Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Jack Knave on June 14, 2016, 08:34:57 PM
-
I was having this chat with an African guy, who was at work, and gave me the impression that he'd been here sometime and was thinking of becoming a citizen and all that. What he asked me was would he become British or English if he was successful in his application? The obvious answer is British. But he then went on to ask who is English? For example, he said, would a foreigner who came to England 200 or so years ago and who's subsequent generations had stayed and lived in England up to the present day, would they be English or British. I couldn't answer him. I thought British. Then he asked me who is English and I was stumped. Except for the obvious answer of the very, very long term white guy and woman I couldn't think what the actual definition or rules were to assess this. Any thoughts, anyone?
Also, what is the difference between the terms Britain and UK.
-
This explains the difference between the terms:
https://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/blog/2011/08/whats-the-difference-between-uk-britain-and-british-isles/
As to who is English - who knows, we are a mongrel lot that's for sure.
-
This explains the difference between the terms:
https://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/blog/2011/08/whats-the-difference-between-uk-britain-and-british-isles/
As to who is English - who knows, we are a mongrel lot that's for sure.
I gather from that that the terms Britain and UK mean the same thing.
So there is no definition when a foreigner's generational offspring become English then? Because if we are mongrels and also English there must be some point when our ancestors became English.
-
What's English and what is its relevance?
-
I gather from that that the terms Britain and UK mean the same thing.
So there is no definition when a foreigner's generational offspring become English then? Because if we are mongrels and also English there must be some point when our ancestors became English.
Then you need to go back and read it then because you haven't read it properly. Britain refers to England and Wales - Great Britain to England, Scotland and Wales. For the UK you add Northern Ireland and for the British Isles add Eire.
-
Why is it important?
-
Then you need to go back and read it then because you haven't read it properly. Britain refers to England and Wales - Great Britain to England, Scotland and Wales. For the UK you add Northern Ireland and for the British Isles add Eire.
And the IoM.
-
It's all a construct isn't it, national identity? I know what 'English' feels like to me but it might not to anyone else.
It matters enough to me to know where I come from to have traced my family tree (I'm a mix of rural English and Irish) but it doesn't tell me who I am.
-
Rain. Rain is English. And green. Oak and ash trees, primroses and elder bushes.To me, at any rate. So that probably says something about Englishness, for me.
I know this isn't what Jack asked, but NS asked what is important about English and if we choose to identify as something I suppose it matters why. And I identify with the landscape where I live. But that's just me. And I wasn't born here, although some of my ancestors were, I've since discovered.
-
I think someone who is born in England is English*. Someone who comes here and takes permanent citizenship is British but their children, if born here, will be English.
The same applies for Scottish, Welsh etc.
*If someone is born abroad of English parents who are temporarily working abroad on contract, they will be English.
English are a mixture, I doubt there are many pure bred anglo-saxons around today.
-
I think someone who is born in England is English*. Someone who comes here and takes permanent citizenship is British but their children, if born here, will be English.
The same applies for Scottish, Welsh etc.
*If someone is born abroad of English parents who are temporarily working abroad on contract, they will be English.
English are a mixture, I doubt there are many pure bred anglo-saxons around today.
I argued this on here once. We had a British Asian posting then who said that was how he identified, not as English, even though he was born in England. So it's a matter of choice, at least until the Union breaks up.
I don't think 'English' has any real meaning unless you want to play some international sports. Even if there were to be some kind of English independence referendum I'm guessing it would go on residency and not place of birth. It means something to me personally but it's of no relevance really.
-
I argued this on here once. We had a British Asian posting then who said that was how he identified, not as English, even though he was born in England. So it's a matter of choice, at least until the Union breaks up.
I wouldn't dream of interfering with anybody's right to identify however they wish. Personally, I identify as English since Britain is a collective term for three different nations, one of which I've never even visited yet (Scotland). Given that a third of the term doesn't apply I don't quite see the logic in identifying as British. I've spent a great deal of time in Wales and have loved every nanosecond of it, but I can't get away with identifying as Welsh, and given that I've dabbled in genealogy on and off for some years and have traced my family tree back to the mid-18th century, with everyone thus far from within the same relatively narrow band of middle England (they didn't move around much, my ancestors), English is all I can call myself. British seems like an abstraction to me that doesn't really gel.
