Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => Politics & Current Affairs => Topic started by: Hope on December 15, 2015, 01:07:29 PM
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I should state that I wasn't in the UK at th time of the Battle of Orgreave - or the bulk of the Miners' Strike - but heard a lot about the whole situation from the BBC and from friends at the time.
This year -the 30th Anniversary - has seen a couple of calls for a fully independent inquiry into what happened. What do folk here think about such a call? I think that I would like to see one, especially having spoken to a number of ex-miners who are colleagues at the heritage railway I work at near Bridgend and their stories about not only police brutality but also miners' deliberate goading of the police - suggesting that an inquiry might bring some interesting facts about the spinning and reporting of events that will be 'detrimental' to both sides of the debate.
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I should state that I wasn't in the UK at th time of the Battle of Orgreave - or the bulk of the Miners' Strike - but heard a lot about the whole situation from the BBC and from friends at the time.
This year -the 30th Anniversary - has seen a couple of calls for a fully independent inquiry into what happened. What do folk here think about such a call? I think that I would like to see one, especially having spoken to a number of ex-miners who are colleagues at the heritage railway I work at near Bridgend and their stories about not only police brutality but also miners' deliberate goading of the police - suggesting that an inquiry might bring some interesting facts about the spinning and reporting of events that will be 'detrimental' to both sides of the debate.
It is more than likely there were faults on both sides.
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It is more than likely there were faults on both sides.
Is it?
What are your reasons for stating this?
Are they based on any evidence?
On my brief brush with this issue when I was living in Nottingham in the 80's the police were very heavy handed even with those of us not directly linked to the strike.
When travelling to see my Mum who lived in Mansfield 15 miles from Nottingham we were subjected to road blocks, questioning of where we were going, and your reasons for going there; these were not imo the hallmarks of a free democracy. It did feel rather as if one had wandered into Eastern Europe.
The police over-used their powers whatever the supposed provocation was.
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Is it?
What are your reasons for stating this?
Are they based on any evidence?
On my brief brush with this issue when I was living in Nottingham in the 80's the police were very heavy handed even with those of us not directly linked to the strike.
When travelling to see my Mum who lived in Mansfield 15 miles from Nottingham we were subjected to road blocks, questioning of where we were going, and your reasons for going there; these were not imo the hallmarks of a free democracy. It did feel rather as if one had wandered into Eastern Europe.
The police over-used their powers whatever the supposed provocation was.
From my recollection of the events all those years ago the miners didn't exactly behave very well either!
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Is it?
What are your reasons for stating this?
Are they based on any evidence?
Trent, one the ex-miners at the railway I'm involved with has stated to me that he and few other folk from the Bridgend area travelled up to Orgreave for the picket and explained how the pickets were encouraged to goad the authorioties in any way that they could. I see no reason to disbelieve him, especially as he was arrested at a later stage in the strike here in South Wales.
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From my recollection of the events all those years ago the miners didn't exactly behave very well either!
I'm sure - but it was only their livelihoods at risk after all Floo. Nothing for you to worry your pretty little head about.
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Some miners may not have behaved very well but surely the Police should have certain standards they have to uphold. My recollection is that at times they seemed to be taking sides and taking the battle to the miners rather than trying to keep the peace and uphold the law.
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Some miners may not have behaved very well but surely the Police should have certain standards they have to uphold. My recollection is that at times they seemed to be taking sides and taking the battle to the miners rather than trying to keep the peace and uphold the law.
Some of those miners were rioting if I remember correctly so I have no sympathy for those scum! If peaceful protesters were hurt that is a different matter.
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I'm sure - but it was only their livelihoods at risk after all Floo. Nothing for you to worry your pretty little head about.
And often the picketing miners, etc. were putting other workers' livelihoods at risk, Trent.
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Some of those miners were rioting if I remember correctly so I have no sympathy for those scum! If peaceful protesters were hurt that is a different matter.
Oh I see that knee jerk is still working.
Never mind eh Floo - I expect you will never have to worry about losing your livelihood.
At what point would you consider rioters not to be scum - when they have no food, heat, shelter? - just when do they cross over from being scum to being desperate human beings Floo?
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And often the picketing miners, etc. were putting other workers' livelihoods at risk, Trent.
If you have no other tools at your disposal what would you do?
Not nearly as many jobs that were lost in this area that were dependant on coal mining and were lost because of government policy - and Notts got off relatively lightly.
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Oh I see that knee jerk is still working.
Never mind eh Floo - I expect you will never have to worry about losing your livelihood.
