Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: ippy on November 12, 2015, 12:17:54 PM
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Non-religious people often say that we don't know the first thing about Paganism, well they're wrong we do know a lot about it, as follows:
Ram's horns, an animal skin tied over one shoulder, a crude wooden club, a crude tripod and caldron suspended over a smoky fire, Stonehenge on midsummer's day or any other stone circle that can be found, as long as it's old, daisy chains in the hair, long cloaks with a hoodie tied together with an old length of rope knotted at each end, crude hand made sandals, oh and one of those chairs suspended on two rough hewn poles with four blokes shouldering someone sitting in the chair, all the women are dressed as earth mothers flowing skirts and all that, naked dancing in the dark, (probably best in the dark), Carl Orff's music played on a tin whistle like flute in the background, second hand Dennis Wheatly books on offer, chalks for drawing mystic symbols, Dennis Price, everything happening in a film noir like atmosphere, all sorts of sacrifice you name it they have it and lots of chanting.
ippy
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Spot on, Ippy. You know so much you could almost be one.
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Spot on, Ippy. You know so much you could almost be one.
Surely he has missed out The Wicker Man?
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Spot on, Ippy. You know so much you could almost be one.
Surely he has missed out The Wicker Man?
Best documentary on paganism I've seen so far.
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Non-religious people often say that we don't know the first thing about Paganism, well they're wrong we do know a lot about it, as follows:
Ram's horns, an animal skin tied over one shoulder, a crude wooden club, a crude tripod and caldron suspended over a smoky fire, Stonehenge on midsummer's day or any other stone circle that can be found, as long as it's old, daisy chains in the hair, long cloaks with a hoodie tied together with an old length of rope knotted at each end, crude hand made sandals, oh and one of those chairs suspended on two rough hewn poles with four blokes shouldering someone sitting in the chair, all the women are dressed as earth mothers flowing skirts and all that, naked dancing in the dark, (probably best in the dark), Carl Orff's music played on a tin whistle like flute in the background, second hand Dennis Wheatly books on offer, chalks for drawing mystic symbols, Dennis Price, everything happening in a film noir like atmosphere, all sorts of sacrifice you name it they have it and lots of chanting.
ippy
I wish!
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Spot on, Ippy. You know so much you could almost be one.
Surely he has missed out The Wicker Man?
Blast!
ippy
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Spot on, Ippy. You know so much you could almost be one.
Thanks for that Rhi, a lot of people would say that I'm just another silly old sod but they're the ones that don't realise that It takes the really intelligent few like yourself to appreciate the difference.
ippy
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So, Paganism is basically a matter of dressing up and acquiring a bunch of 70s cliché or gothic cultural paraphernalia?
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So, Paganism is basically a matter of dressing up and acquiring a bunch of 70s cliché or gothic cultural paraphernalia?
Yeah... what's your point?
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Patchouli oil...you forgot something, Ippy.
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Patchouli oil...you forgot something, Ippy.
Sorry I'm not effluent in Greek is that wot the oil's for.
ippy
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So, Paganism is basically a matter of dressing up and acquiring a bunch of 70s cliché or gothic cultural paraphernalia?
And reading a lot of Dennis Wheatly; you really are clueless Uday.
ippy
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So, Paganism is basically a matter of dressing up and acquiring a bunch of 70s cliché or gothic cultural paraphernalia?
Yeah... what's your point?
Actually, and I hate to say this Ippy, but what you have described is the stereotypical witch beloved of Christians and other non-pagans just about everywhere, but at the least sensational end of the scale.
Now, I am not going to detail each and every thing that is in error in your post.
I have tried, more times than I care to think about, to describe what the actuality is - and it has been treated with nothing but ridicule and abuse. Rhiannon's paganism and mine are two entirely different things and this again has attracted dismissal of our beliefs because our detractots cannot see that they are part of the same belief They are, purely because Paganism is an umbrella term that covers an awfully large area of belief.
Now, I am going to take a chance that your OP was posted rather tongue-in-cheek for reasons that I, at present, cannot fathom. If you were being funny - then fine, and I will not post further. If you were not - then ask questions to which you would like answers from someone who is a Pagan of many years standing and a member of a Wiccan Coven, Priest and Witch in the Second Degree, and who would welcome intelligent enquiries from someone who really seeks knowledge rather than interminable questions, stupid questions to me, hilarious questions to them, and my answers being followed by pathetic, idiotic, and peurile comments from the WUM's and trolls, and I will answer them to the best of my ability.
