Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: bluehillside Retd. on June 24, 2016, 08:48:55 AM
-
Dear Nigel,
Just fuck the right off will you.
Yours etc,
Blue
-
Whilst I wouldn't use the 'f' word, I share those sentiments. Farage is a ghastly racist, who might be laughing over the other side of his ugly mug if it all goes pear shaped and his sycophants turn on him.
-
Concise and to the point.
-
Dear Blue,
I would like to second that emotion, and add, get it right up you Mr Farage.
Gonnagle.
-
Hi Trent,
Concise and to the point.
It's how I feel. I see failure everywhere here: an EU that failed to engage and to clean up its act; a prime minister who took a punt for short term political expediency because he was afraid that UKIP would take tory votes at the last election; an ex London mayor buffoon angling for the top job, fuelled by an ancient posh boy enmity from his Bullingdon club days; a Labour leader disengaged and hidebound by his Dave Spartism; an electorate too stupid and gulled by the right wing press to realise that it was a turkey voting for Christmas. It's a perfect storm.
You know the saddest stat for me? It's not the collapsing pound or the crashing stock market, it's that 82% of 18-25 year-olds - the very people this catastrophe will hurt the most - voted remain. It's a fucking tragedy.
-
Hi Trent,
It's how I feel. I see failure everywhere here: an EU that failed to engage and to clean up its act; a prime minister who took a punt for short term political expediency because he was afraid that UKIP would take tory votes at the last election; an ex London mayor buffoon angling for the top job, fuelled by an ancient posh boy enmity from his Bullingdon club days; a Labour leader disengaged and hidebound by his Dave Spartism; an electorate too stupid and gulled by the right wing press to realise that it was a turkey voting for Christmas. It's a perfect storm.
You know the saddest stat for me? It's not the collapsing pound or the crashing stock market, it's that 82% of 18-25 year-olds - the very people this catastrophe will hurt the most - voted remain. It's a fucking tragedy.
Such passion, yet i don't recall you contributing anything to the debate?
-
jakswan,
Such passion, yet i don't recall you contributing anything to the debate?
How would you know what I did or didn't contribute to the debate?
-
Hi Trent,
It's how I feel. I see failure everywhere here: an EU that failed to engage and to clean up its act; a prime minister who took a punt for short term political expediency because he was afraid that UKIP would take tory votes at the last election; an ex London mayor buffoon angling for the top job, fuelled by an ancient posh boy enmity from his Bullingdon club days; a Labour leader disengaged and hidebound by his Dave Spartism; an electorate too stupid and gulled by the right wing press to realise that it was a turkey voting for Christmas. It's a perfect storm.
You know the saddest stat for me? It's not the collapsing pound or the crashing stock market, it's that 82% of 18-25 year-olds - the very people this catastrophe will hurt the most - voted remain. It's a fucking tragedy.
No argument from me. In fact when the result became inevitable - I went to bed muttering about a large bird of the genus meliagris and a festival celebrated at a completely arbitrary time of the year.
-
jakswan,
How would you know what I did or didn't contribute to the debate?
There is a 96 page thread on this forum. I was referring to this forum.
-
Jak,
There is a 96 page thread on this forum. I was referring to this forum.
Oh right - I didn't notice it, but I did in a modest way contribute in the real world.
-
Jak,
Oh right - I didn't notice it, but I did in a modest way contribute in the real world.
You are much respected voice in this community!
-
Dear Blue,
I think old Jakswan is a bit stunned, the British people have voted to leave!! I think Jakswan is now thinking, I voted leave but I didn't real mean for us to leave, cut him a little slack as he tries to digest the consequences.
Just to add, your OP is spot on ;)
Gonnagle.
-
There is now talk of a deep recession! :(
-
Jak,
You are much respected voice in this community!
Yeah right!
Putin, Trump, Johnson - it's all so depressing. Much as I hated the savage attacks on the most vulnerable presided over by Cameron, who will replace him who isn't an even worse swivel-eyed ideologue? Johnson? Grayling? Gove? God help us all.
-
Floo,
There is now talk of a deep recession! :(
Reminds me of the old Russian joke: what stage comes between socialism and communism?
Alcoholism!
I need a drink...
-
Dear Blue,
I think old Jakswan is a bit stunned, the British people have voted to leave!! I think Jakswan is now thinking, I voted leave but I didn't real mean for us to leave, cut him a little slack as he tries to digest the consequences.
Just to add, your OP is spot on ;)
No, very happy with result but leave should be magnanimous in victory I feel. With regard to the debate here we had LA and Davey really advocating for remain who were Cameron like with their heavy negative spin.
I think a more positive balanced argument could have been put forward.
I'm still predicting we won't leave, at some point today you will see a senior Tory say something like "if we leave" and then backtrack. Then tomorrow the same phrase will pop up then they will backtrack, and it will keep popping up until that is actually on the table.
Cameron said Article 50 would invoked quickly following a Brexit vote, he's already flipped on that one, it will now be October at the earliest.
I want to stay in a reformed EU, if they don't offer reforms now then we should leave.
-
Dear Blue,
Not often I agree with Jakswan.
You are much respected voice in this community!
This is a fact ;)
Gonnagle.
-
Jak,
Yeah right!
Putin, Trump, Johnson - it's all so depressing. Much as I hated the savage attacks on the most vulnerable presided over by Cameron, who will replace him who isn't an even worse swivel-eyed ideologue? Johnson? Grayling? Gove? God help us all.
Whilst I'm not a Tory, I still think the country will regret getting rid of LibDem, the Tories won the election. If you are of the left then you need to come up with better politicians and arguments, waving your arms in the air won't change a thing.
I did not agree with LibDems on this issue but I'm going to try to help getting a centre liberal based voice heard again in British politics.
You don't list Corbyn, he's simply inept, and much of the reason the Torys are such a mess is because Labour doesn't scare them at all.
-
Dear Jakswan,
Bloody hell, what you are asking for is riots on the streets, we are out, that's it.
I want to stay in a reformed EU, if they don't offer reforms now then we should leave.
Then your leave vote was wrong, we are out, that's it, see you later Europe. >:( >:(
Gonnagle.
-
Jak,
No, very happy with result but leave should be magnanimous in victory I feel. With regard to the debate here we had LA and Davey really advocating for remain who were Cameron like with their heavy negative spin.
I think a more positive balanced argument could have been put forward.
I'm still predicting we won't leave, at some point today you will see a senior Tory say something like "if we leave" and then backtrack. Then tomorrow the same phrase will pop up then they will backtrack, and it will keep popping up until that is actually on the table.
Cameron said Article 50 would invoked quickly following a Brexit vote, he's already flipped on that one, it will now be October at the earliest.
I want to stay in a reformed EU, if they don't offer reforms now then we should leave.
I've heard something like this before - maybe the EU will now offer such concessions that we won't have to go ahead with leaving etc. I just can't see it though. Having held a referendum and had the result, how one earth would Cameron (or whoever) then say, "thanks a lot folks, but we're going to ignore that and remain instead"?
-
I've heard something like this before - maybe the EU will now offer such concessions that we won't have to go ahead with leaving etc. I just can't see it though. Having held a referendum and had the result, how one earth would Cameron (or whoever) then say, "thanks a lot folks, but we're going to ignore that and remain instead"?
The EU have some form on this, it will require another referendum.
-
Gonners,
This is a fact ;)
Aw stop it now. Besides, I can think of at least one poster who doesn't agree! Thanks for the kind comments too by the way.
-
Then your leave vote was wrong, we are out, that's it, see you later Europe. >:( >:(
Listen, I want to stay in a reformed EU, when Cameron threatened a referendum it didn't reform, we are now threatening to leave, if it doesn't reform then I think we should leave.
-
Jak,
You don't list Corbyn, he's simply inept, and much of the reason the Torys are such a mess is because Labour doesn't scare them at all.
See Reply 4. Quite so.
-
Jak,
The EU have some form on this, it will require another referendum.
I'm clutching at straws here, but here's a scenario: alarmed by the rise of nationalism across Europe and the risk of a domino effect, the EU proposes major reforms and concessions as a last gasp effort to bring us back; Cameron takes it to the country; the electorate having seen markets tanking etc and the cluelessness of Johnson, Grayling et al re what happens next this time vote next time to remain.
It's an awful thin straw though...
-
Dear Nigel,
Just fuck the right off will you.
Yours etc,
Blue
Where do I sign?
Meanwhile the Bank of England is prepared to spend £250billion propping up the banks.
http://gu.com/p/4mk5a
One way of looking at that is that could have paid for the UK's membership of the EU for the next 30years.
-
There is now talk of a deep recession! :(
Oh don't, I'm depressed enough already on this otherwise nice day, wondering whether I should go back to bed.
I echo the sentiments of the opening post. Mr Farage, MEP, will now be out of a job though so that's a good thing (though he'll find something else to do).
-
Jak,
I'm clutching at straws here, but here's a scenario: alarmed by the rise of nationalism across Europe and the risk of a domino effect, the EU proposes major reforms and concessions as a last gasp effort to bring us back; Cameron takes it to the country; the electorate having seen markets tanking etc and the cluelessness of Johnson, Grayling et al re what happens next this time vote next time to remain.
It's an awful thin straw though...
It would be nice, but I think we are toast!
We should not let idiots vote, there should be an exam you have to pass for some votes.
-
Hi BR,
It would be nice, but I think we are toast!
We should not let idiots vote, there should be an exam you have to pass for some votes.
It makes you wonder sometimes doesn't it. A few politicians telling voters to blame immigrants for their lot in life, supported by a right wing press that somehow fails to mention not only that those very immigrants are often the doctors, accountants, entrepreneurs etc on whom we all rely (and that fails too to explain that, if you have a GCSE in woodwork then that Ukrainian doctor probably isn't taking "your" job at all in any case) and moreover that fails to tell you that immigrants put about £20 billion a year into the economy, so the reason you can't get a doctor's appointment or a school place is not that they're here but rather that that this scumbag government doesn't use the taxes they pay to build the hospitals and schools they pay for and we need, and Robert's yer aunty's husband.
Utterly gutting.
-
I get the impression that a lot of people voted to leave the EU because were gullible enough to fall for the racist anti-immigration spiel. We need the help of incomers to keep our country afloat, especially in the NHS, as we don't have enough home grown doctors and nurses to go around.
Now we are leaving the EU do people really think that France is going to be too bothered about trying to prevent migrants trying to make it to the UK? The less they have in the hell-hole Calais has turned into, the better!
-
I get the impression that a lot of people voted to leave the EU because were gullible enough to fall for the racist anti-immigration spiel. We need the help of incomers to keep our country afloat, especially in the NHS, as we don't have enough home grown doctors and nurses to go around.
Now we are leaving the EU do people really think that France is going to be too bothered about trying to prevent migrants trying to make it to the UK? The less they have in the hell-hole Calais has turned into, the better!
Also this 350 million pounds a week they have to spend.
Let's see what happens to that.
I see Farage is backtracking on this already!
-
No, very happy with result but leave should be magnanimous in victory I feel. With regard to the debate here we had LA and Davey really advocating for remain who were Cameron like with their heavy negative spin.
I think a more positive balanced argument could have been put forward.
I'm still predicting we won't leave, at some point today you will see a senior Tory say something like "if we leave" and then backtrack. Then tomorrow the same phrase will pop up then they will backtrack, and it will keep popping up until that is actually on the table.
Cameron said Article 50 would invoked quickly following a Brexit vote, he's already flipped on that one, it will now be October at the earliest.
I want to stay in a reformed EU, if they don't offer reforms now then we should leave.
If we don't leave, then we can no longer say we are living in a democracy, plus the rest of the EU might decide they don't want us. You can't offer the country a democratic choice then disregard it.
Us crashing and burning is more likely to put off demands for a vote in their own countries, re the E U. For us to collapse might be seen as a lesson in itself.
Scotland leaving and becoming independant is a further nail in the coffin.
What twerp put a clause in to say Scotland could have another vote for independance should the vote be to leave?
In my eyes they are fools and traitors! ( whichever numbskull agreed to that one)
I'm not impressed with politicians.
We would be better off employing Clyde the orangutan to run the flipping country.
What a mess!
-
Scotland leaving and becoming independant it a further nail in the coffin.
What twerp put a clause in to say Scotland could have another vote for independance should the vote be to leave?
In my eyes they are fools and traitors! ( whichever numbskull agreed to that one)
I think some of us here in Scotland think otherwise!
-
I think some of us here in Scotland think otherwise!
Yes I know.
But it's our stupid politicians I'm annoyed at!
>:(
As JR Rowling wrote on Twitter
"Scotland will seek independence now. Cameron's legacy will be breaking up two unions. Neither needed to happen. "
::)
-
Yes I know.
But it's our stupid politicians I'm annoyed at!
>:(
Why isn't it the voters fault?
-
Why isn't it the voters fault?
Because voters just did what they were asked to do, vote.
Politicians run the country and shouldn't be putting the choices in the hands of the public when said public know bugger all about it, and vote with their gut reaction.
It seems to me, there were an awful lot of people who admitted they didn't really know who was telling the truth about being in or out the e u or not.
I expect the people in charge to take decisions in our interest when large numbers of people don't really know what is in our best interests.
Most of us don't have the time or patience to get into the detail of various policies.
That's what experts are supposed to do........( in this case government)
Most of the young people I know voted to remain, a few are unhappy their futures are going to be affected by the prejudices of their elders.
The government should have recognised the impact the views of older people were going to have on the younger generation, who have been brought up with a more modern idea of Europe.
Instead of delegating the responsibility, they should have listened to young people more and protected their futures.
They didn't.
Now you have generation of young people who feel the old fuddidudees have allowed their own prejudices and " we want to return to the good old days" blight their forward looking futures.
Many young people have a different outlook, because they are not constantly comparing it to the " good old days"
I was told by one such young person this morning that people over 50 shouldn't have been allowed to vote.
I didn't agree with him, but I saw where he was coming from.
