Religion and Ethics Forum
Religion and Ethics Discussion => Theism and Atheism => Topic started by: jeremyp on May 22, 2016, 10:14:31 AM
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By transgender people, apparently.
http://deadstate.org/senior-vatican-official-transgender-rights-are-of-demonic-forces-and-will-bring-the-death-of-god/
According to a prominent Christian (and he should know, right?), God is so puny that a small part of his own creation is killing him.
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Powerful lot for a small segment of the population.
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But isn't God already Dead? An antitheist said so so it must be true.
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But isn't God already Dead? An antitheist said so so it must be true.
Seems that Cardinal Sarah hasn't caught on yet ;)
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Fundies want to deny their fellow human beings the same rights they enjoy.
Perhaps they would benefit from a handy reference list telling them what to do:
Male - love them
Female - love them
Unsure - love them
Straight - love then
Gay - love them
Unsure - love them
Sober - love them
Addict - love them
Believer - love them
Unbeliever - love them
Unsure -love them
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The problem is that the Catholic Church is still trying to force upon the world, by rhetoric if by no other means, an ideology that is 2,000 years old and unchanged over that time. They seem incapable of realising that IF their God wass all-powerful and IF he were as anti-LGBT as they, he could, with a wave of his Almighty hand, wipe LGBT belief fron the world.
He hasn't; therefore he is apparently leaving it as a matter for his children on earth to sort out and they are sorting it out by looking at statements like Cardinal Sarah's, dismissing it, and saying what a load of old rubbish, ignore it, and those propagating it.
This will not mean the death of God, only the death of the God that Catholics believe in.
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The problem is that the Catholic Church is still trying to force upon the world, by rhetoric if by no other means, an ideology that is 2,000 years old and unchanged over that time. They seem incapable of realising that IF their God wass all-powerful and IF he were as anti-LGBT as they, he could, with a wave of his Almighty hand, wipe LGBT belief fron the world.
Owl, what's this about LGBT being a belief?
Regarding the ideology that is 2000 years old, the British social system is based on ideology that long pre-dates that period. Is it time that it was done away with, as well.
He hasn't; therefore he is apparently leaving it as a matter for his children on earth to sort out and they are sorting it out by looking at statements like Cardinal Sarah's, dismissing it, and saying what a load of old rubbish, ignore it, and those propagating it.
I suppose 'his children on earth' could equally say that all LGBT people had to be put to death (something that has been the case in the past and in various parts of the world). Can you provide us with any evidence that Jesus taught that, let alone any of the writers of the New Testament documents?
This will not mean the death of God, only the death of the God that Catholics believe in.
Your evidence for this assertion, please.
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Fundies want to deny their fellow human beings the same rights they enjoy.
Perhaps they would benefit from a handy reference list telling them what to do:
Male - love them
Female - love them
Unsure - love them
Straight - love then
Gay - love them
Unsure - love them
Sober - love them
Addict - love them
Believer - love them
Unbeliever - love them
Unsure -love them
'Love them' is what Jesus taught, Khat - you're correct; he also taught us to admonish people where they were going wrong. This is far more loving than that indiscriminate laissez-faire attitude you seem keen to espouse.
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"Going wrong" however is of course mere opinion.
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By transgender people, apparently.
http://deadstate.org/senior-vatican-official-transgender-rights-are-of-demonic-forces-and-will-bring-the-death-of-god/
According to a prominent Christian (and he should know, right?), God is so puny that a small part of his own creation is killing him.
Was Christ a high priest in the normal world of flesh?
Is this man a high priest in the Kingdom of God?
How can anyone kill God?
I am the first and the last the Alpha and the Omega.
God cannot die and trans gender people cannot bring about the fall of anything to do with God.
God is all powerful if man could make God go away then he hadn't managed it in all the centuries since he created mankind.
Whilst these things are not of God they certainly are all of the flesh. The Roman Catholic Church losing it's earthly grip because Gods Kingdom is equal in all mankind.
I cannot believe for one moment anyone who is a child of God accepts this or even believes it can affect Gods Kingdom or Gods people.
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The problem is that the Catholic Church is still trying to force upon the world, by rhetoric if by no other means, an ideology that is 2,000 years old and unchanged over that time. They seem incapable of realising that IF their God wass all-powerful and IF he were as anti-LGBT as they, he could, with a wave of his Almighty hand, wipe LGBT belief fron the world.
He hasn't; therefore he is apparently leaving it as a matter for his children on earth to sort out and they are sorting it out by looking at statements like Cardinal Sarah's, dismissing it, and saying what a load of old rubbish, ignore it, and those propagating it.
It isn't 2,000 years old it started approximately 400 years after Christ.
The Kingdom of God the true Church of God started with Christ and the baptism of the Holy Spirit in Acts when the disciples became the first.
This will not mean the death of God, only the death of the church the Catholics believe in.
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I find it strange that no one does as that list suggests... here a perfect example.
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'Love them' is what Jesus taught, Khat - you're correct; he also taught us to admonish people where they were going wrong. This is far more loving than that indiscriminate laissez-faire attitude you seem keen to espouse.