The following is something I contributed to another forum a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away on this subject:
My completely and utterly unscientific and purely anecdotal personal experience indicates that somebody such as, say, Sir Anthony Hopkins will be referred to (in newspapers, magazines, reference works, etc.) as a Welsh actor and Billy Connolly as a Scottish comedian, but frequently English people end up being tagged with 'British.' I wonder why?
I just conducted an experiment: I went onto Wikipedia and picked literally the first three Welsh, Scottish and English names I could think of, off the top of my head, to search for. I came up with:
Sir Philip Anthony Hopkins, CBE (born 31 December 1937) is a Welsh actor of film, stage, and television, and a composer.
Sir Thomas Sean Connery KBE (born 25 August 1930) is a Scottish actor and producer.
David Terence Puttnam, Baron Puttnam, CBE, FRSA (born 25 February 1941) is a British film producer and educator.
Repeating the process (which you can do almost ad infinitum) does reveal some curious inconsistencies, however:
David Robert Joseph Beckham OBE (born 2 May 1975) is an English former footballer.
Dylan Marlais Thomas (27 October 1914 – 9 November 1953) was a British poet and writer
(Most people, I'd argue, would think of Thomas as definitively and quintessentially Welsh).
Ralph Vaughan Williams OM (12 October 1872 – 26 August 1958) was an English composer.
William Somerset Maugham CH (25 January 1874 – 16 December 1965) was a British playwright, novelist and short story writer.
William Shakespeare (26 April 1564 (baptised) – 23 April 1616) was an English poet and playwright.
Horatio Nelson, 1st Viscount Nelson, KB (29 September 1758 – 21 October 1805) was a British flag officer.
The contributors to Wikipedia at least seem to treat Welsh and Scottish identities as distinct and discrete, but English and British frequently as interchangeable.
-
Rain. Rain is English. And green. Oak and ash trees, primroses and elder bushes.To me, at any rate. So that probably says something about Englishness, for me.
I know this isn't what Jack asked, but NS asked what is important about English and if we choose to identify as something I suppose it matters why. And I identify with the landscape where I live. But that's just me. And I wasn't born here, although some of my ancestors were, I've since discovered.
So despite the fact that I grew up in a town that gets three times the average rainfall of England, you claim that's English?
-
So despite the fact that I grew up in a town that gets three times the average rainfall of England, you claim that's English?
No, of course not. I thought I was pretty clear about this being a very subjective, personal thing. There's something about liking rain that feels a part of my own personal Englishness for no logical reason other than it does. It also rains like mad in Ireland; I'm part Irish but can't identify as such. Other people will claim to feel English eating bacon and eggs on the Costa del Sol. It doesn't have much meaning except the one we choose to give it.
I can remember coming back from a holiday on the med somewhere and driving away from Gatwick in the rain and green and thinking that rain and green were a part of home, and home was and is England. Doesn't mean anything outside of what it means to me.
-
I can remember coming back from a holiday on the med somewhere and driving away from Gatwick in the rain and green and thinking that rain and green were a part of home, and home was and is England. Doesn't mean anything outside of what it means to me.
I've had people say that very thing to me when they've been abroad to notably arid parts of the world - they come back home, and of course it rains a lot (like now, for example) and of course they/we bitch and moan about it, but it also means greenery and lots of it.
-
So this reads to me like it's meaningless
ETA - which may be the point in the end, but again as previously covered there's an issue where 'true for me' tells you nothing and shuts down debate
-
I don't think it does mean that much to anyone NS (except those who go around waving patriotic banners or maybe at times like the world cup, or the last night of the Proms :-), in any case it isn't terribly important. However, if I was asked I'd describe myself as ''British English'', sometimes you have to tick a box on a form.
I'm a European too!
-
Well it clearly means something to some people. And not always in an ugly, superior nationalistic way, although it can be.
But what it means is personal and individual. My mother identifies as a Londoner and her sense of Englishness has very little to do with verdant countryside. And what it means to the individual doesn't matter to anyone else unless those others choose to make it matter.
