Religion and Ethics Forum

General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Bubbles on May 11, 2016, 01:58:51 PM

Title: Should women be forced to wear high heels at work?
Post by: Bubbles on May 11, 2016, 01:58:51 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-36264229

I thought that was disgraceful on two counts.

Firstly high heels are bad for your back and posture.

Secondly, it's forcing women to become sex objects again  >:(

A lot of women avoid high heels because of the discomfort.

They can also lead to corns and bunions.

I wonder if this company would be prepared to foot the bill for sorting out  those.

Plus if you fell down the stairs in them, wouldn't they be liable under health and safety?

 >:(
Title: Re: Should women be forced to wear high heels at work?
Post by: L.A. on May 11, 2016, 02:28:16 PM
Definitely not, it's fairly well documented that high-heals are bad for feet, so forcing someone to wear them must surely be a breach of 'Health and Safety'.
Title: Re: Should women be forced to wear high heels at work?
Post by: floo on May 11, 2016, 02:38:08 PM
I have just read that and can't believe anyone could be sent home for not wearing those ghastly uncomfortable shoes! I have never been able to wear high heels.
Title: Re: Should women be forced to wear high heels at work?
Post by: splashscuba on May 11, 2016, 02:44:38 PM
Definitely not, it's fairly well documented that high-heals are bad for feet, so forcing someone to wear them must surely be a breach of 'Health and Safety'.
Also discrimination as they aren't forcing men
Title: Re: Should women be forced to wear high heels at work?
Post by: L.A. on May 11, 2016, 03:11:05 PM
Also discrimination as they aren't forcing men

I think it is probably illegal for an employer to force any employee to do something that is known to be unhealthy.
Title: Re: Should women be forced to wear high heels at work?
Post by: Khatru on May 11, 2016, 03:18:06 PM
No doubt the company will try and argue indirect sex discrimination objectively justified by their dress code.

I doubt it would see them through a tribunal hearing though.
Title: Re: Should women be forced to wear high heels at work?
Post by: Brownie on May 11, 2016, 03:33:18 PM
Definitely not.  Low heeled shows can be very dressy and smart and its important to have comfortable feet at work  Men don't have that problem.

I often wonder how the duchess of Cambridge manages to go all over the place wearing such high heels, and looks good in them;  she's got it off to a fine
No doubt the company will try and argue indirect sex discrimination objectively justified by their dress code.

I doubt it would see them through a tribunal hearing though.
art but I bet the shoes come off and feet massaged as soon as she is home.
Title: Re: Should women be forced to wear high heels at work?
Post by: Khatru on May 11, 2016, 03:43:34 PM
I think it is probably illegal for an employer to force any employee to do something that is known to be unhealthy.

Yup.

Even if the risks to your health turns out to be unfounded, it's an automatic unfair dismissal.
Title: Re: Should women be forced to wear high heels at work?
Post by: john on May 11, 2016, 04:28:08 PM
Good god how awful

They'll be insisting on stockings and suspenders next.
Title: Re: Should women be forced to wear high heels at work?
Post by: Harrowby Hall on May 11, 2016, 04:54:06 PM
I find it difficult to believe that this kind of discriminatory treatment by employers has not already been challenged.

When my late wife started teaching over 40 years ago, she received a complaint from a head teacher when she decided to wear trousers in the classroom. She was rather short and did not consider the sight of her underwear when having to stretch - or even stand on a stool - to reach the top of a blackboard or pin up display material was appropriate in the classroom. The head teacher hadn't even considered the possibility but did respect her right to her dignity.
Title: Re: Should women be forced to wear high heels at work?
Post by: L.A. on May 11, 2016, 04:58:26 PM
I find it difficult to believe that this kind of discriminatory treatment by employers has not already been challenged.

I think it is worse than discrimination, it's equivalent to telling employees that they have to smoke.

http://www.osteopathic.org/osteopathic-health/about-your-health/health-conditions-library/womens-health/Pages/high-heels.aspx

http://www.moneycrashers.com/dangers-wearing-high-heels-tips/
Title: Re: Should women be forced to wear high heels at work?
Post by: ippy on May 11, 2016, 06:18:38 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-36264229

I thought that was disgraceful on two counts.

Firstly high heels are bad for your back and posture.