How's the plank removal coming along?
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'Love them' is what Jesus taught, Khat - you're correct; he also taught us to admonish people where they were going wrong. This is far more loving than that indiscriminate laissez-faire attitude you seem keen to espouse.
Except that homosexuality and unbelief aren't, as you say, "going wrong".
That sort of attitude is what you'd expect from primitives who didn't know where the sun went at night, which, co-incidentally is when Christianity began.
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Except that homosexuality and unbelief aren't, as you say, "going wrong".
That sort of attitude is what you'd expect from primitives who didn't know where the sun went at night, which, co-incidentally is when Christianity began.
Ah, but homosexuality is fine. It's just homosexual behaviour that Hope hates.
Or so he claims...
Of course it's not remotely hateful to deny the right to fulfilling love that you yourself enjoy. Not in the slightest.
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How's the plank removal coming along?
Can you see the daylight, yet, Rhiannon?
;D
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I don't live by your god's rules, Sass. Hope does.
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I don't live by your god's rules, Sass. Hope does.
What has that to do with removing the plank?
Unless you are calling yourself a 'ruler' rather than a 'plank'.
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How can anyone kill God?
You tell me. It was one of your ilk that claimed he is being killed.
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Regarding the ideology that is 2000 years old, the British social system is based on ideology that long pre-dates that period.
Is it? How on Earth did you come to that conclusion?
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Owl, what's this about LGBT being a belief?
Sorry - this should have read "wipe the belief that LGBT is acceptabvle from the world".
Regarding the ideology that is 2000 years old, the British social system is based on ideology that long pre-dates that period. Is it time that it was done away with, as well.
Another nonsense argument with no foundation in fact from the King of the Nonzsense argument.
I suppose 'his children on earth' could equally say that all LGBT people had to be put to death (something that has been the case in the past and in various parts of the world). Can you provide us with any evidence that Jesus taught that, let alone any of the writers of the New Testament documents?
Isnt there some verse in tyhe bible that states that a man who lays with a man shall be stoned (that is the G in LGBT by the way).
Your evidence for this assertion, please.
The FACT that attachment to Christianity is dropping almost as fast a lead baloon.
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Sorry - this should have read "wipe the belief that LGBT is acceptabvle from the world".
Are you really arguing that the idea of LGBT being acceptable should be wiped from the world? ;) Even I don't do that; I simply argue that homosexuality oughtn't to be regarded as equal to heterosexual marriage.
Another nonsense argument with no foundation in fact from the King of the Nonzsense argument.
So, do you believe that the age-old ideology that regards killing another person in cold blood should be struck out of our legislative material? Or that the equally age-old belief that theft is a crime should be ditched - especially if it is theft of the kind that is victimless?
Isnt there some verse in tyhe bible that states that a man who lays with a man shall be stoned (that is the G in LGBT by the way).
You need to differentiate between the Hebrew Scriptures and the Christian Scriptures (aka the Old Testament and the New Testament respectively), Owl. At no point in the latter is punishment by stoning considered acceptable.
The FACT that attachment to Christianity is dropping almost as fast a lead baloon.
Currently, the number of Christians is at worst static, and probably growing. The FACT that it is shrinking in the West could indicate that the West is growing out of a sense of spiritual being, or that it is losing touch with reality. In view of the growth of other ideas that could be regarded as spiritual in nature, I'd suggest that the latter is probably more likely.
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Are you really arguing that the idea of LGBT being acceptable should be wiped from the world? ;) Even I don't do that; I simply argue that homosexuality oughtn't to be regarded as equal to heterosexual marriage.
And yet you can't provide a single cogent, coherent, rational reason for this stance.
If there was one, you and your kind would have provided it long ago. As it is, there isn't one.
The good news is that an ever-increasing number of places in the world do treat marriage as an equal matter between heterosexual or homosexual couples, there being every reason to do so and no reason to do otherwise.
The dominoes of anti-gay prejudice are a-falling one by one; your side is losing (cohort replacement, it's called), and there's not a damned thing that you can do about it. When it comes to progressive measures that make people's lives better by offering them more choice and extending their rights, it's safe to say that time and the younger generations are on the right side. Younger people have less time to become ossified by - or indeed enslaved by - unthinking adherence to tradition for the sake of it and are more open-minded.
Currently, the number of Christians is at worst static, and probably growing.
In the First World that's not what the figures say.
The FACT that it is shrinking in the West could indicate that the West is growing out of a sense of spiritual being, or that it is losing touch with reality.
Or that more people know bullshit when they see it.
Or that the material conditions - poor, deprived ones - which are the natural soil for pious, hopeful beliefs about another, better plane of reality without hunger, sickness and want are generally improving.
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You need to differentiate between the Hebrew Scriptures and the Christian Scriptures (aka the Old Testament and the New Testament respectively), Owl.
You and Sassy are as hypocritical as each other when it comes to quoting the Bible - the KJV, which you are both so frequently quote, translated both the Old and the New Testaments and, when it suits you both, it means what it says; when it does not suit you you resort to the claim that the words used meant something different when the translation was made.
