Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => Politics & Current Affairs => Topic started by: Bubbles on June 25, 2016, 12:59:16 PM
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A question. ( well lots ;))
This is a hot topic things being as they are ATM.
Do you think that Scotland becoming independent over this issue is healthy for any of us in the uk including Scotland?
There are so many things to think about, should Scotland ever become independant.
Things like what currency they would use.
There are no guarantees they would get into the EU ( although I can't see them being turned down, (although some might be tempted to let them join for the wrong reasons)).
Would this not be better done when the uncertainty of the EU exit has stabilised and things are not as fraught?
Could a vote for Scottish Independence, be as bad a knee jerk reaction, in the same way as the one to leave the EU is, in the first place? Could the Scots make the same mistake the rest of the U.K. has in voting to leave. ( as in the issue influencing the independance vote being more about us leaving the EU)
Could we not stand together until we have sorted out this crisis and are all more able to make changes?
It's also going to be destabilising with Wales and Northern Ireland.
How do others feel?
I obviously don't want Scotland to leave the union, but if they wanted to, is now a good time?
Not all investors in Scotland think Brexit is a bad thing ;)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-36617669
Is it a good idea to look before you leap?
The rest of the U.K. leaped wildly into the unknown......
Is Scotland going to do the same thing with Independance because of leave?
Would it be better to wait, not make the same mistake of voting on a gut reaction?
Your thoughts?
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If Scotland do opt for independence, and remaining in the EU, I suspect a lot of the Welsh and English might be heading north of the border!
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I don"t understand the Scots. I think they should be independent but why on earth would they want to relinquish power to Brussels rather than London? It stinks of English hate. Rather Fritz or Pierre but definitely not John.
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If Scotland do opt for independence, and remaining in the EU, I suspect a lot of the Welsh and English might be heading north of the border!
Why?
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If Scotland do opt for independence, and remaining in the EU, I suspect a lot of the Welsh and English might be heading north of the border!
No they'll just persuade Donald Trump to build a new Hadrians Wall ;) ( he's into walls I hear :D )
Funnily enough he is a heavy investor in Scotland but thinks Brexit is a good thing :)
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Why?
Because they want to stay part of the EU!
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No they'll just persuade Donald Trump to build a new Hadrians Wall ;) ( he's into walls I hear :D )
Funnily enough he is a heavy investor in Scotland but thinks Brexit is a good thing :)
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They could use that nasty guy as part of the foundations! :D
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Because they want to stay part of the EU!
I guess some people like austerity.
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Chris Deerin on a No Voter's perspective
http://tinyurl.com/zmdvqt8
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Dear Rose,
Would it be better to wait, not make the same mistake of voting on a gut reaction?
Yep!! All my chuntering so far has been gut reaction but we have no choice but to wait, so far, and this is only day two it has been bad news.
And you are right, there is lots of questions to be answered, the powers to be must have known Nicola Sturgeons answer to a leave vote, so now we wait for an answer to how they will deal with Scotland asking for another Independence vote.
I now know how I would have felt if Scotland had gained Independence, would Westminster like the EU have asked for a quickie divorce, it is all like a Spike Milligan sketch, what are we going to do now, what are we going to.......................................
One poster on here suggests that we can now trade with Russia, is that a bonus, am I right in thinking that Russia supplies most of our gas, am I right in thinking that most of our gas comes from Europe, should we all wrap up well this winter.
Am I now sounding like a prophet of doom, well when I am left in the dark, not knowing what our future is, I tend to get a little edgy, hopefully Jakswan and Jack knave can cheer me up, maybe we won't need European gas, we will frack the F*** out of our little country, hey! we could start fracking on the banks of Loch Lomond, nobody uses it, well except to admire it glorious beauty but who needs beauty, doomed, doomed, we are all doomed :-\ :-\
Gonnagle.
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Chris Deerin on a No Voter's perspective
http://tinyurl.com/zmdvqt8
Interesting link NS :)
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Dear Sane,
Thank you, that someone else is as bewildered as I am, that someone else shares some of my thoughts helps, I am not alone ;)
Gonnagle.
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And an interesting piece from Andrew McKie
http://m.heraldscotland.com/opinion/14579794.Andrew_McKie__Why_Brexit_will_spell_the_end_for_Ukip/
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Maybe there is a solution where Scotland remains part of the UK but also stays included in the EU. Somewhat like Denmark, where most of Denmark is in the EU but Greenland is not.
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Maybe there is a solution where Scotland remains part of the UK but also stays included in the EU. Somewhat like Denmark, where most of Denmark is in the EU but Greenland is not.
But the Little Englanders will need to put border controls between England and Scotland to control Johnny Foreigner. How could we be one country with a customs post dividing it?
