Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => Politics & Current Affairs => Topic started by: Ricky Spanish on June 04, 2016, 11:05:28 AM
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I know most of you have no opinion, so won't vote in case it offends someone.
But give it a go.. I have made this poll anonymous:
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Weird range of options ... what does a "whishy [sic] washy liberal" have to do with the issue of remaining in or leaving the European Union?
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We have already voted to remain.
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Remain. If we leave it won't be as it was before 1973, it will be as it was before 1066, with us as a small irrelevance on the edge of Europe.
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Remain. If we leave it won't be as it was before 1973, it will be as it was before 1066, with us as a small irrelevance on the edge of Europe.
We are a small irrelevance, imo!
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It's a no-brainer:
If we vote for Brexit we will be offered a deal that will be similar to Switzerland and Norway which of course includes freedom of movement. If we accept we will be in virtually the same position as now, but with some additional restrictions on certain kinds of trade - and we won't have any say in running the show.
If we were to reject this, we will not have the free access to the EU market and Britain will no longer be an attractive location for manufactures to serve the EU market, and this would have a serious impact on our economy and employment.
Remain is the only sane option.
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Ammended because Steve finds "whishy" offensive to his "sensibility's"..
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It is wishy without an h!
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It is wishy without an h!
Well no ... it has one h in it ...
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Well no ... it has one h in it ...
Whoops! :D
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Remain.
I agree with L.A.'s analysis.
In addition, I own property in France, which is a borderline basket case with Marine Le Pen's extreme right wing National Front enjoying considerable support from the French people. She may perceive Brexit as giving her policies some kind of legitimacy and French homes for French people may result in separate, higher, property taxes for nonFrench second home owners or even snatching the houses from their current owners for the benefit of homeless French citizens.
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It's a no-brainer:
If we vote for Brexit we will be offered a deal that will be similar to Switzerland and Norway which of course includes freedom of movement. If we accept we will be in virtually the same position as now, but with some additional restrictions on certain kinds of trade - and we won't have any say in running the show.
If we were to reject this, we will not have the free access to the EU market and Britain will no longer be an attractive location for manufactures to serve the EU market, and this would have a serious impact on our economy and employment.
Remain is the only sane option.
Yes but some are'' up for it'' and that's important for 'the lads'. It's their ''pride''.....and at the end of the day it's just a bit of Banter.
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There's an identical poll currently running on Digital Spy which so far has attracted 1156 votes.
63.32% for Leave.
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Why does this poll have a closing date two weeks after the date of the referendum?
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Remain.
I agree with L.A.'s analysis.
In addition, I own property in France, which is a borderline basket case with Marine Le Pen's extreme right wing National Front enjoying considerable support from the French people. She may perceive Brexit as giving her policies some kind of legitimacy and French homes for French people may result in separate, higher, property taxes for nonFrench second home owners or even snatching the houses from their current owners for the benefit of homeless French citizens.
There would certainly be 'knock-on' effects across EU countries, difficult to predict this kind of stuff, but we certainly wouldn't be 'flavour of the month'.
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Perhaps it's better to be a part of the Fourth Reich than compete with it, who knows.
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Can't vote because there's no 'No clue what's best, who do you think I am, Mystic fucking Meg?' button.
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Maybe the question on the ballot should be :
Do you want to 'cut off your nose to spite your face'?
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Maybe the question on the ballot should be :
Do you want to 'cut off your nose to spite your face'?
Thank goodness they have serious-minded, professional people to do this ballot business.
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Dear Rhiannon,
Can't vote because there's no 'No clue what's best, who do you think I am, Mystic fucking Meg?' button.
Vote to remain, trust me I am not a politician :P
Gonnagle.
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Perhaps it's better to be a part of the Fourth Reich than compete with it, who knows.
A bunch of bureaucrats working on product standards and trade regulations does not really constitute a threat to world peace.
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Perhaps it's better to be a part of the Fourth Reich than compete with it, who knows.
Ekim, I'm not sure if your comment was posted in jest or if you know the history of the EU.
The Nazis and facists who founded the EU and their influence today:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Nf5KeC4dAs
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There's an identical poll currently running on Digital Spy which so far has attracted 1156 votes.
63.32% for Leave.
So.......... 63.32% of people who would be happy with a laptop, a KFC, a box of tissues and their right hands are for leaving.
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Ekim, I'm not sure if your comment was posted in jest or if you know the history of the EU.
The Nazis and facists who founded the EU and their influence today:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Nf5KeC4dAs
Drivel. And you can't even spell fascist.
Most of the founders of the EU fought the Nazis. Your ignorance of that and your moronic pissing on the graves of those who were killed by the Nazis would make me me vomit, if I thought you had the slightest grasp of history.
But then again you have already posted bits of your lunatic anti Semitism about the Rothschilds and your dog whistle 'bankensteins'
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EU history isn't the most fascinating subject but even I know it was founded with the ideal of preventing history repeating itself, by people who wanted to end the global wars that Europe had been spewing.
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Whoops! :D
Don't you mean, "Woops", floo ? ;)
I'm voting to stay in. I think my husband will too, he wavers a bit.
My son, on the other hand, is unwavering and passionately miltant about staying in, goes on about the whys and wherefores endlessly.
ZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzz
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Drivel. And you can't even spell fascist.
Most of the founders of the EU fought the Nazis. Your ignorance of that and your moronic pissing on the graves of those who were killed by the Nazis would make me me vomit, if I thought you had the slightest grasp of history.
But then again you have already posted bits of your lunatic anti Semitism about the Rothschilds and your dog whistle 'bankensteins'
To be fair, NS, I do t thing SP knows she's being antisemitic or disrespectful, she's just very gullible.
After all, she thinks Satan made her a pantheist.
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Can't vote because there's no 'No clue what's best, who do you think I am, Mystic fucking Meg?' button.
It isn't asking what the outcome will be, it is asking what YOU intend to vote.
It requires you not (and to quote) Mystic fucking Meg?
button because( to quote) Mystic fucking Meg?
won't be deciding your vote for you...
( Re: Who's for IN and who's for OUT: )
See doesn't require (quote) a Mystic fucking Meg? button
The thread is asking who is in and who is out. You can make that decision without Mystic Meg.
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Maybe the question on the ballot should be :
Do you want to 'cut off your nose to spite your face'?
Voting to stay in would be doing just that.
You see you have property/land in france that would not be affected.
The rules for voting means that those who live abroad cannot vote.
Or are they changing that because you have to reside here and register from an address.
Hence homeless people will not get a vote.
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It isn't asking what the outcome will be, it is asking what YOU intend to vote.
It requires you not (and to quote) button because( to quote) won't be deciding your vote for you... See doesn't require (quote) a The thread is asking who is in and who is out. You can make that decision without Mystic Meg.
I know it's asking me how I intend to vote, Sass.
Oh blimey. Right. Let's put this as simply as I can.
I don't know which way to vote because a) I don't know who is lying and who isn't and b) the best outcome is so unpredictable that I'm finding it hard to decide which was is best. Therefore although I lean towards Remain simply out of caution, I don't know how I will vote because it's impossible to foresee all the different permutations and complications that either Brexit or Remain could bring about. If I had psychic abilities then maybe I cold, but as there's no such thing...it's a roll of the dice.
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Voting to stay in would be doing just that.
You see you have property/land in france that would not be affected.
The rules for voting means that those who live abroad cannot vote.
Or are they changing that because you have to reside here and register from an address.
Hence homeless people will not get a vote.
I don't think that is my post you are referring to Sass, sadly I don't have any property in France :(
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Perhaps the forum could have a whip round for you, LA. ;)
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Voting to stay in would be doing just that.
You see you have property/land in france that would not be affected.
The rules for voting means that those who live abroad cannot vote.
Or are they changing that because you have to reside here and register from an address.
Hence homeless people will not get a vote.
It was I, not LA, who admitted to owning property in France.
Your confabulation above indicates that you have not the slightest understanding of the situation. People who no longer reside in the United Kingdom retain the right to vote in UK elections for 15 years following their permanent departure.
I reside permanently in the United Kingdom.
Voting to leave the EU would be a catastrophe for the UK. Among other things, manufacturing and service companies will relocate in mainland Europe - a likely candidate being the Nissan Motor Company. It employs a couple of thousand people directly but also several thousand more through parts suppliers and other service providers. It will leave because it is controlled (through a 42% share ownership) by Renault who will look to rationalising the manufacture of both marques. I also find it difficult to imagine that EADS will continue Airbus wing manufacture in Bristol and North Wales.
I fail to see how brute surgery of these kinds will enhance the national physiognomy.
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So that will be the "Don't give a fuck because "I'm alright Jack"." option then!
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Voting to leave the EU would be a catastrophe for the UK. Among other things, manufacturing and service companies will relocate in mainland Europe - a likely candidate being the Nissan Motor Company. It employs a couple of thousand people directly but also several thousand more through parts suppliers and other service providers. It will leave because it is controlled (through a 42% share ownership) by Renault who will look to rationalising the manufacture of both marques. I also find it difficult to imagine that EADS will continue Airbus wing manufacture in Bristol and North Wales.
Further to all the arguments about our national well being, we need to consider the bigger picture of European wellbeing and global wellbeing, and I see that a Brexit would fuel nationalist tendencies that are already growing in many parts of Europe, and it was to avoid forever the horrors of twentieth century European nationalism that the EU was formed. If we all start putting narrow self interest ahead of the greater good that is a regressive step of a nation with a very short memory.
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To be fair, NS, I do t thing SP knows she's being antisemitic or disrespectful, she's just very gullible.
After all, she thinks Satan made her a pantheist.
The vast majority of people who are anti Semitic don't think they are.
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The vast majority of people who are anti Semitic don't think they are.
You may well be right, NS. But given that SP also believes there are 'real' as well as fake crop circles I think 'gullible' still fits here.
Going off topic but one of my great uncles marched with Mosley's blackshirts. Had no clue what they were about until he realised they were going to attack Jewish homes and businesses, at which point he and a couple of his mates turned on the blackshirts closest to them. And promptly for the crap beaten out of them of course.
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I covered in my post that because I think SP's grasp of history is tenuous, due to believing stuff from websites made up of charlatanry and moonshine, I was not quite as disgusted with her personally as I might be. Doesn't make the views themselves any more palatable, or mean they should be given an greater tolerance.
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So that will be the "Don't give a fuck because "I'm alright Jack"." option then!
Is this supposed to be irony or sarcasm?
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You may well be right, NS. But given that SP also believes there are 'real' as well as fake crop circles I think 'gullible' still fits here.
Not only that but she also appears to believe that YouTube is an archive of record and that its contents, simply by virtue of being there, are veridical.
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Perhaps the forum could have a whip round for you, LA. ;)
What a kind thought ::)
This year we have to make do with a week in a 'Holidays in the Sun' mobile home near Carnac.
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Going off topic but one of my great uncles marched with Mosley's blackshirts. Had no clue what they were about until he realised they were going to attack Jewish homes and businesses, at which point he and a couple of his mates turned on the blackshirts closest to them. And promptly for the crap beaten out of them of course.
My granddad did the same in the 30s.
He had no time for fascists, he just needed a clean shirt.
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Oh, wow, I better get on here and defend myself.
I'm not gullible as those discussing me seem to think.... I just happen to research and look further than the media and what is to be found in mainstream history. That's the first time I've posted a video re the EU.... and did anyone actually watch it.... or understand it?
If you dig deep you can find out that all wars are about money... and this is also what the EU is about as Jack Knave has tried and tried to explain.... all contrived by the same group of people. If they cared about the man-on the-street meetings wouldn't be held in secret and MEPs would have more power.
Re ant-Semitism: I am not anti-Semitic but do not agree with Zionism as it is a political agenda... the Zionists actually use the term anti-Semitism in their favour and are not a true representation of the Jewish people.
http://www.truetorahjews.org/antisemitism
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Re ant-Semitism: I am not anti-Semitic but do not agree with Zionism as it is a political agenda...
I refer you to post #35.
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A bunch of bureaucrats working on product standards and trade regulations does not really constitute a threat to world peace.
The trouble with bureaucracies is that they grow and grow feeding on ever more regulations with an increasing cost to taxpayers and a burgeoning and complex legal system beyond the scope of ordinary people to challenge. I would say that the threat is not so much to world peace (if ever such a concept comes about), but it can lead to internal civil unrest, especially if it is perceived that there is no way to change the regulations other than by force.
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Ekim, I'm not sure if your comment was posted in jest or if you know the history of the EU.
The Nazis and facists who founded the EU and their influence today:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Nf5KeC4dAs
Slightly tongue in cheek as we do seem to hear that Germany is the dominant power in the EU and seems to be calling the shots rather than firing them.
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Oh, wow, I better get on here and defend myself.
I'm not gullible as those discussing me seem to think.... I just happen to research and look further than the media and what is to be found in mainstream history. That's the first time I've posted a video re the EU.... and did anyone actually watch it.... or understand it?
If you dig deep you can find out that all wars are about money... and this is also what the EU is about as Jack Knave has tried and tried to explain.... all contrived by the same group of people. If they cared about the man-on the-street meetings wouldn't be held in secret and MEPs would have more power.
Re ant-Semitism: I am not anti-Semitic but do not agree with Zionism as it is a political agenda... the Zionists actually use the term anti-Semitism in their favour and are not a true representation of the Jewish people.
http://www.truetorahjews.org/antisemitism
SP, someone convinced you Satan was leading you astray. That's gullible.
It also meant someone took advantage of your vulnerability to stoke their own ego, but hey.
Sorry, going wildly off topic.
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Nobody convinced me Satan was leading me astray.... I recognised that myself. Please stop representing me.
Now, in an effort to get back on topic...
The trouble with bureaucracies is that they grow and grow feeding on ever more regulations with an increasing cost to taxpayers and a burgeoning and complex legal system beyond the scope of ordinary people to challenge. I would say that the threat is not so much to world peace (if ever such a concept comes about), but it can lead to internal civil unrest, especially if it is perceived that there is no way to change the regulations other than by force.
Good post, Ekim. This is why we have to think of what the future could hold for our children and grandchildren.
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Nobody convinced me Satan was leading me astray.... I recognised that myself. Please stop representing me.
That makes all the difference. Not gullible at all, then.
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The irony is if you think Satan does not exist you are the one showing gullibility.
..... and the derail continues.
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The irony is if you think Satan does not exist you are the one showing gullibility.
Coming from somebody who never saw a loony tunes dingbat conspiracy theory she didn't like, the irony of that statement is of near-lethal proportions.
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http://www.religionethics.co.uk/index.php?topic=10858.100
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Well remembered.
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The trouble with bureaucracies is that they grow and grow feeding on ever more regulations with an increasing cost to taxpayers and a burgeoning and complex legal system beyond the scope of ordinary people to challenge. I would say that the threat is not so much to world peace (if ever such a concept comes about), but it can lead to internal civil unrest, especially if it is perceived that there is no way to change the regulations other than by force.
This seems true wrt. the EU institutions, especially as they have been able to play the member nations off against each other. However the answer is for the people to take back democratic control of the institutions, claiming subsidiarity when appropriate.
The member states need to cooperate - not only focus on their own best interests. Problems need to be explained and solved, not covered up.
If the EU breaks up I can't really see any better organisation rising to replace it.
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Well remembered.
I don't like being accused of misrepresentation. I'm not the most patient of people around this kind of nonsense but I don't lie.
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I know it's asking me how I intend to vote, Sass.
Oh blimey. Right. Let's put this as simply as I can.
I don't know which way to vote because a) I don't know who is lying and who isn't and b) the best outcome is so unpredictable that I'm finding it hard to decide which was is best. Therefore although I lean towards Remain simply out of caution, I don't know how I will vote because it's impossible to foresee all the different permutations and complications that either Brexit or Remain could bring about. If I had psychic abilities then maybe I cold, but as there's no such thing...it's a roll of the dice.
