Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: floo on March 03, 2016, 12:24:56 PM
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I'd like my 20 year old body but without losing all the experience I've gained since then.
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Peace, warmth. No hassles or worries.
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I get exactly where Jerrmy's coming from. I'd like another crack at it but with the knowledge and perspective I have now.
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I certainly wouldn't want an eternity of telling the supreme cosmic mega being how great he is.
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I don't wish for one or believe in one. It seems to me to diminish the reality and (if you're lucky) joy and wonder of life here and now. Even if you're unlucky and live a short life full of pain, misery and anguish, that sad fact doesn't thereby make an afterlife more likely, only more desirable and that's a different thing altogether.
I go with Robert Ingersoll - one life at a time is more than enough to be going on with - and with Richard Dawkins on the essential greed of desiring an afterlife. Look at the world around you and ask yourself: "What more do you want?" Adding an infinite string of zeroes to zero still adds up to zero; life is not made meaningful by positing an infinite/eternal stock of it - exactly the opposite.
If there is such a thing, I would hope it's more of the same, with many of the hindrances and obstacles cleared away. Although A.C. Grayling's idea of an afterlife in a vast, vast library with tea making facilities, and in my case lots of cats, is on a par.
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I don't understand wanting eternity. What I do get is the fear of loss and how an afterlife does away with the idea that when our nears and dears are gone, they're gone.
But yeah, this is heaven, this is paradise. It's messy and complicated and hurts sometimes, but it's blazing.
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I don't understand wanting eternity. What I do get is the fear of loss and how an afterlife does away with the idea that when our nears and dears are gone, they're gone.
But yeah, this is heaven, this is paradise. It's messy and complicated and hurts sometimes, but it's blazing.
Nicely put. I can relate eternity to this moment, rather than an endless collection of moments. You can't measure now.
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A long time ago, by sheer coincidence, in quick succession I came across John MacTaggart's famous paper The Unreality of Time and The End of Time by the physicist Julian Barbour, both of which argue - one philosophically, one in terms of physics - that time as we ordinarily think of it is an illusion, a convenient, even necessary fiction in everyday life but ultimately a phantom with no actual inherent existence of its own. I've long wanted to do a thread on it, but it's massively complicated (and difficult to do without diagrams and images) so I've never got round to it. (Yet).
Anyway, this view is essentially the same as that expressed by Wittgenstein when he said that death is never an event in life - when you're alive you're alive, but once death has supervened you can never know it (because you're dead). Life will surely stop at some point, but we can never know of it because when that point comes, we are by definition dead and therefore unaware of it. So in practical terms, for us there is only life that goes on and on until it doesn't; and since we're unaware of it when it doesn't, in effect we live an eternal life right here and right now, every moment. Borges said something very similar also. I like that.
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Very good, Shaker. A thread on it would be fun. Well, maybe. It might get caught up in antitheist ontological naturalism, I suppose.
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*sigh* Yes, wiggles, it might very well ... ::)
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I've never tried to grapple with understanding the notion that time is necessary but illusory, but it appeals to me no end. I like the idea of reality as I think of it just falling away. This is just a story; remove gods and we realise we're the authors of it.
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I've never tried to grapple with understanding the notion that time is necessary but illusory, but it appeals to me no end.
Barbour's book is superb, but a pig. Even at the popular science level it takes several readings, countless notes and a lot of thinking time to get the gist of everything he's trying to convey and even then it still makes your temples throb and your bum go funny.
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If an afterlife of some sort does exist, we aren't likely to be the same people we were at death? Would a child remain a child, a person with disabilities still have them, an elderly person with dementia remain demented, etc? Would we have the same relationship with our relatives and friends?
I suppose it is just a possibility that people continually move from one full life experience to another, where they become totally different characters in each.
From my point of view I prefer the idea of ceasing to be completely when I die. If that is the case I won't miss anyone or anything.
If you wish for an afterlife, what would you want it to be like?
Why don't you study some of the NDE cases and see what they say?!! There are literally millions of them. You might learn something there instead of all these idle musings and personal opinions on here.
http://www.near-death.com/
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What floo was asking was what sort of afterlife we would want, if we believed in an afterlife.
Many Orthodox Jews do not believe in Heaven as Christians (& others) are taught, they believe in the here and now and making the world better for the next generation. If there are rewards they will be experienced in life.
I have said what I would like an afterlife to be like for me. At the same time I think it is a good idea to do the best we can with this life which is the only one we know, that means enjoying ourselves as well as looking out for others and bearing trials and tribulations as best we can. This world is a wonderful place and our society is far more caring now than it has ever been (better than when I was growing up), those are things to be celebrated.
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Why don't you study some of the NDE cases and see what they say?!! There are literally millions of them. You might learn something there instead of all these idle musings and personal opinions on here.
http://www.near-death.com/
Why would they say anything over and above personal opinion themselves?
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Why would they say anything over and above personal opinion themselves?
That is what I find curious about the claims of the god/spirit believers. They seem to think that because someone has experienced such things, it somehow makes them true, regardless of the fact that their is no evidence for them beyond that.
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Siriam, I have read about NDEs and even posted on forums with a couple of people who had had them. They are all different!
One of my fellow posters saw himself looking into several rooms where people had done to them what they had done to others - quite scary. The other one felt he had been given true knowledge and faith and thereafter his beliefs were a mixture of different religions and a bit of original material. Both were quite convinced by their experiences and would not be budged, not that anyone tried to budge them to my knowledge. Other things I've read about are people floating above their unconscious body during resuscitation or on the operating table. Certainly near death experiences have an indelible impact on some people. Not always pleasant.
