Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Hope on May 31, 2016, 09:45:41 PM
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Odd laws - and not all archaic!!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-36389585
Wha' you think?
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This one banning drying washing outside is the most obnoxious of the lot:
The idea behind the rule at the luxury location is to prevent peoples' smalls fluttering in the breeze, which could detract from the look of the estate.
The developers, though, did fit every home with a washer-dryer to help the enforcement of the covenant.
So some brain donor thought it better to install umpteen notoriously energy-thirsty tumble dryers rather than allow clothes to dry for free with nothing more than sunshine and the breeze.
Genius move there.
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I'm staggered that doesn't fall foul of energy efficiency laws for new developments.
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The no-washing-hanging-out rule has been in place in lots of estates and apartment blocks for aeons. They don't all tumble dry, they have laundry rooms which are usually quite warm where things can be hung up until dry, the tumbling is just a finishing off to make the laundry softer. I'm sure lots of us do that when the weather is bad, maybe we don't have quite so much room :D, but the idea of everything being dried in a tumble drier, wet from the washing machine, is very eco unfriendly. It would take forever, domestic tumble driers do not have the capacity nor the power of those in professional/industrial laundries (including laundrettes).
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Some silly-bugger brought in a law forcing shops to charge 5p for a plastic bag.
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Some silly-bugger brought in a law forcing shops to charge 5p for a plastic bag.
I was sceptical about that one, but, on the whole, it seems to be working out fine.
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There was a load of daft rules about it being ok to give bags for free if they had certain food in them, but retailers have taken no notice as far as I can tell and charge anyway.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-34346309
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I was sceptical about that one, but, on the whole, it seems to be working out fine.
Organised people who go out to do a planned shop generally take their own heavy duty bags - that's fine, but those of us who are less than well organised or end up doing an unplanned shop often don't. In the past we received free lightweight bags that were useful as mini bin liners or just for collecting general rubbish. Now we have to pay for a much heavier bag that seems too good to use as a rubbish sack, but you end up with so many of the sodding things that that's what they become - with the result that I estimate I am now sending roughly twice the weight of plastic to landfill as before.
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I was sceptical about that one, but, on the whole, it seems to be working out fine.
Not for me it isn't, for much the same reasons that L. A. has just mentioned. The bin in my kitchen is one of that kind that attaches to the inside of a cupboard door, a plastic frame over which you hook the handles of a carrier bag so that the bag itself forms the bin. That's as good as useless now.
And the notion behind all this - that fewer plastic carrier bags is helpful to the environment - is, given the untold tons of pollution pumped into the world every single day by countries such as China, laughable.
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The biggest myth is the idea that cotton bags are greener. They aren't, unless they are made from recycled fabric.
I usually remember my decent bags (the 10p ones) but when I don't I take the 5p ones which do work well as bin liners, as LA says.
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There was a load of daft rules about it being ok to give bags for free if they had certain food in them, but retailers have taken no notice as far as I can tell and charge anyway.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-34346309
My mother was a Victorian, literally and she thought clothes needed to be aired as she called it, in effect the house had various clothes hanging up every where especially in inclement weather; I'm sure this airing period lasted for about three weeks per washed item and as I had two sisters living at home at the time this airing involved a copious amounts of knickers hanging about everywhere as well as a load of the other stuff.
I can remember thinking when I left home there would be no way I would ever live anywhere and have all of this washing hanging around, nor is there now or ever will be again anywhere around where I have to live as long as I am able to do something about it.
I'm always in trouble for putting washing, when dry, away it drives me potty and reminds me of my lovely mother with her endless piles of washing hanging everywhere around the house.
I occasionally see there are still some people have those clothes airers that can be pulled up to the ceiling on a pulley, how anyone can live with those bloody things I've no idea, whenever I see one of them it passes through my mind how much I would like to gently smash the bloody thing up and carefully set light to the wooden hanging rails etc, other than that I don't mind them at all.
This post of mine could be an explanation for some of my behaviour in later life, I've had to suffer so much at the hands of my mother's washing when I was a youngster; sympathetic replies only please.
ippy
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Organised people who go out to do a planned shop generally take their own heavy duty bags - that's fine, but those of us who are less than well organised or end up doing an unplanned shop often don't.
