Religion and Ethics Forum

General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Étienne d'Angleterre on April 03, 2016, 06:39:21 PM

Title: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: Étienne d'Angleterre on April 03, 2016, 06:39:21 PM
This goes out to anyone who looks in on this forum but hasn't yet joined.

I have to say that I have no regrets on starting posting a few weeks ago.

So come on in the water is lovely, whatever your opinion or views might be.
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: Shaker on April 03, 2016, 06:46:02 PM
Hear hear!
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: Jack Knave on April 03, 2016, 07:00:49 PM
The few that have joined, or come back, recently though are non theists. I feel they may not be inclined to do so, and this board may change into a political and philosophical one.
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: Leonard James on April 03, 2016, 07:07:38 PM
The few that have joined, or come back, recently though are non theists. I feel they may not be inclined to do so, and this board may change into a political and philosophical one.

Possibly because most of the English-speaking world is becoming non-theist.
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: jeremyp on April 03, 2016, 07:12:20 PM
The few that have joined, or come back, recently though are non theists. I feel they may not be inclined to do so, and this board may change into a political and philosophical one.

I think that's because the theists here are always getting their arses handed to them.
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: jeremyp on April 03, 2016, 07:14:59 PM
I think that's because the theists here are always getting their arses handed to them.
By "theists" I mean Christians, we also have some pagans who don't seem to come in for the same roasting, probably because they accept their faith is faith.
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: Brownie on April 03, 2016, 07:25:42 PM
This goes out to anyone who looks in on this forum but hasn't yet joined.

I have to say that I have no regrets on starting posting a few weeks ago.

So come on in the water is lovely, whatever your opinion or views might be.

That is lovely (not that I am a 'long time poster' compared to others but I really like this forum.

By "theists" I mean Christians, we also have some pagans who don't seem to come in for the same roasting, probably because they accept their faith is faith.

I accept that my faith is ''faith'', in the sense that I cannot prove it, jeremy.
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: Jack Knave on April 03, 2016, 07:28:34 PM
I think that's because the theists here are always getting their arses handed to them.
Then what would be the point of this forum?
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: jeremyp on April 03, 2016, 07:29:31 PM
Then what would be the point of this forum?
Why does it need a point?
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: Jack Knave on April 03, 2016, 07:43:21 PM
Why does it need a point?
It was created for those wanting to discuss religion in all its forms. If that goes then it will just end up as a group talking jibber-jabber and non-sense to each other....though that may be what we've been doing anyway  ???. Also, I have noticed that some atheists need their daily rant at the theists. If they don't get this then they may withdraw into themselves and wither away....
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: Walt Zingmatilder on April 03, 2016, 07:53:57 PM
I think that's because the theists here are always getting their arses handed to them.
............or, unlike you Jeremy they have a life.
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: Walt Zingmatilder on April 03, 2016, 08:08:36 PM
If you're anti theist and want your ego massaged then this is the forum for you.
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: Jack Knave on April 03, 2016, 08:13:01 PM
If you're anti theist and want your arse soaped and your ego massaged then this is the forum for you.
And you are a real Pro at providing a first class service for this... ;D
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: Walt Zingmatilder on April 03, 2016, 08:13:44 PM
That is lovely (not that I am a 'long time poster' compared to others but I really like this forum.

I accept that my faith is ''faith'', in the sense that I cannot prove it, jeremy.
He can't prove his beliefs either.
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: Walt Zingmatilder on April 03, 2016, 08:15:54 PM
I think that's because the theists here are always getting their arses handed to them.
What a laugh.....Religionethics where antitheists are antitheists and theists are scared.....Ho Ho.
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: Gonnagle on April 03, 2016, 08:37:35 PM
Dear Jeremyp,

My arse as you so eloquently put it has never been in a sling, I may have been wrong, at times, and those very few times I have been wrong ( for a given wrongness ) I have always admitted it ( for a given admittedness ).

No, given the fact that we are outnumbered on here, I think we theists do very well in the arseslingingest way of things.

And to end, further, to add to the discourse, the ego of the onetruewayism of the atheist, I may be delusional, insane, indoctrinated but it all makes me feel very human. ;)

Further even, I echo our newest recruit, young Stephano, lurkers come on in the water is positively sparkling.

Gonnagle.
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: Étienne d'Angleterre on April 03, 2016, 08:37:40 PM
He can't prove his beliefs either.

Are you referring to me?
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: Walt Zingmatilder on April 03, 2016, 08:40:07 PM
Are you referring to me?
Is your name Jeremy, Stephen?
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: Étienne d'Angleterre on April 03, 2016, 08:42:41 PM
Is your name Jeremy, Stephen?
No, but it seemed a reasonable question.


Are you ever going to give  us your methodology?
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: SweetPea on April 03, 2016, 08:49:25 PM
.....
So come on in the water is lovely
.....

Lol! Stephen that should read..... Come in the waters are shark infested....

Beware, the R&E forum..... enter if you dare...

Spoken in a deep gravelly voice.... ;)
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: Walt Zingmatilder on April 03, 2016, 08:52:46 PM
No, but it seemed a reasonable question.


Are you ever going to give  us your methodology?
Unfortunately like much of science religious experience is instrumental.........with yourself as the instrument.

Apart from that God crops up in philosophy, moral philosophy and cosmogony. And of course Religion itself........seek and he shall find.
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: Étienne d'Angleterre on April 03, 2016, 08:53:11 PM
Lol! Stephen that should read..... Come in the waters are shark infested....