At what point would you consider rioters not to be scum - when they have no food, heat, shelter? - just when do they cross over from being scum to being desperate human beings Floo?
Rioting is EVIL and is not the way to make a point!
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Some of those miners were rioting if I remember correctly so I have no sympathy for those scum! If peaceful protesters were hurt that is a different matter.
Its easy to throw words like scum around Floo but you have to take into consideration the big picture and the actions and attitudes of the Police as well. I'm quite sure there were agitators and trouble makers within the miners - but equally sure, from what I saw, that the Police were up for a fight and went beyond what would normally be expected of the Police Force. They were difficult times but my recollection is thinking that the Police were being used in a way which they shouldn't have been to take the fight to the miners.
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This thread reminds me of the Battle of the Beanfield - another time that the rozzers were turned out en masse as agents of the regime of the day - hired muscle for Thatcher.
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Rioting is EVIL and is not the way to make a point!
That is easy to say from a comfortable armchair. Other people in other parts of this country and the world do not have that comfort.
That is not to say that some rioting isn't unecessary - it's just that I do not think that a blanket judgement on such issues helps anyone.
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That is easy to say from a comfortable armchair. Other people in other parts of this country and the world do not have that comfort.
That is not to say that some rioting isn't unecessary - it's just that I do not think that a blanket judgement on such issues helps anyone.
We will have to agree to differ on this topic.
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https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/hidden-motives/201108/understanding-why-people-riot
You could give this a read if you want to see where I am coming from on this. On the other hand you could ignore it.
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Is it?
When travelling to see my Mum who lived in Mansfield 15 miles from Nottingham we were subjected to road blocks, questioning of where we were going, and your reasons for going there; these were not imo the hallmarks of a free democracy. It did feel rather as if one had wandered into Eastern Europe.
The police over-used their powers whatever the supposed provocation was.
FTR I was told exactly the same thing by a striking miner who lived in Betteshanger, one of the Kent mining villages.
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It wasn't just livelihoods that went, was it? It was a way of life.
Desperate people do desperate things.
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At what point would you consider rioters not to be scum - when they have no food, heat, shelter? - just when do they cross over from being scum to being desperate human beings Floo?
Incidentally, Trent, in mid 1984 (sept, iirc) I went up one of the mining valleys in S.Wales with some friends to help collect some furniture that was being distributed amongst the (adult) children of a family whose grandfather had died a couple of months earlier. I was surprised to see a central heating boiler outsiude practically every 4th house as we went through the villages. They all looked pretty new, and was later told that none were more than 5 years old. Apparently, for the past few years, every mining family had done this kind of replacement as a result of the HP arrangement that the mining unions had done with - I assume - British Gas. Each replacement involved a slightly higher monthly repayment but the miners clearly felt that they had the money available to continue with the process.
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Waste of money. Until there are laws to bring any wrong doings in such matters what will be gained? Our politicians know that they can act with near impunity.
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Waste of money. Until there are laws to bring any wrong doings in such matters what will be gained? Our politicians know that they can act with near impunity.
I assume you mean all those involved in politics - which technically means you and I, JK.
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/may/16/newsid_2512000/2512469.stm
Miners jailed for murder
Just for balance sake. I make no judgment personally but think it is time to let the whole thing go.
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/may/16/newsid_2512000/2512469.stm
Miners jailed for murder
Just for balance sake. I make no judgment personally but think it is time to let the whole thing go.
I remember the conference of the former CPSA that year, one delegate held up a placard with the wording "Two Miners Jailed for Murder" during a debate which was intended to be a display of solidarity with the NUM. The strike was contentious within the trade union movement since there was unease that the NUM had not called a national ballot.
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I assume you mean all those involved in politics - which technically means you and I, JK.
I assume you know what the technical and professional meaning of the word politician is, Hope?
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/may/16/newsid_2512000/2512469.stm
Miners jailed for murder
Just for balance sake. I make no judgment personally but think it is time to let the whole thing go.
Worth pointing out of course, but the actions of surely there is a difference between how the Police as supposed to act and how certain individuals act. The point is about how the Police Force were used - appearing to be,as was said, agents of the government of the time rather than independant upholders of the law.
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Maeght
Try thinking laterally here.
The police are the accountable agents of the state, which directs finances and controls them, whether you like it or not.
In any case of enforcement there are winners and losers. Simplistically, the state takes away a drink drivers licence and society is pleased about that, the driver himself, his family, friends and even his employers may not be. It inconveniences them and maybe impacts harshly on them in financial terms too.
