Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Leonard James on November 25, 2015, 02:59:36 PM
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For the first time in my life I had an out of body dream. I had never heard of such a thing before, but on googling it I found it is not uncommon.
I could see myself sitting in a chair with my head back, and Hugh was trying with a needle to get out a piece of grit which was embedded in the white of my eye.
The first view was from a few feet away, but then I moved in and got a close look, and could see his hand shaking (he suffers from essential tremor) as he did it. I could see the needle actually going into the white of my eye, but I felt nothing more than the irritation the grit was causing.
Very strange! It has never happened in real life, and I hope this isn't a warning! ;D
Has anybody else here had an experience of this kind?
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Sounds interesting! No, nothing of that kind has ever happened to me - I do have some incredibly vivid and occasionally lucid dreams, but nothing like that.
I have had a few mercifully rare instances of sleep paralysis, which is utterly horrendous :(
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Sounds interesting! No, nothing of that kind has ever happened to me - I do have some incredibly vivid and occasionally lucid dreams, but nothing like that.
I have had a few mercifully rare instances of sleep paralysis, which is utterly horrendous :(
I hadn't heard of that, Shakes, and it certainly sounds very unpleasant. It seems our brains have evolved with some very weird properties.
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LJ, poor you, how unpleasant. :( I haven't had the sort of experience you describe, but I have had some very vivid dreams in my life, which seemed very real at the time.
One of my daughters suffers from sleep paralysis.
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I've had both at various times.
What do you make of it? Why would it be a warning? If it is, of what?
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Sounds like you need Aunty Flo! :)
http://www.auntyflo.com/dream-dictionary/needle
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For the first time in my life I had an out of body dream. I had never heard of such a thing before, but on googling it I found it is not uncommon.
I could see myself sitting in a chair with my head back, and Hugh was trying with a needle to get out a piece of grit which was embedded in the white of my eye.
The first view was from a few feet away, but then I moved in and got a close look, and could see his hand shaking (he suffers from essential tremor) as he did it. I could see the needle actually going into the white of my eye, but I felt nothing more than the irritation the grit was causing.
Very strange! It has never happened in real life, and I hope this isn't a warning! ;D
Has anybody else here had an experience of this kind?
Can't remember who it was Len; I related a really daft and funny dream I had on the forum and some other poster was offering to read my dream, so if you hang on a bit they might get in touch with you.
Perhaps it's this god bloke trying to get a new members and using obscure means in an effort to blind side you and nab a convert.
If you need any more dream readings Len, well.
ippy
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For the first time in my life I had an out of body dream. I had never heard of such a thing before, but on googling it I found it is not uncommon.
I could see myself sitting in a chair with my head back, and Hugh was trying with a needle to get out a piece of grit which was embedded in the white of my eye.
The first view was from a few feet away, but then I moved in and got a close look, and could see his hand shaking (he suffers from essential tremor) as he did it. I could see the needle actually going into the white of my eye, but I felt nothing more than the irritation the grit was causing.
Very strange! It has never happened in real life, and I hope this isn't a warning! ;D
Has anybody else here had an experience of this kind?
It sounds like a warning not to allow your other half , to poke about with the white of your eye with a needle....... The whole idea makes me cringe ;D
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Sounds like you need Aunty Flo! :)
http://www.auntyflo.com/dream-dictionary/needle
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
That sounds like an uncommon load of old toffee to me!
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I've had both at various times.
What do you make of it? Why would it be a warning? If it is, of what?
Well, OOB experiences are similar to NDEs ... maybe Old Father Time is lurking near! :( :( :(
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Can't remember who it was Len; I related a really daft and funny dream I had on the forum and some other poster was offering to read my dream, so if you hang on a bit they might get in touch with you.
Perhaps it's this god bloke trying to get a new members and using obscure means in an effort to blind side you and nab a convert.
If you need any more dream readings Len, well.
ippy
Nah, Ippy, I don't swallow this dream reading stuff or the god stuff! I was thinking more like my answer to Udyana.
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It sounds like a warning not to allow your other half , to poke about with the white of your eye with a needle....... The whole idea makes me cringe ;D
Believe me, Rose, I wouldn't let him near me with a needle under any circumstances ... but dreams can relax all our inhibitions!