Years ago there was a lot of talk on forums about a report from an Irish man who had been stung by a poisonous jellyfish, his heart stopped beating for quite a while and he was 'dead', though not brain dead because he was resuscitated. After that he claimed to have been brought back to life from death and God had shown him the glories to come (all based on the faith he already had). Lots of posters on forums were full of his story, considering it a miracle.
A near death experience is a dream. The dreams we remember are the ones we have shortly before waking, they may not last long but in our dreams time has little meaning. We can spend hours or even days in a dream whereas, in reality, it has only been a few minutes. Our subconscious and unconscious are marvellous store rooms.
Near death experiences take place - obviously before death - not long before regaining consciousness and the mind seems to work overtime then.
I am a great dreamer and some of my dreams I remember very well indeed, others fade. I've never had a NDE despite having been in a coma (don't particularly want one). Indeed when I came round I remembered what had happened immediately before but not during the coma. I hope, if I had a NDE, I would apply common sense. If it was pleasant I might take some cosy comfort and 'revisit' it occasionally but sincerely hope I wouldn't shout about it.
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Hi Brownie,
Actually I have studied NDE's quite a bit for many years and read many books about them. Request you to pl read Dr. Raymond Moody (one of the first researchers in the 1970's...'Life after Life') and Dr. Sam Parnia (very recent book...'What happens when we die?') besides others.
Pl check out the following if you want.
https://tsriramrao.wordpress.com/2012/01/19/near-death-expe/
Most NDE's have very common features.
!. Floating above the body and seeing it from outside, Feeling of detachment from body.
2. Seeing and hearing activities associated with the body in the hospital or accident site.
3. Seeing dead relatives.
4. Moving through a spiral tunnel or staircase.
5. Seeing a bright light and a feeling of love and absolute knowledge.
6. Some people see others waiting for reincarnation (Christian NDE's not Hindus).
7. Born blind people are able to see like everyone.
8. Being told to go back.
9. Finding oneself being drawn back into the body.
10.Feeling a sense of heaviness and regret at coming back into the body.
11. Recalling conversations and activities in the hospital....corroborated by doctors and nurses.
12. Some people claim 'death is no big deal' and even look forward to dying again....though they feel a new sense of duty in this world.
There are literally millions of cases across the globe and people of all religions, races, nationality, cultures, sex and age groups have been studied for over 40 years. These experiences are certainly not dreams or imagination.
Of course, there are some negative NDE's (about 20%) where the person feels fear and distress. There are also some different interpretations of who the Bright Light is. Some say Jesus ...some say Ram ...or Krishna ...or whatever.
It is also possible that there are some cases with very different experiences from the norm.....but a majority of the cases have the above pattern.
Most of us will naturally view these cases in the light of our own beliefs and comfort levels. Some people say..'they are all the same..so they cannot be real experiences...they must be brain generated visions'. Some others say...' they are all so different ..so they cannot be real experiences...they must be dreams or hallucinations'.
So...it is a mystery ...but some doctors like Sam Parnia and many others are still studying the cases. Unlikely that they will be able to offer final and conclusive reports on them.
To me, they are real Out of Body experiences and real After Death Experiences (Sam Parnia has specifically mentioned that) and not Near Death Experiences. They do offer us a glimpse of what lies ahead for us after death.
Cheers.
Sriram
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http://billygraham.org/answer/what-will-we-look-like-when-we-get-to-heaven-2/
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Perhaps one needs to distinguish between 'life', 'life forms' 'life events', 'mental forms' and 'mental events'. Death is the absence of 'life' from physical life forms and where applicable from mental forms and events. This assumes that 'life' exists in its own right and does not necessarily require a form, but to know it, requires an associated consciousness. There are some who claim to consciously associate with 'life' in the body and might say 'I am the life', rather than identifying with the body or the mind, and they become life oriented. Others, perhaps, identify more with the body and mind and become death oriented. If life continues after its absence from the form it has previously taken then consciousness is necessary to know this otherwise it is irrelevant as unconsciousness (eternal darkness) become the default state.
As regards: "If you wish for an afterlife, what would you want it to be like?" my answer would be wait and 'see'.
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http://billygraham.org/answer/what-will-we-look-like-when-we-get-to-heaven-2/
Like he would know.
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Just think heven would be hell for non-religious people; all of that eternity stuff with loads of nausiously smug religios and if it really was heaven I assume you wouldn't be able to kill yourself, what a nightmare.
ippy
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Ippy, the idea of Heaven is that we will all get on, no more conflict. What is important to us now will not be when we are there. So.....we can't imagine it, it's beyond us.
Thanks for the Billy Graham link, OMW.
Mr Graham hasn't said much, wisely, except that it is all beyond our imagination.
Best to concentrate on what we have now.
Sririam, thanks for links etc. I will read further.
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David Eagleman touched on the possibility of immortality in his last episode of The Brain. In a sense, the 'person' that we are, is an information product, essentially, information currently written on organic compounds, so we could in principle capture that information and 'resurrect' it perhaps using a novel substrate such as silicon technology. There are quite a few already dead people in cryogenic storage who were hoping for some such technological resurrection in the future. My guess is these individuals have no hope, the information capture would have needed to be done before death and much of it is now destroyed through the freezing process. That doesn't mean that improved procedures in the future will not be able to 'capture' a person and store it on file.
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David Eagleman touched on the possibility of immortality in his last episode of The Brain. In a sense, the 'person' that we are, is an information product, essentially, information currently written on organic compounds, so we could in principle capture that information and 'resurrect' it perhaps using a novel substrate such as silicon technology. There are quite a few already dead people in cryogenic storage who were hoping for some such technological resurrection in the future. My guess is these individuals have no hope, the information capture would have needed to be done before death and much of it is now destroyed through the freezing process. That doesn't mean that improved procedures in the future will not be able to 'capture' a person and store it on file.
