Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => Politics & Current Affairs => Topic started by: john on June 24, 2016, 05:57:46 AM
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Its gonna be a bumpy ride.
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Technically, we are not out - yet.
Article 50 has to be invoked and then a period of negotiation ....
What, I think, can be said is that David Cameron is the least competent prime minister since Anthony Eden. Not only has he triggered the departure of the UK from the EU but also the dissolution of the United Kingdom - all by putting the interests of the Conservative Party before those of the country.
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It's very difficult to see a 'good' way out of this mess that we have created. Probably a Norway style deal would be the 'least bad' option - but that wouldn't really satisfy anyone.
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Already the pound has fallen dramatically.
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It's very difficult to see a 'good' way out of this mess that we have created. Probably a Norway style deal would be the 'least bad' option - but that wouldn't really satisfy anyone.
We won't get a deal that good. Everybody else in the EU is shitting themselves about their own population so we cannot be seen to do well out of this.
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We won't get a deal that good. Everybody else in the EU is shitting themselves about their own population so we cannot be seen to do well out of this.
If we can't settle some kind of deal PDQ, we are likely to be in recession with rising unemployment, rising taxes and a falling pound, that mean rising prices and inflation, which all adds up to the kind of stagflation we saw in the 60's.
Not a good prospect!
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Rule Britannia, Britannia waves the rules. Perhaps there will be enough 'glass half full' people left in the country to see opportunities where others only see gloom and doom. All we need now is a Brexit from the European Championships and the depression should be complete for many.
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And on a purely pedantic note it should be:
We're out.
Listen I know it's picky but I'm feeling royally pissed off at the stupidity of the 'Great British' public - so let me work it out of my system the way I want to.
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Rule Britannia, Britannia waves the rules. Perhaps there will be enough 'glass half full' people left in the country to see opportunities where others only see gloom and doom. All we need now is a Brexit from the European Championships and the depression should be complete for many.
Difficult to see the 'glass half full', when some silly buggers have just emptied it down the drain!
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A 'glass totally empty' person then.
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A 'glass totally empty' person then.
No, it looks like the glass is smashed!
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David Cameron and the Remain team must be really proud of you lot!
NO-ONE can be certain of what happens now -niot even you lot, certainly not me, but, true to Operation Fear you are continuing it even in defeat. Try standing up and trying to make it work - we lost - accept that and work to get the best we can out of it, instead of sitting back and expecting everyone else to do the work for you!
You are acting just like the Labour supporters and Trade Unionists rioting after Labour lost the last election - this is supposed to be a democracy - the will of the majority as shown via the Ballot Box!
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And on a purely pedantic note it should be:
We're out.
Listen I know it's picky but I'm feeling royally pissed off at the stupidity of the 'Great British' public - so let me work it out of my system the way I want to.
I am gutted, Trentvoyager. I honestly didn't think the UK would be leaving. A victory for the ill educated, ignorant, xenophobic. It is rare that I care so much about a political issue.
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My husband and Baby daughter, like myself, are feeling extremely depressed today. I haven't spoken to our other two girls, but as I know they voted to remain, they will no doubt be feeling that way too.
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Dear Brownie,
A victory for the ill educated, ignorant, xenophobic.
Well em!! :o :o
Gonnagle.
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I am gutted, Trentvoyager. I honestly didn't think the UK would be leaving. A victory for the ill educated, ignorant, xenophobic. It is rare that I care so much about a political issue.
It's sweeping generalisations like this during campaigning that only fuelled the fire of divisiveness - an attempt to scare people off from voting leave for fear of being labelled as such. It clearly didn't work.
What's done is done now, and while I understand how aggrieved some remain voters feel, it's time to stop slinging the mud and find away to pull together.
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In order to get out of the mess the BREXIT lot have created!
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Dear Andy,
A voice of reason, but we are Brits, lets us have our little whinge, it's what we do best ::)
Gonnagle.
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. . .
What's done is done now, and while I understand how aggrieved some remain voters feel, it's time to stop slinging the mud and find away to pull together.
I think there is still the question of which direction we should be pulling.
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I think there is still the question of which direction we should be pulling.
Unless something drastic happens, we're pulling out of the EU whether we like it or not. For remainers at least, it's now about finding a way of turning a negative into a positive, or as small a negative as possible.
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Unless something drastic happens, we're pulling out of the EU whether we like it or not. For remainers at least, it's now about finding a way of turning a negative into a positive, or as small a negative as possible.
But the big question is whether we go for a Norway type deal of just stick our necks right out and try for some kind of 'free trade' arrangement.
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Dear Andy,
A voice of reason, but we are Brits, lets us have our little whinge, it's what we do best ::)
Gonnagle.
I know, we like a piss and moan, just can't be doing with divisiveness. It happens on both sides, though. Farage was no better last night with his premature victory speech.
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I am gutted, Trentvoyager. I honestly didn't think the UK would be leaving. A victory for the ill educated, ignorant, xenophobic. It is rare that I care so much about a political issue.
That's right - when you lose because of your policies resort to name calling - that will really get people on your side - how many voted Leave because they were labeled racist by Remain!
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I know, we like a piss and moan, just can't be doing with divisiveness. It happens on both sides, though. Farage was no better last night with his premature victory speech.
Effectively this was a battle that neither side could effectively win! As for Farage I hope to Hell and gone that he has no part in trying to sort out what happens next. IT would be like putting an arsonist in charge of a fuel dump!
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I am gutted, Trentvoyager. I honestly didn't think the UK would be leaving. A victory for the ill educated, ignorant, xenophobic. It is rare that I care so much about a political issue.
I am disappointed myself, but perhaps it is just this sort of approach to (some of) the people who voted out that made them do it. I would expect it from the right, but the left were great at not paying attention to the people they were supposed to represent, labelling them as bigots and racists where concerns were raised again and again. Full of self importance politicians too full of "we know what's good for you" and now the chickens have well and truly come home to roost. Fertile ground created, ripe for exploitation by Boris et al.
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You've certainly got a point JP.
Well, as someone above said, we are having a whinge right now - but tomorrow is another day and we'll 'get on with it'. Life goes on.
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the will of the majority as shown via the Ballot Box!
Unless you're scottish. Their parliament had this result as a clause that would lead to another independence referendum in Scotland. Great.
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Unless you're scottish. Their parliament had this result as a clause that would lead to another independence referendum in Scotland. Great.
Better than great: superb, when compared with the prospect of PM Boris!
In 2014 one of the scare tactics from the naysayers was that an independent Scotland would have to leave the EU: in view of recent events the irony of this won't be lost on the Scottish electorate should there be another independence referendum.
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That's right - when you lose because of your policies resort to name calling - that will really get people on your side - how many voted Leave because they were labeled racist by Remain!
