Religion and Ethics Forum

General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Bubbles on November 24, 2015, 08:03:49 AM

Title: Feminism wrong about men?
Post by: Bubbles on November 24, 2015, 08:03:49 AM


I saw this article and thought how much I agree with it.

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Today's feminism teaches women to see themselves as victims and men as perverts, bullies and misogynists, says Natasha Devon


At the end of the session, one of the Society's senior members said: "It's great that you don't think there's any misogyny in your world, but I think if you talked to these men for long enough you'd find there were some pretty sinister ideas about women buried somewhere beneath the surface."
In that moment, I suddenly realised why so many aspects of the modern feminist movement in Britain irritate me so much. Don't misunderstand, I'd consider myself a feminist and I'm all for structural changes which ensure equal treatment of the sexes - the types that are working to ensure we have an equal number of female MPs and laws to prevent female genital mutilation, for example. But cultural "feminist" changes, the types that insist lads mags, Page 3 and wolf-whistling are automatically offensive and should therefore be scrapped from the public consciousness, I have always struggled to comprehend. For, at their crux is the notion that men are either genetically or socially conditioned to be evil. This explains why relatively harmless acts - an admiring glance, a whistle, a propensity for lads mags - are imbued with such weighty significance, often lazily labelled as "rapey".

Today's feminism teaches British women to see themselves as victims and victims cannot exist without a villain, in this instance – men. In order for this thesis to have any kind of logic, feminists have made sweeping, inaccurate judgments about an entire demographic, based on nothing more than their gender. Ironically, the exact practice they claim to be fighting.
Gender equality requires co-operation on all sides. As a humanist, I'd like to see today's feminists give men a bit more credit - they might just be surprised.



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/thinking-man/10831043/Modern-feminism-has-got-it-wrong-about-men.html




I've taken bits from it ( so you may want to read the whole thing for context) , but basically I think she is right.

What do you think?

Title: Re: Feminism wrong about men?
Post by: floo on November 24, 2015, 08:39:07 AM

I saw this article and thought how much I agree with it.

I've taken bits from it ( so you may want to read the whole thing for context) , but basically I think she is right.

What do you think?

If women are treated inappropriately by men and seen as a sexual target, like those who wolf whistle for instance that is WRONG, imo!
Title: Re: Feminism wrong about men?
Post by: Rhiannon on November 24, 2015, 09:05:35 AM
Actually in my experience modern feminism is about refusing to be a victim.
Title: Re: Feminism wrong about men?
Post by: Sriram on November 24, 2015, 09:30:57 AM


The problem is that male sex behavior is usually linked to some level of aggression and dominance due to the testosterone levels. Therefore, a certain level of dominance and control over the female is a part of the sexual drive.

Once we try to separate the two and expect the male to shed his dominance, his sex drive and thereby his fertility also could  get affected.  This could be one of the reasons for decreasing fertility in counties with relatively more feminism.....and more fertility in countries with relatively more male dominance. 

Just a thought.
Title: Re: Feminism wrong about men?
Post by: Outrider on November 24, 2015, 09:44:33 AM
The problem is that male sex behavior is usually linked to some level of aggression and dominance due to the testosterone levels. Therefore, a certain level of dominance and control over the female is a part of the sexual drive.

Men competing for harem of women is also a facet of that 'testosterone explains everything' mentality, but as a species we moved beyond that when we started talking.

The biological tendency to try to dominate is present in both genders, and isn't strongly linked to testosterone (although physical aggression is).

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Once we try to separate the two and expect the male to shed his dominance, his sex drive and thereby his fertility also could  get affected.  This could be one of the reasons for decreasing fertility in counties with relatively more feminism.....and more fertility in countries with relatively more male dominance.

Firstly, lower incidences of childbirth are not, necessarily, an indicator of a decrease in fertility so much as a control of fertility. Secondly, given that we could do with cooling the rate at which the population is increasing, fewer children would be a good thing.

Thirdly, and most importantly, given that we have overcome so many other limitations of our biology, why should we just 'roll over' and accept this one?

As to the original, I can see arguments on both sides. The women I know that appreciate an appreciative look or comment find that what they object is when a reciprocal attitude sees them accused of being a slut, or 'in your face'. It's not the overt sexualisation itself, it's that it happens in an atmosphere where they're not supposed to join in.

By contrast, there are women who dress attractively - deliberately - but then seem to get upset because people have reacted to that: that's an attitude I can't understand. I can understand wanting to feel attractive for your own benefit, but I don't see how you can then object to people noticing it.

Unfortunately, having spent time around a number of men, I'd have to agree that there are some fundamentally disturbing underlying ideas that are extremely widespread amongst them: the disparity of expectations on sexual experience is still the most telling, for me, where it's a badge of achievement for a man to have had many sexual partners, each one being a 'trophy' of some sort, whilst it's an abomination for a woman to do so.

O.
Title: Re: Feminism wrong about men?
Post by: Rhiannon on November 24, 2015, 09:55:25 AM
I think that the expectations around the number of sexual partners men and women 'should' have still revolves around the notion of ownership.

When it comes to how women dress, many men seem to be ignorant of the fact that women often set out not to impress them, but other women.
Title: Re: Feminism wrong about men?
Post by: King Oberon on November 24, 2015, 10:29:07 AM
Rhi I usually agree with most of your posts to a certain degree but both sexes whether consciously or sub-consciously dress to impress the opposite sex.. unless your gay of course  :)

Even a 50 year old like myself in a long (long) term relationship still doesn't want to look like a bag of totties to anyone but probably particularly the opposite sex.
Title: Re: Feminism wrong about men?
Post by: jeremyp on November 24, 2015, 10:33:30 AM
Actually in my experience modern feminism is about refusing to be a victim.