Had absolutely nothing to do with what you originally wrote.
It is simple for myself... Do I want to continue seeing my country flooded with foreigners bringing goodness know what diseases whilst our own suffer? Do I want to see countries responsible in the EU for child prostitution and slave prostitution coming here with the ability to kidnap children or young women and ship them off their foreign brothels and killing people to take power on the streets here?
Being in Europe puts us all at risk when gates open. We pay 35 billions a week and that would be 140 billion a month.
keep that within our own budget for hospitals etc We will be fine.
300,000 in one year and Goodness knows how many when they are not watching.
No, even if it means closing the channel tunnel it is time we came out of Europe.
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I have a certain tendency towards Leave, partly just to penetrate Cameron in the bottom, but then again, when I see the Leave campaigners looking like an awayday with Community Services, and also, the barely hidden racism going on, I swing back to Remain.
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Had absolutely nothing to do with what you originally wrote.
It is simple for myself... Do I want to continue seeing my country flooded with foreigners bringing goodness know what diseases whilst our own suffer? Do I want to see countries responsible in the EU for child prostitution and slave prostitution coming here with the ability to kidnap children or young women and ship them off their foreign brothels and killing people to take power on the streets here?
Being in Europe puts us all at risk when gates open. We pay 35 billions a week and that would be 140 billion a month.
keep that within our own budget for hospitals etc We will be fine.
300,000 in one year and Goodness knows how many when they are not watching.
No, even if it means closing the channel tunnel it is time we came out of Europe.
Apart from the ludicrously bizarre figures, (35 billion a week being 100 times the questionable claim being made by the Leave camp) this post stinks of racism! Surely to a Christian there is no such thing as foreigners?
And that"s leaving aside the laughable idea that most people come in via the Chunnel.
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Yeah, but it's Christian racism. This is a higher class of racism altogether, and all in the best possible taste.
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Ditto Christian lying. Michael Gove's shit hot at it.
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Ditto Christian lying. Michael Gove's shit hot at it.
There was a time I knew Michael quite well. That was a long long time ago in a galaxy far far away
He seems to have been replaced by a body snatcher, I think it might be called Ambition
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Funnily enough I was just thinking of his praise of Polish workers and how they benefitted the UK. But that was ten years or so ago, before he mutated.
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This seems true wrt. the EU institutions, especially as they have been able to play the member nations off against each other. However the answer is for the people to take back democratic control of the institutions, claiming subsidiarity when appropriate.
The member states need to cooperate - not only focus on their own best interests. Problems need to be explained and solved, not covered up.
If the EU breaks up I can't really see any better organisation rising to replace it.
Yes, it's must be quite difficult to weld such an institute together with so many well entrenched national and economic interests. It will probably take a long time and just like the so called United Nations Organisation there will be many opportunities to nullify its effectiveness.
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I don't like being accused of misrepresentation. I'm not the most patient of people around this kind of nonsense but I don't lie.
Read my post on my experience again.... and see who's lying. Quote:
At the same time I was drawn to pantheism which (my own belief, now) is all part of the deception. Lucifer will do anything to draw folk away from the knowledge of the true Creator, Ahayah (God).
Next paragraph:
At some point, I met someone online that was a great help in showing me how I had been deceived.
Yes, I did meet someone who helped me to see how I was deceived, but regards Satan leading me astray, as I say, I recognised that myself.
And to Shaker: If your talking about the Mandela Effect, it's a psyop..... all nonsense.
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Like Shaker's deluded about Satan not existing?
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Read my post on my experience again.... and see who's lying. Quote:
At the same time I was drawn to pantheism which (my own belief, now) is all part of the deception. Lucifer will do anything to draw folk away from the knowledge of the true Creator, Ahayah (God).
Next paragraph:
At some point, I met someone online that was a great help in showing me how I had been deceived.
Yes, I did meet someone who helped me to see how I was deceived, but regards Satan leading me astray, as I say, I recognised that myself.
And to Shaker: If your talking about the Mandela Effect, it's a psyop..... all nonsense.
I recognised myself that the Tower of England was a great buy when I met someone who persuaded me to give them a million pounds.
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I'd been into New Age for quite sometime and others had tried to show me the deception. This time something was different. But it's very hard to explain to anyone that is not spiritual.
Anyway.... are we going to continue to derail and troll this thread?
Well, I'm not.
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Yes, SP. I'm not remotely spiritual.
Listen, feel free to think I'm the bitch queen pagan from hell. It's no problem to me. Get your message board mates to pray for me, they'll love it.
I don't care what other people believe generally. Chakras, Angels, crop circles, the resurrection - who cares, so long as it floats the boats. But the beliefs you now hold on Satan are dangerous - to you more than anyone. And your antisemitism - intended or otherwise - fuels something that is spreading actoss Europe ike a cancer - if it ever went away - and it is scaring people like my Jewish friends.
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I'd been into New Age for quite sometime and others had tried to show me the deception. This time something was different. But it's very hard to explain to anyone that is not spiritual.
Anyway.... are we going to continue to derail and troll this thread?
Well, I'm not.
What would Satan vote in the referendum?
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What would Satan vote in the referendum?
Wiggs mentioned Cameron's bottom earlier. I'm thinking big sticks...
(Sorry, Satan made me post that)
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Let's vote for the side that talks about 'foreigners'. Signed Lou Cyphre
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Apart from the ludicrously bizarre figures, (35 billion a week being 100 times the questionable claim being made by the Leave camp) this post stinks of racism! Surely to a Christian there is no such thing as foreigners?
And that"s leaving aside the laughable idea that most people come in via the Chunnel.
A country like a boat can only take so many passengers. If you over-fill it clearly sinks.
How do you stop a boat with too many people in from sinking? By not over-filling it, in the first instance.
When the EU starts to collapse what do you do then? That's right the USA takes control and we all come under the rule of the USA.
You never look at the bigger picture. I am sure the UK being their brother and sister country will be given special treatment when it happens, (not) a little like a modern tale of the tower of Babel. Imagine mankind being able to do anything...
FRIGHTENING....
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Had absolutely nothing to do with what you originally wrote.
It is simple for myself... Do I want to continue seeing my country flooded with foreigners bringing goodness know what diseases whilst our own suffer? Do I want to see countries responsible in the EU for child prostitution and slave prostitution coming here with the ability to kidnap children or young women and ship them off their foreign brothels and killing people to take power on the streets here?
Being in Europe puts us all at risk when gates open. We pay 35 billions a week and that would be 140 billion a month.
keep that within our own budget for hospitals etc We will be fine.
300,000 in one year and Goodness knows how many when they are not watching.
No, even if it means closing the channel tunnel it is time we came out of Europe.
Such a wonderfully 'Christian' post, you sad little person!!!!!!!!!! You might be signing from a different hymn sheet if you were a migrant trying to escape terrible horrors in their own countries!
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Yeah, but it's Christian racism. This is a higher class of racism altogether, and all in the best possible taste.
Ditto Christian lying. Michael Gove's shit hot at it.
Christian racism doesn't exist.
It is right under your nose the class prejudice in this country.
The poor get poorer and the rich keep treading all over them to remain at the top controlling the purse strings.
You live in a dream world if you actually think Christianity has anything to do with trying to make all religions and gods equal
making the world one instead of learning from the tower of babel the dangers of doing so.
The world created good then fell into the hands of Satan.
The EU is just another way of Satan without Hitler to form a sophisticated way of doing the same thing as Hitler wanted.
But who rules when it all falls apart because no country maintains it's own people, language, customs and money giving up their identity for a dream which will never be a reality?
If the way was being paved for the anti-christ then this is surely the way.....
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It is simple for myself... Do I want to continue seeing my country flooded with foreigners bringing goodness know what diseases whilst our own suffer? Do I want to see countries responsible in the EU for child prostitution and slave prostitution coming here with the ability to kidnap children or young women and ship them off their foreign brothels and killing people to take power on the streets here?
Damn EU letting all those bloody foreigners in, next thing you know they'll have an open door to the Samaritans, scoundrels all they are, not a single Good man among them.
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Yeah, but it's Christian racism. This is a higher class of racism altogether, and all in the best possible taste.
Ditto Christian lying. Michael Gove's shit hot at it.
Christian racism doesn't exist.
It is right under your nose the class prejudice in this country.
The poor get poorer and the rich keep treading all over them to remain at the top controlling the purse strings.
You live in a dream world if you actually think Christianity has anything to do with trying to make all religions and gods equal
making the world one instead of learning from the tower of babel the dangers of doing so.
The world created good then fell into the hands of Satan.
The EU is just another way of Satan without Hitler to form a sophisticated way of doing the same thing as Hitler wanted.
But who rules when it all falls apart because no country maintains it's own people, language, customs and money giving up their identity for a dream which will never be a reality?
If the way was being paved for the anti-christ then this is surely the way.....
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Sass you live in a little world of your own making where logic and common sense don't exist!
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It is simple for myself... Do I want to continue seeing my country flooded with foreigners bringing goodness know what diseases whilst our own suffer?
I'm for Brexit but your posts sure do make me stop and think. The rise of the hard right and hard left worries me in equal measure.
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Wiggs mentioned Cameron's bottom earlier. I'm thinking big sticks...
(Sorry, Satan made me post that)
Even Satan wouldn't admit to being part of the drivel you post.
Even he got his facts right about the scriptures when he talked to Christ.
However the truth is given your post to SP about the Jews. The truth is (something Satan doesn't like and you don't appear to know) is that paganism would be far more damaging and scaring to any Jewish friends you may have than messianic jews/christians.
Why make statements that even the basic bible (Jewish Torah) shows to be wrong?
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The world created good then fell into the hands of Satan.
The EU is just another way of Satan without Hitler to form a sophisticated way of doing the same thing as Hitler wanted.
...
If the way was being paved for the anti-christ then this is surely the way.....
It's posts like this that make me want to question the validity of the one person one vote system.
Perhaps if there were ten questions (multiple choice - related the the poll in hand) and you got a vote for each correct answer..?
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A country like a boat can only take so many passengers. If you over-fill it clearly sinks.
That's probably what the British said when the Saxons first came over, what the Saxons said when the Vikings turned up and what the English said when the Normans arrived.
How many people is too many for the UK. Before you answer let me point out that the population densities of both the Netherlands and Belgium are much higher than ours.
Tell me how many people the UK can support and how you have come to that conclusion. Until you do, I'll just assume you are a xenophobic bigot.
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Perhaps if there were ten questions (multiple choice - related the the poll in hand) and you got a vote for each correct answer..?
Brilliant.
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Yes, SP. I'm not remotely spiritual.
Listen, feel free to think I'm the bitch queen pagan from hell. It's no problem to me. Get your message board mates to pray for me, they'll love it.
I don't care what other people believe generally. Chakras, Angels, crop circles, the resurrection - who cares, so long as it floats the boats. But the beliefs you now hold on Satan are dangerous - to you more than anyone. And your antisemitism - intended or otherwise - fuels something that is spreading actoss Europe ike a cancer - if it ever went away - and it is scaring people like my Jewish friends.
🙄
What is the matter with you lately?
The bitch queen pagan from hell?
Now there's an idea 🤐
Wouldn't it be better to discuss why you don't agree with SP on conspiracy theories and why it leads to antisemitism, rather than just score points?
If she wants to believe she was led astray by Satan for following Paganism I guess you are doing all the right things to convince her, she got it right first time round.
I guess the logic of that is lost on you, though.
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Rather that than an antisemite.
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Rather that than an antisemite.
Not if the net effect is to alienate people and make it worse.
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Not if the net effect is to alienate people and make it worse.
So I'm responsible for SweetPea's antisemitic beliefs? Right...
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So I'm responsible for SweetPea's antisemitic beliefs? Right...
No, but you are responsible for how you respond.
Just that.
Nothing more.
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Well, either I make things worse or I don't.
If I give offence, Rose, it's up to you if you take it or not. But antisemitism is cancerous and I don't really give a shit if I offend when I see it being defended.
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Well, either I make things worse or I don't.
If I give offence, Rose, it's up to you if you take it or not. But antisemitism is cancerous and I don't really give a shit if I offend when I see it being defended.
I don't think sweet pea is defending it, she is just mistaken in the conspiracy theories she has picked up on
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I am feeling fear now. Leave are unleashing large amounts of racism and xenophobia, which won't disappear. When people realize that shortages of housing, and poor NHS service, often attributed to immigration, will continue under a right-wing Boris/Gove government, what happens then?
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What worries me is that it looks certain that Brexit would bring about an significant economic downturn if not a downright recession - and that affects just about everyone (though the rich probably won't suffer too much)
Of course that would mean that migrants won't want to come here, so some people might regard it as a good result.
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What worries me is that it looks certain that Brexit would bring about an significant economic downturn if not a downright recession - and that affects just about everyone (though the rich probably won't suffer too much)
Of course that would mean that migrants won't want to come here, so some people might regard it as a good result.
You don't get it do you. Better to have a small recession for a while than lose control of our own country.
Bring the recession on we a British not cowards who run from scaremongers.
For goodness sake they will lost more in the end than we would by coming out.
But the truth is that is all most people care about is Money, position and power. And of course being accepted in the right circles. The king is in the altogether... sometimes we need to think like children HONESTLY and be prepared to speak out and do the right thing however foolish they tell us we would look.
All anyone has done on here is debate what they have been told. God forbid anyone makes their own mind up on what is best for us in the long run. We won two world wars to stop people like Hitler from taking away our freedom.
Now you want to hand it to Brussels on a platter... Go take a hike the women have done mens jobs long enough to know scaremongering is for the idiots who live in fear and cowards instead of having forethought to see we are a nation of survivors and freedom is not to be given away at any cost...
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All anyone has done on here is debate what they have been told
right back at ya.
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right back at ya.
Not at all... my post clearly states:-
God forbid anyone makes their own mind up on what is best for us in the long run. We won two world wars to stop people like Hitler from taking away our freedom.
Now you want to hand it to Brussels on a platter... Go take a hike the women have done mens jobs long enough to know scaremongering is for the idiots who live in fear and cowards instead of having forethought to see we are a nation of survivors and freedom is not to be given away at any cost...
Did you skip that bit?
In fact, if my post as addressed says ALL ANYONE has done how would that not include me up till that last post... do pay attention.
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Dear Sass,
Damn you are right, shut the doors forget everything that Our Lord Jesus said, let someone else deal with the migrants, the poor and outcast are someone else's problem, it's true, we are not a Christian country anymore >:(
Gonnagle.
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LONG LIVE THE EU!
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Dear Sass,
Damn you are right, shut the doors forget everything that Our Lord Jesus said, let someone else deal with the migrants, the poor and outcast are someone else's problem, it's true, we are not a Christian country anymore >:(
Gonnagle.
1 Timothy 5:8King James Version (KJV)
8 But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.
How does giving what our families should have to others remedy the problem?
Our own are on the streets. As many as 9 homeless people dying each month in each town alone.
You see Charity begins at home. If you cannot feed your own then you do not bring in someone else to take what is rightfully theirs.
So it isn't a case of the poor being someone elses problem. You cannot pretend you are helping the poor of other nations if you are leaving your own, in your own country to die in poverty on the streets from starvation and sickness.
Do pay attention because I believe the LORD is getting sick of your double standards and deliberate ignorance of the truth.
We cannot feed or house our own so how do you intend they should be fed and housed here?
Don't ever levy false accusations against me ever before the LORD.
You are the one who lacks the wisdom and the knowledge of the word of God.
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Thrud,
Can you add a further option to your poll. Exit and take care of our own homeless and poor, then take care of the rest of the world.
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Not at all... my post clearly states:-
God forbid anyone makes their own mind up on what is best for us in the long run. We won two world wars to stop people like Hitler from taking away our freedom.