The Leave campaign was a long list of unmitigated lies. If the Remainers called them liars, it is because they are liars.
The Leave campaign has no idea what to do now. The pound is at its worst level since 1985. The FTSE 100 is almost 300 points down. Hey xenophobic fuckwits: what's the plan? This morning it seemed to be "ask David Cameron to stay on and sort out the mess we created". If I could leave this country, I would and let you wallow in your small minded little England moronity.
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Better than great: superb, when compared with the prospect of PM Boris!
In 2014 one of the scare tactics from the naysayers was that an independent Scotland would have to leave the EU: in view of recent events the irony of this won't be lost on the Scottish electorate should there be another independence referendum.
Independent Scotland will already be out of the EU and would have to reapply. But on the positive side, there will only be 27 other countries to convince, not 28.
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Dear Gordon,
Better than great: superb, when compared with the prospect of PM Boris!
Nicola's little speech this morning was very telling, I now can walk away and say, it's your mess, lie in it, I can't think of a single thing which would now stop me from voting Independence, on another thread there is a list of prospective candidates for PM, none of them fill me with any hope :(
Dear Jeremyp,
If I could leave this country, I would and let you wallow in your small minded little England moronity.
Come and join us, we have plenty of room, quick before they shut our borders :(
Gonnagle.
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What, I think, can be said is that David Cameron is the least competent prime minister since Anthony Eden. Not only has he triggered the departure of the UK from the EU but also the dissolution of the United Kingdom - all by putting the interests of the Conservative Party before those of the country.
I would disagree, H. He is possibly the most competent in that he recognised that both Labour and Tories are split down the middle. I believe the result is bad for the UK and far further afield, but at least we now know where not only the Tories stand. If Maggie and Tony had allowed referenda on their respective treaties, I'm not sure we'd be in the situation in the first place.
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We won't get a deal that good. Everybody else in the EU is shitting themselves about their own population so we cannot be seen to do well out of this.
No, what that means is that the ruling elites will have to rethink their plans and accommodate the peoples' wishes. That'll mean that the kind of deal we are after will be given to all i.e. treaty change for the peoples' good.
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No, what that means is that the ruling elites will have to rethink their plans and accommodate the peoples' wishes. That'll mean that the kind of deal we are after will be given to all i.e. treaty change for the peoples' good.
All the people have recently signalled in the last two elections in five years are
Brexit and first past the post.
What are the people asking in terms of treaty change for the people's good?
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The constitutional historian,Peter Hennessy, made an interesting observation on the PM programme on BBC Radio 4 this evening.
He was talking about the demographic analysis of voting patterns and observed that, in age terms, younger voters wanted to remain in the EU and older voters wanted to leave. So, the people at the work face of the economy, the managers and wealth generators, and also those stepping into those positions, are having their own wishes and options taken away from them by people about to leave those positions and by people who are no longer active in the workforce.
What might happen, in the not-too-distant future,when these young people realise that they have been cheated?
It also strikes me that a Boris Johnson prime ministerial selection would almost certainly be the consequence of choices made by the elderly.
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No, what that means is that the ruling elites will have to rethink their plans and accommodate the peoples' wishes. That'll mean that the kind of deal we are after will be given to all i.e. treaty change for the peoples' good.
The Swedish trade minister has already stated that he is going to start persuading companies based in Britain to relocate to Sweden. I'm sure there are 26 other trade ministers who have all got plans to do the same thing. Tell me that doesn't frighten you.
This isn't independence, it's relegation from the Premier League and like a relegated football team, we are going to be stripped of our best players.
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The Swedish trade minister has already stated that he is going to start persuading companies based in Britain to relocate to Sweden. I'm sure there are 26 other trade ministers who have all got plans to do the same thing. Tell me that doesn't frighten you.
This isn't independence, it's relegation from the Premier League and like a relegated football team, we are going to be stripped of our best players.
Hardly surprising, we will lose a lot of good companies if we are not very careful.
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This is an interesting article I came across:
http://www.sunderlandecho.com/news/business/nissan-says-no-comment-on-future-of-sunderland-plant-after-brexit-1-7980813
The 'No Comment' seems quite ominous to me.
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The Swedish trade minister has already stated that he is going to start persuading companies based in Britain to relocate to Sweden. I'm sure there are 26 other trade ministers who have all got plans to do the same thing. Tell me that doesn't frighten you.
This isn't independence, it's relegation from the Premier League and like a relegated football team, we are going to be stripped of our best players.
There has also been the suggestion that Airbus will move its wing manufacture from Bristol and North Wales to France. This is a very high tech operation, highly skilled and at the cutting edge of design and manufacturing.
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This is an interesting article I came across:
http://www.sunderlandecho.com/news/business/nissan-says-no-comment-on-future-of-sunderland-plant-after-brexit-1-7980813
The 'No Comment' seems quite ominous to me.
Nissan, of course, is 42% owned by Renault. Several model from both companies share common platforms. It would make sense to build vehicles for both marques in one factory.
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Reading all your post has me crying in my wine with tears of joy
Cadbury moved factory to Poland 2011 with EU grant.
Ford Transit moved to Turkey 2013 with EU grant.
Jaguar Land Rover has recently agreed to build a new plant in Slovakia with EU grant, owned by Tata, the same company who have trashed our steel works and emptied the workers pension funds.
Peugeot closed its Ryton (was Rootes Group) plant and moved production to Slovakia with EU grant.
British Army's new Ajax fighting vehicles to be built in SPAIN using SWEDISH steel at the request of the EU to support jobs in Spain with EU grant, rather than Wales.
Dyson gone to Malaysia, with an EU loan.
Crown Closures, Bournemouth (Was METAL BOX), gone to Poland with EU grant, once employed 1,200.
M&S manufacturing gone to far east with EU loan.
Hornby models gone. In fact all toys and models now gone from UK along with the patents all with with EU grants.
Gillette gone to eastern Europe with EU grant.
Texas Instruments Greenock gone to Germany with EU grant.
Indesit at Bodelwyddan Wales gone with EU grant.
Sekisui Alveo said production at its Merthyr Tydfil Industrial Park foam plant will relocate production to Roermond in the Netherlands, with EU funding.
Hoover Merthyr factory moved out of UK to Czech Republic and the Far East by Italian company Candy with EU backing.
ICI integration into Holland's AkzoNobel with EU bank loan and within days of the merger, several factories in the UK, were closed, eliminating 3,500 jobs
Boots sold to Italians Stefano Pessina who have based their HQ in Switzerland to avoid tax to the tune of £80 million a year, using an EU loan for the purchase.
