Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => Science and Technology => Topic started by: Nearly Sane on January 22, 2016, 09:14:17 AM
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While this is being in part discussed on the Searching for God thread, that's from a very specific viewpoint, I thought it might be useful to have a more focused thread.
I thought the first episode was pretty good, nothing particularly groundbreaking, though a lot of leg breaking (just ow!). The illustration of consciousness lag was very clear. It also emphasised how so much of what we find out about how the brain works I when things go wrong.
One thing that, while it was covered, I thought could have been given greater depth is that even where we think our experiences match with others, we can't tell that there is anything that is the same, in part because our own experiences are modulated.
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Just started watching this - have just past the bit about vision, and the wearing of goggles that reverse left and right. The difference between the presenter trying this for the first time, and struggling, compared with the other guy who has had time to adjust and whose brain has kind of re-mapped reality so that he can function is quite unsettling. Reality isn't necessarily quite as it seems.
Still watching!
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I thought it a good programme overall, well explained, engaging. I liked the analogy of a city, quite useful, that
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If anyone wanted to do reading on synaesthesia which is briefly covered, 'The Man who Tasted Shapes' by Richard Cytowic, and 'The Mind of a Mnemonist' by Alexander Luria are good places to start. Oliver Sacks covers it as well and was greatly influenced by Luria's presentation of the case in Mnemonist.
On a general note, almost any of Sacks' stuff is worth reading because he is a good clear writer who has enormous curiosity and empathy. The Man Who Mistook His Wife For A Hat is a good start, and can be read while listening to the opera it inspired.
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Given that I am off on some book recommendations, and given the stuff on other thread about being like children, Lewis Wolpert's 'The Unnatural Nature of Science' is a good explanation of why it needs us not just not to be like children, but also to fight against the easy assumption of things being how they appear.
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On the subject of synaesthesia, I think I have a mild form with numbers in that if I here a number it seems to have a physical place in a table that 'feels' as if it is on my right hand side in front of me. Anyone else have any form of it?
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I thought it was a reasonably good program. Most of the ideas expressed I was already aware of, but I thought they were put over pretty well. I found the idea that the largest amount of brain activity seems to come from itself reacting to and selecting from the optical stimuli to be interesting though. Yes, I liked the analogy of the city, also. Looking forward to the next program in the series.
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On the subject of synaesthesia, I think I have a mild form with numbers in that if I here a number it seems to have a physical place in a table that 'feels' as if it is on my right hand side in front of me. Anyone else have any form of it?
I think I may - the musical form, which is relatively common and relatively well known. This consists of somehow "seeing" - not literally; it's more "feeling" - musical keys associated with colours. It's almost impossible to put into words why C major is bright yellow, G major is brown, D major is bright green and A major is royal blue, but it just is.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromesthesia
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Wasn't it Liszt who supposedly gave orchestras instructions to play more yellow, or less red?
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Wasn't it Liszt who supposedly gave orchestras instructions to play more yellow, or less red?
Quite possibly - the one composer I definitely know who had chromesthesia was Scriabin (admittedly not very well known except to music wonks).
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If anyone wanted to do reading on synaesthesia which is briefly covered, 'The Man who Tasted Shapes' by Richard Cytowic, and 'The Mind of a Mnemonist' by Alexander Luria are good places to start. Oliver Sacks covers it as well and was greatly influenced by Luria's presentation of the case in Mnemonist.
On a general note, almost any of Sacks' stuff is worth reading because he is a good clear writer who has enormous curiosity and empathy. The Man Who Mistook His Wife For A Hat is a good start, and can be read while listening to the opera it inspired.
I have a little bit of synaesthesia in that the days are coloured for me, plus the days of the week form a certain shape, as does the Calendar from Jan to Dec, and lastly numbers from 1 to 1000.
Does anyone else have colours or shapes/positions for Days or Numbers?
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Since I've been on this forum discussing this kind of thing, I've begun to wonder if the quirk in my brain that makes me an animist is something similar.
And I know that some people with OCD dislike odd numbers. I've always been the opposite - I prefer them to even numbers to the point where I've actually felt some kind of sympathy for them.
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Quite possibly - the one composer I definitely know who had chromesthesia was Scriabin (admittedly not very well known except to music wonks).
http://www.themusiciansbrain.com/?p=384
Some others, including Liszt
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I have a little bit of synaesthesia in that the days are coloured for me, plus the days of the week form a certain shape, as does the Calendar from Jan to Dec, and lastly numbers from 1 to 1000.