But resurrection is impossible according to antitheists on this board like Gordon.
I think there is also question of where the information actually is at anyone time and the substrate vs organisation question.
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But resurrection is impossible according to antitheists on this board like Gordon.
I think there is also question of where the information actually is at anyone time and the substrate vs organisation question.
Impossible with our current primitive technology. Maybe far in the future when granny dies we can save her into the DropBox account until a new starter body becomes available and then it will be a copy/paste job under Windows 1000000.01; maybe there will be new options under Paste Special then : paste all, paste memories, paste the nice bits only ....
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Ippy, the idea of Heaven is that we will all get on, no more conflict. What is important to us now will not be when we are there. So.....we can't imagine it, it's beyond us.
Thanks for the Billy Graham link, OMW.
Mr Graham hasn't said much, wisely, except that it is all beyond our imagination.
Best to concentrate on what we have now.
Sririam, thank
Yes the idea of heaven, Mr Brownie.
ippy
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Yes, that's what I said ippy. And I ain't a bloke!
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Yes, that's what I said ippy. And I ain't a bloke!
Apologies Ms Brownie, but it does remain an idea, that's all, an unsupported and unsupportable idea.
ippy
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I wasn't trying to support it Ippy, merely saying what I would like in the afterworld, if it turns out that there is one.
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.......
Sririam, thanks for links etc. I will read further.
Brownie, regards NDEs, the work of Pim van Lommel is something else to look-up:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Consciousness-Beyond-Life-Near-Death-Experience/dp/0061777269
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A cat dies and goes to Heaven. God meets him at the gate and says,'you have been a good cat all of these years. Anything you desire is yours,all you have to do is ask.' The cat says,'Well, I lived all my life with a poor family on a farm and had to sleep on hardwood floors.' God says,'Say no more.' And instantly, a fluffy pillow appears.
A few days later,6 mice are killed in a tragic accident and they go to Heaven. God meets them at the gate with the same offer that He made the cat. The mice said,'All our lives we've had to run. Cats,dogs and even women with brooms have chased us. If we could only have a pair of roller skates,we wouldn't have to run anymore.' God says,'Say no more.' And instantly, each mouse is fitted with a beautiful pair of tiny roller skates.
About a week later,God decides to check and see how the cat is doing. The cat is sound asleep on his new pillow. God gently wakes him and asks,'How are you doing? Are you happy here?' The cat yawns and stretches and says,'Oh,I've never been happier in my life. And those Meals on Wheels you've been sending over are the best!'
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For me there would have to be a sense of humour :)
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Two priests die at the same time and meet St. Peter at the Pearly Gates. St. Peter says, "I'd like to get you guys in now but our computers are down. You'll have to go back to Earth for about a week, but you can't go back as humans. What'll it be?"
The first priest says, "I've always wanted to be an eagle, soaring above the Rocky Mountains."
"So be it," says St. Peter, and off flies the first priest.
The second priest mulls this over for a moment and asks, "Will you be keeping track of us, St. Peter ?"
"No, I told you the computer is down. There's no way we can keep track of what you are doing. This week's a freebie."
"In that case," says the second priest, "I've always wanted to be a stud."
"So be it," says St. Peter, and the second priest disappears.
A week goes by, the computer is fixed and the Lord tells St. Peter to recall the two priests.
"Will you have trouble locating them?" He asks.
"The first one should be easy," says St. Peter. "He's somewhere over the Rocky Mountains, flying with the eagles. But the second one could prove to be more difficult."
"Why?" asks the Lord.
"Because he's on a snow tire somewhere in Alaska."
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Two priests die at the same time and meet St. Peter at the Pearly Gates. St. Peter says, "I'd like to get you guys in now but our computers are down. You'll have to go back to Earth for about a week, but you can't go back as humans. What'll it be?"
The first priest says, "I've always wanted to be an eagle, soaring above the Rocky Mountains."
"So be it," says St. Peter, and off flies the first priest.
The second priest mulls this over for a moment and asks, "Will you be keeping track of us, St. Peter ?"
"No, I told you the computer is down. There's no way we can keep track of what you are doing. This week's a freebie."
"In that case," says the second priest, "I've always wanted to be a stud."
"So be it," says St. Peter, and the second priest disappears.
A week goes by, the computer is fixed and the Lord tells St. Peter to recall the two priests.
"Will you have trouble locating them?" He asks.
"The first one should be easy," says St. Peter. "He's somewhere over the Rocky Mountains, flying with the eagles. But the second one could prove to be more difficult."
"Why?" asks the Lord.
"Because he's on a snow tire somewhere in Alaska."
;D
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Two priests die at the same time and meet St. Peter at the Pearly Gates. St. Peter says, "I'd like to get you guys in now but our computers are down. You'll have to go back to Earth for about a week, but you can't go back as humans. What'll it be?"
The first priest says, "I've always wanted to be an eagle, soaring above the Rocky Mountains."
"So be it," says St. Peter, and off flies the first priest.
The second priest mulls this over for a moment and asks, "Will you be keeping track of us, St. Peter ?"
"No, I told you the computer is down. There's no way we can keep track of what you are doing. This week's a freebie."
"In that case," says the second priest, "I've always wanted to be a stud."
"So be it," says St. Peter, and the second priest disappears.
A week goes by, the computer is fixed and the Lord tells St. Peter to recall the two priests.
"Will you have trouble locating them?" He asks.
"The first one should be easy," says St. Peter. "He's somewhere over the Rocky Mountains, flying with the eagles. But the second one could prove to be more difficult."
"Why?" asks the Lord.
"Because he's on a snow tire somewhere in Alaska."
It's about time somebody invented a decent vocabulary where each word meant one thing only. >:(
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It's about time somebody invented a decent vocabulary where each word meant one thing only. >:(
Ah, but then we'd end up with Newspeak in Nineteen Eighty-Four, and that's no language that I'd want to speak.
