husband and children, just a refraining from mistreating them?
I love in my own way!
Then you love animals, which you said you couldn't do.
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One of the great privileges in life is to gain the love and trust of an animal. There's few things I find finer than sitting on the sofa with the wood burner going and I'm reading a book, and the dog climbs up next to me and puts his soft head in my lap. Sometimes I get up in the middle of the night and make a drink and sit with him for a bit, and his gentleness and uncomplicated love always soothes me. Our cat is a rescue, and an old one at that; she doesn't like being handled, but when I sit on my bed to meditate she comes and curls up on my feet.
Amazing! I could have written that myself! The only slight difference is that my rescue cat is as cuddly and loving as my precious Meg.
I'm so glad that you and Meg have found each other, and your cat as well. :)
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One of the great privileges in life is to gain the love and trust of an animal. There's few things I find finer than sitting on the sofa with the wood burner going and I'm reading a book, and the dog climbs up next to me and puts his soft head in my lap. Sometimes I get up in the middle of the night and make a drink and sit with him for a bit, and his gentleness and uncomplicated love always soothes me. Our cat is a rescue, and an old one at that; she doesn't like being handled, but when I sit on my bed to meditate she comes and curls up on my feet.
Amazing! I could have written that myself! The only slight difference is that my rescue cat is as cuddly and loving as my precious Meg.
I'm so glad that you and Meg have found each other, and your cat as well. :)
Thank you Rhiannon. The joy they bring me is immeasurable!
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A very fruitful autumn. We have had huge amounts of apples, and neighbours who have pear trees and quince trees, have been giving us those, so most nights we are slurping stewed fruit. Still picking raspberries as well, and also grapes.
It might be a bit late but on the Recipes thread I've put up the one for blackberry brandy, which is also suitable for raspberries etc.
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One of the great privileges in life is to gain the love and trust of an animal. There's few things I find finer than sitting on the sofa with the wood burner going and I'm reading a book, and the dog climbs up next to me and puts his soft head in my lap. Sometimes I get up in the middle of the night and make a drink and sit with him for a bit, and his gentleness and uncomplicated love always soothes me. Our cat is a rescue, and an old one at that; she doesn't like being handled, but when I sit on my bed to meditate she comes and curls up on my feet.
Absolutely. If the animals with which we share our lives aren't part of the family, what's the point having them in the first place?
To be useful like our gerbil. Having said that they must never be ill-treated
If you don't like a creature, or it is a nuisance in some manner, just get another one, eh? What sort of person is that?
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Another extremely mild day for November, and fairly bright after yesterday's gloom.
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Shaker, you are a hoot! It was you that mentioned children being useless several months back and here you are asking if they have to, earn their keep too. Of course you will claim that you don't recall calling them useless, but ya did it.
I wonder how floo's big fuzzy spider EARNED it's keep. Too funny. Or perhaps that is why it's dead, she stopped feeding it and told it to, get a job!
I have only 6 fish that EARN their keep. My catfish, they do a good job as scavengers. All the rest of my fish need to get jobs. (snork)
The blood moon over my city. View from the edge of my hill
https://youtu.be/Hr4rPiztIR0
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I appreciate how important pets can be. I don't have any now but had two cats while I was growing up and wept when they died.
Having said that I feel there is an element of utility in the person-pet relationship. It certainly isn't a relationship of equality is it? If these animals were coming to us from the wild of their own volition and staying while remaining free to leave... Perhaps that would be equal. As it is they exist and live entirely at our behest. We sterilise them for our convenience and subject them to various other medical procedures, including euthanasia. It would be disingenuous to deny that on some level pets serve a purpose of our making, nor of theirs. Just like any other other possesion. All the same they can live very happy lives and enjoy genuine love and affection from their owners. I have no objection to owning a pet.
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That's certainly true of dogs - they generally don't last long without human help. Cats though are quite different. My cat could fend for herself no problem - she finds a soft bed preferable to under a bush in the winter but in the summer we hardly see her except if she wants food. I've known cats to revert to feral even if handled well as kittens and well treated as adults because it is a preference within them.
What I think is undeniable is the mental well- being that comes with pet ownership. I believe it's been shown that stroking a pet reduces stress hormones and blood pressure.
