Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: john on March 16, 2016, 01:16:32 PM
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I see that on Monday this week 3 horses participating in races died at Cheltenham. I wonder how many more will die there this week?
If 3 dogs a day died at Crufts would that be acceptable?
Is it morally right to put horses through this just so plebs can have fun gambling now electronic gambling machines have been invented?
I think horse racing is an unacceptable and unnecessary cruelty.
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So do I.
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I see that on Monday this week 3 horses participating in races died at Cheltenham. I wonder how many more will die there this week?
If 3 dogs a day died at Crufts would that be acceptable?
I saw a Facebook post the other day that claimed the best in breed German Shepherd was practically incapable of walking (a "desirable" trait of pure bred German shepherds is ridiculously short back legs). Whether that particular story is true or not, Crufts certainly does have ethical problems.
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No, I don't think it is.
Accidents happen.
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No, I don't think it is.
Accidents happen.
Is it an accident if you needlessly put someone/thing deliberately in harm's way, even if only potentially? No, it isn't.
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I saw a Facebook post the other day that claimed the best in breed German Shepherd was practically incapable of walking (a "desirable" trait of pure bred German shepherds is ridiculously short back legs). Whether that particular story is true or not, Crufts certainly does have ethical problems.
It is true.
Also that English bulldogs have been bred with such large heads that almost all (80% +) can now only be born by Caesarean section. And then there's life-long breathing problems associated with their flat faces.
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I have to confess that I'm pro-horse-racing, and that I'm probably biased since I've been involved with horses for most of my life until my mid 50's, having owned several for riding purposes as did other members of my family, so I've ridden quite a few and in my much younger days I've even ridden-out (e.g. exercised) racehorses.
Horses aren't pets though and owing one is a considerable financial and time commitment, and in my experience they are invariably well looked after. These days though, since they aren't essential for transport as they once were, and where horses are kept it is to be ridden and/or jumped, which for most of them comes naturally.
Those who say that horses 'enjoy it' are kidding themselves though: in my experience they just aren't that bright, but the reality is that horses will run and jump even if not encouraged to do so by people and over my equine years I've seen a number injure themselves and other horses (they can and do kick each other) whilst grazing in fields.
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I have to confess that I'm pro-horse-racing, and that I'm probably biased since I've been involved with horses for most of my life until my mid 50's, having owned several for riding purposes as did other members of my family, so I've ridden quite a few and in my much younger days I've even ridden-out (e.g. exercised) racehorses.
Horses aren't pets though and owing one is a considerable financial and time commitment, and in my experience they are invariably well looked after. These days though, since they aren't essential for transport as they once were, and where horses are kept it is to be ridden and/or jumped, which for most of them comes naturally.
Those who say that horses 'enjoy it' are kidding themselves though: in my experience they just aren't that bright, but the reality is that horses will run and jump even if not encouraged to do so by people and over my equine years I've seen a number injure themselves and other horses (they can and do kick each other) whilst grazing in fields.
Good post.
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Is it an accident if you needlessly put someone/thing deliberately in harm's way, even if only potentially? No, it isn't.
Horses love to run with other horses.
They don't deliberately put them in harms way.
As Gordon says they can injure themselves in their field.
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Horses love to run with other horses.
I suggest you read Gordon's #6.
They don't deliberately put them in harms way.
I suggest you read the OP. If 3 horses have died in races which they didn't actually have to run, that's being put in harm's way as I understand it. Horses don't die in races if they don't race.
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I saw a Facebook post the other day that claimed the best in breed German Shepherd was practically incapable of walking (a "desirable" trait of pure bred German shepherds is ridiculously short back legs). Whether that particular story is true or not, Crufts certainly does have ethical problems.
I have a pure bred German Shepherd, and it hasn't got short back legs ::)
It's not a desirable trait.
One of the problem areas with both golden retrievers and German shepherds are their hips.
If you buy one, it's best to make sure you know the hip score of the parents.
One of the biggest problems isn't Crufts, but puppy farms.
I've known a few people buy their pets from puppy farms, mainly because they feel sorry for it, so they buy it. Then you get huge bills for medical bills.
The chances are, that won't happen if you find a responsible breeder.
We've always gone to a reputable breeder and seen both parents.
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I suggest you read Gordon's #6.
I suggest you read the OP. If 3 horses have died in races which they didn't actually have to run, that's being put in harm's way as I understand it. Horses don't die in races if they don't race.