Which implies that the default position before they came along is that women were (or still are) perpetual victims (of men).
Title: Re: Feminism wrong about men?
Post by: Rhiannon on November 24, 2015, 10:58:59 AM
Rhi I usually agree with most of your posts to a certain degree but both sexes whether consciously or sub-consciously dress to impress the opposite sex.. unless your gay of course  :)

Even a 50 year old like myself in a long (long) term relationship still doesn't want to look like a bag of totties to anyone but probably particularly the opposite sex.

Trust me on this. There's a huge amount of competition among women to be thin, young and fashionable, and most of the time blokes are completely oblivious to it.
Title: Re: Feminism wrong about men?
Post by: Rhiannon on November 24, 2015, 11:04:00 AM
Which implies that the default position before they came along is that women were (or still are) perpetual victims (of men).

I think it is more a refusal to be victims to expectations and culture, as per my last point. The idea that women should see men as 'villains' is one I find baffling.
Title: Re: Feminism wrong about men?
Post by: Outrider on November 24, 2015, 11:07:29 AM
Rhi I usually agree with most of your posts to a certain degree but both sexes whether consciously or sub-consciously dress to impress the opposite sex.. unless your gay of course  :)

I've spoken with enough women to know that they are of the opinion it doesn't take much to impress most men, but they have their own pecking order and they are more than happy to critique whomever happens not to be there at the time.

I don't pretend to know why that is, but it's a consistent enough admission/description that I'm more than happy to accept their word that it's a reality.

O.
Title: Re: Feminism wrong about men?
Post by: Humph Warden Bennett on November 24, 2015, 11:36:30 AM
Modern feminism seems to be to be about whining (a la Laura Bates) rather than being confrontational (a la Germaine Greer).
Title: Re: Feminism wrong about men?
Post by: Shaker on November 24, 2015, 11:40:37 AM
Modern feminism seems to be to be about whining (a la Laura Bates) rather than being confrontational (a la Germaine Greer).
Ideally it would be about neither.
Title: Re: Feminism wrong about men?
Post by: ad_orientem on November 24, 2015, 02:54:04 PM
I think in the beginning feminsm really was just about equality of opportunity but since the sixties it then began to consider men as the enemy, even to the extent that the most radical think all men are essentially rapists. I also think there has been an attempt in the last few decades to make men effeminate.
Title: Re: Feminism wrong about men?
Post by: BashfulAnthony on November 24, 2015, 03:05:14 PM


I went to a feminist picnic earlier this year:  it was good, except nobody made any sandwiches.
Title: Re: Feminism wrong about men?
Post by: Samuel on November 24, 2015, 03:16:19 PM
I can see both sides of it too. I would say it is unquestionable that women still have to suffer various inequalities and are still more likely to be victims of sexual crime than men and that these matters need to be addressed urgently.

But, on the other hand, there can be a tendency amongst some feminists to generalise about men in an unhelpful way. The classic one for me is the idea that teenage boys have to be taught that 'no means no'. Ok, its important to raise awareness of rape but that attitude works from the assumption that all boys are rapists-in-waiting. Ultimately its just confrontational. More us and them. I prefer the feminism that says, hey, lets work together on these issues.

Oh, and I have come across plenty of male feminists who are guilty of the same sorts of things, so its not just women who are doing it.

the one that really irks me, and I have come across this A LOT, is the response to men who say 'but I'm a nice guy' that goes 'you don't get a meddle for being a decent human being, now shut up! We're talking about FEMINISM!'. Its a missed opportunity to say "great! come and help us out because there are plenty of shit heads left in the world"
Title: Re: Feminism wrong about men?
Post by: Outrider on November 24, 2015, 03:21:58 PM
Modern feminism seems to be to be about whining (a la Laura Bates) rather than being confrontational (a la Germaine Greer).

I think it's seen to be whining because a lot of it focusses around complaints. Complaints like:

In 78% of forced marriages in the UK the forced partner is the wife.
The full-time gender pay gap is around 10-13%. Part time it's 35%.
Women make up 17% of board directors in FTSE 100 companies, but 70% of minimum wage employees.
75% of parents with primary responsibility for children are women
Only 1 in 4 MPs is a woman. 35% of senior civil servants. 1 in 6 cabinet posts. 35% of local councillors and 13% of council leaders.
23% of national newspaper reporters are women. A quarter of those are specifically limited to 'womens' issues.
Media 'experts' are 4 times more likely to be male than female.
31% of speaking characters in film are women. Only 30% of characters of any sort are women.
9% of film writers and 15% of directors are women.
22% of police officers are women, and only 11% of senior police officers
Despite outperforming males at GCSE and A-Level science, girls are less likely to take scientific subjects at university; only 40% of medical doctors are female, but over 80% of nurses

There are, of course, any number of complex reasons for many of these, and some of them are rightly pitched at least partly as 'choices', but there are cultural influences and expectations levering those chances which also need to be addressed.

O.
Title: Re: Feminism wrong about men?
Post by: Outrider on November 24, 2015, 03:24:29 PM
I think in the beginning feminsm really was just about equality of opportunity but since the sixties it then began to consider men as the enemy, even to the extent that the most radical think all men are essentially rapists. I also think there has been an attempt in the last few decades to make men effeminate.

Feminism still is about equality of opportunity.

Yes, there are some radicals who go beyond that to anti-man sentiment, but then there are men (and, in my subjective opinion more of these men than there are anti-men women) who think that women are there to look attractive, spawn children and bring beer and sex organs on demand.

Both of those groups are small enough that they aren't a significant factor in the debate - the problem is the large cluster of mostly men, but some women, who think that equality has been somehow achieved.

O.
Title: Re: Feminism wrong about men?
Post by: Sriram on November 24, 2015, 03:25:32 PM

Thirdly, and most importantly, given that we have overcome so many other limitations of our biology, why should we just 'roll over' and accept this one?

