Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Nearly Sane on June 16, 2016, 03:26:25 PM
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Hugely shocking.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-36550304
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Saw this. Awful.
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Any reasons being given? Who and when was the last MP to be attacked in this way (shot)?
Oh, and by the way, how do you pronounce the school she attended?
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Dreadful, poor woman.
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Last MP I remember being attacked was Nigel Jones with the samurai sword.
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I know a couple of MPS took part in duels but last MP I know of was shot wa Spencer Perceval
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I know a couple of MPS took part in duels but last MP I know of was shot wa Spencer Perceval
And that would have been 1812, iirc. I knew that the last British MP to be assassinated was a Prime Minister, but I have to admit to having forgotten about Perceval.
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Sadly I forgot about Stephen Timms, and other attacks are common
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/190-mps-report-being-attacked-abused-threatened-by-their-constituents-new-study-finds-1539762
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That's pretty disturbing, NS - especially as it seems to refer onlyu to current or immediately recent MPs. I've always known that their job isn't the easiest, but that does seem to requie them being willing to go 'over and above'.
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Shocking news, terrible times. MP Jo Cox critically injured, Perpetrator has blown away the Britain we knew.
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Rumours that the gunman shouted 'Britain First'.
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Rumours that the gunman shouted 'Britain First'.
He has given us a terrible demonstration of his ''Britain''.
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Not only that but it makes no sense. Jo Cox is British, living in Britain, representing part of Britain. I don't understand it.
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I think she supports Remain, and this gentleman objected, apparently. All campaigning is suspended, I think.
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She's died.
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Oh no, that is terrible.
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That's awful.
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I think Britain First, the neo-Nazi organization, are denying that it was them.
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Just seen a picture of her kids. They are so little to have lost their mum.
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Stupid fucking referendum.
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http://i2.examiner.co.uk/incoming/article9211899.ece/ALTERNATES/s615b/JS62963279.jpg
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This stupid referendum is not worth anyone's life.
I am sickened by this appalling incident. This was a decent woman who was working in her constituency helping others.
My thoughts are with her family.
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Yes, agree with that, HH.
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Yes, agree with that, HH.
Likewise. Politics isn't everything, by any means.
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That's awful!
I heard it just after leaving work.
Perhaps they ought to cancel the referendum, in her memory.
If people can't campaign sensibly, we are better off not having one.
IMO anyway.
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It's just terrible waste of a young life.
If the account of slogan shouting is true, it can only be the result the hateful political rhetoric being assimilated by a sick mind.
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Directly linking this to the referendum is not evidenced currently. My thoughts are with her family.
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And it would be neither feasible nor sensible to cancel the referendum. Apart from anything else it would create a precedent capable of being used by any random nutter to halt any votes they think are going the wrong way
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Just seen a picture of her kids. They are so little to have lost their mum.
Yes, that's just what I thought Rhi. It's so awful, it's difficult to take it in.
Cameron has cancelled the pro-EU Gibralter rally or so I read just now.
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Directly linking this to the referendum is not evidenced currently. My thoughts are with her family.
Again I agree. But it's been sobering reading the quotes coming from leading politicians across Europe, from countries who have a far worse history with fascism than us. If there is a suggestion that this is a result of the rhetoric that has come out of the referendum - and we may never know if it is or it isn't for sure - then they must be wondering what the hell we've unleashed on ourselves.
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https://tompride.wordpress.com/2016/06/16/brexit-supporters-call-jo-cox-murder-left-wing-false-flag-and-blame-lying-muslims/
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https://tompride.wordpress.com/2016/06/16/brexit-supporters-call-jo-cox-murder-left-wing-false-flag-and-blame-lying-muslims/
I believe Brexit supporters are now in the habit of believing any bollocks.....in fact I think now many only believe something if it is bollocks.
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Yeah, but this is David Icke 'prince Charles is an alien' territory. One person one vote sounds great til you realise this lot will be included.
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I think the man who did it, has been on treatment for mental illness for a long time.
That's what I read.
Not that that excuses anything, mind you.
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A terrible day.
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https://tompride.wordpress.com/2016/06/16/brexit-supporters-call-jo-cox-murder-left-wing-false-flag-and-blame-lying-muslims/
Brexit supporters really, what a thing to use as political capital.
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I think the man who did it, has been on treatment for mental illness for a long time.
That's what I read.
Not that that excuses anything, mind you.
Depends what the mental illness was. If it has left him of unsound mind/criminally insane/incapable if geo g held responsible for his actions, or whatever it's called now, then yes, it explains it. Otherwise it probably isn't that relevant.
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Depends what the mental illness was. If it has left him of unsound mind/criminally insane/incapable if geo g held responsible for his actions, or whatever it's called now, then yes, it explains it. Otherwise it probably isn't that relevant.
I guess in time we will get some more info.
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I guess in time we will get some more info.
At or around the trial I expect.
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And that would have been 1812, iirc. I knew that the last British MP to be assassinated was a Prime Minister, but I have to admit to having forgotten about Perceval.
And what about Airey Neave who was blown up by a hidden bomb as he drove his car out of the Houses of Parliament car park? I think that was about 1990.
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I think that was Ian Gow. Airey Neave was earlier.
And there was the Brighton bomb of course.
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Alrx Massie again.
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/06/a-day-of-infamy/
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Really.
By this time next month, it will all be forgotten about.
There must be at least one person murdered somewhere in the UK on an average day.
Why is this particular event so newsworthy??
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Really.
By this time next month, it will all be forgotten about.
There must be at least one person murdered somewhere in the UK on an average day.
Why is this particular event so newsworthy??
Because its suits certain political agendas?
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Really.
By this time next month, it will all be forgotten about.
There must be at least one person murdered somewhere in the UK on an average day.
Why is this particular event so newsworthy??
I think that you are wrong. This murder will not be forgotten. It is not just another random tragedy.
It strikes at the heart of our democratic process. It is using violence to achieve a political end - even though it may involve just some deranged individual it is mimicking what some of us see happening in the USA. It is an affront to our political ideals as well as a personal tragedy.
And it happened because a second-rate prime minister had serious party management problems ... The rancour, distortions and appalling behaviour that this referendum has created have all damaged the public face of political life - perhaps seriously. But that this should lead to the murder of a Member of Parliament who was just doing her normal activities as an elected representative is an unspeakable degradation of democracy
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. . .
And it happened because a second-rate prime minister had serious party management problems ... The rancour, distortions and appalling behaviour that this referendum has created have all damaged the public face of political life - perhaps seriously. But that this should lead to the murder of a Member of Parliament who was just doing her normal activities as an elected representative is an unspeakable degradation of democracy
I think when the full facts emerge, it will turn-out that it happened because a person with serious mental health problems (and access to a gun) got wound-up by the extreme language being used by people who really ought to know better.