Yes, I fall into the second category too. So what normally happens is I get charged an extra 5p or 10p on a shopping trip where I might have spent £20 or £30 or about 0.25%
In the past we received free lightweight bags that were useful as mini bin liners or just for collecting general rubbish. Now we have to pay for a much heavier bag that seems too good to use as a rubbish sack, but you end up with so many of the sodding things that that's what they become - with the result that I estimate I am now sending roughly twice the weight of plastic to landfill as before.
Or you could shell out the 5p and still have the small lightweight bags.
My nearest supermarket is a Morrisons who apparently made £3 million on the 5p bags last year, all of which went to charity.
http://www.morrisons-corporate.com/cr/our-carrier-bag-savings-in-the-uk/
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Or you could shell out the 5p and still have the small lightweight bags.
Why should we have to?
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Why should we have to?
Sorry, which clause is it in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights that entitles us to free shopping bags? I can't seem to find it.
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Odd laws - and not all archaic!!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-36389585
Wha' you think?
Really weird!
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The very very small market town nearest to me has about seven or eight shops, all of which have charged 20p for carrier bags for years, long before the law changed. Shoppers choose from three local charities to give their donations to. Mine usually goes to the local badger group.
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Sorry, which clause is it in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights that entitles us to free shopping bags? I can't seem to find it.
Hyperbole much? It has nothing to do with the UDHR. We all had free carrier bags until recently*. Every shopper seemed perfectly happy with that state of affairs.
* I don't mean that some shops didn't already charge for bags before the law change - Aldi always did, I believe, and no doubt plenty of others; however, there was always a choice to shop at those places or not.
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The annoying thing is that it's designed to prevent bags going into landfill, but they tax the ones that do biodegrade the same as the ones that don't.
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The annoying thing is that it's designed to prevent bags going into landfill, but they tax the ones that do biodegrade the same as the ones that don't.
That was at the back of my mind - instead of introducing this stupid law, they could have taken measures to encourage the use of biodegradable bags.
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Well if you want to be cynical you could look at it as a way of forcing the funding the charities that pick up the slack from government cuts.
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Well if you want to be cynical you could look at it as a way of forcing the funding the charities that pick up the slack from government cuts.
I suppose that the extra funds will allow them to build their telemarketing teams to hound the old and vulnerable.
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Hyperbole much? It has nothing to do with the UDHR. We all had free carrier bags until recently
As a courtesy, not a right.
Every shopper seemed perfectly happy with that state of affairs.
Of course they were: something for nothing.
I honestly don't understand why people are complaining about this: it adds a trivial amount of money to your weekly shopping bill and you have the choice not to pay for them by bringing your own bags with you. Against that, it is providing serious money to charities and a serious reduction in the usage of these bags.
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I suppose that the extra funds will allow them to build their telemarketing teams to hound the old and vulnerable.
... or, indeed, anybody.
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That was at the back of my mind - instead of introducing this stupid law, they could have taken measures to encourage the use of biodegradable bags.
It still costs energy to make biodegradable bags.
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I honestly don't understand why people are complaining about this: it adds a trivial amount of money to your weekly shopping bill and you have the choice not to pay for them by bringing your own bags with you. . . .
Because it's an unnecessary, and I would argue counter-productive, interference with the free market. If a trader want's to charge for a bag that's fine, if they feel it is a useful marketing strategy to give away free bags - that should be fine!
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... or, indeed, anybody.
But the old and vulnerable are by far the easiest targets.
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Yes, true.
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Dear Rhiannon,
Well if you want to be cynical you could look at it as a way of forcing the funding the charities that pick up the slack from government cuts.
Mr Cynical here!! I think something is going on, why is there a Ronald McDonald hospice attached to NHS hospitals, why does the NHS have its own lottery.
Tories are better than Houdini, they are doing it right in front of us, NHS! nevermind the NHS! what about the Referendum, my milk went off in the fridge yesterday, bloody Tories >:(
Gonnagle.
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I suppose that the extra funds will allow them to build their telemarketing teams to hound the old and vulnerable.
