Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Hope on November 26, 2015, 09:04:41 AM
-
Is this an indicator of a civilised society?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-34861602
We already have legislation banning the use of lead shot in areas of wildlife sensitivity - why can't the use of steel and other non-toxic shot that is required in such places be extended nationally?
-
To take the devil's advocate position for the moment, I imagine that, due to its density, lead is more effective over longer distances.
Shaker would no doubt argue that it is unnecessary to shoot wild birds at all. I find that difficult to argue against.
-
Is this an indicator of a civilised society?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-34861602
We already have legislation banning the use of lead shot in areas of wildlife sensitivity - why can't the use of steel and other non-toxic shot that is required in such places be extended nationally?
I heard that on the news, and agree that lead should be withdrawn!
-
Shaker would no doubt argue that it is unnecessary to shoot wild birds at all. I find that difficult to argue against.
I think there is a considerable element of truth here, though there are also perfectly legit. reasons for killing wildlife of all forms.
-
I think there is a considerable element of truth here, though there are also perfectly legit. reasons for killing wildlife of all forms.
Which are?
-
I think there is a considerable element of truth here, though there are also perfectly legit. reasons for killing wildlife of all forms.
"Legitimate reasons for killing"? What sort of attitude is that? Nasty!
-
"Legitimate reasons for killing"? What sort of attitude is that? Nasty!
Well let's see if we get an answer to the question first - highly unlikely on past showing but hey.
The most common reason usually advanced for culling some wild species is that they have few or no natural predators and thus would breed more or less unchecked, large numbers causing damage to flora and fauna.
-
Which are?
I can think of a group of swans that had clearly been poisoned by something, in North Wales - iirc, who were deemed to be too dangerous to approach. They were shot from a distance. I can think of other wildlife that have been put down for other reasons - such as being culled as a result of over-population which threatened their very existence. Then, of course, it happens with vermin on a daily basis, otherwise places would be overrun by rats, feral cats and dogs, etc.
-
The almost cpmplete extirmination of the ruddy duck,(originally an introduced species) from the UK has been extremely contoversial. The reason for this cull was its propensity to breed with the white headed duck(an endangered species of the same genus) and its migratory behaviour, especially as regards Spain, where most of the European population of white headed ducks remain. This culling was initiated by DEFRA, at the taxpayers' expense, supported by the RSPB(amongst others), and was so successful that to date the number has been reduced from 6500 to less than 10. My own position is that the cull was particularly pointless and expensive, especially as ruddy ducks have spread to other European countries(especially France) which, afik, have no such culls in mind.
As regards the OP, I certainly favour the phasing out of lead shot. Alternatives, I'm sure, can be found, as was the use of lead shot by fisherman.
However I can see that there are compelling arguments for the culling of certain species in certain environments.
-
Which are?
Disease and overpopulation
-
I can think of a group of swans that had clearly been poisoned by something, in North Wales - iirc, who were deemed to be too dangerous to approach. They were shot from a distance. I can think of other wildlife that have been put down for other reasons - such as being culled as a result of over-population which threatened their very existence. Then, of course, it happens with vermin on a daily basis, otherwise places would be overrun by rats, feral cats and dogs, etc.
Yes, kill them all: in fact anything that is dangerous: tigers, sharks, alligators, ducks, rabbits, pigeons, or any other thing that moves! Wait a minute, your kind already do! It's little short of evil!
-
Yes, kill them all: in fact anything that is dangerous: tigers, sharks, alligators, ducks, rabbits, pigeons, or any other thing that moves! Wait a minute, your kind already do! It's little short of evil!
And what relevance does this rant have to the post you quoted, BA? The swans I referred to were already dying - I assume you and Shaker would have left them to die slowly and painfully?
The species I referred to that were culled were culled expressly to save their species from a slow lingering death over a number of years.
The reference to rats/feral cats and dogs, etc was, of course, to do with protecting both humans and animals from potentially diseased and uncontrollable creatures.
-
And what relevance does this rant have to the post you quoted, BA? The swans I referred to were already dying - I assume you and Shaker would have left them to die slowly and painfully?
The species I referred to that were culled were culled expressly to save their species from a slow lingering death over a number of years.
The reference to rats/feral cats and dogs, etc was, of course, to do with protecting both humans and animals from potentially diseased and uncontrollable creatures.
What disease? Name some examples of this dreadful danger, and its effects on people here.
-
What disease? Name some examples of this dreadful danger, and its effects on people here.
Historically, the Black Death (aka bubonic plague). Globally, there were about 750 cases of bubonic plague during 2013, of which about 125 proved to be fatal. As I understand it, it is treated with antibiotics. As diseases become more and more resistant to antibiotics, so we could see a greater number of cases over coming years.
Rats carry rabies as can dogs (feral or not). Non-feral dogs can be observed and monitored for that horrendous disease; feral ones can't.
-
Historically, the Black Death (aka bubonic plague). Globally, there were about 750 cases of bubonic plague during 2013, of which about 125 proved to be fatal. As I understand it, it is treated with antibiotics. As diseases become more and more resistant to antibiotics, so we could see a greater number of cases over coming years.