As I said to Sassy elsewhere, I have had more than enough of the rubbish to which you will resort to try and prove and justify your beliefs and to discredit mine and I cannot be bothered any more as, no matter what arguments are put to you in refutation of your so strongly held load of old rubbish, you refuse point-blank to listen; yoiu respond either with more rubbish or "evidence" from your worldwide contacts in every profession and academic and religious discipline there is, and from your knowledge of the entire world during the time that you have travelled in and worked in every country on the globe.
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Was Christ a high priest in the normal world of flesh?
Is this man a high priest in the Kingdom of God?
How can anyone kill God?
I am the first and the last the Alpha and the Omega.
God cannot die and trans gender people cannot bring about the fall of anything to do with God.
God is all powerful if man could make God go away then he hadn't managed it in all the centuries since he created mankind.
Whilst these things are not of God they certainly are all of the flesh. The Roman Catholic Church losing it's earthly grip because Gods Kingdom is equal in all mankind.
I cannot believe for one moment anyone who is a child of God accepts this or even believes it can affect Gods Kingdom or Gods people.
Do you worship Christ as your god?
Don't Christians say that Christ was killed on the cross?
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I simply argue that homosexuality oughtn't to be regarded as equal to heterosexual marriage.
Funny I seem to recall you saying that homosexuality was bad for society.
In fact the above statement makes no sense - did you mean to type that homosexual marriage oughtn't to be regarded as equal to heterosexual marriage?
Otherwise you are comparing oranges and wallets.
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Well it's NOT equal to 'straight' ha ha marriage & is all the better for it. ;) 8) 8)
We're talking about souls here & unless you want to argue the very moot point of our souls being male or female one should shut one's gob, no !?!?!?
Nick
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You tell me. It was one of your ilk that claimed he is being killed.
Hey don't tar me with the same brush...Certainly nothing to do with ilk personal opinion of some so heavenly minded of no earthly use. :)
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You and Sassy are as hypocritical as each other when it comes to quoting the Bible - the KJV, which you are both so frequently quote, translated both the Old and the New Testaments and, when it suits you both, it means what it says; when it does not suit you you resort to the claim that the words used meant something different when the translation was made.
As I said to Sassy elsewhere, I have had more than enough of the rubbish to which you will resort to try and prove and justify your beliefs and to discredit mine and I cannot be bothered any more as, no matter what arguments are put to you in refutation of your so strongly held load of old rubbish, you refuse point-blank to listen; yoiu respond either with more rubbish or "evidence" from your worldwide contacts in every profession and academic and religious discipline there is, and from your knowledge of the entire world during the time that you have travelled in and worked in every country on the globe.
Do you ever read your own posts?
I don't have to defend myself against you.
You are your own worst, judge and Jury and even hang yourself to make the mess a full sweep.
There are two things your post show.
1. You don't know the bible or understand the first thing about the Christian Faith.
2. You are only here to attack and try cause disruption.
The fact that you judge, find yourself guilty and hang yourself, is simply a benefit for all who are believers.
Thank you for doing all that for us...Case closed.
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Do you worship Christ as your god?
Don't Christians say that Christ was killed on the cross?
Very sneaky Khatru,
But how would you worship Christ as God?
He was flogged and beaten before he died on the cross.
But was it the Romans or the Jews who Killed him?
What was written above his cross... The King of the Jews....
Who do you say he was? Why ask me can you not make your mind up?
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As far as the Jews are concerned, Jesus was a charlatan as he didn't fulfill ALL the Messiah-ship criteria !! Fact ! The penalty was death !
He was viewed as simple another trouble maker by the Romans & they really didn't need any of that.
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As far as the Jews are concerned, Jesus was a charlatan as he didn't fulfill ALL the Messiah-ship criteria !! Fact ! The penalty was death !
He was viewed as simple another trouble maker by the Romans & they really didn't need any of that.
Going back to the title of the thread - Do you think that it is possible that the attitudes of people (Christians) like Sassy, Hope, ~TW~ and Spud et al are contributing to the slow death of their God and the religion that follows him?
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Going back to the title of the thread - Do you think that it is possible that the attitudes of people (Christians) like Sassy, Hope, ~TW~ and Spud et al are contributing to the slow death of their God and the religion that follows him?
It's a contributory factor I'm sure.
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It's a contributory factor I'm sure.
Please quantify the size of the contribution? I agree with you, but would like to see if our ideas of just how much difference they make are even close to each other.
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As far as the Jews are concerned, Jesus was a charlatan as he didn't fulfill ALL the Messiah-ship criteria !!
Not all of them.
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Owlswing
Yes I sometimes do feel some are just hanging on by their very fingers to a very high precipice.
It had to be ALL or nothing, Vlad. Ask the Jews !!!
Nick
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As far as the Jews are concerned, Jesus was a charlatan as he didn't fulfill ALL the Messiah-ship criteria !! Fact ! The penalty was death !