This is how Tesco distributes its grants and I don't see what's not to like.
http://www.tesco.com/carrier-bags/
Except it all feels like it's going to the kinds of things that used to be funded by local or national government.
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And the notion behind all this - that fewer plastic carrier bags is helpful to the environment - is, given the untold tons of pollution pumped into the world every single day by countries such as China, laughable.
And why are you going on about me killing your mum while Hitler is still alive..? ::)
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As an exercise, I have just weighed one of the 5p bags I recently bought - it was 30 grams - an old free bag weighs 5 grams.
Therefore, unless you use your 5p bag six times or more before throwing it away - you are sending more plastic to landfill than you were before this stupid law came in.
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Dear Rhiannon,
Except it all feels like it's going to the kinds of things that used to be funded by local or national government.
Yes, it don't sit right.
http://www.tesco.com/carrier-bags/
Proceeds generated from the charge, excluding VAT and reasonable costs, will be donated to local projects through our Bags of Help community grant scheme. We will be working Groundwork, an expert organisation, to help us do this.
In England, Scotland and Wales the proceeds generated from the sale of the bags will go to good causes, as set out by DEFRA (Department for Environment Food & Rural Affairs).
In Northern Ireland the proceeds of the 5p levy are paid to the Department of the Environment (DOE). The money raised is used to deliver local projects to improve the environment.
VAT and reasonable costs, so not all of the 5p goes to charity and government bodies are involved, those Tories are good, wonder if they have a lifetime membership to the magic circle.
Gonnagle.
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Exactly, Gonners. Smoke and mirrors.
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Because it's an unnecessary, and I would argue counter-productive,
How is it counterproductive?
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How is it counterproductive?
Because after 6 months, carrier bag consumption had fallen by 75-80% (depending on the supermarket in question).
This would suggest that the production of carrier bags would fall by a similar percentage. So carrier bag manufacturing has counterproduced by 75% (approx).
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Because after 6 months, carrier bag consumption had fallen by 75-80% (depending on the supermarket in question).
This would suggest that the production of carrier bags would fall by a similar percentage. So carrier bag manufacturing has counterproduced by 75% (approx).
I'm sorry, I don't understand. The whole point is to reduce the amount of carrier bags being produced and it's working.
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I'm sorry, I don't understand. The whole point is to reduce the amount of carrier bags being produced and it's working.
Yeah. It was a sort of joke based on the idea that a fall in production could be described as a 'counterproduction'.
Well.
It amused me.
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How is it counterproductive?
See #30
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I'm sure lots of us do that when the weather is bad, maybe we don't have quite so much room :D, but the idea of everything being dried in a tumble drier, wet from the washing machine, is very eco unfriendly.
We have never had, let alone used a tumble-dryer. Even in the dead of winter, we will often put our washing on the line outside, even if only to allow the wind to get rid of some of water. Came home from work some years back to find all the clothes had frozen rigid!!
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I was sceptical about that one, but, on the whole, it seems to be working out fine.
Ironically, when the law was brought in here in Wales, the use of plastic bags went UP for about 3 years in our village - because the half-dozen shops all agreed to donate the 5p they charged to the local Voluntary Concern group, which runs weekly shopping trips and other transport provision, a befriending service, a community club and a good neighbour scheme - all for the elderly, disabled and otherwise disadvantaged in the community. It seems to have levelled back off now, perhaps dropping below the original numbers within the last year or so.
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Not for me it isn't, for much the same reasons that L. A. has just mentioned. The bin in my kitchen is one of that kind that attaches to the inside of a cupboard door, a plastic frame over which you hook the handles of a carrier bag so that the bag itself forms the bin. That's as good as useless now.
And the notion behind all this - that fewer plastic carrier bags is helpful to the environment - is, given the untold tons of pollution pumped into the world every single day by countries such as China, laughable.
We have the same type of kitchen bin, Shakes, and we don't find this a problem. There are so many different types of lightweight plastic bags nowadays that my wife never seems to be without a handful, and we have never paid for them since the system was introduced. As for L.A.'s comment about not planning, I simply have 2 or three 'for life' plastic bags, or increasingly material bags in my day-pack/briefcase/car glove compartment/boot/bike panniers/coat pockets so that they are available whenever. It isn't a case of 'planning', just common sense. Mind you, I suppose the fact that I have done this for 30 or 40 years anyway means that I haven't had to drastically change my habits.