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Really.
By this time next month, it will all be forgotten about.
There must be at least one person murdered somewhere in the UK on an average day.
Oh, that's alright then.
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I think that you are wrong. This murder will not be forgotten. It is not just another random tragedy.
It strikes at the heart of our democratic process. It is using violence to achieve a political end - even though it may involve just some deranged individual it is mimicking what some of us see happening in the USA. It is an affront to our political ideals as well as a personal tragedy.
And it happened because a second-rate prime minister had serious party management problems ... The rancour, distortions and appalling behaviour that this referendum has created have all damaged the public face of political life - perhaps seriously. But that this should lead to the murder of a Member of Parliament who was just doing her normal activities as an elected representative is an unspeakable degradation of democracy
This sort of causal suggestion isn't warranted by the evidence we currently have. And I think linking it to Cameron at all is ludicrous. A number of fairly sensible people I know have gone all Chicken Licken about this. It's a tragedy. We get a lot of them
Extrapolating from them is difficult unless there is pattern.
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I think when the full facts emerge, it will turn-out that it happened because a person with serious mental health problems (and access to a gun) got wound-up by the extreme language being used by people who really ought to know better.
Really? So there are people out there saying 'go kill an MP?'
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It is difficult to believe one of our MP's killed in such a way.
I pray for her family and friends and I hope nothing like this is repeated.
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Really? So there are people out there saying 'go kill an MP?'
Apparently there is more intimidation of MP's and this MP than people may have thought.....see news reports this morning.
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I noticed the guy they have arrested is only at present a SUSPECT.
But how they have used it to represent the group he is part of as one against the Brexit is ridiculous.
When it comes to politics they should leave such things out and concentrate on what has happened to poor Jo.
It is disgusting to use such a tragedy thinking it may affect the British Voters.
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Apparently there is more intimidation of MP's and this MP than people may have thought.....see news reports this morning.
I am aware of that, and its irrelevant to trying to pin the blame on rhetoric here.
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I think that you are wrong. This murder will not be forgotten. It is not just another random tragedy.
It strikes at the heart of our democratic process. It is using violence to achieve a political end - even though it may involve just some deranged individual it is mimicking what some of us see happening in the USA. It is an affront to our political ideals as well as a personal tragedy.
And it happened because a second-rate prime minister had serious party management problems ... The rancour, distortions and appalling behaviour that this referendum has created have all damaged the public face of political life - perhaps seriously. But that this should lead to the murder of a Member of Parliament who was just doing her normal activities as an elected representative is an unspeakable degradation of democracy
No it happened because [insert political agenda here].
Politics has lost an intelligent committed politician which is a tragedy, however this loss is nothing compared to her children or husband and other close friends and family.
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I noticed the guy they have arrested is only at present a SUSPECT.
But how they have used it to represent the group he is part of as one against the Brexit is ridiculous.
When it comes to politics they should leave such things out and concentrate on what has happened to poor Jo.
It is disgusting to use such a tragedy thinking it may affect the British Voters.
If his political views and the difference between his views and Jo Cox's is relevant in the investigation then, quite rightly, it needs to be raised and investigated. This wasn't merely a random attack - what are the chance that a random member of the public attacked in the street happens to be your MP? No this was a deliberate attack on her and we need to know why.
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I think when the full facts emerge, it will turn-out that it happened because a person with serious mental health problems (and access to a gun) got wound-up by the extreme language being used by people who really ought to know better.
I agree - and when you unleash the politics of hatred (even if you abhor violence) you cannot control it and the consequences can be tragic.
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May I change the direction of the thread a tad, and ask how people feel that this could impact on our ability to meet and interact with our political representatives? Some amazing tributes from across the political spectrum on BBC Breakfast this morning, but also a very interesting interview with Stephen Timms.
Just before I finish, here's an interesting fact about the family - taken from wikipedia -
"Cox's family divided their time between their constituency home and a houseboat (a converted barge) on the Thames, moored near Tower Bridge, London."
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If his political views and the difference between his views and Jo Cox's is relevant in the investigation then, quite rightly, it needs to be raised and investigated. This wasn't merely a random attack - what are the chance that a random member of the public attacked in the street happens to be your MP? No this was a deliberate attack on her and we need to know why.
Indeed we do but that's irrelevant to Sassy's post. There is a rush to associate the person who committed this atrocity with people he might have had some political thoughts in common with that those same people would disavow if it were done by others about Muslims
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What a terrible crime, I hope the evil perpetrator is locked up for the rest of his life.
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I doubt this will change the way we interact with our MPs Hope, it was a one off by someone who was unhinged. Of course we hope there will be no copycat attack, that does happen.
I knew about the houseboat home but wonder why you find that such an interesting fact? I read what you quoted and thought you were going on to say something further.
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Indeed we do but that's irrelevant to Sassy's post. There is a rush to associate the person who committed this atrocity with people he might have had some political thoughts in common with that those same people would disavow if it were done by others about Muslims
I don't agree - using islam as an example - think it is perfectly reasonable to recognise that a prime motivation for islamic extremist terrorist act is the islamic faith of the perpetrators. Indeed not to do so is disingenuous. But that does not mean, of course, that all muslims are terrorists.
Likewise recognising that the motivations here may involve extreme right wing view and hatred of the liberal left is relevant. That does not mean that all right-wingers are likewise implicated - that is absurd.
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Really? So there are people out there saying 'go kill an MP?'
The stuff that the organisation 'Britain First' churn-out is pretty bad, with some of the UKIP rhetoric coming a close second.
No, of course no one actually advocates murdering MPs but a person with severe mental health issues who takes this crap seriously might well conclude that assassination would be justified.
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((((("Cox's family divided their time between their constituency home and a houseboat (a converted barge) on the Thames, moored near Tower Bridge, London.")))))
What on earth has that got to do with this appalling crime?
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If his political views and the difference between his views and Jo Cox's is relevant in the investigation then, quite rightly, it needs to be raised and investigated. This wasn't merely a random attack - what are the chance that a random member of the public attacked in the street happens to be your MP? No this was a deliberate attack on her and we need to know why.
Till they have evidence he did it, the political views should remains secondry.
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I knew about the houseboat home but wonder why you find that such an interesting fact? I read what you quoted and thought you were going on to say something further.
I wasn't trying to lighten the atmosphere in a 'silly' way, but thought some might be interested in the wider picture. Regarding the issue of security, there was an immediate reaction to eurity following the attack on Stephen Timms, and he wondered whether this might lead to more stringent security.