Beware, the R&E forum..... enter if you dare...

Spoken in a deep gravelly voice.... ;)

I know, the theists are a bit grumpy, but come in anyway :)
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: Étienne d'Angleterre on April 03, 2016, 08:55:03 PM
Unfortunately like much of science religious experience is instrumental.........with yourself as the instrument.

Apart from that God crops up in philosophy, moral philosophy and cosmogony. And of course Religion itself........seek and he shall find.

I am seeking. I am finding nothing other than assertion though.

Let's keep that to the other thread though.
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: Walt Zingmatilder on April 03, 2016, 08:57:56 PM
Possibly because most of the English-speaking world is becoming non-theist.
I'm sorry to break this to you Len, I'm afraid the sun has set on the British empire....
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: Leonard James on April 03, 2016, 09:00:38 PM
I'm sorry to break this to you Len, I'm afraid the sun has set on the British empire....

Another wrong righted.
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: Gonnagle on April 03, 2016, 09:04:09 PM
Dear Stephen,

Quote
now, the theists are a bit grumpy, but come in anyway

The theists!!!!! stick around old chap the atheists are not all balls of sunshine.

Gonnagle.
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: Walt Zingmatilder on April 03, 2016, 09:09:50 PM
I am seeking. I am finding nothing other than assertion though.

Let's keep that to the other thread though.
You are no further in converting me to your beliefs.
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: Leonard James on April 03, 2016, 09:11:05 PM
Dear Stephen,

The theists!!!!! stick around old chap the atheists are not all balls of sunshine.

Gonnagle.

No, we are just little lamps trying to dispel the Stygian gloom of theism.
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: Rhiannon on April 03, 2016, 09:12:42 PM
In all seriousness this is a great forum with some very interesting people and when push comes to shove we generally look out for each other. It's a privilege to be a part of it and not one that I take for granted.
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: Walt Zingmatilder on April 03, 2016, 09:15:46 PM
No, we are just little lamps trying to dispel the Stygian gloom of theism.
Yes L E D ...by the nose
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: Walt Zingmatilder on April 03, 2016, 09:17:59 PM
In all seriousness this is a great forum with some very interesting people and when push comes to shove we generally look out for each other.
..."..............sorry, Rhiannon.........not quite getting that.............over...........
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: Leonard James on April 03, 2016, 09:19:16 PM
In all seriousness this is a great forum with some very interesting people and when push comes to shove we generally look out for each other. It's a privilege to be a part of it and not one that I take for granted.

Now you've gone all sentimental on us, and I don't know how to handle that.  :(
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: Rhiannon on April 03, 2016, 09:23:11 PM
Give me a big soppy hug, Lennie.  :P

Besides which, if you think that's me being sentimental...
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: Walt Zingmatilder on April 03, 2016, 09:28:47 PM
Give me a big soppy hug, Lennie.  :P

Besides which, if you think that's me being sentimental...
Gives you a warm feeling....Religionethics....the forum for antitheists by antitheists and on behalf of antitheists.
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: Owlswing on April 03, 2016, 09:44:09 PM
Gives you a warm feeling....Religionethics....the forum for antitheists by antitheists and on behalf of antitheists.

If that is the case why are you still here? - Oh yes, of course, you are a troll and a WUM and this is just the environment for your kind of shit stirring by making all kinds of assertions and refusing to explain your reasoning behind those assertions, but making different assertions to create more requests for clarification et cetera ad nauseam!!
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: Walt Zingmatilder on April 03, 2016, 09:48:41 PM
If that is the case why are you still here? - Oh yes, of course, you are a troll and a WUM and this is just the environment for your kind of shit stirring by making all kinds of assertions and refusing to explain your reasoning behind those assertions, but making different assertions to create more requests for clarification et cetera ad nauseam!!
I have explained the grounds on which I make statements.

Something lacking from all antitheists and pagans on this board.

End of message.
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: Owlswing on April 03, 2016, 09:51:38 PM
I have explained the grounds on which I make statements.

Something lacking from all antitheists and pagans on this board.

End of message.

Oh! Divine guidance!

I would have thought that He could find a better, more literate, more intelligent, representative.
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: Rhiannon on April 03, 2016, 09:57:05 PM
Oh for goodness' sake.

In all seriousness this is a great forum with some very interesting people and when push comes to shove we generally look out for each other. It's a privilege to be a part of it and not one that I take for granted.

Except that Vlad bloke. He's a right theist.

There, better?
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: Brownie on April 03, 2016, 10:38:23 PM
Oh for goodness' sake.

In all seriousness this is a great forum with some very interesting people and when push comes to shove we generally look out for each other. It's a privilege to be a part of it and not one that I take for granted.]

Agree 100%!

Quote
Except that Vlad bloke. He's a right theist.
Quote

Don't know about that.  Is he OMW by another  name?
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: SweetPea on April 03, 2016, 11:10:55 PM
Brownie, Vlad is Jonique Annoo.

OMW is OH, MY WORLD! who resigned his membership, recently.
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: Leonard James on April 04, 2016, 06:30:53 AM
Give me a big soppy hug, Lennie.  :P

(((((Rhiannon)))))

Done!  :)

Quote
Besides which, if you think that's me being sentimental...

Oh gawd, not tears,,,I can't stand tears.  :o
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: Étienne d'Angleterre on April 04, 2016, 07:22:13 AM
You are no further in converting me to your beliefs.