-
Anyone can become British, but not everyone can become Scottish, Irish, Welsh, or English or even Cornish come to that.
It comes down as much as to whether other people perceive you as such.
Racist or not, people tend to mean white indigenous people because being Cornish or English etc is a more personal thing than just being British.
It's fairly universal IMO.
Even if I was born in India a lot of Indians wouldn't see me as an Indian. I could wear a sari, but I'd look different, customs or no.
Same with China or Japan.
I wonder how long it would take to be fully regarded as Japanese?
I don't think I ever would, no matter what my passport or the law says.
Being English or Scottish also means sharing a perceived culture but that does vary.
It is racist because it has tribal roots.
If you were black or brown you would have trouble passing off as Cornish.
It's not you can't claim it, or that the culture and accent isn't there, it's the majority won't accept you.
However somewhere like Birmingham which has large numbers of foreign different ethnic communities, you might get away with saying you were a " Brummi " however
In Somerset, Devon and Cornwall you wouldn't totally be accepted as a local white indigenous person would be.
Sometimes Cornish people take the piss out of people from Bristol and even in Somerset among the older generation anyone north of Bristol is considered a foreigner :)
Birmingham is " up north"
It's not just my perception of Somerset though, I was once teased by a Yorkshireman while in Yorkshire for being a foreigner because I came from Somerset.
I think he had encountered the old Somerset attitude ( or old Yorkshiremen have the same attitude to those in the south)
Basically being accepted into personalised groups is as much about others accepting you, as what you claim.
English is a bit wider than say Cornish or from Somerset, but there is a general perception of what someone is like and if your face doesn't fit, people won't see you as Cornish.
I think it's the same in Some parts of Wales.
Plus in some places it's not just about where you are born but where the generations of your family were based.
That's another aspect.
I think lots of ethnic groups in the uk retain their own personal identity on top of their own British one, because they recognise the difficulty of being recognised as say Welsh.
So people are British and Pakistani at the same time.
-
Well it clearly means something to some people. And not always in an ugly, superior nationalistic way, although it can be.
But what it means is personal and individual. My mother identifies as a Londoner and her sense of Englishness has very little to do with verdant countryside. And what it means to the individual doesn't matter to anyone else unless those others choose to make it matter.
Yes my mother identifies as a cockney( born within the sound of bow bells), even though she was an evacuee to Somerset as a child and never went back.
She was considered most definately a foreigner in Somerset, I don't think she ever feels she is Somerset the way my dad is.
She's been there for at least 65 years.
She still sees herself as a cockney. She has relatives in London ( as well as Somerset)
That's her identity.
-
I thought this was interesting
The exact nature of the arrival of the Anglo-Saxons and their relationship with the Romano-British is a matter of debate. Traditionally, it was believed that a mass invasion by various Anglo-Saxon tribes largely displaced the indigenous British population in southern and eastern Great Britain (modern-day England with the exception of Cornwall). This was supported by the writings of Gildas, the only contemporary historical account of the period, describing slaughter and starvation of native Britons by invading tribes (aduentus Saxonum).[37] Furthermore, the English language contains no more than a handful of words borrowed from Brythonic sources.[38]
However, this view has been re-evaluated by some archaeologists and historians since the 1960s; and more recently supported by genetic studies,[26] which see only minimal evidence for mass displacement. Archaeologist Francis Pryor has stated that he "can't see any evidence for bona fide mass migrations after the Neolithic."[39]
While the historian Malcolm Todd writes "It is much more likely that a large proportion of the British population remained in place and was progressively dominated by a Germanic aristocracy, in some cases marrying into it and leaving Celtic names in the, admittedly very dubious, early lists of Anglo-Saxon dynasties. But how we identify the surviving Britons in areas of predominantly Anglo-Saxon settlement, either archaeologically or linguistically, is still one of the deepest problems of early English history."[40]
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_people
Maybe the English are not as big a mix of nationalities as was originally thought.
-
I describe myself as British and would do so, if heaven help me, :D I was all English instead of half English. My husband is completely English but would always use the term British and so would my kids who were born in England.