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I don't agree - using islam as an example - think it is perfectly reasonable to recognise that a prime motivation for islamic extremist terrorist act is the islamic faith of the perpetrators. Indeed not to do so is disingenuous. But that does not mean, of course, that all muslims are terrorists.
Likewise recognising that the motivations here may involve extreme right wing view and hatred of the liberal left is relevant. That does not mean that all right-wingers are likewise implicated - that is absurd.
He uses a dog whistle, I use a multi toned canine calling system
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The stuff that the organisation 'Britain First' churn-out is pretty bad, with some of the UKIP rhetoric coming a close second.
No, of course no one actually advocates murdering MPs but a person with severe mental health issues who takes this crap seriously might well conclude that assassination would be justified.
Someone with severe mental difficulties might find anything would justify this. The point is that they have severe mental difficulties.
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Someone with severe mental difficulties might find anything would justify this. The point is that they have severe mental difficulties.
Mental health may provide a justification as to why they might resort to violence, but it isn't a motivation. We should not stop asking about motivation because someone has mental health issues. And remember this wasn't a random attack from a mad person on an unfortunate random member of the public who happened to be in the wrong place.
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Till they have evidence he did it, the political views should remains secondry.
I don't think it is in doubt that he did it, albeit because of the judicial process the police will be very careful in the wording they use.
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Someone with severe mental difficulties might find anything would justify this. The point is that they have severe mental difficulties.
It seems he had an interest in white supremacism and apartheid. He subscribed to a South African pro-apartheid publication that had a big thing in why Britain should vote leave in its latest issue.
None of which means that blame attaches to Fsrage et al. That said, the manipulative, overheated rhetoric of the Brexit camp leaves a nasty taste and it has stoked an atmosphere in which the far right is in danger of becoming mainstream.
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This sort of causal suggestion isn't warranted by the evidence we currently have. And I think linking it to Cameron at all is ludicrous. A number of fairly sensible people I know have gone all Chicken Licken about this. It's a tragedy. We get a lot of them
Extrapolating from them is difficult unless there is pattern.
My intention was not to present a "causal suggestion".
The Conservative Party is split down the middle. It has had serious management problems for many years. Since John Major stood down William Hague, Iain Duncan Smith, Michael Howard and David Cameron have each found themselves elected party leader, their main qualification for that office being that none of them was named Kenneth Clarke.
Since he became prime minister, David Cameron has demonstrated that party interests come first. The rational consequence of the Scottish referendum would have been to hold a constitutional convention which would look at all aspects of the governance of the United Kingdom - self-government, regional government, the nature of the second chamber, the electoral system and so on .... and this would include the relationship between the United Kingdom and the European Union. He decided instead on a quick fix - EVAL because he perceived a built-in permanent Conservative majority in England.
I consider that his primary intention in calling a referendum was to put the right-wing of his party in their place. He reasoned that a majority of the electorate would vote Remain and that would kick the matter into touch.
What, I think, no-one anticipated has been the rancorous, destructive, nasty campaign which has emerged. There has been little rational discussion of the factors which should determine an individual to vote to leave or to remain but accusations of bullying and lying and cheating.
Mrs Cox appears to have been a decent, humane, caring and compassionate woman and a dedicated Member of Parliament. She was engaged in her duties in her constituency. If reports of the attack upon her are true, her killer shouted something like Britain first. I am very sure that he was mentally unstable. But I am also sure that his mental condition had been further affected by the intellectual violence that has characterised this referendum campaign.
In a world less dominated by partisan in-fighting this referendum would never have been called.
Edit: Correction of typographical error
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Someone with severe mental difficulties might find anything would justify this. The point is that they have severe mental difficulties.
Exactly, I'm not sure what your point is.
I have certainly encountered characters, generally in dark corners of pubs, with extreme views and no obvious signs of sanity. Generally they are harmless, but wind them up and give them a gun - and I wouldn't like to be around.
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Politics has lost an intelligent committed politician which is a tragedy, however this loss is nothing compared to her children or husband and other close friends and family.
I agree entirely.
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So if it is a Muslim committing an atrocity it = Radicalisation by Islam
If it's a white guy it = mental health issues.
Don't you just love the consistency of approach.
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It seems he had an interest in white supremacism and apartheid. He subscribed to a South African pro-apartheid publication that had a big thing in why Britain should vote leave in its latest issue.
None of which means that blame attaches to Fsrage et al. That said, the manipulative, overheated rhetoric of the Brexit camp leaves a nasty taste and it has stoked an atmosphere in which the far right is in danger of becoming mainstream.
We get the politicians we deserve, there is genuine concern with traditional labour support about immigration, the centre left failed to engage with this concern (e.g. Brown 'that bigoted woman') for tribal reasons this support is unable to move to supporting Tories, enter UKIP.
I'm concerned about UKIP what is more concerning is that very many on the left will attempt to shut down any debate over immigration by name calling.
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So if it is a Muslim committing an atrocity it = Radicalisation by Islam
If it's a white guy it = mental health issues.
Don't you just love the consistency of approach.
Surely this cuts both ways here?
I see a lot of people who say don't sterotype Muslims, happy to do it for the right wing here.
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Exactly, I'm not sure what your point is.
I have certainly encountered characters, generally in dark corners of pubs, with extreme views and no obvious signs of sanity. Generally they are harmless, but wind them up and give them a gun - and I wouldn't like to be around.
The point is that simply rushing to the judgment that this is all caused by the rhetoric from BREXIT on immigration is a shiny mirror of irony.
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I wasn't trying to lighten the atmosphere in a 'silly' way, but thought some might be interested in the wider picture. Regarding the issue of security, there was an immediate reaction to eurity following the attack on Stephen Timms, and he wondered whether this might lead to more stringent security.
I do see that security on a houseboat would be more difficult than a house or flat, Hope, and get your point. I hadn't thought of that (neither did I think you were trying to lighten the atmosphere, just didn't understand the relevance). However the houseboat is in London, not her constituency, so she'd have had a lower profile there. It's a thought though.
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I am having an interesting discussion elsewhere on this where I was raising my frequently made point that because of social media we get to see the characters from the dark corners of pubs much more because of social media, and the point was raised that it's exactly because of that that we need to try and control our rhetoric more so than before. This seems a valid point and isn't about censorship, rather about recognising that the method of communicating has changed in such a way that we need to be more careful with it, I'm not sure of the solution.
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Dear Rhiannon,
My thoughts and prayers are with Jo Cox's family.
Who to blame, who is at fault for this terrible tragedy, who's fault is it that a man was so disturbed he resorted to this kind of violence, do we blame the overstretched NHS for not treating this poor individual properly, well no, not the NHS fault that our NHS is overstretched by an influx of foriegners, how dare these foreigners use our our NHS.