So much of the leave campaign was about Johnnie foreigner and the polish supermarket.
The young generation often like Johnnie foreigner and the polish supermarket.
Older people seem to moan about different things to the young who are more outgoing and not so shocked about foreign languages spoken in their local supermarket.
Sorry about the rant, just feeling brassed off.
Listened to this all day today :-[
I don't blame the Scots for wanting to be independant, I'm starting to feel like joining London in declaring independance ;)
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/wouldnt-you-prefer-to-be-president-sadiq-thousands-back-campaign-for-sadiq-khan-to-declare-londons-a3280141.html
:)
First though, I'd chuck out the flippin politicians.
-
Voters shouldn't have choices, mmm
-
Dear Blue,
Not often I agree with Jakswan.
This is a fact ;)
Gonnagle.
Good to see you giving it to Turdpolishers par excellence. Blue.
-
What twerp put a clause in to say Scotland could have another vote for independance should the vote be to leave?
Surely self-determination is a foundation of any democracy.
In my eyes they are fools and traitors! ( whichever numbskull agreed to that one)
Don't be daft if someone feels Scottish rather than British then that is up to them.
The Scottish parliament will be more accountable when it can't use Westminster as an excuse, e.g. the Krankie is still banging on about austerity when she can increase taxes to get rid of austerity.
-
Surely self-determination is a foundation of any democracy.
Don't be daft if someone feels Scottish rather than British then that is up to them.
The Scottish parliament will be more accountable when it can't use Westminster as an excuse, e.g. the Krankie is still banging on about austerity when she can increase taxes to get rid of austerity.
jejune personal attack with whiff of sexism trying to be witty.
-
Surely self-determination is a foundation of any democracy.
Don't be daft if someone feels Scottish rather than British then that is up to them.
The Scottish parliament will be more accountable when it can't use Westminster as an excuse, e.g. the Krankie is still banging on about austerity when she can increase taxes to get rid of austerity.
Not really.
Most countries are formed by war and force, not democracy.
No one is offering Cornwall self determination no matter how much they want to be recognised as a country and not a county.
Same if they feel Cornish rather than English? ( or British)
Countries are not formed by democracy, they are formed by wars and invasion.
The queen wasn't elected by democracy either, she got there by the same process.
If you offer democracy ( in the form of independance) to Scotland, Wales and Ireland what about Cornwall?
Are they not entitled to democracy as well? Then you have counties, originally under the rule of smaller kingships and rulers.
Who is to say Essex or Somerset shouldn't also have the right to self determination?
The whole of civilisation on our little island was created by which thug in which area thumped the hardest and who went creeping up to who, and got made a lord or a squire.
Scotland fought once to retain its own band of rulers and they lost out, just like all the other areas of Britain.
The problem with self determination is that it all breaks up, back into its little bits.
It was force that joined it together, like the old USSR.
We are a very small country and we stand in danger of splitting into many little bits if we really did the self determination and democracy bit.
Sometimes we are more stable together.
Cornwall has its own flag / language and sees itself as a country.
How small do you want to go?
The Shetland Islands wanted independance from Scotland, which was roundly ignored. ( by the Scottish I hasten to add)
If you really wanted self determination and democracy, Scotland too gets smaller. Not even all of Scotland wants to be part of a United Scotland.
;)
Sometimes a stable peace is one imposed by force.
Not posh and democratic or self determining, but politically incorrect nowadays.
However it works, pretty much.
Civilisation forming was more about force than democracy.
Democracy is a luxury until it breaks us up to much.
You need a balance.
The difficulty comes when you tell Cornwall or Shetland they can't have the same right of determination because you don't recognise them.
-
And your answer is , Rose?
-
And your answer is , Rose?
To stick together, while enjoying and respecting our different cultures/traditions.
By recognising how small we all are without each other, on the world stage.
:)
-
And does Essex have its own legal system, Rose? If not please explain why your comparison is valid?
-
To stick together, while enjoying and respecting our different cultures/traditions.
By recognising how small we all are without each other, on the world stage.
:)
So no countries should exist? Or just the ones think should exist?
-
And does Essex have its own legal system, Rose? If not please explain why your comparison is valid?
Do you think a countries claim to be a seperate country relies on it having its own legal system?
So say Cornwall and Shetland don't, so can't qualify?
The only reason I can see that Scotland had its own laws was because it held sufficient clout in history to hold onto it.
Poor old Cornwall and Essex didn't because their original chieftains lacked the clout were smaller, and either fell in line or got replaced.
Essex had no hope, it was too close to London for a start, they would have formed part of the ruling groups very early on.
I'm a bit cynical, the only reason I think Scotland has different rules is because they fought for them and were big enough to get away with it.
Scotland fought for its right to be recognised, and not swamped by everyone else.
Smaller groups couldn't.
-
Do you think a countries claim to be a seperate country relies on it having its own legal system?
So say Cornwall and Shetland don't, so can't qualify?
The only reason I can see that Scotland had its own laws was because it held sufficient clout in history to hold onto it.
Poor old Cornwall and Essex didn't because their original chieftains lacked the clout were smaller, and either fell in line or got replaced.
Essex had no hope, it was too close to London for a start, they would have formed part of the ruling groups very early on.
I'm a bit cynical, the only reason I think Scotland has different rules is because they fought for them and were big enough to get away with it.
Scotland fought for its right to be recognised, and not swamped by everyone else.
Smaller groups couldn't.
So did Essex have its own legal system? What is your reasoning for difference?
-
So no countries should exist? Or just the ones think should exist?
It's a difficult one Nearly Sane.
Lots of people across the world fight to retain their identity. Ukraine for example.
France, Spain they all have their little separatist bits.
I once went to Spain and got told off for trying to speak Spanish, because the waiter didn't see himself as Spanish but Catalonian ::)
I think we all recognise some, but not others. Recognise Scotland but not Shetland. Recognise Spain but not see Catalonia as separate from Spain.
Or the Kurds fighting for their own bit, or Sikhs for theirs.
Then there is Israel and Palestine and who is what.
In the USA there are all the states, not all happily united in all cases.
Depends who you listen too.
They have their own laws too, state to state.
The world wants to split into little bits and sometimes it just leads to instability and unhappiness.
I just want to live in a stable country that doesn't split into little separatist bits.
-
It's a difficult one Nearly Sane.
Lots of people across the world fight to retain their identity. Ukraine for example.
France, Spain they all have their little separatist bits.
I once went to Spain and got told off for trying to speak Spanish, because the waiter didn't see himself as Spanish but Catalonian ::)
I think we all recognise some, but not others. Recognise Scotland but not Shetland. Recognise Spain but not see Catalonia as separate from Spain.
Or the Kurds fighting for their own bit, or Sikhs for theirs.
Then there is Israel and Palestine and who is what.
In the USA there are all the states, not all happily united in all cases.
Depends who you listen too.
They have their own laws too, state to state.
The world wants to split into little bits and sometimes it just leads to instability and unhappiness.
I just want to live in a stable country that doesn't split into little separatist bits.
so, sorry, what is your idea here? It is right if you think it is right?
-
So did Essex have its own legal system? What is your reasoning for difference?
Once, it would have done.
Like many places in the uk
http://www.geog.cam.ac.uk/research/projects/privatelaw/
-
so, sorry, what is your idea here? It is right if you think it is right?
The point is I think , is that I find it difficult to decide who is right and who isn't. I tend towards the status quo unless I see reason to change it.
With Scotland leaving the UK I'm not keen because I think it makes us all to small and divided.
If that doesn't matter, and Scotland still claim the right because they want to, then I think Shetland should be allowed the same consideration along with the other countries ( Wales and Northan Ireland) and Cornwall and anyone else who can make a case for it.
Scotland shouldn't be an exception. One should be fair in these things.
Which won't work, because if you split the UK up that much, it won't function at all.
-
Dear Nigel,
I feel that I must congratulate you on pulling-off one of the most spectacular confidence tricks in living memory. Not only have you managed to convince normally sensible people that they being threatened by evil bureaucrats and hoards of migrants, but you managed to get your ideas adopted by a significant section of the Tory party. And hence, a party normally highly regarded for economic responsibility, decided on the risky strategy that finally resulted in driving the country to economic suicide.
But I'm sure that you could not have pulled of this feat alone. The Great Boris saw a bandwagon that he though might take him to downing street and jumped on. And of course there were many others. Some like Boris saw opportunities for personal gain while others simply had grudges and delusions.
Jolly well done!
Your obedient servant
SATAN :o
-
The the law was a weird thing years ago
Came across this:
A real ordeal
Justice for the Anglo-Saxons and even after the Norman invasion of 1066 was a combination of local and royal government. Local courts were presided over by a lord or one of his stewards. The King’s court – the Curia Regis – was, initially at least, presided over by the King himself.
Today, going on trial in an English and Welsh court is not exactly a comfortable experience. But it’s far better than trial by ordeal, used until almost the end of the 12th century to determine guilt or innocence in criminal cases.
Under this system, the accused would be forced to pick up a red hot bar of iron, pluck a stone out of a cauldron of boiling water, or something equally painful and dangerous.
If their hand had begun to heal after three days they were considered to have God on their side, thus proving their innocence. The number of ‘not guilty’ verdicts recorded by this system is not known.
Another, extremely popular ‘ordeal’ involved water; the accused would be tied up and thrown into a lake or other body of water. If innocent, he or she would sink.
There were two problems with this method, which was often used to try suspected witches: the accused was tied right thumb to left toe, left thumb to right toe, which made it almost impossible to sink; and opinion is divided as to whether those who did sink were fished out afterwards.
William II (1087-1100) eventually banned trial by ordeal – reportedly because 50 men accused of killing his deer had passed the test – and it was condemned by the Church in 1216.
https://www.judiciary.gov.uk/about-the-judiciary/history-of-the-judiciary/
I wonder if Nigel Farage would pass the test ;)
-
The point is I think , is that I find it difficult to decide who is right and who isn't. I tend towards the status quo unless I see reason to change it.
With Scotland leaving the UK I'm not keen because I think it makes us all to small and divided.
If that doesn't matter, and Scotland still claim the right because they want to, then I think Shetland should be allowed the same consideration along with the other countries ( Wales and Northan Ireland) and Cornwall and anyone else who can make a case for it.
Scotland shouldn't be an exception. One should be fair in these things.
Which won't work, because if you split the UK up that much, it won't function at all.
is Switzerland too small? Should it not exist because you think size is important!
-
I wonder if Nigal Farage saw this one coming?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36626553
-
is Switzerland too small? Should it not exist because you think size is important!
I don't, but Scotland doesn't seem prepared to extend the same democracy and self determination to the Shetland isles.
Why is that then?
Here is a map of Europe, showing the separatist groups, should they all be separate countries?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_separatist_movements_in_Europe
Who should determine who is and who isn't entitled to independance? Or even a voice and a vote to say so?
If it was all down to the people living there and democracy, they would all be independant.
Why should Scotland be an exception?
-
I don't, but Scotland doesn't seem prepared to extend the same democracy and self determination to the Shetland isles.
Why is that then?
Here is a map of Europe, showing the separatist groups, should they all be separate countries?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_separatist_movements_in_Europe
Who should determine who is and who isn't entitled to independance?
If it was all down to the people living there, they would all be independant.
Why should Scotland be an exception?
To what? What is your position about what a country should be, be that Scotland or any other country might be an 'exception"?
-
is Switzerland too small? Should it not exist because you think size is important!
Even Switzerland isn't so small it hasn't got its separatists
http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/separatist-swiss-canton-celebrates-30-years/6939862
:o
Did I read that right? :o
Just when you think a country is a country, it starts splitting up, into bits ;)
-
To what? What is your position about what a country should be, be that Scotland or any other country might be an 'exception"?
A country just appears to be a graphical area of land where some of the people feel united by a loose set of cultural identities and with areas that don't feel that, melded together by some sort of power structure and force which is challenged by other littler bits that challenge the authority which is the status quo.
Hence it can be eternally split down into tiddlier and tiddlier bits.
Who determines if smaller areas can be counted as separate countries goes on how much clout the separatist bits have and if the recognised authority at the time can put them down or is forced to acknowledge them.
No one claim seems more valid than another.
A country should be able to function for the benefit of those living there.
We live on an island ( excepting Ireland) our boundaries are more obvious.
-
A country just appears to be a graphical area of land where some of the people feel united by a loose set of cultural identities and with areas that don't feel that, melded together by some sort of power structure and force which is challenged by other littler bits that challenge the authority which is the status quo.
Hence it can be eternally split down into tiddleer and tiddleer bits.
Who determines if smaller areas can be counted as separate countries goes on how much clout the separatist bits have and if the recognised authority at the time can put them down or is force to acknowledge them.
No one claim seems more valid than another.
A country should be able to function for the benefit of those living there.
We live on an island ( excepting Ireland) our boundaries are more obvious.
So our boundaries aren"t obvious and France isn't a country! Do you actually have a position?
-
Even Switzerland isn't so small it hasn't got its separatists
http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/separatist-swiss-canton-celebrates-30-years/6939862
:o
Did I read that right? :o
Just when you think a country is a country, it starts splitting up, into bits ;)
I have no idea, what is it that you that think is correct?
-
So our boundaries aren"t obvious and France isn't a country! Do you actually have a position?
NS, I said our boundaries are more obvious. Who said France isn't a country? I didn't.
Yes my position is Scotland, England and Wales are part of the U.K and should remain so.
We are part of the same small landmass.
Northern Ireland isn't and IMO I'm flexible as to whether they go or remain, that's up to them.
But England Wales and Scotland are part of the same landmass.
Our boundaries are obvious because they are made up of the sea. We are an Island.
For better or worse.
You did ask ;)
You don't hear much about Scottish Terrorists but they exist.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_National_Liberation_Army
No matter what happens we are all still stuck on the same Island.
A small Island.
We can either get on with it and enjoy it, or make each other's lives a misery and hate each other.
I'd much rather we had a shared future rather than pandering to haters that send acid through the post to hurt someone who lives across the other side of an imaginary line.