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Why should we have to?
Why should our wildlife have to put up with the mess and danger that such items create? Similarly, why should future generations be lumped with stuff that breaks down very slowly, pollutes our environment and can get into the food chain to the ultimate detriment of human beings?
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Why should our wildlife have to put up with the mess and danger that such items create?
That - and a very great deal else beside - could be sorted by having fewer people in the world. If impact on wildlife is a concern, the single biggest service you can perform is not to create yet more people who wilfully/consciously or not destroy their habitats through one means or another.
Was impact on wildlife one of the reasons given for bringing in the charge?
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Mr Cynical here!! I think something is going on, why is there a Ronald McDonald hospice attached to NHS hospitals, why does the NHS have its own lottery.
Tories are better than Houdini, they are doing it right in front of us, NHS! nevermind the NHS! ...
Gonners, NHS trusts - at least south of your border - have had trust and group lotteries for years. The first national one (which I accept wasn't very successful) was introduced in 1988, but many individual health boards had their own long before that.
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See #30
Is this true? Why would they increase the weight of the bags? If the 5p bags are actually reusable - maybe they should charge more? We have our own bags or the "bags for life" type.
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That - and a very great deal else beside - could be sorted by having fewer people in the world. If impact on wildlife is a concern, the single biggest service you can perform is not to create yet more people who wilfully/consciously or not destroy their habitats through one means or another.
Was impact on wildlife one of the reasons given for bringing in the charge?
They could tax children?
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They could tax children?
Or take the logically prior step of taxing those who produce them ;)
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Is this true? Why would they increase the weight of the bags? If the 5p bags are actually reusable - maybe they should charge more? We have our own bags or the "bags for life" type.
I don't know why they do it - maybe everyone just feels that they have to offer value for money if they are charging.
'Bags for Life' are one of those ideas that seem great in principle but don't work too well in practice (well not for me anyway). I have bought several and most have ended up down the tip.
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If I live long enough to see out every bag for life I've got, I'll end up at 800.
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I find they end up being used for anything but shopping - swimming kit, trainers, change of clothes...
When I've been using them in Tesco and found one with a hole the cashier has offered to replace it for free.
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As an exercise, I have just weighed one of the 5p bags I recently bought - it was 30 grams - an old free bag weighs 5 grams.
Therefore, unless you use your 5p bag six times or more before throwing it away - you are sending more plastic to landfill than you were before this stupid law came in.
The 5p bags I get from Morrisons are exactly the same as the old free bags they used to hand out.
Anyway, the point of the 5p thing is not to make people reuse the 5p bags but to try to stop the from using 5p bags at all. In that respect it is successful since the usage has unquestionable decreased significantly.
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I've noticed a difference in Tesco. The new 5p bags are definitely stronger. I think they've stopped using/selling the biodegradable ones if the appearance and texture is anything to go by.
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That - and a very great deal else beside - could be sorted by having fewer people in the world.
When people say that, I always respond with "ok you go first".
The problem with "we need fewer people" is that, while it is true, there is no palatable way to get there.
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When people say that, I always respond with "ok you go first".
The problem with "we need fewer people" is that, while it is true, there is no palatable way to get there.
The problem with that is that the alternative is a damned sight less palatable. If people won't eat the carrot, they'll end up with the stick; given what's at stake, it won't do simply to throw up the hands and moan: "Too late! Oh dear, never mind ..."
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I've noticed a difference in Tesco. The new 5p bags are definitely stronger. I think they've stopped using/selling the biodegradable ones if the appearance and texture is anything to go by.
... which if true suggests that they're charging for an environmentally unfriendly item.
Remind me - exactly what was this plastic bag charge for, again?
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The problem with that is that the alternative is a damned sight less palatable. If people won't eat the carrot, they'll end up with the stick; given what's at stake, it won't do simply to throw up the hands and moan: "Too late! Oh dear, never mind ..."
It's something I struggle with. I have produced my three good little taxpayers but I can't pretend that's a good thing for me to have done, even though I believe they are great people. Why should I think my kids are the 'right' sort to be born and others not?