Rats carry rabies as do dogs (feral or not). Non-feral dogs can be observed and monitored for that horrendous disease; feral ones can't.
How many examples of the plague, or rabies, here, recently?
-
How many examples of the plague, or rabies, here, recently?
Thankfully, of the 26 deaths in the UK since 1902, only one appears to have been contracted within the UK. That doesn't mean that it couldn't be contracted here. Not sure about the plague - there have been a number of outbreaks globally over the last few decades, but I've been unable to find any recent UK figures - but again that doesn't mean that it couldn't break out afresh here any time.
Another disease worth bearing in mind is malaria. Whilst the majority of cases in the UK have been contracted whilst abroad, not all have.
Then, there is TB - the reason why badgers are bring culled is because science suggested that they are carrying it and infecting cattle. Not quite sure of the veracity of the science - the jury still seems divided.
-
Thankfully, of the 26 deaths in the UK since 1902, only one appears to have been contracted within the UK. That doesn't mean that it couldn't be contracted here. Not sure about the plague - there have been a number of outbreaks globally over the last few decades, but I've been unable to find any recent UK figures - but again that doesn't mean that it couldn't break out afresh here any time.
Another disease worth bearing in mind is malaria. Whilst the majority of cases in the UK have been contracted whilst abroad, not all have.
Then, there is TB - the reason why badgers are bring culled is because science suggested that they are carrying it and infecting cattle. Not quite sure of the veracity of the science - the jury still seems divided.
So rabies and malaria are not a plausible reason for mass killing here; and for that matter, neither is badger-culling. I think you ought to look at the debate on that one. Not forgetting how ten million healthy livestock were slaughtered during the foot-and-mouth epidemic of 2001; and for no justifiable reason. All down to the same "kill it, whatever," mind-set.
-
...
Then, there is TB - the reason why badgers are bring culled is because science suggested that they are carrying it and infecting cattle. Not quite sure of the veracity of the science - the jury still seems divided.
...
"Science suggested ... "? Farmers not science, I think. Even though science shows that it is carried by badgers it doesn't mean that culling is the most effective response given the size of the badger population.
-
Food!
Nothing compelling about that - I've managed exceptionally well without eating animals for twenty-two years and counting.
-
And that was managed well enough before we had shotguns.
-
Not everyone wants to be a vegetarian.
No doubt; but that animal flesh is superfluous, and eaten to gratify whim rather than out of necessity for health, strength and well-being, is unarguable.
Plus you still have to protect your crops, even if you are a vegetarian.
Assuming you're an ethical vegetarian, killing to avoid complicity with killing doesn't really stack up, does it?
-
Not everyone wants to be a vegetarian.
Plus you still have to protect your crops, even if you are a vegetarian.
Not everyone wants to be not a cannibal. So your post implies you support cannibals.
-
And that was managed well enough before we had shotguns.
only by nuclear scarecrows
-
The farmer here uses gas canister birds scarers that go off periodically through the day. I'm on the fields a couple of times a day and I've never seen anyone with a gun there in seventeen years. The rabbits are reduced in number by the foxes - local farmers encourage them here because they don't have livestock to protect. Nature finds a balance.
-
Yes they used snares and traps.
Would you prefer they went back to those?
The old gin trap
http://birdersagainst.org/pole-traps/
The shotgun is relatively more humane than a gin trap.
Then in that case we should be grateful that the technology exists to render both superfluous.
-
Wire mesh fencing, mesh cages, electric fencing (good for deer). Encourage foxes and other natural predators and the balance will be found. Because the completely unsentimental, un-fluffy-bunny farmer here doesn't shoot rabbits, yet his crops are fine.
-
Well years ago, the balance was maintained by the game keepers.
They used snares and gin traps.
If you have livestock foxes are an issue.
Natures balance for the wildlife is cruel and seems to work by being fruitful one year lots of young, and then culling them by starvation when the going isn't good.
Natures balance is basically cruel, a slow death when food is short.
Before they had shotguns people were more likely to have starved along with the wildlife in a bad winter.
Although modern life protects us from the reality of the harshness of nature, we can't afford to allow wildlife to reach unsupportable numbers.
Deer for example are becoming a problem in some places, when there are too many, they all suffer.
Most of our wild places are not really wild places, because they have been managed by landowners who have maintained a balance of sorts.
I don't think there are any places in the UK that are natural, where nature is left to find a balance.
The. balance has changed because we have changed the rules and some of our wildlife has suffered as a result.
Look at all the species of birds that are becoming rare and have been in decline since other species are no longer kept down by man.
:(
The balance was maintained by people, now this has changed and is considered politically incorrect, many of our most loved species are in decline.
You can't chang...
Just one point, as I have personal experience: I kept ducks for many years, and foxes were a constant danger, at night anyway. So I kept them in a concrete enclosure, and they were safe. It shouldn't be beyond the wit of anyone to keep their animals safe: as long as they care enough.