People die jogging.
No one has suggested it be banned.
You really don't like people interacting with animals, do you?
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I have to confess that I'm pro-horse-racing, and that I'm probably biased since I've been involved with horses for most of my life until my mid 50's, having owned several for riding purposes as did other members of my family, so I've ridden quite a few and in my much younger days I've even ridden-out (e.g. exercised) racehorses.
Horses aren't pets though and owing one is a considerable financial and time commitment, and in my experience they are invariably well looked after. These days though, since they aren't essential for transport as they once were, and where horses are kept it is to be ridden and/or jumped, which for most of them comes naturally.
Those who say that horses 'enjoy it' are kidding themselves though: in my experience they just aren't that bright, but the reality is that horses will run and jump even if not encouraged to do so by people and over my equine years I've seen a number injure themselves and other horses (they can and do kick each other) whilst grazing in fields.
Race horses were always far too highly strung for most people like me to manage.
I've known people who have bred them, and they are a bit different to your average pony :D
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People die jogging.
No one has suggested it be banned.
Probably because jogging is a matter of choice - humans can choose to jog if they want to, cognisant in advance of the potential risks. Rugby, skydiving, boxing, Formula 1 racing likewise.
People die on forced marches or are worked to death and they are banned because of the element of compulsion.
You really don't like people interacting with animals, do you?
Interacting is fine.
Treating non-human animals as objects and commodities for human use and abuse isn't.
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I have a pure bred German Shepherd, and it hasn't got short back legs ::)
It's not a desirable trait.
One of the problem areas with both golden retrievers and German shepherds are their hips.
If you buy one, it's best to make sure you know the hip score of the parents.
One of the biggest problems isn't Crufts, but puppy farms.
I've known a few people buy their pets from puppy farms, mainly because they feel sorry for it, so they buy it. Then you get huge bills for medical bills.
The chances are, that won't happen if you find a responsible breeder.
We've always gone to a reputable breeder and seen both parents.
Our German shepherds didn't have short legs!
However, some dogs have been bred to look ridiculous, imo, and it can't be good for them at all. I bet those ghastly yappy very small dogs wouldn't have occurred naturally as they wouldn't survive in the wild.
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Probably because jogging is a matter of choice - humans can choose to jog if they want to, cognisant of the potential risks. Rugby, skydiving, boxing, Formula 1 racing likewise.
Interacting is fine.
Treating non-human animals as obects and commodities for human use and abuse isn't.
That's what I mean.
All pets are kept in unnatural conditions, for human use.
Even your goldfish in a bowl.
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It's something I've thought about on and off for years. I'm pretty ignorant about it, never having been close up to horse racing, but it looks cruel to me. Whether it should be banned is a separate question. I don't know.
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That's what I mean.
All pets are kept in unnatural conditions, for human use.
Even your goldfish in a bowl.
I don't have a goldfish in a bowl.
Cats and dogs have been domesticated for so long that they've co-evolved with humans and happily share human habitation and lifestyle - we get their companionship and affection, they (if lucky) receive the same and all the perks that go with it.
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Since horse riding and racing are world-wide pursuits and could never be prevented, do you have what might be considered a workable compromise, Shaker?
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My dog is a multi relatives Long Haired Jack Russell type dog. With a bit of Spaniel in him. We saved his life by rescuing him from a dogs home where he would otherwise have been put down. He shows every sign of being grateful and loving us for it. I would not dream of entering him in a competition which put his life in danger, he's far too valuable.
I think it is a measurable medical fact that mongrel types are much healthier and long lived than inbred special breeds. My previous Jack Russell mongrel made it to 20 years old.
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Since horse riding and racing are world-wide pursuits and could never be prevented, do you have what might be considered a workable compromise, Shaker?
Nothing springs to mind. Too many people would lose too much money, and that's never allowed to stand in the way of anything.
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I think animals should have their uses either as food, clothing (leather/wool) or in the case of my gerbil as an organic paper shredder.
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I saw a Facebook post the other day that claimed the best in breed German Shepherd was practically incapable of walking (a "desirable" trait of pure bred German shepherds is ridiculously short back legs). Whether that particular story is true or not, Crufts certainly does have ethical problems.
I think what this is referring to is the sloped back that some shepherds have, rather than short legs.