Do I blame the rise of so called far right groups, why have we got far right groups, what are they protesting about, oh right!! the influx of foreigners eroding our oh so British ways.
Do I blame the millions that are saying to our government, enough is enough, never mind immigrants, what about us, are they right, has the government let them down.
Do I blame the politicians, Jo Cox was a politician, the way this EU referendum farce has been conducted by both sides of the divide, are they at fault.
Do I blame Blair, his jump to go to war, without a thought for the consequences.
Do I blame Islam, that terrible religion which has seen its birth place raped and destroyed by the west.
Just where do I point the finger, well I have to agree with our Prime Minister "we are all in it together".
Gonnagle.
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The point is that simply rushing to the judgment that this is all caused by the rhetoric from BREXIT on immigration is a shiny mirror of irony.
There is a lot of hatred being 'preached' right now, so it seems likely that there is a connection.
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There is a lot of hatred being 'preached' right now, so it seems likely that there is a connection.
At any one time on the internet there seems to be lots of hatred being preached and we seem to have a tendency to always seek to portary the other side as the more hateful, which has its irony. As jakswan has already noted, the constant use of racist to describe peple qiestioing immigration is not conducive to polite discussion, And as Gonzo has raised a loy of the rhetoric of hate had been by politicians on both sides. Rather than immeditely blaming the other side, perhaps we need to reflect on our actions.
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I am having an interesting discussion elsewhere on this where I was raising my frequently made point that because of social media we get to see the characters from the dark corners of pubs much more because of social media, and the point was raised that it's exactly because of that that we need to try and control our rhetoric more so than before. This seems a valid point and isn't about censorship, rather about recognising that the method of communicating has changed in such a way that we need to be more careful with it, I'm not sure of the solution.
And in the web even the darkest of characters say things out loud that they wouldn't in the pub.
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At any one time on the internet there seems to be lots of hatred being preached and we seem to have a tendency to always seek to portary the other side as the more hateful, which has its irony. As jakswan has already noted, the constant use of racist to describe peple qiestioing immigration is not conducive to polite discussion, And as Gonzo has raised a loy of the rhetoric of hate had been by politicians on both sides. Rather than immeditely blaming the other side, perhaps we need to reflect on our actions.
I don't think this person engaged in a murderous attack because he was offended by suggestions that he might be a racist. I think it is more likely that he actually believed he was attacking an 'enemy' - someone who threatened Britain by allowing in" hordes of foreigners" possibly?
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I don't think this person engaged in a murderous attack because he was offended by suggestions that he might be a racist. I think it is more likely that he actually believed he was attacking an 'enemy' - someone who threatened Britain by allowing in" hordes of foreigners" possibly?
I didn't suggest such a thing. Rather that we complain about the 'other sides' use of rhetoric while indulging in the same thing and that each sides use of rhetoric has an impact on the tone.
I've just read a set of tweets from someone who went to a Trump rally which has a host of very frightening stuff about what was said but finishes with one saying ' Trump's candidacy is a virus and must be wiped out'.
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I think Trump should be prosecuted for racist hate speech.
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Dear Forum,
Sorry!! But stating the bleedin! obvious, both tragedies, Birstall, Florida, committed by mentally unstable men, the good people of Florida had a small outlet for their grieving, they could give blood, what can we do, us, Brits, Scots, English, Welsh, Irish, SNP, Liberal, Tory, Labour, hell even the UKIP, write to your MP, what ever the flavour, more funding for the NHS, we did have a drive earlier in the year focusing on mental health, put it back on the agenda, make it your politicians highest priority.
Tell them to shut the F*** up about immigration, tell them to shut their gobs about the EU.
https://www.writetothem.com/
Above is the one I have used.
Gonnagle.
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Tell them to shut the F*** up about immigration, tell them to shut their gobs about the EU.
In other words 'me, I'm the sane one, all the ills of the world are the other side, shut them down they are to blame, my views are best'', a point made whilst a family grieves.
We definitely get the politicians we deserve.
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In other words 'me, I'm the sane one, all the ills of the world are the other side, shut them down they are to blame, my views are best'', a point made whilst a family grieves.
We definitely get the politicians we deserve.
. I don't read Gonnagle's comments in that way. I don't think he is making that comment against one side.
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The point is that simply rushing to the judgment that this is all caused by the rhetoric from BREXIT on immigration is a shiny mirror of irony.
I notice that referendum campaigning has been halted till tomorrow morning. I wonder whether it is tame that the two sides say 'enough is enough' and simply shut up till next Thursday evening. After all, the BBC and, I believe, other media have got their 'Reality Check' websites that folk can look at and study. Furthermore, the campaigning has effectively been going on since before the General Election last year. Is there really anything that can be said that hasn't been said before?
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This stupid referendum is not worth anyone's life.
Except this referendum is about the EU which has murdered thousands. The Greece suicidal rate has shot up; all in the name of the bankers.
I saw her on the Daily Politics and she was a 'no-bollocks' politician and that is someone you can always admire even if you don't always agree with what she said.
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And it would be neither feasible nor sensible to cancel the referendum. Apart from anything else it would create a precedent capable of being used by any random nutter to halt any votes they think are going the wrong way
Perhaps he was working for the EU? Or even worse brainwashed by the EU CIA style to do the dirty deed.
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Dear Sane,
It doesn't matter, a young lady is dead, a mother, a wife, I did something practical this morning, I can now read about the lady, I can watch the video's of her.
I now feel less helpless about this tragedy, Jakswan, Jack knave, hell even Sass can now make their points, hell again, I can agree with some of their points, it doesn't change the fact, a young lady is dead because someone was mentally unstable, I did a small thing, it helps me.
Gonnagle.
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Yeah, but this is David Icke 'prince Charles is an alien' territory. One person one vote sounds great til you realise this lot will be included.
I think you are missing the issue with this line of argument. If it is the rhetoric of the referendum that caused him to do this then it is the crap and outrages lies from the Remain lot that prompted him to act.
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Am I the only one worried about the 'crazed mentally ill' headlines we're seeing? Let's not scapegoat Brexit, let's scapegoat the mentally ill instead.
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Dear Sane,
It doesn't matter, a young lady is dead, a mother, a wife, I did something practical this morning, I can now read about the lady, I can watch the video's of her.
I now feel less helpless about this tragedy, Jakswan, Jack knave, hell even Sass can now make their points, hell again, I can agree with some of their points, it doesn't change the fact, a young lady is dead because someone was mentally unstable, I did a small thing, it helps me.
Gonnagle.
Sass is a Christian she has nothing whatsoever in common with me. Why am I in a list with jack knave? Are you trying to make this some way abourt Brexit, please stop lets just take day off.