Now you want to hand it to Brussels on a platter... Go take a hike the women have done mens jobs long enough to know scaremongering is for the idiots who live in fear and cowards instead of having forethought to see we are a nation of survivors and freedom is not to be given away at any cost...
Did you skip that bit?
In fact, if my post as addressed says ALL ANYONE has done how would that not include me up till that last post... do pay attention.
So no one is allowed to think differently to Sass. There is a word for that.
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You don't get it do you. Better to have a small recession for a while than lose control of our own country.
A recession is never good for any of us - except speculators.
Bring the recession on we a British not cowards who run from scaremongers.
Though apparently most Brixiteers are terrified of migrants
But the truth is that is all most people care about is Money, position and power. And of course being accepted in the right circles. The king is in the altogether... sometimes we need to think like children HONESTLY and be prepared to speak out and do the right thing however foolish they tell us we would look.
All anyone has done on here is debate what they have been told. God forbid anyone makes their own mind up on what is best for us in the long run. We won two world wars to stop people like Hitler from taking away our freedom.
Now you want to hand it to Brussels on a platter... Go take a hike the women have done mens jobs long enough to know scaremongering is for the idiots who live in fear and cowards instead of having forethought to see we are a nation of survivors and freedom is not to be given away at any cost...
If you want to think for yourself, I suggest to get some sensible information by listening to the 'More or Less' programs that are running this week at 12:04 on Radio 4 - available on iPlayer:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07gv98b
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Thrud,
Can you add a further option to your poll. Exit and take care of our own homeless and poor, then take care of the rest of the world.
We do take care of our own homeless and poor though there is and will always be room for improvement; we don't particularly care for the rest of the world except in certain instances when it would be inhumane not to. We have been helped by other nations in times of strife but we are a fairly wealthy country compared to many; in theory there should be no poor and homeless but we have an imperfect system.
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We do take care of our own homeless and poor though there is and will always be room for improvement; we don't particularly care for the rest of the world except in certain instances when it would be inhumane not to. We have been helped by other nations in times of strife but we are a fairly wealthy country compared to many; in theory there should be no poor and homeless but we have an imperfect system.
I was going to male the same point Brownie, so thank you for saving me the bother. That we have a government that has priorities that do not include the homeless and poor is down to our own choices and nothing to do with the EU.
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So no one is allowed to think differently to Sass. There is a word for that.
It does not say that....
All anyone has done on here is debate what they have been told. God forbid anyone makes their own mind up on what is best for us in the long run. We won two world wars to stop people like Hitler from taking away our freedom.
It was about the above underlined. Hence you should pay attention..der....
We do take care of our own homeless and poor though there is and will always be room for improvement; we don't particularly care for the rest of the world except in certain instances when it would be inhumane not to. We have been helped by other nations in times of strife but we are a fairly wealthy country compared to many; in theory there should be no poor and homeless but we have an imperfect system.
What a load of rubbish YOU don't take care of our homeless or the poor. We would not have ANY if you or we did. I do go on the streets and feed them and I do see what happens even in the hospitals where they send them out with life threatening conditions to die. Making excuses that these seriously ill people want a bed for the night. Hence they die from complications.
You haven't a clue Brownie as your answer clearly shows lack of reality of what is happening on the streets.
My brother went to meet the then prime minister and the big issue editor to discuss issues of the homeless and the hospitals. I can tell you as he told them, you don't know what goes on and help was NOT being given.
Those who die do so because they are turned away from medical help. They also get moved out of safe doorways when asleep by police because they don't want Joe public to see the reality of how they live.
In Manchester they won't allow them into use the public toilets so where do you think they do their peeing and pooing. You live in your lovely middle class world with your middle class house and middle class way of life.
God forbid you go beyond your own perfect little world and venture into the reality of the homeless.
It is attitudes like your own from the more affluent in our society which stops them getting help and helps them to feel the lowest form of human life.
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Nurse the curtains and hypodermic - she's off again.
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I would sooner give money to help needy migrants and the starving in Africa, than to most of those who beg on the streets, knowing many of them will spend it on alcohol or drugs.
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Brexit will be a fucking disaster which I bet we will feel straight away.
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..., we don't particularly care for the rest of the world except in certain instances when it would be inhumane not to.
Brownie, I think you'll find that we are one of the highest nations in terms of the money we give (not loan, any longer) to poorer nations. You will also find that the massive bi-lateral contracts that we and other nations used to rely on as aid vehicles are being replaced with far more targetted and locally specific grants - often through INGOs and NGOs that have been carefully vetted.
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That's good Hope. So we should.
I'm going to edit my previous post to add something; I thought of saying it first time round but because, to this day, I find it quite difficult, I didn't, but now I think, why not.
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Brexit will be a fucking disaster which I bet we will feel straight away.
Nah! it will be the best thing for us, but not for those leaving....
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Who will be "leaving"?
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Those who are not "us" I suppose - who, er, support Brexit - not quite sure of the meaning.
Maybe Sass meant ''Left Behind' rather than "leaving", no doubt she will explain sine die.
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Who will be "leaving"?
We will be leaving all vestiges of sanity and waltzing of to La La Land.
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As long as it's not L.A. land I'll be content with whatever we get.
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We will be leaving all vestiges of sanity and waltzing of to La La Land.
Isn't that the place with giant rabbits, a giggling baby sun and Toyah Wilcox?
(I won't mention the e's falling from the sky.)
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That sounds pretty cool to me Rhiannon, as long as it's warm and not too noisy.
E numbers though are not my scene, prefer organic food; Vitamin E would be OK ;).
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Fortunately Toyah doesn't sing.
Tinky Winky does get followed around by his own personal rain cloud though. I'd suggest not wearing purple if you prefer to stay dry.
Btw the Hoover thing with the face is utterly terrifying but I think the EU has since banned them.
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Thrud,
Can you add a further option to your poll. Exit and take care of our own homeless and poor, then take care of the rest of the world.
Nope because basically the "I'm alright Jack" covers that option.
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Nope because basically the "I'm alright Jack" covers that option.
You mean it covers both exists ??? Can you really stay and go at the same time...
A real Clash now of 'should I stay or should I go.' ::)
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The third option is not really an "I am alright, Jack" option is it? Because in or out it is going to affect them somehow.
But, I believe the stay in option would damage us too much we should not lose our independence to make decisions for ourselves.
A little like the old boys club isn't it.
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Well we don't really know that the money will be spent on alcohol and drugs, floo, though the popular press leads us to think in that direction and of course, some will. One can always buy a sandwich, apple, cup of coffee and give to them if we feel moved. Maybe a little loose change. I used to see a lot of people on the streets when I worked up n town and have to say it became commonplace during Thatcher's government, was rarely seen before that.People living in doorways, all bundled up in old coats asleep, with a few possessions in bags. Some of the people had mental health problems.
I worked for a homeless charity for a while in central London, some of the people did have drink problems though they were not allowed to come to the centre whilst in drink. A great many had mental health issues. They had some respite there, could eat, change clothes, shower etc. Just be normal, play table tennis maybe, read and chat.
A few of us (including clergy) tried to set up a drop in centre at our local church, in the church hall, but that didn't come to anything unfortunately. There was a lot of opposition, mainly because the church hall was used for many other things and various internal politics. Edit: There was a big meeting and members of various groups brought evidence of how much they did for overseas charities. Because we had said it would be a good idea to open a drop in centre to "help those on our doorstep", they (deliberately) interpreted it to mean that we felt we should help them at the expense of helping those abroad. Nothing could have been further from the truth, there was no reason at all why we couldn't do both! The anti's didn't like the idea of their precious hall possibly encouraging 'undesirables' and making the place messy. It was horrible. As if we hadn't considered the cleaning up etc. Very disillusioning.
I also worked for five years with people in prison who had many social issues which they and their families had to face when they left.
A good charity to support is this one:
https://www.trusselltrust.org/get-help/find-a-foodbank/?gclid=CNnm-43fqc0CFUKc2wodGmULmA
There are other organisations that run food banks, I know of the above one because there is somewhere local to me that organises food supplies for poor people.
Any of us could have found ourselves in that position if something had gone wrong in our lives. I'm sure it is the same in every country.
Of course our government should do more and not rely on charities but we have to deal with the here and now and cannot stand aside when people are in need.
We've gone off the point a bit. I'm sure being in our out of the EU will not have any immediate effect on the poor and homeless in any country but people do generally have more rights, especially the sick, the young and children, because of the EU.
Do you believe the things you did then which you talk about you having done above would really reflect the truth of the present day issues?
People on the streets are not given their rights when it comes to the NHS and the EU isn't helping because our NHS is inundated with the volume of people having been increased that they have to treat.
When the NHS gone because of the EU and private medicine has been brought in. Only the rich will be able to afford medical treatment.
In March Bren a friend sent home when having a stroke blood not even tested back hours later
paralysed down one side,. They never sent the bloods had they done so they would have known he was having a stroke.
http://www.stokesentinel.co.uk/family-haunted-memory-mum-left-die-hospital/story-26459356-detail/story.html
A woman of 83 left to die in a corridor no beds..
Being in the EU isn't helping our over worked medical system. And I believe it will be got rid so you have to pay eventually.
Is being in the EU of any real use in the long run.
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Do you believe the things you did then which you talk about you having done above would really reflect the truth of the present day issues?
People on the streets are not given their rights when it comes to the NHS and the EU isn't helping because our NHS is inundated with the volume of people having been increased that they have to treat.
When the NHS gone because of the EU and private medicine has been brought in. Only the rich will be able to afford medical treatment.
In March Bren a friend sent home when having a stroke blood not even tested back hours later
paralysed down one side,. They never sent the bloods had they done so they would have known he was having a stroke.
http://www.stokesentinel.co.uk/family-haunted-memory-mum-left-die-hospital/story-26459356-detail/story.html
A woman of 83 left to die in a corridor no beds..
Being in the EU isn't helping our over worked medical system. And I believe it will be got rid so you have to pay eventually.
Is being in the EU of any real use in the long run.
The problem Sassy is that we spend less on health than most countries in the UK.
The Brexit version is a lie.
The people who would obviously take charge of a Brexit government are anti NHS to a man.
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our NHS is inundated with the volume of people having been increased that they have to treat.
How many people?
When the NHS gone because of the EU and private medicine has been brought in. Only the rich will be able to afford medical treatment.
Believe me, the NHS is in far less danger from the EU than our own government. And if the Brexiters win and the government is taken over by rabid wing nuts like Michael Gove, it won't get any better.
Also, if we throw out all the EU citizens using the NHS, they'll throw out all the British citizens using other EU health services and guess what? They cost more than the EU citizens here do.
You Brexiters really are totally clueless.
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Believe me, the NHS is in far less danger from the EU than our own government. And if the Brexiters win and the government is taken over by rabid wing nuts like Michael Gove, it won't get any better.
Our democratically elected Government? Gove isn't that right wing and insult is not a substitute for argument.
Also, if we throw out all the EU citizens using the NHS, they'll throw out all the British citizens using other EU health services and guess what? They cost more than the EU citizens here do.
Nobody will be thrown out.
You Brexiters really are totally clueless.
Jeremy you've decided to debate with Sass (personally I wouldn't bother) you don't have to go down to her level.
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Our democratically elected Government? Gove isn't that right wing and insult is not a substitute for argument.
He's an idiot and he will dismantle the NHS. The NHS is not in any danger whatsoever from the EU.
Nobody will be thrown out.
Sassy seems to think they will be.That's the reason she thinks we are leaving: so we can get rid of Johnny Foreigner.
Jeremy you've decided to debate with Sass (personally I wouldn't bother) you don't have to go down to her level.
I chose to debate on that point because it symbolises one of the biggest problems with Brexiters. They forget that this is a two way street. Yes, Europeans are coming here, but that is because our economy is doing well. In worse times, the migration goes the other way. In the 1980's lots of our people went to Europe to find work because there was none in Britain. You Brexiters make it look like we are happy to take from the EU but when it comes to giving back, we are selfish bastards. I do not want to be tarred with that brush and your attitude of take take take makes me very angry.
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Our democratically elected Government? Gove isn't that right wing and insult is not a substitute for argument.
Nobody will be thrown out.
Jeremy you've decided to debate with Sass (personally I wouldn't bother) you don't have to go down to her level.
Jak
What will be done by Michael Gove for those who will lose their jobs, homes, experience family breakup etc because of Brexit?
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He's an idiot and he will dismantle the NHS. The NHS is not in any danger whatsoever from the EU.
He's an elected politician and he will only be able to do what the electorate allow him to do. TTIP is a danger to the NHS, an EU project.
Sassy seems to think they will be.That's the reason she thinks we are leaving: so we can get rid of Johnny Foreigner.
Well she is wrong.
I chose to debate on that point because it symbolises one of the biggest problems with Brexiters. They forget that this is a two way street. Yes, Europeans are coming here, but that is because our economy is doing well. In worse times, the migration goes the other way. In the 1980's lots of our people went to Europe to find work because there was none in Britain. You Brexiters make it look like we are happy to take from the EU but when it comes to giving back, we are selfish bastards. I do not want to be tarred with that brush and your attitude of take take take makes me very angry.
Mmmm maybe Sass is going down to your level. I have no attitude of take take take and couldn't give a fuck if you pretending I do makes you angry, grow up.
I support Brexit because I think our government should be able to make our own laws, decide how we spend our own money, decide who comes in into the country and make our own trade deals. You support remain because you think the EU should have the power, or at least influence, over those things.
Don't get on your high horse because you've deluded yourself that the EU that it has everyone's interests at heart with things like a everyone is welcome policy, it doesn't.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36558694
I totally agree Sass is bigoted, xenophobic and prejudiced, labelling anyone who doesn't agree with you the same gets you the same labels with a big dose of hypocrisy.
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He's an elected politician and he will only be able to do what the electorate allow him to do. TTIP is a danger to the NHS, an EU project.
Well she is wrong.
Mmmm maybe Sass is going down to your level. I have no attitude of take take take and couldn't give a fuck if you pretending I do makes you angry, grow up.
I support Brexit because I think our government should be able to make our own laws, decide how we spend our own money, decide who comes in into the country and make our own trade deals. You support remain because you think the EU should have the power, or at least influence, over those things.
Don't get on your high horse because you've deluded yourself that the EU that it has everyone's interests at heart with things like a everyone is welcome policy, it doesn't.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36558694
I totally agree Sass is bigoted, xenophobic and prejudiced, labelling anyone who doesn't agree with you the same gets you the same labels with a big dose of hypocrisy.
The EU does not have THE power and as far as I can see no one here wants it to have THE power. Another plausible sounding Brexit myth although when brought into the cold light of day it doesn't sound all that plausible.
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The EU does not have THE power and as far as I can see no one here wants it to have THE power. Another plausible sounding Brexit myth although when brought into the cold light of day it doesn't sound all that plausible.
You are wrong the EU has the power to negotiate trade deals, spend some of our money, makes some of our laws,decides who is allowed into the country.
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You are wrong the EU has the power to negotiate trade deals,
As can we - so we get two bites at the cherry.
spend some of our money
We are part of the EU so the notion that they are 'spending some of our money' is no more true than that the UK government 'spends some of our money' - actually a hell of a lot more that the EU. Why is tax payer money any more the UK governments, than the EU - actually it comes from us.
makes some of our laws
Via democratic processes, just as the UK government does - and all laws need to be ratified at member state level, most with vetoes - so if the UK doesn't like it, it doesn't happen.
decides who is allowed into the country.
Really!!? When I last entered the UK (last Tuesday lunchtime) I could have sworn I had to pass through border control which is run entirely by the UK government.
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As can we - so we get two bites at the cherry.
We cannot, all trade deals are subject to tariffs that the EU sets. It is not possible for the UK to do a free trade deal with any country without getting approval from 27 other countries.