-
I have no idea, what is it that you that think is correct?
That Switzerland, small as it is, has separatist groups.
-
Dear Blue,
I would like to second that emotion, and add, get it right up you Mr Farage.
Gonnagle.
They don't like it up 'em Mr. Gonnagle: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhWlAKdlQp4
-
Not really.
Most countries are formed by war and force, not democracy.
No one is offering Cornwall self determination no matter how much they want to be recognised as a country and not a county.
Same if they feel Cornish rather than English? ( or British)
Countries are not formed by democracy, they are formed by wars and invasion.
The queen wasn't elected by democracy either, she got there by the same process.
If you offer democracy ( in the form of independance) to Scotland, Wales and Ireland what about Cornwall?
Are they not entitled to democracy as well? Then you have counties, originally under the rule of smaller kingships and rulers.
Who is to say Essex or Somerset shouldn't also have the right to self determination?
The whole of civilisation on our little island was created by which thug in which area thumped the hardest and who went creeping up to who, and got made a lord or a squire.
Scotland fought once to retain its own band of rulers and they lost out, just like all the other areas of Britain.
The problem with self determination is that it all breaks up, back into its little bits.
It was force that joined it together, like the old USSR.
We are a very small country and we stand in danger of splitting into many little bits if we really did the self determination and democracy bit.
Sometimes we are more stable together.
Cornwall has its own flag / language and sees itself as a country.
How small do you want to go?
The Shetland Islands wanted independance from Scotland, which was roundly ignored. ( by the Scottish I hasten to add)
If you really wanted self determination and democracy, Scotland too gets smaller. Not even all of Scotland wants to be part of a United Scotland.
;)
Sometimes a stable peace is one imposed by force.
Not posh and democratic or self determining, but politically incorrect nowadays.
However it works, pretty much.
Civilisation forming was more about force than democracy.
Democracy is a luxury until it breaks us up to much.
You need a balance.
The difficulty comes when you tell Cornwall or Shetland they can't have the same right of determination because you don't recognise them.
I disagree if the population of Cornwall wanted to be independent then they should be allowed to be and this is what happens, e.g. Isle of Man.
-
Brexit MEP Hannan says Free movement of labour inevitable with EU but we will have ''some control''. Source BBC.
Still......... another day of ''wearing off'' Brexit euphoria and turdpolishing awaits Boris, Gove and Nigel.
-
Jak,
I'm clutching at straws here, but here's a scenario: alarmed by the rise of nationalism across Europe and the risk of a domino effect, the EU proposes major reforms and concessions as a last gasp effort to bring us back; Cameron takes it to the country; the electorate having seen markets tanking etc and the cluelessness of Johnson, Grayling et al re what happens next this time vote next time to remain.
It's an awful thin straw though...
I think Boris and Gove are now hoping for a turn round in public opinion towards a second referendum which as you say, having seen the markets tank, may deliver another result. If Brexitters such as Hannan begin to feed in the idea of ''inevitable free movement of labour'' and ''some control'' it may ease the consciences of regretful brexiters.
Boris can accurately claim that the two referendum scenario was his idea all along.
The Conservatives have about a week in which to get their act together otherwise their reputation will be completely shot.
-
The Brexoters decided to have a victory rally n Wembley Stadium. This was to be the first appearance together of Nigel farage and Boris johnson. The stadium was packed with their excited geriatric supporters.
As their adapted ex-popemobile completed its circuit of the stadium, two shots rang out. Nigel and Boris fell dead.
The gunman was arrested and brought before the magistrates.
The crime shown on the charge sheet:
COUNTRYSIDE
-
I disagree if the population of Cornwall wanted to be independent then they should be allowed to be and this is what happens, e.g. Isle of Man.
Ok then they should get the opportunity to vote then.
But it makes for very small groups.
Presumably as well, you support the petition to make London areas that voted remain, independent, from the rest of the U.K..
Otherwise it's discrimination. ( it says about London in link below 100,000 signatures now)
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/25/more-than-half-a-million-sign-petition-demanding-referendum-reru/
-
The Brexoters decided to have a victory rally n Wembley Stadium. This was to be the first appearance together of Nigel farage and Boris johnson. The stadium was packed with their excited geriatric supporters.
As their adapted ex-popemobile completed its circuit of the stadium, two shots rang out. Nigel and Boris fell dead.
The gunman was arrested and brought before the magistrates.
The crime shown on the charge sheet:
COUNTRYSIDE
That would be a phyrric victory.
-
Politicians run the country and shouldn't be putting the choices in the hands of the public when said public know bugger all about it, and vote with their gut reaction.
Bingo!
Not only that, but the motive for putting this particular choice into the hands of the public was avoiding the destruction of the Conservative Party. Well that backfired spectacularly.
-
Ok then they should get the opportunity to vote then.
But it makes for very small groups.
Presumably as well, you support the petition to make London areas that voted remain, independent, from the rest of the U.K..
Otherwise it's discrimination. ( it says about London in link below 100,000 signatures now)
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/25/more-than-half-a-million-sign-petition-demanding-referendum-reru/
If there is a serious political movement for independence, yes.
-
Following the (first) Scottish referendum, David Cameron had the opportunity to establish a commission to look at the British Constitution and to consider its relevance for the 21st century.
As he has always done, he put the interests of his party before those of the country and he decided on a fudge - English votes for English laws. He has also decided that in some places there can be tinkering with the mechanisms of governance. Hence we proposals for a "northern powerhouse" and a "greater West Midlands" - the relationship of these to the rest of the country does not seem to have been considered. But they are ad hoc, back-of-the-envelope musings with little evidence of strategy.
A commission would have been able to look at Cornwall and make appropriate recommendations - and for the electoral system, the nature of any second chamber, regionalisation and so on. Instead we had a quick fix that doesn't work.
-
If we are all wanting to go our own selfish way and turn the clock back to a time in the past which suits our personal agenda, can I ask for my own kingdom of the land that stretched from the Forth to the Humber to be returned and become special or independant.
-
Hmmmmm!
Imo to much democracy leads to anarchy.
To many little bits.
-
From the Indie:
"When a Remain vote was considered likely in May, Nigel Farage suggested he would support a second referendum if his side lost by a narrow margin.
The Ukip leader told the Mirror: “In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way. If the Remain campaign win two-thirds to one-third that ends it.”
He made no mention of the sentiment on Friday, when he triumphantly hailed “independence day” for Britain."
What a piece of work that man is.
-
It's how I feel. I see failure everywhere here: an EU that failed to engage and to clean up its act; a prime minister who took a punt for short term political expediency because he was afraid that UKIP would take tory votes at the last election; an ex London mayor buffoon angling for the top job, fuelled by an ancient posh boy enmity from his Bullingdon club days; a Labour leader disengaged and hidebound by his Dave Spartism; an electorate too stupid and gulled by the right wing press to realise that it was a turkey voting for Christmas. It's a perfect storm.
You know the saddest stat for me? It's not the collapsing pound or the crashing stock market, it's that 82% of 18-25 year-olds - the very people this catastrophe will hurt the most - voted remain. It's a fucking tragedy.
Whilst I agree wholeheartedly with your second paragraph, though I'm sad that as many as 18% fell for the lies of the Leave Campaign (aka the Self-Destruct campaign), I would have to disagree with much of your firdst paragraph.
an EU that failed to engage and to clean up its act
Agreed.
a prime minister who took a punt for short term political expediency because he was afraid that UKIP would take tory votes at the last election
Disagree. Here we had a prime minister who felt that such a constitutional issue needed what we have been promised (and denied) twice before - a referendum on our membership of an organisation that is very different to that which some of us voted on joining back in the mid-70s. What he and other Remainers didn't have was the ability to provide factual responses to the lies that came from the other side; the status quo is always much harder to argue for.
an ex London mayor buffoon angling for the top job ...
Partially agree: Boris is probably more intelligent than most of us here and may or may not have chosen the Leave campaign in order to angle for the top job. I have to say that I haven't seen or heard anything from him to suggest that he is overly keen on that outcome.
a Labour leader disengaged and hidebound by his Dave Spartism
JC has been a long-term Eurosceptic; I would have had more trust in what he said if he'd stuck to his long-term beliefs - even though they opposed mine. I susect that many Labour MPs had failed to listen to their own constituents resulting in their being so out of touch. At least the Tory split was more transparent.
an electorate too stupid and gulled by the right wing press to realise that it was a turkey voting for Christmas
Again, partial agreement. I'm not sure that it was only the right-wing press - or even only the press. I had made my mind up long before the referendum (or even its possibility) was announced: unfortunately, one needed to have an incredible knowlwedge of the EU and all things EU to be able to differentiate between the different claims most of which started out life with a degree of truth - only to be so spun either way to be made very difficult.
-
Hi Trent,
It's how I feel. I see failure everywhere here: an EU that failed to engage and to clean up its act; a prime minister who took a punt for short term political expediency because he was afraid that UKIP would take tory votes at the last election; an ex London mayor buffoon angling for the top job, fuelled by an ancient posh boy enmity from his Bullingdon club days; a Labour leader disengaged and hidebound by his Dave Spartism; an electorate too stupid and gulled by the right wing press to realise that it was a turkey voting for Christmas. It's a perfect storm.
You know the saddest stat for me? It's not the collapsing pound or the crashing stock market, it's that 82% of 18-25 year-olds - the very people this catastrophe will hurt the most - voted remain. It's a fucking tragedy.
All this and yet not a point against Farage so why the abuse at him? What has he done wrong?
Something must be bugging you because your OP lacks your usual elegant rhetoric.
-
From the Indie:
"When a Remain vote was considered likely in May, Nigel Farage suggested he would support a second referendum if his side lost by a narrow margin.
The Ukip leader told the Mirror: “In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way. If the Remain campaign win two-thirds to one-third that ends it.”
He made no mention of the sentiment on Friday, when he triumphantly hailed “independence day” for Britain."
What a piece of work that man is.
I can understand your dislike of Nigel, he isn't one of the worlds most personable people, that doesn't necessarily make his dislike of us here in the U K being a part of the Euro Zone, one of the used to be 28, wrong.
Your posts are very well expressed and leave no doubts about your line of thought about Nigel however I think you may have met your match were you to try to debate this in/out of the E U with him.
As for the racist comments he is supposed to have made, I have every reason to be sensitive, in this area because I'm someone that would be classified as white and so is my wife and we have two so called black children; I have heard his words misinterpreted to make him sound as though he is a racist and not heard him convey anything racist in his manner or words he has expressed either in the written or spoken word.
Bearing in mind we all get tired and frustrated at times including politicians and sometimes doesn't get it quite right right, surprisingly he's like the rest of us in that way.
By the way, as if you haven't guessed, I'm delighted at the leave result and I now look forward to making our own non EU decisions, like making our politicians become more representative of the people that vote for them, IMO with some form of PR; this need was underlined for me when listening to the Brexit preamble from all quarters.
ippy
-
I can understand your dislike of Nigel, he isn't one of the worlds most personable people, that doesn't necessarily make his dislike of us here in the U K being a part of the Euro Zone, one of the used to be 28, wrong.
Your posts are very well expressed and leave no doubts about your line of thought about Nigel however I think you may have met your match were you to try to debate this in/out of the E U with him.
As for the racist comments he is supposed to have made, I have every reason to be sensitive, in this area because I'm someone that would be classified as white and so is my wife and we have two so called black children; I have heard his words misinterpreted to make him sound as though he is a racist and not heard him convey anything racist in his manner or words he has expressed either in the written or spoken word.
Bearing in mind we all get tired and frustrated at times including politicians and sometimes doesn't get it quite right right, surprisingly he's like the rest of us in that way.
By the way, as if you haven't guessed, I'm delighted at the leave result and I now look forward to making our own non EU decisions, like making our politicians become more representative of the people that vote for them, IMO with some form of PR; this need was underlined for me when listening to the Brexit preamble from all quarters.
ippy
How do you feel about the economic impact....of which the leave campaign suggested wasn't a problem?
-
Irony
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/william-oliver-healey-referendum-petition_uk_576f8b28e4b0232d331e1b39
-
That really is quite funny.
-
How many other organisations allow as important a constitutional issue as this to be decided on the 50%+1 principle? None that I know of; all the charities and groups I belong to require at least a 2/3rds majority!!
-
Vey interesting piece from the Guardian comments section today:
"If Boris Johnson looked downbeat yesterday, that is because he realises that he has lost.
Perhaps many Brexiters do not realise it yet, but they have actually lost, and it is all down to one man: David Cameron.
With one fell swoop yesterday at 9:15 am, Cameron effectively annulled the referendum result, and simultaneously destroyed the political careers of Boris Johnson, Michael Gove and leading Brexiters who cost him so much anguish, not to mention his premiership.
How?
Throughout the campaign, Cameron had repeatedly said that a vote for leave would lead to triggering Article 50 straight away. Whether implicitly or explicitly, the image was clear: he would be giving that notice under Article 50 the morning after a vote to leave. Whether that was scaremongering or not is a bit moot now but, in the midst of the sentimental nautical references of his speech yesterday, he quietly abandoned that position and handed the responsibility over to his successor.
And as the day wore on, the enormity of that step started to sink in: the markets, Sterling, Scotland, the Irish border, the Gibraltar border, the frontier at Calais, the need to continue compliance with all EU regulations for a free market, re-issuing passports, Brits abroad, EU citizens in Britain, the mountain of legistlation to be torn up and rewritten ... the list grew and grew.
The referendum result is not binding. It is advisory. Parliament is not bound to commit itself in that same direction.
The Conservative party election that Cameron triggered will now have one question looming over it: will you, if elected as party leader, trigger the notice under Article 50?
Who will want to have the responsibility of all those ramifications and consequences on his/her head and shoulders?
Boris Johnson knew this yesterday, when he emerged subdued from his home and was even more subdued at the press conference. He has been out-maneouvered and check-mated.