He was viewed as simple another trouble maker by the Romans & they really didn't need any of that.
Nick, I'd agree that Jesus was regarded as a charlatan by the Jewish leaders of the time (though perhaps not by the Jews in general, if the events of Palm Sunday, or the fact that the Friday crowd had to be encouraged to decry him are to be believed). However, the concept of Messiah had changed following the series of invasions had that started with that of the Assyrians in the 6th century BC, from that of a spiritual saviour to a politicao-military saviour. He certainly didn't fulfil any of the criteria for this politico-military messiah, but did fulfil all the criteria for the more traditional one. I suppose it depends on whether politico-military power is the more important.
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It had to be ALL or nothing, Vlad. Ask the Jews !!!
Go on then, ask the likes of Paul; Peter and the other disciples; the crowds who followed and listened to Jesus during the 3 years of his ministry; the hundreds of Jews who became believers in the Christian gospel during those early days. Just because most of the Jewish religious leaders believed that he was a charlatan doesn't mean that other Jews did.
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Didn't say they did BUT the ones that 'mattered' obviously did.
The fact any Jews followed him doesn't mean he WAS The Messiah.
I read that the Jews of Jesus' time were expecting a Messiah of the sword not Peace too !!! To rid them of the Romans which, BTW was why they 'needed' a Messiah in the first place, no ???
Nick
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Very sneaky Khatru,
But how would you worship Christ as God?
He was flogged and beaten before he died on the cross.
But was it the Romans or the Jews who Killed him?
What was written above his cross... The King of the Jews....
Who do you say he was? Why ask me can you not make your mind up?
Not sneaky at all - just an observation which you appear to be unable to deal with.
You say that Jesus is your lord.
You say that your lord cannot be killed.
You say that Jesus was killed by either the Romans or the Jews.
See your quandary?
Contradiction remains the foundation of your mythology.
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As far as the Jews are concerned, Jesus was a charlatan as he didn't fulfill ALL the Messiah-ship criteria !! Fact ! The penalty was death !
He was viewed as simple another trouble maker by the Romans & they really didn't need any of that.
But not all jews believed that... in fact the disciples were jews and they spread the word and low and behold we have a christian/jewish faith which is believed in by a third of the worlds population.
So as far as the Jews are concerned we still have messianic jews who believe Christ is the Messiah.
Difficult for you because you just choose what fits your choice of belief. But the truth shows it was the Jews, Christ being a Jew who established the Christian faith. The Messianic reign of Christ the Son of God.
So it is a Jewish religion no matter how you look at it.. grafted into the tree of the Jews. A new covenant to include all as God promises.
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Sorry but WRONG again - Firstly I don't make fact fit MY criteria, unlike some here & secondly
Jesus did NOT come to create the Christian faith - He lived & died a JEW !!!!!!! FACT
So YOU are a Jew, NO ?????
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. . . we have a christian/jewish faith which is believed in by a third of the worlds population.
In other words outnumbered two-to-one! Therefore no longer a majority!
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Jesus did NOT come to create the Christian faith - He lived & died a JEW !!!!!!! FACT
Unfortunately this is the one FACT that Christians are still trying to get over. It is also the one that they will never, ever, be able to reconcile with ther neverending drivel.
No matter how they twist it turn it, re-evaluate it, re-write it or re-vomit it!
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By transgender people, apparently.
http://deadstate.org/senior-vatican-official-transgender-rights-are-of-demonic-forces-and-will-bring-the-death-of-god/
According to a prominent Christian (and he should know, right?), God is so puny that a small part of his own creation is killing him.
Well if the picture included on the report is anything to go by, I wouldn't worry too much. Obviously the talker was considered a bore. 💤😴😲
😀
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Not sneaky at all - just an observation which you appear to be unable to deal with.
You say that Jesus is your lord.
You say that your lord cannot be killed.
You say that Jesus was killed by either the Romans or the Jews.
See your quandary?
Contradiction remains the foundation of your mythology.
Careful, Khatru. I think you'll find that Sass believes that Christ was the Son of God, but not God the Son.
Not that it matters a hoot to anyone but her.
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How's the plank removal coming along?
You'll need to ask the folk who seem to be blinded by planks, Rhi. In fact, it would be worth seeing what your own response to the question is.
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You'll need to ask the folk who seem to be blinded by planks, Rhi. In fact, it would be worth seeing what your own response to the question is.
I don't live by your god's rules. You do. Not feeling the love there, Hope.
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Regarding the topic title it should be remembered that for much of the 1st Millennium AD Christianity was either marginalised and under persecution or was even non-existent across much of Europe. This was largely as a result of pressure on and ultimately the collapse of the Roman Empire between 400 and 600 AD from the Huns who were being pushed west by invaders from Mongolia and China.The Huns and other people groups from the East, the steppes and what are now the 'stans' all-but destroyed Christianity n mainland Europe and even England, and the the culture that had existed for 7 or 800 years under the Romans.
They destroyed the libraries that had been built up over centuries and, if it hadn't been for Christians fleeing from the hordes and taking as many of the books as they could which became the libraries in the Western extremities of the continent - Scotland, Ireland and Wales - much of what we regard as the classics would have disappeared for all time.