I am not attempting to. I am simply asking you to provide a methodology that you have claimed you have. So far you the only one you have suggested. personal experience, can't tell the distinguish between mutually exclusive claims, as easily demonstrated on the other thread.
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: Sassy on April 04, 2016, 07:46:13 AM
I think that's because the theists here are always getting their arses handed to them.

Not once have you handed my a*se back to me.
Do you not think your attitude and those like it, are what stop people posting.
If you lived to be 900 God will still be here and so will believers.
Reality check is that you cannot disprove God or anything he says.
I think in truth, you always land on your a*se so would not be able to hand anyone else their a*se back to them.

What makes you write such self serving egotistical sentences?
Looks like desperation and wishful thinking on the part of an atheist.
Have you ever thought that you are fooling nobody but yourself?

Well I suppose the atheist write nothing which would challenge a true believer let alone bring support from other atheists...
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: Sassy on April 04, 2016, 07:51:32 AM
By "theists" I mean Christians, we also have some pagans who don't seem to come in for the same roasting, probably because they accept their faith is faith.

FAITH: The willingness to think and act on the basis of what we know about God (which may be very little) and to trust him that he will not let us down.

I believe that you have said above Jeremy shows the lack of moral fibre and ability to see when faith has a basis and when it has none.

Christianity and faith in Gods word/promises and Christ.

Christ being the Messiah promised and so the promise witnessed.
The word of God coming true for the person/s with faith.

Paganism has no faith because it requires none.
We all know including pagans that they are basically made up beliefs none of their baals have actually done anything.
It is true, it does not require faith because the faith would be dead in the facing of the truth that they all know their baals the worship of nature does not exist.

I suppose you need to check the facts about the beliefs before assigning the definition of faith.
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: Sassy on April 04, 2016, 07:56:03 AM
In all seriousness this is a great forum with some very interesting people and when push comes to shove we generally look out for each other. It's a privilege to be a part of it and not one that I take for granted.
You mean atheist and pagan look out for each other whilst you slag the Christians off.
What are you taking?
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: Sassy on April 04, 2016, 08:00:06 AM
If that is the case why are you still here? - Oh yes, of course, you are a troll and a WUM and this is just the environment for your kind of shit stirring by making all kinds of assertions and refusing to explain your reasoning behind those assertions, but making different assertions to create more requests for clarification et cetera ad nauseam!!


Assertions Alert!  Assertion Alert!  Assertion Alert!  Assertion Alert!  Assertion Alert!  Assertion Alert!   Assertion Alert!
Pagan Insult Alert!  Pagan Insult Alert!  Pagan Insult Alert!  Pagan Insult Alert!  Pagan Insult Alert!  Pagan Insult Alert!
[/size]

Don't you just love it when they prove you right?  ;D
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: Leonard James on April 04, 2016, 08:06:29 AM
Unfortunately for you, Sass, your right is everybody else's wrong ... and no matter how loud you shout you can't change that. :)
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: floo on April 04, 2016, 08:11:54 AM
Come and join us, come and join us

Don't mind Sass, her nonsense can be amusing sometimes. ;D
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: Rhiannon on April 04, 2016, 08:17:13 AM
You mean atheist and pagan look out for each other whilst you slag the Christians off.
What are you taking?

Oh the irony.
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: Walt Zingmatilder on April 04, 2016, 09:27:20 AM
By "theists" I mean Christians, we also have some pagans who don't seem to come in for the same roasting, probably because they accept their faith is faith.
Yeh, Jeremy but we all know that if there were an exodus of Christians like previous exodi atheists would begin to parasitise the pagans.
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: Rhiannon on April 04, 2016, 09:40:06 AM
You really need to get a grip.
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: Walt Zingmatilder on April 04, 2016, 09:45:09 AM
You really need to get a grip.
You're fooling yourself.
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: Rhiannon on April 04, 2016, 09:47:26 AM
If we go around asserting our subjective pagan beliefs as universally true for everyone without a shred of evidence to back that up then we'll deserve getting it with both barrels.
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: Walt Zingmatilder on April 04, 2016, 10:08:25 AM
If we go around asserting our subjective pagan beliefs as universally true for everyone without a shred of evidence to back that up then we'll deserve getting it with both barrels.
I think you'll find the BHA think there beliefs are true for all mankind.....that kind of makes you guilty of humbuggery of the big stripey variety.

I think you'll find the New atheists think there views are true for all mankind.
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: Leonard James on April 04, 2016, 10:14:31 AM
I think you'll find the BHA think there beliefs are true for all mankind.....that kind of makes you guilty of humbuggery of the big stripey variety.

I think you'll find the New atheists think there views are true for all mankind.

You think an awful lot of total rubbish. It seems to be your stock in trade.
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: Shaker on April 04, 2016, 10:15:21 AM
 ;D
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: Walt Zingmatilder on April 04, 2016, 10:37:53 AM
You think an awful lot of total rubbish. It seems to be your stock in trade.
Says the arch bollocktalker himself.

Me parliamo mucho testiculo aye caramba mi sistabelinda she pissed out the window and fucked up my granny's sombrero................Ole (L James)
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: Gonnagle on April 04, 2016, 10:48:22 AM
Dear Vlad,

Quote
Me parliamo mucho testiculo aye caramba mi sistabelinda she pissed out the window and fucked up my granny's sombrero................Ole (L James)

It's good but it's not Carling ;)

Gonnagle.
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: Leonard James on April 04, 2016, 11:33:26 AM
Says the arch bollocktalker himself.