To the horror or disgust of at least one poster, if I do not know the answer, I may search Google or ask fellow witches in order to try and answer you fiully.
Please understand, however, that certain information is, in a Coven, regarded as Oathbound - it may not be spoken of outside the Coven. If this is the case I will tell you so and I ask that you accept that answer as the only one that I can give you.
Over to you!
BB
)O(
Edited for typo's 19:16
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Hmmm... I dunno... it doesn't look like Ippy needs to ask any questions. He seems to have all the fundamentals sorted.
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So, Paganism is basically a matter of dressing up and acquiring a bunch of 70s cliché or gothic cultural paraphernalia?
And reading a lot of Dennis Wheatly; you really are clueless Uday.
ippy
I was just trying to work out what my collection is worth. You could obviously do with a copy of the "The devil rides out". Or to be more up to date ... how about a nice "The Ring" video?
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Hmmm... I dunno... it doesn't look like Ippy needs to ask any questions. He seems to have all the fundamentals sorted.
. . . what you have described is the stereotypical witch beloved of Christians and other non-pagans just about everywhere, but at the least sensational end of the scale.
Did you read this or are you just taking the piss?
Ram's horns, Stonehenge on midsummer's day or any other stone circle that can be found, as long as it's old, long cloaks with a hood. lots of chanting.
Ippy's post edited to delete the rubbish!
Does that satisfy you? You are now free to laugh out loud at the supid bloody pagan/witch instead of doing it behind your hand!
After all my time on here I really should have known better, shouldn't I?
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So, Paganism is basically a matter of dressing up and acquiring a bunch of 70s cliché or gothic cultural paraphernalia?
Yeah... what's your point?
Actually, and I hate to say this Ippy, but what you have described is the stereotypical witch beloved of Christians and other non-pagans just about everywhere, but at the least sensational end of the scale.
Now, I am not going to detail each and every thing that is in error in your post.
I have tried, more times than I care to think about, to describe what the actuality is - and it has been treated with nothing but ridicule and abuse. Rhiannon's paganism and mine are two entirely different things and this again has attracted dismissal of our beliefs because our detractots cannot see that they are part of the same belief They are, purely because Paganism is an umbrella term that covers an awfully large area of belief.
Now, I am going to take a chance that your OP was posted rather tongue-in-cheek for reasons that I, at present, cannot fathom. If you were being funny - then fine, and I will not post further. If you were not - then ask questions to which you would like answers from someone who is a Pagan of many years standing and a member of a Wiccan Coven, Priest and Witch in the Second Degree, and who would welcome intelligent enquiries from someone who really seeks knowledge rather than interminable questions, stupid questions to me, hilarious questions to them, and my answers being followed by pathetic, idiotic, and peurile comments from the WUM's and trolls, and I will answer them to the best of my ability.
To the horror or disgust of at least one poster, if I do not know the answer, I may search Google or ask fellow witches in order to try and answer you fiully.
Please understand, however, that certain information is, in a Coven, regarded as Oathbound - it may not be spoken of outside the Coven. If this is the case I will tell you so and I ask that you accept that answer as the only one that I can give you.
Over to you!
BB
)O(
Edited for typo's 19:16
Bit of a mix really Owl, taking the bung out of myself taking the bung out of the few things I've seen that admittedly only appear to me that they have a connection to paganism.
In serious mode, as far as I'm concerned there is no place any of the supernatural magic and mythical alleged happenings that so many take seriously.
We're now in the 21st century enlightenment happened years ago and anything we don't understand at present doesn't mean we'll never understand.
I find all of these types of belief including paganism, that haven't got any rational reasoned evidence that would support them, candidates for open season.
ippy
-
So, Paganism is basically a matter of dressing up and acquiring a bunch of 70s cliché or gothic cultural paraphernalia?
Yeah... what's your point?
Actually, and I hate to say this Ippy, but what you have described is the stereotypical witch beloved of Christians and other non-pagans just about everywhere, but at the least sensational end of the scale.
Now, I am not going to detail each and every thing that is in error in your post.
I have tried, more times than I care to think about, to describe what the actuality is - and it has been treated with nothing but ridicule and abuse. Rhiannon's paganism and mine are two entirely different things and this again has attracted dismissal of our beliefs because our detractots cannot see that they are part of the same belief They are, purely because Paganism is an umbrella term that covers an awfully large area of belief.