If he runs for leadership of the party, and then fails to follow through on triggering Article 50, then he is finished. If he does not run and effectively abandons the field, then he is finished. If he runs, wins and pulls the UK out of the EU, then it will all be over - Scotland will break away, there will be upheaval in Ireland, a recession ... broken trade agreements. Then he is also finished. Boris Johnson knows all of this. When he acts like the dumb blond it is just that: an act.
The Brexit leaders now have a result that they cannot use. For them, leadership of the Tory party has become a poison chalice.
When Boris Johnson said there was no need to trigger Article 50 straight away, what he really meant to say was "never". When Michael Gove went on and on about "informal negotiations" ... why? why not the formal ones straight away? ... he also meant not triggering the formal departure. They both know what a formal demarche would mean: an irreversible step that neither of them is prepared to take.
All that remains is for someone to have the guts to stand up and say that Brexit is unachievable in reality without an enormous amount of pain and destruction, that cannot be borne. And David Cameron has put the onus of making that statement on the heads of the people who led the Brexit campaign.
"
-
Hope,
Disagree. Here we had a prime minister who felt that such a constitutional issue needed what we have been promised (and denied) twice before - a referendum on our membership of an organisation that is very different to that which some of us voted on joining back in the mid-70s. What he and other Remainers didn't have was the ability to provide factual responses to the lies that came from the other side; the status quo is always much harder to argue for.
You're kidding right? Cameron had shown no interest in opening that can of worms before he saw UKIP attacking his electoral base in the tory heartland prior to the last election, and he knew all too well that Europe had ripped his party apart for more than a generation whenever the issue came up.
Why on earth otherwise would he had a sudden rush of blood to the head and decided then of all times that it was time to hold an in/out reference?
-
JK,
All this and yet not a point against Farage so why the abuse at him? What has he done wrong?
Something must be bugging you because your OP lacks your usual elegant rhetoric.
Farage is a grotesque and a buffoon. My point though was that it required a perfect storm of incompetence and mendacity from others for his views to prevail rather than - as before - for him just to be laughed at.
-
ipster,
I can understand your dislike of Nigel, he isn't one of the worlds most personable people, that doesn't necessarily make his dislike of us here in the U K being a part of the Euro Zone, one of the used to be 28, wrong.
Your posts are very well expressed and leave no doubts about your line of thought about Nigel however I think you may have met your match were you to try to debate this in/out of the E U with him.
As for the racist comments he is supposed to have made, I have every reason to be sensitive, in this area because I'm someone that would be classified as white and so is my wife and we have two so called black children; I have heard his words misinterpreted to make him sound as though he is a racist and not heard him convey anything racist in his manner or words he has expressed either in the written or spoken word.
Bearing in mind we all get tired and frustrated at times including politicians and sometimes doesn't get it quite right right, surprisingly he's like the rest of us in that way.
By the way, as if you haven't guessed, I'm delighted at the leave result and I now look forward to making our own non EU decisions, like making our politicians become more representative of the people that vote for them, IMO with some form of PR; this need was underlined for me when listening to the Brexit preamble from all quarters.
Farage's "well, would you like a family of Romanians living next door to you?" style racism is well-documented, for all his apparently emollient, "if we need more doctors from the Indian sub-continent, we should welcome them" counter-position at other times. I don't though see him as the problem all on his own - for a virus to succeed lots of other factors need to be in place and it's the perfect storm of those factors I was more recently talking about.
As for leaving, well I disagree - tell it to the pupils at may daughter's speech day yesterday at her very European-minded, languages orientated school where she's made so many friends from France, Germany, Italy, Spain etc. The sense of anger and loss of opportunity was palpable, as Johnson, Gove etc have taken a wrecking ball to their aspirations.
Still - maybe it'll never happen (see the Guardian piece I posted), or maybe it'll cause enough other member sates to leave (or just to threaten to) that they'll have to re-make the institutions along more democratic lines. I certainly hope so - the emergence of a tooled up Russia, territorially ambitious China, the situation in the Middle East etc means operating as a stand alone sovereign country is a very vulnerable place to be, and the loss of diplomatic influence we had as part of a larger trading bloc will hurt all western democracies I think.
There's a lot more to come I think before this story is done.
-
What concerns me is that what with the undemocratic methods suggested by some of the remain voters, and the media whipping up feelings about Scotland blocking an exit and our two main political parties being disorganised and the primeminister resigning, that it might be ripe for someone like Nigel Farage or other radical person to get voted in.
( Nigel Farage might not be the worst )
What I don't want to see is the leave supporters being radicalised by the way the remain supporters are carrying on, plus Scotland ( or at least spurred on by the media) and voting for someone completely unsuitable.
It could happen if people feel what happens after the vote is undemocratic or their voice has been suppressed.
They might latch onto someone they feel will "put it right".
Hitler got in by riding in on a wave of discontent.
I am seeing some remain supporters suggesting things I think may instigate that.
Emotions seem so high ATM.
It's not good.
( it might sound extreme for British people, but the atmosphere around this whole thing is explosive)
-
Vey interesting piece from the Guardian comments section today:
"If Boris Johnson looked downbeat yesterday, that is because he realises that he has lost.
The Brexit leaders now have a result that they cannot use. For them, leadership of the Tory party has become a poison chalice.
When Boris Johnson said there was no need to trigger Article 50 straight away, what he really meant to say was "never". When Michael Gove went on and on about "informal negotiations" ... why? why not the formal ones straight away? ... he also meant not triggering the formal departure. They both know what a formal demarche would mean: an irreversible step that neither of them is prepared to take.
All that remains is for someone to have the guts to stand up and say that Brexit is unachievable in reality without an enormous amount of pain and destruction, that cannot be borne. And David Cameron has put the onus of making that statement on the heads of the people who led the Brexit campaign.
"
What with this, the EU having no way of forcing the PM to invoke Article 50, and Sturgeon with a possible veto..........
It looks like a Brexican standoff.
-
What concerns me is that what with the undemocratic methods suggested by some of the remain voters, ...
You mean like their unwillingness to press the Article 50 button, or to start the disengagement process? Are the remainers' tactics any more undemocratic than the now acknowledged lies that the 'Vote Leave' used to make their case?
-
Hope,
You mean like their unwillingness to press the Article 50 button, or to start the disengagement process? Are the remainers' tactics any more undemocratic than the now acknowledged lies that the 'Vote Leave' used to make their case?
No. The petition is badly worded (and it turns out was done by a leaver to boot) but it seems to me that to a significant extent the Brexit vote was determined by the lies that the leavers swallowed. My view (which there's no chance whatever of ever happening) is that there should be a re-run, only with all factual claims checked and commented on by an independent office of factual accuracy.
This thing is far too important to be decided on the claims of one politician at least with the moral compass of a polecat.
-
Michael Heseltine was on tv this morning. He said that the withdrawal negotiations should be done by those who wanted to withdraw in the first place. Hence, the negotiators for exit should be Messrs Johnson, Gove and Farage. When their negotiations are complete, their proposals should be put to the nation in a second referendum.
-
Michael Heseltine was on tv this morning. He said that the withdrawal negotiations should be done by those who wanted to withdraw in the first place. Hence, the negotiators for exit should be Messrs Johnson, Gove and Farage. When their negotiations are complete, their proposals should be put to the nation in a second referendum.
I wish!
-
Michael Heseltine was on tv this morning. He said that the withdrawal negotiations should be done by those who wanted to withdraw in the first place. Hence, the negotiators for exit should be Messrs Johnson, Gove and Farage. When their negotiations are complete, their proposals should be put to the nation in a second referendum.
I have to admit I find the idea of this second referendum somewhat baffling. Surely you end up with the problem a vote against the result of negotiations is not necessarily a vote to stay? Never mind the actual application of Article 50.
-
Hi HH,
Michael Heseltine was on tv this morning. He said that the withdrawal negotiations should be done by those who wanted to withdraw in the first place. Hence, the negotiators for exit should be Messrs Johnson, Gove and Farage. When their negotiations are complete, their proposals should be put to the nation in a second referendum.
I heard him say the same thing on Radio 4. I have some sympathy for that - if you break it, then you fix it I'd say. So far the vote has been about what people don't want - ie, membership of the EU. What though they'll get instead in its place is hanging in the air - if and when Johnson et al finish negotiating and then say, "OK, here's the package of what this actually means in practice" then I suspect that many outers will be horrified, but will have no further opportunity to vote.
Me, I'd have a re-run now with an independent office of fact checking verifying the claims of both sides, and I'd want another one on the practical arrangements once they'd been agreed.
-
I think he also mentioned that the deal whenever it is sorted, will need the approval of the commons, and the vast majority there (at the moment) favour remain, so they can just reject it?
-
Hi NS,
I have to admit I find the idea of this second referendum somewhat baffling. Surely you end up with the problem a vote against the result of negotiations is not necessarily a vote to stay? Never mind the actual application of Article 50.
Yes you would - the question therefore would have to be something like, "Having negotiated to the best of our ability, this is the only set of practical arrangements on the table. Do you:
A: accept it
B: wish to return to the membership arrangements prior to the June 2016 referendum?"
-
Hi NS,
Yes you would - the question therefore would have to be something like, "Having negotiated to the best of our ability, this is the only set of practical arrangements on the table. Do you:
A: accept it
B: wish to return to the membership arrangements prior to the June 2016 referendum?"
And for B to apply we would have to have all of the EU nations to agree that it's an option, which might not be entirely legal given Article 50.
-
NS,
And for B to apply we would have to have all of the EU nations to agree that it's an option, which might not be entirely legal given Article 50.
Don't know. Optimally you'd want to complete the negotiations and have the vote, and only if it was a "yes" hit the Art 50 button to set Brexit in train without further ado. Presumably the response would be, "but we can't negotiate in the first place without Art 50 being invoked" but given the trauma to all parties I'd have thought some practical solution could be devised.
-
Hi NS,
Yes you would - the question therefore would have to be something like, "Having negotiated to the best of our ability, this is the only set of practical arrangements on the table. Do you:
A: accept it
B: wish to return to the membership arrangements prior to the June 2016 referendum?"
This would need to be done before Article 50 was activated since it isn't known if the EU would be prepared to negotiate any arrangements prior to Article 50 being activated - without Article 50 they might be more inclined to let us wallow in our self-inflicted mess.
Leaving aside the issue of Scotland for now, I'd have thought the only way to rescind this madness would be via an appropriate democratic processes, such as a General election where one or more of the parties stood on a manifesto of voiding the referendum - I think Michael Heseltine suggested something along those lines - which if they won enough seats would be a democratic mandate to stop Article 50 dead in its tracks.
Of course, given Labour's continued implosion, this would probably requite a split of the Tory party into two, so that the current Tory pro EU element could combine with the other pro EU parties to stop Brexit - if they got enough seats.
Or something like that.
-
Michael Heseltine was on tv this morning. He said that the withdrawal negotiations should be done by those who wanted to withdraw in the first place. Hence, the negotiators for exit should be Messrs Johnson, Gove and Farage. When their negotiations are complete, their proposals should be put to the nation in a second referendum.
It can't be done. Negotiations won't even start until we have committed to leave.
-
NS,
Don't know. Optimally you'd want to complete the negotiations and have the vote, and only if it was a "yes" hit the Art 50 button to set Brexit in train without further ado. Presumably the response would be, "but we can't negotiate in the first place without Art 50 being invoked" but given the trauma to all parties I'd have thought some practical solution could be devised.
Don't think you can have formal negotiations without Article 50. The problem with any 'practical' solution is that it would seem likely to be a illegal one. In addition, I am not sure that dependent on the results of negotiations, it would not trigger other referendums as a change to the overall treaty with other members.
-
I think he also mentioned that the deal whenever it is sorted, will need the approval of the commons, and the vast majority there (at the moment) favour remain, so they can just reject it?
I think they can reject it, because it isn't actually binding.
But I think they think it's political suicide for someone to do.
The scary thought is it could whip up an ugly scene with the leave supporters who might riot, there is rather a lot of them, just to be ignored.
I thought we didn't do " revolution " in the UK, but I'm not so sure anymore. :o
The danger then is the next election we might find a real " nutter " getting voted in because people want a leader that will hit back and represent them rather than ignore them and do what they want anyway
Plus our relationship with the EU seems buggered now.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36630326
I'm sure her comments about it not having a need to be nasty has its roots somewhere.
Plus would the EU be prepared to work with us if we renage on a diplomatic vote?
I think we would lose even more respect in Europe.
Not sure what the answer is, but I'm not sure that's it :-\ :(
-
Don't think you can have formal negotiations without Article 50. The problem with any 'practical' solution is that it would seem likely to be a illegal one. In addition, I am not sure that dependent on the results of negotiations, it would not trigger other referendums as a change to the overall treaty with other members.
Yes it's a bit like " which came first, the chicken or the egg"
I also read once they trigger it, that's it.
It's unreversable
-
Yes it's a bit like " which came first, the chicken or the egg"
I also read once they trigger it, that's it.
It's unreversable
We can't have negotiations until we trigger article 50. Once we do that, leaving is irreversible. If Parliament fails to ratify whatever agreement the negotiators come up with, we are still out, but we are out without a trade deal with the EU.
-
We can't have negotiations until we trigger article 50. Once we do that, leaving is irreversible. If Parliament fails to ratify whatever agreement the negotiators come up with, we are still out, but we are out without a trade deal with the EU.
It seems that way, so somebody has to find a legal and democratic way to stop Article 50 being activated.
-
It seems that way, so somebody has to find a legal and democratic way to stop Article 50 being activated.
Govt writes a letter. There isn't an issue.
-
This would need to be done before Article 50 was activated since it isn't known if the EU would be prepared to negotiate any arrangements prior to Article 50 being activated - without Article 50 they might be more inclined to let us wallow in our self-inflicted mess.
Leaving aside the issue of Scotland for now, I'd have thought the only way to rescind this madness would be via an appropriate democratic processes, such as a General election where one or more of the parties stood on a manifesto of voiding the referendum - I think Michael Heseltine suggested something along those lines - which if they won enough seats would be a democratic mandate to stop Article 50 dead in its tracks.