Me parliamo mucho testiculo aye caramba mi sistabelinda she pissed out the window and fucked up my granny's sombrero................Ole (L James)

 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Very good, Junky! You are infinitely better at nonsense stuff than you are at speaking English.
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: ProfessorDavey on April 04, 2016, 12:04:16 PM
I think you'll find the BHA think there beliefs are true for all mankind.....that kind of makes you guilty of humbuggery of the big stripey variety.
No they don't. The BHA provides their own opinion on an ethical approach within a society, which people can chose to follow or not to. Clearly they hope that their ethical philosophy is appealing enough for lots of people to chose to agree with them. But the whole approach is entirely subjective - nothing from the BHA suggests they think their approach is objectively 'true'.
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: Walt Zingmatilder on April 04, 2016, 12:05:19 PM
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Very good, Junky! You are infinitely better at nonsense stuff than you are at speaking English.
so I cant' do;.....Punctiation.
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: Rhiannon on April 04, 2016, 12:36:44 PM
No they don't. The BHA provides their own opinion on an ethical approach within a society, which people can chose to follow or not to. Clearly they hope that their ethical philosophy is appealing enough for lots of people to chose to agree with them. But the whole approach is entirely subjective - nothing from the BHA suggests they think their approach is objectively 'true'.

We used to have a poster that I'd debate this with a lot - they said that society should adopt secular humanism as its model because it worked, I said I hadn't seen any evidence that it would and quite a bit to the contrary. The example given was that letting people out at junctions means other people do the same; but I let people out at junctions and still get cut up by dipsticks in BMWs. The only way to make secular humanism work for everyone would be to take away all other options.
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: Owlswing on April 04, 2016, 04:04:51 PM
I think you'll find the BHA think there beliefs are true for all mankind.....that kind of makes you guilty of humbuggery of the big stripey variety.

I think you'll find the New atheists think there views are true for all mankind.

Idiot! Neither the BHA nor the New atheists are Pagan!
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: Walt Zingmatilder on April 04, 2016, 04:08:45 PM
Idiot! Neither the BHA nor the New atheists are Pagan!
No you guys are antichristian because we believe that God is true for everyone.

You love antitheists though who believe that Godfree is true for everyone.

I think what I am saying is that you guys are hypocrites.......in that respect.
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: Owlswing on April 04, 2016, 04:13:20 PM
No you guys are antichristian because we believe that God is true for everyone.

You love antitheists though who believe that Godfree is true for everyone.

I think what I am saying is that you guys are hypocrites.......in that respect.

You really are stupid!

I have dieties that I believe in as fervently as you believe in yours - how then can I be antitheist? How can I believe in Godfree?
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: Walt Zingmatilder on April 04, 2016, 04:18:12 PM
You really are stupid!

I have dieties that I believe in as fervently as you believe in yours - how then can I be antitheist? How can I believe in Godfree?
Noooooooo

You knock Christians because they believe that God is true for everyone but love antitheists even though they believe Godfree is true for everyone. Can't you see your dissonance in tha?
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: floo on April 04, 2016, 04:31:04 PM
Noooooooo

You knock Christians because they believe that God is true for everyone but love antitheists even though they believe Godfree is true for everyone. Can't you see your dissonance in tha?

Your posts don't give any indication of 'love' towards antitheists. ::)
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: Hope on April 04, 2016, 07:21:06 PM
I think that's because the theists here are always getting their arses handed to them.
I hadn't noticed any theists having their arses handed to them, let alone kicked, since I joined in 2011, jeremy.  What I have noticed, though, is non-theists thinking they have kicked ass, because of their inability or refusal to accept that life exists beyond the merely natural.
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: ippy on April 04, 2016, 07:22:47 PM
I think that's because the theists here are always getting their arses handed to them.

Thanks J P I've just read this one of yours and I'm sitting here chuckling, really good one, like it.

ippy 
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: Stranger on April 04, 2016, 07:29:46 PM
I hadn't noticed any theists having their arses handed to them, let alone kicked, since I joined in 2011, jeremy.  What I have noticed, though, is non-theists thinking they have kicked ass, because of their inability or refusal to accept that life exists beyond the merely natural.

Have you come up with a methodology (any objective methodology, not necessarily 'naturalistic') to determine the truth of your particular god as opposed to all the others or none?

We keep asking, you keep evading.

Until you (or some other theist) does, it is quite clear whose arses are being kicked...
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: Shaker on April 04, 2016, 07:36:43 PM
I hadn't noticed any theists having their arses handed to them, let alone kicked, since I joined in 2011, jeremy.  What I have noticed, though, is non-theists thinking they have kicked ass, because of their inability or refusal to accept that life exists beyond the merely natural.
That life extends beyond the merely natural is sheer bald assertion on your part for which, despite multiple and repeated requests over a lengthy period of time, you have yet to provide a single scrap, iota, jot or tittle of evidence or - especially - any methodology for evaluating such claims.

You know it; I know it; we all know it. You may be a slave to the negative proof fallacy and take anything to be true until and unless there's explicit evidence against it (and are constitutionally incapable of posting without said fallacious mindset); the rest of us are not.

As SKoS so succinctly put it, we keep asking, you keep evading. And will continue to do so.
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: Walt Zingmatilder on April 04, 2016, 08:46:51 PM
Your posts don't give any indication of 'love' towards antitheists. ::)
I luvs ya Godfree.
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: Walt Zingmatilder on April 04, 2016, 08:51:53 PM
That life extends beyond the merely natural is sheer bald assertion on your part for which, despite multiple and repeated requests over a lengthy period of time, you have yet to provide a single scrap, iota, jot or tittle of evidence or - especially - any methodology for evaluating such claims.