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I think that you are wrong. This murder will not be forgotten. It is not just another random tragedy.
It strikes at the heart of our democratic process. It is using violence to achieve a political end - even though it may involve just some deranged individual it is mimicking what some of us see happening in the USA. It is an affront to our political ideals as well as a personal tragedy.
And it happened because a second-rate prime minister had serious party management problems ... The rancour, distortions and appalling behaviour that this referendum has created have all damaged the public face of political life - perhaps seriously. But that this should lead to the murder of a Member of Parliament who was just doing her normal activities as an elected representative is an unspeakable degradation of democracy
And the EU is as good as gold is it? Talk about being democratic!!?!?!?!
The referendum is democratic and decades over due.
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Agreed Rhiannon. He may well have been deranged and certainly a fanatic but it does sort of tar all people with mental health problems, the overwhelming majority of whom are quite safe and law abiding. Very unfair. However that will die down when more facts come to light (we hope).
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Dear Jakswan,
Agreed.
Gonnagle.
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Moderator:
Please note that posts from an identically named thread in 'Politics' have been merged into this thread.
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Am I the only one worried about the 'crazed mentally ill' headlines we're seeing? Let's not scapegoat Brexit, let's scapegoat the mentally ill instead.
Let's not try to scapegoat anyone or any group. Jo Cox, by all accounts, was a woman with deep compassion, an extraordinarily principled lady whose constant aim was to make the world a better place. Her husband has said, in particularly moving words, that hatred doesn't have a creed, race or religion. I, for one, will try my best not to demonise those with whom I disagree. I will try harder to understand another person's point of view. I will attempt to show greater consideration towards the people I meet. I, no doubt at times , will fail abysmally but, for me, because I admire the quality of her all too short life, this is something which I shall try harder to do.
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Perhaps he was working for the EU? Or even worse brainwashed by the EU CIA style to do the dirty deed.
What is it with some Brexiteers that they will believe the more fanciful bollocks?
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More likely Freemasonry is at the bottom of it 8).
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What is it with some Brexiteers that they will believe the more fanciful bollocks?
I wasn't being serious. It was a reaction to the pro-EU lot here who were coming up with their usual vitriol and misconception of linking UKIP with the far right and all the other crap they manage to throw into the mix.
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More likely Freemasonry is at the bottom of it 8).
I'd say our own government in the desperation for sympathy Remain votes. Sacrifice a well loved Pro-EU Labour MP to save Camerons PM-ship by conflating her goodness with the EU project.
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I wasn't being serious. It was a reaction to the pro-EU lot here who were coming up with their usual vitriol and misconception of linking UKIP with the far right and all the other crap they manage to throw into the mix.
I beg your pardon I have to confess I thought you were.
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I'd say our own government in the desperation for sympathy Remain votes. Sacrifice a well loved Pro-EU Labour MP to save Camerons PM-ship by conflating her goodness with the EU project.
Is this a wum?
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I beg your pardon I have to confess I thought you were.
Post hoc. Your reply post didn't convey that.
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Is this a wum?
How can it be a WUM? Who am I winding up? It is highly unlikely but plausible. Cameron's PM-ship is on the line and if he does fail this will be his legacy; not exactly a great way to go.
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Oh, that's alright then.
No. It's not alright. The point I was trying to make was in a few weeks time this event will be superseded by another one..
We all need to be Jellyfish these days!!
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Piece about the work that Brendan Cox was doing prior to the murder of his wife
http://tinyurl.com/hfo9mft
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Fund raising in memory of Jo Cox
https://www.gofundme.com/jocox
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Fund raising in memory of Jo Cox
https://www.gofundme.com/jocox
Thanks I have donated.
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Thanks I have donated.
As have I.
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Very worthwhile charities.
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Dear Forum,
One reply so far from my simple email.
Many thanks for the email.
I don't even have the words to express my thoughts on the tragic murder of Jo Cox.
You are right to raise mental health. I lead on health for my party and have a dedicated junior minister on the issue of mental health. I am also pleased that the Government has a dedicated Mental Health Minister. Our challenge is now to turn those good intentions into proper investment and action.
Jo's husband, Brendan, summed it up beautifully in his statement. Jo was a unifier, who saw what united us, not what divided us. We need to focus on that.
Kind regards,
Anas
Anas Sarwar MSP
Scottish Labour’s Shadow Cabinet Secretary for Health
Member of the Scottish Parliament for Glasgow (Labour)
When a man stands in court and announces that his name is "Death to traitors, freedom for Britain" to me that is a sign of a sick mind, how did one man fall so far that he decided to take a human life so brutally.
To me this also leads on to the fertile ground for recruiting terrorists, when we marginalise certain groups they will look for an outlet, they will drift towards anyone who they think are on their side, if you feel you have let down by society you then become ideal fodder for indoctrination, Jo Cox's husband is right, we need to seek out what unite's us, not divides us.
I know this issue is a lot bigger than just mental health, but I think it is somewhere where we can start, tell me I am wrong and I will shutup.
Gonnagle.
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Absolutely right, Gonners. We must seek out what unites us.
One of the problems is that our political system and political elite have abandoned the public.
The political system is close to being broken. One reason for this is that it evolved in the early years of the Victorian era and has not been modernised - it has become a sacred cow, to be worshipped for itself. The political elite are now technocrats grown within party organisations and owing allegiance only to their parties. They have lost touch with ordinary people. Our electoral system - first past the post - ignores the majority of the electorate who live in "safe seats". Election activity is concentrated in marginal seats.
The political elite ignores the public generally because the public generally make little contribution to their sinecures.
We will not find what unites us or will potentially unite us until the public are re-engaged in the political process.
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You're right Gonners, as is HH.
The politcal elite and ruling classes are merrily off down their own garden path taking their self serving ego's with them. The rest of us are an irrelevence and seem to me to be held in some sort of contempt, but useful tools to put the politicians where they are under the pretence of democracy.
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Dear Forum,
One reply so far from my simple email.
When a man stands in court and announces that his name is "Death to traitors, freedom for Britain" to me that is a sign of a sick mind, how did one man fall so far that he decided to take a human life so brutally.
To me this also leads on to the fertile ground for recruiting terrorists, when we marginalise certain groups they will look for an outlet, they will drift towards anyone who they think are on their side, if you feel you have let down by society you then become ideal fodder for indoctrination, Jo Cox's husband is right, we need to seek out what unite's us, not divides us.
I know this issue is a lot bigger than just mental health, but I think it is somewhere where we can start, tell me I am wrong and I will shutup.
Gonnagle.
Gonners,
I know you mean well.
I have a 'sick mind'; I'm mentally ill. I pose no danger to anyone, not even myself.