Now, I am going to take a chance that your OP was posted rather tongue-in-cheek for reasons that I, at present, cannot fathom. If you were being funny - then fine, and I will not post further. If you were not - then ask questions to which you would like answers from someone who is a Pagan of many years standing and a member of a Wiccan Coven, Priest and Witch in the Second Degree, and who would welcome intelligent enquiries from someone who really seeks knowledge rather than interminable questions, stupid questions to me, hilarious questions to them, and my answers being followed by pathetic, idiotic, and peurile comments from the WUM's and trolls, and I will answer them to the best of my ability.
To the horror or disgust of at least one poster, if I do not know the answer, I may search Google or ask fellow witches in order to try and answer you fiully.
Please understand, however, that certain information is, in a Coven, regarded as Oathbound - it may not be spoken of outside the Coven. If this is the case I will tell you so and I ask that you accept that answer as the only one that I can give you.
Over to you!
BB
)O(
Edited for typo's 19:16
Bit of a mix really Owl, taking the bung out of myself taking the bung out of the few things I've seen that admittedly only appear to me that they have a connection to paganism.
In serious mode, as far as I'm concerned there is no place any of the supernatural magic and mythical alleged happenings that so many take seriously.
We're now in the 21st century enlightenment happened years ago and anything we don't understand at present doesn't mean we'll never understand.
I find all of these types of belief including paganism, that haven't got any rational reasoned evidence that would support them, candidates for open season.
ippy
Thanks for at least being honest with me!.
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Hmmm... I dunno... it doesn't look like Ippy needs to ask any questions. He seems to have all the fundamentals sorted.
. . . what you have described is the stereotypical witch beloved of Christians and other non-pagans just about everywhere, but at the least sensational end of the scale.
Did you read this or are you just taking the piss?
Ram's horns, Stonehenge on midsummer's day or any other stone circle that can be found, as long as it's old, long cloaks with a hood. lots of chanting.
Ippy's post edited to delete the rubbish!
Does that satisfy you? You are now free to laugh out loud at the supid bloody pagan/witch instead of doing it behind your hand!
After all my time on here I really should have known better, shouldn't I?
Don't look for enemies behind every post. I was taking the piss, yes, but conspiratorially. It was an attempt to laugh with you, not at you. A sarcastic dig at ippys toung in cheek OP.
if I unintentionally upset you then I appologise
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So, Paganism is basically a matter of dressing up and acquiring a bunch of 70s cliché or gothic cultural paraphernalia?
Yeah... what's your point?
Actually, and I hate to say this Ippy, but what you have described is the stereotypical witch beloved of Christians and other non-pagans just about everywhere, but at the least sensational end of the scale.
Now, I am not going to detail each and every thing that is in error in your post.
I have tried, more times than I care to think about, to describe what the actuality is - and it has been treated with nothing but ridicule and abuse. Rhiannon's paganism and mine are two entirely different things and this again has attracted dismissal of our beliefs because our detractots cannot see that they are part of the same belief They are, purely because Paganism is an umbrella term that covers an awfully large area of belief.
Now, I am going to take a chance that your OP was posted rather tongue-in-cheek for reasons that I, at present, cannot fathom. If you were being funny - then fine, and I will not post further. If you were not - then ask questions to which you would like answers from someone who is a Pagan of many years standing and a member of a Wiccan Coven, Priest and Witch in the Second Degree, and who would welcome intelligent enquiries from someone who really seeks knowledge rather than interminable questions, stupid questions to me, hilarious questions to them, and my answers being followed by pathetic, idiotic, and peurile comments from the WUM's and trolls, and I will answer them to the best of my ability.
To the horror or disgust of at least one poster, if I do not know the answer, I may search Google or ask fellow witches in order to try and answer you fiully.
Please understand, however, that certain information is, in a Coven, regarded as Oathbound - it may not be spoken of outside the Coven. If this is the case I will tell you so and I ask that you accept that answer as the only one that I can give you.
Over to you!
BB
)O(
Edited for typo's 19:16
Bit of a mix really Owl, taking the bung out of myself taking the bung out of the few things I've seen that admittedly only appear to me that they have a connection to paganism.
In serious mode, as far as I'm concerned there is no place any of the supernatural magic and mythical alleged happenings that so many take seriously.
We're now in the 21st century enlightenment happened years ago and anything we don't understand at present doesn't mean we'll never understand.