O.

If as atheists believe, we are only biology, how can 'we' overcome our biology? What do you mean by 'we'? 
Title: Re: Feminism wrong about men?
Post by: Outrider on November 24, 2015, 03:31:44 PM
But, on the other hand, there can be a tendency amongst some feminists to generalise about men in an unhelpful way. The classic one for me is the idea that teenage boys have to be taught that 'no means no'.

The lesson that's actually being taught is the lack of a clear 'yes' means 'no'. The lesson that still needs to be put out and clearly understood is that there is no situation where what a woman is wearing justifies raping her, no situation where how many sexual partners a woman has previously had justifies raping her, and no situation in which where a woman happens to be at a particular time justifies raping her. That canard still plays constantly in trials: Why was she there? Why was she wearing something that provocative? Why was she out at 2am? Why had she had 3 boyfriends in the previous 3 months?

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Ok, its important to raise awareness of rape but that attitude works from the assumption that all boys are rapists-in-waiting.

There is clear evidence that people - in general, not specifically boys - have a lack of clarity of exactly what constitutes consent. I have only one real issue with the current direction of legal and educational efforts; I fail to understand how someone can be considered too drunk to have given informed consent, but someone can't be considered too drunk to have not recognised that.

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Ultimately its just confrontational. More us and them. I prefer the feminism that says, hey, lets work together on these issues.

And the majority do - there are any number of pieces out there pointing out that what women really need is more people, men and women, to stand up and say that they are feminists. Instead what happens is that - for all sorts of reasons, many of which are to do with our sensationalist media outlets - the radical fringe and 'outraged of Runcorn' are the voices that get airtime and the rational middle disappears.

O.
Title: Re: Feminism wrong about men?
Post by: Outrider on November 24, 2015, 03:42:48 PM
If as atheists believe, we are only biology, how can 'we' overcome our biology?

Medicine would seem to be the most obvious.

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What do you mean by 'we'?

Society at large, the legal and cultural framework in which this all happens.

Two examples, one general and one specific.

Parental leave, as of this year, can be shared, which is an advance in itself. However, as a mother you can take your leave in whatever format you like up to the allotment, in the qualifying period. As a partner, you can legally be limited to booking your allotment in a maximum of three blocks. This serves to make it easier for women to arrange their leave around childbirth, encouraging partners (typically men) to stay in work and putting the burden of primary carer firmly on the women.

Most couples, given the demands of nursing, would probably opt for the mother taking the bulk of the leave anyway, and the system works well for women going straight back to work and men staying at home, but for couples who wish to share the burden it's made difficult: for instance, you can't without a consenting employer as a partner take your time as 2 days a week, but as a mother you can.

Our specific case: our daughter is profoundly autistic. She is in a good school which caters for her needs extremely well. My wife also works in a (mainstream) school, whilst I work in the private sector. My work demands are much more flexible, which means we always put my name and my number down a the primary contact. Whenever something happens at school or on the transport to and from the school, my wife is always called first, because culturally the assumption is made that she'd come running because she's the mother.

She cares, and when she's called she does come; but I care, and when I'm called I come, too, and me coming disrupts our lives much less, but that isn't considered because - as I was expressly told - 'children need their mothers at a time like that'.

O.
Title: Re: Feminism wrong about men?
Post by: Rhiannon on November 24, 2015, 04:02:04 PM
I agree very much with O's post in #19. And a recent report on the BBC showed that in a consent lesson looking at a fictional scenario teenage girls judged the rape victim more harshly than the boys did. Girls need educating just as much, that nothing they do makes them culpable if they are raped.
Title: Re: Feminism wrong about men?
Post by: Samuel on November 24, 2015, 04:05:35 PM
Whenever something happens at school or on the transport to and from the school, my wife is always called first, because culturally the assumption is made that she'd come running because she's the mother.


This, to me, is actually one of the more troublesome blockages. I feel there is a lot of energy expended in breaking down cultural walls for women and girls, which is fantastic, but there is a risk of creating an unsustainable one-way flow. Basically 'lets all be blokes!'.

It is still, broadly speaking, less acceptable for a man to take on traditionally feminine rolls than it is for women to take on traditionally male roles. I have a son and daughter and that's where I notice it the most. As for myself I am more sensitive to those occasions where certain expectations are made of me based on my sex. Its small beer in comparison to what women have to endure but it all needs to change.

The fact of the matter is though that I am more sensitive to these things BECAUSE I am a feminist. That is why ultimately, feminism can only be a good thing.

p.s. ref the bit about 'no means no' - I wasn't referring to formal education, simply an attitude I have encountered in informal settings. I totally agree that consent is something that needs to be discussed in schools as part of a comprehensive sex ed programme.
Title: Re: Feminism wrong about men?
Post by: Humph Warden Bennett on November 24, 2015, 05:03:43 PM
I think it's seen to be whining because a lot of it focusses around complaints. Complaints like:

In 78% of forced marriages in the UK the forced partner is the wife.
The full-time gender pay gap is around 10-13%. Part time it's 35%.
Women make up 17% of board directors in FTSE 100 companies, but 70% of minimum wage employees.
75% of parents with primary responsibility for children are women
Only 1 in 4 MPs is a woman. 35% of senior civil servants. 1 in 6 cabinet posts. 35% of local councillors and 13% of council leaders.
23% of national newspaper reporters are women. A quarter of those are specifically limited to 'womens' issues.
Media 'experts' are 4 times more likely to be male than female.
31% of speaking characters in film are women. Only 30% of characters of any sort are women.
9% of film writers and 15% of directors are women.
22% of police officers are women, and only 11% of senior police officers
Despite outperforming males at GCSE and A-Level science, girls are less likely to take scientific subjects at university; only 40% of medical doctors are female, but over 80% of nurses

There are, of course, any number of complex reasons for many of these, and some of them are rightly pitched at least partly as 'choices', but there are cultural influences and expectations levering those chances which also need to be addressed.