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Nah, Ippy, I don't swallow this dream reading stuff or the god stuff! I was thinking more like my answer to Udyana.
On reading the other posts, I think you're best off with Auntie Floo, but, of course.
ippy
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I'm not into reading dreams but I think they can be an indicator of something that is disturbing you in a subconcious sort of way.
In mine sometimes I dream my children are still small and are in danger in some way.
Once I dreamt one was crawling around the bed and was about to slip off the bottom.
I scared my husband half to death when I suddenly grabbed his feet in the middle of the night :-[
( trying to stop said dream baby falling off)
::)
I think mine sometimes reflects my concerns as a parent, and it comes out in various ways in dreams.
Sometimes I dream my children are small and I've lost them..........
I think it must have something to do with my mothering instinct all getting muddled up.
:o
Perhaps I'm an overprotective parent :o
In that sense, I think dreams can tell you something, sometimes.
Not really sure what Len's are telling him, it could be worries about health.
Mine usually tell me about my insecurities, because in a muddly way that's what they are sometimes about.
🌹
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I'm not into reading dreams but I think they can be an indicator of something that is disturbing you in a subconcious sort of way.
In mine sometimes I dream my children are still small and are in danger in some way.
Once I dreamt one was crawling around the bed and was about to slip off the bottom.
I scared my husband half to death when I suddenly grabbed his feet in the middle of the night :-[
( trying to stop said dream baby falling off)
::)
I think mine sometimes reflects my concerns as a parent, and it comes out in various ways in dreams.
Sometimes I dream my children are small and I've lost them..........
I think it must have something to do with my mothering instinct all getting muddled up.
:o
Perhaps I'm an overprotective parent :o
In that sense, I think dreams can tell you something, sometimes.
Not really sure what Len's are telling him, it could be worries about health.
Mine usually tell me about my insecurities, because in a muddly way that's what they are sometimes about.
🌹
The current thinking is that dreaming is the brain dumping the detritus it gathers during its wakeful hours.
Unless you have some need for a fortune teller, "cross my palm with silver" and all of that, I'd rather go with current theory from professionals.
ippy
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My nightly dreams, or at least the ones I remember, seem to have some connection with the things going on in my life.
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The current thinking is that dreaming is the brain dumping the detritus it gathers during its wakeful hours.
Unless you have some need for a fortune teller, "cross my palm with silver" and all of that, I'd rather go with current theory from professionals.
ippy
Which professionals - references? So "detritus" is floating around the planet and is somehow getting sucked into peoples brains? Or is it some kind of waste produced by the effort of thinking?
Actually, how is dreaming "dumping"? Where is it being dumped?
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Which professionals - references? So "detritus" is floating around the planet and is somehow getting sucked into peoples brains? Or is it some kind of waste produced by the effort of thinking?
Actually, how is dreaming "dumping"? Where is it being dumped?
I have some psychologists in my family and this is what I have been told, I have no reason to doubt what they say.
If you want a discussion about semantics, well thats OK with me, just don't include me in your discussion.
ippy
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I just don't see how dreaming can be explained by nonsense, unverifiable or un-falsifiable, magical concepts such as "dumping of detritus".
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Dear Leonard,
“What is common in all these dreams is obvious. They completely satisfy wishes excited during the day which remain unrealized. They are simply and undisguisedly realizations of wishes.”
Sigmund Freud.
You have some weird wishes old son :P :P
Gonnagle.
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I just don't see how dreaming can be explained by nonsense, unverifiable or un-falsifiable, magical concepts such as "dumping of detritus".
My niece is a Doctor of psychology and that's what she tells me, I'm a passer on of what she has told me, if you like, you wouldn't want me to make anything up, I haven't.
Why go into the inns and outs of a perfectly understandable description of filtering through daily rubbish that I referred to in that previous post, maybe not scientific terms, but easily understandable, why the semantic nonsense, I hope you're always word perfect to the very last detail every time you commit yourself, even then that's got nothing to do with the subject we're supposed to be discussing, dreams.
ippy
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But then, based on an vague argument from authority, there is no more reason to go with you than with Aunty Flo or any other soothsayer or shaman.
Dreams do affect how people feel, react and think so must be worth investigating further at least to the extent that we understand how they are generated and processed.
Why not just admit that we don't understand this, until we do?