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But the Little Englanders will need to put border controls between England and Scotland to control Johnny Foreigner. How could we be one country with a customs post dividing it?
I agree that it is hard to see how this would work. I've seen a Lib Dem motion supporting it though
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Yes, but not a question of border controls, as we won't have those with Ireland either.
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If Scotland do opt for independence, and remaining in the EU, I suspect a lot of the Welsh and English might be heading north of the border!
Floo, they can't opt to remain in the EU - on two accounts. Firstly, Thursday's vote is a UK decision, regardless of wehat individual elements of the UK voted. Secondly, with their own separatist movements, Spain - at the very least - will veto their accession.
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Floo, they can't opt to remain in the EU - on two accounts. Firstly, Thursday's vote is a UK decision, regardless of wehat individual elements of the UK voted.
The referendum is not legally binding. The UK doesn't have to leave the EU now although it would be political suicide for the next PM to ignore the result. But Scotland could ignore the result. The big problem is actually that, by the time Scotland is independent the UK will no longer be in the EU.
Secondly, with their own separatist movements, Spain - at the very least - will veto their accession.
No they won't. The situation is totally different as compared to the last Scottish Independence referendum.
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The referendum is not legally binding. The UK doesn't have to leave the EU now although it would be political suicide for the next PM to ignore the result. But Scotland could ignore the result. The big problem is actually that, by the time Scotland is independent the UK will no longer be in the EU.
I've pointed that out several times, jeremy. However, since Scotland was a part of the UK at the time of the referendum, whatever the politicians in Westminster decide will be binding on Scotland.
No they won't. The situation is totally different as compared to the last Scottish Independence referendum.
Not if the Scots are seen to have jumped ship whilst the UK are still technically part of the EU - ie sometime within the next 2 years or so.
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-36633244
If Scotland could veto the Brexit vote, GO FOR IT!
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They can't do that.
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I've pointed that out several times, jeremy. However, since Scotland was a part of the UK at the time of the referendum, whatever the politicians in Westminster decide will be binding on Scotland.
Not if the Scots are seen to have jumped ship whilst the UK are still technically part of the EU - ie sometime within the next 2 years or so.
The timetable won't work. There isn't time to organise a Scottish referendum this year or probably next. Then the negotiations to break up the union will take far longer than the ones to leave the EU. By the time Scotland achieves independence we will be well out of the EU
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-36633244
If Scotland could veto the Brexit vote, GO FOR IT!
I note that George Foulkes of all people has just said on Twitter that Labour should support the SNP on this.!
To be honest, I doubt the legislation actually allows for this but it would be interesting
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Dear ad and Jeremyp,
As Nicola Sturgeon kept repeating all morning, there are no rules, uncharted territory, and as she is the only politician of note, not in hiding or being stabbed in the back then the field is wide open for her to explore any avenue she chooses, I heard something about a reverse Greenland issue and the unification of Germany after the wall came down, oh and ad, when you tell a Scotsman person they can't do something, the immediate thought is "oh you bloody well think so".
Gonnagle.
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I've pointed that out several times, jeremy. However, since Scotland was a part of the UK at the time of the referendum, whatever the politicians in Westminster decide will be binding on Scotland.
Not if the Scots are seen to have jumped ship whilst the UK are still technically part of the EU - ie sometime within the next 2 years or so.
A couple of problems.
They haven't sorted out what currency they are going to use yet.
I don't think anyone left in the UK would be happy with them using the pound and the EU might insist they use the Euro, which might put some off voting independance.
Scotland doesn't qualify to join the EU yet, there are other finances to sort out as well as the fact they have to qualify financially as well as already being independant when they apply. Applying wouldn't be instant either.
They can't veto the vote of the rest of the U.K., because if they tried all it would mean is they wouldn't get a voice in the exit.
It would go on without them.
All they can do is to try and negotiate exit terms that are not detrimental to Scotland and keep their voice in it.
Exiting the EU is not reliant on the agreement of Scotland. They are not a sovereign state in their own right.
It's going to happen anyway.
It's going to take them longer than 2 years to leave the UK, then they have to be ready to qualify for the EU.
Which is going to take as long again to join the EU.
They are not a separate country that has a history of trading so they won't have a separate credit rating.
There are as many issues with them joining the EU as a new country with no credit history, as there are them leaving the UK.
It's not impossible to sort out, but it all takes time.
For Scotland to achieve all that is going to take more than 2 years for us to exit.
They can't even apply to the EU until they are independant, even then it may take ages to negotiate something they can accept.
The EU could insist they use the Euro, if only to demonstrate they are truly independant of the U.K. and not some sort of back door for the uk to enjoy privileges of EU membership.
I think they might get a bumpy ride in that I think the EU would insist they use the euro and make the break from the Bank of England and the pound.
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They can't do that.