It wasn't until Chritianity began to emerge from the Western fringes and recolonised first England and then the mainland from the West that Europe began to emerge from the Dark Ages - circa 800AD.
Ironically, history tells us that, when Christians are in a minority, Christianity is more effective than when it's in a majority.
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(((((Christianity is more effective than when it's in a majority.)))))
Meaning?
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(((((Christianity is more effective than when it's in a majority.)))))
Meaning?
We should be being scared shitless as the fewer they get the more effective they are!
Sassy must be reading the latest reduction figures for existing practicing Christians in a blaze of orgasmic ecstacy!
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We should be being scared shitless as the fewer they get the more effective they are!
Sassy must be reading the latest reduction figures for existing practicing Christians in a blaze of orgasmic ecstacy!
That was Hope's quote, not one of Sass's!
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Hope said this....
They destroyed the libraries that had been built up over centuries and, if it hadn't been for Christians fleeing from the hordes and taking as many of the books as they could which became the libraries in the Western extremities of the continent - Scotland, Ireland and Wales - much of what we regard as the classics would have disappeared for all time.
It wasn't until Chritianity began to emerge from the Western fringes and recolonised first England and then the mainland from the West that Europe began to emerge from the Dark Ages - circa 800AD.
THIS IS A COMPLETE INVERSION OF THE FACTS.....
It was Christians who destroyed and supressed "The Books"/ancient learning because it contradicted their biblical beliefs. Virtually all of the ancient Greek, Egyptian etc. literature we now have has been recovered from Islamic sources and through archeological findings.
Christianity even restricted the peoples ability to read for themselves to ensure only priests could interpret and disseminate the little information the church allowed.
Your version of events is completely untrue.
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Let's not forget the Early Kushite of the Nubians and the Sacred Texts of the Native American Nations.
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http://rejectionofpascalswager.net/reasonfathers.html
Interesting link here detailing the facts about how and why Christianity suppressed ancient knowledge.
You should read it Hopey!
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There is also a wealth of Christian wisdom that has been lost because other Christians destroyed it for belonging to the wrong kind of Christianity,
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THIS IS A COMPLETE INVERSION OF THE FACTS.....
It was Christians who destroyed and supressed "The Books"/ancient learning because it contradicted their biblical beliefs. Virtually all of the ancient Greek, Egyptian etc. literature we now have has been recovered from Islamic sources and through archeological findings.
Christianity even restricted the peoples ability to read for themselves to ensure only priests could interpret and disseminate the little information the church allowed.
Your version of events is completely untrue.
evidence of your accusation, please, john. Perhaps you can quote the instructions, prefetably in the Bible, that shows that Christianity (as opposed to humans) did what you suggest - especially before the end of the 1st millennium AD. Remember, too, that the Church started setting up educational establishments for people other than priests in the middle of the 1st millennium.
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Hope
Read the link for a start
And then some history books not designed solely to propagate the Christian view point.
For instance the ancient Greeks knew the earth was a globe. Knowledge suppressed by the Christian church because heaven was up and hell was down and Eden was the centre of the universe. See what happened to Copernicus and Galileo when they said different.
The way you distort fact to suit your own agenda is outrageous.
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... and then there's Giordano Bruno. Lesser known to most, better example though.
Likewise for Giulio Cesare Vanini. Not generally known, ought to be.
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Hope
The way you distort fact to suit your own agenda is outrageous.
I just hope that when he was a teacher he did not treat the information that he was teaching his students in the same way as her treats information that he "teaches" on here,
Unfortuately I cannot in all honesty say that I would be sure that he did not.
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Bugger all happened to Copernicus. The book was questioned way after he died at least by the Catholic Church. The Reformers were much quicker off the mark on that.
Galileo's issue was more questioning the Aristotelian system rather than the Bible, and arise out works that had a great deal of sponsorship from the church.
Dear Giordano, to whose statue I make a pilgrimage when in Rome, and raise a glass in the Campo dei Fiori, is undoubtedly a lost genius but his trial concentrated on what were seen as specific theological issues, not his cosmology. There is certainly an interplay between the two but it's not a simple matter of oppression.
All 3 enjoyed considerable support from the church as well difficulty. The idea of something like the Catholic church, or Christianity as being a single monolith is not historic, though institutions love to be seen that way. We like simple histories, written in black and white, but then we like simple futures too.
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Hope
Read the link for a start
Didn't realise that there was a link, but that may have had something to do with my using my phone for my last post.
And then some history books not designed solely to propagate the Christian view point.
Sorry, I wasn't quoting books but information that I have gleaned over the years from a variety of sources, from Early Christian histories, to history scholars of a variety of belief systems.
For instance the ancient Greeks knew the earth was a globe. Knowledge suppressed by the Christian church because heaven was up and hell was down and Eden was the centre of the universe. See what happened to Copernicus and Galileo when they said different.