You know it; I know it; we all know it. You may be a slave to the negative proof fallacy and take anything to be true until and unless there's explicit evidence against it (and are constitutionally incapable of posting without said fallacious mindset); the rest of us are not.

As SKoS so succinctly put it, we keep asking, you keep evading. And will continue to do so.
Great

Godfree says:
I have this methodology which doesn't say anything about my beliefs one way or another...........so my beliefs are correct.

 You don't have a methodology so we can't say anything for or against your beliefs.........so you are wrong.............Half a cheer for Godfree.
Hip hip........hooey.
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: Hope on April 04, 2016, 10:38:07 PM
That life extends beyond the merely natural is sheer bald assertion on your part for which, despite multiple and repeated requests over a lengthy period of time, you have yet to provide a single scrap, iota, jot or tittle of evidence or - especially - any methodology for evaluating such claims.

As SKoS so succinctly put it, we keep asking, you keep evading. And will continue to do so.
In fact, I gave an example only a week or so ago, and about the only reasoned reponse was along the lines of 'I know when I'm in love, but I can't prove it to you'.  Barely a day goes past for any of us when something occurs that we either take for granted - our love for a parent/spouse/partner/child/sibling - or assume its validitry without ever having gone into deep evidential searching to check its validity.  OK, you can say that we often do this because others have told us ot he validity - but I'm not convinced of the scientific validity of this.
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: Shaker on April 04, 2016, 10:40:53 PM
In fact, I gave an example only a week or so ago, and about the only reasoned reponse was along the lines of 'I know when I'm in love, but I can't prove it to you'.  Barely a day goes past for any of us when something occurs that we either take for granted - our love for a parent/spouse/partner/child/sibling - or assume its validitry without ever having gone into deep evidential searching to check its validity.  OK, you can say that we often do this because others have told us ot he validity - but I'm not convinced of the scientific validity of this.
But none of that was or is in any way beyond a natural world of matter-energy in the way that you keep touting. That, as I said, is simply flat assertion on your part, summarily dealt with by Hitchens's First Law.
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: Hope on April 04, 2016, 10:41:29 PM
Have you come up with a methodology (any objective methodology, not necessarily 'naturalistic') to determine the truth of your particular god as opposed to all the others or none?

We keep asking, you keep evading.

Until you (or some other theist) does, it is quite clear whose arses are being kicked...
I and others have come up wth plenty of methodologies - only to have them dismissed because they don't satisfy the physical, naturalistic requirements of many here.  One example, of course, is of heling, which is shot down and explained away by reference to some other sort of 'magic' that in itself has no scientific validity.
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: Hope on April 04, 2016, 10:42:31 PM
But none of that was or is in any way beyond a natural world of matter-energy in the way that you keep touting.
You're entitled to your opinion, and I'm entitled to disagree with you. 
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: Shaker on April 04, 2016, 10:48:39 PM
You're entitled to your opinion, and I'm entitled to disagree with you.
But you have no basis for your opinion. We know this because you've been asked umpteen times by umpteen different posters over many months and although you claim that you've shown a methodology elsewhere (and claim that it "flummoxed" people ::) ), you won't do it here or provide a link to the alleged other place.
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: Shaker on April 04, 2016, 10:54:49 PM
I and others have come up wth plenty of methodologies
Where? Not here that's for sure.

Your claims of having done so elsewhere count for nothing if you're unable to point us in the right direction with a URL or two.

Without that, the claim to have provided such a methodology is yet another example of one of those things that starts with an 'ass-' ... and pretty well ends there, come to that.

Quote
only to have them dismissed because they don't satisfy the physical, naturalistic requirements of many here.
As you've been told many times, this so-called methodology doesn't have to be naturalistic, it just has to be objective and capable of testing claims so that their truth or falsity can be ascertained and not, as is your wont, merely asserted.

Quote
One example, of course, is of heling, which is shot down and explained away by reference to some other sort of 'magic' that in itself has no scientific validity.
I don't know whether this is a brazen lie or sheer ignorance. I posted a link to a BBC article on spontaneous healing a couple of months ago; I posted the link for a second time more recently when the subject cropped up again, so there's no excuse for not having seen it.

The word 'magic' at no point appears in the article. Quite a bit is already known about spontaneous healing, so much so that there's plenty to go on in terms of future research.
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: Sassy on April 05, 2016, 07:05:30 AM
Unfortunately for you, Sass, your right is everybody else's wrong ... and no matter how loud you shout you can't change that. :)

So let's test that...

I believe that it is right to teach others that being a paedophile is bad thing.
So that is wrong to everyone else, is it?
I believe that it is right to treat everyone the same regardless of creed, religion, colour or sexuality... so that is everyone else's wrong?

If I shout then it doesn't have to be loud or anything else for that matter to be right.
But when you speak the simpliest of test shows you to be completely wrong.

So why make statements that come back to bite your behind?
We both know why you left God and it wasn't about losing your faith. Losing your faith was about appeasing your own conscience. A little like the Ostrich sticking it's head in the sand.

Smell the coffee...
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: Sassy on April 05, 2016, 07:12:53 AM
If we go around asserting our subjective pagan beliefs as universally true for everyone without a shred of evidence to back that up then we'll deserve getting it with both barrels.

That is the problem.. whether universal or not - pagan beliefs hold NO TRUTH. There is no evidence required to back anything up because the beliefs have no merit, purpose or value to mankind.
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: Sassy on April 05, 2016, 07:18:12 AM
Dear Vlad,

It's good but it's not Carling ;)

Gonnagle.