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Interesting that the contributors to this thread are almost exclusively atheists! I think the've got OOB confused with OOH - out of head! ;D
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Interesting that the contributors to this thread are almost exclusively atheists! I think the've got OOB confused with OOH - out of head! ;D
You always look confused!
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But then, based on an vague argument from authority, there is no more reason to go with you than with Aunty Flo or any other soothsayer or shaman.
Dreams do affect how people feel, react and think so must be worth investigating further at least to the extent that we understand how they are generated and processed.
Why not just admit that we don't understand this, until we do?
Why would someone, a professional, tell me something that was, like anything else scientific always under scrutiny, not the current theory, why would my niece mislead me, why would my niece want to mislead me?
ippy
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Either because she doesn't know herself or, if she actually used the words "dumping detritus", she thought you would not understand her theory. Which school or field of psychology does she study/work in?
As far as I know there is no current theory of dreams worth the title.
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Ippy, You could show her this exchange and get more details maybe?
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Ippy, You could show her this exchange and get more details maybe?
And your expertise in this field is?
There seems to be quite a lot of research into dreaming!
http://psychology.about.com/od/statesofconsciousness/p/dream-theories.htm
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And your expertise in this field is?
There seems to be quite a lot of research into dreaming!
http://psychology.about.com/od/statesofconsciousness/p/dream-theories.htm
What is this obsession on the forum of late of people needing 'ologies'?
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Either because she doesn't know herself or, if she actually used the words "dumping detritus", she thought you would not understand her theory. Which school or field of psychology does she study/work in?
As far as I know there is no current theory of dreams worth the title.
I've found psychoanalytic and Jungian ideas about dreams interesting, but I think the big mistake which used to be made in psychotherapy was to prescribe an interpretation. This was too hierarchical - sit there, while I tell you what your dreams mean. This is too intrusive, I think, and the same with manuals of dream interpretation. However, people can use their own dreams in quite productive ways, as a set of symbols. But in that sense, they are no different from any symbols really.
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And your expertise in this field is?
There seems to be quite a lot of research into dreaming!
http://psychology.about.com/od/statesofconsciousness/p/dream-theories.htm
I'm not claiming any special expertise. There is a lot of interesting research into dreaming, including the activation-synthesis model you have linked to. But the video suggested it was "our most creative conscious state" - not "dumping detritus".
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I've found psychoanalytic and Jungian ideas about dreams interesting, but I think the big mistake which used to be made in psychotherapy was to prescribe an interpretation. This was too hierarchical - sit there, while I tell you what your dreams mean. This is too intrusive, I think, and the same with manuals of dream interpretation. However, people can use their own dreams in quite productive ways, as a set of symbols. But in that sense, they are no different from any symbols really.
Jung's cataloging of symbols and archetypes was useful, but psychoanalysis itself has no real scientific basis. The most useful idea I've picked up from it is that other people in your dreams just represent various aspects of yourself, ie. projected onto them, not anything directly to do with those persons. I think this definitely has helped me gain insight when thinking about my own dreams.
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Dear Udayana,
The most useful idea I've picked up from it is that other people in your dreams just represent various aspects of yourself, ie. projected onto them, not anything directly to do with those persons.
That was at the back of my mind ( a place that definitely needs a de-clutter :o ) was it Freud who said that we are all the people in our dreams, is that what you are saying?
Gonnagle.
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Essential yes, though did it originate with Freud? I came across it in Gestalt therapy.
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Dear Udayana,
Essential yes, though did it originate with Freud? I came across it in Gestalt therapy.
Not sure myself but if it is true, hell! I don't think I will ever sleep again :o :o
Gonnagle.
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;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
That sounds like an uncommon load of old toffee to me!
An unbeliever!, Persecute! Kill the heretic! :P
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Dear Udayana,
Not sure myself but if it is true, hell! I don't think I will ever sleep again :o :o
Gonnagle.
It's not something that is "true" or "not true" though. More like a different perspective from which to think about your dream - that may be helpful or maybe not.
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Jung's cataloging of symbols and archetypes was useful, but psychoanalysis itself has no real scientific basis. The most useful idea I've picked up from it is that other people in your dreams just represent various aspects of yourself, ie. projected onto them, not anything directly to do with those persons. I think this definitely has helped me gain insight when thinking about my own dreams.