O.

OK

1. Forced marriages is a cultural thing, it does not apply across the board.

2. In a working career which I regret to say has lasted almost forty years, I have never worked anywhere where women were paid less than men simply because they were women. Never.

3. I cannot get too upset about a handful of rich women who want to leapfrog a slightly larger handful of rich men onto a FTSE 100 board. I care rather more about receptionists, security guards, cleaners, administrators, etc, and whether they have enough money to live on.

4. Almost 100 % of those people who give birth are women. Some things you just have to get on with. If one partner has responsibility for the child, it means the other one has to do more work outside the home.

5. I don't care about politicians any more than I care about FTSE 100 boards. I don't think many others do either. One could equally argue that Lay Magistrates have the greater impact on more peoples lives than the senior judiciary, and a majority of the former are women. That ain't doing too much for those women who appear before them charged with theft because they had to steal to feed their families.

6. I sometimes read the Daily Wail, it's a guilty pleasure of mine. But I don't blame the offspring bearing gender for writing "Kylie Krudder shows daring side boob" stuff, if it sells, so be it.

7 So "boys" films involving violence & explosions don't have that many female characters. Most of the characters in such films get killed, you could argue that it is discrimination to imply that the death of a male character means less than the death of a female character.

8. I think that is what is usually termed "A First World problem".

9. If women don't want to join the police in huge numbers, that is their choice.

10. So not everybody wants to do science? Not all women want to work in HR either, but nobody grumbles about the lack of men in such posts. A 3:2 ratio for doctors does not strike me as being unduly lopsided. As for nurses, have you ever met a male dental hygienist?

The most absurd thing about current feminism is that it calls for abortion on demand as a woman's right to do what she wants with her body, yet it calls for prostitution to be outlawed.
Title: Re: Feminism wrong about men?
Post by: Rhiannon on November 24, 2015, 05:34:51 PM
But Humph, it isn't just about what bothers you personally or not.
Title: Re: Feminism wrong about men?
Post by: Outrider on November 24, 2015, 08:09:45 PM
1. Forced marriages is a cultural thing, it does not apply across the board.

So it's irrelevant, then?

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2. In a working career which I regret to say has lasted almost forty years, I have never worked anywhere where women were paid less than men simply because they were women. Never.

And therefore it doesn't happen? Whilst you might have been in this situation, personally I've never worked anywhere where people discussed openly what they were paid, but I've only been going for just shy of twenty years. The statistics, though, in pretty much every combination people care to measure, consistently show that like-for-like, qualification equalised, men are paid less than women at every level except minimum wage, and the higher the earning bracket the higher the proportional difference.

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3. I cannot get too upset about a handful of rich women who want to leapfrog a slightly larger handful of rich men onto a FTSE 100 board. I care rather more about receptionists, security guards, cleaners, administrators, etc, and whether they have enough money to live on.

It's symptomatic - if there are fewer board members there are fewer figures of inspiration for women and more tendency for men to be promoted as natural replacements for the men who are leaving. The disproportionate balance continues down through the upper echelons of the top companies.

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4. Almost 100 % of those people who give birth are women. Some things you just have to get on with. If one partner has responsibility for the child, it means the other one has to do more work outside the home.

Why does it? Why does the biological fact that women give birth mean that ongoing child- and home-care fall primarily on them?

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5. I don't care about politicians any more than I care about FTSE 100 boards. I don't think many others do either. One could equally argue that Lay Magistrates have the greater impact on more peoples lives than the senior judiciary, and a majority of the former are women. That ain't doing too much for those women who appear before them charged with theft because they had to steal to feed their families.

Perhaps - only perhaps, but it's a reasonable proposal - MPs would have a more balanced and representative approach if they were a more balanced and representative group? Again, though, its about the message it sends as much as the practical, direct effects.

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6. I sometimes read the Daily Wail, it's a guilty pleasure of mine. But I don't blame the offspring bearing gender for writing "Kylie Krudder shows daring side boob" stuff, if it sells, so be it.

Do you not? You don't think that the consistent sexualisation of women and reduction of women to ratings of attractiveness and clothing choices in all walks of life is indicative of a male editorship and writing detail for whom those are the relevant considerations of women?

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7 So "boys" films involving violence & explosions don't have that many female characters. Most of the characters in such films get killed, you could argue that it is discrimination to imply that the death of a male character means less than the death of a female character.

The fact that characters are less often women, the people we are supposed to engage, the 'heroes' in every sense are more often men than women doesn't strike you as somehow wrong-headed?

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8. I think that is what is usually termed "A First World problem".

It's a first world application of an unfortunately universal problem.

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9. If women don't want to join the police in huge numbers, that is their choice.

And our problem. And their problem.

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10. So not everybody wants to do science? Not all women want to work in HR either, but nobody grumbles about the lack of men in such posts. A 3:2 ratio for doctors does not strike me as being unduly lopsided. As for nurses, have you ever met a male dental hygienist?

And, again, you make my point. Why is that girls leave school better qualified to be doctors, but are discouraged from doing so: and when they do they are less likely to take surgical paths and more likely to become general practitioners? What is it that discourages girls from these paths? It doesn't strike you as strange that for every 2 women who go into medicine 3 men do, despite them being less qualified on average? In research science it's even worse, and engineering and computing still worse again: these places that are shaping the technologies of tomorrow are desperately short of the input and life experience of half of the population, because as a society we discourage girls from entering those professions.

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The most absurd thing about current feminism is that it calls for abortion on demand as a woman's right to do what she wants with her body, yet it calls for prostitution to be outlawed.