Are you an expert in British constitutional law now? I sincerely hope they can and do veto.
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A couple of problems.
They haven't sorted out what currency they are going to use yet.
This was the weakness of their case last time. The answer is obvious though. They should join the Euro.
They can't veto the vote of the rest of the U.K., because if they tried all it would mean is they wouldn't get a voice in the exit.
There wouldn't be an exit if Scotland vetoes it. That's what "veto" means.
Exiting the EU is not reliant on the agreement of Scotland. They are not a sovereign state in their own right.
That really doesn't matter. What does matter is British constitutional law. If there is a clause that says we need agreement of all of the devolved parliaments, Scotland can veto Brexit.
It's going to happen anyway.
What Brexit? I think you might be right. With it being obvious that Scotland will leave the UK if the UK leaves the EU, the next PM is going to have a tough time not destroying their career either way.
It's going to take them longer than 2 years to leave the UK, then they have to be ready to qualify for the EU.
Which is going to take as long again to join the EU.
You do understand that the Scottish leadership has already begun the process of joining the EU? They can't do anything official until they achieve independence, of course, but you'll find out that the path has been smoothed over as soon as they achieve independence.
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Dear ad and Jeremyp,
As Nicola Sturgeon kept repeating all morning, there are no rules, uncharted territory, and as she is the only politician of note, not in hiding or being stabbed in the back then the field is wide open for her to explore any avenue she chooses, I heard something about a reverse Greenland issue and the unification of Germany after the wall came down, oh and ad, when you tell a Scotsman person they can't do something, the immediate thought is "oh you bloody well think so".
Gonnagle.
I think Brian Taylor on the Scottish Politics was right on this. Nicola will try everything to try and keep Scotland in without calling a referendum but nothing will work. Neither the reverse Greenland nor the unification models really stretch to this. And I think Nicola is being utterly genuine in admitting that this us the case. That leads to a referendum even if Nicola does not think she will win.
I also think Brian Taylor right that the legislative consent route won't work. But it could hold things up if it has to be investigated
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This was the weakness of their case last time. The answer is obvious though. They should join the Euro.
There wouldn't be an exit if Scotland vetoes it. That's what "veto" means.
That really doesn't matter. What does matter is British constitutional law. If there is a clause that says we need agreement of all of the devolved parliaments, Scotland can veto Brexit.
What Brexit? I think you might be right. With it being obvious that Scotland will leave the UK if the UK leaves the EU, the next PM is going to have a tough time not destroying their career either way.
You do understand that the Scottish leadership has already begun the process of joining the EU? They can't do anything official until they achieve independence, of course, but you'll find out that the path has been smoothed over as soon as they achieve independence.
I know what a veto means Jeremy.
But in this instance the " veto" is toothless.
It's the primeminister that puts forward the application to exit, not ms sturgeon.
Plus they haven't applied for membership at all, not according to Ms Sturgeon this morning.
No one has agreed they can join, they are still looking at what they need to do to join.
They don't qualify ATM. Not just because they are not independant.
I am shocked at what a bad loser you are, grasping at straws, like a drowning man.
It's time you accepted remain lost, it was a democratic vote and over 70% of the population turned out to vote.
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I think Brian Taylor on the Scottish Politics was right on this. Nicola will try everything to try and keep Scotland in without calling a referendum but nothing will work. Neither the reverse Greenland nor the unification models really stretch to this. And I think Nicola is being utterly genuine in admitting that this us the case. That leads to a referendum even if Nicola does not think she will win.
I also think Brian Taylor right that the legislative consent route won't work. But it could hold things up if it has to be investigated
I saw her in an interview this morning and it seems to me she is trying to lessen the impact this leaving the EU will have on Scotland and she said this was the focus of her attention ATM, not an independant Scotland.
Obviously that will raise its head, but I think all the politicians are too busy trying to sort out their own policies ATM, because I don't think they thought it would happen.
I think other people put words in her mouth and make her sound extreme and nutty, she sounded quite reasonable to me.
She is doing what I would expect her to do, trying to protect the interests of people in Scotland who voted remain.
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Dear Rose,
I am a bad loser to and judging by the reception Boris got after the vote me and Jeremy are ( Jeremy and I ) not alone, oh and BTW, you don't happen to know, as Jeremy and Trent put it, "what's the fucking plan" just asking ::)
Gonnagle.
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Dear Rose,
I am a bad loser to and judging by the reception Boris got after the vote me and Jeremy are ( Jeremy and I ) not alone, oh and BTW, you don't happen to know, as Jeremy and Trent put it, "what's the fucking plan" just asking ::)
Gonnagle.
The plan is to " keep calm, and carry on " ;)
The politicians are trying to hammer something together.
Nicola Sturgeon is working on a way of protecting Scottish interests, given how most voted remain.