Treating mental health properly will resolve and prevent untold misery for far, far too many people. It will save lives through suicide prevention. But the number of murders it will prevent are very small.
There will be people killed each week by people who don't like their skin colour, their sexuality, their clothes, because they looked at them funny. The people that punch and kick people to death in our pubs, parks and city centres rarely have a mental illness that accounts for killing. Rather they live with an attitude that difference is wrong and to be despised and eradicated.
I am frightened enough about being open about having mental illness. Snd I shouldn't be any more than someone should be frightened about telling people they have arthritis or a stomach ulcer.
The emphasis on mental illness in this terrible case by the right-wing press is a shameful attempt to deflect from their part in stoking anti immigration feeling in this country. And it is deeply, deeply worrying.
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Dear Rhiannon,
Thank you for being honest, but I think if it save just one life then it is worth it.
The emphasis on mental illness in this terrible case by the right-wing press is a shameful attempt to deflect from their part in stoking anti immigration feeling in this country. And it is deeply, deeply worrying.
Strange but I don't see any emphasis, all I see is a press who like me are trying to understand why, and all I know is that a perfectly sane person would not have committed such a horrible brutal crime.
Gonnagle.
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Dear Rhiannon,
Thank you for being honest, but I think if it save just one life then it is worth it.
Strange but I don't see any emphasis, all I see is a press who like me are trying to understand why, and all I know is that a perfectly sane person would not have committed such a horrible brutal crime.
Gonnagle.
Proper mental health provision will save thousands of lives. Just not prevent that many murders.
We need to rethink how we talk about mental illness. It's so vast in what it takes in, it makes no more sense than describing someone as 'physically ill'.
I'm guessing you haven't seen the emphasis on the killer's mental illness in the right-wing press because you avert your eyes whenever you are confronted by a copy of the Daily Mail.
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Dear JP and Harrowby,
Yes I watched a video of Jo Cox when she first became an MP, all the stupid rules she needed to learn. It is old, it does need reforming, watching Prime Ministers question time, it is a joke, shouting down someone who is trying to make a point is like watching a schoolyard argument.
One thing we could do, tell Cameron to stop worrying about what suit or tie an individual is wearing and concentrate on what they are trying to say.
Gonnagle.
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Rhiannon: I have a 'sick mind'; I'm mentally ill. I pose no danger to anyone, not even myself.
I stand shoulder to shoulder with Rhiannon on that statement.
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Dear Rhiannon,
I don't read the Daily Mail, most of my news comes from auntie Beeb, and I admit the links to newspapers I come across on this forum.
We need to rethink how we talk about mental illness. It's so vast in what it takes in, it makes no more sense than describing someone as 'physically ill'.
Agreed, it is a vast subject, it is not just a problem for our NHS, it is societies problem at all levels, here's a thought for you, all public gyms, swimming baths should be free, transport to them should be easily accessible and affordable, this small step would save the NHS millions, here's another, car owners become second class citizens, you are actively frowned upon if you do not walk or cycle to work, walk ways and cycle routes are our focus, not bloody motorways.
Gonnagle.
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Proper mental health provision will save thousands of lives. Just not prevent that many murders.
We need to rethink how we talk about mental illness. It's so vast in what it takes in, it makes no more sense than describing someone as 'physically ill'.
I'm guessing you haven't seen the emphasis on the killer's mental illness in the right-wing press because you avert your eyes whenever you are confronted by a copy of the Daily Mail.
I saw that. What was going through the mind of the D.Mail was Why take the rap for filling peoples heads with Right Wing shite when you can blame some hapless psychiatric social worker and slyly make the case for privatisation in the process?
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I saw that. What was going through the mind of the D.Mail was Why take the rap for filling peoples heads with Right Wing shite when you can blame some hapless psychiatric social worker and slyly make the case for privatisation in the process?
Absolutely, Vlad. It's despicable.
Newsthump noticed too.
http://newsthump.com/2016/06/17/daily-mail-trying-hard-to-avoid-saying-thomas-mair-agreed-with-everything-they-write/
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Absolutely, Vlad. It's despicable.
Newsthump noticed too.
http://newsthump.com/2016/06/17/daily-mail-trying-hard-to-avoid-saying-thomas-mair-agreed-with-everything-they-write/
Spot on.
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So if it is a Muslim committing an atrocity it = Radicalisation by Islam
If it's a white guy it = mental health issues.
Don't you just love the consistency of approach.
Some Muslims are white guys.
You can be radicalised by reading stuff on political Islam or Nazi stuff.
Both can make someone have mental health issues, or can make their problems worse.
Anyway in this instance it depends if the attacker has a history of it and needed treatment for it.
The colour of his skin is irrelevant.
If someone has had treatment in the past it is relevant to look at it.
It appears both the killer of Jo Cox and the attacker in the Orlando gay club attack both had treatment for a mental illness of some sort prior to this.
How relevant it is, needs to be determined.
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I was really impressed by the words spoken by Jo Cox's sister on the news last night. They weren't just moving, there was a great power and a dignity there.
They are obviously a very close and strong family.
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I was really impressed by the words spoken by Jo Cox's sister on the news last night. They weren't just moving, there was a great power and a dignity there.
They are obviously a very close and strong family.
Agreed. I was pleased to hear there was no mention of God and wonder whether anyone knows if Jo Cox was a believer or not. At a guess, I'd say the latter.
Just before 10:0 o'clock there was a young man talking about the death of his wife (killed by a car) and how he told his two-year-old son his mother was dead. He did not use euphemisms like ;gone to heaven' or some such.
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I'm ambivalent about the decisions by the main parties not to stand in the Batley and Spen by election as I feel voters should be given a chance to speak but it appears there will be a vote.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/dead-murdered-labour-mp-batley-and-spen-by-election-bnp-politician-jack-buckby-a7089966.html
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I'm ambivalent about the decisions by the main parties not to stand in the Batley and Spen by election as I feel voters should be given a chance to speak but it appears there will be a vote.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/dead-murdered-labour-mp-batley-and-spen-by-election-bnp-politician-jack-buckby-a7089966.html
I suppose the people of Batley and Spen would not have expected an election until 2020 so they are hardly missing-out on the normal democratic process, and under the circumstances, no other party would want to be seen to benefit from such a tragedy.
P.S. For some reason the link wouldn't come up before so I missed it's significance. I don't think that guy is going to be too popular.
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I suppose the people of Batley and Spen would not have expected an election until 2020 so they are hardly missing-out on the normal democratic process, and under the circumstances, no other party would want to be seen to benefit from such a tragedy.
If Jo Cox had been hit by a car and killed, the normal political process would have been a by election.