We are part of the EU so the notion that they are 'spending some of our money' is no more true than that the UK government 'spends some of our money' - actually a hell of a lot more that the EU. Why is tax payer money any more the UK governments, than the EU - actually it comes from us.
I can hold UK government to account via our culture, voting, getting in touch directly with MPs. The EU is a remote bureaucracy who I have no engagement with. Not that this was the point Vlad claimed the EU didn't have any power, you seem to have conceded that point.
Via democratic processes, just as the UK government does - and all laws need to be ratified at member state level, most with vetoes - so if the UK doesn't like it, it doesn't happen.
Again you have conceded the point, the EU does have the power.
Really!!? When I last entered the UK (last Tuesday lunchtime) I could have sworn I had to pass through border control which is run entirely by the UK government.
Another attempt at obfuscation. Who is allowed to pass through those border controls is in some way dictated by the EU, i.e. they have the power.
Can we try to clean this debate up a little. You feel the EU will offer a better form of government than our own, I get that, I feel the UK government will offer a better from of government than the EU. Neither is perfect, however I feel UK politicians are held to account much better than EU bureaucrats.
I think the time has gone when anyone was going to change their mind.
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...
Can we try to clean this debate up a little. You feel the EU will offer a better form of government than our own, I get that, I feel the UK government will offer a better from of government than the EU. Neither is perfect, however I feel UK politicians are held to account much better than EU bureaucrats.
I think the time has gone when anyone was going to change their mind.
I'd like a UK government to manage UK matters and an EU government to manage EU wide matters (in the absence of other groupings). Both should be fully democratic and accountable, but this doesn't mean that conflicts can always be avoided.
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We cannot, all trade deals are subject to tariffs that the EU sets. It is not possible for the UK to do a free trade deal with any country without getting approval from 27 other countries.
Wrong - there are loads and loads of trade deals that don't involve changes to tariff arrangement - indeed the vast majority. Why the obsession with tariffs. Most barriers to trade aren't tariffs but non tariff arrangements.
And actually on tariffs it isn't the EU per se which requires harmonisation of tariffs, it is the European customs union, which isn't congruent with the EU. Indeed there are non-EU countries that are in the customs union and some territories that are part of the EU that aren't in the customs union.
And of course it is self evident that is you abolish customs between territories you have to have harmonisation of tariffs or a exporter could simply export into the country with the lowest tariff and then transfer the goods (without customs check) into a country that has a higher tariff.
I can hold UK government to account via our culture, voting, getting in touch directly with MPs. The EU is a remote bureaucracy who I have no engagement with. Not that this was the point Vlad claimed the EU didn't have any power, you seem to have conceded that point.
You can do exactly the same with the EU and remember you don't just have one MEP (as is the case with MPs) you have several, so you are much more likely to find one minded to take up your cause. And of course the UK government is directly involved in the decision making of the EU, so if you have a say in the UK government (which you claim you do) then you also have a say in the EU.
Another attempt at obfuscation. Who is allowed to pass through those border controls is in some way dictated by the EU, i.e. they have the power.
And those arrangements have been agreed by the UK government and they are subject to veto. So, no the EU doesn't have the power - the power is vested at the level of member state governments. If the UK didn't want it to happen they can veto and it won't happen.
Can we try to clean this debate up a little. You feel the EU will offer a better form of government than our own, I get that, I feel the UK government will offer a better from of government than the EU. Neither is perfect, however I feel UK politicians are held to account much better than EU bureaucrats.
Where did I ever claim the EU governance was better than the UK. Both, in my opinion have strengths, both have limitations. That isn't the point, it isn't one or the other. I want decisions to be taken at the most appropriate level. I don't want the UK government taking a decision that is better taken at local level. I don't want the EU taking decision that are better taken at UK level. But there are issues where it is most appropriate that the decision is made in a cooperative manner across EU countries.
The other point is that having different levels of governance provides checks and balances, and as we both agree that neither the EU nor the UK government is perfect, those checks and balances are important. If we leave I'd be genuinely concerned that far, far too much power would become vested at the UK government level - we currently have too much that is decided in Westminster rather than at local level, and if we leave we'd end up with decisions that really need to be taken at international level also vest at Westminster too. As you fully accept that Westminster is far from perfect do you really want them having yet more power?
I think the time has gone when anyone was going to change their mind.
I disagree - just today we have seen an ex minister defect from leave to remain. And given the events over the last few days I think there are plenty of people who toyed with leave who simply cannot hold their nose hard enough to maintain that position.
Certainly the betting has shifted massively this morning.
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Watched Cameron on TV last night - I don't like him really, but I admired his performance under pressure. He is remorselessly articulate, and has good sound-bites, Britain doesn't quit, and so on. He looked flustered about immigration, but if I was a Tory, I would see him as an asset to stay with, rather than BoGove.
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Wrong - there are loads and loads of trade deals that don't involve changes to tariff arrangement - indeed the vast majority. Why the obsession with tariffs. Most barriers to trade aren't tariffs but non tariff arrangements.
And actually on tariffs it isn't the EU per se which requires harmonisation of tariffs, it is the European customs union, which isn't congruent with the EU. Indeed there are non-EU countries that are in the customs union and some territories that are part of the EU that aren't in the customs union.
And of course it is self evident that is you abolish customs between territories you have to have harmonisation of tariffs or a exporter could simply export into the country with the lowest tariff and then transfer the goods (without customs check) into a country that has a higher tariff.
When I say a trade deal I mean tariffs not just business deals, the UK is unable to negotiate its own trade deals.
You can do exactly the same with the EU and remember you don't just have one MEP (as is the case with MPs) you have several, so you are much more likely to find one minded to take up your cause. And of course the UK government is directly involved in the decision making of the EU, so if you have a say in the UK government (which you claim you do) then you also have a say in the EU.
No MEP can propose legislation, since they do not belong to a party containing a large number of MPs the chances of me swaying a large group of MEPs is not possible, I have never seen a leading EU bureaucrat being held to account by the media.
And those arrangements have been agreed by the UK government and they are subject to veto. So, no the EU doesn't have the power - the power is vested at the level of member state governments. If the UK didn't want it to happen they can veto and it won't happen.
You will have run that past me again, being part of the EU means freedom of movement are you suggesting that the UK can remain and not have freedom of movement?
Where did I ever claim the EU governance was better than the UK. Both, in my opinion have strengths, both have limitations. That isn't the point, it isn't one or the other. I want decisions to be taken at the most appropriate level. I don't want the UK government taking a decision that is better taken at local level. I don't want the EU taking decision that are better taken at UK level. But there are issues where it is most appropriate that the decision is made in a cooperative manner across EU countries.
So trade deals are better negotiated at EU level? What to do with £350million a week better in the hands of the EU rather than Uk government?
The other point is that having different levels of governance provides checks and balances, and as we both agree that neither the EU nor the UK government is perfect, those checks and balances are important. If we leave I'd be genuinely concerned that far, far too much power would become vested at the UK government level - we currently have too much that is decided in Westminster rather than at local level, and if we leave we'd end up with decisions that really need to be taken at international level also vest at Westminster too. As you fully accept that Westminster is far from perfect do you really want them having yet more power?
Compared to EU, yes!
I disagree - just today we have seen an ex minister defect from leave to remain. And given the events over the last few days I think there are plenty of people who toyed with leave who simply cannot hold their nose hard enough to maintain that position.
Certainly the betting has shifted massively this morning.
I don't think I'm changing my mind, are you?
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When I say a trade deal I mean tariffs not just business deals, the UK is unable to negotiate its own trade deals.
Oh, moving the goalposts I see. There are all sorts of non-tariff trade barriers that are dealt with in trade deals. And the UK can, and does, do all sorts of deals of this type.
Note you've ignored my point about the custom area, which isn't congruent with the EU. So unless the UK wants to remove itself from the customs area (and good luck with selling that one to either business or the general public) then the UK will still be bound by tariff harmonisation even if it leaves the EU.
What to do with £350million a week better in the hands of the EU rather than Uk government?
I thought you'd be bright enough to understand that the £350million a week figure is a big fat lie. If you still believe it then it is hard to take any other comment from you seriously to be honest.
I don't think I'm changing my mind, are you?
No I'm certainly not changing my mind - not so sure about you. But there are certainly plenty of people who have done so over the past few days and will continue to do so up until Thursday. The reality of a real decision, a real ballot paper focuses people's minds and that (as with virtually all referendums) tends to produce a late swing to the status quo as people get cold feet about a jump in the dark.
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He's an elected politician and he will only be able to do what the electorate allow him to do. TTIP is a danger to the NHS, an EU project.
Ha ha. That's so funny.
The problem is that the electorate is allowing the Tories to dismantle the NHS.
Also, could you explain how TTIP is a threat to the NHS. I think it's bollocks.
In any case, we have a veto.
Mmmm maybe Sass is going down to your level. I have no attitude of take take take and couldn't give a fuck if you pretending I do makes you angry, grow up.
It looks very much like that is your attitude from here.
I support Brexit because I think our government should be able to make our own laws, decide how we spend our own money, decide who comes in into the country and make our own trade deals. You support remain because you think the EU should have the power, or at least influence, over those things.
Who is "we"? In your answer, account for the fact that the current government got around 35% of the vote in the last election.
Don't get on your high horse because you've deluded yourself that the EU that it has everyone's interests at heart with things like a everyone is welcome policy, it doesn't.
The EU certainly has the average person's interests at heart more than Michael Gove.
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Also, could you explain how TTIP is a threat to the NHS. I think it's bollocks.
Some years ago, when TTIP was first being mooted, several groups managed to get hod of a draft copy of the discussion papers and they showed that TTIP would require Europe to allow US Health Maintenance Organisations to take over various parts of a nation's healthcare provision. For many parts of Europe, this wouldn't make that much diference, but for us with our NHS (and all our cross-border healthcare agreements whish allow us to gain at least some free or reduced rate healthcare whilst abroad) it would mean that much of the healthcare system could not only become privatised, albeit funded by taxpayers, it would require US-style health insurance leaving millions out in the cold - ie a return to pre-1948 conditions but worse.
In any case, we have a veto.
As far as I'm aware, TTIP is all or nothing. There is no veto, like we can veto a European army, as TTIP would seem to be outside of that provision. The problem is that, as the negotiations that have been ongoing for some 20 years now, are secrtet and no-one is allowed to say anything about them, by order of the Americans we don't actually know what we have.
If anything, we ought to be having an EU-wide referendum on TTIP not Britain's membership of the EU.
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Some years ago, when TTIP was first being mooted, several groups managed to get hod of a draft copy of the discussion papers and they showed that TTIP would require Europe to allow US Health Maintenance Organisations to take over various parts of a nation's healthcare provision
Would it actually be a bad thing to allow US Health companies to run parts of the NHS? This could only happen if they could demonstrate a competitive advantage which would mean that the NHS would save money, and so presumably would have funds to use elsewhere.
I really don't understand why this would be an issue as long as:
A/ The company could demonstrate competence.
B/ Treatment remained free at the point of delivery.
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As far as I'm aware, TTIP is all or nothing. There is no veto ...
Wrong - approval for the TTIP requires all 28 member states to agree. The is, therefore, a veto for every country including the UK.
The reality is, of course, that the TTIP is the sort of thing the current Tory government loves, more so the right wing economic libertarians e.g. IDS, Redwood, Gove etc. So were we outside of the EU and relying on the current government (or its Brexit reshuffled version) to agree a bilateral agreement with the USA, they'd be all in favour albeit we'd have less bargaining power so it would be more likely to be tipped in favour of the USA. It is the power of the EU, notably the notion that there must be unanimous agreement that is much more likely to result in TTIP being canned, or more likely amended in the interests of the EU member states.
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Wrong - approval for the TTIP requires all 28 member states to agree. The is, therefore, a veto for every country including the UK.
Sorry, PD, that is not what I have been told or read. Furthermore, there doesn't actually seem to be that much information, let alone detail, as to what TTIP (EU-style) includes. We have 'chapter' headings and broad concept headings - eg Market access, specific regulation and broader rules and principles and modes of co-operation, but currently very little detail has been announced. Some has been leaked, but even then we're not sure where that originated from or whether it properly reflects what is in the treaty.
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Sorry, PD, that is not what I have been told or read.
all member states must approve the TTIP, and therefore all member states have a veto.
Here is the relevant article (207(4)) on trade deals such as TTIP - direct quote:
'For the negotiation and conclusion of agreements in the fields of trade in services and the commercial aspects of intellectual property, as well as foreign direct investment, the Council shall act unanimously where such agreements include provisions for which unanimity is required for the adoption of internal rules.
The Council shall also act unanimously for the negotiation and conclusion of agreements:
(a)in the field of trade in cultural and audiovisual services, where these agreements risk prejudicing the Union’s cultural and linguistic diversity;
(b)in the field of trade in social, education and health services, where these agreements risk seriously disturbing the national organisation of such services and prejudicing the responsibility of Member States to deliver them.'
TTIP requires unanimous agreement from all member states.
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Oh, moving the goalposts I see. There are all sorts of non-tariff trade barriers that are dealt with in trade deals. And the UK can, and does, do all sorts of deals of this type.
Note you've ignored my point about the custom area, which isn't congruent with the EU. So unless the UK wants to remove itself from the customs area (and good luck with selling that one to either business or the general public) then the UK will still be bound by tariff harmonisation even if it leaves the EU.
We may well leave the customs union, free market, EU.
"One of the consequences of the customs union is that the European Union negotiates as a single entity in international trade deals such as the World Trade Organisation, instead of individual member states negotiating for themselves."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_Customs_Union#EU_territories_with_an_opt-out
Is Wiki wrong?
I thought you'd be bright enough to understand that the £350million a week figure is a big fat lie. If you still believe it then it is hard to take any other comment from you seriously to be honest.
Who controls that £350 million is the EU, happy to clarify its £175 million a week net!
No I'm certainly not changing my mind - not so sure about you. But there are certainly plenty of people who have done so over the past few days and will continue to do so up until Thursday. The reality of a real decision, a real ballot paper focuses people's minds and that (as with virtually all referendums) tends to produce a late swing to the status quo as people get cold feet about a jump in the dark.
No I don't think so, yet to hear a compelling argument to remain, I keep an open mind though.
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Who controls that £350 million is the EU
No, yet again a great big whopper.
Because the £350m lie fails to recognise that it includes the rebate, which is never 'sent to the EU' - and who controls that veto - the UK government does as it has a veto over any changes to it.
Stop lying Jakswan - but hey when you don't actually have any cogent arguments to back up your views then lying is all you are left with.
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No, yet again a great big whopper.
Because the £350m lie fails to recognise that it includes the rebate, which is never 'sent to the EU' - and who controls that veto - the UK government does as it has a veto over any changes to it.
Stop lying Jakswan - but hey when you don't actually have any cogent arguments to back up your views then lying is all you are left with.
Let me rephrase for you, the EU has some sway over UK funds upoto £350 million a week. Noted you don't challenge the £175million a week itself a large amount of cash, and other points raised, I'll consider you have conceded those.
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Let me rephrase for you, the EU has some sway over UK funds upoto £350 million a week. Noted you don't challenge the £175million a week itself a large amount of cash, and other points raised, I'll consider you have conceded those.
It was pointed out in one of the More Or Less programs that £175million a week was actually a very small figure compared to our value of our trade with the EU and only a very small decrease in that trade would wipe it out.
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Let me rephrase for you, the EU has some sway over UK funds upoto £350 million a week. Noted you don't challenge the £175million a week itself a large amount of cash, and other points raised, I'll consider you have conceded those.
No they don't - the UK has a veto on the rebate so the 'EU' has no say whatsoever on this - the only people how can decide to remove the rebate is the UK government.