Many with the 'little white englander' mentality think they are a cut above those of the rest of the union!
-
Then you need to go back and read it then because you haven't read it properly. Britain refers to England and Wales - Great Britain to England, Scotland and Wales. For the UK you add Northern Ireland and for the British Isles add Eire.
Not quite. It is a little more complex than that. I disagree with the OS definition in one respect - and that comes from history.
"Great Britain" is a geographical term. It is the name of the large island to the north of Brittany (Small Britain?). The distinction which was Roman in origin still remains in French - Bretagne and Grande Bretagne. Self- aggrandisement by many of its natives has led to the conception that the "Great" in Great Britain is a qualitative rather than a quantitative appellation.
There are three countries - each with distinct national identities on the island of Great Britain. The name for the political entity which governs these three countries (together with Northern Ireland) is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. The Isle of Man and the Channel Islands, which are regarded as parts of the British archipelago for historic and cultural reasons, are not parts of the United Kingdom but retain their own identity as Crown Dependencies - effectively self-governing colonies.
Should Scotland remove itself from the United Kingdom it will still be part of Great Britain.
-
Shaker
Your list culled from Wikipedia is fine as far as it goes, but fails to recognise that Wikipedia does not really have any strong editorial policy over the way its entries are presented and the nationality of subjects of its entries is really a matter for the people who have chosen to submit or amend the entries.
Can I add the following entry for consideration?
Sir Antonio "Tony" Pappano (born 30 December 1959) is a British-Italian conductor and pianist, music director of the Royal Opera House since 2002.
Sir Antonio Pappano was born in London where his family were established. Hence he is British by birth. Until a couple of weeks ago he was described in Wikipedia as "an English conductor". When he was in his early teens, his family moved to the USA and eventually he acquired US citizenship. He recently became a naturalised Italian citizen (after all, it is his heritage.) He has three nationalities.
He is a frequent television performer and presenter and it is clear that he is confident and comfortable in each of his three national identities.
By the way, Anthony Hopkins is also an American citizen, and your list should not include William Shakespeare since he was born before the union of Scotland with England and the national identity "British" did not exist then.
If I am questioned I will state that I am English rather than British. There is a quality of "Englishness" that I treasure - but for the life of me I cannot explain what it is. And there have been two Americans who settled in this country who, to me, anyway, became very English. They were T S Eliot and Yehudi Menuhin.
-
There is a quality of "Englishness" that I treasure - but for the life of me I cannot explain what it is
I feel much the same way.
Shaker and I touched on this on another thread when discussing Vaughan Williams' 'The Lark Asceending' and the poem 'Adlestrop' - both of which go some, although, not all the way to defining what I feel about Englishness. I fully accept that this is totally personal and for other people it will be other things that trigger that feeling.
-
HH, I very much agree with you as to treasuring being English. It's not a pride thing, I'm not proud to be English. It's more a way to understand myself and what speaks to me I suppose.
I object to Floo's assumption that Englishness means bigotry. Some English are like that but you find it in every nationality. And identifying as 'British' doesn't confer immunity from it - hence the BNP and elements of UKIP.
-
What could be more English than the great music of Gustav Holst and Edward Elgar.
-
Eating fish and chips in the car parked up by the coast somewhere, in a torrential downpour.
-
I agree with your last two posts Rhiannon and also with being a Londoner which is more a part of me than the English. However it is only by accident of birth that I'm English, I could have been born somewhere else; Englishness is not something I have achieved. However I like it well enough, can't imagine anything else which is a natural enough feeling. I like it here too, wouldn't want to live anywhere else.
The far right carry it to a whole new level which makes no sense to most of us.
-
HH, I very much agree with you as to treasuring being English. It's not a pride thing, I'm not proud to be English. It's more a way to understand myself and what speaks to me I suppose.
I object to Floo's assumption that Englishness means bigotry. Some English are like that but you find it in every nationality. And identifying as 'British' doesn't confer immunity from it - hence the BNP and elements of UKIP.
Where did I say that ALL the English are like that? My husband and children certainly aren't! I was talking about those with the 'little white englander' approach, who are nasty.