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... which if true suggests that they're charging for an environmentally unfriendly item.
Remind me - exactly what was this plastic bag charge for, again?
I can't find any information for definite. I can only go by how the bags feel and appear, which is very different.
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The 5p bags I get from Morrisons are exactly the same as the old free bags they used to hand out.
Possibly Morrison are the same, a great many shops sell thicker bags.
Anyway, the point of the 5p thing is not to make people reuse the 5p bags but to try to stop the from using 5p bags at all.
Which is never going to happen in the real world.
In that respect it is successful since the usage has unquestionable decreased significantly.
Interesting use of the word 'successful' - the numbers might be down but I'd wager that the total weight is up.
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When I've been using them in Tesco and found one with a hole the cashier has offered to replace it for free.
Err.. yes, that is the point. You buy one, then can replace it free whenever needed. It's not a single bag that is supposed to last a lifetime!
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Err.. yes, that is the point. You buy one, then can replace it free whenever needed. It's not a single bag that is supposed to last a lifetime!
Yes, I do know that. It was just nice to see that it really does work as it's intended to. I wouldn't dream of asking for a replacement tbh.
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I've noticed a difference in Tesco. The new 5p bags are definitely stronger. I think they've stopped using/selling the biodegradable ones if the appearance and texture is anything to go by.
The old free bags were complete rubbish :) If they are charging I suppose they can make them stronger - but could/should also make them biodegradable.
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The old free bags were complete rubbish :) If they are charging I suppose they can make them stronger - but could/should also make them biodegradable.
Yes, the old ones didn't make it through one shop a lot of the time. But as they were going to biodegrade I guess that didn't matter.
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Err.. yes, that is the point. You buy one, then can replace it free whenever needed. It's not a single bag that is supposed to last a lifetime!
I understand that is the theory - in practice you never have the right bag with you for that particular store (if you have any bag at all) - then you discover a pile of them tucked away under the stairs and decide they might as well be used for rubbish.
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Just as an aside ...
... but aren't the largest group of people who now buy plastic bags dog owners?
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Dear Hope,
Gonners, NHS trusts - at least south of your border - have had trust and group lotteries for years. The first national one (which I accept wasn't very successful) was introduced in 1988, but many individual health boards had their own long before that.
Well that is something I didn't know but that is not the point me and I think Rhiannon were trying to make, it seems that more and more of what the government should be tackling is being done by charity, it could just be the way I see it, the one that sticks out in my mind, child abuse ( can't remember where in the country ) but Barnado's was called in, then again I think that was a good call, Barnado's have been doing this for years, they have the organisation and logistics behind them.
But Ronald McDonald hospices on NHS property, it just doesn't sit well with me, and I suppose my anti Tory mind set, what I do know, for a fact, the NHS is not being funded properly, or could just be my conspiracy theory working overtime. :o
Gonnagle.
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But Ronald McDonald hospices on NHS property, it just doesn't sit well with me, and I suppose my anti Tory mind set, what I do know, for a fact, the NHS is not being funded properly, or could just be my conspiracy theory working overtime. :o
I'd have thought that by Scottish standards, McDonalds represented something of a pinnacle in healthy eating.
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Dear Mods,
Can you have a quiet word with old Lapsed please, nothing to harsh, stick him in that cupboard with the Lion ::) ::)
Gonnagle.
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Dear Mods,
Can you have a quiet word with old Lapsed please, nothing to harsh, stick him in that cupboard with the Lion ::) ::)
Gonnagle.
Yes - as if there's anything worng with deep fried Mars bars anyway :P
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Yes - as if there's anything worng with deep fried Mars bars anyway :P
MEGA YUCK!
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Dear Trent,
Tis funny :P I am trying to make old Berational read up on what a Myth is, sadly the old mars bar Myth, there is a truth in there somewhere :o :o
Gonnagle.
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I'd heard it was nonsense too, Gonners.
I'd heard it was deep fried curly wurlies.
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Dear Trent,
Tis funny :P I am trying to make old Berational read up on what a Myth is, sadly the old mars bar Myth, there is a truth in there somewhere :o :o
Gonnagle.