And your net figure is also wrong, and is, frankly irrelevant. The only relevant 'net' figure is what we directly contribute adjusted for the benefit to our economy that arises. And that is about £10 of benefit for every £1 we pay to the EU.
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No they don't - the UK has a veto on the rebate so the 'EU' has no say whatsoever on this - the only people how can decide to remove the rebate is the UK government.
Blimey Dogma Dave you do see things in black and white, being in the EU is complex negotiating process.
from BBC:-
The level of the UK rebate is decided every seven years, as part of the EU's long-term budget, the Multiannual Financial Framework (MFF), which is negotiated by the EU leaders.
Sure he can veto its one of the things the UK negotiates with but we are not in full control of the £350 million.
And your net figure is also wrong, and is, frankly irrelevant. The only relevant 'net' figure is what we directly contribute adjusted for the benefit to our economy that arises. And that is about £10 of benefit for every £1 we pay to the EU.
In that case lets end the NHS, all public spending, and just send the EU all our money.
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Exit. I hope you guys don't bottle it like the Scots did last year. Hopefully it will be the beginning of the end for the EU.
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And would you be happy with Boris, Gove and Farrage in charge?
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Why would they be? They might be acting like s government in waiting but that is down to their arrogance.
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And would you be happy with Boris, Gove and Farrage in charge?
Who said that? I don't equate leaving the EU as an endorsement of the above names.
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David Icke is for out - that should be enough to put off anyone thinking of voting for out!!!
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And would you be happy with Boris, Gove and Farrage in charge?
I didn't vote in the Common Market referendum in 1975 on the narrow idea as to which party/group I should support or not in the few years after it, but rather in the knowledge that this would be a decision which would last for at least a generation, whoever is in charge, so why should I not do so now?
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David Icke is for out - that should be enough to put off anyone thinking of voting for out!!!
I suppose he'd prefer a trading agreement with Alpha Centauri.
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Massive queues for petrol in town. Do people think Brexit will see a jump in fuel prices (because of a hit to sterling maybe?) Could just be coincidence I suppose.
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Dear Rhiannon,
You heard it here first, we are not leaving, the human race maybe totally stupid but on this question voters will see through the hype, or they have seen through the hype, the polls show remain, the betting shows remain, hell even this little poll we have shows remain and the sad fact of Jo Cox's death, which has floored many, it certainly floored me, we will remain, the big question after all the fuss dies down, how close, and what does that mean for Mr Cameron.
Gonnagle.
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I think we'll stay too, Gonners, but just as the referendum in Scotland saw a massive jump in support for the SNP I think we'll see the same for UKIP.
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You heard it here first, we are not leaving, the human race maybe totally stupid but on this question voters will see through the hype, or they have seen through the hype, the polls show remain, the betting shows remain, hell even this little poll we have shows remain and the sad fact of Jo Cox's death, which has floored many, it certainly floored me, we will remain, the big question after all the fuss dies down, how close, and what does that mean for Mr Cameron.
Cameron has already announced he will stand down before the next election, so if he wins the vote, it would allow him to leave on a high.
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Dear Rhiannon,
I think we'll stay too, Gonners, but just as the referendum in Scotland saw a massive jump in support for the SNP I think we'll see the same for UKIP.
Yes you are right, the sad thing is that UKIP and the SNP only want one thing, UKIP want to leave the EU, SNP want Independence, this is their flaw, for Sturgeon this will hang over her head, I think of myself as a ordinary voter, so if she mentions Independence, I am thinking, you lost, get on with the job of governing Scotland.
For me the big shock in the general election here in Scotland was how well the Tories did but I see that as a backlash at the Independence question, the Labour party got their come uppence because of their complacency, the Labour party here in Scotland have a huge hill to climb, and they will only do that by backing Corbyn and stop being plastic Tories.
Gonnagle.
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Dear Rhiannon,
You heard it here first, we are not leaving
I've been known to nod off in the chair on occasion but bloody hell, is it Friday already?
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For me the big shock in the general election here in Scotland was how well the Tories did but I see that as a backlash at the Independence question, the Labour party got their come uppence because of their complacency, the Labour party here in Scotland have a huge hill to climb, and they will only do that by backing Corbyn and stop being plastic Tories.
Labour really need to do something about that old fellow, I think he's a retired university lecturer or something, who always seems to be pottering about making all kinds of totally irrelevant statements.
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Just discovered that there are Brexit branded condoms.
Which is a sentence in need of a punchline if ever there was one...
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Just discovered that there are Brexit branded condoms.
Which is a sentence in need of a punchline if ever there was one...
But they don't need condoms as they are going to withdraw?
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Exit. I hope you guys don't bottle it like the Scots did last year. Hopefully it will be the beginning of the end for the EU.
Wondered when you were going to show up on this, ad_o. Yep, many in Europe are pleading for us to leave.
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And would you be happy with Boris, Gove and Farrage in charge?
You do realise this vote isn't about any of them don't you?
You are effectively voting not for Gove but for EU bureaucrats, this is your one and only chance.
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You heard it here first, we are not leaving,
Sadly we will not be leaving even if we get a Brexit vote.
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You do realise this vote isn't about any of them don't you?
You are effectively voting not for Gove but for EU bureaucrats, this is your one and only chance.
In the event of an OUT vote Boris would be favourite for Downing Street
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Does anyone know how the number of undecideds have changed (or not) over 1) the course of the offical campaign and 2) over the course of UKIP's much longer campaign?
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In the event of an OUT vote Boris would be favourite for Downing Street
Maybe but over the next 20 years you will have 4 chances to kick the Tories out, you will not be able to vote out the EU bureaucrats.
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Maybe but over the next 20 years you will have 4 chances to kick the Tories out, you will not be able to vote out the EU bureaucrats.
Sorry Jak but there was/is no actual Brexit strategy. A referendum could be organised at anytime in the future. By which time a strategy and case may be forthcoming.
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Maybe but over the next 20 years you will have 4 chances to kick the Tories out, you will not be able to vote out the EU bureaucrats.
However, a Remain vote could eventuate in Britain and other EU nations pussing for th eradication of the Commissioners, and the pre-eminence of democratically elected MEPs. A Brexit vote would make that much less likely as it is generally the smaller nations who have the same debree of antagonism to the Commissioners as Britain.
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the £175million a week itself a large amount of cash,
No it isn't, it's a cup of coffee per person.
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No it isn't, it's a cup of coffee per person.
Looks like we're out, away from Brussels, going to bed now.
ippy
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Hi everyone,
Britain has always been closer, in language and culture, to the US, Australia and Canada than to its European neighbours.
Not sure how the exit will affect your daily lives. Travel to Europe may be affected somewhat. Not sure many Britishers study or migrate to Europe as compared to the US and Australia.
Anyway...good luck folks! All for the best IMO. :)
Cheer.
Sriram
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Hi everyone,
Britain has always been closer, in language and culture, to the US, Australia and Canada than to its European neighbours.
Not sure how the exit will affect your daily lives. Travel to Europe may be affected somewhat. Not sure many Britishers study or migrate to Europe as compared to the US and Australia.
Anyway...good luck folks! All for the best IMO. :)
Cheer.
Sriram
We're screwed.
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We're screwed.
It can't be that bad ...jeremyp! I am sure the 52% have thought out the repercussions too. Anyway....most of your lives will be 'life as usual', I guess.
Back to bible bashing then! ;)
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It can't be that bad ...jeremyp! I am sure the 52% have thought out the repercussions too. Anyway....most of your lives will be 'life as usual', I guess.
Back to bible bashing then! ;)
Sorry, Sriram. They haven't. They have been fired up by sloganising from rabble rousers. There has been an absence of rational debate. There has been alack of debate and a surplus of angry rhetoric and quarter truths. They have been told that exit from the EU will result in Britain becoming Never-Never Land ... and have believed it.
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It's just incredibly stupid, I can't think of a single advantage for anyone - except the traders, who I understand are currently making money 'hand over fist'
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Sorry, Sriram. They haven't. They have been fired up by sloganising from rabble rousers. There has been an absence of rational debate. There has been alack of debate and a surplus of angry rhetoric and quarter truths. They have been told that exit from the EU will result in Britain becoming Never-Never Land ... and have believed it.
See where atheism takes you!! ;)
But seriously.....
Now...come on HH!! You guys built an empire all by yourselves! You don't need the EU....! Cheer up! :)
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See where atheism takes you!! ;)
But the Church of England has been characterised as the Tory Party at prayer. And Brexit is largely a right-wing Conservative project.
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But the Church of England has been characterised as the Tory Party at prayer. And Brexit is largely a right-wing Conservative project.
I was joking HH. :D
But I still feel its all Dawkin's fault. Maybe you people should start going to church after all!
Anyway...more countries could follow. So...you'll have company.
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It can't be that bad ...jeremyp!
Yes it can. The Pound has already crashed.
I am sure the 52% have thought out the repercussions too.
No, they just thought about how much they want to keep Johnny Foreigner out.
Anyway....most of your lives will be 'life as usual', I guess.
I predict there will be a recession and many people will lose their jobs.
I currently have a contract with a large foreign company. Many of its employees are worried that a Leave vote means the company will shift all of its operations to Germany.
So no, it will not be life as usual.
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Yes it can. The Pound has already crashed.
No, they just thought about how much they want to keep Johnny Foreigner out.
I predict there will be a recession and many people will lose their jobs.
I currently have a contract with a large foreign company. Many of its employees are worried that a Leave vote means the company will shift all of its operations to Germany.
So no, it will not be life as usual.
Sorry to hear that jeremyp. But as I said...you guys built an empire by yourselves.
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The French are asking for a referendum, I believe.
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Omg!
I didn't expect that this morning!
Now what?
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When we joined the EU we had lots of factories and manufacturing industries.
They have nearly all gone.
We are a different country now than that which joined the EU.
I wonder how many companies will pull out of the U.K as a result of leave?
I voted remain and had a bit of a shock when I woke up.
They used to say Britain was a nation of shopkeepers, but we have lost a lot of our industries and small businesses, instead of shopkeepers we are more a nation of office workers, somehow we have to get some of that manufacturing industry back.
We have to have something to trade........... :o it's not healthy IMO to just trade things like services in financial services. We need something to export.
A lot more somethings to export.
Plus we are at variance with Scotland's vote. That's not good.
I hope Jeremy and others don't lose their jobs.
:(
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Dear Little Britain,
Well F*** Me :( :( Time for the sack clothe and ashes, woe is us.
Gonnagle.
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Saddened by the news; want to apologise that my confidence in the commonsense of the British (sorry English and Welsh) electorate was misplaced when I predicted a Remain vote 18 - 24 months ago.
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When we joined the EU we had lots of factories and manufacturing industries.
They have nearly all gone.
We are a different country now than that which joined the EU.
I wonder how many companies will pull out of the U.K as a result of leave?
I voted remain and had a bit of a shock when I woke up.
They used to say Britain was a nation of shopkeepers, but we have lost a lot of our industries and small businesses, instead of shopkeepers we are more a nation of office workers, somehow we have to get some of that manufacturing industry back.
We have to have something to trade........... :o it's not healthy IMO to just trade things like services in financial services. We need something to export.
A lot more somethings to export.
Plus we are at variance with Scotland's vote. That's not good.
I hope Jeremy and others don't lose their jobs.
:(
Unfortunately many of our large manufacturers are foreign owned, but even our own companies like Rolls Royce need free access to the EU market. If we can't get a good deal in place many of these companies will 'down-size' their UK operations or move-out altogether.
And all the time that there is uncertainty, our economy is haemorrhaging.
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Dear Little Britain,
Well F*** Me :( :( Time for the sack clothe and ashes, woe is us.
Gonnagle.
I wonder how long it'll be before the only element of the present UK to be in the EU (if that body survives) is N. Ireland?
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I wonder how long it'll be before the only element of the present UK to be in the EU (if that body survives) is N. Ireland?
I've heard renewed calls for a 'United Ireland' - I wonder how far that one will go?
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Dear World,
Mr Cameron is off, a new Prime Minister by October, Boris will be our next PM, well that's nice :( :( >:(
Gonnagle.
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Dear World,
Mr Cameron is off, a new Prime Minister by October, Boris will be our next PM, well that's nice :( :( >:(
Gonnagle.
God no! not Boris!
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The next agenda, other than the brexit stuff, should be preportional representation.
ippy
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Dear ippy,
The next agenda, other than the brexit stuff, should be preportional representation.
Your post made me smile, look to the future, another referendum, that's nice :( :(
Gonnagle.
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Dear World,
Mr Cameron is off, a new Prime Minister by October, Boris will be our next PM, well that's nice :( :( >:(
Gonnagle.
I wonder who will put their names forward to be the next PM? I reckon that the following might wish to do so.
Boris
Gove
Ian Duncan Smith
Michael Fallon
Theresa May
Philip Hammond
Sajid Javid
George Osborne
I think Javid and Osborne would be the best of a bad job!
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Reasonable list, Floo. Another likely candidate is Stephen Crabb. I can't help but think that it will be won by a Brexit supporter.
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Dear Mods,
Will we have a sticky for the Scottish Referendum, it's happening folks, I have just listened to Nicola Sturgeon, it's on. :o :o
Gonnagle.
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Dear Mods,
Will we have a sticky for the Scottish Referendum, it's happening folks, I have just listened to Nicola Sturgeon, it's on. :o :o
Gonnagle.
To be honest, I don't blame her.
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Dear Leavers,
How's it goin!! Me old china plates, Nicola hit it on the head, you were ignored by Labour and shafted by the Tories, she knows why you voted to leave. ;)
Gonnagle.
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Well, Frank Field has said that Labour voters are protesting against globalization. I think to that you can add austerity and immigration. Whether they will get a reduction in any of them is a moot point, under Boris or Gove or whoever. If there is a recession, maybe more.
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When we joined the EU we had lots of factories and manufacturing industries.
They have nearly all gone.
Not true. British manufacturing has enjoyed steady growth since the war (excluding a couple of blips during recessions).
I hope Jeremy and others don't lose their jobs.
I'll be OK. My contract here finishes today anyway. Next week I'm off to Brussels. Hopefully the hotel staff won't be spitting in my food. The employees here might be OK too, but there is serious uncertainty.
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I wonder who will put their names forward to be the next PM? I reckon that the following might wish to do so.
Boris
Gove
Ian Duncan Smith
Michael Fallon
Theresa May
Philip Hammond
Sajid Javid
George Osborne
I think Javid and Osborne would be the best of a bad job!
Osborne is finished.
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Reasonable list, Floo. Another likely candidate is Stephen Crabb. I can't help but think that it will be won by a Brexit supporter.
Sad but probably true, unless things go really pear shaped in the next month or two!
I see two Labour MPs have called for a no confidence vote where Corbyn is concerned. His lacklustre performance certainly didn't help the Remain camp!
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Osborne is finished.
Osborne made the fatal mistake of telling people an unpalatable truth.
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Osborne made the fatal mistake of telling people an unpalatable truth.
Missed that - he's finished because Brexit
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Missed that - he's finished because Brexit
Yes but that is because the truth that he struggled to tell was not believed.
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The saddest thing I've seen, already mentioned by blue, is that the young voted fairly heavily for Remain, while older people voted for Leave. They will be dead, while the young will have to live with the decisions that the elderly made.
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The saddest thing I've seen, already mentioned by blue, is that the young voted fairly heavily for Remain, while older people voted for Leave. They will be dead, while the young will have to live with the decisions that the elderly made.
I jokingly said some time ago, that people over 70 should not be allowed a vote on this.
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The saddest thing I've seen, already mentioned by blue, is that the young voted fairly heavily for Remain, while older people voted for Leave. They will be dead, while the young will have to live with the decisions that the elderly made.
At least the young have the option of emigrating, the old will probably have to live the rest of their lives with the consequences of their actions.