Does anyone else have colours or shapes/positions for Days or Numbers?
Combining this and Rhiannon's question about odd/even. Monday, Wednesday, and Friday are cold days while Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday are warm days. Sunday is somewhere in between.
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I've always really disliked the number six. It's not as repellant now as I found it as a child, but I still find it irritating. Not 66 though.
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Dear Berational,
Fascinating stuff, I just tried a little thought experiment, all numbers are black to me.
Dear Rhiannon,
Yes I definitely prefer odd numbers, 3, 7, 13, 17, 19, 21, especially 13, I once put a a pound chip on 13 on two separate roulette tables, they both came up at the same time, that was a good night.
Dear Sane,
Days of the week, just light and dark, Mondays dark, Fridays light, I am in a good mood right now, that Friday feeling ::)
Gonnagle.
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19 - lovely number.
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Dear Rhiannon,
It is, what a weird lot us humans are.
3 is a magic number ( no it's not Gonnagle it is just a song ) did you ever play five stanes ( stones in English ) actually that is probably because we have five fingers on each hand.
http://www.theguardian.com/science/2014/apr/13/favourite-number-survey-psychology
Odd numbers are dodgy, does that mean we are both dodgy, are we both Arthur Daley types. :P :P
Gonnagle.
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You're all a bunch of weirdos :o
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Dear Shaker,
You're all a bunch of weirdos
Now that is a fact.
Gonnagle.
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http://www.livescience.com/15859-odd-numbers-male-female.html
Gender of odd or even numbers ...
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You're all a bunch of weirdos :o
Thank goodness somebody has said what I've been thinking! :)
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Odd numbers (apart from one) have symmetry and balance - as there's always a middle point. I read that somewhere - it makes sense.
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You're all a bunch of weirdos :o
I concur.
To me numbers are, well, numbers, notes are notes etc and should remain so.
Now I'm off down to the pub to meet my mate at 7.15.
I'm good at remembering appointments e.g 7.15 on a Friday in the pub - is two carrots past a chicken in a spaceship!
Slàinte
;)
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I concur.
To me numbers are, well, numbers, notes are notes etc and should remain so.
Now I'm off down to the pub to meet my mate at 7.15.
I'm good at remembering appointments e.g 7.15 on a Friday in the pub - is two carrots past a chicken in a spaceship!
Slàinte
;)
Two carrots?
Freak.
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Two carrots?
Freak.
Well, what can I do if a carrot on a Friday is equivalent to 7.5 of your earth minutes? :-\
However on a Saturday a carrot is the number 17 bus, which takes me past the same pub but arrives later when the honey roasted peanuts are in conjunction with Saturn.
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Dear Seb,
Another myth shattered, Eastcoasters do have a sense of humour. ;)
Wait!! waaaaiit! you were born in Glasgow but by some wicked twist of fate you were transported to the eastcoast. :P
Gonnagle.
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Dear Rhiannon,
It is, what a weird lot us humans are.
3 is a magic number ( no it's not Gonnagle it is just a song ) did you ever play five stanes ( stones in English ) actually that is probably because we have five fingers on each hand.
http://www.theguardian.com/science/2014/apr/13/favourite-number-survey-psychology
Odd numbers are dodgy, does that mean we are both dodgy, are we both Arthur Daley types. :P :P
Gonnagle.
Odd numbers are difficult. They don't conform. People don't like them much. But they are so much more beautiful than even ones. They aren't afraid to be different.
So yes, numbers have personalities. And apparently I like dodgy ones.
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Dear Rhiannon,
I quite liked Susan's post, odd numbers have a kind of symmetry, they have middle, they are balanced :)
Gonnagle.
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Yes, we are supposed to find symmetrical faces the most beautiful. I think there's a conformity in that that just doesn't appeal to me. And (not liking maths much) even numbers should be my preference because they are easier to use in mental maths, at least in my experience. But i prefer odd numbers because they have a better 'personality' of non-conformity. I suppose odd numbers could be seen as misshapen. Quite what that says about my aesthetic sense I have no idea.
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Dear Rhiannon,
The really strange thing is that I understand exactly what you are talking about, non conforming numbers. ;)
You know!! I have just received some fantastic news but I am now sitting here thinking, why the hell did they tell me :o I am the biggest blabbermouth in my whole family, I will have to go into hiding for the next couple of weeks, one thing is bloody sure, I cannot go out drinking with any of my family, I can't keep secrets, bugger >:( >:(
Gonnagle.