I find all of these types of belief including paganism, that haven't got any rational reasoned evidence that would support them, candidates for open season.
ippy
couple clichés in this
''were in the 21st century''
''Enlightenment happened years ago''
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So, Paganism is basically a matter of dressing up and acquiring a bunch of 70s cliché or gothic cultural paraphernalia?
Yeah... what's your point?
Actually, and I hate to say this Ippy, but what you have described is the stereotypical witch beloved of Christians and other non-pagans just about everywhere, but at the least sensational end of the scale.
Now, I am not going to detail each and every thing that is in error in your post.
I have tried, more times than I care to think about, to describe what the actuality is - and it has been treated with nothing but ridicule and abuse. Rhiannon's paganism and mine are two entirely different things and this again has attracted dismissal of our beliefs because our detractots cannot see that they are part of the same belief They are, purely because Paganism is an umbrella term that covers an awfully large area of belief.
Now, I am going to take a chance that your OP was posted rather tongue-in-cheek for reasons that I, at present, cannot fathom. If you were being funny - then fine, and I will not post further. If you were not - then ask questions to which you would like answers from someone who is a Pagan of many years standing and a member of a Wiccan Coven, Priest and Witch in the Second Degree, and who would welcome intelligent enquiries from someone who really seeks knowledge rather than interminable questions, stupid questions to me, hilarious questions to them, and my answers being followed by pathetic, idiotic, and peurile comments from the WUM's and trolls, and I will answer them to the best of my ability.
To the horror or disgust of at least one poster, if I do not know the answer, I may search Google or ask fellow witches in order to try and answer you fiully.
Please understand, however, that certain information is, in a Coven, regarded as Oathbound - it may not be spoken of outside the Coven. If this is the case I will tell you so and I ask that you accept that answer as the only one that I can give you.
Over to you!
BB
)O(
Edited for typo's 19:16
Bit of a mix really Owl, taking the bung out of myself taking the bung out of the few things I've seen that admittedly only appear to me that they have a connection to paganism.
In serious mode, as far as I'm concerned there is no place any of the supernatural magic and mythical alleged happenings that so many take seriously.
We're now in the 21st century enlightenment happened years ago and anything we don't understand at present doesn't mean we'll never understand.
I find all of these types of belief including paganism, that haven't got any rational reasoned evidence that would support them, candidates for open season.
ippy
couple clichés in this
''were in the 21st century''
''Enlightenment happened years ago''
One word is missing - 'were [sic] in the 21st century' AND 'enlightenment happened years ago'.
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So, Paganism is basically a matter of dressing up and acquiring a bunch of 70s cliché or gothic cultural paraphernalia?
Yeah... what's your point?
Actually, and I hate to say this Ippy, but what you have described is the stereotypical witch beloved of Christians and other non-pagans just about everywhere, but at the least sensational end of the scale.
Now, I am not going to detail each and every thing that is in error in your post.
I have tried, more times than I care to think about, to describe what the actuality is - and it has been treated with nothing but ridicule and abuse. Rhiannon's paganism and mine are two entirely different things and this again has attracted dismissal of our beliefs because our detractots cannot see that they are part of the same belief They are, purely because Paganism is an umbrella term that covers an awfully large area of belief.
Now, I am going to take a chance that your OP was posted rather tongue-in-cheek for reasons that I, at present, cannot fathom. If you were being funny - then fine, and I will not post further. If you were not - then ask questions to which you would like answers from someone who is a Pagan of many years standing and a member of a Wiccan Coven, Priest and Witch in the Second Degree, and who would welcome intelligent enquiries from someone who really seeks knowledge rather than interminable questions, stupid questions to me, hilarious questions to them, and my answers being followed by pathetic, idiotic, and peurile comments from the WUM's and trolls, and I will answer them to the best of my ability.
To the horror or disgust of at least one poster, if I do not know the answer, I may search Google or ask fellow witches in order to try and answer you fiully.
Please understand, however, that certain information is, in a Coven, regarded as Oathbound - it may not be spoken of outside the Coven. If this is the case I will tell you so and I ask that you accept that answer as the only one that I can give you.
Over to you!
BB
)O(
Edited for typo's 19:16
Bit of a mix really Owl, taking the bung out of myself taking the bung out of the few things I've seen that admittedly only appear to me that they have a connection to paganism.
In serious mode, as far as I'm concerned there is no place any of the supernatural magic and mythical alleged happenings that so many take seriously.
We're now in the 21st century enlightenment happened years ago and anything we don't understand at present doesn't mean we'll never understand.