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Ah, but then we'd end up with Newspeak in Nineteen Eighty-Four, and that's no language that I'd want to speak.
If I were younger and more energetic, Steve, I would investigate that, but I'm taking the easy way out, :)
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Allow me: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newspeak
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It's about time somebody invented a decent vocabulary where each word meant one thing only. >:(
Len, the richness of our (often infuriating) language is a joy. Sometimes looking for words reminds me of the way children try to grab dandelion seeds blowing on the wind. Just do it for fun.
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Allow me: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newspeak
Thank you mate, but I only got about a third of the way through before boredom overtook me.
Now I'm sorry I suggested it in the first place! ;D
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Floo,
The Hindu belief is that there are seven worlds (Bhu, Bhuvar, Swar, Mahar, Jana, Tapa and Satya). The seventh is the highest (probably the term 'Seventh Heaven' comes from this). Different people go to different worlds after death depending on their spiritual levels. They all come back to this world again and again in different bodies so as to mix and learn and progress further.
Their birth will depend on their karma and their specific need to experience and learn. These things happen automatically and does not need any God to decide. Just as lighter object float and heavier objects sink.
The higher the spiritual level a person is in...the longer they will take to reincarnate. Time scales are different at different levels because change happens more slowly at higher levels compared to lower levels.
When people progress beyond the Satya level...they do not come back to earth. This is eternal freedom or Liberation.
FYI.
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That's interesting Sriram, does anyone have an idea of what eternal freedom and liberation will be like? My mum used to say, ''No-one has been back to tell us'', I wonder if it is the same for Hindus or if some Hindus have, or believe they have, more insight. Thanks.
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That's interesting Sriram, does anyone have an idea of what eternal freedom and liberation will be like? My mum used to say, ''No-one has been back to tell us'', I wonder if it is the same for Hindus or if some Hindus have, or believe they have, more insight. Thanks.
Nothing extraordinary I expect. There are parts of it in your current personality already.
It is a development, evolution or progression from an ignorant, self centric and need based living to a more universal, wise and selfless living. Its a growing up!
We already know how that will be except that now we also have the selfish, ignorant and pleasure seeking part attached which keeps demanding its share of the attention. Just imagine that the latter part falls off....that's what Liberation will be like.
Problem is that it doesn't just fall off. It has to erode and disintegrate over several births.
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I'm fascinated Sriram, thank you.
Also thank you to SweetPea for the book recommendation, of which I have made a note.
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Floo,
The Hindu belief is that there are seven worlds (Bhu, Bhuvar, Swar, Mahar, Jana, Tapa and Satya). The seventh is the highest (probably the term 'Seventh Heaven' comes from this). Different people go to different worlds after death depending on their spiritual levels. They all come back to this world again and again in different bodies so as to mix and learn and progress further.
Their birth will depend on their karma and their specific need to experience and learn. These things happen automatically and does not need any God to decide. Just as lighter object float and heavier objects sink.
The higher the spiritual level a person is in...the longer they will take to reincarnate. Time scales are different at different levels because change happens more slowly at higher levels compared to lower levels.
When people progress beyond the Satya level...they do not come back to earth. This is eternal freedom or Liberation.
FYI.
Good gawd! I would have said you couldn't even dream it up ... but somebody has. :)
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Isn't it pleasant though, Len?
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Isn't it pleasant though, Len?
Yes, but so is a lot of fiction, providing we don't actually believe it true.
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Isn't it pleasant though, Len?
That captures a lot of why humans entertain such an extraordinary diversity of beliefs. 'I like to think so ...' sums up the reason many beliefs are held. Just as we decorate our houses with furniture to suit, wall-hangings from that market in Bangkok, a nice carpet picked up in Ankara, we fit out our heads with beliefs we are comfortable with, and quite often, it doesn't really matter to the individual whether they are really true or not.
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Well....NDE's are true! Here is a fairly recent article on it from BBC.
http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20150303-what-its-really-like-to-die
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I see no harm in having pleasant thoughts, be they realistic or fantasies, torridon. It's soothing to be able to escape from some situations, to travel in your head. Quite therapeutic. That isn't the same as believing fantasies to be true, such as children believing in fairies or Santa Claus.
Siriam, I read the article. It really doesn't say anything that hasn't been said before. I've no doubt that people have near death experiences, what they signify is debatable. I don't see how their significance can be proved one way or the other.
The only thing I know is that I do not want a NDE. No thank you! If I did, I'm sure it would be horrible.
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So what about adults who believe in fairies and nature spirits, Brownie? Why are their beliefs and imaginings different?
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Well....NDE's are true!
You would have been more accurate if you'd said that NDEs are real - in that people definitely have experiences and are not lying about doing so - rather than 'true.'
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Well....NDE's are true! Here is a fairly recent article on it from BBC.
http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20150303-what-its-really-like-to-die
Depriving a brain of oxygen doesn't mean that it is immediately unable to observe (and later) recall things.
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I don't suppose they are any different to that of children, Rhiannon. Can't say I've ever come across an adult who believed in them but I'm sure they exist. The people, not the fairies ;). I thought I saw a fairy in the lampshade in my bedroom when I was a child, nearly had a fit. Also had nightmares from reading European fairy stories. Some of them are so gruesome and not suitable for children.
Rupert and his friends in Nutwood are very pleasant.
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It is quite obvious from NDE's that at least in some cases, the patients are able to recall events and activities that they could not have possibly known of. And in such cases it has also been confirmed that the patients were clinically 'brain dead', as confirmed by the doctors.
It is clear from this that NDE's are not to be taken lightly and dismissed away as many people tend to do. Why NDE's should not be considered as probable evidence for an after-life is therefore not clear.