In some instances, and when they call for it to be outlawed it's typically because the social and economic realities mean that the vast majority of women in prostitution are there because they feel they have few other options. Personally - as with the drug trade - I'm in favour of decriminalising it to allow women who are in the position the autonomy, official recognition and protection that should just be a given in a modern society.

 Given the impositions place on women because of bearing children, whilst I have reservations about the current term limits on abortions, I'm fully in favour of the free access to it.

O.
Title: Re: Feminism wrong about men?
Post by: Sriram on November 25, 2015, 06:53:14 AM

Social equality is one thing and insisting that equal number of women and men should work in all areas including doctors, engineers, business, military, police and so on is quite another thing.  I don't see why they should be forced to do so (through social coercion).

Women should be given equal opportunities and... that's it. What they choose to do is their affair. Its possible that in most cases they might choose occupations that are  in line with their biology, psychology, family roles, cultural requirements and personal preferences. Why is that a problem?


Title: Re: Feminism wrong about men?
Post by: Sassy on November 25, 2015, 08:26:58 AM



I saw this article and thought how much I agree with it.

Quote

Today's feminism teaches women to see themselves as victims and men as perverts, bullies and misogynists, says Natasha Devon


At the end of the session, one of the Society's senior members said: "It's great that you don't think there's any misogyny in your world, but I think if you talked to these men for long enough you'd find there were some pretty sinister ideas about women buried somewhere beneath the surface."
In that moment, I suddenly realised why so many aspects of the modern feminist movement in Britain irritate me so much. Don't misunderstand, I'd consider myself a feminist and I'm all for structural changes which ensure equal treatment of the sexes - the types that are working to ensure we have an equal number of female MPs and laws to prevent female genital mutilation, for example. But cultural "feminist" changes, the types that insist lads mags, Page 3 and wolf-whistling are automatically offensive and should therefore be scrapped from the public consciousness, I have always struggled to comprehend. For, at their crux is the notion that men are either genetically or socially conditioned to be evil. This explains why relatively harmless acts - an admiring glance, a whistle, a propensity for lads mags - are imbued with such weighty significance, often lazily labelled as "rapey".

Today's feminism teaches British women to see themselves as victims and victims cannot exist without a villain, in this instance – men. In order for this thesis to have any kind of logic, feminists have made sweeping, inaccurate judgments about an entire demographic, based on nothing more than their gender. Ironically, the exact practice they claim to be fighting.
Gender equality requires co-operation on all sides. As a humanist, I'd like to see today's feminists give men a bit more credit - they might just be surprised.



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/thinking-man/10831043/Modern-feminism-has-got-it-wrong-about-men.html




I've taken bits from it ( so you may want to read the whole thing for context) , but basically I think she is right.

What do you think?


Morning Rose,

I do not agree with all she has said.
Women who have been raped refuse to see themselves as victims and I find it offensive for this woman to speak out and say such things.


Quote
But cultural "feminist" changes, the types that insist lads mags, Page 3 and wolf-whistling are automatically offensive and should therefore be scrapped from the public consciousness, I have always struggled to comprehend. For, at their crux is the notion that men are either genetically or socially conditioned to be evil. This explains why relatively harmless acts - an admiring glance, a whistle, a propensity for lads mags - are imbued with such weighty significance, often lazily labelled as "rapey".

I believe that cultural 'feminist' do not make the above to be offensive rather they believe lad's mags single women out at sexual objects rather than human beings.
There in lies the problems. We have people here who in their own country rape a woman or a child and get away with it. What message does it send out to them having page 3 girls and lads mags?
It is rather about the individuals perception than. What affect does these mags have on the young lads in society. Given mans history of pillage and rape do you think it is good for men to grow up
with the thought it is okay for women to bear all to satisfy the male lust? Because the truth is, that if men did respect women they would not buy the magazines would they?

It is all about the messages they send how. The other day on tv they were discussing about sex dolls of children being made for perverts. It is dangerous to ignore the fact sexual predators and
perverts exist despite what we believe about lad mags.
Whilst wolf whistling does no harm not everyone woman wants to be wolf whistled at, nor do they want their bottom pinching.


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Today's feminism teaches British women to see themselves as victims and victims cannot exist without a villain, in this instance – men.

I think it is utter rubbish.... Feminism is about all that is good about being a woman and progression which makes women treated the same without making it about the battle of the sexes.
Sometimes they confuse manners and treating women properly with feminism.

Every woman has the right to live her life without being seen simply as a sex object, baby making machine and only fit for being a home maker. I think some men would probably be offended
at the rubbish this woman is spouting.

A woman want to be treated equal to men in the work place, politics etc. But we need to remember that women are the gentler sex and should be treated with the respect.
That women are more likely to be raped. Be the partner beaten or killed by jealous husband and treated as a sex object.

If anything women do not see all men as rapist or themselves as victims.


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In order for this thesis to have any kind of logic, feminists have made sweeping, inaccurate judgments about an entire demographic, based on nothing more than their gender. Ironically, the exact practice they claim to be fighting.
Gender equality requires co-operation on all sides. As a humanist, I'd like to see today's feminists give men a bit more credit - they might just be surprised.

She justs wants to make a name for herself and it is working... Truth is no woman sees herself as a victim. They are survivors in a male dominated world.
Knowing what other women go through elsewhere we can certainly say that British Women do not see themselves as victims. We have right of say and voice our opinions.

Using lad mags and rape is not about feminism the true meaning of equality in the work place and politics etc.

Women in the past were made out to be victims. Rape still happens.. Lad mags still portray women as sexual objects. But true feminism is about equality.
We will never be able to pee up a wall and men will never be able to have babies. Physical factors which are true and make us different in our male and female roles.
But we can all do the same jobs. However, having said that... I would never have wanted to go down a coal mine. I would not have liked been in the Titanic when men had to let the women
and children go first. You see as humans we all have the ability to be afraid and all equal in our emotions and love.  So maybe had the Titanic had Muslim men and women on it, the women would have been left behind and the young girls whilst the men and boys put in the life boats...
Civilization is different the world over and feminism isn't even a thought let alone a reality.