The striking miners were acting unofficially, there was never a ballot, and by no means all miners wanted to strike. Those that didn't were subjected to threats, intimidation, etc. See my earlier example of the murder for just one example, a quick search on the interweb thingy will find examples of working miners homes being damaged their families being threatened etc.
And who directed, financed and controlled the striking miners? No the state or society for sure. Pickets too (like the police) were bussed about and organised in the course of the dispute. There were rumours in abundance at the time that money was coming from places like Lybia and the Soviet Union. etc. who of course had no interest in looking after the best interests of British society, their reasons were in fact the opposite.
To who were the striking miners accountable, apart from themselves. Whose interests were they looking after apart from their own!
And of course given what we now know about pollution and global warming, would we now want to support the burning of coal?
Those around at the time might remember that when police tried to get hold of the minutes of meetings, details of accounts, etc. from the miners union they could not do so, which is why the rumours about financing etc. persist. Again look it up on the interweb thingy.
Policing costs, names of officers deployed, etc is still on record though.
An enquiry now might throw up some very interesting stuff which would worry the left wing at least as much as the police. Which is why I think it would be best to let it lie.
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That is easy to say from a comfortable armchair. Other people in other parts of this country and the world do not have that comfort.
And, of course, the strike by miners also adversely affected other people who were trying to earn much needed income.
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An enquiry now might throw up some very interesting stuff which would worry the left wing at least as much as the police. Which is why I think it would be best to let it lie.
Its exactly because it might throw up some interesting things about the left wing, especially when it is that very left-wing who are calling for the inquiry, that I think such an inquiry ought to go ahead.
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Maeght
Try thinking laterally here.
Thank you for your helpful advice :) Your post isn't lateral thinking though really - just an alternative view.
The police are the accountable agents of the state, which directs finances and controls them, whether you like it or not.
They should not be agents of the Government of the day to enforce thier political ideals - they are there to uphold the law of the land.
In any case of enforcement there are winners and losers. Simplistically, the state takes away a drink drivers licence and society is pleased about that, the driver himself, his family, friends and even his employers may not be. It inconveniences them and maybe impacts harshly on them in financial terms too.
Not the same thing. You seem to be referring to the decision to close the mines. That is not what I am referring to but rather the responses and actions taken by police regarding striking miners and pickets. A different thing.
[quote}The striking miners were acting unofficially, there was never a ballot, and by no means all miners wanted to strike.[/quote]
It was official in that it was called for by the NUM. There wasn't a National ballot but there wasn't a requirement for one I believe. I agree that not all miners wanted to strike though and in some areas voted locally not to.
Those that didn't were subjected to threats, intimidation, etc. See my earlier example of the murder for just one example, a quick search on the interweb thingy will find examples of working miners homes being damaged their families being threatened etc.
Agreed.
And who directed, financed and controlled the striking miners? No the state or society for sure. Pickets too (like the police) were bussed about and organised in the course of the dispute. There were rumours in abundance at the time that money was coming from places like Lybia and the Soviet Union. etc. who of course had no interest in looking after the best interests of British society, their reasons were in fact the opposite.
Lots of rumours of course and some may be true. So this ascpect should have been addressed rather than the Police being used to take the 'battle' to the miners.
To who were the striking miners accountable, apart from themselves. Whose interests were they looking after apart from their own!
Many saw that they were fighting for the future of their communities and there children.
And of course given what we now know about pollution and global warming, would we now want to support the burning of coal?
That wasn't an issue then and not really relevant to the Police action.
Those around at the time might remember that when police tried to get hold of the minutes of meetings, details of accounts, etc. from the miners union they could not do so, which is why the rumours about financing etc. persist. Again look it up on the interweb thingy.
Did they take this to court? How did they try to get hold of them?
Policing costs, names of officers deployed, etc is still on record though.
As they should be.
An enquiry now might throw up some very interesting stuff which would worry the left wing at least as much as the police. Which is why I think it would be best to let it lie.
It might also throw up some interesting stuff about MI5 infiltration and efforts on the right wing to push for trouble to discredit the unions.
The whole situation around the Miners strike is complex and in no way am I or have I attempted to present the Miners as being whiter than white and the Police to be the baddies. The point throughout this is as to whether the actions of the Police crossed the line and that they became an agent of the government to take the battle to the Miners on their behalf rather than concentrating on upholding the law. Much of your post doesn't really adress that in my view.
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Is it?
What are your reasons for stating this?
Are they based on any evidence?
On my brief brush with this issue when I was living in Nottingham in the 80's the police were very heavy handed even with those of us not directly linked to the strike.