Quite evidently people prefer to hold on to their beliefs (religious, atheistic or otherwise) and come up with convoluted explanations for NDE's rather than accept a fairly common experience as indicative of reality. This is not dissimilar to some people considering the moon landings as a hoax....regardless of all evidence to the contrary.
It is a mindset problem. Coming generations would certainly be more open to accepting NDE's as evidence for an after-life.
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I don't suppose they are any different to that of children, Rhiannon. Can't say I've ever come across an adult who believed in them but I'm sure they exist. The people, not the fairies ;). I thought I saw a fairy in the lampshade in my bedroom when I was a child, nearly had a fit. Also had nightmares from reading European fairy stories. Some of them are so gruesome and not suitable for children.
Rupert and his friends in Nutwood are very pleasant.
So are you saying that adults who believe in fairies are like children believing in stories? Is that different to adults believing in God, Jesus or heaven?
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It is quite obvious from NDE's that at least in some cases, the patients are able to recall events and activities that they could not have possibly known of.
For example?
And in such cases it has also been confirmed that the patients were clinically 'brain dead', as confirmed by the doctors.
Clinically brain dead does not mean dead. If they recover, they weren't dead.
It is clear from this that NDE's are not to be taken lightly and dismissed away as many people tend to do. Why NDE's should not be considered as probable evidence for an after-life is therefore not clear.
Understanding what NDEs are is not "taking them lightly". What we mustn't do is assume they mean anything more than brain activity.
Quite evidently people prefer to hold on to their beliefs (religious, atheistic or otherwise) and come up with convoluted explanations for NDE's rather than accept a fairly common experience as indicative of reality. This is not dissimilar to some people considering the moon landings as a hoax....regardless of all evidence to the contrary.
The moon landings were actual facts, NDEs often aren't.
It is a mindset problem. Coming generations would certainly be more open to accepting NDE's as evidence for an after-life.
I do hope not.
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You are just petrified at the possibility of an after-life....Len. That's your problem! :)
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You are just petrified at the possibility of an after-life....Len. That's your problem! :)
What petrifies me is the willingness of some people to invent stuff just to avoid facing the finality of death!
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What petrifies me is the willingness of some people to invent stuff just to avoid facing the finality of death!
I don't think Dr. Sam Parnia and his patients are doing any such thing.
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I don't think Dr. Sam Parnia and his patients are doing any such thing.
Good for them, but statements like this make me sceptical :-
"Of those patients, doctors were able to bring 16% back from the dead, ... "
They didn't do anything of the kind, the patients weren't actually dead.
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Of course we used to think of alive/dead as simple either/or, but specialists in areas like resuscitation now think of death as not so much an event, but more as a process. Clearly activity can persist in brains for a period beyond cardiac arrest, and now we are finding that some levels of consciousness can still persist at voltage levels too low to show up on traditional ECG. And of course finger nails and hair will continue to grow for some time after brain death. So we shoud not be asking - is the patient dead, but rather, how dead is this patient ?
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Of course we used to think of alive/dead as simple either/or, but specialists in areas like resuscitation now think of death as not so much an event, but more as a process. Clearly activity can persist in brains for a period beyond cardiac arrest, and now we are finding that some levels of consciousness can still persist at voltage levels too low to show up on traditional ECG. And of course finger nails and hair will continue to grow for some time after brain death. So we shoud not be asking - is the patient dead, but rather, how dead is this patient ?
Maybe so....but we should not over complicate it just because we want to explain away NDE's and dismiss the possibility of an after-life. There is a clear vested interest there.
There is something we can call 'death' and doctors worldwide do have a well accepted definition of it. And many NDE's happen after the accepted clinical definition of death.
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Maybe so....but we should not over complicate it just because we want to explain away NDE's and dismiss the possibility of an after-life. There is a clear vested interest there.
Who would have a vested interest in dismissing the possibility of an afterlife ?
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Of course we used to think of alive/dead as simple either/or, but specialists in areas like resuscitation now think of death as not so much an event, but more as a process. Clearly activity can persist in brains for a period beyond cardiac arrest, and now we are finding that some levels of consciousness can still persist at voltage levels too low to show up on traditional ECG. And of course finger nails and hair will continue to grow for some time after brain death. So we shoud not be asking - is the patient dead, but rather, how dead is this patient ?
Surely, by definition, dead means without life of any sort.
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So are you saying that adults who believe in fairies are like children believing in stories? Is that different to adults believing in God, Jesus or heaven?
I think in the past there was a clear distinction between belief in fairies and religion and your present confusion is due to ignorance exacerbated by a general social alienation in secular Britain.
IMHO.
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Surely, by definition, dead means without life of any sort.
... and a near death experience is not the same as an experience of the dead. As Torridon said it might be better to refine the dying process more and more.
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So are you saying that adults who believe in fairies are like children believing in stories? Is that different to adults believing in God, Jesus or heaven?
That's a fair point Rhiannon. I've never known a 'grown up' who believes in fairies so cannot compare. Believers would have to explain how and why they believe in God for a fair comparison. Many say they have a personal relationship with God or Jesus or both and it is a fairly unshakable belief. Not so with fairies etc, even kids wouldn't take much convincing that they are not real, merely a fantasy.
Regarding NDEs and people seeing or experiencing things they would not have known about, it is surprising what knowledge we store in our unconscious - people, impressions as well as events, long since forgotten but deep down in the memory store. Such things often come out in psychotherapy too.
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Surely, by definition, dead means without life of any sort.
LOL! Len....so you want to define 'death' in such a way as to eliminate the possibility of understanding anything about an after-life ....and then start thumping the table asking for evidence of an after-life. Nice!!