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Having said that I feel there is an element of utility in the person-pet relationship. It certainly isn't a relationship of equality is it?
No, but then neither is a parent-child relationship, hence my remark about babies and toddlers earning their keep. Michael Faraday famously asked "What use is a newborn baby?" to make the same point: babies especially are totally dependent (far more so than any pet) and require a huge outlay of money, time, effort and attention just about every single minute of every day. They take, take, take, take, take and give nothing of direct practical utility back - but people still do it.
If these animals were coming to us from the wild of their own volition and staying while remaining free to leave... Perhaps that would be equal.
According to what I've read that was most likely the case with cats and dogs. Cats demonstrated themselves to be useful at catching the mice and rats that ate valuable stores of grain, for example, and were kept around - rewarded with food - for that reason.
As it is they exist and live entirely at our behest. We sterilise them for our convenience and subject them to various other medical procedures, including euthanasia. It would be disingenuous to deny that on some level pets serve a purpose of our making, nor of theirs. Just like any other other possesion. All the same they can live very happy lives and enjoy genuine love and affection from their owners. I have no objection to owning a pet.
Given the colossal amounts of money spent on them the purpose is surely companionship and the love and affection they provide - but as I said yesterday, that works both ways, so the relationship (at best, anyway) is symbiotic. It's a little more difficult to see what's given back in the case of something like a snake or an iguana, but with a cat or a dog - the animal species closest to humans and their everyday lives - it couldn't be more obvious.
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And most animal welfare charities sterilise animals for their welfare - sterilised females get less tumours, both makes and females are safer if they aren't trying to escape to breed and neutering reduces the number of unwanted animals, especially cats.
The alternative to domestic dogs is no dogs.
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And most animal welfare charities sterilise animals for their welfare - sterilised females get less tumours, both makes and females are safer if they aren't trying to escape to breed and neutering reduces the number of unwanted animals, especially cats.
The alternative to domestic dogs is no dogs.
What about guard dogs?
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And most animal welfare charities sterilise animals for their welfare - sterilised females get less tumours, both makes and females are safer if they aren't trying to escape to breed and neutering reduces the number of unwanted animals, especially cats.
The alternative to domestic dogs is no dogs.
What about guard dogs?
They are still domestic (ie not wild) and are owned to do a job. Ditto police dogs, SAR dogs, guide dogs, sheepdogs etc.
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Having said that I feel there is an element of utility in the person-pet relationship. It certainly isn't a relationship of equality is it?
No, but then neither is a parent-child relationship, hence my remark about babies and toddlers earning their keep. Michael Faraday famously asked "What use is a newborn baby?" to make the same point: babies especially are totally dependent (far more so than any pet) and require a huge outlay of money, time, effort and attention just about every single minute of every day. They take, take, take, take, take and give nothing of direct practical utility back - but people still do it.
But like all animals we have a biological imperative to reproduce. There is no such imperative for keeping individuals of another species as possesions. It's unreasonable to draw a parallel between the two.
The rest I agree with. Personally I see it simply as a matter of principle that we aknowledge that the balance of the relationship between people and pets is in favour of the human. circumstances exist that make pet ownership a possibility only because humanity has conspired to make it so. Whilst different pet animals will exhibit various degrees of independence they all of them subject to our will.
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They are still domestic (ie not wild) and are owned to do a job. Ditto police dogs, SAR dogs, guide dogs, sheepdogs etc.
And they exist in vastly smaller numbers than pet dogs which are part of people's families.
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I don't wish to be flippant - I am both a mother and a pet owner and I know the difference - but I have relations who can't have their own kids and they have cats instead. I think it undeniable that pets appeal to something within us that isn't a million miles from the urge we have to hold and protect small children - we've even selectively bred animals that have the same wide-eyed look that babies have.
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I don't wish to be flippant - I am both a mother and a pet owner and I know the difference - but I have relations who can't have their own kids and they have cats instead. I think it undeniable that pets appeal to something within us that isn't a million miles from the urge we have to hold and protect small children - we've even selectively bred animals that have the same wide-eyed look that babies have.
It's called Kinderschema ;)
Moreover, it's an example of what E. O. Wilson calls biophilia - the automatic, inherent, instinctive affinity humans have (well ... some of them, not all of them) for other forms of life.