In addition the move was promoted by Grant Shapps less a day after her murder. Most political parties hadn't thought about it at all at that stage but were then chased by the media to match Shapps position. Given the speed and open declaring of it, it seems to me dpossible that it wasn't somehow calculated to look good. In part,I dislike that I even think that.
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Article by Jo Cox on foreign policy has been republished
http://www.fabians.org.uk/archive-jo-cox-on-progressive-internationalism/
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If Jo Cox had been hit by a car and killed, the normal political process would have been a by election.
In addition the move was promoted by Grant Shapps less a day after her murder. Most political parties hadn't thought about it at all at that stage but were then chased by the media to match Shapps position. Given the speed and open declaring of it, it seems to me dpossible that it wasn't somehow calculated to look good. In part,I dislike that I even think that.
That's all very well, but who wants to be seen to benefit from a murder? . . .(apart from the likes of the BNP)
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That's all very well, but who wants to be seen to benefit from a murder? . . .(apart from the likes of the BNP)
who would want to be seen to benefit from a tragic accident like an MP being killed by a car?
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who would want to be seen to benefit from a tragic accident like an MP being killed by a car?
These things sadly happen all the time and life goes on - murder is (thankfully) less commonplace and this one was particularly tragic.
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These things sadly happen all the time and life goes on - murder is (thankfully) less commonplace and this one was particularly tragic.
why is it anymore tragic than if she had been hit by a car. Why is it anymore taking advantage of tragedy standing in a by election than had she died of a brain tumour?
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I wonder if there's a kind of guilt being expressed here? I mean, that politicians may feel that their campaigning has opened a Pandora's box of craziness, leading to Jo Cox's death. I'm not saying that this is correct, but that people may unconsciously feel responsible for it.
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why is it anymore tragic than if she had been hit by a car. Why is it anymore taking advantage of tragedy standing in a by election than had she died of a brain tumour?
That might be an interesting philosophical question but in our society it just is
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That might be an interesting philosophical question but in our society it just is
That's a truism and if applied stops all discussion.
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My opinion is, if Jo Cox had been accidentally hit by a car and killed it would have been shocking and tragic, but an accident; had she died of an illness it would have been tragic but natural. She was killed by someone else which is truly shocking and frightening because it was deliberate and showed extreme hatred on the part of another person, very difficult to make sense of.
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why is it anymore tragic than if she had been hit by a car. Why is it anymore taking advantage of tragedy standing in a by election than had she died of a brain tumour?
NS, I think the difference is the element of intentionality.
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NS, I think the difference is the element of intentionality.
How does that make it more tragic?
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I wonder if there's a kind of guilt being expressed here? I mean, that politicians may feel that their campaigning has opened a Pandora's box of craziness, leading to Jo Cox's death. I'm not saying that this is correct, but that people may unconsciously feel responsible for it.
Dunno do you think Muslims feel guilty for Islamic extremists? Personally I think that would be daft, any ideology that one might follow should not be judged by an extreme version of it.
From what I have heard of Jo Cox she was comfortable dealing with Tories as Labour and was not at all tribal, you should learn a lesson in this regard.
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To NS (I think): It was deliberate and showed extreme hatred on the part of another person, very difficult to make sense of.
Wigginhall, I agree. We cannot judge an ideology by the actions of some extremists and it is so wrong that people do. I would think most Muslims are horrified and, however misguided, feel guilty by association when terrorism is committed by other Muslims, but they are NOT guilty. It's just a human reaction. I can imagine I would feel like that in the same position.
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My opinion is, if Jo Cox had been accidentally hit by a car and killed it would have been shocking and tragic, but an accident; had she died of an illness it would have been tragic but natural. She was killed by someone else which is truly shocking and frightening because it was deliberate and showed extreme hatred on the part of another person, very difficult to make sense of.
saying something accidental is an accident adds nothing. The question is why this should mean that in one case people standing in a by election would be taking advantage of a tradedy, yet not in the other case?
The best argument I can see in this case is not about trying to take advantage of tragedy but to be seen to present a united front against such acts of terror. And yet it seems in one sense to adapt for the terror rather than confronting it by acting as normal. Further
, my issue about how it was pursued might be seen as trying to gain kudos through being quickest to withdraw. As I said at the start of thus part of the thread, I'm ambivalent about this as an approach, not saying that it is wrong.
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How does that make it more tragic?
I'm afraid it does come across as though you're not grasping the concept of intentionality.
Dying of a brain tumour (or equivalent - car accident etc.) and being murdered in the street are both purely random occurrences, but the latter has an element of deliberate malice to it - somebody purposely ended a life.
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Dunno do you think Muslims feel guilty for Islamic extremists? Personally I think that would be daft, any ideology that one might follow should not be judged by an extreme version of it.
From what I have heard of Jo Cox she was comfortable dealing with Tories as Labour and was not at all tribal, you should learn a lesson in this regard.
Moderator: content removed. The day I take lessons from you about tribalism, is the day that hell freezes over.
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I'm afraid it does come across as though you're not grasping the concept of intentionality.
Dying of a brain tumour (or equivalent - car accident etc.) and being murdered in the street are both purely random occurrences, but the latter has an element of deliberate malice to it - somebody purposely ended a life.
No, I'm not seeing why the intentionality makes a difference. Simply saying that something is different in one way doesn't make it qualitatively different in some other judgement. Given that had Jo Cox died in a car accident, or from a brain tumour would as everyone here agrees be tragic, why would standing in a by election in those circumstances not be taking advantage of tragedy, but in this case it is?
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Dunno do you think Muslims feel guilty for Islamic extremists? Personally I think that would be daft, any ideology that one might follow should not be judged by an extreme version of it.
From what I have heard of Jo Cox she was comfortable dealing with Tories as Labour and was not at all tribal, you should learn a lesson in this regard.
given that wigginghall specifically notes that the impression may be incorrect, I fail to see the justification for your response here.
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I'm afraid it does come across as though you're not grasping the concept of intentionality.
Dying of a brain tumour (or equivalent - car accident etc.) and being murdered in the street are both purely random occurrences, but the latter has an element of deliberate malice to it - somebody purposely ended a life.
Yes. There's a difference when someone deliberately sets out to end life and cause suffering to as many as possible.
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Yes. There's a difference when someone deliberately sets out to end life and cause suffering to as many as possible.
in terms of the circumstances, no one is denying it, the question is whether the difference is relevant to standing in a by election. Again as previously noted, the argument was made that it was appropriate not to stand because it was taking advantage of a tragedy, surely that would be true whether the death was intentional or not?
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in terms of the circumstances, no one is denying it, the question is whether the difference is relevant to standing in a by election. Again as previously noted, the argument was made that it was appropriate not to stand because it was taking advantage of a tragedy, surely that would be true whether the death was intentional or not?