JDS Uniphase run by two Dutch men, bought up companies in the UK with £20 million in EU 'regeneration' grants, created a pollution nightmare and just closed it all down leaving 1,200 out of work and an environmental clean-up paid for by the UK tax-payer. They also raided the pension fund and drained it dry.
UK airports are owned by a Spanish company.
Scottish Power is owned by a Spanish company.
Most London buses are run by Spanish and German companies.
The Hinkley Point C nuclear power station to be built by French company EDF, part owned by the French government, using cheap Chinese steel that has catastrophically failed in other nuclear installations. Now EDF say the costs will be double or more and it will be very late even if it does come online.
Swindon was once our producer of rail locomotives and rolling stock. Not any more, it's Bombardier in Derby and due to their losses in the aviation market, that could see the end of the British railways manufacturing altogether even though Bombardier had EU grants to keep Derby going which they diverted to their loss-making aviation side in Canada.
39% of British invention patents have been passed to foreign companies, many of them in the EU
The Mini cars that Cameron stood in front of as an example of British engineering, are built by BMW mostly in Holland and Austria. His campaign bus was made in Germany even though we have Plaxton, Optare, Bluebird, Dennis etc., in the UK. The bicycle for the Greens was made in the far east, not by Raleigh UK but then they are probably going to move to the Netherlands too as they have said recently.
Anyone who thinks the EU is good for British industry or any other business simply hasn't paid attention to what has been systematically asset-stripped from the UK. Name me one major technology company still running in the UK, I used to contract out to many, then the work just dried up as they were sold off to companies from France, Germany, Holland, Belgium, etc., and now we don't even teach electronic technology for technicians any more, due to EU regulations.
I haven't detailed our non-existent fishing industry the EU paid to destroy, nor the farmers being paid NOT to produce food they could sell for more than they get paid to do nothing, don't even go there.
I haven't mentioned what it costs us to be asset-stripped like this, nor have I mentioned immigration, nor the risk to our security if control of our armed forces is passed to Brussels or Germany.
Find something that's gone the other way, I've looked and I just can't. If you think the EU is a good idea,
1/ You haven't read the party manifesto of The European Peoples' Party.
2/ You haven't had to deal with EU petty bureaucracy tearing your business down.
3/ You don't think it matters.
~TW~
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Well we are going to have to turn it around somehow.
Show some old fashioned Dunkirk spirit, I guess, and pull together.
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Well done! The beginning of thr fall of the EU hopefully. At least the English didn't bottle it.
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Reading all your post has me crying in my wine with tears of joy
Cadbury moved factory to Poland 2011 with EU grant.
Ford Transit moved to Turkey 2013 with EU grant.
Jaguar Land Rover has recently agreed to build a new plant in Slovakia with EU grant, owned by Tata, the same company who have trashed our steel works and emptied the workers pension funds.
Peugeot closed its Ryton (was Rootes Group) plant and moved production to Slovakia with EU grant.
British Army's new Ajax fighting vehicles to be built in SPAIN using SWEDISH steel at the request of the EU to support jobs in Spain with EU grant, rather than Wales.
Dyson gone to Malaysia, with an EU loan.
Crown Closures, Bournemouth (Was METAL BOX), gone to Poland with EU grant, once employed 1,200.
M&S manufacturing gone to far east with EU loan.
Hornby models gone. In fact all toys and models now gone from UK along with the patents all with with EU grants.
Gillette gone to eastern Europe with EU grant.
Texas Instruments Greenock gone to Germany with EU grant.
Indesit at Bodelwyddan Wales gone with EU grant.
Sekisui Alveo said production at its Merthyr Tydfil Industrial Park foam plant will relocate production to Roermond in the Netherlands, with EU funding.
Hoover Merthyr factory moved out of UK to Czech Republic and the Far East by Italian company Candy with EU backing.
ICI integration into Holland's AkzoNobel with EU bank loan and within days of the merger, several factories in the UK, were closed, eliminating 3,500 jobs
Boots sold to Italians Stefano Pessina who have based their HQ in Switzerland to avoid tax to the tune of £80 million a year, using an EU loan for the purchase.
JDS Uniphase run by two Dutch men, bought up companies in the UK with £20 million in EU 'regeneration' grants, created a pollution nightmare and just closed it all down leaving 1,200 out of work and an environmental clean-up paid for by the UK tax-payer. They also raided the pension fund and drained it dry.
UK airports are owned by a Spanish company.
Scottish Power is owned by a Spanish company.
Most London buses are run by Spanish and German companies.
The Hinkley Point C nuclear power station to be built by French company EDF, part owned by the French government, using cheap Chinese steel that has catastrophically failed in other nuclear installations. Now EDF say the costs will be double or more and it will be very late even if it does come online.
Swindon was once our producer of rail locomotives and rolling stock. Not any more, it's Bombardier in Derby and due to their losses in the aviation market, that could see the end of the British railways manufacturing altogether even though Bombardier had EU grants to keep Derby going which they diverted to their loss-making aviation side in Canada.
39% of British invention patents have been passed to foreign companies, many of them in the EU
The Mini cars that Cameron stood in front of as an example of British engineering, are built by BMW mostly in Holland and Austria. His campaign bus was made in Germany even though we have Plaxton, Optare, Bluebird, Dennis etc., in the UK. The bicycle for the Greens was made in the far east, not by Raleigh UK but then they are probably going to move to the Netherlands too as they have said recently.
Anyone who thinks the EU is good for British industry or any other business simply hasn't paid attention to what has been systematically asset-stripped from the UK. Name me one major technology company still running in the UK, I used to contract out to many, then the work just dried up as they were sold off to companies from France, Germany, Holland, Belgium, etc., and now we don't even teach electronic technology for technicians any more, due to EU regulations.
I haven't detailed our non-existent fishing industry the EU paid to destroy, nor the farmers being paid NOT to produce food they could sell for more than they get paid to do nothing, don't even go there.
I haven't mentioned what it costs us to be asset-stripped like this, nor have I mentioned immigration, nor the risk to our security if control of our armed forces is passed to Brussels or Germany.
Find something that's gone the other way, I've looked and I just can't. If you think the EU is a good idea,
1/ You haven't read the party manifesto of The European Peoples' Party.
2/ You haven't had to deal with EU petty bureaucracy tearing your business down.
3/ You don't think it matters.
~TW~
One of the more depressing aspect of our present situation are that there are still people who don't recognise the magnitude of the mess that they have created . It will be a very long time until we are all as well off as we were pre-referendum - many of us will die first.
It's true, there are always opportunities for the young, my daughter and her partner are considering emigrating.
P.S.
. . . and it's a fact of life in today's world that large multinationals will site there manufacturing plants in location that suit them. Generally countries with stable government and economies, well educated workforce and good access to their market - and of course tax incentives may be an important factor.