Of course, given Labour's continued implosion, this would probably requite a split of the Tory party into two, so that the current Tory pro EU element could combine with the other pro EU parties to stop Brexit - if they got enough seats.
Or something like that.
The trouble is the political parties are a mess ATM and the danger is someone like Hitler rides in on the reasons and fears that got us the Brexit in the first place.
I think it's worrying for us to have an election in the present vacuum.
Tying it up with the EU could trigger something worse, especially if people feel their original vote is being sabotaged.
It's a right mess.
-
Tying it up with the EU could trigger something worse, especially if people feel their original vote is being sabotaged.
You mean like us in Scotland!
-
Could we not just rename the whole thing Scotland, and then stay in?
-
We can't have negotiations until we trigger article 50. Once we do that, leaving is irreversible. If Parliament fails to ratify whatever agreement the negotiators come up with, we are still out, but we are out without a trade deal with the EU.
Yes I know.
Once we start article 50 we are stuck with whatever crappy deal we can get.
The only thing I can think is they see what trade deals can be negotiated outside the EU.
But we might not be able to do that either, as we are bound by the EU.
We could negotiate with countries outside the EU I suppose if the EU cut us some slack.
It might help a bit.
See if we can
-
It seems that way, so somebody has to find a legal and democratic way to stop Article 50 being activated.
The legal way to stop article 50 from being activated is to not trigger article 50. There is no legal obligation for any government to act on the referendum result.
The democratic way to stop it would be to have another referendum but that shouldn't happen without overwhelming evidence that the People would vote the other way. Another democratic way would be for the next PM to call a general election and then have "triggering article 50" as a manifesto issue.
-
You mean like us in Scotland!
No I actually meant that it might act as a incentive for people to vote for racist elements in England.
I find that worrying.
I'm sure you don't want to be attached to that either.
We need to sort this mess out, before we can look at Scotland.
A rushed independence isn't good either, especially ATM.
-
The legal way to stop article 50 from being activated is to not trigger article 50. There is no legal obligation for any government to act on the referendum result.
The democratic way to stop it would be to have another referendum but that shouldn't happen without overwhelming evidence that the People would vote the other way. Another democratic way would be for the next PM to call a general election and then have "triggering article 50" as a manifesto issue.
The leaders of the EU already seem pissed off with us
The leaders of the EU’s institutions, notably Jean-Claude Juncker, the president of the European commission, are taking a hard line against the British.
On Friday, Juncker bluntly told a defeated David Cameron over the phone that, as the British decision was crystal clear, the prime minister should get on with triggering article 50 to launch negotiations as soon as possible. Sharing this view is Martin Schulz, the president of the European parliament, who has voiced outrage that the Conservative party “is holding the continent hostage”.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/27/brexit-key-european-players-angela-merkel-eu
All what you are suggesting takes time and I've got a horrible feeling we haven't got the sympathy of the rest of the EU for that to work.
It's like being pushed off a cliff.
-
The leaders of the EU already seem pissed off with us
All what you are suggesting takes time and I've got a horrible feeling we haven't got the sympathy of the rest of the EU for that to work.
It's like being pushed off a cliff.
I was just stating the facts as they related to a question that was asked.
Yes, the EU leaders are pissed off. We've just kicked them in the bollocks. However, ultimately, they want us in the EU.
-
We need to sort this mess out, before we can look at Scotland.
A rushed independence isn't good either, especially ATM.
Some of us Scots think otherwise.
-
http://openeurope.org.uk/today/blog/the-mechanics-of-leaving-the-eu-explaining-article-50/
-
Some of us Scots think otherwise.
It's bad timing ATM.
Some Scots might not think so, but it is.
;)
-
Dear Forum,
Just for the record and I will post this on all the threads concerning Brexit, why? It has to be shouted loud and clear.
This whole debacle, this absolute mess, this catastrophe lies at the feet of the Conservative Party, this EU Referendum was a party political stunt, it never had the thoughts and wishes of the people of Great Britain uppermost.
We now have a nation divided, the Scots are shouting Independence, Northern Ireland are also talking about joining the Republic and both those countries are now wondering about border controls.
Our Capital city ( London ) voted overwhelmingly to remain the rest of England voted to exit, we now have a nation totally divided, our nation is in turmoil because of Tory infighting.
Our Prime Minister ( a Tory ) has washed his hands of the whole mess, we are now left with Tories who don’t have a clue about a way forward.
I have often said that ( long before we even considered a EU Referendum ) the Tory party is the most unchristian, unBritish party we have.
Time for the Conservative Party to disband, give them their marching orders, we a fed up with a party that plays politics, that plays with the life’s of every citizen of Great Britain, they have forfeited the right to stand in our House of Commons, the only thing that mattered to a Tory was the Conservative Party the rights of a British citizen came second, they are a boil on the backside of Great Britain, time to lance that boil.
Gonnagle.
-
jeremy,
It can't be done. Negotiations won't even start until we have committed to leave.
Anything can be done with sufficient will of the participants. If the rule is, "no negotiations until Art 50 is invoked" then it's not beyond the wit of man for the Council of Ministers to decide that the European Parliament should pass emergency legislation for "Art 50 light" whereby serious negotiations can occur but cannot be implemented until "Art 50 heavy" is invoked. The "should Art 50 heavy be invoked" would then be the question for the final referendum, or perhaps a manifesto issue at a general election.
-
This is an interesting link and is a Americans guide to Brexit
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/25/american-guide-to-brexit-uk-leave-vote-eu-britain
It reckons the sun said the Queen approves of us leaving Europe.
Not heard that before.
(It's standing outside, looking back in.
Always interesting to see ourselves as others see us.)
:)
This made me smile, especially the picture of Boris Johnson
Conservative MPs will get a list of names down to two, then the 150,000 members of the party will have the final say. Whether the MPs allow Cameron to stay in power until October, or force the process to begin earlier, remains to be seen. The former mayor of London, Boris Johnson – a charismatic but shifty politician who has, it appears, successfully bet his career on backing the leave side – is the favourite.
He does look shifty in that photo, lol.
The Americans seem to have such a "quaint " picture of us.
It's like being portrayed as living in Trumpton.
And here is Mr Johnson, the shifty looking mayor from London ........
-
jeremy,
Anything can be done with sufficient will of the participants. If the rule is, "no negotiations until Art 50 is invoked" then it's not beyond the wit of man for the Council of Ministers to decide that the European Parliament should pass emergency legislation for "Art 50 light" whereby serious negotiations can occur but cannot be implemented until "Art 50 heavy" is invoked. The "should Art 50 heavy be invoked" would then be the question for the final referendum, or perhaps a manifesto issue at a general election.
Article 50 lite
I like it.
But you have to convince those grumpy people in the EU ;D
-
NS,
Don't think you can have formal negotiations without Article 50. The problem with any 'practical' solution is that it would seem likely to be a illegal one. In addition, I am not sure that dependent on the results of negotiations, it would not trigger other referendums as a change to the overall treaty with other members.
Rules can be changed. My sense is that the out vote is still very "protesty" - if a specific package of arrangements are on the table post negotiation when potential leavers could actually see what thy'd be voting for that seems to me to be a much better basis on which to decide in or out.
As for other members, yes it might but would that be such a bad thing? I quite like the idea of several Member States causing the whole thing to be re-made along more democratic, free-market based lines. As things stand though, the current situation - UK out so it can't change anything, the rest of the EU carrying on as before - seems to me to be the worst answer of all.
-
Vey interesting piece from the Guardian comments section today:
"If Boris Johnson looked downbeat yesterday, that is because he realises that he has lost.
Perhaps many Brexiters do not realise it yet, but they have actually lost, and it is all down to one man: David Cameron.
With one fell swoop yesterday at 9:15 am, Cameron effectively annulled the referendum result, and simultaneously destroyed the political careers of Boris Johnson, Michael Gove and leading Brexiters who cost him so much anguish, not to mention his premiership.
How?
Throughout the campaign, Cameron had repeatedly said that a vote for leave would lead to triggering Article 50 straight away. Whether implicitly or explicitly, the image was clear: he would be giving that notice under Article 50 the morning after a vote to leave. Whether that was scaremongering or not is a bit moot now but, in the midst of the sentimental nautical references of his speech yesterday, he quietly abandoned that position and handed the responsibility over to his successor.
And as the day wore on, the enormity of that step started to sink in: the markets, Sterling, Scotland, the Irish border, the Gibraltar border, the frontier at Calais, the need to continue compliance with all EU regulations for a free market, re-issuing passports, Brits abroad, EU citizens in Britain, the mountain of legistlation to be torn up and rewritten ... the list grew and grew.
The referendum result is not binding. It is advisory. Parliament is not bound to commit itself in that same direction.
The Conservative party election that Cameron triggered will now have one question looming over it: will you, if elected as party leader, trigger the notice under Article 50?
Who will want to have the responsibility of all those ramifications and consequences on his/her head and shoulders?
Boris Johnson knew this yesterday, when he emerged subdued from his home and was even more subdued at the press conference. He has been out-maneouvered and check-mated.
If he runs for leadership of the party, and then fails to follow through on triggering Article 50, then he is finished. If he does not run and effectively abandons the field, then he is finished. If he runs, wins and pulls the UK out of the EU, then it will all be over - Scotland will break away, there will be upheaval in Ireland, a recession ... broken trade agreements. Then he is also finished. Boris Johnson knows all of this. When he acts like the dumb blond it is just that: an act.
The Brexit leaders now have a result that they cannot use. For them, leadership of the Tory party has become a poison chalice.
When Boris Johnson said there was no need to trigger Article 50 straight away, what he really meant to say was "never". When Michael Gove went on and on about "informal negotiations" ... why? why not the formal ones straight away? ... he also meant not triggering the formal departure. They both know what a formal demarche would mean: an irreversible step that neither of them is prepared to take.
All that remains is for someone to have the guts to stand up and say that Brexit is unachievable in reality without an enormous amount of pain and destruction, that cannot be borne. And David Cameron has put the onus of making that statement on the heads of the people who led the Brexit campaign.
"
I don't think Boris ever wanted to win. It was just a gesture for his leadership ambitions.
-
If Boris does win I hope he is taken, kicking and screaming if necessary, to a decent barber! :D
-
Dear Floo,
Sweeney Todd, he was a barber ;)
Gonnagle.
-
JK,
Farage is a grotesque and a buffoon.
He's not, and these are mere words and explain nothing of your standpoint on the matter.
My point though was that it required a perfect storm of incompetence and mendacity from others for his views to prevail rather than - as before - for him just to be laughed at.
Who are these others? The Tory lot? They have been there for years.
The fact is the EU is another version of the USSR with its plan to concentrate power in Brussels which will attract the likes of Stalinesque psychos.
-
He's not, and these are mere words and explain nothing of your standpoint on the matter.
Who are these others? The Tory lot? They have been there for years.
The fact is the EU is another version of the USSR with its plan to concentrate power in Brussels which will attract the likes of Stalinesque psychos.
You can stop lying now. You won. Instead I'd start thinking about what you are going to say to all the people who will lose their jobs now.
-
JK,
I don't think Boris ever wanted to win. It was just a gesture for his leadership ambitions.
Dear Boris,
Look, you fucked up this time and have been found out. Really, really fucked up and all in the pursuit of your personal political ambitions. You know it, we know it. You never thought you'd win I'm sure, but presumably you calculated that you'd rally enough support in a losing Brexit campaign to justify a leadership bid later on. That's why you didn't bother thinking it through and have no plan of any kind for the huge obstacles that withdrawal would entail. Between us, I suspect too that we both know that what you've brought about is the worst of all worlds - markets tanking, sterling at a 30 year low against the dollar, financial companies already planning to relocate from the UK, racist abuse reported in London and Cambridgeshire, the global power players rubbing their hands at the opportunities a fractured Europe has presented them, the break up of the Union - you name it, it's a catastrophe isn't it. "Project fear" turned out to be project reality and then some, just as you were told it would be.
So what can you do about it? Here's what - you forget your ambitions, give "call me" Dave a ring and tell him you'd be very keen on him proposing to the other EU leaders this week "Art 50 lite" and that you - Boris - as prime minister would take the resulting package to the country for a yes/no vote when they have a clear, not lies-based choice to be had.
If the vote then is to leave, your position would be legitimised; if it's a "no" then you'd say that the people have spoken and you might just get away with it.
You're welcome,
Blue
-
Sweeny Todd?
Gonzo was quicker, with better spelling.
-
You can stop lying now. You won. Instead I'd start thinking about what you are going to say to all the people who will lose their jobs now.
MEeee?
What have done? I never triggered this referendum!!!
-
JK,
He's not, and these are mere words and explain nothing of your standpoint on the matter.
He is, and I could tell you why. That though isn't what this discussion is about.
Who are these others? The Tory lot? They have been there for years.
The people I listed in an earlier post - the EU's remoteness, arrogance and lack of democratic accountability; PR man Cameron's short term expediency; Corbyn's uselessness; years of anti-European rhetoric underpinned by a right wing press owned by non-dom billionaires and, depressingly, so on.
The fact is the EU is another version of the USSR with its plan to concentrate power in Brussels which will attract the likes of Stalinesque psychos.
It's no such thing. Why pretend otherwise?
So, what's your solution for the catastrophic consequences of Brexit we're already seeing visited upon us?
-
Dear Blue,
Can I humbly ask to have my name attached to your wonderful letter. ;)
Gonnagle.
-
Just a thought: Liverpool voted remain, bucking the trend of most northern cities (Leeds, which has a large financial services sector, excepted). Almost no-one n L'pool has bought The Sun this last 30 years.
Do newspapers materially influence the outcomes of elections and referenda? When the margin of victory is so tight, possibly so.