Ours doesn't have a pronounced sloped back, but I think some of them are because of the stance they put the shepherds in when showing.
Some breeders overdo it.
http://www.examiner.com/article/sloping-vs-straight-back-german-shepherds
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If 3 horses have died in races which they didn't actually have to run, that's being put in harm's way as I understand it. Horses don't die in races if they don't race.
This is undoubtedly true, and in fact the same applies whenever anyone gets on horseback since they are unpredictable.
I recall a time when I was having a quiet Sunday afternoon hack across the moor at Mugdock when a young girl out for a walk with her parents, and who was well away from the riding track where I was, opened a parasol (it was a sunny day) and the horse I was riding, which was mine and he was normally laid-back, got spooked and bolted flat-out towards a fence and there was nothing I could do to stop him from jumping it, which he did and then he thankfully decided to stop.
Whether it is racing or just normal riding there is always a risk to horse and rider - these days I stick to motorcycles: much safer!
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This is undoubtedly true, and in fact the same applies whenever anyone gets on horseback since they are unpredictable.
I recall a time when I was having a quiet Sunday afternoon hack across the moor at Mugdock when a young girl out for a walk with her parents, and who well away from the riding track where I was, opened a parasol (it was a sunny day) and the horse I was riding, which was mine and he was normally laid-back, got spooked and bolted flat-out towards a fence and there was nothing I could do to stop him from jumping it, which he did and then he thankfully decided to stop.
Whether it is racing or just normal riding there is always a risk to horse and rider - these days
I stick to motorcycles: much safer!
Some horses/ponies get spooked by motorcycles.
:o
It's a bit unnerving when they start rearing and bucking and trying to bolt. ( the horse not the motorcycle ;D )
:o
I was on a steep learning curve, rodeo as well.
Pony trekking ;D
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The thing is, if we all stop doing things because it's a bit dangerous or uses animals, there won't be anything left.
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The thing is, if we all stop doing things because it's a bit dangerous or uses animals, there won't be anything left.
I'm not suggesting stopping doing anything dangerous - just limiting the dangerous stuff to participants who can say yes please or no thanks as they choose.
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The trouble with that is, what if the animal appears to be saying " yes please"
Often in a horse race, after the rider has fallen off, the horse carries on and has to be removed.
Have you not noticed them trying to gallop with the horses still racing?
Isn't that a way of saying ' yes please! ' ?
I know my dog takes off after pheasants or squirrels given half a chance.
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I saw a Facebook post the other day that claimed the best in breed German Shepherd was practically incapable of walking (a "desirable" trait of pure bred German shepherds is ridiculously short back legs). Whether that particular story is true or not, Crufts certainly does have ethical problems.
Not Crufts so much as the Kennel Club which decides the standards upon which the dogs are judged. They have come under increasing pressure to change the rules/standards for some dogs, German Shepherds, pugs, pekinese (and all other short nosed dogs) that I can think of at the moment, but it will take almost as many generations to breed out the offending traits as it took to breed them in!
Horse racing - on the flat not so bad, but over jumps is a different matter and the Grand national should have been stopped years ago!
And not just horse racing - show jumping, especialluy the Puissance (sic) - the High Wall - should also be looks at from a safety point of view.
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I think horse racing is an unacceptable and unnecessary cruelty.
john, I think you need to ask whether horses should be allowed to run around their fields or the expanses of the Camarge.
Like you, I don't like horse racing, but horses are - by their very nature - keen to run around and jump over things. Would stopping them doing so be more cruel?
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john, I think you need to ask whether horses should be allowed to run around their fields or the expanses of the Camarge.
Like you, I don't like horse racing, but horses are - by their very nature - keen to run around and jump over things. Would stopping them doing so be more cruel?
If horses are so keen to jump why are riders so often the ones to go over the jumps on their own in show jumping 'cos the horse says "fuck you I 'm not jumping that!" It is called, in show jumping a refusal - yet they are turned around and made to do it again!
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Not Crufts so much as the Kennel Club which decides the standards upon which the dogs are judged. They have come under increasing pressure to change the rules/standards for some dogs, German Shepherds, pugs, pekinese (and all other short nosed dogs) that I can think of at the moment, but it will take almost as many generations to breed out the offending traits as it took to breed them in!
Horse racing - on the flat not so bad, but over jumps is a different matter and the Grand national should have been stopped years ago!