-
I agree with your last two posts Rhiannon and also with being a Londoner which is more a part of me than the English. However it is only by accident of birth that I'm English, I could have been born somewhere else; Englishness is not something I have achieved. However I like it well enough, can't imagine anything else which is a natural enough feeling. I like it here too, wouldn't want to live anywhere else.
The far right carry it to a whole new level which makes no sense to most of us.
We are all what we are by accident of birth, which does make us special in any way.
-
Where did I say that ALL the English are like that? My husband and children certainly aren't! I was talking about those with the 'little white englander' approach, who are nasty.
No, what you seem to be saying is that the English who identify as such have a little Englander mentality rather than the English who identify as British, such as your family. It's difficult to see what else you mean.
-
What could be more English than the great music of Gustav Holst and Edward Elgar.
Elgar is English - but he is also our great international composer. His influences were German, and he was a friend and admirer of Gabriel Faure. His closest musical friend was August Jaeger (Nimrod - who died too early and whose family changed their name to "Hunter" in 1914). I sometimes think that it is our assertion that Elgar is "English" that has prevented much of the rest of the world recognising his greatness. I prefer Mark Elder's observation that Elgar is "the English Mahler" (although I would have preferred it if he had described Mahler as "the central European Elgar").
I think that the most "English" composer - paradoxically - is Frederick Delius.
-
I would have to nominate Vaughan Williams for that laurel - given his influences, predominantly English Tudor polyphony and (especially) traditional folk song.
There are plenty of others who come close (such as RVW's chum Gerald Finzi, English-born but of a Sephardic Jewish Italian heritage), and then there's another of his mates, Herbert Howells. RVW's closest friend Holst has already been mentioned. (Not very fun fact: Howells, Holst and RVW were all from Gloucestershire). But RVW claims the prize hands down, surely.
HH correctly points out that Elgar's musical toolkit was basically German (think Brahms), something equally true (or even more so) of two great composers thought of as quintessentially English, Parry (wrote a 'Cambridge' Symphony, an 'English' Symphony and of course the tune for Jerusalem) and Stanford (though he was born in Ireland). Much of RVW's work, especially in the early period was modal, built as it was on modal tunes as found in folk song. It became so much a part of hs musical vocabulary that he could effortlessly write original tunes that sound like folk song even though they're actually not. (The central section of The Lark Ascending being a case in point).
-
No, what you seem to be saying is that the English who identify as such have a little Englander mentality rather than the English who identify as British, such as your family. It's difficult to see what else you mean.
I think floo was saying there are some people who have the ''Little Englander'' attitude. We've all met them. They can lead us to be a bit defensive and not particularly want to identify as ''English'' because it might align us with them. I remember once someone saying to me ''Just think, we used to be an Empire!'' in an exasperated way and my response was, ''Who wants an empire?? Anyway, I'm a European and glad to be''. Hee hee. A bit of an overreaction on my part but he was doing a bit of an Alf-Garnett.
-
Dear Rhiannon,
Eating fish and chips in the car parked up by the coast somewhere, in a torrential downpour.
British, most definitely British, I think I could travel to the four corners of this island and find someone who has experienced that little joy :P :P
The smell of vinegar, the windows misting up, fish and chips, the ultimate comfort food. :) :)
Gonnagle.
-
And those little wooden forks ...
-
No, what you seem to be saying is that the English who identify as such have a little Englander mentality rather than the English who identify as British, such as your family. It's difficult to see what else you mean.
The ones who think their Englishness is a cut above the rest, especially if their skin is white, have an unpleasant mentality, imo.
-
Whenever I have to declare nationality I'm always English first followed by the Brit or UK citizen, it's a feeling can't give a rational explanation.
Someone in the family found we have been here for 200 years, and came here from somewhere in Flanders, so My ancestors could be either Belgian, French or Dutch.
We seem to have historic heroes like What Tyler the Tolpuddle Martyrs and the Levellers, all looking for fair play and we seem to be the ones that have initiated so many kinds of sport, but then so have so many countries have similar heroes and attributes, fair play for all and the freedom of the individual does seem to figure rather strongly in our culture, I don't know exactly.