The difference is that many MPs now seem to think that being threatened and attacked is an occupational hazard.
MPs (of all parties) are reacting to one of their own being murdered. Anyone could die in a car crash. Anyone could die from cancer. Only an MP can be killed on the way to meet their constituents.
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Just to note that the last MP murdered in office was Ian Gow, Conservative, there was a by election which was won by the Lib Dems
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That's a truism and if applied stops all discussion.
Yes, I think it stops this discussion - of course we might debate why it is more distressing to have a loved one murdered than killed in an accident, but I don't think this is the thread to do it on.
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The difference is that many MPs now seem to think that being threatened and attacked is an occupational hazard.
MPs (of all parties) are reacting to one of their own being murdered. Anyone could die in a car crash. Anyone could die from cancer. Only an MP can be killed on the way to meet their constituents.
and I agree that they will correctly identify more with the circumstances, though in terms of the formulation, only an MP could die in a car crash on their way to meet their constituents is just as true. Anyone can be murdered..
And once again the question was if it would be taking advantage of tragedy to stand in a by election in this case, how would that not apply if she had died of a brain tumour?
As I have already covered, I think there are better arguments for not standing but even though seem to have problems. When Ian Gow was murdered part of the reason for there being a contested by by election was precisely to show that terrorism would not affect how we acted.
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Yes, I think it stops this discussion - of course we might debate why it is more distressing to have a loved one murdered than killed in an accident, but I don't think this is the thread to do it on.
no,it stops all discussions if we just say what happen, happens. If you do not want to participate in a discussion about how we should react to this atrocity, then you don't have to. I fail to see where else we would discuss it.
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Moderator: content removed. The day I take lessons from you about tribalism, is the day that hell freezes over.
You would taking a lesson from Jo Cox, do try to keep up. As a libdem its hard to be tribal but I will say the left can be as bad as the right. Dont delude yourself you are somehow better I can assure you that you are not.
Frankly fed up with one side labeling the other a bunch of racists and the other as a bunch of terrorist supporters.
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You would taking a lesson from Jo Cox, do try to keep up. As a libdem its hard to be tribal but I will say the left can be as bad as the right. Dont delude yourself you are somehow better I can assure you that you are not.
Frankly fed up with one side labeling the other a bunch of racists and the other as a bunch of terrorist supporters.
Don't think wigginhall's post reads that way
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I'm afraid it does come across as though you're not grasping the concept of intentionality.
Dying of a brain tumour (or equivalent - car accident etc.) and being murdered in the street are both purely random occurrences, but the latter has an element of deliberate malice to it - somebody purposely ended a life.
Yes, I agree with this. I think that in addition there was the intention on the part of the murderer of interfering with the democratic process. I think that this is why the major parties are standing back.
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Yes, wax it right that the democratic process led to an MP from another party getting elected after the murder of Ian Gow? Arguably that is one thing that his murderers wanted.
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Until we get a clear account of why he did it and what was going through his mind we can't really constructively comment on the events.
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in terms of the circumstances, no one is denying it, the question is whether the difference is relevant to standing in a by election. Again as previously noted, the argument was made that it was appropriate not to stand because it was taking advantage of a tragedy, surely that would be true whether the death was intentional or not?
NS, I think it is borne out of tradition. In the past, when MPs have died of natural causes, I don't think that other parties have felt it wrong to put a candiate into the subsequent by-election. Similarly, when one has been killed in an accident, such as a car crash or the like. Generally, there has been nothing to indicate that such a death has been premeditated by a 3rd party. (not sure whether any MP has ever committed suicide, and therefore how folk would approach that).
This case (along with the case of Stephen Timms and one or two others examples) was clearly premeditated by a 3rd party and it is that premediatation that seems to swing the attitudes.
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NS, I think it is borne out of tradition. In the past, when MPs have died of natural causes, I don't think that other parties have felt it wrong to put a candiate into the subsequent by-election. Similarly, when one has been killed in an accident, such as a car crash or the like. Generally, there has been nothing to indicate that such a death has been premeditated by a 3rd party. (not sure whether any MP has ever committed suicide, and therefore how folk would approach that).
This case (along with the case of Stephen Timms and one or two others examples) was clearly premeditated by a 3rd party and it is that premediatation that seems to swing the attitudes.
As already noted, the last murdered MP was Ian Gow. By election happened.
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Yes, wax it right that the democratic process led to an MP from another party getting elected after the murder of Ian Gow? Arguably that is one thing that his murderers wanted.
Was Bellotti supportive of or antagonistic to Maggie's efforts to thwart the IRA?
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As already noted, the last murdered MP was Ian Gow. By election happened.
And did the Prov IRA get an MP who was supportive of them or not?
I suppose the issue is whether the UK was in a state of 'civil war' at the time of Gow's death (some historians would say that we were pretty close, if not already there) as opposed to our present situation apropos the EU referendum.
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.... not sure whether any MP has ever committed suicide, and therefore how folk would approach that ...
Stephen Milligan, MP for Eastleigh, hanged himself - but it was not considered to be suicide since it appeared he was engaged in an erotic experiment.
It is believed that he was endeavouring to improve the experience of orgasm while pleasuring himself by restricting his oxygen intake.
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(not sure whether any MP has ever committed suicide, and therefore how folk would approach that).
I do wish that some of these clever computer boffins could invent something where you can look up stuff ::)
https://goo.gl/lpcHUi
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I do wish that some of these clever computer boffins could invent something where you can look up stuff ::)
https://goo.gl/lpcHUi
So do I, rather than bringing up an item that is effectively 134 pages long and through which one has to wade to find a single detail. When I googled the suicide/MP/UK link, it came up with several items but oddly enough Googe decided that day to regard other parts of the world as acceptable inclusions. Does the mobile version of something like wikipedia differ from the PC version in anything other than layout?
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So do I, rather than bringing up an item that is effectively 134 pages long and through which one has to wade to find a single detail.
It's broken down into clear sections - including one about MPs who have killed themselves.
Have you had this problem using Wikipedia long?
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It's broken down into clear sections - including one about MPs who have killed themselves.
Have you had this problem using Wikipedia long?
Unfortunately, this particular link didn't appear in my Google search. Usually wikipedia items are amongst the first in the listings.
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Unfortunately, this particular link didn't appear in my Google search. Usually wikipedia items are amongst the first in the listings.
It's what Shaker's link takes you to if you cut and paste it. He had done the work for you.
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It's what Shaker's link takes you to if you cut and paste it. He had done the work for you.
Didn't have to cut and paste it, NS. All I did was highlight the link, right clicked on it, and then clicked on the 'Go to ... ' option.