I find all of these types of belief including paganism, that haven't got any rational reasoned evidence that would support them, candidates for open season.
ippy
couple clichés in this
''were in the 21st century''
''Enlightenment happened years ago''
we're in the 21st century enlightenment happened years ago.
Owl, please be content I wrote in the OP as a bit of fun, a bung taking exercise, expecting and deserving any bung taking given in return, the rest, well I've already said.
ippy
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Just a thought do any of you Pagans want me to tell you any more than you don't already know about your Paganism, before this thread is consigned, just let me know and I'll get back to you?
ippy
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Just a thought do any of you Pagans want me to tell you any more than you don't already know about your Paganism, before this thread is consigned, just let me know and I'll get back to you?
ippy
HO HO Effing HO!
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Just a thought do any of you Pagans want me to tell you any more than you don't already know about your Paganism, before this thread is consigned, just let me know and I'll get back to you?
ippy
HO HO Effing HO!
Why are you giving me the impression that you think paganism shouldn't be subjected to ridicule, why's that?
ippy
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Because it matters to him, Ippy.
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Secularism means a lot to me and ridicule of my ideas of secularism or any other ideas I may have is a perfectly legitimate part of the heat in the kitchen of debate, I accept this and don't see the need to get upset about the realities of life, if I did find it so upsetting; what's that saying that starts: if you don't like the heat etc etc.
ippy
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Secularism means a lot to me and ridicule of my ideas of secularism or any other ideas I may have is a perfectly legitimate part of the heat in the kitchen of debate, I accept this and don't see the need to get upset about the realities of life, if I did find it so upsetting; what's that saying that starts: if you don't like the heat etc etc.
ippy
I accept that your view of the world, real or otherwise, is a valid to you as mine is to me.
You want to view my belief in a different light go ahead.
I see your belief - non-belief - as being the lazy option! It takes a certain amount of mental effort to sort out one belief path from another, or, in my case, to sort out which fork to take on the belief path that is paganism, yours takes no effort, mental or spiritual, just sit back and say that it is all rubbish and waiy for, or ask the adhernets for, proof of what they believe, knowing full weel that you cannot prove you belief as it is a truism that you cannot prove a negative.
In the case of Paganism it takes even more effort because it is so personal that you have to exercise your brain, your mind, day after day, to find which possible option works for you.
You are as much a bigot as BA, JC, Hope and Sassy or AdO or Gabriella.
Fine! Sit back and wait for death - which is the only thing in life that will finally prove which of us is right!
I am ready to accept that, at death, I may be proved wrong - are you?
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And here we go with matty's childish name calling. Nope, you are exactly what you have just called me.
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Secularism means a lot to me and ridicule of my ideas of secularism or any other ideas I may have is a perfectly legitimate part of the heat in the kitchen of debate, I accept this and don't see the need to get upset about the realities of life, if I did find it so upsetting; what's that saying that starts: if you don't like the heat etc etc.
ippy
. . . realities of life . . .
Here is the flaw in your argument - is either religion or secularism a reality of life?
I don't think so, I think they are both beliefs with no provable reality - this is the meaning of faith.
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Secularism means a lot to me and ridicule of my ideas of secularism or any other ideas I may have is a perfectly legitimate part of the heat in the kitchen of debate, I accept this and don't see the need to get upset about the realities of life, if I did find it so upsetting; what's that saying that starts: if you don't like the heat etc etc.
ippy
. . . realities of life . . .
Here is the flaw in your argument - is either religion or secularism a reality of life?
I don't think so, I think they are both beliefs with no provable reality - this is the meaning of faith.
The following saying of good old Thomas Paine was about some of the outrageous claims of religion but it equally pertains to enough of the elements of Paganism anyway, as follows:
"If we are to suppose a miracle to be something so entirely out of the course of what is called nature, that she must go out of that course to accomplish it; it raises the question in the mind very easily decided, which is: Is it more probable that nature should out of her course, or that a man should tell a lie"?
I'm not the one claiming anything supernatural, magical or mythical, so what do I need to prove, think about it, in the meantime the ball is firmly in your court Owl.
ippy
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Secularism means a lot to me and ridicule of my ideas of secularism or any other ideas I may have is a perfectly legitimate part of the heat in the kitchen of debate, I accept this and don't see the need to get upset about the realities of life, if I did find it so upsetting; what's that saying that starts: if you don't like the heat etc etc.
ippy
. . . realities of life . . .
Here is the flaw in your argument - is either religion or secularism a reality of life?