Like it or not, that was true before Brexit and it is true now - the only thing that has changed is that the UK has become very much less attractive location!
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Hardly surprising, we will lose a lot of good companies if we are not very careful.
We have already been not careful.
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I realize its probably not a time for jokes....
....but here is a 'Yes Minister' episode that seems very apt. Ha Ha! :D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37iHSwA1SwE
Laugh guys...cheer up. Things will work out.
Sriram
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;D ;D ;D
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No, what that means is that the ruling elites will have to rethink their plans and accommodate the peoples' wishes. That'll mean that the kind of deal we are after will be given to all i.e. treaty change for the peoples' good.
You couldn't be further off the mark - the EU can not be seen to give the UK a millimeter. It is very much in the interest of the EU for Brexit to be seen to have made Britain poorer. That way no one else is likely to attempt to tread the same path.
There will be an offer 'on the table' very similar to Norway with little or no 'wriggle room' - take it or leave it. And all the time we think about it our economy flounders.
In a couple of years it will probably look quite attractive!
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Well we are going to have to turn it around somehow.
Show some old fashioned Dunkirk spirit, I guess, and pull together.
Now Rose, this isn't aimed at you personally, I really mean that, but...
Fuck the Dunkirk spirt. I don't want to know about any dusty, rose tinted bullshit idealism that would see us retreat into a hole of our own making. Fuck that shit. The deluded nationalism that seems to stir so many people, frankly, sickens me.
<sigh> honestly I'm still feeling very upset and am struggling to come to terms with what happened. BUT, I do recognise that this is democracy and that we will have to find a way to make the best of it. I think, honestly, I resent the way this has happened, but perhaps not entirely that it has happened. :-\
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You couldn't be further off the mark - the EU can not be seen to give the UK a millimeter. It is very much in the interest of the EU for Brexit to be seen to have made Britain poorer. That way no one else is likely to attempt to tread the same path.
There will be an offer 'on the table' very similar to Norway with little or no 'wriggle room' - take it or leave it. And all the time we think about it our economy flounders.
In a couple of years it will probably look quite attractive!
It concerns me, that the EU doesn't want to be seen to give the UK any sort of deal that might cause unrest in their own countries.
It doesn't bode well for us, for a positive start or for our country.
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All the people have recently signalled in the last two elections in five years are
Brexit and first past the post.
What are the people asking in terms of treaty change for the people's good?
I was talking about what is going on in the EU where many of the MEPs etc. are talking about the need to change the EU so it works for the people not the elites at the top.
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The constitutional historian,Peter Hennessy, made an interesting observation on the PM programme on BBC Radio 4 this evening.
He was talking about the demographic analysis of voting patterns and observed that, in age terms, younger voters wanted to remain in the EU and older voters wanted to leave. So, the people at the work face of the economy, the managers and wealth generators, and also those stepping into those positions, are having their own wishes and options taken away from them by people about to leave those positions and by people who are no longer active in the workforce.
What might happen, in the not-too-distant future,when these young people realise that they have been cheated?
It also strikes me that a Boris Johnson prime ministerial selection would almost certainly be the consequence of choices made by the elderly.
You could also argue that the older ones are wiser and that the younger lot will thank them in decades to come when they realise that they have been saved from the tyranny of another USSR style insanity.
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The Swedish trade minister has already stated that he is going to start persuading companies based in Britain to relocate to Sweden. I'm sure there are 26 other trade ministers who have all got plans to do the same thing. Tell me that doesn't frighten you.
This isn't independence, it's relegation from the Premier League and like a relegated football team, we are going to be stripped of our best players.
Except there is a movement in Sweden to call for a referendum, and the discontent about the stagnating EU is growing day by day so they would just be moving into another lower league only to find they have jumped ship from the premier one. What you are looking at is what was, how things stood before, not how it will be in the future. This is why Brussels wants to rap up the negotiations with the UK as soon as possible because to leave it hanging in the air just allows these discontents to rally up the rhetoric and not allow the EU to contain them in a stabilized EU bloc.
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You couldn't be further off the mark - the EU can not be seen to give the UK a millimeter. It is very much in the interest of the EU for Brexit to be seen to have made Britain poorer. That way no one else is likely to attempt to tread the same path.
There will be an offer 'on the table' very similar to Norway with little or no 'wriggle room' - take it or leave it. And all the time we think about it our economy flounders.
In a couple of years it will probably look quite attractive!
The tone coming out of Brussels is that they want the UK to still be a part of the framing of Europe and to work with them. Things have changed for the EU, not just the UK leaving, but the voices within the EU who are saying it is not working and needs to change. This is why they want a quick negotiation with the UK so that they can stabilize things and stop others from having referendums, and to claim that the UK is a special case. Your attitude is from the past and is void of content.
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The tone coming out of Brussels is that they want the UK to still be a part of the framing of Europe and to work with them. Things have changed for the EU, not just the UK leaving, but the voices within the EU who are saying it is not working and needs to change. This is why they want a quick negotiation with the UK so that they can stabilize things and stop others from having referendums, and to claim that the UK is a special case. Your attitude is from the past and is void of content.
Of course they want us to continue trading with them - but they won't be doing us any favours - if they did, as you have pointed out, groups in other countries would be planning the same thing.
Right now there is great uncertainty and that is fuelling all the damaging activity on the stock exchange and money markets. The longer this goes on the worse it will be for us. The EU are not suffering to anything like the same extent. They can afford to put an offer on the table and let us sweat it out.
My guess it that that offer won't be significantly different from Norway's.
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My guess it that that offer won't be significantly different from Norway's.
I suspet that it will be similar to but more stringent than Norway's.
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for a positive start or for our country.
What do you mean by "start for our country"? This country has existed since 1707.
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Except there is a movement in Sweden to call for a referendum,
But they're not out yet and the trade minister is perfectly free to make pitches to UK based companies. The same applies to all the other trade ministers.
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Where's BoJo?
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My guess it that that offer won't be significantly different from Norway's.
And let us remind ourselves that Norway has much the same deal as us (including membership fees and free movement of labour) but doesn't have any say in what the rules are and probably doesn't get anything like the same level of EU grants.
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Of course they want us to continue trading with them - but they won't be doing us any favours - if they did, as you have pointed out, groups in other countries would be planning the same thing.
Right now there is great uncertainty and that is fuelling all the damaging activity on the stock exchange and money markets. The longer this goes on the worse it will be for us. The EU are not suffering to anything like the same extent. They can afford to put an offer on the table and let us sweat it out.
My guess it that that offer won't be significantly different from Norway's.
You have been told endlessly that they need us more than we need them. We'll let them sweat it out, as they deal with the malcontents in their half of the pitch.
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Well done! The beginning of thr fall of the EU hopefully. At least the English didn't bottle it.