It would take more than Heineken to refresh the faith that only God can reach within you.
You have fallen away Gonnagle you have left the path. Seek the LORD whilst he may still be found. :(
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: Étienne d'Angleterre on April 05, 2016, 07:56:37 AM
I and others have come up wth plenty of methodologies - only to have them dismissed because they don't satisfy the physical, naturalistic requirements of many here.  One example, of course, is of heling, which is shot down and explained away by reference to some other sort of 'magic' that in itself has no scientific validity.

I don't know how you can have the bare faced cheek to say this.

I have never ever ever insisted that a methodology should be naturalistic. just that we should be able to tell what is objectively true from what isn't.

OK then you want to use healing as an example.

Give us a specific example with an accompanying method which shows the example to have non naturalistic origins?
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: floo on April 05, 2016, 08:16:45 AM
I and others have come up wth plenty of methodologies - only to have them dismissed because they don't satisfy the physical, naturalistic requirements of many here.  One example, of course, is of heling, which is shot down and explained away by reference to some other sort of 'magic' that in itself has no scientific validity.

Your way of seeing it always begs the question why does the sky fairy only 'heal' when in the mood?
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: Stranger on April 05, 2016, 08:48:00 AM
I and others have come up wth plenty of methodologies...

Where?

...only to have them dismissed because they don't satisfy the physical, naturalistic requirements of many here.

I have seen no such dismissals and plenty of people telling you that any methodology that produces objective results will do.

One example, of course, is of [healing], which is shot down and explained away by reference to some other sort of 'magic' that in itself has no scientific validity.

If there was a definite pattern of 'miraculous' healing if and only if there was prayer to your god then that would indeed be a strong piece of evidence.

But there isn't.
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: Gonnagle on April 05, 2016, 09:08:10 AM
Dear Stephano,

Are we still appealing to lurkers ::) maybe lurkers is the wrong word, what about silent viewers, hey!! Silent viewers come and voice your opinions, all are welcome, we even welcome Tories :o

Gonnagle.
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: Étienne d'Angleterre on April 05, 2016, 10:30:43 AM
Dear Stephano,

Are we still appealing to lurkers ::) maybe lurkers is the wrong word, what about silent viewers, hey!! Silent viewers come and voice your opinions, all are welcome, we even welcome Tories :o

Gonnagle.

Hi,

Yes your wording does seem a bit more welcoming.

Not sure about the Tories thought. You can go too far!:)
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: jeremyp on April 05, 2016, 12:21:01 PM
............or, unlike you Jeremy they have a life.
And by "you" of course you mean "us".
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: The Accountant, OBE, KC on April 05, 2016, 01:25:44 PM
Then what would be the point of this forum?
I thought the point of the forum was for different people from different walks of life to discuss philosophical ideas, concepts, beliefs or issues (involving a deity or not) that were meaningful to them - or as some people like to put it "true for them" and to gain an understanding of other perspectives based on those discussions.

If it is meaningful to atheists to use the forum to try to convince theists to adopt an atheist perspective or vice versa - great - that's the point - an exchange of ideas. It's kind of irrelevant whether anyone is actually persuaded by anyone else's argument or not so long as conversations continue, when time permits. The mods are there to cool things down when some people get a bit over-excited.
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: Walt Zingmatilder on April 05, 2016, 01:33:02 PM
And by "you" of course you mean "us".
You are like my antitheist twin.
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: Jack Knave on April 05, 2016, 08:40:04 PM
I thought the point of the forum was for different people from different walks of life to discuss philosophical ideas, concepts, beliefs or issues (involving a deity or not) that were meaningful to them - or as some people like to put it "true for them" and to gain an understanding of other perspectives based on those discussions.

If it is meaningful to atheists to use the forum to try to convince theists to adopt an atheist perspective or vice versa - great - that's the point - an exchange of ideas. It's kind of irrelevant whether anyone is actually persuaded by anyone else's argument or not so long as conversations continue, when time permits. The mods are there to cool things down when some people get a bit over-excited.
What you may have missed from another post of mine was that what I was saying was is that it seems as if many of the theists are leaving this forum and those few who are joining are atheists. If it ends up as being pretty much all atheists then what is the point of it, with regards to its original purpose?

I have to admit that since the political section was added it has improved my enjoyment of this forum. The science bit has also added a to this a little.
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: Owlswing on April 05, 2016, 08:53:55 PM
Hi,

Yes your wording does seem a bit more welcoming.

Not sure about the Tories thought. You can go too far!:)

. . . or any politician of any persuasion!
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: ~TW~ on April 05, 2016, 11:28:02 PM
This goes out to anyone who looks in on this forum but hasn't yet joined.

I have to say that I have no regrets on starting posting a few weeks ago.

So come on in the water is lovely, whatever your opinion or views might be.

Hello Stephen this forum is dead I have looked in and may look back  in 3 months from now 99.9% seem to be Hell bound plonkers united.

   ~TW~
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: Brownie on April 06, 2016, 12:57:20 AM
Your way of seeing it always begs the question why does the sky fairy only 'heal' when in the mood?

Remember the Biblical story of the person lowered through the roof to see Jesus because it was otherwise difficult to gain entry.  Jesus looked not only at the sick person but at the faith of his friends.[/i

I don't have a problem with the fact that not everyone who asks is cured ('healing' doesn't always mean curing), it's a fact that we will be ill and eventually we will die, regardless of faith.  However I do not think it depends on the mood of God.
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: Sebastian Toe on April 06, 2016, 01:25:34 AM
Hello Stephen this forum is dead I have looked in and may look back  in 3 months from now 99.9% seem to be Hell bound plonkers united.