I'm not sure what the Orthodox understanding of the nature of the globe was/is, but the most of the early church didn't seem to hold to the flat-earth thinking - "During the early Church period, the spherical view continued to be widely held, with some notable exceptions."(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth#Early_Christian_Church). OK, some leaders of the church questioned it - folk like St Augustine - but then so did several notable non-Christians of the time.
The way you distort fact to suit your own agenda is outrageous.
You might do well to take your own advice, john (and owly, of course).
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All 3 enjoyed considerable support from the church as well difficulty. The idea of something like the Catholic church, or Christianity as being a single monolith is not historic, though institutions love to be seen that way. We like simple histories, written in black and white, but then we like simple futures too.
Though no fan of the Catholic Church myself, I think this is a very fair analysis. The Galileo affair is often cited as an example of the dastardly oppression of scientific enquiry by the latter institution, but Santayana's* account of the events makes it clear that this was not the whole story. Galileo was as much a victim of his own conceit and stubbornness (not to mention his particularly stupid attempt to portray the contemporary pontiff as a complete idiot**) as the restrictive methods of the Church. And I believe that there were certain things about his theories which he simply did not have the data to prove as fact at the time. This didn't stop him stating such things as facts. He was right, after all. But he was no martyr to truth.
**Which may well have been the case.
In the case of Copernicus - exactly as you say. He kept his ideas under lock and key, and in fact was led to them more by the promptings of his obsessive-compulsive disorder than a desire to "follow the burning light of truth". Koestler's assessment (The Sleepwalkers) is interesting.
*I typed this very fast in a library, just before closing time. I originally typed "Santana". Now the latino psychedelic rock musician may well have been a bit of a philosopher. And indeed the venerable Jorge Agustín Nicolás Ruiz de Santayana y Borrás (known here as George Santayana) may well have liked to strum the electric guitar in his spare time....
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I just hope that when he was a teacher he did not treat the information that he was teaching his students in the same way as her treats information that he "teaches" on here,
Unfortuately I cannot in all honesty say that I would be sure that he did not.
As I've previously mentioned, owl, it might be worth your checking your facts before making this kind of baseless accusation.I post here in the same way that I taught in schools - only after a study in depth and breadth of the issue, and acknowledging that over time there have been a variety of opinions on issues like the ones under debate.
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http://rejectionofpascalswager.net/reasonfathers.html
Interesting link here detailing the facts about how and why Christianity suppressed ancient knowledge.
You should read it Hopey!
It is interesting, but as it is written for and carried by a skeptics website it certainly can't be deemed to be unbiased and therefore has to be read in that light. If you can find me an article or something that is NOT biased, one way or the other, I'll look at it more favourably.
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That was Hope's quote, not one of Sass's!
I didn't say it was Sassy's quote, I merely posted my view of what Sassy's reaction would be to the comment regardless of who made it.
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We should be being scared shitless as the fewer they get the more effective they are!
Sassy must be reading the latest reduction figures for existing practicing Christians in a blaze of orgasmic ecstacy!
Owly, its perhaps worth your remembering that marginalised groups are at their most effective/productive when they are small and sing from the same proverbial hymnsheet. They become less effective as they begin to sing from diverse 'hymnsheets'.
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Any sign of the dwindling number of Christians all 'singing from the same hymn sheet' then?
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Owly, its perhaps worth your remembering that marginalised groups are at their most effective/productive when they are small and sing from the same proverbial hymnsheet. They become less effective as they begin to sing from diverse 'hymnsheets'.
As if the Christian Church isn't militant enough as it is!
As to your comment I already knew that or I wouldn't have made the comment I did! I see you didn't actually bother to read my post which stated that!
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Sorry but WRONG again - Firstly I don't make fact fit MY criteria, unlike some here & secondly
Jesus did NOT come to create the Christian faith - He lived & died a JEW !!!!!!! FACT
So YOU are a Jew, NO ?????
9 And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.
Christ did fulfill the criteria as laid down by the Prophets.
Had you been educated in the things of the Messiah you would have known it was the Messiah who would bring the final truth hence the diverse different beliefs held by Pharisee ad Sadducee. The Messiah to bring the final truth and teach them.
The Jewish council could not put anyone to death but as we see Jesus broke no law and the Romans proved that and the washing of his hands shows he wanted no part in putting Christ to death because he had no committed any crime not even against the Jews.
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Unfortunately this is the one FACT that Christians are still trying to get over. It is also the one that they will never, ever, be able to reconcile with ther neverending drivel.
No matter how they twist it turn it, re-evaluate it, re-write it or re-vomit it!
Ignorance abounds....
If Christ wasn't a Jew and lived the life of a Jew he couldn't be the Messiah.
There is dumb then just plain ignorance. You and Trippy appear blissfully happy to wear your ignorance like a badge of honour when in fact it shows how little you know about being Jew or the Messiah.
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Not sneaky at all - just an observation which you appear to be unable to deal with.
You say that Jesus is your lord.
You say that your lord cannot be killed.
You say that Jesus was killed by either the Romans or the Jews.
See your quandary?
Contradiction remains the foundation of your mythology.