Whilst it could presage the collapse of the EU, I'm not convinced of the value of such an outcome. The EU is deeply flawed - of that there is no doubt - but I'm not sure that our leaving will actually help it improve.
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You have been told endlessly that they need us more than we need them. We'll let them sweat it out, as they deal with the malcontents in their half of the pitch.
They need us so much that they can probably find outlets for the 6% loss of exports far easier than we can find outlets for our 60%-odd loss of exports.
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They need us so much that they can probably find outlets for the 6% loss of exports far easier than we can find outlets for our 60%-odd loss of exports.
It seems German industry doesn't agree with you. Neither do I think the French producers either.
Le Pen is also calling for a French referendum and as more in France are not happy with the way the EU is going than is in the UK the call for change is just going to grow and grow.
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It seems German industry doesn't agree with you. Neither do I think the French producers either.
Le Pen is also calling for a French referendum and as more in France are not happy with the way the EU is going than is in the UK the call for change is just going to grow and grow.
I'm sure they'll back off until they see how the brexit plan works out........what is the plan by the way?
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You have been told endlessly that they need us more than we need them. We'll let them sweat it out, as they deal with the malcontents in their half of the pitch.
Yes I know we have been told that, and it is another of those BIG LIES.
We are the ones with the tumbling currency and stock market. Make no mistake - the Brexit vote has already resulted in grave damage to our economy - two years down the line this country would be in very deep shit!
All the EU need to do is wait.
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I said a long time ago that Nigel Farage's ambition was to make EngWales* the Argentina of Europe. He must be so proud of his achievement.
* Not really sure what the call the likely political entity of the future. "United Kingdom" will be inaccurate, Great Britain is a geographical term. Little Britain is a street in the (diminished)City of London.
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All the EU need to do is wait.
Except that they don't want to. They don't want the uncertainty that is Brexit to last too long, thus making their own economy/ies less stable.
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I said a long time ago that Nigel Farage's ambition was to make EngWales* the Argentina of Europe. He must be so proud of his achievement.
* Not really sure what the call the likely political entity of the future. "United Kingdom" will be inaccurate, Great Britain is a geographical term. Little Britain is a street in the (diminished)City of London.
What was it called before we annexed Ireland post English Civil War, and Scotland acceded back in 1707.
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What was it called before we annexed Ireland post English Civil War, and Scotland acceded back in 1707.
England. We took Wales by force too so they didn't have much say in the matter.
I vote for "Little England" to contrast with "Great Britain" which has now been utterly trashed by the Little Englanders of the Leave campaign.
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England. We took Wales by force too so they didn't have much say in the matter.
I vote for "Little England" to contrast with "Great Britain" which has now been utterly trashed by the Little Englanders of the Leave campaign.
How about the Rump Kingdom ;)
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The tone coming out of Brussels is that they want the UK to still be a part of the framing of Europe and to work with them. Things have changed for the EU, not just the UK leaving, but the voices within the EU who are saying it is not working and needs to change. This is why they want a quick negotiation with the UK so that they can stabilize things and stop others from having referendums, and to claim that the UK is a special case. Your attitude is from the past and is void of content.
If you are referring to the same interview that I heard on Radio 4 with one of the EU commissioners, what she said was that the EU commissioners had no wish punish Britain, but it was for the individual member governments to agree the terms that would be offered to britain. i.e. if any government is worried by it's own exit movement, it can stick-out for punitive terms for Britain.
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The new Democratic Labour Party
https://uk.news.yahoo.com/labour-mp-urges-commons-vote-block-brexit-180723258.html?nhp=1
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Isn't the concept of "labour" somewhat outdated?
Perhaps a left-wing party would be more successful if its name didn't reflect something of the distant past?
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Isn't the concept of "labour" somewhat outdated?
Perhaps a left-wing party would be more successful if its name didn't reflect something of the distant past?
You might be right.
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Except that they don't want to. They don't want the uncertainty that is Brexit to last too long, thus making their own economy/ies less stable.
What they are complaining of is our delay in starting the process, they won't be in any hurry to agree to our terms.
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Isn't the concept of "labour" somewhat outdated?
Perhaps a left-wing party would be more successful if its name didn't reflect something of the distant past?
Like 'New Labour' for example :D
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I'm sure they'll back off until they see how the brexit plan works out........what is the plan by the way?
The plan is no tariffs, which is what German industry wants.
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Yes I know we have been told that, and it is another of those BIG LIES.
We are the ones with the tumbling currency and stock market. Make no mistake - the Brexit vote has already resulted in grave damage to our economy - two years down the line this country would be in very deep shit!
All the EU need to do is wait.
Does it. So everything is ok in the Eurozone or Zombieland.
So Greece, Italy and Spain, and France are ok then?
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England. We took Wales by force too so they didn't have much say in the matter.
I vote for "Little England" to contrast with "Great Britain" which has now been utterly trashed by the Little Englanders of the Leave campaign.
Great England.
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If you are referring to the same interview that I heard on Radio 4 with one of the EU commissioners, what she said was that the EU commissioners had no wish punish Britain, but it was for the individual member governments to agree the terms that would be offered to britain. i.e. if any government is worried by it's own exit movement, it can stick-out for punitive terms for Britain.
But after two years we are out anyway so any punitive measures would just evaporate. Also, if a member causes trouble that upsets a big player in the EU, such as Germany, then they will find the punitive measures being put on them. As I have told you before people and countries/members can be leant on or bribed to tow the EU (Germany/France) party line.
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The new Democratic Labour Party
https://uk.news.yahoo.com/labour-mp-urges-commons-vote-block-brexit-180723258.html?nhp=1
This is the problem of holding back on activating article 50.
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Isn't the concept of "labour" somewhat outdated?
Perhaps a left-wing party would be more successful if its name didn't reflect something of the distant past?
"The Dosser party".
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The new socialists party
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Social Democratic Party?
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Christian Democratic Union of Germany?
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Great England.
You are delusional.
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The plan is no tariffs, which is what German industry wants.
......and how will that be achieved?
A Norwegian type deal with free movement of people.
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......and how will that be achieved?
A Norwegian type deal with free movement of people.
And a membership fee.
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The plan is no tariffs,
Don't we already have no tariffs?
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And a membership fee.
And I think they said on the Today program that per head of population, Norway was paying almost exactly the same as we are paying now.
So Brexit will have achieved . . . . . . . . . . . . .
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And I think they said on the Today program that per head of population, Norway was paying almost exactly the same as we are paying now.
So Brexit will have achieved . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Losing any influence but paying the same.
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Dear England,
Yes you are out, this is the football thread, right! well who needs Europe anyway, not us, us who, we still have Welsh Wales boyo.
Gonnagle.