Let me tell you a mystical definition of death. Final death occurs when the Silver Cord connecting the soul to the body is detached. Till then death is not final and a person can come back into the body.
Now...that's the definition I like! Whether doctors can know anything about this is another matter. They have to be content with standard definitions, I suppose. :)
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Who would have a vested interest in dismissing the possibility of an afterlife ?
Lots of people. Atheists, materialists, antireligionists, scientists....and many others I expect.
No one wants their world view or their beliefs to be suddenly proven wrong. Memes!! They will do anything to survive.
Scientists in particular will have plenty to lose if an after-life is proved. It'll suddenly give life a meaning and direction....horror of horrors!! What will happen to all the random variations, emergent properties, coincidental cosmic occurrences and so on?!! Generations of carefully cultivated materialism will....poof... vanish.
People will once again have to believe in God or gods...and purpose...and morality....and sin ...and penance....and discipline....and sacrifice and duty etc.
What do you mean 'who' has a vested interest in dismissing an after-life?!
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Lots of people. Atheists, materialists, antireligionists, scientists....and many others I expect.
Scientists in particular will have plenty to lose if an after-life is proved. It'll suddenly give life a meaning and direction....horror of horrors!! What will happen to all the random variations, emergent properties, coincidental cosmic occurrences and so on?!! Generations of carefully cultivated materialism will....poof... vanish.
Except that any scientist who can come up with any evidence for anything of this kind (plus its appropriate methodology, of course) is in for not only papers in Nature but a guaranteed Nobel Prize, the money that goes with it and international fame.
People will once again have to believe in God or gods...and purpose...and morality....and sin ...and penance....and discipline....and sacrifice and duty etc.
No they won't. An afterlife and the existence of any gods are in fact discrete, separable items. They usually go hand in hand, it's true - Bertrand Russell called them "the irreducible minimum of theology" - but there's no inherent link which entails that one inescapably leads to the other. There have been atheists who have believed in an afterlife - John MacTaggart and C. J. Ducasse, for example.
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If an after-life is proved, life and its priorities will change dramatically..Shaker. What is the use of a Nobel Prize and any other human award? It'll all be seen for the temporal benefit that it is.
This world suddenly becomes just a temporary place... like a boarding school. Going back 'home' would be more important. Of course, ones duties and successes here would be important but only as a reflection of what's expected of us from the after-life.
Especially since some people experience distress and pain in the after-life....ones life style, attitudes and principles will become important. People will realize that life is being monitored and that there are repercussions. It'll not be .... 'just one life time and oblivion...so do as you please'.
When I say God or gods...I don't mean it in the standard mythological sense. What I mean is that there will be people/beings who are monitoring and guiding us all the time. That can be joyful to some people and frightening to some others.
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Further to the above post. If a secular after-life is proved...life and death will become so different in our perspective. All the money making, pleasure seeking, ego gratification will take a back seat. Comparisons will not be based on wealth, comfort and luxury. Celebrities will lose their status. Genuinely good, loving people will be valued.
Death will lose its sting. People will no longer regard death as a final separation.....and sorrow over it, though losing a person could still be painful.
Old age will not be the lonely, dreadful and distressing wait for disease and oblivion. It will be a happy packing up time.... to go home..hoping you have done well this lifetime. ....hoping to do better next time around.
Animal instincts will still play a role of course, and there will still be people who will not be able to control their basic urges regardless of the repercussions. But they will be a relative minority.
This will be the Golden Age (Satya Yuga) that people have been looking forward to.
Just some thoughts.
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I have to say it sounds delightful Sririam. If I really could embrace all that, I would be far more serene. Your posts make me want to investigate further.
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I have to say it sounds delightful Sririam. If I really could embrace all that, I would be far more serene. Your posts make me want to investigate further.
Have a look at The Tibetan Book of the Dead.
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Have a look at The Tibetan Book of the Dead.
If NDE's are taken seriously and investigated with the seriousness and focus that is required for such a fundamental and important phenomenon.....it will make all religious texts, all mythology, all ancient ideas of death and after-life completely redundant.
We will finally have real and contemporary experiences to back up our understanding of life and death..... and this will be true and meaningful to all humans across the world.
I have always found it shocking that research on this phenomenon is still on the fringes and still regarded as some thing wacko and New Wave.
It can change the entire pattern of life on earth.
PS: I don't recommend the 'Tibetan Book of the Dead' to anyone. I have read it and don't find it useful at all. I personally prefer Sam Parnia or Raymond Moody.
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LOL! Len....so you want to define 'death' in such a way as to eliminate the possibility of understanding anything about an after-life ....and then start thumping the table asking for evidence of an after-life. Nice!!
Let me tell you a mystical definition of death. Final death occurs when the Silver Cord connecting the soul to the body is detached. Till then death is not final and a person can come back into the body.
Now...that's the definition I like! Whether doctors can know anything about this is another matter. They have to be content with standard definitions, I suppose. :)
What nonsense! I think you mean the "invisible" silver cord connecting the "invisible" soul ... just like the invisible pink unicorn or the invisible flying teapot.
Dearie me, the dafter the story the more willling you are to believe it!
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I have to say it sounds delightful Sririam. If I really could embrace all that, I would be far more serene. Your posts make me want to investigate further.
Brownie.....I suggest you follow your instincts and investigate further. Maybe you could even walk into Southampton hospital and talk to Sam Parnia (not sure he is still there though....I think he is now in New York continuing the same work).
These are very serious matters and IMO much more important than black holes, Higgs Boson and other such matters on which so much money and energy is being spent.
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Never mind ...Len. Have a good night! :) (India time)
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Never mind ...Len. Have a good night! :)
I'm happy to say I hardly ever any trouble sleeping ... even in the middle of the day!