-
JK,
Dear Boris,
Look, you fucked up this time and have been found out. Really, really fucked up and all in the pursuit of your personal political ambitions. You know it, we know it. You never thought you'd win I'm sure, but presumably you calculated that you'd rally enough support in a losing Brexit campaign to justify a leadership bid later on. That's why you didn't bother thinking it through and have no plan of any kind for the huge obstacles that withdrawal would entail. Between us, I suspect too that we both know that what you've brought about is the worst of all worlds - markets tanking, sterling at a 30 year low against the dollar, financial companies already planning to relocate from the UK, racist abuse reported in London and Cambridgeshire, the global power players rubbing their hands at the opportunities a fractured Europe has presented them, the break up of the Union - you name it, it's a catastrophe isn't it. "Project fear" turned out to be project reality and then some, just as you were told it would be.
So what can you do about it? Here's what - you forget your ambitions, give "call me" Dave a ring and tell him you'd be very keen on him proposing to the other EU leaders this week "Art 50 lite" and that you - Boris - as prime minister would take the resulting package to the country for a yes/no vote when they have a clear, not lies-based choice to be had.
If the vote then is to leave, your position would be legitimised; if it's a "no" then you'd say that the people have spoken and you might just get away with it.
You're welcome,
Blue
You sound very emotional, Blue.
One of the problems here is that people are allowing their emotions and short-termism to get the better of them - hence all the crap that is going on at the moment. People need to look at the long term picture. If one panics and talks of doom then it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. What is needed is a steady, calm tiller.
-
Dear Jackie boy,
No not your fault old son, Cameron & Co, the fault lies fairly and squarely at their feet, they are the true enemy of Great Britain or what some call The United Kingdom, which sadly is no longer United.
Gonnagle.
-
Gonzo was quicker, with better spelling.
That's why I remove mine.
-
JK,
You sound very emotional, Blue.
One of the problems here is that people are allowing their emotions and short-termism to get the better of them - hence all the crap that is going on at the moment. People need to look at the long term picture. If one panics and talks of doom then it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. What is needed is a steady, calm tiller.
Where do you think I'm factually wrong?
As for a calm hand on the tiller - that's exactly what I offered him, including advice on which way to steer.
-
JK,
He is, and I could tell you why. That though isn't what this discussion is about.
But the fact you have parked it here makes it part of the thread.
The people I listed in an earlier post - the EU's remoteness, arrogance and lack of democratic accountability; PR man Cameron's short term expediency; Corbyn's uselessness; years of anti-European rhetoric underpinned by a right wing press owned by non-dom billionaires and, depressingly, so on.
It's not as though the EU wasn't told again and again and again. But they did nothing. This is what dictators, totalitarian states do, they don't listen and just carry on with their ideological plans. Then some form of revolution takes place - yes it's messy etc. but that's life.
As for Cameron, and the rest, he and they are products of an elite who do not listen and have too much power.
It's no such thing. Why pretend otherwise?
So, what's your solution for the catastrophic consequences of Brexit we're already seeing visited upon us?
Yes it is. Its Ever-Closer-Union, federal state is just that. Power corrupts and when all the power is in Brussels it will corrupt absolutely, as it did in Moscow during the Soviet Union.
My solution is a total withdrawal from the EU political system. Trade only. There are enough dissenting voices in the EU of the EU, and that it is falling apart in many ways, that something really needs to be done about the whole thing.
-
Gonners,
Can I humbly ask to have my name attached to your wonderful letter. ;)
As ever my friend, you're far too kind.
-
Dear Jackie boy,
Nero fiddling whilst Rome burns :( who do you suggest should be at the helm of this ship, the person who has his hand on the tiller, Boris :o he may have went to one of our top universities but he is not intelligent enough to steer the ship, Nigel :o to volatile for me, it does need a calm hand to steer this ship.
Tell me Jack old son, who do you think should be Captain of this sinking ship, it is sinking, it has not sunk, yet, and a final question for you, this 250 million that we suddenly have in reserve, where did that come from, we suddenly have all this money in reserve but every Tory was shouting about austerity :o
Gonnagle.
-
JK,
Where do you think I'm factually wrong?
As for a calm hand on the tiller - that's exactly what I offered him, including advice on which way to steer.
You are wrong because you are running scared, crouching in the corner, rocking backwards and forwards, chanting "Turn back, turn back!!!"
Have you read the Narnia books. You're the dwarves in the hut, at the end, perceiving the place as dark with only straw around them.
-
Dear Jackie boy,
Nero fiddling whilst Rome burns :( who do you suggest should be at the helm of this ship, the person who has his hand on the tiller, Boris :o he may have went to one of our top universities but he is not intelligent enough to steer the ship, Nigel :o to volatile for me, it does need a calm hand to steer this ship.
Tell me Jack old son, who do you think should be Captain of this sinking ship, it is sinking, it has not sunk, yet, and a final question for you, this 250 million that we suddenly have in reserve, where did that come from, we suddenly have all this money in reserve but every Tory was shouting about austerity :o
Gonnagle.
Nigel's the man, with UKIP. He has worked in the EU for decades, he knows how those bastards think and work.
I mentioned the 250 billion else where some days ago. It is a total sham; the central banks working with the banksters to extend and pretend that this Neo-Libreal project is still a going concern when in fact it is floating in the waters like a dead fish.
-
JK,
You are wrong because you are running scared, crouching in the corner, rocking backwards and forwards, chanting "Turn back, turn back!!!"
Have you read the Narnia books. You're the dwarves in the hut, at the end, perceiving the place as dark with only straw around them.
Leaving aside the irony of that - surely it's the Brexiters who are dong just that with regard to Europe isn't it? - what I'm actually saying is more like, 'this decision is so important that it should be made on the basis of facts rather than lies, and on the basis of people knowing what they're being asked to vote for rather than just against".
My question for you by the way concerned where you thought I was factually incorrect.
-
Dear Jack,
Nigel's the man, with UKIP. He has worked in the EU for decades, he knows how those bastards think and work.
I mentioned the 250 billion else where some days ago. It is a total sham; the central banks working with the banksters to extend and pretend that this Neo-Libreal project is still a going concern when in fact it is floating in the waters like a dead fish.
Nigel :o :o has he put forward a plan, if so can you point me to it, and I am not a conspiracy theory kind of guy but your explanation of the 250 million could well be right, suddenly we have this spare cash :o
Gonnagle.
-
Just thinking out loud here, but just imagine you were a keen rugby (or any other sport) player and I said, "those rules of rugby. They're rubbish aren't they. Why don't we have a vote on whether to get rid of them?"
And then we had the vote, and the majority of players voted to get rid of the rules.
Then what? Surely at some point someone would have to say something like, "Oh, by the way - here's the best set of set of rules we can agree with the RFU, and that we propose therefore for a replacement. How do you feel about them - accept, or would you prefer to return the previous ones?"
-
Still musing - cracking idea for a cartoon...
You know that part of the Roadrunner cartoons when Wylie E Coyote runs headlong off the cliff, suddenly realises there's nothing beneath him, and looks quizzically at the "camera" before plummeting to earth far below?
I wonder if a cartoonist couldn't recreate that with Boris as Wylie, and "EU" written on the cliff?
-
Dear Blue,
You should follow old Sanes links more closely, the road runner has already been used, which reminds me, Sane old chum, the majority of the time you post a youtube link, all I get is a collection of my favourites :o :o
Gonnagle.
-
Gonners,
You should follow old Sanes links more closely, the road runner has already been used...
Has it? Sorry, I missed it - and there's me thinking I was being all original too.
Ah well.
-
Nigel's the man, with UKIP. He has worked in the EU for decades, he knows how those bastards think and work.
Then explain why this clown has a mandate to represent the views of Scotland in any discussions?
Just in case you missed it, in the recent Holyrood elections his party didn't contest any constituency seats and got just 2% of the regional votes gaining a massive zero seats, and then of course his pitch on the EU was comprehensively rejected by voters here.
Nigel is not 'the man'.
-
Gordon,
Nigel is not 'the man'.
...unless you add the suffix "-iac".
-
If Boris does win I hope he is taken, kicking and screaming if necessary, to a decent barber! :D
Nah!
It's part of his cute and cuddly look ;)
-
Then explain why this clown has a mandate to represent the views of Scotland in any discussions?
Just in case you missed it, in the recent Holyrood elections his party didn't contest any constituency seats and got just 2% of the regional votes gaining a massive zero seats, and then of course his pitch on the EU was comprehensively rejected by voters here.
Nigel is not 'the man'.
No fan of Farage and I can't see him being involved at all in negotiations, although anyone is better than SNP. :) Don't accept he has no mandate to represent the UK though as his party do have support.
In the last GE total votes cast for the SNP were less than that of the LibDems.
-
MEeee?
What have done? I never triggered this referendum!!!
But you presumably voted Leave. Stop trying to pass the buck.
-
No fan of Farage and I can't see him being involved at all in negotiations, although anyone is better than SNP. :) Don't accept he has no mandate to represent the UK though as his party do have support.
In the last GE total votes cast for the SNP were less than that of the LibDems.
That would be though because the SNP only campaign in Scotland, and on that basis the SNP do have a mandate to represent Scotland based on Scottish votes. It is quite calling to see the coverage Nigel and Boris get on national media given their irrelevance here in Scotland.
-
JK,
Leaving aside the irony of that - ....
My question for you by the way concerned where you thought I was factually incorrect.
What you refer to as irony was my answer to your question. All you were doing for the most part was project fear of saying look at this and that it is all falling apart - all this being short term, myopia, of what seems to be going on now. My proposal is about how things will span out in the long term and that being for the better.
surely it's the Brexiters who are dong just that with regard to Europe isn't it? - what I'm actually saying is more like, 'this decision is so important that it should be made on the basis of facts rather than lies, and on the basis of people knowing what they're being asked to vote for rather than just against".
The Brexiters that might be doing this are the ones who joined the Leavers at the last minute as an expedient act of selfishness. Many aren't but are calling for calm as many Remainers (especially the young) are now panicking, kicking up the dust and scaring the 'horses'. Liam Fox is one of these calm voices and of course our wonderful Nigel.
So what are the facts as you see them?
As for your last bit the problem here is that those twats in whatever gave the official leave group to Vote-Leave and not Leave.EU or GO. The other problem is that most of the Commons have pro-EU MPs and the Leave campaigners had/have no governmental power to implement any plans, even if they have some (especially those who have a long standing anti-EU rhetoric). In essence the Leavers are not a single coherent group with one vision but a menagerie of who ever wanted to join their ship. This is why I want Farage and UKIP to take charge of the negotiations with other long standing anti-EU people.
-
Dear Jack,
Nigel :o :o has he put forward a plan, if so can you point me to it, and I am not a conspiracy theory kind of guy but your explanation of the 250 million could well be right, suddenly we have this spare cash :o
Gonnagle.
Of course Nigel has a plan, he's been preaching it for years. All you need to do is read up on what he has been doing for the last 20 years and it'll all become clear. We leave fully from the EU, no half measures. At least get back to the circumstances we were in when we were just in the EEC.
This 250 billion is just printed off (in fact it is just typed out like so £250,000,000 - there that's all they do and buy back the UK bonds to ease those poor little bwankers debts so they can go and gamble it away in the shadow banking markets). It is not backed up by anything actual, of productive worth or assets etc. it is just printed Zimbabwe style and when all this QE finally gets into the public system inflation will hit the roof and further.
-
Then explain why this clown has a mandate to represent the views of Scotland in any discussions?
Just in case you missed it, in the recent Holyrood elections his party didn't contest any constituency seats and got just 2% of the regional votes gaining a massive zero seats, and then of course his pitch on the EU was comprehensively rejected by voters here.
Nigel is not 'the man'.
You Scots forget that the referendum was about the UK leaving the EU not the various constituent parts of it doing so. You seem to have forgotten that we all joined the EU as the UK, you lot didn't join independently of us in 1973. So stop whinge on about it. You are part of the UK and what the people of the UK votes for goes. That's life. You have your own parliament and so some independents, what is wrong?
-
But you presumably voted Leave. Stop trying to pass the buck.
But it was only one vote in 17 million. I mean, that's very small. ;D
-
You Scots forget that the referendum was about the UK leaving the EU not the various constituent parts of it doing so. You seem to have forgotten that we all joined the EU as the UK, you lot didn't join independently of us in 1973. So stop whinge on about it. You are part of the UK and what the people of the UK votes for goes. That's life. You have your own parliament and so some independents, what is wrong?
You must have missed both the 2015 GE results, the recent Holyrood elections and the voting pattern in Scotland just the other day.
Hopefully we won't be part of the UK for much longer, given this madness - but if it does hit the fan, as seems likely, then unlike England & Wales we should manage to extricate ourselves. I just feel sorry for the considerable number of voters in England and Wales who had the sense to vote Remain, and also those Leave voters who were conned by a combination of an incompetent PM and a bunch of self important liars.
-
That would be though because the SNP only campaign in Scotland, and on that basis the SNP do have a mandate to represent Scotland based on Scottish votes. It is quite calling to see the coverage Nigel and Boris get on national media given their irrelevance here in Scotland.
Well that is the fault of the 55% of Scots who wanted to remain.
-
Well that is the fault of the 55% of Scots who wanted to remain.
Indeed it was, and I think they were misled by the so called 'Vow' at the last minute and by being told that if we wanted to stay in the EU we had to stay in the UK - a point forcibly made by Unionists of all political stripes: the irony of which hasn't gone unnoticed here!
But that was then and this is now, and as wee Bob said 'the times they are a-changing' - if this Brexit nonsense is unstoppable then IndyRef2 seems unavoidable, and this time I expect the result will be different.
-
JK,
What you refer to as irony was my answer to your question. All you were doing for the most part was project fear of saying look at this and that it is all falling apart - all this being short term, myopia, of what seems to be going on now. My proposal is about how things will span out in the long term and that being for the better.
No, the irony was that the “running away” is being done by the Brexiters – specifically running away from the huge geopolitical issues that confront us by hiding in the garden shed in the hope that it’ll all go away.