When travelling to see my Mum who lived in Mansfield 15 miles from Nottingham we were subjected to road blocks, questioning of where we were going, and your reasons for going there; these were not imo the hallmarks of a free democracy. It did feel rather as if one had wandered into Eastern Europe.
The police over-used their powers whatever the supposed provocation was.
Yes I remember that too.
The police stopping people going about their law abiding business.
I think it was actually illegal for them to do that, but they did it anyway.
It might be good to pursue just to highlight that one issue.
In case it were to happen again, and I thought it was an abuse of power by the police.
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They should not be agents of the Government of the day to enforce thier political ideals - they are there to uphold the law of the land.
Often, the former and the latter coincide, Maeght.
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Often, the former and the latter coincide, Maeght.
If they do then fine, if they don't then they should stick to upholding the law.
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If they do then fine, if they don't then they should stick to upholding the law.
Can you give me any examples of when they didn't coincide from, say, the last 30 years?
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Can you give me any examples of when they didn't coincide from, say, the last 30 years?
I can give you two. The miners' strike currently under discussion, and the Battle of the Beanfield a little later.
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I can give you two. The miners' strike currently under discussion, and the Battle of the Beanfield a little later.
If I remember correctly, the police were enforcing a High Court injunction in the latter - suggesting that the police action coincided with their role as upholders of the law of the land. As for the events during the miners' strike a number of people I know, who played prominent parts in ther strike to the extent that thyey were arrested and found guilty of affray and various other things have told me that the police, though heavy handed very often, were more often than not fulfilling their role of upholding the law - as far as enabling workers who weren't striking, to go to work. Not something that the strikers were too keen on, but perfectly legal.
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Which is all very nice and anecdotal, but not a rebuttal much less a refutation of Maeght's point that the police: "... should not be agents of the Government of the day to enforce thier political ideals," which in both of the examples I've mentioned to me they plainly and abjectly were.
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Which is all very nice and anecdotal, but not a rebuttal much less a refutation of Maeght's point that the police: "... should not be agents of the Government of the day to enforce thier political ideals," which in both of the examples I've mentioned to me they plainly and abjectly were.
There are many who regard the 'plainly and abjectly were' bit as questionable, including some of those who were on the other side of the argument.
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Can you give me any examples of when they didn't coincide from, say, the last 30 years?
Can you? You suggested the often coincide, suggesting they don't always.
I would say that the level of violence shown by the Police at Orgreave, during the mounted charge for example, suggests that they were 'taking the fight' to the miners and looking to teach them a lesson. The level of violence was greater I think than was needed to prevent the obstruction of the lorries and the like. 93 people were arrested but none were found guilty in court I believe. A number of lawsuits were brought against Police officers for assault and compensation and legal costs were paid by the police force. there is apparently evidence of attempts by the police to coordinate their statements to try to ensure that miners were charged with rioting.
I understand that times were difficult and that there were bad apples on both sides but surely we should expect the police, as a whole, to behave better than that.
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I understand that times were difficult and that there were bad apples on both sides but surely we should expect the police, as a whole, to behave better than that.
They are but human; and suffer from the same weaknesses and and faults as any other humans.
As I pointed out when I started this thread, I was not in the UK during much of the strike and Orgreave occurred about a month before I returned so all that I have discovered has been through eye-witness accounts from a few miners I know, the media and press releases from groups such as the NUM and the Orgreave Truth and Justice group. The comments I have heard from miners who were there suggest that the claims of the NUM, especially, overstate the case to their own advantage. That isn't to say that there wasn't police misconduct (we only have to look at Hillsborough and more recent police behaviour to appreciate that).
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They are but human; and suffer from the same weaknesses and and faults as any other humans.
Absolutely, but I'm not referring to individuals so much as the force as a whole and the way it was used.
As I pointed out when I started this thread, I was not in the UK during much of the strike and Orgreave occurred about a month before I returned so all that I have discovered has been through eye-witness accounts from a few miners I know, the media and press releases from groups such as the NUM and the Orgreave Truth and Justice group. The comments I have heard from miners who were there suggest that the claims of the NUM, especially, overstate the case to their own advantage. That isn't to say that there wasn't police misconduct (we only have to look at Hillsborough and more recent police behaviour to appreciate that).
There is a lot of film footage on the web which is worth looking at but of course both 'sides' have used spin in presenting their case. In someways though that is the point - the police shouldn't be a 'side' and shouldn't be spinning anything -but we now know from events like Hillsborough that they have done and we need to make sure when it might have happened that it is investigated and brought into the open.