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The saddest thing I've seen, already mentioned by blue, is that the young voted fairly heavily for Remain, while older people voted for Leave. They will be dead, while the young will have to live with the decisions that the elderly made.
As Sean Lock put it when talking of the referendum.
''That's another turd that generation have left on the doorstep of history''
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The saddest thing I've seen, already mentioned by blue, is that the young voted fairly heavily for Remain, while older people voted for Leave. They will be dead, while the young will have to live with the decisions that the elderly made.
It looks horribly like the UK (if it still exists) will have to go cap in hand & ask for readmission in ten years time, on other countries terms.
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I have dual British and Irish Nationality. I am pleased I obtained Irish nationality in 2008 as I could do so. It might come in useful in the future, in view of the deep proverbial the UK is likely to be in!
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I jokingly said some time ago, that people over 70 should not be allowed a vote on this.
I'm over 70 - and in general terms I agree.
I also think that when it comes to important constitutional issues and that very unBritish device the referendum is used that the trigger for change should be either more than 50% of the people entitled to vote or more than 66.6% of the turnout.
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I'm over 70 - and in general terms I agree.
I also think that when it comes to important constitutional issues and that very unBritish device the referendum is used that the trigger for change should be either more than 50% of the people entitled to vote or more than 66.6% of the turnout.
Agreed. Every organisation that I have ever joined has required 66.6% to approve a constitutional change.
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I have dual British and Irish Nationality. I am pleased I obtained Irish nationality in 2008 as I could do so. It might come in useful in the future, in view of the deep proverbial the UK is likely to be in!
You have no loyalty to the uk and its people then?
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Saddened by the news; want to apologise that my confidence in the commonsense of the British (sorry English and Welsh) electorate was misplaced when I predicted a Remain vote 18 - 24 months ago.
You obviously haven't had sufficient contact with your prayer groups then!
::) ::) ::)
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Missed that - he's finished because Brexit
Yep.
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I don't think it's very democratic for the losing side to demand a re-vote, because they don't like the result.
I voted remain and it lost, now we have to get on with it, and show some backbone.
We, as a group of people, have to put our differences aside and knuckle down to it.
The only people that can make it work is us.
It is, what it is.
We need a direction now, we need to get the best trading deal we can from Europe and we need to show what we are made of.
We need to win back the respect of Europe.
We need to stop whinging and demanding a resit.
It's time to move on, and support each other.
Refuse to take up offers from call centres based abroad, support our local small businesses, stop buying cheap goods from China etc, and buy quality goods from the uk.
We need to support each other.
A re vote isn't democratic.
It's pathetic.
I'm not happy now crawling and grovelling back to the E U just because some of my fellow remain voters can't accept democracy.
It is, what it is.
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At least the young have the option of emigrating, the old will probably have to live the rest of their lives with the consequences of their actions.
You forget, part of the reason for doing this is to control immigration. There's no reason now for other EU countries to let our emigrants in.
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You have no loyalty to the uk and its people then?
Why be loyal to people who have just destroyed the UK?
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I don't think it's very democratic for the losing side to demand a re-vote, because they don't like the result.
Who is demanding a revote?
I voted remain and it lost, now we have to get on with it, and show some backbone.
There's nothing wrong about being very angry with the fuckwits who did this to us.
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You have no loyalty to the uk and its people then?
When it comes to survival, fight or flight are two of the basic instincts and they probably test loyalty.
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Given that already the BREXIT side have admitted their untruths during the campaign - namely that 350 million WON'T go to the NHS (Nigel Farage) and that we will still have free movement of people (DAniel Hannon MEP) I think a revote is the least they could do.
People were seriously misled by the Leave campaign.
Whereas the Remain campaign said that Sterling would take a big hit (true already) that the EU would not be at all friendly to us re negotiations (true already) that there would be instability in the markets (true already). Oh and we are now not as big an economy as we were 48 hours ago.
So Remain didn't actually mislead us - but Leave did on the evidence so far.
Rose - one could argue that it is anti-democratic to have lied over such an important and hugely influential decision in terms of our living standards and economic opportunities.
Personally a revote is the least I would want - I would then like to see Boris, Nigel and co up on charges of treason!
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Who is demanding a revote?
There's nothing wrong about being very angry with the fuckwits who did this to us.
It's a democracy, we now need to unite and move on, not behave like spoilt little children having a tantrum.
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Given that already the BREXIT side have admitted their untruths during the campaign - namely that 350 million WON'T go to the NHS (Nigel Farage) and that we will still have free movement of people (DAniel Hannon MEP) I think a revote is the least they could do.
People were seriously misled by the Leave campaign.
Whereas the Remain campaign said that Sterling would take a big hit (true already) that the EU would not be at all friendly to us re negotiations (true already) that there would be instability in the markets (true already). Oh and we are now not as big an economy as we were 48 hours ago.
So Remain didn't actually mislead us - but Leave did on the evidence so far.
Rose - one could argue that it is anti-democratic to have lied over such an important and hugely influential decision in terms of our living standards and economic opportunities.
Personally a revote is the least I would want - I would then like to see Boris, Nigel and co up on charges of treason!
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I agree there appears to have been a lot of misinformation where the Leave bunch were concerned. If there was another referendum tomorrow I suspect the result might be to remain!
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Why be loyal to people who have just destroyed the UK?
Because they are my countrymen even if I don't agree with their choices.
IMO we now have to make this work, somehow.
We're not destroyed yet, we are well away from being destroyed.
ATM the doom and gloom is imaginary.
We have to deal with things as they come.
I don't believe in bailing out the minute the going gets tough, not really.
We need to encourage small businesses now and support them by buying their goods so they can get in a good place to export stuff.
It may take a while, and it might get rough, but I believe we can do it.
We need to do it, because the future generations need it.
If they ever decided further on in the future to undo this, we need to be a desirable country to rejoin the EU, one strong enough to negotiate a good re entry.
I think we owe it to the younger generation to at least try.
Everyone needs to find little ways of making it work.
The better we cope, the better off we are should the future generations ever want to reverse it.
We have to all get on board and make it work, somehow.
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It's a democracy, we now need to unite and move on, not behave like spoilt little children having a tantrum.
If it were practical I'd go away and let the people who brought us to this mess deal with it.
I'm very angry about this Jakswan. Don't make it worse by belittling how I feel.
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If it were practical I'd go away and let the people who brought us to this mess deal with it.
I'm very angry about this Jakswan. Don't make it worse by belittling how I feel.
Spot on Jeremy.
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If it were practical I'd go away and let the people who brought us to this mess deal with it.
I'm very angry about this Jakswan. Don't make it worse by belittling how I feel.
Be angry with remain because their arguments lost.
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Why be loyal to people who have just destroyed the UK?
I'd charge the bastards with treason!
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Who is demanding a revote?
There's nothing wrong about being very angry with the fuckwits who did this to us.
There was someone interviewed on the BBC this morning, demanding one.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/brexit-petition-for-second-eu-referendum-so-popular-the-government-sites-crashing-a7099996.html
About half a million people are demanding one.
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Be angry with remain because their arguments lost.
I think the BBC have a lot to answer for. In the name of impartiality they gave equal weight to obvious truths and obvious lies.
I think there should be an inquiry.
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Be angry with remain because their arguments lost.
No. Leave lied.
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When it comes to survival, fight or flight are two of the basic instincts and they probably test loyalty.
I guess I'm a fighter then :) ;)
Fight to make the best of it that I can.
I think we owe it to the young folks, to make it work.
Even if we didn't vote for it.
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Because they are my countrymen even if I don't agree with their choices.
This is the problem, unwavering loyalty to idiots just because they were born in the same geographical land mass.
I'm English, British (although this term may become obsolete), European and a human being. We've just delivered a huge kick in the teeth other fellow human beings in Europe. I feel more one of them than one of Jack Knave or Jakswan right now.
IMO we now have to make this work, somehow.
Please stop being so patronising.
We're not destroyed yet, we are well away from being destroyed.
The UK will be destroyed. There's no doubt that Scotland will vote for independence within the next five years.
ATM the doom and gloom is imaginary.
No, it's happening right now. Look at the financial markets.
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Be angry with remain because their arguments lost.
No. They always had the best arguments.
I'll be angry with the people that bought the shitty xenophobic line of Nigel Farage and his ilk. I'll be angry with that fucking idiot the BBC found who voted leave and then was shocked that his vote actually counted for something.
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It's a democracy, we now need to unite and move on, not behave like spoilt little children having a tantrum.
Yes I'm with you on that one :)
It's done now.
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There was someone interviewed on the BBC this morning, demanding one.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/brexit-petition-for-second-eu-referendum-so-popular-the-government-sites-crashing-a7099996.html
About half a million people are demanding one.
I stand corrected.
There are over a million signatures on it now.
Does anybody know if it is true that there is a clause in the referendum bill that states a second referendum could take place if the turn out is less than 75%?
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I guess I'm a fighter then :) ;)
The best thing to fight for i to get the decision reversed.
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A columnist in one of the Scottish papers this morning suggests that delaying the Article 50 notification to start the exit process until October, so as to allow Cameron to be replaced, is deliberate so that if events in the coming weeks show that 'Leave' really is madness it allows the incoming PM the option to call (if the support is sufficient in Westminster) a snap GE with a manifesto of setting aside the referendum result and not proceeding with 'Leave'.
Ordinarily this would sound like a conspiracy theory - but these are 'interesting times', as they say.
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No. They always had the best arguments.
I'll be angry with the people that bought the shitty xenophobic line of Nigel Farage and his ilk. I'll be angry with that fucking idiot the BBC found who voted leave and then was shocked that his vote actually counted for something.
Subjectively you thought the arguments were the best, the arguments had to convince a majority to remain, objectively they were not good enough. Your side might have lost a few when you started calling anyone who disagreed names.
You have to persuade in a democracy.
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I would rather have stayed but remain lost in a democratic process. I cannot believe people would try to overturn that as they do not like it or disagree with it.
What sort of democratic process do you believe in?
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No. Leave lied.
I'm cross with David Cameron because he seems to like giving people votes that IMO are destructive to this country.
I didn't agree with the government giving Scotland the chance to become independent and fortunately for him they didn't.
However he has overstepped the mark with allowing our country to vote on the EU membership, when a lot of the people here are so unsure of the facts about the EU that they can be put in the position of being potentially duped by one side.
I blame our present government ( if I'm going to blame anyone) for allowing us to vote with the level of ignorance that is common.
It should never have happened, IMO.
Now to top it off, we might lose Scotland as well.
I don't think our government and David Cameron have taken the best actions, to do the best for this country.
Holding the referendum left us wide open to all sorts of claims.
A lot more thought needed to have gone into it.
Taking into account:
Ignorance of the population of what the EU actually stands for and how it works.
The opinions of the different age groups.
How different areas feel ie Scotland
What the motivations are for leaving actually are, and can they be solved another way?
Are the leave reasons anything to do with membership of the EU?
We voted to leave altogether, but was there another alternative, not quite as dramatic but to distance us from the EU without Brexit.
I hold the government responsible, and David Cameron especially, because they allowed a referendum with a level of ignorance that made the arguments of David Farage and the rest of them viable.
It's the decision makers I hold responsible.
For allowing a vote in the first place and not being responsible enough to ensure lies or misinformation didn't fall on fertile minds.
We were not ready for this vote, IMO.
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A columnist in one of the Scottish papers this morning suggests that delaying the Article 50 notification to start the exit process until October, so as to allow Cameron to be replaced, is deliberate so that if events in the coming weeks show that 'Leave' really is madness it allows the incoming PM the option to call (if the support is sufficient in Westminster) a snap GE with a manifesto of setting aside the referendum result and not proceeding with 'Leave'.
Ordinarily this would sound like a conspiracy theory - but these are 'interesting times', as they say.
Yes, but what a bad thing to do in a supposedly democratic country.
Not only will they find Scotland have got fed up with politicians in London and want out, but that the rest of the U.K. are disillusioned and have no confidence in the Government in London.
No point in giving the country a vote if they just cast it aside because those few " ruling" us don't like it.
That's like Scotland voting to leave and then ignoring the fact they voted to leave.
If someone is offered a vote, it should be respected, even if it's not liked.
>:(
The more I hear about our politicians and what someone in the gov in London is thinking of doing the less trustworthy they look by the minute.
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Dear Rose,
Loyalty to the UK ( although I prefer Great Britain ) where does my loyalty lie, well in 2014 I voted my Loyalty, I told my fellow Brits I wanted to remain part of Great Britain, why?
I Love this little island we all occupy, I love our history ( then again it is soaked in blood ) I loved the fact that we are mostly a Christian country ( culturally ) I loved the fact that I was part of a nation that celebrated and loved cricket, although I reserved the right to make fun of that silly game but I felt proud to be part of that.
I loved the fact that I could walk down my high st and see the Union flag flying, I could say, yes I am part of that, my father fought for that flag.
I was brought up in a very socialist household but one which respected the Monarchy, I was taught that my fellow brothers in Liverpool, Manchester, Birmingham, London would stand shoulder to shoulder with me in common cause.
I loved the fact that this little island came up with a thing called the NHS, if you were sick, no matter cred, colour, religion, you would have free treatment.
I love the fact that I can walk the streets of Glasgow and see evidence of our history intermingled with British history, the Scots played a big part in creating what we are today, when the English, Welsh, Irish celebrate we too could also join in that celebration, we are part of that thing we call Great Britain.
But now I have watched as my fellow Brits have been pushed and bullied into making, for me, a terrible decision, Great Britain for me was a nation which had open arms, we embraced everyone who came to our shores, but something happened yesterday, no one can tell me that immigration was not a big factor in this whole mess.
Scotland voted to remain, to embrace that part which put the Great in Great Britain, so where does my loyalty lie? with my old style of thinking, Queen, Country, the Union flag or with a country ( Scotland ) that for me is still culturally Christian.
Right now as I type this, I haven't a clue, I see Scotland as outward looking and England and Wales as inward looking, should I rely on my old style thinking, face the future with my fellow Brits who have just voted to pull up the drawbridge or back Scotland who I think are looking to secure a bright future for our children and their children's children.
I think my loyalty should lie with our future generations.
There!! I got that off my chest, time for crispy bacon on very Scottish rolls.
Gonnagle.
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I have just signed the petition.
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There are those Gonnagle, who would argue to leave the over regulation of the EU and look out towards the rest of the world is putting us where we used to be.
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There are those Gonnagle, who would argue to leave the over regulation of the EU and look out towards the rest of the world is putting us where we used to be.
As in where we used to be in 1066?
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No, not 1066. Just trading with the rest of the world free of EU regulations, tarrifs etc.
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I have just signed the petition.
Which petition?
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Gonnagle,
Great post. Was thinking about this earlier; Scotland has as much land as England but a relatively tiny population. In contrast, England had to leave the EU, because it is full - we need to have authority over immigration law (even if for some time immigration stays high).
So please don't say we have made a terrible decision. It may be right for you to leave the UK, but I don't think it would be right to leave on that basis.
Edit: On the other hand, I guess Scotland has a lot less inhabitable land than England, so maybe its population is high in that respect.
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Which petition?
The one you posted, DUH!
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The one you posted, DUH!
I posted a couple.
One was the London independance one, the other was for a re vote.
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I posted a couple.
One was the London independance one, the other was for a re vote.
Re vote, sorry I didn't see the other.
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Dear Rose,
Loyalty to the UK ( although I prefer Great Britain ) where does my loyalty lie, well in 2014 I voted my Loyalty, I told my fellow Brits I wanted to remain part of Great Britain, why?
I Love this little island we all occupy, I love our history ( then again it is soaked in blood ) I loved the fact that we are mostly a Christian country ( culturally ) I loved the fact that I was part of a nation that celebrated and loved cricket, although I reserved the right to make fun of that silly game but I felt proud to be part of that.