So-called project fear said that certain consequences would follow, and they have – and then some as the likely break up of the Union was, if anything, underplayed. Whether these are short-term issues or the first steps to long term decline, increased risk and levelling out at about the same size economy and diplomatic influence of Slovakia is something neither you nor I know. What I do know is that the risk of this happening is significantly greater than it was a week ago.
The Brexiters that might be doing this are the ones who joined the Leavers at the last minute as an expedient act of selfishness. Many aren't but are calling for calm as many Remainers (especially the young) are now panicking, kicking up the dust and scaring the 'horses'. Liam Fox is one of these calm voices and of course our wonderful Nigel.
Your “wonderful Nigel” is a populist rabble rouser of the worst kind, endlessly looking for people to blame for economic and social ills with no discernible understanding of the real causes of either, let alone of the solutions.
As for young people, what they’re responding to is the grim realisation that the freedoms and opportunities so hard won over recent decades and now treated as commonplace are about to be snatched away by an unholy alliance of little Englander right wing ideologues who will be long gone when it all comes crashing down and it’s left to those very young people to pick up the pieces – assuming there are still any pieces left.
2030 History GSCE Paper 1
1. What went so badly wrong after the 2016 In/Out referendum?
2. Who was to blame?
3. Where are they now?
So what are the facts as you see them?
The same as they were a few posts ago when I told you what they are.
As for your last bit the problem here is that those twats in whatever gave the official leave group to Vote-Leave and not Leave.EU or GO. The other problem is that most of the Commons have pro-EU MPs and the Leave campaigners had/have no governmental power to implement any plans, even if they have some (especially those who have a long standing anti-EU rhetoric). In essence the Leavers are not a single coherent group with one vision but a menagerie of who ever wanted to join their ship. This is why I want Farage and UKIP to take charge of the negotiations with other long standing anti-EU people.
Hideous thought. And the real problem by the way is that just enough people bought the very lies the Brexiters are now frantically rowing back from to swing the referendum the wrong way.
-
Indeed it was, and I think they were misled by the so called 'Vow' at the last minute and by being told that if we wanted to stay in the EU we had to stay in the UK - a point forcibly made by Unionists of all political stripes: the irony of which hasn't gone unnoticed here!
But that was then and this is now, and as wee Bob said 'the times they are a-changing' - if this Brexit nonsense is unstoppable then IndyRef2 seems unavoidable, and this time I expect the result will be different.
I think rUK and Scotland will be better off with a split, the divisive nature of the SNP does little for either country.
-
I think rUK and Scotland will be better off with a split, the divisive nature of the SNP does little for either country.
I agree, although I'm happy to see the SNP push to exit the UK in the current circumstances and I don't see them as decisive - I see the Brexit mob, and especially the Tory/Ukip characters and the current spineless PM as being the toxic element.
-
I agree, although I'm happy to see the SNP push to exit the UK in the current circumstances and I don't see them as decisive - I see the Brexit mob, and especially the Tory/Ukip characters and the current spineless PM as being the toxic element.
I notice that you talk about the 'current spineless PM'. That suggests that other PMs have been spineless. :o I'd suggest that he's less spineless than several we've had since Maggie.
-
I notice that you talk about the 'current spineless PM'. That suggests that other PMs have been spineless. :o I'd suggest that he's less spineless than several we've had since Maggie.
No it doesn't - I suggest you study Russell's Theory of Descriptions since 'current' is a clear reference to, on the context of this discussion, a single instance of a PM since no earlier PMs match this referant (even those who were similarly spineless).
You win today's pedantry prize.
-
Just been watching the News about the rise in racial tensions post referendum. Is anyone else feeling as if this country has become a colder, uglier place all of a sudden now that Farage has got his way?
-
Just been watching the News about the rise in racial tensions post referendum. Is anyone else feeling as if this country has become a colder, uglier place all of a sudden now that Farage has got his way?
Yes, and some of that is people not accepting the results of a democratic vote.
It might have the effect of some remain voters changing their mind, second time round, because they feel it's a form of bullying.
-
Rose,
Yes, and some of that is people not accepting the results of a democratic vote.
When does a democratic vote cease to be a democratic vote when the "winners" have to row back so dramatically on the lies that may well have won it for them?
It might have the effect of some remain voters changing their mind, second time round, because they feel it's a form of bullying.
And it might have the opposite effect if some Brexiters realise the harm their decision is causing.
-
Well I was watching the prime minister this morning on BBC and the government seem to be rallying around and it didn't sound as dire as portrayed on here and in the papers.
If they can be relatively cheerful about it, and accepting of it, so can I.
They want us to pull together.
At the moment we seem to be ok.
Perhaps it won't be that bad.
The Chancellor seemed to think we are in a fairly strong financial position to cope with it.
-
Well I was watching the prime minister this morning on BBC and the government seem to be rallying around and it didn't sound as dire as portrayed on here.
If they can be relatively cheerful about it, and accepting of it, so can I.
They want us to pull together.
At the moment we seem to be ok.
Perhaps it won't be that bad.
They have to look like that to settle the markets.
We are all poorer and the country is sinking.
Fuel prices will be next.
-
Rose,
Well I was watching the prime minister this morning on BBC and the government seem to be rallying around and it didn't sound as dire as portrayed on here.
If they can be relatively cheerful about it, and accepting of it, so can I.
They want us to pull together.
At the moment we seem to be ok.
Perhaps it won't be that bad.
Of course they are - what choice do they have? Markets are tumbling, sterling is tanking, the UK credit rating has dipped (causing increased borrowing costs significantly in excess of our EU membership fees), politics is in meltdown, racial tensions are up etc.
If they said what they actually think - that it's a fucking catastrophe - any or all of these things could get even worse.
Yes, maybe it won't be that bad - but maybe it'll be even worse.
-
Well I can't do anything about it, except deal with things as they come along. No point in worrying myself to a frazzle about what might happen.
Being miserable and blaming people won't make it any better.
-
Well I can't do anything about it, except deal with things as they come along. No point in worrying myself to a frazzle about what might happen.
Being miserable and blaming people won't make it any better.
Burying your head in the sand is one approach I suppose.
Whatever makes you happy.
Just do not dwell on the reality of the situation.
-
Just been watching the News about the rise in racial tensions post referendum. Is anyone else feeling as if this country has become a colder, uglier place all of a sudden now that Farage has got his way?
Way less than to my mind the 70s or the 80s. Do I think some morons behaved criminally, absolutely. But I am with Hope here -i could show a similar rise year on year dependent on a number of factors. It will happen at least 3 times in Glasgow next football season.
Are the things of concern, of course. Do we have enough data, no.
-
Burying your head in the sand is one approach I suppose.
Whatever makes you happy.
Just do not dwell on the reality of the situation.
The reality of the situation is we are ok ATM.
Plus how we go into it, is going to affect the outcome.
Doom and gloomers will find it a self fullfilling prophecy if they don't adopt a more positive attitude.
Most of it is imagination, the pound has gone down before, people have been made redundant before.
We will manage.
Somehow.
Look at it as a potential opportunity.
-
The reality of the situation is we are ok ATM.
No the reality of the situation is that we have, at best, a caretaker PM who is not in a position to do anything to stabilise a very volatile situation.
The reality of the situation is that the £ has plunged against the dollar which is going to have very real affects on the prices we pay for many things that we need for every day living.
The reality of the situation is that there is no fucking plan.
The reality of the situation is that whatever trade agreement we eventually reach with Europe will, for it to be anything half way decent, have to include free movement of labour, and when that reality sinks in with a large minority of the population just stop and think about how they will react.
The reality of the situation is that our economy has shrunk to a size smaller than France's.
The reality of the situation is that if we had gone out to try to wreck our economy we could not have done a better job of it.
Our prospects for the future, the Union, the ability to have a place in the world has been wrecked by a people in search of a mythical, magical England that never fucking existed.
THAT'S THE REALITY.
-
Being miserable isn't going to change anything.
So there is no point in being miserable.
Provided our families are ok, it's only money.
At the end of the day it's people that matter.
Especially our friends & families.
If it had been another world war where our loved ones sons and daughters husbands wives, got called up and risked being killed, that would be a lot worse IMO.
No one is bombing us, we are not having to rescue children trapped in rubble under burning buildings.
No one is imposing national call up.
We are better off than families in WW2.
This should be easier if we all pull together.
Ok so fuel goes up, time to dust off the bike for short journeys.
-
What tablets are you on?
-
Provided our families are ok, it's only money.
I have a feeling you haven't quite grasped the concept of money.
What the nation has done collectively is vote to make ourselves poorer.
Do you think that the people at the top will suffer - or do you think it is the very people who were taken in by spurious promises lies about "£350 million on the NHS, and it won't affect our economy, and we'll get rid of migrants," etc. who will be more affected.
Your name has never been more appropriate. Take the glasses off, please.
-
Rose,
I have a feeling you haven't quite grasped the concept of money.
What the nation has done collectively is vote to make ourselves poorer.
Do you think that the people at the top will suffer - or do you think it is the very people who were taken in by spurious promises lies about "£350 million on the NHS, and it won't affect our economy, and we'll get rid of migrants," etc. who will be more affected.
Your name has never been more appropriate. Take the glasses off, please.
Just to note that it's a common misperception for people to think, "so the markets are tanking. So what - it's got nothing to do with me" when those same people want jobs, have pensions, rely on various benefits etc that are intimately connected to the health of the wider economy.
In other words, it could be that peoples' families are not "ok" at all.
-
But it was only one vote in 17 million. I mean, that's very small. ;D
You are still a party to the decision.
I find it very interesting that you got what you wanted but you are very reluctant to accept the consequences of your decision.
-
I think rUK and Scotland will be better off with a split, the divisive nature of the SNP does little for either country.
The SNP hasn't caused this. The SNP was firmly in the non divisive i.e. Remain camp. If the UK breaks up, the blame lies firmly with Boris Johnson, Michael Gove, Nigel Farage for giving the SNP a way back when they had lost the Scottish independence debate.
-
Yes, and some of that is people not accepting the results of a democratic vote.
Shut the fuck up about that. I have accepted the result, but I'm not happy about it and I can say I'm not happy about it.
Just stop banging on about how I have to pretend this is OK.
-
Provided our families are ok, it's only money.
At the end of the day it's people that matter.
Yes, people without jobs that have moved to Paris or Dublin. People who can't afford fuel for their cars and houses because the cost of oil has effectively risen. People who are being told to pack their bags by racists who think this result has given license to their revolting ideals.
You can't feed a family on the drivel that you are spouting.
-
I know exactly what Rose means. It isn't an "I'm alright Jack" (which I have been accused of), or overly-optimistic/Pollyanna attitude but realistic. We are aware of the implications of the result of the referendum and will do what we can to mitigate the damage that will be more apparent in time, but in the meantime life goes on and we might as well appreciate what we have while we have it. It doesn't mean we don't care. I was unbelievably gutted the morning after when I got up and found out the result (my husband had stayed up to watch on TV but didn't tell me the outcome), but I can't go on being so acutely gutted indefinitely. It doesn't help anyone!
We're not out yet - who knows? Ultimately, we might not be.
-
jeremy,
Shut the fuck up about that. I have accepted the result, but I'm not happy about it and I can say I'm not happy about it.
Just stop banging on about how I have to pretend this is OK.
I'm less sanguine about that. Given how narrow the result, I'm not so sure that we don't risk a historically important result arrived at on the basis of enough people buying enough lies (the very lies that the Brexiters are now rowing back from) to make the difference.
It'll never happen, but I'd run it again with an independent office of fact checkers validating or not the claims from each side.
Failing that, I see that Jeremy Hunt has said that the negotiated package should be voted on too. I don't think he's thought it through because he had no answer to what happens if it's a "no", but if they could negotiate under "Art 50 lite" (copyright: bluehillside) they could then make the choice binary: new package vs pre June 2016 referendum position.
-
Ok I'll repost this.
It sets out how I see it.
Im not pretending it's all ok, it is all ok ATM nothing in my world has changed that I can see.
I'm not laying any guilt trip on you, from my perspective it's the other way round.
You make me feel I ought to be as depressed and miserable as you are, by it all.
My family is relatively healthy, my children haven't been conscripted to fight some war, I'm not having to pull children trapped underneath rubble from bombed out buildings, and my food isn't rationed. Ok so petrol might go up and some in the family might be made redundant. That can happen in the EU.
My life, even if there is some hardship coming, is a lot better than other places in the world.
If I had conditions like families in ww2 or people today living under constant conflict or under Isis rule, I'd be depressed and worried.
As it is, I think I'm extremely lucky.
If I can keep food on the table and my family healthy, that's what really matters.
So that's what I aim to do.
If I have to cut back on things, then I do.
When I was a kid no one whose parents were working class could afford holidays abroad.
We have become used to living like millionaires ( in comparison) if we have to return to that for a while, then so be it.
The problem nowadays is we all expect to do these things, it's normal.
Most of the country chose to return to "the good old days,"which is probably exactly what they are going to get.
In the "good old days" working class people didn't go abroad for their holidays if they were very lucky they got a caravan down in clacton for a week.
They didn't have the latest gadgets because there were no mobile phones, iPads etc.
Today our expectations are raised in what we expect to be able to do.
What might happen when we are trying to sort ourselves out, is we may return to that age where we can't all jet off into the sun and have the lifestyle we think we are entitled to.
IMO we will still have the things that matter, which is caring for our families and we might need to lower our expectations a bit in the lifestyle front, especially if those working have to support those made redundant.
But IMO we' ll chivvy through somehow.
-
jeremy,
I'm less sanguine about that.
Sorry, I didn't mean to give the impression that I am sanguine.
I am pretty angry. If we can find a way out of this mess we need to take it. But I don't think rerunning the referendum until people see sense is going to work.
Failing that, I see that Jeremy Hunt has said that the negotiated package should be voted on too. I don't think he's thought it through because he had no answer to what happens if it's a "no", but if they could negotiate under "Art 50 lite" (copyright: bluehillside) they could then make the choice binary: new package vs pre June 2016 referendum position.