Yes, I think the idea of projection is useful with some dreams, although not all. I think you have to have a kind of mixed approach to dreams, if you are working as a therapist. Psychoanalytic, Jungian, Gestalt, Kleinian, I used to take what's useful, although some people disagree. Scientific? That's another thread, really. I see therapy as an interpretive art.
Good point about 'truth' - yes, that's not the issue.
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Well, OOB experiences are similar to NDEs ... maybe Old Father Time is lurking near! :( :( :(
Perish the thought, Len! As you may remember, I related some of my own experiences of this sort of thing way back on the old BBC forum, and all these experiences occurred before I was thirty (except for a number of weird lucid dream experiences I had in my mid-thirties, which resulted from my taking extremely strong opiates over a long period for intense pain relief).
One OOB occurred when I was on a train (the only occasion when I appeared to 'see my body'). I was in the toilet when the train jolted into motion, and I appeared to see myself collapsing onto the wash-basin and then to the floor. I had a number of strange experiences during my teens when I found myself apparently floating out of the window of my childhood home, through a landscape akin to the actual one, but different in a number of aspects. I suspect these were self-induced.
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Ippy, You could show her this exchange and get more details maybe?
I could do this if I needed to, anyway since I was only passing on something that just happened to come up in a family type conversation and I thought at the time interesting.
Why do you seem to be making some kind of argument out of this I'm not, if it bothers you that much you could look it up and perhaps some new theories have come to light, I don't know, I only know the info I've heard, I'm not an expert, and I haven't even implied as much.
ippy
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You always look confused!
;D ;D So witty!
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The current thinking is that dreaming is the brain dumping the detritus it gathers during its wakeful hours.
Unless you have some need for a fortune teller, "cross my palm with silver" and all of that, I'd rather go with current theory from professionals.
ippy
It was just my opinions and observations.
Sometimes I do disagree with current theory from professionals, because it seems to me professionals don't know everything.
I don't always go with the current thinking from professionals because sometimes, just occasionally I think they are wrong.
Not on dreams specifically, but on advice given by professionals that varies from year to year. ( example midwives on the best way to put a baby in a cot)
Just because someone has an ' ology' doesn't mean they know it all.
Posters on here have related instances when they have thought an " expert" or doctor was wrong.
I see nothing wrong with ordinary people challenging other people with an "ology"
Having an " ology" doesn't mean that person thinks for themselves.
It just means, they have read a lot of books.
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I could do this if I needed to, anyway since I was only passing on something that just happened to come up in a family type conversation and I thought at the time interesting.
Why do you seem to be making some kind of argument out of this I'm not, if it bothers you that much you could look it up and perhaps some new theories have come to light, I don't know, I only know the info I've heard, I'm not an expert, and I haven't even implied as much.
ippy
Sorry, I don't mean to make an argument of it. I don't mind nonsense, but I do have an allergic reaction to nonsense being presented as logical or scientific to try and oppose something that clearly has no pretensions to be either.
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Dear Leonard,
Sigmund Freud.
You have some weird wishes old son :P :P
Gonnagle.
Believe that and you'll believe anything, Gonners! :)
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Sorry, I don't mean to make an argument of it. I don't mind nonsense, but I do have an allergic reaction to nonsense being presented as logical or scientific to try and oppose something that clearly has no pretensions to be either.
It's not clear what nonsense you're referring to Please enlighten me?
ippy
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It was just my opinions and observations.
Sometimes I do disagree with current theory from professionals, because it seems to me professionals don't know everything.
I don't always go with the current thinking from professionals because sometimes, just occasionally I think they are wrong.
Not on dreams specifically, but on advice given by professionals that varies from year to year. ( example midwives on the best way to put a baby in a cot)
Just because someone has an ' ology' doesn't mean they know it all.
Posters on here have related instances when they have thought an " expert" or doctor was wrong.
I see nothing wrong with ordinary people challenging other people with an "ology"
Having an " ology" doesn't mean that person thinks for themselves.
It just means, they have read a lot of books.
I don't have any problems going with whatever the current theory happens to be, I always, without fail back off of mumbo jumbo, then again if the current theory changes, it can be really interesting to know why.
ippy
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Perish the thought, Len! As you may remember, I related some of my own experiences of this sort of thing way back on the old BBC forum, and all these experiences occurred before I was thirty (except for a number of weird lucid dream experiences I had in my mid-thirties, which resulted from my taking extremely strong opiates over a long period for intense pain relief).