I don't think so, I think they are both beliefs with no provable reality - this is the meaning of faith.
The following saying of good old Thomas Paine was about some of the outrageous claims of religion but it equally pertains to enough of the elements of Paganism anyway, as follows:
"If we are to suppose a miracle to be something so entirely out of the course of what is called nature, that she must go out of that course to accomplish it; it raises the question in the mind very easily decided, which is: Is it more probable that nature should out of her course, or that a man should tell a lie"?
I'm not the one claiming anything supernatural, magical or mythical, so what do I need to prove, think about it, in the meantime the ball is firmly in your court Owl.
ippy
No, it is not! I reject his arguments, in this quote, as I reject yours - you cannot post anything that will, to me, justify your (nom)belief or convince me that my belieffs are any less valid than yours.
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Secularism means a lot to me and ridicule of my ideas of secularism or any other ideas I may have is a perfectly legitimate part of the heat in the kitchen of debate, I accept this and don't see the need to get upset about the realities of life, if I did find it so upsetting; what's that saying that starts: if you don't like the heat etc etc.
ippy
. . . realities of life . . .
Here is the flaw in your argument - is either religion or secularism a reality of life?
I don't think so, I think they are both beliefs with no provable reality - this is the meaning of faith.
The following saying of good old Thomas Paine was about some of the outrageous claims of religion but it equally pertains to enough of the elements of Paganism anyway, as follows:
"If we are to suppose a miracle to be something so entirely out of the course of what is called nature, that she must go out of that course to accomplish it; it raises the question in the mind very easily decided, which is: Is it more probable that nature should out of her course, or that a man should tell a lie"?
I'm not the one claiming anything supernatural, magical or mythical, so what do I need to prove, think about it, in the meantime the ball is firmly in your court Owl.
ippy
No, it is not! I reject his arguments, in this quote, as I reject yours - you cannot post anything that will, to me, justify your (nom)belief or convince me that my belieffs are any less valid than yours.
Why?
I'm not suggesting anything magical, mythical or anything superstitious to you, so what's there in that lot to reject?
-
Secularism means a lot to me and ridicule of my ideas of secularism or any other ideas I may have is a perfectly legitimate part of the heat in the kitchen of debate, I accept this and don't see the need to get upset about the realities of life, if I did find it so upsetting; what's that saying that starts: if you don't like the heat etc etc.
ippy
. . . realities of life . . .
Here is the flaw in your argument - is either religion or secularism a reality of life?
I don't think so, I think they are both beliefs with no provable reality - this is the meaning of faith.
The following saying of good old Thomas Paine was about some of the outrageous claims of religion but it equally pertains to enough of the elements of Paganism anyway, as follows:
"If we are to suppose a miracle to be something so entirely out of the course of what is called nature, that she must go out of that course to accomplish it; it raises the question in the mind very easily decided, which is: Is it more probable that nature should out of her course, or that a man should tell a lie"?
I'm not the one claiming anything supernatural, magical or mythical, so what do I need to prove, think about it, in the meantime the ball is firmly in your court Owl.
ippy
No, it is not! I reject his arguments, in this quote, as I reject yours - you cannot post anything that will, to me, justify your (nom)belief or convince me that my belieffs are any less valid than yours.
Why?
I'm not suggesting anything magical, mythical or anything superstitious to you, so what's there in that lot to reject?
Exactly that rejection of anything magical or mythical - superstitious, hmm, what precisely do you classify, in Paganism, as superstitious - i call not walking under ladders superstitious.
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Secularism means a lot to me and ridicule of my ideas of secularism or any other ideas I may have is a perfectly legitimate part of the heat in the kitchen of debate, I accept this and don't see the need to get upset about the realities of life, if I did find it so upsetting; what's that saying that starts: if you don't like the heat etc etc.
ippy
. . . realities of life . . .
Here is the flaw in your argument - is either religion or secularism a reality of life?
I don't think so, I think they are both beliefs with no provable reality - this is the meaning of faith.
The following saying of good old Thomas Paine was about some of the outrageous claims of religion but it equally pertains to enough of the elements of Paganism anyway, as follows:
"If we are to suppose a miracle to be something so entirely out of the course of what is called nature, that she must go out of that course to accomplish it; it raises the question in the mind very easily decided, which is: Is it more probable that nature should out of her course, or that a man should tell a lie"?