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Losing any influence but paying the same.
But we will gain our freedom from the oppressive yoke of Brussels and it will once again be possible for us to proudly pump raw sewage onto bathing beaches with our heads held high singing Rule Britannia.
(You know it makes sense)
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......and how will that be achieved?
A Norwegian type deal with free movement of people.
No, a UK type deal, because they need us.
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Don't we already have no tariffs?
Not when we are trading with the rest of the world. The EU tariffs make their goods more expensive to import.
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Not when we are trading with the rest of the world. The EU tariffs make their goods more expensive to import.
Are you suggesting that only the EU has tariffs and that England will not be prepared to have them under any circumstances?
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Are you suggesting that only the EU has tariffs and that England will not be prepared to have them under any circumstances?
How did you get that idea from what I said. It may surprise you but I'm not in power so have no say on it.
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How did you get that idea from what I said. It may surprise you but I'm not in power so have no say on it.
I understand........................You haven't seen Boris by any chance?
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I understand........................You haven't seen Boris by any chance?
You assume he is in power. At the moment, effectively, no one is.....we are all adrift...
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Not when we are trading with the rest of the world. The EU tariffs make their goods more expensive to import.
You do understand that no tariffs at all means the end of the farming industry?
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You do understand that no tariffs at all means the end of the farming industry?
::)
Farmers are always moaning about money, like the weather.
It's been all doom and gloom for as long as I can remember. ( way back before we were in the EU)
Farmers seeing it as the end, not much change there then........
The NFU jumping up and down......
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No, a UK type deal, because they need us.
No one will be doing us any favours. Even Germany have restated that that access to the single market and freedom of movement are inseparable. A 'Norway deal' is probably the best we can hope for - and we will have to pay!
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::)
Farmers are always moaning about money, like the weather.
It's been all doom and gloom for as long as I can remember. ( way back before we were in the EU)
Farmers seeing it as the end, not much change there then........
The NFU jumping up and down......
It's likely to be a bit more serious than the usual issues that farmers moan about. Right now farmers have absolutely no idea of what is going to happen to subsidies or what kind of competition they are going to face from imports - and probably no one else has either. All of which means that anyone who makes any investment in the farming industry is taking a massive gamble.
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Farmers themselves are divided on Brexit, ignore Jeremy who is transforming in to Keith, you can tell because Keith is now sounding more cheerful ( did they swap membership? )
Some feel it was the EU that was putting them out of business and it was the problem.
It depends on what sort of farming they were doing.
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It's likely to be a bit more serious than the usual issues that farmers moan about. Right now farmers have absolutely no idea of what is going to happen to subsidies or what kind of competition they are going to face from imports - and probably no one else has either. All of which means that anyone who makes any investment in the farming industry is taking a massive gamble.
They have the NFU which has a loud voice and has usually got them a good deal. They'll moan anyway, because they always moan.
It's up to us to buy British even if it costs a bit more.
They moaned before we joined the EU, they moaned after we joined the EU.
Nothing's changed in that respect. It all used to be the EU s fault. :-\ regulations and stuff.
I'm sure the NFU will get them the same deal and subsidies they get from the EU.
But they will still moan.
My father was in farming and so were much of that side of the family, he detests the EU.
They are mixed.
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Farmers themselves are divided on Brexit, ignore Jeremy who is transforming in to Keith, you can tell because Keith is now sounding more cheerful ( did they swap membership? )
Some feel it was the EU that was putting them out of business and it was the problem.
It depends on what sort of farming they were doing.
I think in farming, the uncertainties are absolutely massive. If we go for a totally free trade option as some have suggested, that would imply zero subsidies which would transform the agricultural industry beyond recognition. Also we are likely to see an increase in foreign imports in all kinds of products, and as many sectors need large numbers of workers for picking crops, there will be the question of whether migrants will be available.
Until we have some kind certainty, it will be a very worrying time for most farmers.
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I think the NFU did come down on the side of remain in the end, but back in January they didn't take sides.
I'd say that shows farmers were divided in their views.
http://www.nfuonline.com/news/latest-news/uk-farmings-relationship-with-the-eu-nfu-report/
The NFU will fight to get our farmers the best deal possible under Brexit.
But whatever it is, they will still moan.
;)
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I think in farming, the uncertainties are absolutely massive. If we go for a totally free trade option as some have suggested, that would imply zero subsidies which would transform the agricultural industry beyond recognition. Also we are likely to see an increase in foreign imports in all kinds of products, and as many sectors need large numbers of workers for picking crops, there will be the question of whether migrants will be available.
Until we have some kind certainty, it will be a very worrying time for most farmers.
I'm sure migrants will be, because it's often seasonal. ( I don't see why our gov can't allow free movement for seasonal workers from Europe if they want to, after all the gov will be making up the rules at some point)
If not the long termed unemployed can earn their dole money.
Same with Duty free, they don't have to tax us on booze etc coming in or change what's in place.
They probably will, but they don't have to.
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I think in farming, the uncertainties are absolutely massive. If we go for a totally free trade option as some have suggested, that would imply zero subsidies which would transform the agricultural industry beyond recognition. Also we are likely to see an increase in foreign imports in all kinds of products, and as many sectors need large numbers of workers for picking crops, there will be the question of whether migrants will be available.
Until we have some kind certainty, it will be a very worrying time for most farmers.
Farming may have to be nationalised. With the resultant unemployed from Brexit directed into it.
That will conform to a Depfeffellite 'Merrie England'.
Talking of which.....anyone seen Boris.
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I think the NFU did come down on the side of remain in the end, but back in January they didn't take sides.
I'd say that shows farmers were divided in their views.
http://www.nfuonline.com/news/latest-news/uk-farmings-relationship-with-the-eu-nfu-report/
The NFU will fight to get our farmers the best deal possible under Brexit.
But whatever it is, they will still moan.
;)
I'm sure that the agricultural industry as a whole will survive and probably prosper in the long run, but that does not mean that individual farmers have nothing to worry about. If subsidies are ended or even significantly reduced, most small farmers would not be able to survive and we would end up with all our farms being run by large companies. Probably more efficient but is that what we want?
It will certainly not be good news for many farmers.
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I'm sure that the agricultural industry as a whole will survive and probably prosper in the long run, but that does not mean that individual farmers have nothing to worry about. If subsidies are ended or even significantly reduced, most small farmers would not be able to survive and we would end up with all our farms being run by large companies. Probably more efficient but is that what we want?
It will certainly not be good news for many farmers.
ATM it appears they are looking for the government to give them the same subsidies they were getting with the EU.
Since the last war I think farmers have a strong voice and are considered important to the structure of our country.
It wouldn't surprise me, if they get what they ask for.
But yes smaller farmers are vunerable ATM.