One OOB occurred when I was on a train (the only occasion when I appeared to 'see my body'). I was in the toilet when the train jolted into motion, and I appeared to see myself collapsing onto the wash-basin and then to the floor. I had a number of strange experiences during my teens when I found myself apparently floating out of the window of my childhood home, through a landscape akin to the actual one, but different in a number of aspects. I suspect these were self-induced.
To be honest, Dicky, I don't believe that dreams "mean" anything. They are just the brain free-wheeling when our normal senses are switched off, as in sleep or unconsciousness.
We humans seem to want to find "meanings/causes" for everything, and often resort to fantasy to satisfy that need.
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It's not clear what nonsense you're referring to Please enlighten me?
ippy
"The current thinking is that dreaming is the brain dumping the detritus it gathers during its wakeful hours."
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"The current thinking is that dreaming is the brain dumping the detritus it gathers during its wakeful hours."
It could well be, I don't know, all I do know it was the thinking, so I was told, at that time by someone that is well qualified, and well qualified in that area, it's up to you, please yourself.
ippy
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"The current thinking is that dreaming is the brain dumping the detritus it gathers during its wakeful hours."
Indeed, and that's why so many atheists are so busy dreaming: lots of detritus to shed! :)
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Indeed, and
I have to agree that when you present my words without the rest of the post that included, the words of mine you've presented here, you, I'm sure unintentionally, have made it look as though I have made an assertion.
Just out of interest B A are you in some way, or another, connected with Hope? only the above is more his style than yours.
ippy
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Just out of interest B A are you in some way, or another, connected with Hope? only the above is more his style than yours.
ippy
I hope not. See what I did there? :)
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To be honest, Dicky, I don't believe that dreams "mean" anything. They are just the brain free-wheeling when our normal senses are switched off, as in sleep or unconsciousness.
We humans seem to want to find "meanings/causes" for everything, and often resort to fantasy to satisfy that need.
That of course is what I believe now, Len. But I didn't believe it at the time - I certainly believed that reality had a 'spiritual' dimension to it. I certainly seemed to 'dream' a lot more when I had such beliefs than I do now that I've lost them. Somewhat the reverse of what our favourite atheist-basher would like to believe :)
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I hadn't heard of that, Shakes, and it certainly sounds very unpleasant. It seems our brains have evolved with some very weird properties.
Your brain, Leonard? How can your brain view things from an external point of view? I assume you had verified what was going on to you physically, in detail, so as to confirm it wasn't a dream?
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Believe me, Rose, I wouldn't let him near me with a needle under any circumstances ... but dreams can relax all our inhibitions!
If it was a dream then it wasn't a OOB!!!!
Jesus, Leonard, get your fact rights!!!
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Your brain, Leonard? How can your brain view things from an external point of view? I assume you had verified what was going on to you physically, in detail, so as to confirm it wasn't a dream?
????????
Read my opening post.
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If it was a dream then it wasn't a OOB!!!!
Jesus, Leonard, get your fact rights!!!
?????
Read my opening post!
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?????
I think you'll have to excuse Lenny: he must have been kissed on the head by the Pope. ;)
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For those with a weak ability to comprehend, here is the first line of my opening post.
For the first time in my life I had an out of body dream.
In other words I dreamt I had an out of body experience. Is that clear now?
I learnt that the brain can produce out of body experiences whether it is near death or not, confirming my belief that such experiences are nothing more than illusions.
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For those with a weak ability to comprehend, here is the first line of my opening post.
In other words I dreamt I had an out of body experience. Is that clear now?
I learnt that the brain can produce out of body experiences whether it is near death or not, confirming my belief that such experiences are nothing more than illusions.
It is not a question of people being unable to comprehend: it is a matter of you being unable to make a point clearly.
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For those with a weak ability to comprehend, here is the first line of my opening post.
In other words I dreamt I had an out of body experience. Is that clear now?
I learnt that the brain can produce out of body experiences whether it is near death or not, confirming my belief that such experiences are nothing more than illusions.
LJ if some of us younger people had the intellect you display at your great age we would be very grateful indeed. :) Take no notice of your detractors they are just jealous they are lacking in that department! ;D
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The trouble is mental phenomena are less easily connected to actual physical sites much to the chagrin of reductionists.