I'm not the one claiming anything supernatural, magical or mythical, so what do I need to prove, think about it, in the meantime the ball is firmly in your court Owl.
ippy
No, it is not! I reject his arguments, in this quote, as I reject yours - you cannot post anything that will, to me, justify your (nom)belief or convince me that my beliefs are any less valid than yours.
Why?
I'm not suggesting anything magical, mythical or anything superstitious to you, so what's there in that lot to reject?
Exactly that rejection of anything magical or mythical - superstitious, hmm, what precisely do you classify, in Paganism, as superstitious - i call not walking under ladders superstitious.
Rejecting things like the magical, mythical or superstitions since they have no viable evidence, I've ever heard of, that would support them it seems quite rational to me to reject them Owl, why not?
As for strange beliefs I would classify a belief in witches as a bit odd, just for one.
ippy
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Rejecting things like the magical, mythical or superstitions since they have no viable evidence, I've ever heard of, that would support them it seems quite rational to me to reject them Owl, why not?
As for strange beliefs I would classify a belief in witches as a bit odd, just for one.
ippy
Fine - if that is the way you want it I have no problem with that.
I can see no viable evidence to support your view that deities, witches, miracles (see also spells - they are the same things) or magic do not exist!
Impasse!
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Fine - if that is the way you want it I have no problem with that.
I can see no viable evidence to support your view that deities, witches, miracles (see also spells - they are the same things) or magic do not exist!
Impasse!
Don't do what Hope does, start getting into the negative proof area.
You need to find some viable evidence for anything you might wont me to believe, in short, you prove it I'll believe it.
Spells, witches and magic, Owl, you've got yourself a long job if you want to prove there are such things, but good luck with it anyway.
ippy
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These things are essentially ideas generated from our sub-conscious and imagination - can't see what difference it makes if they "exist" or not or if anyone is trying to "prove" them. The value they have is in helping people understand their own feelings and emotions.
Dreams aren't "real" but it doesn't mean they are not useful to us - they are certainly serving some function or other.
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Here is the flaw in your argument - is either religion or secularism a reality of life?
I don't think so, I think they are both beliefs with no provable reality - this is the meaning of faith.
I don't think secularism is a belief - it's a system intended to ensure that personal liberty to believe is protected whilst protecting everyone else's liberty to not have someone else's pitch forced onto them.
It may be adopted because of other beliefs, but I'm not sure it's a belief in or of itself.
O.
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These things are essentially ideas generated from our sub-conscious and imagination - can't see what difference it makes if they "exist" or not or if anyone is trying to "prove" them. The value they have is in helping people understand their own feelings and emotions.
Dreams aren't "real" but it doesn't mean they are not useful to us - they are certainly serving some function or other.
Yes dreams are according so the current theory are something like a clearing house dumping the daily not that useful excess goods, from the head, so I'm told, I'm not the expert.
I have close family involved with psychology, I get to hear the odd bit here and there, funny that they haven't put me forward for section, yet?
ippy
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Don't do what Hope does, start getting into the negative proof area.
You need to find some viable evidence for anything you might wont me to believe, in short, you prove it I'll believe it.
Spells, witches and magic, Owl, you've got yourself a long job if you want to prove there are such things, but good luck with it anyway.
ippy
How many more times have I got to say this - I do not give a tuppeny fuck what you believe or don't believe.
Just do not expect me to give up my belief because YOU don't believe it!
I do not have to prove anything to you or to anyone else as it is all, again I have said this a lot of times, a matter of faith, yours in you rejection/disbelief, mine in my acceptance/belief.
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I think you do care matty. Why else would you fly off your handle again and also resort to your offensive gutter language.
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I think you do care matty. Why else would you fly off your handle again and also resort to your offensive gutter language.
BEEP - The number you have called is busy - please leave a message.
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How many more times have I got to say this - I do not give a tuppeny fuck what you believe or don't believe.
Just do not expect me to give up my belief because YOU don't believe it!
I do not have to prove anything to you or to anyone else as it is all, again I have said this a lot of times, a matter of faith, yours in you rejection/disbelief, mine in my acceptance/belief.
I'm not saying anything about anything I believe in.
I don't expect you to give up believing in whatever you want to believe in.
All I'm saying is Just that I don't see the point in believing in anything, especially, where there is no credible evidence to support it and it's unlikely there ever will be, I find this type of belief thing puzzling, it does seem to be strange to me?
It's believing without a good reason to do so, it's irrational.
ippy
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I'm not saying anything about anything I believe in.
I don't expect you to give up believing in whatever you want to believe in.