Your lack of knowledge and the stupid idea of twisting the irrelevant is where you are coming from.
Either make individual bullet points and give scripture to confirm or admit you just make things up as you go alone.
UTTER DRIVEL no Quandry... Are you sure you are on the right forum?
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MMMMMM INDEED !!!!!
There's none so blind..... etc etc
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Careful, Khatru. I think you'll find that Sass believes that Christ was the Son of God, but not God the Son.
Not that it matters a hoot to anyone but her.
The truth is that God clearly points out in Luke 1. 35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
Christ makes it clear as does the disciples that he has made God known to us.
King James Bible
No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
John 1:49
49 Na·thanʹa·el responded: “Rabbi, you are the Son of God, you are King of Israel.”
Micah 5:2
2 And you, O Bethʹle·hem Ephʹra·thah,
The one too little to be among the thousands of Judah,
From you will come out for me the one to be ruler in Israel,
Whose origin is from ancient times, from the days of long ago.
Planned before the beginning of the world.
God telling the end from the beginning.
So why not read up on the Messiah you and Khatru might learn something. It is no good having a debate where you have nothing to argue with.
King James Bible
Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
Jesus Christ came in the flesh hence he never at any time declared he was God. He said God had sent him and was with him.
Acts 10 Peter also declares the same.
King James Bible
For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
Jesus came in flesh not God. God was with Christ and we see in Acts 7.
55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
As believers the truth is paramount we also know that Paul clearly understood that when everything was complete then Christ would place everything including himself back under God.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Christ then become subject to God and is placed back under God.
So whatever it was you hoped to avoid you cannot avoid it by misrepresentation or stirring up the difference in beliefs.
I follow the OT and then what is in the NT has to be verified by the OLD.
Being called the Son of God makes himself being equal to God in such a way it was considered blasphemy.
But Christ shows that the definition of being a Son or descendant is about doing as your Father/ancestor did.
39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
Jesus said God was his FATHER, that can be clearly seen in that he did the works of his Father.
King James Bible
Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
A lot of people lost the definition of what it meant for Christ to be the Son of God. Doing the works his Father created for him before the beginning of time.
Whilst we may differ on the beliefs of who are Messiah is, we know definitely he was the Son of God because he did the WILL of God the Father.
All men know God by the power and presence of his Gracious Holy Spirit within them.
King James Bible
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Hence to belong to God the Father and Christ you must be born again by the Spirit.
John at the beginning says Christ brings the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
The fact is no where does it teach you must believe Christ is God. It says you must believe in who he is "The Son of God the Messiah" whom God sent.
Now the world has fallen under the wrongful teachings. The right teaching is God being with his Son and they being one
by the power of Gods Spirit and so we are all made one as they are one by being baptised with the Holy Spirit.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Some people are honest and when they see the truth written they know what Jesus is talking about and understand what those in Spirit knew, that we are to call Christ the Son of God and why we must call him this.
There is much to learn but the truth is for those who believe.
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YAWN!
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I don't live by your god's rules, Sass. Hope does.
But you don't know what Gods rules are... since when were you born of THE Spirit and Truth?
Are you saying when you claimed to be a believer you believed what Hope did and professed it?
I am guessing your answer would be 'NO'. So how do you put Gods rules as an example of Hope living them.
Rather HYPOCRITICAL of yourself, unless you actually believed as a Christian what Hope believed.
If you didn't then why are you actually discussing things you have no understanding about with Hope?
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Do you worship Christ as your god?
Don't Christians say that Christ was killed on the cross?
As eternal life means:-
1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Knowing both God and Jesus Christ, why would I worship Christ as God? Or why would I worship God as if Christ?
As Christ was tempted he could not be God and as God tests no one what would that make Christ?
17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
As you can see Satan could not tempt God. He clearly says if thou be the SON OF GOD....
Nice try Kahtru but you haven't a clue or the knowledge to understand who Christ is and how is one with God as all believers are.
So no I don't worship Christ as God. As Christ did not worship Satan because he worships God alone.
9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
I am called to do as Christ did, not do as Satan would wish and worship Christ as if God.
We can see the truth that we are to worship God and serve him alone. Hence I believe Christ is the Son of God as God himself through the Angel announced.
We are called to do as Christ did, not make Christ God.
But acknowledge as Moses God put his words in Christs mouth.
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Funny I seem to recall you saying that homosexuality was bad for society.
In fact the above statement makes no sense - did you mean to type that homosexual marriage oughtn't to be regarded as equal to heterosexual marriage?
Otherwise you are comparing oranges and wallets.
How do you male Ying into Yang and Yang into Ying?
It makes no sense in trying to make two different things to be the same. Either both exist or only one exists.
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We should be being scared shitless as the fewer they get the more effective they are!
Sassy must be reading the latest reduction figures for existing practicing Christians in a blaze of orgasmic ecstacy!
There is no power in ignorance only in truth...
It might dawn on you one day...
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There is no power in ignorance only in truth...
It might dawn on you one day...