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There y'go, there's big words for it so it must be right. :)
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Ooooooo!!!!! Thanks Shaker!! That is really useful for something I'm working on professionally. See, it's always worth hanging around here... You never know what you might learn.
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Even I can be useful for something if you wait long enough ::)
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Alarming weather here - roads flooding and trees coming down in the high winds. Reckon there will be a power cut soon.
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I hope not :(
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I don't wish to be flippant - I am both a mother and a pet owner and I know the difference - but I have relations who can't have their own kids and they have cats instead. I think it undeniable that pets appeal to something within us that isn't a million miles from the urge we have to hold and protect small children - we've even selectively bred animals that have the same wide-eyed look that babies have.
It's called Kinderschema ;)
Moreover, it's an example of what E. O. Wilson calls biophilia - the automatic, inherent, instinctive affinity humans have (well ... some of them, not all of them) for other forms of life.
........but often not so much for their own species...........
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Hardly. If people can't find compassion for animals then they aren't likely to have it for people either.
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Hardly. If people can't find compassion for animals then they aren't likely to have it for people either.
I totally agree. You are either compassionate, or you aren't. Compassion is not selective.
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That children who are cruel to animals go on to be adults who are cruel to humans (and animals) has been known for a long time. If the compassion bit of the brain is damaged/defective, it's damaged across the board.
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Hardly. If people can't find compassion for animals then they aren't likely to have it for people either.
I totally agree. You are either compassionate, or you aren't. Compassion is not selective.
My mother is very living and compassionate about her family and people she knows. She isn't at all compassionate about non human animals.
Hitler appears to have loved his dogs.
I suggest your black and white position is a bit too black and white
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Hitler appears to have loved his dogs.
This I'm afraid is as big an urban myth (i.e. flatly untrue) as Hitler being a vegetarian - he was despicably cruel to his dogs, beating them brutally with a rhino hide whip.
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Hardly. If people can't find compassion for animals then they aren't likely to have it for people either.
I totally agree. You are either compassionate, or you aren't. Compassion is not selective.
My mother is very living and compassionate about her family and people she knows. She isn't at all compassionate about non human animals.
Hitler appears to have loved his dogs.
I suggest your black and white position is a bit too black and white
Black and white is the only way compassion works. If you cannot find it in your being to show compassion to all others, then you are not truly compassionate. As I said, it is not selective.
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Hardly. If people can't find compassion for animals then they aren't likely to have it for people either.
I totally agree. You are either compassionate, or you aren't. Compassion is not selective.
My mother is very living and compassionate about her family and people she knows. She isn't at all compassionate about non human animals.
Hitler appears to have loved his dogs.
I suggest your black and white position is a bit too black and white
Black and white is the only way compassion works. If you cannot find it in your being to show compassion to all others, then you are not truly compassionate. As I said, it is not selective.
So my mother has no compassion, according to you.
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Hardly. If people can't find compassion for animals then they aren't likely to have it for people either.
I totally agree. You are either compassionate, or you aren't. Compassion is not selective.
My mother is very living and compassionate about her family and people she knows. She isn't at all compassionate about non human animals.
Hitler appears to have loved his dogs.
I suggest your black and white position is a bit too black and white
But when push comes to shove I'm sure she'd never see an animal suffer. That's compassion.
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Hardly. If people can't find compassion for animals then they aren't likely to have it for people either.
I totally agree. You are either compassionate, or you aren't. Compassion is not selective.
My mother is very living and compassionate about her family and people she knows. She isn't at all compassionate about non human animals.
Hitler appears to have loved his dogs.
I suggest your black and white position is a bit too black and white
But when push comes to shove I'm sure she'd never see an animal suffer. That's compassion.
She is happy to eat meat and thinks vegetarians are foolish and animal rights activists don't understand the real world. By BA's 'logic' that is surely not compassionate? In which case she has no compassion by his 'logic'
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Hardly. If people can't find compassion for animals then they aren't likely to have it for people either.
I totally agree. You are either compassionate, or you aren't. Compassion is not selective.
My mother is very living and compassionate about her family and people she knows. She isn't at all compassionate about non human animals.