   ~TW~
Arse.
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: Owlswing on April 06, 2016, 06:06:53 AM

Arse.


You really rate ~TW~ that highly?
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: Sassy on April 06, 2016, 06:19:29 AM
Why should atheists be concerned with healing as they are not concerned about dying.

I get the feeling they pick arguments for arguments sake. They don't want to learn and do not want to be healed and so may be they have the answer to why some are healed and some are not.

May be some Christians want more than their healing.
When a man brought to Jesus for healing it was clear to Jesus that his man wanted something more than physical healing.
Quote

2 And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.


The reaction and the result...

Quote
3 And, behold, certain of the scribes said within themselves, This man blasphemeth.

4 And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts?

5 For whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk?

6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.

7 And he arose, and departed to his house.

In life those who come to know Christ and believe God sent him are saved.
The man never told him it was his sins which he wanted forgiven. The mind of the man was more concerned with his sin that his sickness. From Christ he received both.

We all will die one day. But I believe it is Gods will for people to be healthy whilst alive.
Who knows why some die and some healed. But they have all been able to receive the healing and walk the way.

Whilst here do the atheists fear sickness or death? It would appear not.
Paul wanted to cast off this mortal coil to be with the Lord Jesus but decided he was needed here more at the time.

Christians have a hope that lives by sickness and disease that leads to life after death.
Knowing when they cross they will have no knowledge of the time spent asleep for they will pass to Christ and the resurrection day. As they close their eyes to sleep here, they will awaken to the trumpet sound and the return of Christ. They will receive that which they hope for in Jesus Christ.

The believers have something more powerful than death. The resurrection promise through the blood of Christ.
Whilst in the body here they are away from the LORD. But when they leave their body here they are with the LORD.

Christ told them... "Fear not them which kill the body...rather fear God who after death has the power to throw both body and soul into hell."

What is it with all the arguments about healing with the atheists?

Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: Shaker on April 06, 2016, 06:49:11 AM
What is it with all the arguments about healing with the atheists?
It's to highlight the wretchedly flawed/horribly fallacious/just generally terrible arguments that believers in magical healing use.
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: Brownie on April 06, 2016, 10:14:57 AM
I thought the point of the forum was for different people from different walks of life to discuss philosophical ideas, concepts, beliefs or issues (involving a deity or not) that were meaningful to them - or as some people like to put it "true for them" and to gain an understanding of other perspectives based on those discussions.

If it is meaningful to atheists to use the forum to try to convince theists to adopt an atheist perspective or vice versa - great - that's the point - an exchange of ideas. It's kind of irrelevant whether anyone is actually persuaded by anyone else's argument or not so long as conversations continue, when time permits. The mods are there to cool things down when some people get a bit over-excited.

I agree that that is the point of this forum and it is that precisely which sets the forum apart from others that many of us here have posted on in the past.
I don't come on here to preach or try to convert and I wouldn't like anyone to do that to me but it is interesting to hear what others believe.
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: john on April 06, 2016, 10:37:44 AM
I thought the point of the forum was for different people from different walks of life to discuss philosophical ideas, concepts, beliefs or issues (involving a deity or not) that were meaningful to them - or as some people like to put it "true for them" and to gain an understanding of other perspectives based on those discussions.

If it is meaningful to atheists to use the forum to try to convince theists to adopt an atheist perspective or vice versa - great - that's the point - an exchange of ideas. It's kind of irrelevant whether anyone is actually persuaded by anyone else's argument or not so long as conversations continue, when time permits. The mods are there to cool things down when some people get a bit over-excited.

Well said Gabriella...

Although I don't particularly want to convert anyone, Just try to understand their thinking.

There are some very interesting people here, yourself included, I enjoy but am frequently amazed at what they have to say. Sometimes I throw a prompt in too.

Keep up the discussions peeps.
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: horsethorn on April 06, 2016, 10:39:42 AM
That is the problem.. whether universal or not - pagan beliefs hold NO TRUTH. There is no evidence required to back anything up because the beliefs have no merit, purpose or value to mankind.

Pagan beliefs are exactly as true as your beliefs. They have the same merit, purpose, and value - and also precisely the same evidence.

ht
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: floo on April 06, 2016, 10:52:54 AM
Pagan beliefs are exactly as true as your beliefs. They have the same merit, purpose, and value - and also precisely the same evidence.

ht

I can see Sass taking that on board, NOT!
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: horsethorn on April 06, 2016, 11:47:59 AM
I can see Sass taking that on board, NOT!

The problem for her is that I can demonstrate that I'm correct...

ht
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: floo on April 06, 2016, 11:54:26 AM
The problem for her is that I can demonstrate that I'm correct...

ht

My dear, you can demonstrate it until you are blue in the face, but it will still fall on blind eyes and deaf ears.
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: horsethorn on April 06, 2016, 11:58:31 AM
My dear, you can demonstrate it until you are blue in the face, but it will still fall on blind eyes and deaf ears.