I loved the fact that I could walk down my high st and see the Union flag flying, I could say, yes I am part of that, my father fought for that flag.
I was brought up in a very socialist household but one which respected the Monarchy, I was taught that my fellow brothers in Liverpool, Manchester, Birmingham, London would stand shoulder to shoulder with me in common cause.
I loved the fact that this little island came up with a thing called the NHS, if you were sick, no matter cred, colour, religion, you would have free treatment.
I love the fact that I can walk the streets of Glasgow and see evidence of our history intermingled with British history, the Scots played a big part in creating what we are today, when the English, Welsh, Irish celebrate we too could also join in that celebration, we are part of that thing we call Great Britain.
But now I have watched as my fellow Brits have been pushed and bullied into making, for me, a terrible decision, Great Britain for me was a nation which had open arms, we embraced everyone who came to our shores, but something happened yesterday, no one can tell me that immigration was not a big factor in this whole mess.
Scotland voted to remain, to embrace that part which put the Great in Great Britain, so where does my loyalty lie? with my old style of thinking, Queen, Country, the Union flag or with a country ( Scotland ) that for me is still culturally Christian.
Right now as I type this, I haven't a clue, I see Scotland as outward looking and England and Wales as inward looking, should I rely on my old style thinking, face the future with my fellow Brits who have just voted to pull up the drawbridge or back Scotland who I think are looking to secure a bright future for our children and their children's children.
I think my loyalty should lie with our future generations.
There!! I got that off my chest, time for crispy bacon on very Scottish rolls.
Gonnagle.
🌹 :)
I'm sure you will vote for what you think is best Gonnagle.
It's sounding more and more depressing by the minute :(
The rest of Europe seem to want it to start ASAP and a reporter live in Berlin is saying they have said David Cameron should either get on with it , or get a new prime mister within days :o
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I have just signed the petition.
My mate is like that when I beat him at FIFA. - "Best out of three?"
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A columnist in one of the Scottish papers this morning suggests that delaying the Article 50 notification to start the exit process until October, so as to allow Cameron to be replaced, is deliberate so that if events in the coming weeks show that 'Leave' really is madness it allows the incoming PM the option to call (if the support is sufficient in Westminster) a snap GE with a manifesto of setting aside the referendum result and not proceeding with 'Leave'.
Ordinarily this would sound like a conspiracy theory - but these are 'interesting times', as they say.
I think that is correct. There really isn't any reason to delay starting the exit process right now unless you want to give everybody a chance to have second thoughts.
I think, if Boris gets in, he'll try to find a way to renege on the referendum result.
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Subjectively you thought the arguments were the best
Objectively the arguments are the best. Subjectively, the Leave arguments, although lies (or perhaps because they are lies) were more compelling.
You have to persuade in a democracy.
Yes you do and Remain lost. But there is no law of physics that says the majority can't make a really stupid decision, as they have done here.
Yesterday, the value knocked off stocks and shares was the equivalent of 40 years of EU payments. That knifed of puts the pathetic rantings of the Leave campaign in perspective.
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I would rather have stayed but remain lost in a democratic process. I cannot believe people would try to overturn that as they do not like it or disagree with it.
What sort of democratic process do you believe in?
It was the wrong decision. Of course you try to overturn it (by democratic means).
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No, not 1066. Just trading with the rest of the world free of EU regulations, tarrifs etc.
Um. Do you understand that the EU is what allowed us to trade with a lot of Europe without tariffs? Those will all be coming back now.
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Which petition?
The one to ask parliament to trigger the clause in the referendum law that allows us to have a revote if the turn out is less than 70% and the majority is less than 60%.
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215
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The one you posted, DUH!
You mean the one I posted?
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All I see is scare tactics from the bitter remain camp saying that the UK is fucked. It ain't. Europe will continue to trade with the UK as it can't afford not to and it can also trade freely with Russia, which the EU can't. Short term repercussions yes, but in the long term better off. Hopefully other countries will be encouraged to do the same.
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You mean the one I posted?
You asked me who was asking for a re vote
#231 Floo could have read either.
http://www.religionethics.co.uk/index.php?topic=12177.msg621912#msg621912
I don't approve of a re vote because I think it's undemocratic.
It's a way of undermining a democratic process the results of which others don't agree with.
If we don't like Scotland's vote for independance should we be able to demand they do it again, after a good talking too?
It's not a trend I want to see become the norm.
The vote is just that, the vote.
I won't be supporting any calls for a re vote.
It is what it is.
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All I see is scare tactics from the bitter remain camp saying that the UK is fucked. It ain't. Europe will continue to trade with the UK as it can't afford not to and it can also trade freely with Russia, which the EU can't. Short term repercussions yes, but in the long term better off. Hopefully other countries will be encouraged to do the same.
Hmmmmm!!!
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Quite! I couldn't give a fig about trading with Russia, frankly. Who does?
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Quite! I couldn't give a fig about trading with Russia, frankly. Who does?
What goods do they have that we would want?
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Quite! I couldn't give a fig about trading with Russia, frankly. Who does?
Shoot yourself in the foot.
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What goods do they have that we would want?
Vodka, oil, gas,
The petroleum industry in Russia is one of the largest in the world. Russia has the largest reserves, and is the largest exporter, of natural gas. It has the second largest coal reserves, the eighth largest oil reserves, and is the largest exporter of oil in the world in absolute numbers.[citation needed] Per capita oil production in Russia, though, is not that high. As of 2007, Russia was producing 69.603 bbl/day per 1,000 people, much less than Canada (102.575 bbl/day), Saudi Arabia (371.363 bbl/day), or Norway (554.244 bbl/day), but more than two times the USA (28.083 bbl/day) or the UK (27.807 bbl/day).[1
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Russia
I wouldn't write them off.
We might need to trade :)
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Dear ippy,
T
Your post made me smile, look to the future, another referendum, that's nice :( :(
Gonnagle.
What's wrong with Gonners, for example only, say there are 20% of people in the U K that support and vote for "The Remove Pimples" political party here in the UK, why shouldn't they be represented by 20% of the seats available in the Commons and pro rata for other political parties (No offence intended to those with pimples).
At present if anyone lives in a majority party area, whichever party it happens to be, if you live there and your ideas oppose your area's dominant party how can you as an individual ever have your outlook represented, while this dominant party persists in that area?
I have difficulty, in spite of my reasonable sense of humour to smile at this form of the status quo whether it's in place now or in the future; what's to smile about the first past the post system compared to proportional representation?
ippy
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It was the wrong decision. Of course you try to overturn it (by democratic means).
In your opinion it was the wrong decision.
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Um. Do you understand that the EU is what allowed us to trade with a lot of Europe without tariffs? Those will all be coming back now.
Yes I do, and while they may apply trarrifs to us, we can do the same to them. I am sure the people with expertise in such things can reach an amicable agreement suitable to both sides. After all, they sell stuff to us as well.
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Dear ippy,
A vote on proportional representation, another vote on Independence, tell you what! keep me out of it, I am to thick to be allowed to vote >:( >:(
Gonnagle.
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I would rather have stayed but remain lost in a democratic process. I cannot believe people would try to overturn that as they do not like it or disagree with it.
What sort of democratic process do you believe in?
Trying to overturn a decision by arguing against it and persuading those you disagree with to change their minds is democracy, isn't it?
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Yes it is. There are some who were so certain we would Remain, they didn't bother to vote. Their fault I suppose. Still it would be interesting to see what happened if there was another vote soon. Obviously we can't be forever having referendums and changing our minds but maybe just this once. Can't see it happening though.
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All I see is scare tactics from the bitter remain camp saying that the UK is fucked. It ain't.
The UK is fucked. There will be another referendum in Scotland now and they will vote to leave the UK. The UK is fucked.
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Quite! I couldn't give a fig about trading with Russia, frankly. Who does?
I'd be more concerned about Russia's expansionism than trade with them. Putin is probably delighted about yesterday's result.
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Yes I do, and while they may apply trarrifs to us, we can do the same to them.
You don't understand the way economics works. If they apply tariffs to us and we retaliate with tariffs on them, everybody loses because the trade doesn't happen.
I am sure the people with expertise in such things can reach an amicable agreement suitable to both sides. After all, they sell stuff to us as well.
The politicians don't sell stuff to us and while 40% of our trade is with the EU, 40% of the EU's trade is not with us. Politically, it would be very bad for the leaders of the EU for the UK to be seen to do well out of this, so they won't let us.
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All I see is scare tactics from the bitter remain camp saying that the UK is fucked. It ain't. Europe will continue to trade with the UK as it can't afford not to and it can also trade freely with Russia, which the EU can't. Short term repercussions yes, but in the long term better off. Hopefully other countries will be encouraged to do the same.
ad_o,
You sound as if you would be fine with Russian domination over Finland?
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You don't understand the way economics works. If they apply tariffs to us and we retaliate with tariffs on them, everybody loses because the trade doesn't happen.
If you want trade then you negotiate these things. I know the outers told a lot of lies or half truths but one which makes sense is that all the European companies that sell to us, be it cars or cheese will not want to lose the UK market.
The politicians don't sell stuff to us and while 40% of our trade is with the EU, 40% of the EU's trade is not with us. Politically, it would be very bad for the leaders of the EU for the UK to be seen to do well out of this, so they won't let us.
Time will tell.
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Here's a ray of sunshine amongst the gloom and doom.
http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/trump-baffles-bizarre-appearance-scotland
Donald Trump congratulates Scotland on the referendum result. He is also delighted because the currency crash means more Americans will want to come over and use his golf course.
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Trying to overturn a decision by arguing against it and persuading those you disagree with to change their minds is democracy, isn't it?
Of course it is. That is the process we have just been through. The decision to overturn the one where we had a referendum and joined the EEC has been made.
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If you want trade then you negotiate these things.
If we want trade with the EU, the best thing would have been to stay in it.
I know the outers told a lot of lies or half truths but one which makes sense is that all the European companies that sell to us, be it cars or cheese will not want to lose the UK market.
No they won't by they will not be in charge of the negotiations, the European politicians will and they will do anything they can to stop anybody else leaving the EU. European companies will go along with the politicians because, while they currently stand to lose trade in the UK, the destruction of the EU means losing trade in 26 other countries too.
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Of course it is. That is the process we have just been through. The decision to overturn the one where we had a referendum and joined the EEC has been made.
And there's no reason we can't change our mind again. That's democracy.
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If we want trade with the EU, the best thing would have been to stay in it.
I agree with you.
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If you want trade then you negotiate these things. I know the outers told a lot of lies or half truths but one which makes sense is that all the European companies that sell to us, be it cars or cheese will not want to lose the UK market.
Time will tell.
Taking cars as an example - whatever tariff the UK puts on German cars we will carry on buying BMWs, Audis and Mercedes. If the EU puts tariffs on UK cars, the factories making those: Hondas, Toyotas, and Nissans will probably end up moving to within the EU in order not to lose the market. They would only stay in the UK if labor costs are significantly lower here, low enough to cancel out the EU tariff.
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And there's no reason we can't change our mind again. That's democracy.
Not at all. There is always someone that will be well and truly pissed with the result of something or other so fill your boots, then the other 49% can be angry and we get a continual stream of referendums, political and social instability and more disenfranchised population then..., who knows.
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If the EU is running scared enough to make an example of the UK to stifle rumblings from within other member states about leaving then perhaps they should have a good hard look at themselves and ask the question why it is this happening. One size might fit all, but more often than not, it doesn't fit very well.
Rules are not for bending, unless you wanted Greece to join the club then its okay.
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All I see is scare tactics from the bitter remain camp saying that the UK is fucked. It ain't. Europe will continue to trade with the UK as it can't afford not to and it can also trade freely with Russia, which the EU can't. Short term repercussions yes, but in the long term better off. Hopefully other countries will be encouraged to do the same.
Before the referendum, everyone with a brain was pretty sure that there would be a serious and immediate negative impact on the economy - but such thoughts were dismissed as 'Project Fear' and a lot of people were naive enough to accept that.
Turns out things are quite a lot worse than 'Project Fear' was suggesting and if there is s silver lining - it is very well concealed.
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If the EU is running scared enough to make an example of the UK to stifle rumblings from within other member states about leaving then perhaps they should have a good hard look at themselves and ask the question why it is this happening. One size might fit all, but more often than not, it doesn't fit very well.
Rules are not for bending, unless you wanted Greece to join the club then its okay.
Yes, they should and probably will eventually. Unfortunately any long periods of uncertainty will have significant economic effect, hence the remarks about getting on with it rather than wait for a new PM before invoking Article 50. So, overall it was good for the UK that Cameron delayed... , Boris could delay further ... possibly long enough for the EU critics in the remaining 27 to get their oars in?
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Objectively the arguments are the best. Subjectively, the Leave arguments, although lies (or perhaps because they are lies) were more compelling.
Whatever.
In my opinion the EU meant there was a democratic deficit which will now be rectified. There were lies on both sides. Leave focused on the scare stuff, actually a reformed EU I would be quite happy to remain but that argument wasn't made.
My opinion was dismissed I was labelled xenophobic and you failed to convince me to change my vote.
Yes you do and Remain lost. But there is no law of physics that says the majority can't make a really stupid decision, as they have done here.
In your opinion.
Yesterday, the value knocked off stocks and shares was the equivalent of 40 years of EU payments. That knifed of puts the pathetic rantings of the Leave campaign in perspective.
The Uk government didn't lose that money.
Look there is a way back, get onto your MP and demand they ask for more reforms. You might get another shot, I'll give you a tip though don't try convince someone by hysterical name calling.
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If the EU is running scared enough to make an example of the UK to stifle rumblings from within other member states about leaving then perhaps they should have a good hard look at themselves and ask the question why it is this happening. One size might fit all, but more often than not, it doesn't fit very well.
I don't think there are many that would claim the EU is perfect but we had a choice to make it better or to run away. We ran away.
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In my opinion the EU meant there was a democratic deficit which will now be rectified.
But your opinion on this was comprehensively demolished.
There were lies on both sides.
The Remain campaign were accused of lying about how bad the effect on the economy would be. Currently they look to be right on the money.
Leave focused on the scare stuff, actually a reformed EU I would be quite happy to remain but that argument wasn't made.
I agree it is unfortunate that the Remain campaign didn't emphasise that staying in the EU doesn't mean we have to accept it for what it is now.
My opinion was dismissed I was labelled xenophobic
Your opinion was dismissed because it was comprehensively demolished. You demonstrated you had no clue about economics, how the leaders of the EU are chosen, or how serious the problem of immigration is.
You also seemed to think that the lives of British people are intrinsically worth more than those of other people, which justifies the xenophobic label.
Look there is a way back, get onto your MP and demand they ask for more reforms. You might get another shot, I'll give you a tip though don't try convince someone by hysterical name calling.
Honestly, I think you are immune to rational argument on this subject.
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But your opinion on this was comprehensively demolished.
No I voted leave.
The Remain campaign were accused of lying about how bad the effect on the economy would be. Currently they look to be right on the money.
Too early to tell.
I agree it is unfortunate that the Remain campaign didn't emphasise that staying in the EU doesn't mean we have to accept it for what it is now.
You didn't either.
Your opinion was dismissed because it was comprehensively demolished. You demonstrated you had no clue about economics, how the leaders of the EU are chosen, or how serious the problem of immigration is.
There you go, you dismissed an opinion but seemed to have forgotten that my opinion and millions like me was the prize.
You also seemed to think that the lives of British people are intrinsically worth more than those of other people, which justifies the xenophobic label.
Nope, strawman.
Honestly, I think you are immune to rational argument on this subject.
Well best put on your big boy pants and suck it up then.
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ad_o,
You sound as if you would be fine with Russian domination over Finland?