Another thing I have noticed if you're English and you travel all over the world it's amazing how many foreigners there are living in all the various parts of this world?
I mean places like Scotland Wales and Ireland, packed full of bloody foreigners.
Sorry about that I started off all right
ippy
-
The ones who think their Englishness is a cut above the rest, especially if their skin is white, have an unpleasant mentality, imo.
Yes but it's not exclusively an English problem, and it's not remedied by adopting the term 'British' either.
-
Yes but it's not exclusively an English problem, and it's not remedied by adopting the term 'British' either.
We are British so why not use the term?
-
Dear ippy,
Go on admit it, you have a Scottish granny or a third cousin who is Scottish, something about the English they all want to be in some small part Scottish, envy is a very unpleasant trait ::) ::)
Gonnagle.
-
Dear ippy,
Go on admit it, you have a Scottish granny or a third cousin who is Scottish, something about the English they all want to be in some small part Scottish, envy is a very unpleasant trait ::) ::)
Gonnagle.
I have a Scottish aunt by marriage, and a Scottish son-in-law, does that count? :D
-
I have a Scottish aunt by marriage, and a Scottish son-in-law, does that count? :D
Which football team do you support is a possible test.
-
We are British so why not use the term?
Because given Northern Ireland it doesn't represent any nationality. Be better with UKish
-
Seems to me that what people self-identify as their nationality within the mix of UK countries is a mix of place of birth, parental place of birth, family domicile(s) historically and their current/long-term adult domicile.
In some cases, like mine, they may all coincide for most of the time - so I identify as Scottish in spite of spending 6 years in England during my childhood, but I don't consider myself any more Scottish than a friend of mine (like me in his mid-60s) who was born in England, as were his parents and grandparents, but at the age of 7 he moved to Scotland and stayed: he identifies himself as Scottish.
Some may see their place of birth as being more important to them than their domicile where these are different, whereas others might regard where they are/have been domiciled for most of the time as being 'home'.
-
Dear ippy,
Go on admit it, you have a Scottish granny or a third cousin who is Scottish, something about the English they all want to be in some small part Scottish, envy is a very unpleasant trait ::) ::)
Gonnagle.
My maternal grandfather was a Scot, even worse he was fully Scottish.
My paternal grandmother was half Irish.
Apart from those my siblings and I are a perfect set of English citizens.
Now Gonners, now about 1966?
ippy
-
I have a Scottish aunt by marriage, and a Scottish son-in-law, does that count? :D
Definitely all bloody foreigners, especially any Irish bits.
ippy
-
Seems to me that what people self-identify as their nationality within the mix of UK countries is a mix of place of birth, parental place of birth, family domicile(s) historically and their current/long-term adult domicile.
In some cases, like mine, they may all coincide for most of the time - so I identify as Scottish in spite of spending 6 years in England during my childhood, but I don't consider myself any more Scottish than a friend of mine (like me in his mid-60s) who was born in England, as were his parents and grandparents, but at the age of 7 he moved to Scotland and stayed: he identifies himself as Scottish.
Some may see their place of birth as being more important to them than their domicile where these are different, whereas others might regard where they are/have been domiciled for most of the time as being 'home'.
Have you ever considerered becoming naturalized English?
The six years living in England would probably go in your favour.
ippy
-
My maternal grandfather was a Scot, even worse he was fully Scottish.
My paternal grandmother was half Irish.
Apart from those my siblings and I are a perfect set of English citizens.
Now Gonners, now about 1966?
ippy
That would be the year before 1967?
-
Definitely all bloody foreigners, especially any Irish bits.
ippy
I have Irish nationality was well as British!
-
Really? I never knew that floo.
So you have dual nationality.
I have some Northern Irish in me but that's not the same.
-
Really? I never knew that floo.
So you have dual nationality.
I have some Northern Irish in me but that's not the same.