The trouble is we might reject the package offered, in which case we'll be out of the EU with no deal at all because there will be no negotiations before article 50 is triggered and after article 50 is triggered, EU exit is inevitable.
-
I'm not laying any guilt trip on you, from my perspective it's the other way round.
You make me feel I ought to be as depressed and miserable as you are, by it all.
If you're not, you aren't following the news.
-
I'm pragmatic.
That's my approach.
-
This is my last words on this thread and indeed this board for awhile:
Rose you are deluded. There is no return to a mythical England of yesteryear. When are you choosing the 50's? the 60's? the 70's. Think about what they were really like for ordinary people and then try getting anyone to actually go back to that. They won't want to. I'm all for pulling together but not to the extent that I wish everyone was poorer, in worse health and lived in poorer housing. You are actually really, really mad if you believe your own post.
Still it would perhaps ensure we wouldn't have the totally unedifying sight and sound of English football fans chanting: "We're all voting out" at French people. Mind you they got their wish in another way last night.
-
jeremy,
Sorry, I didn't mean to give the impression that I am sanguine.
I am pretty angry. If we can find a way out of this mess we need to take it. But I don't think rerunning the referendum until people see sense is going to work.
Not so much "until they see sense" but rather re-run it with facts that have been independently checked. If then it's still a "no", then so be it. The evident lies and the narrowness of the "win" suggest to me that an historic decision may have been made on false premises, and that worries me a lot.
The trouble is we might reject the package offered, in which case we'll be out of the EU with no deal at all because there will be no negotiations before article 50 is triggered and after article 50 is triggered, EU exit is inevitable.
The idea is that the EU passes emergency legislation for an "Article 50 light" option. The UK would trigger it, and then serious negotiations would occur. Once completed, the package would be put to a vote: "yes" and we adopt it; "no" and we trigger the "real" Art 50.
-
This is my last words on this thread and indeed this board for awhile:
Rose you are deluded. There is no return to a mythical England of yesteryear. When are you choosing the 50's? the 60's? the 70's. Think about what they were really like for ordinary people and then try getting anyone to actually go back to that. They won't want to. I'm all for pulling together but not to the extent that I wish everyone was poorer, in worse health and lived in poorer housing. You are actually really, really mad if you believe your own post.
Still it would perhaps ensure we wouldn't have the totally unedifying sight and sound of English football fans chanting: "We're all voting out" at French people. Mind you they got their wish in another way last night.
Trent, I'm not wishing for it at all.
I'm looking at what a shortage of money could lead to. A return to a time most people couldn't have a package holiday because only the wealthy jetted off into the sun.
I think you have misread my post.
-
I can't win.
If I don't deal with realities, I get told I'm in cloud cookoo land or on tablets, when I do I'm accused of wanting to live in some mythical past age.
Neither is true.
I don't want that.
It's what might happen because of a drop in standards of living.
-
You have been misunderstood Rose, that's quite clear to me. I don't want to repeat what I said above but I completely get what you are saying.
I'm seriously hoping that my 36 year old only offspring has calmed down a bit since we saw him on Saturday. He was so outraged and obsessed, coming up with outlandish and unworkable solutions, I became quite worried; both his father and I were depressed and gutted at the outcome but there was no comparison. He is the sort of person who 'gets on a roll', we know that - I'm wondering how he'll be this week.
-
jeremy,
Not so much "until they see sense" but rather re-run it with facts that have been independently checked. If then it's still a "no", then so be it. The evident lies and the narrowness of the "win" suggest to me that an historic decision may have been made on false premises, and that worries me a lot.
I think the first referendum should have been run on that basis, but it's too late now. In any case, the Leave campaign would have spent a lot of time telling us that the independent office was in the government's pocket. Pretty much every single independent expert came out for Remain anyway and people ignored them.
The idea is that the EU passes emergency legislation for an "Article 50 light" option. The UK would trigger it, and then serious negotiations would occur. Once completed, the package would be put to a vote: "yes" and we adopt it; "no" and we trigger the "real" Art 50.
That requires the cooperation of the other EU states. My impression is that they are in no mood to be nice to us right now.
-
This is my last words on this thread and indeed this board for awhile:
Rose you are deluded. There is no return to a mythical England of yesteryear. When are you choosing the 50's? the 60's? the 70's. Think about what they were really like for ordinary people and then try getting anyone to actually go back to that. They won't want to. I'm all for pulling together but not to the extent that I wish everyone was poorer, in worse health and lived in poorer housing. You are actually really, really mad if you believe your own post.
Still it would perhaps ensure we wouldn't have the totally unedifying sight and sound of English football fans chanting: "We're all voting out" at French people. Mind you they got their wish in another way last night.
I am so very glad Iceland won, a hilarious kick in the teeth for all those nasty England fans who have caused mayhem in France!
-
I'm looking at what a shortage of money could lead to. A return to a time most people couldn't have a package holiday because only the wealthy jetted off into the sun.
For some people, it might lead to not being able to afford a package holiday. For others it might lead to not being able to afford a house.
-
jeremy,
I think the first referendum should have been run on that basis, but it's too late now. In any case, the Leave campaign would have spent a lot of time telling us that the independent office was in the government's pocket. Pretty much every single independent expert came out for Remain anyway and people ignored them.
They did, but there's a difference I think between facts and predictions about outcomes. For sure the latter can be debated but - for example - the net cost of membership vs the investment back into the UK economy are checkable facts. We have an office of budget responsibility now for example, so I'd have thought something similar could be organised for an in/out referendum, maybe staffed by academics, accountants or similar.
That requires the cooperation of the other EU states. My impression is that they are in no mood to be nice to us right now.
Yes, but currently Art 50 is a blunt go/no go option. If they're genuinely concerned at losing the fifth biggest economy on the planet (at least it was last week) and at the potential effect of Brexit on other wavering Member Sates, it'd be in their interests to agree to "Art 50 light" I'd have thought.
-
For some people, it might lead to not being able to afford a package holiday. For others it might lead to not being able to afford a house.
Lots of people couldn't afford to buy a house before Brexit, that's an ongoing and pre existing issue.
Lots of first time buyers have found it difficult, strangely they are predicting with house prices falling, first time buyers might actually benefit ( if they have a stable job and can get the mortgage)
http://www.homesandproperty.co.uk/property-news/brexit-latest-eu-departure-could-help-londons-firsttime-buyers-get-on-the-property-ladder-a102336.html
-
Rose,
Lots of people couldn't afford to buy a house before Brexit, that's an ongoing and pre existing issue.
Yes, but the point rather is whether Brexit will mean that even fewer people will be able to buy a house.
Lots of first time buyers have found it difficult, strangely they are predicting with house prices falling, first time buyers might actually benefit ( if they have a stable job and can get the mortgage)
Just focus on that "if" for a minute.
-
You must have missed both the 2015 GE results, the recent Holyrood elections and the voting pattern in Scotland just the other day.
Hopefully we won't be part of the UK for much longer, given this madness - but if it does hit the fan, as seems likely, then unlike England & Wales we should manage to extricate ourselves. I just feel sorry for the considerable number of voters in England and Wales who had the sense to vote Remain, and also those Leave voters who were conned by a combination of an incompetent PM and a bunch of self important liars.
You think you're going to be OK as an independent country or part of the EU? ;D ;D ;D
You'll end up like Greece, all washed up and your assets cheaply bought from you by the corporate elites. Trump's got his golf course; that's just the start of things.
-
Dear Nigel,
Just fuck the right off will you.
Yours etc,
Blue
It's possible you might alter your opinion a little if you heard the things Nigel actually says instead of the media's edited versions, the BBC edits him in very much the same as Hope does with our posts, a misquote, quoting out of context, etc.
ippy
-
ippy,
It's possible you might alter your opinion a little if you heard the things Nigel actually says instead of the media's edited versions, the BBC edits him in very much the same as Hope does with our posts, a misquote, quoting out of context, etc.
No it isn't. Farage has had a more or less permanent seat on Question Time in particular these last few years and his rabble-rousing, blame foreigners, racist, proto Mosleyite neo-fascism is perfectly clear to anyone with the ears to hear it.
-
JK,
No, the irony was that the “running away” is being done by the Brexiters – specifically running away from the huge geopolitical issues that confront us by hiding in the garden shed in the hope that it’ll all go away.
So-called project fear said that certain consequences would follow, and they have – and then some as the likely break up of the Union was, if anything, underplayed. Whether these are short-term issues or the first steps to long term decline, increased risk and levelling out at about the same size economy and diplomatic influence of Slovakia is something neither you nor I know. What I do know is that the risk of this happening is significantly greater than it was a week ago.
I don't agree that the all the brexiters are running away from the problem.
I don't understand the Slovakia reference. Again I can't agree with your assessment. It is just a dip as we readjust. Just because a graph line is going down doesn't mean it will keep going down. Stiff upper lip old chap! :)
Your “wonderful Nigel” is a populist rabble rouser of the worst kind, endlessly looking for people to blame for economic and social ills with no discernible understanding of the real causes of either, let alone of the solutions.
I find these comments from you of all people very strange. Totally unreasonable and thoughtless. Just mindless bile. He understands them very well which is why he talks total sense. His assessments are informed and well considered.
As for young people, what they’re responding to is the grim realisation that the freedoms and opportunities so hard won over recent decades and now treated as commonplace are about to be snatched away by an unholy alliance of little Englander right wing ideologues who will be long gone when it all comes crashing down and it’s left to those very young people to pick up the pieces – assuming there are still any pieces left.
2030 History GSCE Paper 1
1. What went so badly wrong after the 2016 In/Out referendum?
2. Who was to blame?
3. Where are they now?
Blue this is a joke, yes? You're just playing with us? You can't be serious??
If not, give me details of what you are talking about. What "...freedoms and opportunities so hard won over recent decades and now treated as commonplace are about to be snatched away..."?
Comes crashing down - who says? At least wait and see before you pass judgement on a history which hasn't taken place yet.
The same as they were a few posts ago when I told you what they are.
What you gave was verbiage I meant evidence, hard facts.
-
You are still a party to the decision.
I find it very interesting that you got what you wanted but you are very reluctant to accept the consequences of your decision.
The smiley was to show I was just joking around.
What I'm I reluctant to accept in the outcome of this referendum? Details please.
-
You think you're going to be OK as an independent country or part of the EU? ;D ;D ;D
You'll end up like Greece, all washed up and your assets cheaply bought from you by the corporate elites. Trump's got his golf course; that's just the start of things.
When one is shackled to a sinking ship, and when the captain and crew of said ship are shown to be hapless incompetents who failed to notice the danger from the pirates approaching on the starboard bow (even though the pirates were all wearing 'I am a pirate' hats) then, if the opportunity presents itself, one should seek to undo the shackles.
-
When one is shackled to a sinking ship, and when the captain and crew of said ship are shown to be hapless incompetents who failed to notice the danger from the pirates approaching on the starboard bow (even though the pirates were all wearing 'I am a pirate' hats) then, if the opportunity presents itself, one should seek to undo the shackles.
What you say is the way I see the EU. So in my books you would be jumping from a speedy, healthy ship to one full of holes and listing to one side. We would call out to you "Don't jump!" but if suicide is your fate what can we do?
-
What you say is the way I see the EU. So in my books you would be jumping from a speedy, healthy ship to one full of holes and listing to one side. We would call out to you "Don't jump!" but if suicide is your fate what can we do?
You think the UK right now is a 'speedy, healthy ship' then - I don't think so!
Look at it this evening, in spite of the fact that there is a mess to be cleaned up one group in Westminster are playing musical chairs while some of the others are playing hide and seek.
-
You think the UK right now is a 'speedy, healthy ship' then - I don't think so!
Look at it this evening, in spite of the fact that there is a mess to be cleaned up one group in Westminster are playing musical chairs while some of the others are playing hide and seek.
You're not looking at the bigger long term picture, Gordon. Yes, the crew are fighting amongst themselves to become captain of the ship and what not, and the rudder has been left to fling here and there as we drift, but the rum is free!!! ;D
-
You're not looking at the bigger long term picture, Gordon. Yes, the crew are fighting amongst themselves to become captain of the ship and what not, and the rudder has been left to fling here and there as we drift, but the rum is free!!! ;D
The only 'picture' this reminds me of is a rather tacky old British farce: 'Carry on Brexit perhaps (with Sid James as Boris, Kenneth Williams as Nigel and Kenneth Connor as Hapless Dave).
-
When one is shackled to a sinking ship, and when the captain and crew of said ship are shown to be hapless incompetents who failed to notice the danger from the pirates approaching on the starboard bow (even though the pirates were all wearing 'I am a pirate' hats) then, if the opportunity presents itself, one should seek to undo the shackles.
Are you suggesting we're in the poop.... deck?
-
The only 'picture' this reminds me of is a rather tacky old British farce: 'Carry on Brexit perhaps (with Sid James as Boris, Kenneth Williams as Nigel and Kenneth Connor as Hapless Dave).
Joan Sims as Angela Merkel
-
Check out the prescient lyrics on this.............
http://www.metrolyrics.com/making-plans-for-nigel-lyrics-xtc.html
-
Are you suggesting we're in the poop.... deck?
Up to the gunnels, Vlad.
-
ippy,
No it isn't. Farage has had a more or less permanent seat on Question Time in particular these last few years and his rabble-rousing, blame foreigners, racist, proto Mosleyite neo-fascism is perfectly clear to anyone with the ears to hear it.
We are unlikely to agree on this one.
I've yet to see or hear the perfect politician.
I doubt I 'll ever vote for him if he stands for government, I only voted for him these past few years, because of his anti E U federation stance, I will now miss having any party to vote for as I don't have very much in common with any of them.
ippy
-
Lots of people couldn't afford to buy a house before Brexit, that's an ongoing and pre existing issue.
Yes, but there will now be more people than there were before.
And when I say "can't afford a house", I don't mean "can't afford to buy a house", I mean "can't afford to live in a house".
People are going to be poorer.