Who said that? I do, however, believe we should be on good terms with them (after all, they are our neighbour) and that we shouldn't be antagonising them as the EU and Nato seem determined to do. We should be trading with them, a vast potential market beneficial for both sides.
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No I voted leave.
Which was the wrong thing to do.
Saying you were right just because 52% of voters agree with you is argument ad populum.
The Bank of England has just allocated £250 billion to shore up the banks in case of financial instability caused by your vote. That's the equivalent of 30 years of EU contributions. Have you got anything to say about that and the likely loss of jobs due to companies moving to other parts of Europe. When are you going to admit that your decision has caused chaos and will likely lead to much hardship?
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Which was the wrong thing to do.
Saying you were right just because 52% of voters agree with you is argument ad populum.
The Bank of England has just allocated £250 billion to shore up the banks in case of financial instability caused by your vote. That's the equivalent of 30 years of EU contributions. Have you got anything to say about that and the likely loss of jobs due to companies moving to other parts of Europe. When are you going to admit that your decision has caused chaos and will likely lead to much hardship?
But Jeremy that's what a vote is, argument ad populum.
The most votes win.
It's a way of determining the correct action to take.
Otherwise we might as well live in a dictatorship
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But Jeremy that's what a vote is, argument ad popular.
The most votes win.
It's a way of determining the correct action to take.
No it isn't. It's a way of determining what action will be taken, it doesn't mean the chosen action is, in any way, correct.
Otherwise we might as well live in a dictatorship
If the tide of public opinion swings decisively towards remain in the period before we trigger article 50, why not change the decision?
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No it isn't. It's a way of determining what action will be taken, it doesn't mean the chosen action is, in any way, correct.
If the tide of public opinion swings decisively towards remain in the period before we trigger article 50, why not change the decision?
But it hasn't. I don't believe you. The tide of public opinion is still as it was.
It's all hype by some remain voters throwing their teddies out of the pram because remain lost and they can't cope with the reality of democracy.
If I hear one more dishonest and disingenuous suggestion from a remain supporter to enforce a vote they basically lost, I'm going to start to want to disown them.
That and the politicians implicit in it.
It's dishonourable.
It's embarrassing and pathetic.
Give it a rest!
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But it hasn't. I don't believe you. The tide of public opinion is still as it was.
It's all hype by some remain voters throwing there teddies out of the pram because remain lost and they can't cope with the reality of democracy.
If I hear one more dishonest and disingenuous suggestion from a remain supporter to enforce a vote they basically lost, I'm going to start to want to disown them.
That and the politicians implicit in it.
It's dishonerable.
It's embarrassing and pathetic.
Give it a rest!
He didn't say it had changed. I suggest you owe him an apology.
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He didn't say it had changed. I suggest you owe him an apology.
I don't, because if it hasn't changed he had no point to make and mine still stands!
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I don't, because if it hasn't changed he had no point to make.
you stated that he said that it had changed. He didn't. It may have been an error on your part but if you don't admit it as an error then you are just lying.
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But it hasn't. I don't believe you. The tide of public opinion is still as it was.
But the article 50 triggering is still months away. Plenty of time for things to change.
It's all hype by some remain voters throwing their teddies out of the pram because remain lost and they can't cope with the reality of democracy.
The reality of democracy is that sometimes bad decisions are made. The strength of democracy is that they can be reversed.
If I hear one more dishonest and disingenuous suggestion from a remain supporter to enforce a vote they basically lost, I'm going to start to want to disown them.
That and the politicians implicit in it.
It's dishonourable.
It's embarrassing and pathetic.
Your attitude is embarrassing and pathetic. This was a bad decision and we are all in for masses of pain - well all except the richest people. As things stand we have to go through with it, but please stop telling me to like it.
Give it a rest!
No, you give all this "we are all in this together" bullshit a rest. I'm really angry about what happened and your patronising attitude is only winding me up further.
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Which was the wrong thing to do.
In your opinion, my opinion dictates who I vote. You are free to offer arguments to change my opinion which you did by blindly asserting I'm wrong and calling me names.
Saying you were right just because 52% of voters agree with you is argument ad populum.
Never said that.
The Bank of England has just allocated £250 billion to shore up the banks in case of financial instability caused by your vote. That's the equivalent of 30 years of EU contributions. Have you got anything to say about that and the likely loss of jobs due to companies moving to other parts of Europe. When are you going to admit that your decision has caused chaos and will likely lead to much hardship?
The country's democratic decision, too early to say if there will chaos and hardship.
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Dear Rose,
The word is if Jeremy was asking if it changes, if the country see's that it has made a ghastly mistake, and so far that is what it looks like, early days of course, but I for one don't see any reason to just suck it up and accept it, I await Johnson, Gove or even Farage coming out and explaining "the fucking plan" and "the fucking plan" better be " a fucking awesome, terrific, stupendous plan".
I will accept that the absence of the above three is down to the fact that they are off getting hammered and celebrating, but I will expect them to be ship shape and Bristol fashion tomorrow or Tuesday to explain to us, the good people of the United Kingdom just what is "the fucking plan".
My apologies for all the swearing, but right now the very mention of the above three makes me want to spit. >:(
Gonnagle.
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Dear Rose,
The word is if Jeremy was asking if it changes, if the country see's that it has made a ghastly mistake, and so far that is what it looks like, early days of course, but I for one don't see any reason to just suck it up and accept it, I await Johnson, Gove or even Farage coming out and explaining "the fucking plan" and "the fucking plan" better be " a fucking awesome, terrific, stupendous plan".
I will accept that the absence of the above three is down to the fact that they are off getting hammered and celebrating, but I will expect them to be ship shape and Bristol fashion tomorrow or Tuesday to explain to us, the good people of the United Kingdom just what is "the fucking plan".
My apologies for all the swearing, but right now the very mention of the above three makes me want to spit. >:(
Gonnagle.
In many ways I'm with you Gonnagle.
If there was unrefutable evidence the vast majority wanted another vote, then I suppose we would have to do it and go by the result.
But I'm reluctant to believe everything I hear, because most of it sounds like the losers can't accept they lost.
You can't keep people voting till you get the answer you want.
IMO the government is responsible and have let us all down by allowing this vote to happen before there were clear ideas on paper of what the plan was going to be.
No one seemed to think it was going to happen, so no one bothered to think about what would happen if it did.
That's bad organisation.
The government should have put some thought into it, before we voted. Even if they didn't agree with th idea.
They have left us vunerable IMO.
Why it's ok to vote for independance or Brexit before you have some idea of how you are going to proceed ....... Is beyond me. ???
They should have an outline at least before people are asked to vote.
Perhaps we need something in our " constitution" that if the public are going to be offered a referendum of some sort, outline plans have to be made for all outcomes.
Politicians get paid enough to sort this...........
The leave side should have put through their suggestions and outline plan before we all got involved.
It's a right mess!
They couldn't organise a piss up at a brewery, the lot of em.
>:(
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In your opinion, my opinion dictates who I vote. You are free to offer arguments to change my opinion which you did by blindly asserting I'm wrong and calling me names.
Your memory is faulty. There was much rational argument offered by myself and Prof D but you ignored it all.
The country's democratic decision, too early to say if there will chaos and hardship.
You're already trying to pass the buck.
The chaos is already with us. I don't know if you'd noticed but the financial sector is in turmoil and nobody from Leave has stepped up to the plate to tell us what the plan is.
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Your memory is faulty. There was much rational argument offered by myself and Prof D but you ignored it all.
You're already trying to pass the buck.
The chaos is already with us. I don't know if you'd noticed but the financial sector is in turmoil and nobody from Leave has stepped up to the plate to tell us what the plan is.
There is no plan
https://m.youtube.com/?#/watch?v=HNe-yHr7uJc
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In your opinion, my opinion dictates who I vote. You are free to offer arguments to change my opinion which you did by blindly asserting I'm wrong and calling me names.
Never said that.
The country's democratic decision, too early to say if there will chaos and hardship.
Oh if only you guys had owned up to the possibility of that sooner.
Also UKIP would have asked for another referendum, Farage is on record as suggesting it so your appeal to democratic decision is a bit hollow.
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Anyone up for a referendum to bring back hanging?
I wonder what the result would be?
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Anyone up for a referendum to bring back hanging?
I wonder what the result would be?
They would not dare!
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Your memory is faulty. There was much rational argument offered by myself and Prof D but you ignored it all.
No i told you why I didn't find those arguments convincing and offered counter arguments. You and Davey just seemed to get angry.
If the vote had been the other way I would have been disappointed but accept we live in a democracy and moved on. I fully accept your view and you wish to remain, I'm just suggesting you are more likely to get that result by not being dismissive and throwing insults at the 52%.
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No i told you why I didn't find those arguments convincing and offered counter arguments. You and Davey just seemed to get angry.
No your counter arguments were faulty. Yes, we failed to convince you but the arguments we failed to convince you with were sound. Blame it on our communications skills or your intransigence: the arguments were correct.
If the vote had been the other way I would have been disappointed but accept we live in a democracy and moved on.
If the vote had been the other way, we would not now be drifting towards the rocks with nobody at the helm.
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No your counter arguments were faulty. Yes, we failed to convince you but the arguments we failed to convince you with were sound. Blame it on our communications skills or your intransigence: the arguments were correct.
The arguments failed to convince the electorate, blame them if you like but it achieves nothing. I don't really understand what you advocating for, pointless doing the debate over, its in the past now let it go.
If the vote had been the other way, we would not now be drifting towards the rocks with nobody at the helm.
Rhetoric.
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The arguments failed to convince the electorate, blame them if you like but it achieves nothing. I don't really understand what you advocating for, pointless doing the debate over, its in the past now let it go.
The debate still has a very, very long way to go. It most certainly isn't over.
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The arguments failed to convince the electorate, blame them if you like but it achieves nothing. I don't really understand what you advocating for, pointless doing the debate over, its in the past now let it go.
The arguments failed to convince, because the most of the media gave equal weight to outrageous lies as straightforward facts - even the BEEB utterly failed in this respect and some like the Express/Sun/Mail were guilty of gross distortion of the facts.
My wife used to work in the NHS and has a number of friends who still do - and they voted Leave because they actually believed that the NHS would get a giant slice of the £350 million per week!
I find it difficult to believe people can be so naive - but a lot are.
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The debate still has a very, very long way to go. It most certainly isn't over.
The debate of how to vote in the EU referendum 2016 is dead.
You might want to advocate for another referendum, renegotiation's (which you previously said were impossible and wouldn't argue for), for a Norway type deal, etc.
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The debate of how to vote in the EU referendum 2016 is dead.
But the next phase debate - namely what does Brexit actually look like, and do we have a positive mandate for that deal continues.
You might want to advocate for another referendum, renegotiation's (which you previously said were impossible and wouldn't argue for), for a Norway type deal, etc.
I'm not seeing any evidence that the EU is offering any change to the stated rules to keep us in. No sign of any concessions to prevent us leaving, which was what you claimed would be happening now if Leave one. I didn't think it would, because it would simply encourage others to threaten to jump ship if they felt they could cherry pick.
So actually what is happening from the EU side is exactly as I predicted.
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The Leave camp had little to no detail on how a Brexit would look; over the coming months/years that picture is going to become clearer by which time the electorate will be better informed and more able to pass judgement on their options. If it looks like we are going to be poorer as a nation, if it means decades of recession, if it means the departure of Scotland from the UK, then most people would vote Remain at that point. But if we have idealogues sold on Brexit running the country we probably won't be given a chance to have second thoughts on the matter.
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But the next phase debate - namely what does Brexit actually look like, and do we have a positive mandate for that deal continues.
A different debate though we seem to agree.
I'm not seeing any evidence that the EU is offering any change to the stated rules to keep us in. No sign of any concessions to prevent us leaving, which was what you claimed would be happening now if Leave one.
A lie please withdraw, to save you the effort i said if you want to stay in a reformed EU vote leave, it will offer reforms, if it doesn't it won't reform.
So with the debate over and your side losing what do you want to happen now?
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Rhetoric.
So you think everything is going fine at the moment do you?
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A different debate though we seem to agree.
A part of the same debate albeit more focussed. What post Brexit looked like was a major component of the earlier debate, but in a kind of everything to everyone, hypothetical manner. Now it is for earnest
A lie please withdraw, to save you the effort i said if you want to stay in a reformed EU vote leave, it will offer reforms, if it doesn't it won't reform.
So with the debate over and your side losing what do you want to happen now?
Where did I say anything about a reformed EU - I don't believe the EU will reform merely to keep us there. However I think we may well (and should) have an opportunity to compare a real (not hypothetical) Brexit deal with the current (not reformed) EU and choose finally which we want to opt for.
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The arguments failed to convince, because the most of the media gave equal weight to outrageous lies as straightforward facts - even the BEEB utterly failed in this respect and some like the Express/Sun/Mail were guilty of gross distortion of the facts.
I think that's one of the things that annoyed me most, especially about that Chris Mason. One advantage of going off to Australia on the 24th was that I didn't spend the next week thinking about it!
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How many people?
How many Emergency departments have been closed? How many immigrants came into the country? May be you choose to be blind to the truth but the truth doesn't go away.
In 2014 624,000 people immigrated to the UK in the year ending September 2014, do you think they never required medical attention or those others who came in any other year?
Do you not think that 624,000 people will not at some point require medical attention.
Believe me, the NHS is in far less danger from the EU than our own government. And if the Brexiters win and the government is taken over by rabid wing nuts like Michael Gove, it won't get any better.
Who exactly would have been representing us in the EU if not the same Government running our NHS? Does Michael Gove really have such immense power that he can please himself?
You are imprisoned by your own imaginations and fears.
Also, if we throw out all the EU citizens using the NHS, they'll throw out all the British citizens using other EU health services and guess what? They cost more than the EU citizens here do.
How did we manage all those years on holiday using private healthcare. When did people not get medical attention in our Country before the EU? NHS WAS free to everyone hence they all came and never paid.
You Brexiters really are totally clueless.
No! we live in the real world your the one making up stories and scaremongering without even a notion of the real truth.
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Our democratically elected Government? Gove isn't that right wing and insult is not a substitute for argument.
Nobody will be thrown out.
Jeremy you've decided to debate with Sass (personally I wouldn't bother) you don't have to go down to her level.
You are both rather 'pie in the sky' when it comes to this discussion aren't you?
It would be difficult for either of you to come down to earth and be level headed looking at the truth and not your imaginations. My level is more on par with the truth, isn't it.
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My level is more on par with the truth, isn't it.
No.
Don't reply.
I just like making unsubstantiated assertions.
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No.
Don't reply.
I just like making unsubstantiated assertions.
Your reply suggests you never read the whole of my post.
You should go back and read, you might want to change your reply.
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Your reply suggests you never read the whole of my post.
You should go back and read, you might want to change your reply.
Au contraire mon ami. You haven't read all of my post properly.
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How many Emergency departments have been closed? How many immigrants came into the country? May be you choose to be blind to the truth but the truth doesn't go away.
No. I'm the one asking you that question.
In 2014 624,000 people immigrated to the UK in the year ending September 2014, do you think they never required medical attention or those others who came in any other year?
You're not counting the fact that a lot of people also left the country. The net figure is closer to 300,000.
Do you not think that 624,000 people will not at some point require medical attention.
It's actually closer to 300,000 which is less than 0.5% of the population. How much extra stress is that putting on the NHS? Not much.
Who exactly would have been representing us in the EU if not the same Government running our NHS? Does Michael Gove really have such immense power that he can please himself?
Not anymore.
When did people not get medical attention in our Country before the EU? NHS WAS free to everyone hence they all came and never paid.
Nope. The NHS is not free for everybody. We pay taxes to support it. Immigrants pay taxes to support it. In fact, on average, if you subtract NHS costs from taxes paid, immigrants are less of a burden on the NHS than the rest of us.