We all are.
But I think farmers have more chance of getting what they ask for, than other areas of business in the UK.
I'm sure it's really worrying for any small business who has relied on business with the eu.
The difference is farmers have a strong united voice in the NFU.
But yes I'm sure they are worried.
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ATM it appears they are looking for the government to give them the same subsidies they were getting with the EU.
Since the last war I think farmers have a strong voice and are considered important to the structure of our country.
It wouldn't surprise me if they get what they ask for.
But yes smaller farmers are vunerable ATM.
We all are.
But I think farmers have more chance of getting what they ask for, than other areas of business in the UK.
I'm sure it's really worrying for any small business who has relied on business with the eu.
The difference is farmers have a strong united voice in the NFU.
But yes I'm sure they are worried.
But the problem is, we don't know what government we will have or what course they will pursue with respect to trade and subsidies - which leaves a huge question mark over the future of agriculture.
P.S.
The 'Free Trade' lobby might well want to go for the 'New Zealand' model:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agriculture_in_New_Zealand
which would probably not please the NFU.
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At least farmers have got the NFU to protect their interests and advise them.
http://www.nfuonline.com/news/eu-referendum/eu-referendum-news/the-referendum-and-future-farming-policy/
A lot of businesses out there don't.
We are in Limbo ATM
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Farmers weekly did their own poll back in April and found 58% of farmers wanted Brexit .
The NFU recommended staying in.
I suspect, depending on the type of farming some farmers may be hit harder than others.
http://www.fwi.co.uk/news/exclusive-survey-reveals-farmers-back-eu-exit.htm
Sheep farmers may be hit harder than say arable farming.
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::)
Farmers are always moaning about money, like the weather.
It's been all doom and gloom for as long as I can remember. ( way back before we were in the EU)
Farmers seeing it as the end, not much change there then........
The NFU jumping up and down......
The British farming industry would not be viable without the protections and grants it gets from the EU. It's only just feasible now, that's why formers are always moaning about the money.
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At least farmers have got the NFU to protect their interests and advise them.
http://www.nfuonline.com/news/eu-referendum/eu-referendum-news/the-referendum-and-future-farming-policy/
A lot of businesses out there don't.
We are in Limbo ATM
And that is the problem, no one dare invest in anything until there is some certainty - the economy is stalled until the politicians sort themselves out.
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And that is the problem, no one dare invest in anything until there is some certainty - the economy is stalled until the politicians sort themselves out.
But does it have to be both parties?
What is going on with labour ATM?
Couldn't they have had their coup later on?
What a fiasco.
All this infighting doesn't add to their appeal, IMO.
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Farmers themselves are divided on Brexit, ignore Jeremy who is transforming in to Keith
, you can tell because Keith is now sounding more cheerful ( did they swap membership? )
Fuck you too, Julie.
Some feel it was the EU that was putting them out of business and it was the problem.
You don't even have a clue do you. Farmers receive massive subsidies from the EU. Farming in the single market is heavily protected from external imports because the Europe wide farming industry is not competitive. This is a fact and sll your exhortations to be cheerful will not change that fact.
It depends on what sort of farming they were doing.
Farming for crops, dairy and meat.
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Fuck you too, Julie.
You don't even have a clue do you. Farmers receive massive subsidies from the EU. Farming in the single market is heavily protected from external imports because the Europe wide farming industry is not competitive. This is a fact and sll your exhortations to be cheerful will not change that fact.
Farming for crops, dairy and meat.
Further down I've added links to show my points about farmers being divided.
Farmers weekly shows it best.
Country farmers can sometimes be fairly conservative around issues like immigration and EU regulations.
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But does it have to be both parties?
What is going on with labour ATM?
Couldn't they have had their coup later on?
What a fiasco.
All this infighting doesn't add to their appeal, IMO.
Labour became irrelevant when they had Corbyn dumped on them - their present upheavals are an attempt to get back to sanity.
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ATM it appears they are looking for the government to give them the same subsidies they were getting with the EU.
And they will get them because the alternative is no farming industry. However, this thread start because Jack Knave was suggesting we need free trade. If Jack Knave gets what he wants, it means no subsidies for farmers which, in turn, means no farmers.
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Labour became irrelevant when they had Corbyn dumped on them - their present upheavals are an attempt to get back to sanity.
I'm not sure it's going to help them get elected, because the present fiasco looks anything but sane.
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And they will get them because the alternative is no farming industry. However, this thread start because Jack Knave was suggesting we need free trade. If Jack Knave gets what he wants, it means no subsidies for farmers which, in turn, means no farmers.
Not according to this
https://www.fginsight.com/news/eustice-interview---farming-minister-seeks-to-reassure-industry-over-brexit-13173
I think it sounds like many farmers were brassed off with EU regulations and decided to take the risk.
I hope they can secure a good deal because I think our farming industry is a very important part of the structure of our country especially if we are being independent.
If the gov is making the rules it can bend them to accommodate the farmers.
Migrant workers could be offered seasonal passes to come and work just like they come and work now.
A relative has a business growing crops under glass for supermarkets ( strawberries, tomatoes, lettuce etc) and employs seasonal workers from Eastern Europe, that could continue if the gov allowed it to by issuing season passes.
The thing is we need to fit our laws, to fit what we need now.
If farmers need migrant workers and they want to come, a way must be found to accommodate this.
We need to be flexible, or find another way of getting the same result.
The problem is the number of areas that need looking at :o
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I'm not sure it's going to help them get elected, because the present fiasco looks anything but sane.
I think Labour are very much a side-show at the moment, they may or may not sort themselves out in time for a GE - but, like it or not, it's going to be the Tories who decide the EU issues.
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I think Labour are very much a side-show at the moment, they may or may not sort themselves out in time for a GE - but, like it or not, it's going to be the Tories who decide the EU issues.
I just hope someone like Nigel Farage doesn't get voted in, in the resultant vacuum.
All the disallusioned labour supporters are going to vote for something, liberal democrats might do well out of it.
I just hope it's not UKIP.
I think a lot of people just hope they fade away now we have left the EU, but I suspect not.
It seems to me Nigel Farage enjoys the power and winding up the other MEPs.
Having had a taste of power, I think he might be addicted.
:o
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And they will get them because the alternative is no farming industry. However, this thread start because Jack Knave was suggesting we need free trade. If Jack Knave gets what he wants, it means no subsidies for farmers which, in turn, means no farmers.
I think we will hear calls for a New Zealand type system from many people over coming months. If we are free from the Common Agricultural Policy all options are up for grabs.
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It looks like Boris is going for soft Brexit, although no doubt that some of the hard-liners want hard Brexit. As others have said, this means farmers have to sink or swim, depending on largesse from the government. Ditto other groups.