Hitler appears to have loved his dogs.
I suggest your black and white position is a bit too black and white
Black and white is the only way compassion works. If you cannot find it in your being to show compassion to all others, then you are not truly compassionate. As I said, it is not selective.
So my mother has no compassion, according to you.
I didn't quite say that, did I. Perhaps it would be more polite to say that her compassion might be extended somewhat.
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You said you are either compassionate or you aren't. No room in that for being extended.
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You said you are either compassionate or you aren't. No room in that for being extended.
Let me throw it back at you: would you describe a person who has no compassion for other intelligent, sentient beings (animals ) as compassionate?
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I didn't quite say that, did I. Perhaps it would be more polite to say that her compassion might be extended somewhat.
How can you say this about someone you don't know?
If we think of compassion as, say, being abstract and also having something to do with good character then you seem to be suggesting some kind of compassion deficiency in relation to NS's mother - on what basis do you reach this judgment?
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You said you are either compassionate or you aren't. No room in that for being extended.
Let me throw it back at you: would you describe a person who has no compassion for other intelligent, sentient beings (animals ) as compassionate?
Throw what back at me? Your avoidance of t point?
Anyway, as I said earlier, I think it is more complex than just compassionate/ not compassionate dichotomy you have been arguing for here. I think people can be compassionate about some things but not others and still have compassionate. It's like many things in human behaviour a continuum.
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I didn't quite say that, did I. Perhaps it would be more polite to say that her compassion might be extended somewhat.
How can you say this about someone you don't know?
If we think of compassion as, say, being abstract and also having something to do with good character then you seem to be suggesting some kind of compassion deficiency in relation to NS's mother - on what basis do you reach this judgment?
It is NS who introduced his mother into the discussion. I am talking in general terms, and if you wish to personalise it, perhaps you can justify why an individual should be sparing in his/her compassion?
I repeat: if you are unable to show compassion to animals, who suffer so much at human hands, then I think your sense of compassion is lacking in total. How can anyone feel pity for suffering humans, and not feel compassion that same suffering in other creatures. I find that concept amazing. Gandhi said that when we face our Maker, the question we will find it most difficult to answer, is our treatment of the animals of the world.
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You said you are either compassionate or you aren't. No room in that for being extended.
Let me throw it back at you: would you describe a person who has no compassion for other intelligent, sentient beings (animals ) as compassionate?
Throw what back at me? Your avoidance of t point?
Anyway, as I said earlier, I think it is more complex than just compassionate/ not compassionate dichotomy you have been arguing for here. I think people can be compassionate about some things but not others and still have compassionate. It's like many things in human behaviour a continuum.
But why be selective with your compassion? I cannot understand why any person should decide to ignore the sufferings and needs of some beings, and not others?
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Actually BA, you are not repeating yourself, you are qualifying the dichotomy you originally posited that either you are compassionate or you are not.
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Actually BA, you are not repeating yourself, you are qualifying the dichotomy you originally posited that either you are compassionate or you are not.
Okay. But you haven't justified the notion that it is acceptable to be sparing with your compassion. To me, to ignore suffering in any creature is just plain wrong.
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You said you are either compassionate or you aren't. No room in that for being extended.
Let me throw it back at you: would you describe a person who has no compassion for other intelligent, sentient beings (animals ) as compassionate?
Throw what back at me? Your avoidance of t point?
Anyway, as I said earlier, I think it is more complex than just compassionate/ not compassionate dichotomy you have been arguing for here. I think people can be compassionate about some things but not others and still have compassionate. It's like many things in human behaviour a continuum.
But why be selective with your compassion? I cannot understand why any person should decide to ignore the sufferings and needs of some beings, and not others?
I haven't been making an argument about the whys of compassion, just about your false dichotomy that one is either compassionate or not compassionate - something you are now seeking to qualify without retracting what you are no portraying as erroneous.
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You said you are either compassionate or you aren't. No room in that for being extended.
Let me throw it back at you: would you describe a person who has no compassion for other intelligent, sentient beings (animals ) as compassionate?
Throw what back at me? Your avoidance of t point?