Secondly, it's forcing women to become sex objects again  >:(

A lot of women avoid high heels because of the discomfort.

They can also lead to corns and bunions.

I wonder if this company would be prepared to foot the bill for sorting out  those.

Plus if you fell down the stairs in them, wouldn't they be liable under health and safety?

 >:(

I would like to see the actual person that specified wearing high heels interviewed on by the TV companies and made to explain, himself, it must have been a bloke.

Now if he'd said low cut__________

ippy 
Title: Re: Should women be forced to wear high heels at work?
Post by: L.A. on May 11, 2016, 06:27:44 PM
I would like to see the actual person that specified wearing high heals interviewed on by the TV companies and made to explain, himself, it must have been a bloke.


I'd like to see him charged under the Health and safety at work act.
Title: Re: Should women be forced to wear high heels at work?
Post by: ippy on May 11, 2016, 08:17:43 PM
I'd like to see him charged under the Health and safety at work act.

I've just heard on the news that these actions about high heels are within the law, crazy law, I would have thought that a smart and personable appearence would be a fair requirement to expect for that kind of job and other than the necessary ability; why high heels?

ippy
Title: Re: Should women be forced to wear high heels at work?
Post by: Walt Zingmatilder on May 11, 2016, 08:32:20 PM
Women should be as free as men to wear whatever footwear they like as they have freedoms as men to produce shit journalism.
Title: Re: Should women be forced to wear high heels at work?
Post by: L.A. on May 11, 2016, 09:42:26 PM
I've just heard on the news that these actions about high heels are within the law, crazy law, I would have thought that a smart and personable appearence would be a fair requirement to expect for that kind of job and other than the necessary ability; why high heels?

ippy

I don't see how it can be within the law, the employer is telling the employee to do something that is detrimental to their health - that must be illegal.
Title: Re: Should women be forced to wear high heels at work?
Post by: Hope on May 11, 2016, 10:16:28 PM
Even if the risks to your health turns out to be unfounded,...
They won't be, Khat; they're already too well documented.

What I find somewhat odd is that there are plenty of companies and firms where high heels, whilst not being officially banned, are unofficially discouraged - for a number of reasons.  Why should this company be any different, I wonder?
Title: Re: Should women be forced to wear high heels at work?
Post by: Bubbles on May 11, 2016, 10:33:47 PM
Ouch!

https://www.facebook.com/nicola.gavins/posts/10156847278270162

I know that's not the uk, but still.....

Title: Re: Should women be forced to wear high heels at work?
Post by: Bubbles on May 11, 2016, 10:36:40 PM
I don't see how it can be within the law, the employer is telling the employee to do something that is detrimental to their health - that must be illegal.

Apparently not.

I don't think it's reasonable to ask a woman to wear something which is going to harm her long term.

You can get some very smart low heeled shoes.

The high heel thing is all about power dressing and company image.

Personally I think if a company forces it on female employees then it should pick up the bills for private treatment of bunions and bad backs etc.

It's the sort of dress code you would get if you were a bunny girl  >:(
Title: Re: Should women be forced to wear high heels at work?
Post by: Rhiannon on May 12, 2016, 06:23:08 AM
There are connotations with heels that don't exist with flats. It's a very odd thing to demand in the workplace.

Title: Re: Should women be forced to wear high heels at work?
Post by: Walt Zingmatilder on May 12, 2016, 07:23:47 AM
The company involved have changed there policy ............another triumph of public solidarity over things that barely matter............
Title: Re: Should women be forced to wear high heels at work?
Post by: Rhiannon on May 12, 2016, 07:55:26 AM
You know what it's like to wear heels all day?

As it happens I like heels. But I shouldn't be forced to wear them. Not when there are men out there who think it's acceptable to come up to me and tell me they want me to walk across their back in them.

This story's particularly creepy as it involves a receptionist - someone with very little power in an organisation.
Title: Re: Should women be forced to wear high heels at work?
Post by: Bubbles on May 12, 2016, 08:09:24 AM
You know what it's like to wear heels all day?

As it happens I like heels. But I shouldn't be forced to wear them. Not when there are men out there who think it's acceptable to come up to me and tell me they want me to walk across their back in them.

This story's particularly creepy as it involves a receptionist - someone with very little power in an organisation.