I am happy that these are emergent properties. Dreams of course are remembered only if the conscious waked mind catches the subconscious doing what it does.
It would seem that Len mulls over such things in his subconscious mind. He could for instance rather have had a more trivial dream.
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LJ if some of us younger people had the intellect you display at your great age we would be very grateful indeed. :) Take no notice of your detractors they are just jealous they are lacking in that department! ;D
Thank you, Roses!
I am well aware of the limitations of the droll, troll-queens, and normally just ignore them.
But sometimes I feel they need to be reminded that their put-down posts are just examples of their inferiority complex surfacing. :)
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LJ if some of us younger people had the intellect you display at your great age we would be very grateful indeed. :) Take no notice of your detractors they are just jealous they are lacking in that department! ;D
We know nothing of the intellectual capability of people who just assert stuff.
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It would seem that Len mulls over such things in his subconscious mind.
As does everybody ... we are just not aware of doing so. That's why it's called the subconscious.
He could for instance rather have had a more trivial dream.
Once again ... so could everybody!
I attach no more importance to them than any other dreams. As I have already said, they are just the brain passing the time ... rather like chewing on a piece of grass while thinking.
Many people have seized on the phenomenon to make money out of the credulous.
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We know nothing of the intellectual capability of people who just assert stuff.
He asserted! :)
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As does everybody ... we are just not aware of doing so. That's why it's called the subconscious.
No occasionally we do as when we pass from a sleep state to a wakeful state or visa versa.
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He asserted! :)
Let me explain. If you assert stuff we cannot see your ''working out or working through'' of what you assert. We don't know whether you are, say, merely parroting an antitheist site, vis anything about not having to know anything about leprechauns or fairies and the bottoms of gardens.
If the cap fits.
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Let me explain. If you assert stuff we cannot see your ''working out or working through'' of what you assert. We don't know whether you are, say, merely parroting an antitheist site, vis anything about not having to know anything about leprechauns or fairies and the bottoms of gardens.
If the cap fits.
Just to put you right ... I don't parrot anything, I post my own conclusions ... but fully realise they are based on my life experiences.
Like everybody else here.
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As does everybody ... we are just not aware of doing so. That's why it's called the subconscious.
Once again ... so could everybody!
I attach no more importance to them than any other dreams. As I have already said, they are just the brain passing the time ... rather like chewing on a piece of grass while thinking.
Many people have seized on the phenomenon to make money out of the credulous.
hmmm ... it obviously disturbed you enough for you to post it here.
Anyway, there's your problem - grass fine, but thinking can have all sorts of upsetting side effects!
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Just to put you right ... I don't parrot anything, I post my own conclusions ... but fully realise they are based on my life experiences.
Like everybody else here.
Nope......... the leprechaun and enjoying the garden without the fairies schtick crops up quite frequently.
You did accuse me of mere assertion and IMHO haven't enjoyed the implications of the ''working through''.
If what you are saying is ''I do not parrot......all my mere assertions are my own effort'' I am perfectly happy to accept that Leonard.
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hmmm ... it obviously disturbed you enough for you to post it here.
It confirmed something I have long believed. Hardly disturbing! :)
Anyway, there's your problem - grass fine, but thinking can have all sorts of upsetting side effects!
Upsetting? You do use words in the most mistaken manner.
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Nope......... the leprechaun and enjoying the garden without the fairies schtick crops up quite frequently.
You did accuse me of mere assertion and IMHO haven't enjoyed the implications of the ''working through''.
If what you are saying is ''I do not parrot......all my mere assertions are my own effort'' I am perfectly happy to accept that Leonard.
Accept whatever you want ... it's all one as far as I am concerned. :)
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It confirmed something I have long believed. Hardly disturbing! :)
Upsetting? You do use words in the most mistaken manner.
OK, no problem then :)
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OK, no problem then :)
Apart from the ones that beset us on every step of our way through life! :)
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Thank you, Roses!
I am well aware of the limitations of the droll, troll-queens, and normally just ignore them.
But sometimes I feel they need to be reminded that their put-down posts are just examples of their inferiority complex surfacing. :)
It must be very sad to have an inferiority complex, so I suppose we have to pity them however irritating they can be!