Anyway, as I said earlier, I think it is more complex than just compassionate/ not compassionate dichotomy you have been arguing for here. I think people can be compassionate about some things but not others and still have compassionate. It's like many things in human behaviour a continuum.
But why be selective with your compassion? I cannot understand why any person should decide to ignore the sufferings and needs of some beings, and not others?
I haven't been making an argument about the whys of compassion, just about your false dichotomy that one is either compassionate or not compassionate - something you are now seeking to qualify without retracting what you are no portraying as erroneous.
Dichotomy or not, with respect, you are not appreciating my point here. I believe that to consider yourself compassionate, then your compassion should extend to all. If your compassion does not extend to all, then you cannot, in honesty, call yourself a truly compassionate person. Why do you disagree with that?
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With respect, read what I have posted here because we haven't been talking about what you or I might consider a 'truly' (added word that didn't firm part of your original statement ) compassionate person. I have, as I have made clear multiple times, just been disagreeing with your dichotomy of compassionate/not compassionate.
Anyway off to club a seal now, I hope you manage to get what has been said and repaid rather than your straw you seem so keen on. Have a nice evening.
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It is NS who introduced his mother into the discussion. I am talking in general terms, and if you wish to personalise it, perhaps you can justify why an individual should be sparing in his/her compassion?
You seem to see compassion as being measurable: you said earlier about compassion being 'extended' and now you talk of it being 'sparing', which suggests some kind of quantitative scale for something that surely has qualitative aspects. How does that work?
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With respect, read what I have posted here because we haven't been talking about what you or I might consider a 'truly' (added word that didn't firm part of your original statement ) compassionate person. I have, as I have made clear multiple times, just been disagreeing with your dichotomy of compassionate/not compassionate.
Anyway off to club a seal now, I hope you manage to get what has been said and repaid rather than your straw you seem so keen on. Have a nice evening.
Clearly we aren't going to see eye to eye on this, so we'll leave it at that. I'm off to my weekly,"Save the rats" group." ;) Have a good night.
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It is NS who introduced his mother into the discussion. I am talking in general terms, and if you wish to personalise it, perhaps you can justify why an individual should be sparing in his/her compassion?
You seem to see compassion as being measurable: you said earlier about compassion being 'extended' and now you talk of it being 'sparing', which suggests some kind of quantitative scale for something that surely has qualitative aspects. How does that work?
When I talk of "sparing," I'm referring to the manner in which some see it, not I. How can you be compassionate sometimes, not always, and not to all beings? "I feel compassion for that sad man, but not his dog, who both died in the same accident," is not the definition of a compassionate person.
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I don't believe animals of other species should be treated in the same way as humans, but one should not be deliberately cruel to them either. The animals which we eat should be dispatched in a way which causes them as little pain as possible.
My father used to drown the unwanted kittens of the many cats we had on our property, which kept down any vermin. My mother was not happy that he disposed of them in that way as it was not always a quick death. :o He did desist, but I am not sure how he got rid of them after that!
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I don't believe animals of other species should be treated in the same way as humans, but one should not be deliberately cruel to them either. The animals which we eat should be dispatched in a way which causes them as little pain as possible.
My father used to drown the unwanted kittens of the many cats we had on our property, which kept down any vermin. My mother was not happy that he disposed of them in that way as it was not always a quick death. :o He did desist, but I am not sure how he got rid of them after that!
To quote a popular song of yesteryear: "Your loveliness goes on and on."
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First proper frost this morning, accompanied by thick fog and that ubiquitous autumn creature, the tailgating muppet.
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It is still very mild here. As nice as that is, it isn't normal for the time of year and global warming springs to mind.
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It is still very mild here. As nice as that is, it isn't normal for the time of year and global warming springs to mind.
It shouldn't - this is just weather
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It is still very mild here. As nice as that is, it isn't normal for the time of year and global warming springs to mind.
It shouldn't - this is just weather
But not normal for the time of year!
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It is still very mild here. As nice as that is, it isn't normal for the time of year and global warming springs to mind.
It shouldn't - this is just weather
But not normal for the time of year!
Which will show nothing about global warming
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How was the storm last night for you chaps north of the border?
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As the old saying goes, weather is what you see if you open the front door - any conclusions about climate have to be based on rigorous data going back decades or even centuries.