If you didn't like them you could make it stilettos and stamp hard.  ;)

 ;D

Do blokes really say that to women?

I'm not sure a bloke would survive if I walked up his back in a pair of high heels. He'd never walk again, probably.

He'd get laughed at by his mates as they carried him off, for being so daft  :o

Title: Re: Should women be forced to wear high heels at work?
Post by: L.A. on May 12, 2016, 08:13:27 AM
Apparently not.

I don't think it's reasonable to ask a woman to wear something which is going to harm her long term.

You can get some very smart low heeled shoes.

The high heel thing is all about power dressing and company image.

Personally I think if a company forces it on female employees then it should pick up the bills for private treatment of bunions and bad backs etc.

It's the sort of dress code you would get if you were a bunny girl  >:(

It would be interesting to see how it went if it were tested in court. As someone pointed out, some companies actually ban high heals on safety grounds and there are plenty of experts available to testify of the dangers.

If your employer instructs you to do something that is dangerous he is breaking the law.
Title: Re: Should women be forced to wear high heels at work?
Post by: Harrowby Hall on May 12, 2016, 08:33:09 AM
  Why should this company be any different, I wonder?

Because they want to gain an advantage with clients. They want their front of house staff to give male clients a sexual thrill - it might sway their judgement when making decisions.

I'm surprised they don't make male staff wear codpieces!  ::)
Title: Re: Should women be forced to wear high heels at work?
Post by: L.A. on May 12, 2016, 09:29:42 AM
I would imagine that their legal department are having kittens - if the HSE don't get them the  injury lawyers will.
Title: Re: Should women be forced to wear high heels at work?
Post by: Udayana on May 12, 2016, 09:46:45 AM
Legal or not it is obviously unacceptable for any large company to impose such a dress code. However here  the work is outsourced or sub-contracted to smaller firms who are more willing to take risks, in competition with rivals, to keep the business with the larger firm.
Title: Re: Should women be forced to wear high heels at work?
Post by: Rhiannon on May 12, 2016, 03:26:12 PM
If you didn't like them you could make it stilettos and stamp hard.  ;)

 ;D

Do blokes really say that to women?

I'm not sure a bloke would survive if I walked up his back in a pair of high heels. He'd never walk again, probably.

He'd get laughed at by his mates as they carried him off, for being so daft  :o

I've had it said to me, Rose. The other thing about heels is that they are hard run in. Like HH says, it's about giving clients a sexual thrill.
Title: Re: Should women be forced to wear high heels at work?
Post by: wigginhall on May 12, 2016, 03:36:23 PM
I think that's right, it's a kind of sexualization of the female body in the workplace.  Well, sexualization is OK if you are party to it, but not on command. 
Title: Re: Should women be forced to wear high heels at work?
Post by: ippy on May 12, 2016, 03:45:26 PM
I've had it said to me, Rose. The other thing about heels is that they are hard run in. Like HH says, it's about giving clients a sexual thrill.

Apparently you can get a much better grip with high heels when you're up a ladder, so I've been told.

ippy
Title: Re: Should women be forced to wear high heels at work?
Post by: Rhiannon on May 12, 2016, 04:37:22 PM
I think that's right, it's a kind of sexualization of the female body in the workplace.  Well, sexualization is OK if you are party to it, but not on command.

Exactly.
Title: Re: Should women be forced to wear high heels at work?
Post by: floo on May 12, 2016, 05:16:25 PM
I think that's right, it's a kind of sexualization of the female body in the workplace.  Well, sexualization is OK if you are party to it, but not on command.

Agreed.
Title: Re: Should women be forced to wear high heels at work?
Post by: Jack Knave on May 12, 2016, 08:35:34 PM
Couldn't believe this was actually a real news item in that it was actually happening in our world today. Thought I was in a time warp and it was April 1st again.
Title: Re: Should women be forced to wear high heels at work?
Post by: Hope on May 12, 2016, 10:52:10 PM
It is interesting, if the papers are to be believed (I read this in today's Metro) that it wasn't the policy of the company that the temporary receptionist was due to work for (Price Coopers Waterhouse) but that of the temp'ing agency who had sent her.  It was also suggested in the Metro report that some lawyers believe that this is already an outlawed policy.
Title: Re: Should women be forced to wear high heels at work?
Post by: Brownie on May 13, 2016, 10:48:02 PM
That explains it Hope.  I didn't know temp agencies still existed, at least not in form they used to!  A blue chip company like Price Waterhouse would not have a 'high heel' code like that.
Title: Re: Should women be forced to wear high heels at work?
Post by: Harrowby Hall on May 14, 2016, 08:58:01 AM
So it would seem, Brownie, but the BBC source cited in the opening post states:

Temp worker Nicola Thorp, 27, from Hackney, arrived at finance company PwC to be told she had to wear shoes with a "2in to 4in heel".