I understand myth, you clearly do not understand cherry picking and spin.
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The problem with that is that the alternative is a damned sight less palatable.
No it isn't. The population of the Earth will stabilise naturally during the next century and there is no obvious reason why they can't all be supported with careful management of resources. The real problem is how to get everybody to understand we need to carefully manage resources.
If people won't eat the carrot,
The carrot you are talking about is us killing the excess population.
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Which is never going to happen in the real world.
Except it is happening.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-35694164
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Except it is happening.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-35694164
You seem to have missed the phrase:
He also blamed "aggressive overseas competition".
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Yes - as if there's anything worng with deep fried Mars bars anyway :P
I understand that to be fully enjoyed it should be accompanied by a bottle of Buckfast (or two)
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Dear Lapsed,
Yes, very true, a deep fried mars bar can only be appreciated with a fine glass of Buckie, served at room temperature, but a deep fried curly wurly should only be accompanied by a chilled glass of Buckie, ya stereotyping English person that you are, mods suspend his ass, preferably from Tower Bridge ::) ::)
Gonnagle.
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Dear Lapsed,
Yes, very true, a deep fried mars bar can only be appreciated with a fine glass of Buckie, served at room temperature, but a deep fried curly wurly should only be accompanied by a chilled glass of Buckie, ya stereotyping English person that you are, mods suspend his ass, preferably from Tower Bridge ::) ::)
Gonnagle.
Sorry G :(
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No it isn't. The population of the Earth will stabilise naturally during the next century
Will it? Congratulations on developing psychic powers, must be nice for you.
The carrot you are talking about is us killing the excess population.
No. The carrot is trying to encourage people to want to have fewer children.
The stick is measures that are enforced on people that they don't willingly choose in order to keep down an out-of-control population.
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Dear Lapsed,
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Gonnagle.
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The carrot is trying to encourage people to want to have fewer children.
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Yes.
And the best way to do this is by ensuring that all girls receive an adequate education.
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You seem to have missed the phrase:
He also blamed "aggressive overseas competition".
Ha ha. I knew somebody would try that one on. Did you not bother to read the sentence before which stated:
Managing director Michael Flynn said it was mainly due to "the English bag legislation and corresponding impact on customer and retailer demand"
[My bolding]
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Will it? Congratulations on developing psychic powers, must be nice for you.
No psychic powers needed. Population has already stabilised in most developed countries. It wouldn't be going up in the UK without immigration.
No. The carrot is trying to encourage people to want to have fewer children.
Always a good idea. How did it go in China and India?
The stick is measures that are enforced on people that they don't willingly choose in order to keep down an out-of-control population.
Population control measures don't seem to work or have other unwanted side effects. It would be far better to manage resources to cope.
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Dear Trent,
Tis funny :P I am trying to make old Berational read up on what a Myth is, sadly the old mars bar Myth, there is a truth in there somewhere :o :o
Gonnagle.
Frying a Mars bar might enhance the work, rest and play ingredients, I wouldn't know. My husband goes to Mars regularly (no word of a lie), and has never brought me back a Mars bar as a souvenir. Mean old git >:(.
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They aren't very nice, deep fried or not.
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Ha ha. I knew somebody would try that one on. Did you not bother to read the sentence before which stated:
[My bolding]
But then there is the quote:
One worker told BBC Radio Lancashire they believed the legislation had a "slight but not a massive impact" on the business, which has been operating since 1975 and was taken over by Cheshire-based packaging firm Intelipac three years ago.
either way, if foreign competition was a factor, it means that those foreign firms must still be very much in production!
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They aren't very nice, deep fried or not.
And they are very small, too. In their bid to be able to continue with their occasional "4 for £1" offers Mars has continually reduced the size. Tesco and Lidl both do copycat products that are almost indistinguishable fro Mars Bars but cheaper, too.
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And they are very small, too. In their bid to be able to continue with their occasional "4 for £1" offers Mars has continually reduced the size. Tesco and Lidl both do copycat products that are almost indistinguishable fro Mars Bars but cheaper, too.
So I now know where to buy bigger, cheaper versions of something I don't like. :D
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What's wrong with the Welshman and longbow law?
ippy