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I find that it is even numbers that have a middle for me because of 0
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I think I may - the musical form, which is relatively common and relatively well known. This consists of somehow "seeing" - not literally; it's more "feeling" - musical keys associated with colours. It's almost impossible to put into words why C major is bright yellow, G major is brown, D major is bright green and A major is royal blue, but it just is.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromesthesia
Shaker
I know this phenomenon is well attested among some very distinguished musicians and composers - Scriabin in particular. However, when you consider how standard pitches have varied down the centuries, (about a tone lower than modern concert pitch during the time of Beethoven, I think) and several pitches have existed throughout the world at any one time, this makes it even more difficult for those of us who don't experience this phenomenon to understand.
This also seems to make nonsense of a related phenomenon - how composers viewed the 'mood' evoked by certain keys. Beethoven's 'noble' key was E flat major, yet this would have sounded somewhat lower-pitched in his day. Mozart seemed to think A major was sunny etc and the same applies.
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And of course a major third sounds right-on, joyful, optimistic, whereas a minor third immediately sounds mournful or sad.
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I learnt something called the Internal Model which explains what I often get when I'm falling asleep. I see situations or scenes which are totally like real life but I know they are not. If one thinks of a tree, and a scene around it, one is aware of a kind of effort one is making to create this but these scenes I see in this half sleep state need no effort at all, they seem to be totally independent of my will and effort like real life. They are though of nothing or no one I know. They are also very tranquil and delicious.
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And of course a major third sounds right-on, joyful, optimistic, whereas a minor third immediately sounds mournful or sad.
Only in the last few hundred years. In European music at first there was only monody, then came singing in two parts, and the only permissible intervals were perfect fourths and fifths. All other intervals were considered discordant in varying degrees, including major and minor thirds. The Diabolos in musica was the augmented fourth (are you there, AB?)
The major-minor contrast has been deliberately reversed by some composers in more recent history. Gluck wrote his famous lament for Orpheus on the loss of his Euridice in the major key, and Mendelssohn wrote the very mercurial and perky overture to A Midsummer Night's Dream in the minor.
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Only in the last few hundred years. In European music at first there was only monody, then came singing in two parts, and the only permissible intervals were perfect fourths and fifths. All other intervals were considered discordant in varying degrees, including major and minor thirds. The Diabolos in musica was the augmented fourth (are you there, AB?)
The major-minor contrast has been deliberately reversed by some composers in more recent history. Gluck wrote his famous lament for Orpheus on the loss of his Euridice in the major key, and Mendelssohn wrote the very mercurial and perky overture to A Midsummer Night's Dream in the minor.
hugely interesting post. It has triggered off a thought about our individual taste in music, there are certain songs, pieces of music that I cry at and in part that is about the generalised ideas of what is sad in the music that I have encountered, but perhaps there is an additional specific learned understanding because I can play those songs to people, with equivalent in a broad sense background, and there is little reaction. And yet there is a cultural and indeed age based reaction. The emergence of what is called twee pop in the Glasgow area in the early to mid eighties seems to me influenced by the confluence of influences of specific types of folk, rock, country. It is a sound more Hunky Dory than Ziggy Stardust, though both are seminal.
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When I look at paintings I often get the impression that what I'm seeing must be totally different from what the artist saw. Otherwise he'd have given up painting.
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Since I've been on this forum discussing this kind of thing, I've begun to wonder if the quirk in my brain that makes me an animist is something similar.
And I know that some people with OCD dislike odd numbers. I've always been the opposite - I prefer them to even numbers to the point where I've actually felt some kind of sympathy for them.
I always count the number of letters in names & phrases (but not full sentences) and don't really like it if they come out as an odd number. Certainly a touch of OCD there.
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I always count the number of letters in names & phrases (but not full sentences) and don't really like it if they come out as an odd number. Certainly a touch of OCD there.
A couple of friends that I have with OCD both have to set the frequency on radios to even numbers, and the volume on tvs, stereos etc. They get quite anxious if they can't change it.
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Interesting bit in part 2 about the wave patterns of the brain during consciousness, dreaming and non-dreaming deep sleep.
Does anyone here understand exactly, and in detail, what an EEG is measuring; it can't be single neurons, but the graphs are so neat?