When the dust has cleared, they'll let us know.
I'm not a bad loser, I'm moving on and thinking we need to move forward now in the best way we can.
I'm waiting to hear their plans too. :)
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I saw her in an interview this morning and it seems to me she is trying to lessen the impact this leaving the EU will have on Scotland and she said this was the focus of her attention ATM, not an independant Scotland.
Obviously that will raise its head, but I think all the politicians are too busy trying to sort out their own policies ATM, because I don't think they thought it would happen.
I think other people put words in her mouth and make her sound extreme and nutty, she sounded quite reasonable to me.
She is doing what I would expect her to do, trying to protect the interests of people in Scotland who voted remain.
. No, she clearly stated that she would do everything to ensure Scotland remains in the EU.
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When the dust has cleared, they'll let us know.
But when will the dust clear, Rose? The earliest will be once the negotiations for our exit have been sorted, but I can only see that as being the end of the beginning; our economy, migration issues, legal system will take years to even get anywhere near where they were before last Thursday's vote. I would like to suggest that the only positive outcome of the vote is that both the Labour and Tory parties will crumble and we will be forced into a form of proportional representation - even if only because I can't see there being a monolithic party like either of these parties in the near future.
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They can't do that.
Time will tell.
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I saw her in an interview this morning and it seems to me she is trying to lessen the impact this leaving the EU will have on Scotland and she said this was the focus of her attention ATM, not an independant Scotland.
I thought she is seeking to impose Scottish opinions on the rest of the UK, by asking for a Scottish Parliament veto of the referendum result.
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I thought she is seeking to impose Scottish opinions on the rest of the UK, by asking for a Scottish Parliament veto of the referendum result.
No, she mentioned it as an option.
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-36633244
If Scotland could veto the Brexit vote, GO FOR IT!
'If' being the pertinent point, Floo. As far as I am aware, the referendum was a UK-wide re3ferendum with its outcome being potentially binding (albeit it not legally so) on all 4 parts of the UK.
Perhaps, if there is a 2nd S.I. referendum, the rest of the UK will be allowed a say, rather than it being restricted to a population who vetoed the idea 20 months ago.
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. No, she clearly stated that she would do everything to ensure Scotland remains in the EU.
No doubt, but she can't overturn a democratic vote of the U.K.
Nor can she stop the prime minister putting forward article 50 when he is ready.
Apparently the EU isn't even looking for a formal letter, just an acknowledgement from the PM
We watched the interview and I think the press are misquoting what she actually said.
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The plan is to " keep calm, and carry on " ;)
That's really not much of a plan. That's probably the plan they had on the Titanic when they found out they were in iceberg infested waters.
The politicians are trying to hammer something together.
Are they? Which ones? Have you got any evidence of that?
As far as I can see, the only politician who has a clear plan is David Cameron and he is the one who lost.
Nicola Sturgeon is working on a way of protecting Scottish interests, given how most voted remain.
Apologies, yes, Nicola Sturgeon also has a plan, I stand corrected.
You know, when she first took over from Alex Salmond, I thought she was a bit of a lightweight, but she's proved to be an immensely able politician and leader.
When the dust has cleared, they'll let us know.
And what if, when the dust has cleared we find we are living in a barren jobless wasteland?
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No doubt, but she can't overturn a democratic vote of the U.K.
Nor can she stop the prime minister putting forward article 50 when he is ready.
She at no point has said about getting a good deal for Scotland outside the EU which us what you stated.
Nor has she said anything about stopping article 50.
The position is that she will look to keep Scotland in the EU by negotiation. Whether this is possible by some reverse Greenland position, I think unlikely but that's an approach. It may be, though I think it unlikely, that the actual legislation to exit (not Article 50) could be subject to legislative consent from the Scottish Parliament. If it was then a veto would apply.
As already expressed I think these approaches will fail and then we end up with indyref2., but as Nicola has been repeatedly saying this Is uncharted waters and she doesn't
, nor does anyone else, know things with certainty. That's why she will consult with those evil things, experts, and with the EU.
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Note Scottish Govt now saying it does not have veto. So it would certainly appear that fox has been pretty comprehensively shot. Just to underline here. This is in general a host of unknown unknowns and options will need to be thought of and looked at.
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Dear Rose,
I am a bad loser to and judging by the reception Boris got after the vote me and Jeremy are ( Jeremy and I ) not alone, oh and BTW, you don't happen to know, as Jeremy and Trent put it, "what's the fucking plan" just asking ::)
Gonnagle.
Just to note, Gonzo, that Faisal Islam was asking a Brexit supporting Tory MP what the plan was and was told that there was no plan amongst the leave organisation and that was no 10s job
https://m.youtube.com/?#/watch?v=thu4I9Wd1Hg
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She at no point has said about getting a good deal for Scotland outside the EU which us what you stated.