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Thanks Sririam but I was not thinking so much of near death experiences, rather Golden Age (Satya Yuga). I do realize they are all connected.
Southampton is a long way away from where I live :), so won't be dropping in there.
Ekim, thanks for your recommendation of the Tibetan Book of the Dead. I have read synopsis of it and quotations but not the entire text. Now I'll consider reading it all, in bits and pieces. Frankly, I am a bit scared!
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Lots of people. Atheists, materialists, antireligionists, scientists....and many others I expect.
No one wants their world view or their beliefs to be suddenly proven wrong. Memes!! They will do anything to survive.
Scientists in particular will have plenty to lose if an after-life is proved. It'll suddenly give life a meaning and direction....horror of horrors!! What will happen to all the random variations, emergent properties, coincidental cosmic occurrences and so on?!! Generations of carefully cultivated materialism will....poof... vanish.
People will once again have to believe in God or gods...and purpose...and morality....and sin ...and penance....and discipline....and sacrifice and duty etc.
What do you mean 'who' has a vested interest in dismissing an after-life?!
Ah, I see what you mean. I rather think the 'vested interests', and 'meme' jibes suit people who follow religious beliefs rather than those who do not. It is science, not religion, that maintains at its heart the notion that all knowledge is provisional, and many scientists dream of overturning the current paradigm a la Einstein and perhaps picking up a Nobel prize in the process. It is science, not religion, that concerns itself with how things actually are, and actually work, rather than how we would like to think they are, and has consequently built into itself a high bar of integrity through a culture of testing and attention to detail. Religions on the other hand are more concerned with ways of living and thinking that suit people in a particular cultural context; the epestemic truth of religious claims are not their main driver, more important is their ability to balance and comfort the mind on a day to day basis.
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If an afterlife of some sort does exist, we aren't likely to be the same people we were at death? Would a child remain a child, a person with disabilities still have them, an elderly person with dementia remain demented, etc? Would we have the same relationship with our relatives and friends?
I suppose it is just a possibility that people continually move from one full life experience to another, where they become totally different characters in each.
From my point of view I prefer the idea of ceasing to be completely when I die. If that is the case I won't miss anyone or anything.
If you wish for an afterlife, what would you want it to be like?
As I have obtained my 'Compostela' , I expect St Peter to wave me straight through to the Executive Lounge for complimentary drinks and nibbles while everyone else is sent to purgatory :)
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Scientists in particular will have plenty to lose if an after-life is proved. It'll suddenly give life a meaning and direction....horror of horrors!!
Are you seriously suggesting that those of us who don't believe in an after-life lead lives without meaning or direction? If so, then your vision is more blinkered that I thought.
People will once again have to believe in God or gods...and purpose...and morality....and sin ...and penance....and discipline....and sacrifice and duty etc.
Sriram, we don't have to believe in gods to lead lives of purpose, morality, discipline and sacrifice etc. Common sense and consideration for other people and the environment is all that is needed.
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Ekim, thanks for your recommendation of the Tibetan Book of the Dead. I have read synopsis of it and quotations but not the entire text. Now I'll consider reading it all, in bits and pieces. Frankly, I am a bit scared!
Just see it as another piece of second hand information indicating what others believe in. Unless you allow the belief to take you over, there is nothing to fear.... the same with stories of the New Age, Golden Age, Age of Aquarius, eschatology and parousia.
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Thanks Sririam but I was not thinking so much of near death experiences, rather Golden Age (Satya Yuga). I do realize they are all connected.
Southampton is a long way away from where I live :), so won't be dropping in there.
Ekim, thanks for your recommendation of the Tibetan Book of the Dead. I have read synopsis of it and quotations but not the entire text. Now I'll consider reading it all, in bits and pieces. Frankly, I am a bit scared!
http://www.holybooks.com/wp-content/uploads/The-Tibetan-Book-of-the-Dead.pdf
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Ah, I see what you mean. I rather think the 'vested interests', and 'meme' jibes suit people who follow religious beliefs rather than those who do not. It is science, not religion, that maintains at its heart the notion that all knowledge is provisional, and many scientists dream of overturning the current paradigm a la Einstein and perhaps picking up a Nobel prize in the process. It is science, not religion, that concerns itself with how things actually are, and actually work, rather than how we would like to think they are, and has consequently built into itself a high bar of integrity through a culture of testing and attention to detail. Religions on the other hand are more concerned with ways of living and thinking that suit people in a particular cultural context; the epestemic truth of religious claims are not their main driver, more important is their ability to balance and comfort the mind on a day to day basis.
Scientists are also human and have their share of beliefs and mindsets. They cannot be completely rational and objective about everything. They have their own memes.
Secondly, scientists may be rational and objective about individual theories in physics, biology etc. and may be open to change and modification....but they will not be entirely objective as regards spirituality vs materialism as a general philosophy. Their comfort zones and biases will kick in. All their beliefs, mindsets and pet theories about life will not allow them to be neutral about such issues as NDE's.
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Scientists are also human and have their share of beliefs and mindsets. They cannot be completely rational and objective about everything. They have their own memes.
Secondly, scientists may be rational and objective about individual theories in physics, biology etc. and may be open to change and modification....but they will not be entirely objective as regards spirituality vs materialism as a general philosophy. Their comfort zones will kick in. All their beliefs, mindsets and pet theories about life will not allow them to be neutral about such issues as NDE's.
Except that science is the very thing that, due to several of its built-in features, attempts to be as objective as possible by taking out the personal element - the chance of bias and preference - as far as possible. You talk as though scientists work alone in dusty garrets; that's a reversal of the truth.
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Except that science is the very thing that, due to several of its built-in features, attempts to be as objective as possible by taking out the personal element - the chance of bias and preference
Yes Brobat does that too(and other branches of disinfectant) and saves more lives per year probably than cosmology or evolutionary psychology......put together.