You're not wrong :(

ht
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: Gonnagle on April 06, 2016, 12:02:41 PM
<doh>

<gift>

<devil>

(gift)

{{{}}} <hug>
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: horsethorn on April 06, 2016, 12:03:11 PM
<doh>

<gift>

<devil>

(gift)

{{{}}} <hug>

Pardon?

ht
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: floo on April 06, 2016, 12:14:29 PM
Pardon?

ht

The poor darling couldn't find any water to put with his wee DRAM ;D
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: Gonnagle on April 06, 2016, 12:32:18 PM
Dear Floo and Horsethorn,

Especially you Floo ;) I was bored, if you look below Horsethorns little avatar you will see a small picture of the world, click on it. :o

Gonnagle.
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: floo on April 06, 2016, 12:35:32 PM
Dear Floo and Horsethorn,

Especially you Floo ;) I was bored, if you look below Horsethorns little avatar you will see a small picture of the world, click on it. :o

Gonnagle.

You must have been bored you poor old thing. ;D
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: Sassy on April 08, 2016, 10:34:16 AM
It's to highlight the wretchedly flawed/horribly fallacious/just generally terrible arguments that believers in magical healing use.

You Wish! As time goes by and more healed your argument weakens...wait it never had any strength to weaken because it was always merely an opinion. Jesus Christ, is what stands between your argument having any weight, merit or truth.
You would have to disprove he was the Son of God and did what he did. Not luck of that any time soon. Which leaves you with less hope than Bob Hope and that is in fact No HOPE...
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: Shaker on April 08, 2016, 10:36:50 AM
You Wish! As time goes by and more healed
No evidence of this.
Quote
You would have to disprove he was the Son of God and did what he did.
Negative proof fallacy. You assert it, you prove it, otherwise Hitchens's First Law applies - what is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: Sassy on April 08, 2016, 10:38:56 AM
Pagan beliefs are exactly as true as your beliefs. They have the same merit, purpose, and value - and also precisely the same evidence.

ht

You are in a good mood!

But, I believe you know that they do not.
Jesus Christ, he is far more evidence than any belief you hold in paganism.
You see Jesus Christ teaches us to worship the creator not the created.

Paganism by it's very roots is the worship of the male elements of nature.
It is totally and absolutely different to the worship of God as creator.

The evidence does NOT SUPPORT your opinion and shows not factual evidence for what you try to claim.

Simply saying it won't make it so. That is similar to you believing in paganism. It won't make it real because you say it.

Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: Shaker on April 08, 2016, 10:41:03 AM
Simply saying it won't make it so. That is similar to you believing in paganism. It won't make it real because you say it.
A point entirely lost on you, ironically (and hypocritically).
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: Sebastian Toe on April 08, 2016, 10:47:20 AM


Simply saying it won't make it so.

Coincidently, neither does putting stuff in
 really big fonts
 ::)

Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: ProfessorDavey on April 08, 2016, 10:48:51 AM
You Wish! As time goes by and more healed your argument weakens...wait it never had any strength to weaken because it was always merely an opinion. Jesus Christ, is what stands between your argument having any weight, merit or truth.
You would have to disprove he was the Son of God and did what he did. Not luck of that any time soon. Which leaves you with less hope than Bob Hope and that is in fact No HOPE...
As I have mentioned previously what we might describe as 'spontaneous healing' is actually much more common than we might think - actually it happens all the time, for most trauma or illness. So the physiology of the body is well set up to achieve this. Sure there are cases where the body's physiology is overwhelmed by pathology or trauma to an extent where it cannot successfully heal itself and medical intervention is necessary - but in every case there will be a physiological response attempted and many medical treatments are designed to work alongside or augment the body's natural response.

Given that most pathologies and most physiologies are a spectrum it isn't surprising that you will get occasional circumstances where the pathology is at the low end of the spectrum and the physiological response at the high end of the spectrum and therefore spontaneous healing or remission will occur for conditions that usually don't heal.

So far so completely 'natural'.

Further it is the case that there are things that can boost (or suppress) our natural healing abilities - and those are often linked to our psychological state of well-being. So for example someone who is clinically depressed will often has a suppressed ability to fight off disease through suppression of their immune system and physiology. Conversely things which boost well being can enhance the immune system's ability to fight off disease. Just this week singing in a choir was reported to have this effect. I don't doubt that for believers praying or worship may have a similar effect to choral singing, but again this is entirely natural, through psychological effects and their link to the functioning of the immune system and other physiology.

But of course none of this requires a god, nor Jesus etc and of course there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that spontaneous healing for conditions where spontaneous healing isn't the norm, is anything other than a rare but completely natural phenomenon.
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: Sassy on April 08, 2016, 12:31:42 PM
Coincidently, neither does putting stuff in
 really big fonts
 ::)

It is to get it noticed... and see it works perfectly... ::) ;D

Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: floo on April 08, 2016, 12:40:48 PM
Your nonsense certainly gets noticed Sass, flagging up to all how silly you are. ::)
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: Sebastian Toe on April 08, 2016, 12:48:14 PM
It is to get it noticed... and see it works perfectly... ::) ;D

but .....

it won't make it so.

Which is the point being made but that I suppose is lost on the hard of thinking?  ::)
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: Sassy on April 08, 2016, 12:51:22 PM
but .....

Which is the point being made but that I suppose is lost on the hard of thinking?  ::)

That last part is an opinion and one which is not really any value as it cannot be proved by you.
A passing comment which has no value to what was related to in the original post.
I was trying to save myself the bother of having to write it... ::)
Title: Re: Appeal to lurkers
Post by: Sebastian Toe on April 08, 2016, 12:54:35 PM
That last part is an opinion and one which is not really any value as it cannot be proved by you.

What can't be proved?
The opinion, it's value or that someone seem to be hard of thinking?  ::) ::)