Nor has she said anything about stopping article 50.
The position is that she will look to keep Scotland in the EU by negotiation. Whether this is possible by some reverse Greenland position, I think unlikely but that's an approach. It may be, though I think it unlikely, that the actual legislation to exit (not Article 50) could be subject to legislative consent from the Scottish Parliament. If it was then a veto would apply.
As already expressed I think these approaches will fail and then we end up with indyref2., but as Nicola has been repeatedly saying this Is uncharted waters and she doesn't
, nor does anyone else, know things with certainty. That's why she will consult with those evil things, experts, and with the EU.
Outside the EU? I didn't mention outside the EU.
As for the veto...
No I didn't think she said that either, because I watched the interview and if you look up the thread you will see I said she she came across as reasonable.
I also said I thought she had been misquoted by the media who are all reporting she is going to block the Brexit.
It was Jeremy who brought that one up.
Followed by hope.
I wish you would read what I actually said.
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Outside the EU? I didn't mention outside the EU.
As for the veto...
No I didn't think she said that either, because I watched the interview and if you look up the thread you will see I said she she came across as reasonable.
I also said I thought she had been misquoted by the media who are all reporting she is going to block the Brexit.
It was Jeremy who brought that one up.
Followed by hope.
I wish you would read what I actually said.
To quote you
'I saw her in an interview this morning and it seems to me she is trying to lessen the impact this leaving the EU will have on Scotland and she said this was the focus of her attention ATM, not an independant Scotland.'
This talks about dealing with Scotland having left the EU, not trying to stay in..
You have missed the point about the veto\article 50 but since it has been ruled out by the Scottish govt now, the point is moot
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misquoted by the media who are all reporting she is going to block the Brexit.
It was Jeremy who brought that one up.
To quote you
'I saw her in an interview this morning and it seems to me she is trying to lessen the impact this leaving the EU will have on Scotland and she said this was the focus of her attention ATM, not an independant Scotland.'
This talks about dealing with Scotland having left the EU, not trying to stay in.
Yes, she is trying to lessen the negative impact on Scotland because the rest of the U.K. has chosen to leave the EU
Obviously she wants to stay in and is trying to come up with a way of Scotland staying in.
But the bottom line was protecting Scotland.
It wasn't about a second referendum at this point in time.
At the most she is looking for a way to remain in the EU, at the least if she can't do that, she is looking to lessen the impact on Scotland.
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Yes, she is trying to lessen the negative impact on Scotland because the rest of the U.K. has chosen to leave.
Obviously she wants to stay in and is trying to come up with a way of Scotland staying in.
But the bottom line was protecting Scotland.
It wasn't about a second referendum at this point in time.
Thank you for the clarification, but where has she talked about what would happen beyond staying in the EU?
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🌹🍷👍🏻
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One thing that is obvious, to me at least, in that the only senior politician who is both visible and competently addressing the issues that concern her electorate, given the Scottish vote, is our First Minister.
She is also pointing out that we are in a new situation for which there is no precedent and that those who allowed this unnecessary referendum in the first place by putting party before country and who didn't expect they result they got, nor those who did get the result they wanted, seem to have a plan to deal with the outcome: Labour are currently imploding, Tories of whatever leanings are invisible and hopefully someone has put Farage back in the sewer he crawled out of.
The irony of being told in 2014 that if we wanted to stay in the EU we needed to remain in the UK leaves a bitter taste: but for us at least independence from the UK remains a valid option, else 2014 wouldn't have happened. It will be interesting to see whether the various elements of the Westminster mafia get their act together, but I doubt it given the current shambles they have all masterminded, so as this farce plays out I'd imagine that many Scots who voted to stay in the UK my well take a different view when, inevitably, there is a second referendum.
Those I feel sorry for elsewhere in the UK are those in England and Wales (not sure what options NI have) who, as things stand, will be forced to stomach the consequences of this folly - I can well understand why the likes of Jeremy feel angry.
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One thing that is obvious, to me at least, in that the only senior politician who is both visible and competently addressing the issues that concern her electorate, given the Scottish vote, is our First Minister.
But is she really addressing the issues that concern her electorate? Remember, some 38% of the voting electorate voted to leave, and I've yet to hear anything from Nicola that makes me think she cares about them.
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Yes, she is trying to lessen the negative impact on Scotland because the rest of the U.K. has chosen to leave the EU
Sorry, Rose, the referendum was a UK referendum, and the result was to leave. Dismayed by that outcome as I am, this isn't a Scotland v the rest of the UK issue (after all, N. Ireland as a nation also voted to remain). Perhaps she ought to do the honourable thing and resign as First Minister, triggering a new election that will occur in a post-EU context (perhaps the Welsh First Minister ought to, as well).