When she arrived.  So does this mean that someone at PwC informed the temp agency? How else would the agency have known?
Title: Re: Should women be forced to wear high heels at work?
Post by: Rhiannon on May 14, 2016, 09:02:01 AM
Yes, this is the temp agency meeting the requirements of its clients.
Title: Re: Should women be forced to wear high heels at work?
Post by: Udayana on May 14, 2016, 09:17:19 AM
No - PwC don't have such a requirement.

This is a sub-contractor trying to present a certain image of their staff in competition with other sub-contractors/outsourcing agencies. They are easily hired and fired and willing to take on risks that would be unacceptable for larger companies.

Really it's like outsourcing, possibly subliminal, sexist and other prejudiced attitudes and policies.
Title: Re: Should women be forced to wear high heels at work?
Post by: Udayana on May 14, 2016, 09:20:22 AM
...
When she arrived.  So does this mean that someone at PwC informed the temp agency? How else would the agency have known?

No, she was met by a supervisor from the sub-contracting agency,
Title: Re: Should women be forced to wear high heels at work?
Post by: Rhiannon on May 14, 2016, 09:24:22 AM
No - PwC don't have such a requirement.

This is a sub-contractor trying to present a certain image of their staff in competition with other sub-contractors/outsourcing agencies. They are easily hired and fired and willing to take on risks that would be unacceptable for larger companies.

Really it's like outsourcing, possibly subliminal, sexist and other prejudiced attitudes and policies.

Yes, it's buck-passing. It doesn't have to be an official requirement for it to be known that x will get you more work than y. And of course attitudes may have changed within PWC but that hasn't filtered down to the firms it subcontracts to.
Title: Re: Should women be forced to wear high heels at work?
Post by: Sassy on May 14, 2016, 09:56:00 AM
If you didn't like them you could make it stilettos and stamp hard.  ;)

 ;D

Do blokes really say that to women?

I'm not sure a bloke would survive if I walked up his back in a pair of high heels. He'd never walk again, probably.

He'd get laughed at by his mates as they carried him off, for being so daft  :o

I guess some men think some women like that type of thing being said to them.
I personally would find it insulting and disrespectful.  It means they are not seeing the person themselves or seeing them as decent and I would probably give him a slap for insulting me.

And Rose, you made me laugh.. you mean you would walk all over his back for his mates to see...
I rather took that to mean you would do it there and then to show how ill thought his comment was... ;D :D ;D :)

Gets my vote girl... you trample him under foot for being so insulting and forward.. LOL.. ;D ;D
Title: Re: Should women be forced to wear high heels at work?
Post by: Khatru on May 14, 2016, 12:50:01 PM
You know what it's like to wear heels all day?

As it happens I like heels. But I shouldn't be forced to wear them. Not when there are men out there who think it's acceptable to come up to me and tell me they want me to walk across their back in them.

This story's particularly creepy as it involves a receptionist - someone with very little power in an organisation.


Man, some people need to keep their fetishes to themselves!
Title: Re: Should women be forced to wear high heels at work?
Post by: Hope on May 14, 2016, 09:34:09 PM
When she arrived.  So does this mean that someone at PwC informed the temp agency? How else would the agency have known?
Companies are told by agencies what to expect of the temporary staff who are sent to them just as much as agencies are told what is expected of the staff they hire on the behalf of companies.  The only time I've come close to being employed by a normal temp. agency the organisation itself employed me direct at the last moment, as a result of a friend recommending me.  My name had obviously been passed to them at an earlier stage as a potential temporary post-holder.  On my arrival I was told that the agency they thought I'd come from expected A, B & C.  So I asked what the orgnisation expected, and that was a very different story.  Far more informal dress code, a degree of flexiblity of arrival and leaving time, so long as I did 8 hours of work a day, ...