This referred to British Women. WHY? Because women are victims in other countries. Here they can speak out for themselves. But that does not make our personal opinions the right ones.
But we should not confuse being defined as a sexual object as being part of feminism. Or making us victims.
Title: Re: Feminism wrong about men?
Post by: Bubbles on November 25, 2015, 08:35:24 AM
You have raised some interesting and relevant points Sassy  :) and given me something to think on.

Thanks

 :)
🌹
Title: Re: Feminism wrong about men?
Post by: Outrider on November 25, 2015, 09:23:53 AM
Social equality is one thing and insisting that equal number of women and men should work in all areas including doctors, engineers, business, military, police and so on is quite another thing.  I don't see why they should be forced to do so (through social coercion).

Nobody's suggesting that, the figures and the commentary suggest that rather social pressures and norms are restricting women who want to partake of these opportunities, and colouring their upbringing to encourage them not to want to partake of these opportunities.

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Women should be given equal opportunities and... that's it.

Yep.

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What they choose to do is their affair.

Yes, but the way they are raised and the culture and society in which they are raised colour those choices.

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Its possible that in most cases they might choose occupations that are  in line with their biology, psychology, family roles, cultural requirements and personal preferences. Why is that a problem?

That isn't a problem, necessarily, but the evidence suggests that they don't 'in most cases' want to be limited to those occupations that you think are in line with their biology or 'psychology' (as though there were significant differences there). Why should they be limited by a preconceived notion of 'family roles', it's for them and their family to decide what their family roles will be?

Their self-reported experience of modern life suggests that this isn't happening yet, that they are wanting opportunities that are being denied them, and that cultural clues are discouraging them from trying.

O.
Title: Re: Feminism wrong about men?
Post by: jeremyp on November 25, 2015, 12:58:56 PM
I think it is more a refusal to be victims to expectations and culture, as per my last point. The idea that women should see men as 'villains' is one I find baffling.
As a man, obviously I agree with that, but I can see why some feminists have that opinion.
Title: Re: Feminism wrong about men?
Post by: Sriram on November 25, 2015, 03:14:11 PM
Nobody's suggesting that, the figures and the commentary suggest that rather social pressures and norms are restricting women who want to partake of these opportunities, and colouring their upbringing to encourage them not to want to partake of these opportunities.

Yep.

Yes, but the way they are raised and the culture and society in which they are raised colour those choices.

That isn't a problem, necessarily, but the evidence suggests that they don't 'in most cases' want to be limited to those occupations that you think are in line with their biology or 'psychology' (as though there were significant differences there). Why should they be limited by a preconceived notion of 'family roles', it's for them and their family to decide what their family roles will be?

Their self-reported experience of modern life suggests that this isn't happening yet, that they are wanting opportunities that are being denied them, and that cultural clues are discouraging them from trying.

O.

Some obvious problems I can see...

1. Men and women are identical and are interchangeable.

2. The psychology and natural inclinations of women are not biological (genetic & epigenetic) but only cultural.

3. Working outside is of primary importance not just to earn a living but as a social necessity. Families being secondary or incidental.

4. Work outside is a symbol of equality.

5. Upbringing of girls should be such that they should not be aware of  any special gender related capabilities or limitations. People should raise all children in a gender neutral way.

6. Culture and tradition are of no significance at all and should be eradicated.

Title: Re: Feminism wrong about men?
Post by: Outrider on November 25, 2015, 03:46:28 PM
1. Men and women are identical and are interchangeable.

And, presumably, made of straw.

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2. The psychology and natural inclinations of women are not biological (genetic & epigenetic) but only cultural.

No, but the cultural elements are there and can be improved.

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3. Working outside is of primary importance not just to earn a living but as a social necessity. Families being secondary or incidental.

No, having the freedom to choose whether to be a home-maker or a bread-winner is important, rather than having a cultural or social expectation make the decision for you.

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4. Work outside is a symbol of equality.

No, having the same opportunity to do so is the equality.

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5. Upbringing of girls should be such that they should not be aware of  any special gender related capabilities or limitations. People should raise all children in a gender neutral way.

If only anyone had said that. Children should be raised aware of the differences of biology, but those should not be exaggerated by cultural bias.

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6. Culture and tradition are of no significance at all and should be eradicated.

Culture and tradition are great reasons to celebrate the things we do well, and great reasons to remember the things we used to do wrongly. They're shit reasons to keep doing things badly.

O.
Title: Re: Feminism wrong about men?
Post by: King Oberon on November 25, 2015, 04:13:55 PM
Trust me on this. There's a huge amount of competition among women to be thin, young and fashionable, and most of the time blokes are completely oblivious to it.

It may appear that way but  most young males do spend their lives trying to match what ever ideal is in their heads to fit in with their mates and attract the opposite sex.

I'll grant that most advertising is aimed towards women but peer pressure (and individual pressure) applies to all.

When I was a kid I was a punk .. it took me hours to perfect the couldn't care less what I was wearing look!!   ;D
Title: Re: Feminism wrong about men?
Post by: Rhiannon on November 25, 2015, 04:26:37 PM
As a man, obviously I agree with that, but I can see why some feminists have that opinion.

I can too, but it's not only unhelpful, it's untrue.
Title: Re: Feminism wrong about men?
Post by: Sriram on November 25, 2015, 04:42:21 PM


Outrider,

What is cultural bias and how do we decide it?  Who decides what the good and bad aspects of culture are? And which culture (period, region) should be the base to decide this on?
Title: Re: Feminism wrong about men?
Post by: Outrider on November 26, 2015, 08:50:50 AM
What is cultural bias and how do we decide it?