So the mystery is ....why Scientism rather than Brobatism?
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Except that science is the very thing that, due to several of its built-in features, attempts to be as objective as possible by taking out the personal element - the chance of bias and preference - as far as possible. You talk as though scientists work alone in dusty garrets; that's a reversal of the truth.
All that's very well as long as we remain within the realm of measurable and readily testable physical science.
Once we venture into grey areas such as NDE's where standard methods and practices cannot be applied...scientists are out of their depths and that's when their biases and mindsets start showing up.
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Yes Brobat does that too(and other branches of disinfectant) and saves more lives per year probably than cosmology or evolutionary psychology......put together.
So the mystery is ....why Scientism rather than Brobatism?
Scientism is just a whine, a term used by people when science says something they don't like, typically about their religious beliefs.
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Once we venture into grey areas such as NDE's where standard methods and practices cannot be applied
Why not?
...scientists are out of their depths and that's when their biases and mindsets start showing up
How would you know?
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All that's very well as long as we remain within the realm of measurable and readily testable physical science.
Once we venture into grey areas such as NDE's where standard methods and practices cannot be applied...scientists are out of their depths and that's when their biases and mindsets start showing up.
It's even worse than that since Chomsky says science only has to go out as far as say sociology to lose it's reliability.
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Why not?How would you know?
Oh...please...!!! ::)
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Oh...please...!!! ::)
Well, either you can answer the questions or you can't.
Obviously it's the latter
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Yes Brobat does that too(and other branches of disinfectant) and saves more lives per year probably than cosmology or evolutionary psychology......put together.
So the mystery is ....why Scientism rather than Brobatism?
No science, no disinfectant. But of course that's safe science; it does some of the job your god doesn't by preventing disease and infection and then you can still give God all the glory for its discovery.
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No science, no disinfectant.
No disinfectant, no science.
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Just see it as another piece of second hand information indicating what others believe in. Unless you allow the belief to take you over, there is nothing to fear.... the same with stories of the New Age, Golden Age, Age of Aquarius, eschatology and parousia.
Would you put the 'Tibetan Book of the Dead' on a par with the other stories you mentioned eki,? I really dislke that sort of writing, it seems to airy fairy to me. Like astrology. I might have liked it when I was a teenager. Many years ago a younger person gave me a book called, "The Celestine Prophecy'', I just couldn't get into it, nor did I see the point of it, yet it was very popular amongst youngsters for a while. I suppose all things have their season.
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Would you put the 'Tibetan Book of the Dead' on a par with the other stories you mentioned eki,? I really dislke that sort of writing, it seems to airy fairy to me. Like astrology. I might have liked it when I was a teenager. Many years ago a younger person gave me a book called, "The Celestine Prophecy'', I just couldn't get into it, nor did I see the point of it, yet it was very popular amongst youngsters for a while. I suppose all things have their season.
Brownie
It's been many, many years since I read through that book and I didn't return to it. It was at a time when I was also looking at theosophy and anthroposophy. I only mentioned it as I seem to remember that it had something common to this thread i.e. dying, reincarnation etc. As you say ' all things have their season' and your initial reaction is probably the best to follow, unless you are exploring Tibetan Buddhism.
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Thanks ekim.
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It's even worse than that since Chomsky says science only has to go out as far as say sociology to lose it's reliability.
That's actually quite true. There are areas called Exact Sciences where observations, analysis and predictions are expected to be very precise (Physics....and related areas like cosmology, astronomy)...Chemistry is less so..biology and medicine are even less so. As we venture into Psychology, sociology and other areas....precision is obviously lost. Attempts are being made to look at even Economics as a science. It becomes quite 'iffy'.
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Do you think that chemists and biologists would agree with your assessment of their disciplines as lacking the precision of, say, physics?
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That's actually quite true. There are areas called Exact Sciences where observations, analysis and predictions are expected to be very precise (Physics....and related areas like cosmology, astronomy)...Chemistry is less so..biology and medicine are even less so. As we venture into Psychology, sociology and other areas....precision is obviously lost. Attempts are being made to look at even Economics as a science. It becomes quite 'iffy'.
The problem with this is that science refers to 'knowledge' and pretty well all 'exact' or pure sciences are no more than that. Before science can actually be of any real use to humans, it has to be applied.
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I don't know how many people here realize that even Spirituality is a science! By spirituality I of course don't mean appeals to a God. I mean self development and spiritual growth.
Yoga and meditations are science in the sense that they are secular, can be taught, progress can be monitored and certain predicted results in terns of mental states and consciousness can be achieved.
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By the way...tonight (7.3.16) is a special night for Hindus. It is Maha Shivaratri (The great night of Shiva).
It is the night when Shiva is married to Shakti. Allegorically it is when Universal Consciousness unites with Nature. It is considered a very powerful night for Yoga and meditations.
Most Hindus will stay awake the whole night doing advanced Yoga and meditations....singing bhajans and other devotional practices.
For information.
Sriram
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By the way...tonight (7.3.16) is a special night for Hindus. It is Maha Shivaratri (The great night of Shiva).
It is the night when Shiva is married to Shakti. Allegorically it is when Universal Consciousness unites with Nature. It is considered a very powerful night for Yoga and meditations.
Most Hindus will stay awake the whole night doing advanced Yoga and meditations....singing bhajans and other devotional practices.
For information.
Sriram
Sounds interesting.
Presumably you get tomorrow off work?
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Sounds interesting.
Presumably you get tomorrow off work?
No....holiday was yesterday....to perform puja, fast, visit temples etc. Today one has to manage after a night of meditation. Or take leave. Many people wouldn't stay awake the whole night anyway. Only some hardy souls would do that. :)