Oh Sass if only you could realise how completely daft your posts are! You have no more idea of the 'truth', where the existence of a deity and afterlife are concerned, than anyone else on this planet.
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YAWN!
I'll see your YAWN and raise you a YAWN!!!
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Oh Sass if only you could realise how completely daft your posts are! You have no more idea of the 'truth', where the existence of a deity and afterlife are concerned, than anyone else on this planet.
;D ::) ::) ::)
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I'll see your YAWN and raise you a YAWN!!!
I am unable to use the different fonts etc and smilies featured here, since I changed to Windows 10, I don't have a problem on other forums, though. Goodness knows what it is about this forum?
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I am unable to do use the different fonts etc and smilies featured here, since I changed to Windows 10, I don't have a problem on other forums, though. Goodness knows what it is about this forum?
Don't worry about it! Your inability to utilise these functions ensures your safety from the Phillistines who think you only need one font and upper and lower case for any kind of emphasis.
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The truth is that God clearly points out in .........
etc. and so on ad infinitum
Yes, yes. There are many biblical texts which support your view, just as there are a number of texts which support the Trinitarian view. Argue it out with the Trinitarians, if they're interested. I'm not a believer of any kind, so it's of no account to me.
I was in fact doing you a favour by pointing out to Khatru that he was accusing you about something you don't actually believe in.
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I am unable to use the different fonts etc and smilies featured here, since I changed to Windows 10, I don't have a problem on other forums, though. Goodness knows what it is about this forum?
Well, it can't be a problem with Windows 10 because I have it as well, and don't have a problem with the fonts, colours or sizes.
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I'll see your YAWN and raise you a YAWN!!!
You will still both be twice as boring and I feel flattered you are copying my YAWNNNN No original answers.
But if there was a definition for the Zzzzzz THEN you both would be apt for it...
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You will still both be twice as boring and I feel flattered you are copying my YAWNNNN No original answers.
But if there was a definition for the Zzzzzz THEN you both would be apt for it...
YAWN
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YAWN
As I said no originality even copying my moving YAWN...what would you do without my efforts to give you things to say... :P
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As I said no originality even copying my moving YAWN...what would you do without my efforts to give you things to say... :P
Live a far more peaceful and satisfying life without the constant cascade of Biblical horseshite!
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Well, it can't be a problem with Windows 10 because I have it as well, and don't have a problem with the fonts, colours or sizes.
It is just strange it happened as soon as I changed to Windows 10, but as it doesn't happen on any other forum on which I post, it is probably a coincidence.
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I am going to try it. IT WORKS!!!
YIPPEE!!
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Live a far more peaceful and satisfying life without the constant cascade of Biblical horseshite!
But you come on here.......... ???
The best way of getting rid of a lot of it is to take a hammer to the computer and throw your phone and iPad out the window.
Trouble is I think most of us are hooked. :-[
Perhaps we need one of those sessions
" hello I'm Rose, and I've been addicted to the Internet for X years :-["
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;D I think we like forum posting Rose. We wouldn't do it otherwise. I certainly enjoy posting on here.
However there have been some times in the past, particularly a couple of years ago, when forum posting has become a habit and I've felt quite weary and depressed about logging in. At times like that it's good to have a break.
Crosswords are a good alternative for me.
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But you come on here.......... ???
The best way of getting rid of a lot of it is to take a hammer to the computer and throw your phone and iPad out the window.
Trouble is I think most of us are hooked. :-[
Perhaps we need one of those sessions
" hello I'm Rose, and I've been addicted to the Internet for X years :-["
I guess it has become a way of life, Rose.
I wish the internet had never been invented. Trying to get my son off the computer at night because of college is a work of art.
My disabled daughter has an ipad. I worry she might get on something she should not be on. My son has or will be putting a child lock on thank goodness.
I am not on that much now. Too busy these days. Also knackered if i CAN say that from too much work and not enough sleep. LOL.
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I usually switch my computer off by about 6pm, and it isn't switched on again before 8am. Apparently using your computer etc into the evening can affect your sleep patterns. I go bed about 9 pm, and get up at 6pm. I have never been a night owl, even as a kid.
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Sensible as always floo.
However, if your sleep pattern is already disturbed, it is something to do! Other than reading or watching TV programmes that have been missed, iplayer etc.
Having said that, no-one is around much on forums after midnight.
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;D I think we like forum posting Rose. We wouldn't do it otherwise. I certainly enjoy posting on here.
Like I said, it would be a far more peaceful and satisfying life, and a far more enjoyable life, without the constant cascade of 'cut-and-pasted' Biblical nonsense on any and every subject under discussion.
Unfortunately as soon as Sassy gets going with her scissors and glue and dogmatic refusal to even consider that anyone else's point of view has any validity of any sort, all enjoyment and vestige of "discussion" disappears from that thread!
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She ain't here no more so you have your peace, be 8).
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I go bed about 9 pm, and get up at 6pm. I have never been a night owl, even as a kid.
21 hours sleep! Are you a cat?
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She ain't here no more so you have your peace, be 8).
Yeah, for 28 days!