In this context, it's the idea that there are predetermined gender roles in society beyond the biological limitations.

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Who decides what the good and bad aspects of culture are?

The people within that culture, in particular the ones that can show that they are being disadvantaged by those aspects.

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And which culture (period, region) should be the base to decide this on?

The ideal one that gives everyone as much of what they want as we can managed whilst putting the fewest restrictions on them we can get away with.

O.
Title: Re: Feminism wrong about men?
Post by: Hope on November 26, 2015, 09:24:43 AM

The problem is that male sex behavior is usually linked to some level of aggression and dominance due to the testosterone levels. Therefore, a certain level of dominance and control over the female is a part of the sexual drive.

Once we try to separate the two and expect the male to shed his dominance, his sex drive and thereby his fertility also could  get affected.  This could be one of the reasons for decreasing fertility in counties with relatively more feminism.....and more fertility in countries with relatively more male dominance. 

Just a thought.
An interesting set of ideas, Sri.  And totally untrue in my opinion.  If infertility is caused by anything, it would appear to me to have to do with the chemicals that are used in a lot of processed foods.  If one thinks about it, processed foods and 'feminist' thinking (whatever that might be) do seem to have an element of corrollation.
Title: Re: Feminism wrong about men?
Post by: floo on November 26, 2015, 09:27:18 AM
An interesting set of ideas, Sri.  And totally untrue in my opinion.  If infertility is caused by anything, it would appear to me to have to do with the chemicals that are used in a lot of processed foods.  If one thinks about it, processed foods and 'feminist' thinking (whatever that might be) do seem to have an element of corrollation.

What on earth has feminism to do with infertility? I agree that it is likely to have much more to do with the chemicals we imbibe!
Title: Re: Feminism wrong about men?
Post by: Udayana on November 26, 2015, 09:47:57 AM
In this context, it's the idea that there are predetermined gender roles in society beyond the biological limitations.

The people within that culture, in particular the ones that can show that they are being disadvantaged by those aspects.

The ideal one that gives everyone as much of what they want as we can managed whilst putting the fewest restrictions on them we can get away with.

O.

You don't think your "ideal" itself just reflects a cultural bias?
Title: Re: Feminism wrong about men?
Post by: Hope on November 26, 2015, 10:03:06 AM
The ideal one that gives everyone as much of what they want as we can managed whilst putting the fewest restrictions on them we can get away with.
And is that your ideal, or the ultimate ideal, O?  Remember that, whatever we like to believe, women almost always do more family-related work than men.  This ranges from giving birth to children (something that men currently are unable to do) to homemaking.
Title: Re: Feminism wrong about men?
Post by: Outrider on November 26, 2015, 10:17:57 AM
You don't think your "ideal" itself just reflects a cultural bias?

Any cultural choice is going to be a 'cultural bias' - this has the benefit being the least intrusive, a culture of individual choice.

O.
Title: Re: Feminism wrong about men?
Post by: Hope on November 26, 2015, 10:48:29 AM
Any cultural choice is going to be a 'cultural bias' - this has the benefit being the least intrusive, a culture of individual choice.
Which, in sociological terms, isn't always the best type of culture, if society is seeking to be a cohesive entity. 
Title: Re: Feminism wrong about men?
Post by: Outrider on November 26, 2015, 10:58:36 AM
And is that your ideal, or the ultimate ideal, O?

I'd say both, of course, but then everyone thinks that their ideal is THE ideal.

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Remember that, whatever we like to believe, women almost always do more family-related work than men.  This ranges from giving birth to children (something that men currently are unable to do) to homemaking.

That's sort of the point. Why do they? Childbirth is a biological factor, that can't be accommodated, but why are women overwhelmingly forced to choose between childcare and career? Why aren't children considered, in any real way, an impediment to a man's career? Why is the presumption made that in a relationship a woman will be the primary carer?

I know that, historically, this has been the case, but it doesn't necessarily need to be so. The ideal is when individual couples make that choice for themselves, or share the responsibility as they choose, and we have a culture that's accepting of that practice.

Man and women who wish to stay home and be child-rearers - presuming they have the financial freedom - can choose to do so, and men and women who would rather go out to work can do so equally. Personal choice rather than cultural expectation, it limits no-one.

O.
Title: Re: Feminism wrong about men?
Post by: Outrider on November 26, 2015, 11:00:58 AM
Which, in sociological terms, isn't always the best type of culture, if society is seeking to be a cohesive entity.

How do you know? Where have we tried a culture without strong gender biases? The closest I can think of is Northern Europe, and they seem quite happy and cohesive.

O.
Title: Re: Feminism wrong about men?
Post by: Sriram on November 26, 2015, 01:31:56 PM


I know that, historically, this has been the case, but it doesn't necessarily need to be so. The ideal is when individual couples make that choice for themselves, or share the responsibility as they choose, and we have a culture that's accepting of that practice.

Man and women who wish to stay home and be child-rearers - presuming they have the financial freedom - can choose to do so, and men and women who would rather go out to work can do so equally. Personal choice rather than cultural expectation, it limits no-one.

O.

This is not new. Traditionally in most countries the poorer sections of the society have always managed only like that. Women iin the lower classes have always (for thousands of years) worked in the fields , as maids, laundry women, vegetable vendors and so on.... and both  men and women have shared the household tasks. 

Its not about personal choice....its about adjustments and working together for a common goal such as family welfare.

The moment we emphasize personal choice instead of adjustments and joint responsibility....we sow the seeds of discord automatically.
Title: Re: Feminism wrong about men?
Post by: Outrider on November 26, 2015, 02:07:23 PM
This is not new. Traditionally in most countries the poorer sections of the society have always managed only like that. Women iin the lower classes have always (for thousands of years) worked in the fields , as maids, laundry women, vegetable vendors and so on.... and both  men and women have shared the household tasks.