And not just horse racing - show jumping, especialluy the Puissance (sic) - the High Wall - should also be looks at from a safety point of view.
Uhh!
German Shepherds are not short nosed.
http://mentalfloss.com/article/64533/10-noble-facts-about-german-shepherds
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Uhh!
German Shepherds are not short nosed.
The German Shepherd thing was only an example. There are many issues associated with pure breed dogs such as deformed backs, deformed heads. deformed skin and so on.
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The trouble with that is, what if the animal appears to be saying " yes please"
If you put a single horse on the Aintree racecourse without a rider, will it run round it as fast as it can jumping over the fences at the risk of its own life or will it mooch around munching grass?
Often in a horse race, after the rider has fallen off, the horse carries on and has to be removed.
So its in a situation in which it (a herd animal) perceives the herd as running like mad. I suspect it's a flight reaction.
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Uhh!
German Shepherds are not short nosed.
http://mentalfloss.com/article/64533/10-noble-facts-about-german-shepherds
Honest Rose - I thought better of you! The comment about short nosed referred to the pugs and pekinese!
Despite what has been said by some on here I am NOT THAT fucking stupid!
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Honest Rose - I thought better of you! The comment about short nosed referred to the pugs and pekinese!
Despite what has been said by some on here I am NOT THAT fucking stupid!
My apologies
I just read it incorrectly.
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If you put a single horse on the Aintree racecourse without a rider, will it run round it as fast as it can jumping over the fences at the risk of its own life or will it mooch around munching grass?
So its in a situation in which it (a herd animal) perceives the herd as running like mad. I suspect it's a flight reaction.
Yep. That and the fact it's been trained to jump as as part of that.
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A big problem in horse racing is the overbreeding of yearlings. Thoroughbreds aren't much use as leisure rides so most end up being destroyed.
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Another big problem is that I don't think it can be denied that the majority of people in the racing industry (and all equestrian sports) do genuinely love and care for the horses. Many moons ago I had a job writing book reviews of sports autobiographies and most of them were by people connected to racing. John Oaksey in particular stood out as someone who adored animals - he said that the greatest tragedy in life is the number of dogs and horses that one loses - but he wasn't alone in that respect by any means.
Of course this love of thoroughbreds from those connected to them- many of whom grew up around racing - coupled with the treacley sentiment around the sport - a bit like boxing in that respect - makes it ever harder to get those within it, and its supporters, to see that there is a cruelty to it.
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Another big problem is that I don't think it can be denied that the majority of people in the racing industry (and all equestrian sports) do genuinely love and care for the horses. Many moons ago I had a job writing book reviews of sports autobiographies and most of them were by people connected to racing. John Oaksey in particular stood out as someone who adored animals - he said that the greatest tragedy in life is the number of dogs and horses that one loses - but he wasn't alone in that respect by any means.
Of course this love of thoroughbreds from those connected to them- many of whom grew up around racing - coupled with the treacley sentiment around the sport - a bit like boxing in that respect - makes it ever harder to get those within it, and its supporters, to see that there is a cruelty to it.
Is this not analogous with the "sport" of fox hunting? The proponents of it have been brought up to view fox-hunting as totally natural and can see nothing wrong with it; they cannot understand the distaste with which those who do not participate, who see it from a different angle.
In some ways the same can be said of those who oppose boxing.
Not so?
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I've been around horses most of my life. And I was all about my horses growing up, rarely a day that I wasn't riding, rain or snow. You know what a horse likes and doesn't like. Anybody that has been around Thoroughbreds or Standardbred knows those horses just love to race. Jumping, I'm not a fan. I thought I would see if my Arab would do some small jumps, got her mad is what happened. And after I gave up trying to get her to jump, she dumped me off her back into one off our ponds when I was letting her get a drink. Horses will test you. My first horse was well behaved if an older person was riding her, but we had a rough beginning. My leg was quite badly ripped up after she went for the barbed wire fence and trotted along it with me shrieking and trying to get my leg up. Believe it or not, we became great friends. Some times I wouldn't bother with a bridle nor saddle, and would just use a rope tied to the halter. And when I had ridden as far as I wanted to go I would just close my eyes and slump forward on her neck and the horse would take me home.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rmig2vgJPQ
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This is Chestermere lake right next to Granddad's farm. He help build this lake back in the horse and buggy days. A couple of cowgirls taking their horses for a swim.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pcKWm0mel0