Yes I only did it for a bit of fun in 2008, as I could. One is entitled to it if you had an Irish grandparent, as I did. My baby sister got it first, and had all the relevant birth, death and marriage certificates. I just had to provide mine, fill in the form, send a cheque for £88, and hey presto I have Irish citizenship. Another of my sisters is about to apply for it too, in case Britain leaves the EU. She and her husband have a second home in Bruges so it might get complicated if the UK is no longer a member. I have just sent her all the certificates. I saw on the Internet the other day a lot of people are applying for Irish citizenship at the moment.
-
We are British so why not use the term?
I'm from Somerset, English, British and European all at the same time. ;)
British is a bit wide really and I'd never describe myself as European, but I am.
-
I'm proud of my Englishness, why not?
Everyone is special IMO.
People just express their specialness with labels.
No one should be ashamed of their identity, I think people should enjoy it.
If black people can be black and proud, why can't I be white and proud?
One is ok, the other frowned on. I haven't enslaved anyone and the colour of my skin shouldn't imply guilt.
That's discrimination.
Everyone should be able to treasure who they are regardless of skin colour etc.
I'm not ashamed of being white, but there are a lot of people about, who think i should be.
It's not about feeling superior, it's about being comfortable with who you are.
Somehow that doesn't go down very well.
Even using the English flag leaves you open to accusations of racism.
It's madness.
-
I'm proud of my Englishness, why not?
Everyone is special IMO.
People just express their specialness with labels.
No one should be ashamed of their identity, I think people should enjoy it.
Quite.
-
This is just for Rose:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tb63PdPweDc
-
This is just for Rose:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tb63PdPweDc
;D ;D ;D ;D
Definately!
But I can still appreciate a Scottish identity with a Scot and enjoy a Burns night with neeps and tatters ;D
-
...and many would enjoy cider with you, I'm sure.
-
I find being proud of an accident of birth bizarre. I am first and foremost on geographic identities a Glaswegian, though not born there (it was a whole 20 miles away). But I am not proud of it except when we behave well, and I am ashamed of it often even on Just Another Saturday.
It's home but that's about it, and I feel home there with people who feel at home there. Some are born Glaswegian, some achieve it, and some have it thrust upon them.
-
Seems to me that what people self-identify as their nationality within the mix of UK countries is a mix of place of birth, parental place of birth, family domicile(s) historically and their current/long-term adult domicile.
In some cases, like mine, they may all coincide for most of the time - so I identify as Scottish in spite of spending 6 years in England during my childhood, but I don't consider myself any more Scottish than a friend of mine (like me in his mid-60s) who was born in England, as were his parents and grandparents, but at the age of 7 he moved to Scotland and stayed: he identifies himself as Scottish.
Some may see their place of birth as being more important to them than their domicile where these are different, whereas others might regard where they are/have been domiciled for most of the time as being 'home'.
I'm with you here, Gordon, and strangely your friend's story is similar to mine but reversed. I was born in Scotland but moved to England at the age of 10. My father and all his side of the family were/are Scottish, my mother was English and her father was English but her mother was Irish. We can't find any Welsh connections, though.
I've lived in England for many years but still yearn for Scotland and not so much the lowlands where we lived before moving south, but always the north-west coast, where I originally hail from.... thoughts of Loch Maree and the Gairloch sands, that was once home.
-
I find being proud of an accident of birth bizarre. I am first and foremost on geographic identities a Glaswegian, though not born there (it was a whole 20 miles away). But I am not proud of it except when we behave well, and I am ashamed of it often even on Just Another Saturday.
It's home but that's about it, and I feel home there with people who feel at home there. Some are born Glaswegian, some achieve it, and some have it thrust upon them.
There is nothing wrong in enjoying your identity and sharing it with others.
The time you might become aware you value it a lot is if someone attacks it by implying you should be ashamed of it.
That's what I find.
It's great fun when you meet someone who is willing to share their identity, they could be Jewish just as easily.
No one should feel they have to hide who they are.
We have someone at work who is black and has family in Jamaica and I love it when she shares her identity even if it's just some food ;D
It's about treasuring your identity without making someone else feel less because they don't share it.
I've found most people love sharing little bits they feel is Irish, Jamaican, Jewish.
Or even sharing a meal with a Londoner who enjoys " pie and liquor."