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It looks like Boris is going for soft Brexit, although no doubt that some of the hard-liners want hard Brexit. As others have said, this means farmers have to sink or swim, depending on largesse from the government. Ditto other groups.
Boris will opt for whatever option looks like it will get in into Downing Street
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I don't think the EU is going to go for a soft Brexit.
I don't know if we keep delaying and they think we are harming the rest of Europe they might impose sanctions.
Is that a possibility?
They can't force us to put in article 50, but they might get antsy if they see it as harmful to the EU.
Like someone said we are in unchartered waters.
I could just see someone bringing in a clause ( a bit like when a tender goes over) and punishing us for the delay ( having indicated exit it with the Brexit vote and previous conversations).
I'm unsure what they could do if we tried to delay by years. ( which Boris indicated it could be several years and some others that we could wait at least a year)
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Not according to this
https://www.fginsight.com/news/eustice-interview---farming-minister-seeks-to-reassure-industry-over-brexit-13173
That link isn't working for me but given nobody has any clue what is going to happen in the future how much do you think anybody's reassurances are worth at the moment?
I think it sounds like many farmers were brassed off with EU regulations and decided to take the risk.
Regulations like "don't put horse meat in beef lasagne"?
I hope they can secure a good deal because I think our farming industry is a very important part of the structure of our country especially if we are being independent.
Which is why we have to replace the CAP with something very similar.
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I think we will hear calls for a New Zealand type system from many people over coming months. If we are free from the Common Agricultural Policy all options are up for grabs.
A New Zealand type deal would mean the end for most farmers. I'm not saying it is the wrong ting to do, but let us be completely clear about the consequences.
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I don't think the EU is going to go for a soft Brexit.
I think they would let us have something broadly similar to the Norway deal.
I don't know if we keep delaying and they think we are harming the rest of Europe they might impose sanctions.
Is that a possibility?
No. Until we put in article 50 and for two years afterwards, we will still be full members of the EU. They can't legally impose sanctions against one of their own members.
I'm unsure what they could do if we tried to delay by years. ( which Boris indicated it could be several years and some others that we could wait at least a year)
They would have to force the issue somehow. The longer the current situation goes on for, the more damage is being done to everybody.
The only reason why anybody would not trigger article 50 right now is because they think they can stop it from happening at all. If Boris has said he will wait a year or two, it's because he doesn't want to leave. There is no other possible explanation.
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A New Zealand type deal would mean the end for most farmers. I'm not saying it is the wrong ting to do, but let us be completely clear about the consequences.
That was the point I was making earlier, but I think it might be a very good option for big companies.
I can see pros and cons both ways but once we abandon the CAP it must be on the agenda.
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Perhaps he is hoping we can stay in, with some new rules on freedom of movement of people.
That seems to not allowed at all.
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Perhaps he is hoping we can stay in, with some new rules on freedom of movement of people.
That seems to not allowed at all.
I think all the rhetoric about restrictions on immigrants is just that. The referendum was won mostly on the immigration issue but, since, immigration is good for public finances and good for people who own companies that employ people, no Conservative government really has the will to reduce it.
Boris is just paying lip service because immigration was the hot issue and his only chance of political survival is to keep the UK in the EU and get some concession that makes it look like he has fixed the immigration issue even if he hasn't (not that there is an immigration issue in reality).
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I think all the rhetoric about restrictions on immigrants is just that. The referendum was won mostly on the immigration issue but, since, immigration is good for public finances and good for people who own companies that employ people, no Conservative government really has the will to reduce it.
Boris is just paying lip service because immigration was the hot issue and his only chance of political survival is to keep the UK in the EU and get some concession that makes it look like he has fixed the immigration issue even if he hasn't (not that there is an immigration issue in reality).
I agree, and much to the dismay of the people that voted leave in the hope that it would reduce immigration, are going to be very disappointed when they realize that will no happen.
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Sounds like a lot of finagling is in order. We are in control of immigration (except those that are absolutely necessary), we're not paying any money to EU any more, (well, only covertly), and we are not subject to EU rules (except those in the list of addenda). Politics, schmolitics.
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You do understand that no tariffs at all means the end of the farming industry?
We will do what we need to do to safeguard our industries as far as possible.
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No one will be doing us any favours. Even Germany have restated that that access to the single market and freedom of movement are inseparable. A 'Norway deal' is probably the best we can hope for - and we will have to pay!
Oh come on, that's just their first move. Everyone will be talking tough at the start.
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And they will get them because the alternative is no farming industry. However, this thread start because Jack Knave was suggesting we need free trade. If Jack Knave gets what he wants, it means no subsidies for farmers which, in turn, means no farmers.
I don't think you know what the term free trade deal means.
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We will do what we need to do to safeguard our industries as far as possible.
In a free trade economy, "as far as possible" means not at all. That's the whole point, our farms will have to compete on level terms with farms from all over the World.
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I don't think you know what the term free trade deal means.
You can't agree free trade with somebody else whilst subsidising your own industry. That amounts to the same thing as applying tariffs. Sorry, but you lose.
In fact we all lose.
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Boris will opt for whatever option looks like it will get in into Downing Street
Lying!!!
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Lying!!!
You don't appear to know what lying means.
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You don't appear to know what lying means.
Or what a free trade deal is.
Or how economics works.
Or how politics works.
In fact, I'm gravely concerned that he was allowed to vote in the referendum.
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I think all the rhetoric about restrictions on immigrants is just that. The referendum was won mostly on the immigration issue but, since, immigration is good for public finances and good for people who own companies that employ people, no Conservative government really has the will to reduce it.
Boris is just paying lip service because immigration was the hot issue and his only chance of political survival is to keep the UK in the EU and get some concession that makes it look like he has fixed the immigration issue even if he hasn't (not that there is an immigration issue in reality).
If that happens the war will gone on and with even more vehemently.
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In a free trade economy, "as far as possible" means not at all. That's the whole point, our farms will have to compete on level terms with farms from all over the World.
That's not what a ftd means.
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You can't agree free trade with somebody else whilst subsidising your own industry. That amounts to the same thing as applying tariffs. Sorry, but you lose.
In fact we all lose.
A ftd does not have to include all things. Just as long as the parties agree to what is on the table, that's it.
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That's not what a ftd means.
Sorry, you don't know what you are taking about. How can it be a free trade deal if one side is loading the dice?
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You don't appear to know what lying means.
The fact that you have to qualify your statement with the word 'appear' means you aren't too sure about what you are saying.
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The fact that you have to qualify your statement with the word 'appear' means you aren't too sure about what you are saying.
That would be because there are two possibilities, at least, of what might be the case, and I don't have sufficient information to judge which is correct.
You might either be being ignorant, or lying yourself, or some unknown option.