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Sorry, Rose, the referendum was a UK referendum, and the result was to leave. Dismayed by that outcome as I am, this isn't a Scotland v the rest of the UK issue (after all, N. Ireland as a nation also voted to remain). Perhaps she ought to do the honourable thing and resign as First Minister, triggering a new election that will occur in a post-EU context (perhaps the Welsh First Minister ought to, as well).
Don't be daft: we've just had one! Not only that, the SNP position on the EU is known so why on earth is her position in response to recent events an issue given the clear consensus here where all the electoral areas voted remain.
You're right on one thing in that this was a Uk-wide vote and for many of us here it is the UK that is the problem: separation is a valid option for us now even more so than in 2014.
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But is she really addressing the issues that concern her electorate? Remember, some 38% of the voting electorate voted to leave, and I've yet to hear anything from Nicola that makes me think she cares about them.
So what are you saying here? Sounds to me that you think that politicians elected to represent a constituency only care about the subset of people who supported them and their stated cause(s).
I've seen nothing to think this but presumably you have - so out with it. If you are accusing her of bias that is detectable from deepest Wales then us Scots should be told the details, so over to you.
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Sorry, Rose, the referendum was a UK referendum, and the result was to leave. Dismayed by that outcome as I am, this isn't a Scotland v the rest of the UK issue (after all, N. Ireland as a nation also voted to remain). Perhaps she ought to do the honourable thing and resign as First Minister, triggering a new election that will occur in a post-EU context (perhaps the Welsh First Minister ought to, as well).
It was a uk referendum, and the result was leave.
However because the people in Scotland voted en masse to remain, she feels she needs to look after their interests as best she can.
I don't think she needs to resign, it wouldn't be the honourable thing for her to do.
The honourable thing for her to do is to look after her country best she can.
She is their first Minister, it's what she does, what she is supposed to do.
If Scotland can't avoid coming out, I'm sure she will fight hard to represent and get the best outcome she can for Scotland.
I'm not a supporter for independance, but I do see she has been handed a very difficult situation.
She has to do, what she has to do.
I can't blame her for wanting to represent Scotland because that's what she does ( independance aside for a moment).
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Wow!
'An independent Scotland would be welcome to join the European Union, a senior German lawmaker and ally of Chancellor Angela Merkel has said after Britain's vote to leave the bloc, Reuters reports.
"The EU will still consist of 28 member states, as I expect a new independence referendum in Scotland, which will then be successful," said Gunther Krichbaum, a member of Ms Merkel's party and chairman of the European affairs committee in parliament.
"We should respond quickly to an application for admission from the EU-friendly country."
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Dear Forum,
The plan for this evening, I have a "fucking plan" watch the footie, go for a pint, come home, read a bit and then maybe tomorrow I will wake up and be back in Kansas ;)
Gonnagle.
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Wow!
'An independent Scotland would be welcome to join the European Union, a senior German lawmaker and ally of Chancellor Angela Merkel has said after Britain's vote to leave the bloc, Reuters reports.
"The EU will still consist of 28 member states, as I expect a new independence referendum in Scotland, which will then be successful," said Gunther Krichbaum, a member of Ms Merkel's party and chairman of the European affairs committee in parliament.
"We should respond quickly to an application for admission from the EU-friendly country."
Notice, a German lawmaker, not a Spanish or other nationality that has to contend with serious separatist groups.
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Notice, a German lawmaker, not a Spanish or other nationality that has to contend with serious separatist groups.
By that logic given the new situation, Spain would have refused Czech Republic and Slovakia
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By that logic given the new situation, Spain would have refused Czech Republic and Slovakia
They might well have done, though I seem to remember that that separation was based on rather more violent events than ever the Basques and Catalonians have been involved in.
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I see Nicola is off to talk to Juncker. Well, they certainly have something in common.
I wonder what they are going to talk about?
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They might well have done, though I seem to remember that that separation was based on rather more violent events than ever the Basques and Catalonians have been involved in.
Really? Eta is a terrorist group.
The group was founded in 1959 and later evolved from a group promoting traditional Basque culture to a paramilitary group engaged in a violent campaign of bombing, assassinations and kidnappings in the Spanish Basque country and throughout Spanish territory. Its goal was gaining independence for the Greater Basque Country.[5][6]
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ETA_(separatist_group)
I don't know much about the Catalonian one, except I've only been there about three times and still got told off by a waiter for trying to speak Spanish because " we are not Spanish!, thank you very much " :-[
I was just a holiday maker, If it says Spain on my map..........
It's like telling off someone from abroad because they have asked for something in english in Wales ( Catalonia has its own language like Wales).
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_language
It looks like they have a violent ish group
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terra_Lliure
But I was aware of the sense of " separatist " when I went there, obviously.