All I'm saying is Just that I don't see the point in believing in anything, especially, where there is no credible evidence to support it and it's unlikely there ever will be, I find this type of belief thing puzzling, it does seem to be strange to me?
It's believing without a good reason to do so, it's irrational.
ippy
I think it's more irrational to keep criticising the beliefs of others when they are not trying to convince you in the first place.
You say you don't understand Sriram and now you have started on Owlswing.
Ever thought the problem could be yours?
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I think it's more irrational to keep criticising the beliefs of others when they are not trying to convince you in the first place.
You say you don't understand Sriram and now you have started on Owlswing.
Ever thought the problem could be yours?
Why try to debate anything that has no foundation in fact?
I don't think there's many of us that understand nonsense, or need to.
ippy
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It's not nonsense, there is more to life than your own philosophy ippy.
If you really lack the imagination to discuss a wide range of topics, why are you here?
A religion and ethics forum isn't going to be discussing facts, but ideas.
Different ideas.
Why do you come here, if you think everything else but facts, is nonsense?
At least the other posters here have the courage to put forward what they think ( at the risk of being disagreed with) , you just mock.
You never put forward a post about your own ideas.
Unless you are one of those who claim all their ideas are facts :o
It looks very much as though this response of yours to my previous post, where I could justifiably have been accused of actually expressing my ideas, may have missed something.
Surly ideas are not worth that much if the person expressing them can only assert whatever idea it is they may be trying to express and are unable to back up these ideas with anything credible.
At the risk of going off of topic and in answer to your suggestion that I never put forward a post about my own ideas, I often bring up my reasons for removing religions from their prominent place in our schools, come to that there shouldn't be a prominent place for religion in any school anywhere. (please note I didn't say religion should be banned from schools).
Unless I'm imagining things the above is an idea that I've, as you say, put forward.
I do from time to time express that some of the things I say are facts, yes I agree, usually in humour aimed at myself but there you go I keep forgetting we all have differing senses of humour.
Contrary to what it seems to me the way you view my posts, I have got to know, almost, a lot of the posters here on this forum and although plainly our views differ, I actually like the great majority of people that post here, I would be quite happy to meet most here and I'm sure I would enjoy their company and perhaps laugh at our differences.
The only person I have detested on the forum was that homophobic Welsh chap, thank goodness he's gone, what a
bigot.
The ridicule: as soon as someone says Jesus says or god teaches us, those types of statement, are plainly ridiculous and deserve any ridicule they get.
Sound, credible evidence would shut me up and I certainly would have to become devout, but be fair Rose the evidence, it's not very likely.
Funnily enough Rose I wish you well and have a good day.
ippy.
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Ippy,
"... as soon as someone says Jesus says or god teaches us, those types of statement, are plainly ridiculous and deserve any ridicule they get."
I have been told, if I don't like something, I should leave. I might extend the same, courteous, offer to you. :)
Of course, what such offers fail to realise is, that if we all adhered to such, the forum would be empty. :D
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Ippy,
"... as soon as someone says Jesus says or god teaches us, those types of statement, are plainly ridiculous and deserve any ridicule they get."
I have been told, if I don't like something, I should leave. I might extend the same, courteous, offer to you. :)
Of course, what such offers fail to realise is, that if we all adhered to such, the forum would be empty. :D
Oh yes of course that type of thing would be quite reasonabl to you, I think I'll wait for Sass to wriggle, hopefully without quoting the whole of the KJV in the process.
Hope you're feeling better now.
ippy
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Oh yes of course that type of thing would be quite reasonabl to you, I think I'll wait for Sass to wriggle, hopefully without quoting the whole of the KJV in the process.
Hope you're feeling better now.
ippy
Not wonderful, but thanks for asking.
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Oh yes of course that type of thing would be quite reasonabl to you, I think I'll wait for Sass to wriggle, hopefully without quoting the whole of the KJV in the process.
Hope you're feeling better now.
ippy
Not wonderful, but thanks for asking.
I gave my brother in law a really good birthday card this year, I'll do my best to describe it and yes he's still speaking to me:
There's a picture of a building front propped up, as per a film set, nothing behind it just the frontage, the next picture is the front of the building that looks realistic, it's a public building, over the main entrance it reads Hospital for Hypochondriacs with this chap that has just opened the door and finding there is nothing behind the frontage, scratching his head.
I curled up at the idea of the real cruelty of sending this card to my really good friend and brother in law.
He often sends me really distasteful cards for birthdays and christmas, I can't think why he does that?
ippy