Must admit I was surprised when the liquor turned out to be green but it was delicious.
Have to have vinegar, to do it properly, I was told ;D
-
I find being proud of an accident of birth bizarre. I am first and foremost on geographic identities a Glaswegian, though not born there (it was a whole 20 miles away). But I am not proud of it except when we behave well, and I am ashamed of it often even on Just Another Saturday.
It's home but that's about it, and I feel home there with people who feel at home there. Some are born Glaswegian, some achieve it, and some have it thrust upon them.
No, I don't find it something to be proud of either. It's just a way of expressing or understanding who I am and where I've come from, or not. It matters to me and there are other English people for whom the same things matter in what appears to be a similar way to me, so there's that lovely spark of recognition you find with someone who gets what you get. But proud of it? No.
-
10 reasons to feel proud at being English or British ( they do use the term interchangeably.)
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/04/22/st-george-day-patriotic-reasons-pictures_n_5191257.html
On the whole we don't blow our own trumpet, perhaps that's why Donald trump can be annoying ;D
-
10 reasons to feel proud at being English or British ( they do use the term interchangeably.)
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/04/22/st-george-day-patriotic-reasons-pictures_n_5191257.html
On the whole we don't blow our own trumpet, perhaps that's why Donald trump can be annoying ;D
aren't you blowing your own trumpet in saying you don't, on the whole, blow your own trumpet?
-
No, I don't find it something to be proud of either. It's just a way of expressing or understanding who I am and where I've come from, or not. It matters to me and there are other English people for whom the same things matter in what appears to be a similar way to me, so there's that lovely spark of recognition you find with someone who gets what you get. But proud of it? No.
I suppose it's pleasure rather than pride.
Winning the lottery is a sheer accident, a fluke of random chance, but people tend to be rather glad when they win. Saying that they're proud of it would be very odd.
-
I suppose it's pleasure rather than pride.
Winning the lottery is a sheer accident, a fluke of random chance, but people tend to be rather glad when they win. Saying that they're proud of it would be very odd.
Yes, that's a very good way of putting it. :D
-
aren't you blowing your own trumpet in saying you don't, on the whole, blow your own trumpet?
Yes!
I'm not being very British.
But sometimes I think these isles need to be appreciated for some of the positive things we do stand for :)
NHS for a start :)
I think we try and be fair and protect groups from discrimination.
-
Yes I too think it is pleasure rather than pride.
I feel ashamed when I hear about English/British football fans behaving badly. Once when I was on holiday abroad I felt a bit ashamed of a crowd of English - well, yobs I suppose you'd call them - behaving really badly. It was embarrassing. Yet I feel immensely proud of David Beckham who I think is a fine example of Britishness and a great role model.
So for me it is mixed, I've said before, like NS, that I cannot be proud of an accident of birth but it all depends on your own definition of 'proud', I certainly understand what Rose says.
-
Once on holiday to Tunisa I remember being embarrassed by the superior behaviour of a fellow Brit towards Tunisian hotel staff :( >:(
It was just rude!
I wouldn't have treated anyone like that!
Sometimes people do make me ashamed when they treat others badly.
I was polite and respectful and got the best family room ever.
Politeness and respect pays off in the end.
I get annoyed when someone behaves like a pig and are British because they let the side down.
-
Yes, I feel like that too.
-
I have Irish nationality was well as British!
I'm sure you're a joy Floo, but that doesn't mean we have to hold back when we're in full Flow having a go at bloody foreigners.
ippy
-
I find being proud of an accident of birth bizarre. I am first and foremost on geographic identities a Glaswegian, though not born there (it was a whole 20 miles away). But I am not proud of it except when we behave well, and I am ashamed of it often even on Just Another Saturday.
It's home but that's about it, and I feel home there with people who feel at home there. Some are born Glaswegian, some achieve it, and some have it thrust upon them.
I can understand your Glaswegian written word, 'ahm', now do you reckon?
My wife and I sat down to watch and listen to a play on the T V some time back, the play was set in Hellensborough, we soon gave up, couldn't understand a word.
ippy
-
The smell of vinegar,
????
..broon sauce!
Ya Weegie! ;)