People feel very strongly about these things, I think the separatists in Catalonia have taken the Brexit result and the possibility of Scotland being welcomed in as a positive step for them being recognised.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/06/catalan-president-keeps-keen-eye-on-britains-eu-referendum
I know my account is anecdotal, but it's what I found when I went there.
But then we don't tend to like touristy places and go more into the out of the way places and mix with the locals.
Eat in restaurants where the locals go.
Maybe that's why.
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I see Nicola is off to talk to Juncker. Well, they certainly have something in common.
I wonder what they are going to talk about?
One guess?
Our ears should be burning ;)
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One guess?
Our ears should be burning ;)
You can't actually blame her, it makes perfect sense from the Scottish POV if she can get assurances of a rapid and sympathetic response to a possible EU application from an independent Scotland.
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You can't actually blame her, it makes perfect sense from the Scottish POV if she can get assurances of a rapid and sympathetic response to a possible EU application from an independent Scotland.
I would imagine Junker can assure her of nothing, there are rules that need to be applied and conditions that need to be met. What she is doing is comical. They are best friends through their mutual dislike.
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You can't actually blame her, it makes perfect sense from the Scottish POV if she can get assurances of a rapid and sympathetic response to a possible EU application from an independent Scotland.
I don't blame her.
On another thread I put:
What other option does she have? Given that most Scots voted to stay.
Even if you take independance out of the question altogether, I think she still has to do it.
Because she is representing the majority vote in Scotland.
She can't afford to have the same accusation thrown at her that was thrown at Jeremy Corbin, that she was ineffective.
She has to be seen to be pulling out all the stops even if it is hopeless.
I'm curious about the welcoming EU attitude to Scotland though, because I would have thought them recognising and welcoming Scottish independance would be far more encouraging for their own separatist groups than us leaving the EU.
Perhaps they are just too cross with us to recognise that yet.
It might encourage other separatist movements to break away and hope to be recognised and treated the same way.
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I'm curious about the welcoming EU attitude to Scotland though, because I would have thought them recognising and welcoming Scottish independance would be far more encouraging for their own separatist groups than us leaving the EU.
Quite the reverse. The scenario is that the UK leaves the EU so Scotland leaves the UK in order to rejoin the EU. That sends the message to countries like Spain "if you leave the EU, you might lose those separatist regions, just like the UK did. Best thing is therefore not to leave the EU".
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Scotland would have to leave the UK first, trip today is to have a bitch with Junker
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Quite the reverse. The scenario is that the UK leaves the EU so Scotland leaves the UK in order to rejoin the EU. That sends the message to countries like Spain "if you leave the EU, you might lose those separatist regions, just like the UK did. Best thing is therefore not to leave the EU".
Yes I see what you mean :)
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I would imagine Junker can assure her of nothing, there are rules that need to be applied and conditions that need to be met. What she is doing is comical. They are best friends through their mutual dislike.
I think they can devise a positive sounding statement that will give Nicola what she wants.
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Quite the reverse. The scenario is that the UK leaves the EU so Scotland leaves the UK in order to rejoin the EU. That sends the message to countries like Spain "if you leave the EU, you might lose those separatist regions, just like the UK did. Best thing is therefore not to leave the EU".
Ive looked into that a bit more and Scotland might have some problem getting accepted down to that very problem
All in all, Mendez de Vigo claimed, the situation for an independent Scotland would be tenuous and doubtful, with "more 'Ifs' than the Rudyard Kipling poem", he quipped.
José Manuel Barroso, the former commission president, and Herman Van Rompuy, the president of the European Council, have given similar warnings in recent months. Barroso angered members of the Yes campaign when he declared in February that it would be "extremely difficult, if not impossible" for a separate Scotland to join the EU, a viewpoint later supported by Van Rompuy.
The Spanish intervention comes in the wake of an escalation of activism from Catalonia, Spain's own separatist region. Last week 2 million Catalan protesters staged an independence march through the streets of Barcelona, the largest of its kind in European history.
http://europe.newsweek.com/spanish-minister-says-independent-scotland-unlikely-join-eu-or-keep-pound-270937
I know it's an old report but maybe not all member states would vote them in, plus all new states joining would have to accept the Euro.
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It appears that Spain and France say they wont deal with Scotland. Jean Claud Junker has declined to meet with Nicola Sturgeon.
So it looks like that door has been slammed.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-36656980
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I think they can devise a positive sounding statement that will give Nicola what she wants.
I think the wording would be along he lines of 'having her cake and eating it'!!
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It appears that Spain and France say they wont deal with Scotland. Jean Claud Junker has declined to meet with Nicola Sturgeon.
So it looks like that door has been slammed.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-36656980
Saw that too, john. You beat me to posting the link.