And men were sent to learn trades, and the responsibility for elevating a family was down to the man, regardless of the talent or capacity of the women.

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Its not about personal choice....its about adjustments and working together for a common goal such as family welfare.

And, in a given family, if the woman is smarter or better equipped to earn, currently the systemic, cultural biases work against her achieving as a breadwinner what a similarly capable man would.

In families that choose not to have children, what's a woman supposed to be doing then?

It is for individual families to decide what is best for them, not for a social template to be forced upon them.

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The moment we emphasize personal choice instead of adjustments and joint responsibility....we sow the seeds of discord automatically.

And yet the societies that are the most free and most equal are amongst the most stable, wealthiest and happiest. Where is the discord inherent in people choosing their own path?

O.
Title: Re: Feminism wrong about men?
Post by: King Oberon on November 26, 2015, 03:06:45 PM
Here Sriram,

Hmm India, gender equality... nah I don't think so.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_inequality_in_India

Title: Re: Feminism wrong about men?
Post by: Samuel on November 26, 2015, 03:18:05 PM
why are women overwhelmingly forced to choose between childcare and career?

Not disagreeing, but I would add that this is a fairly middle class problem. First of all the idea of a career it refers to is not one that a lot of women would experience in their life time, or men for that matter. Secondly, a lot of women simply don't have that choice. They have to return to work because they need the income.

Like I said, I'm not trying to undermine the point, as its important and real, its just important to remember that feminism can easily become dominated by a middle class perspective unless we are careful. On a similar note I recall a woman's hour special about feminism that discussed this and also the fact that women of ethnic minorities often perceive 'feminism' to be for 'white people only'. Worrying.
Title: Re: Feminism wrong about men?
Post by: Outrider on November 26, 2015, 03:24:59 PM
Not disagreeing, but I would add that this is a fairly middle class problem. First of all the idea of a career it refers to is not one that a lot of women would experience in their life time, or men for that matter. Secondly, a lot of women simply don't have that choice. They have to return to work because they need the income.

And that's part of the same cultural pressures, too - woman are 70% of minimum wage workers, more likely to be in part-time employment despite the fact that at every level of educational achievement women outperform men.

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Like I said, I'm not trying to undermine the point, as its important and real, its just important to remember that feminism can easily become dominated by a middle class perspective unless we are careful. On a similar note I recall a woman's hour special about feminism that discussed this and also the fact that women of ethnic minorities often perceive 'feminism' to be for 'white people only'. Worrying.

There is a cultural perception of race that is problematic, and the economic inequalities in our society are not only problematic but growing - it's easiest to focus on the impact in the 'middle' areas, because they in some ways are the most obvious and the easiest to find figures for, but the pressures extend (in different ways) right across the board.

O.
Title: Re: Feminism wrong about men?
Post by: Samuel on November 26, 2015, 03:33:46 PM
indeed
Title: Re: Feminism wrong about men?
Post by: Sassy on November 26, 2015, 10:43:34 PM
You have raised some interesting and relevant points Sassy  :) and given me something to think on.

Thanks

 :)
🌹

Hi Rose,

I think that is all we can do. Listen to each other and learn from each other. Sorry it appears so long winded when reading it back.. :)
Title: Re: Feminism wrong about men?
Post by: Sriram on November 28, 2015, 05:07:29 AM
And men were sent to learn trades, and the responsibility for elevating a family was down to the man, regardless of the talent or capacity of the women.

And, in a given family, if the woman is smarter or better equipped to earn, currently the systemic, cultural biases work against her achieving as a breadwinner what a similarly capable man would.

In families that choose not to have children, what's a woman supposed to be doing then?

It is for individual families to decide what is best for them, not for a social template to be forced upon them.

And yet the societies that are the most free and most equal are amongst the most stable, wealthiest and happiest. Where is the discord inherent in people choosing their own path?

O.

I am talking about common goals and common responsibilities. As I said, women working outside isn't as new or path breaking as is normally made out.  It has been a common feature of all societies from the dawn of society.  Family welfare has been the main objective for centuries and whatever needs to be done has been done.

Its only in certain communities who have been at the forefront of feudal warfare and troubled localities that women have been protected and restricted. The first target of wars and battles are women and children. Much like the way lions behave with rival prides. 

This is a very basic instinct necessary for specific gene propagation and protection. Why this instinct is giving way to a ultra liberal way of life in these times, is not clear. Maybe the genes are giving up!  ;)

So...what you see as a liberal attitude could also be seen as a breakdown of basic genetic programming....which could even be seen as ominous. 
Title: Re: Feminism wrong about men?
Post by: Udayana on November 28, 2015, 09:50:08 AM
I am talking about common goals and common responsibilities. As I said, women working outside isn't as new or path breaking as is normally made out.  It has been a common feature of all societies from the dawn of society.  Family welfare has been the main objective for centuries and whatever needs to be done has been done.

Its only in certain communities who have been at the forefront of feudal warfare and troubled localities that women have been protected and restricted. The first target of wars and battles are women and children. Much like the way lions behave with rival prides. 

This is a very basic instinct necessary for specific gene propagation and protection. Why this instinct is giving way to a ultra liberal way of life in these times, is not clear. Maybe the genes are giving up!  ;)

So...what you see as a liberal attitude could also be seen as a breakdown of basic genetic programming....which could even be seen as ominous.

There is a fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of instincts and genetics here. These are not "programming" and do not have a "purpose", even family welfare. They change according to the long term interaction of the population with the environment.

At some point in the future, it is possible that all humans could be found to be descendants of sperm donors* - it doesn't mean that sperm donation was necessary for the preservation of the species.

*based on the large disparity in number of children engendered using donor sperm to those from a typical male.