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It appears that Spain and France say they wont deal with Scotland. Jean Claud Junker has declined to meet with Nicola Sturgeon.
So it looks like that door has been slammed.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-36656980
So when Cameron said that he would invoke Article 50 immediately, that meant that door had been slammed?
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Saw that too, john. You beat me to posting the link.
Then you are both wrong: she met him today. It was Tusk who declined to meet her, for now anyway.
That the EU won't negotiate with Scotland while we are in the UK is no surprise since they see this as an internal UK issue - and that, hopefully, will change in due course.
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It appears that Spain and France say they wont deal with Scotland. Jean Claud Junker has declined to meet with Nicola Sturgeon.
So it looks like that door has been slammed.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-36656980
So that is a picture of Junker declining to meet her?
You can't just march in with requests for exceptions and special treatment, you need to build allies who will find ways to bring around the others when the time is right.
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It appears that Spain and France say they wont deal with Scotland. Jean Claud Junker has declined to meet with Nicola Sturgeon.
So it looks like that door has been slammed.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-36656980
I interpret that as meaning they are not going to try any short circuit method of keeping Scotland in the EU while it is still part of the UK.
There's no reason why newly independent Scotland couldn't apply for and gain entry into the EU.
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So that is a picture of Junker declining to meet her?
You can't just march in with requests for exceptions and special treatment, you need to build allies who will find ways to bring around the others when the time is right.
Which is what she is doing.
It is quite telling that while Nicola is dealing with the key issue of Brexit in relation to Scotland, and exhibits the vision and leadership we expect in senior politicians, in comparison down in Westminster we see Labour spending all their time arranging a game of musical chairs while the Tories play hide and seek, and they've lost Boris.
I think we're lucky to have Nicola.
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Yes, she's brilliant in comparison with our lot. At the least, she thinks before sounding off :)
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Which is what she is doing.
It is quite telling that while Nicola is dealing with the key issue of Brexit in relation to Scotland, and exhibits the vision and leadership we expect in senior politicians, in comparison down in Westminster we see Labour spending all their time arranging a game of musical chairs while the Tories play hide and seek, and they've lost Boris.
I think we're lucky to have Nicola.
She is the only British political leader to come out of this sorry mess with any degree of credit.
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She is the only British political leader to come out of this sorry mess with any degree of credit.
I don't think Farron, Lucas, or Wood have done badly, just not as well as Nicola. I've never been entirely convinced by her but the interview on the Sunday Politics Scotland was exemplary, even with the incorrect reporting.
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. . .
and they've lost Boris.
If only!
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She is the only British political leader to come out of this sorry mess with any degree of credit.
How ya reckon that?
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and they've lost Boris.
Boris is alive and well and living in Uruguay under the name of Alejandro deBoJo DePfeffelito and Gove is Signor Cohone Sinestro and they have a dog act called Los Wankeros.
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I don't think Farron, Lucas, or Wood have done badly
Would you describe those people as political leaders? I had to Google Farron and I assume Lucas is Caroline Lucas. No idea who this Wood person is.
The Lib Dems, Greens and whoever this Wood person's party is were conspicuous only by their absence in the Referendum campaign.
Update: I figured out it's Leanne Wood, leader of Plaid Cymru. Since I don't live in Wales, I'll withdraw my criticism of her. Perhaps she was at the forefront of campaigning there.
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They all spoke up and campaigned within the limits of their resources and media attention. Saw more of them than of Corbyn!
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No idea who this Wood person is.
The Lib Dems, Greens and whoever this Wood person's party is were conspicuous only by their absence in the Referendum campaign.
As your update indicates - Leanne, leader of Plaid Cymru. Not only did she speak out very vocally for Remain, as did the Lib. Dems and the Greens, she also appeared in the famous 'party leaders' TV debate before the General Election last year - and did pretty well according to the post-event polls.
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She is the only British political leader to come out of this sorry mess with any degree of credit.
To come out of the debacle with any credit, one has to accept that the UK spoke as the UK, not try to make out that its component parts (including Gibraltar) spoke for themselves. I'd put Nicola pretty far down the 'credit' list - though not as far as Corbyn.
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To come out of the debacle with any credit, one has to accept that the UK spoke as the UK, not try to make out that its component parts (including Gibraltar) spoke for themselves.
Some of us don't accept that, since we spoke differently, and see quite clearly that some of the English and Welsh voters have disadvantaged us here in Scotland - and some of us here aren't too pleased about that.
I'd put Nicola pretty far down the 'credit' list - though not as far as Corbyn.
I doubt that will worry her unduly, and you seem to have missed the fact that while Nicola is trying to deal with the main issue (enforced Brexit) the Labour and Tory parties in Westminster seem more preoccupied in playing party games among themselves (musical chairs being the preferred game).
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Some of us don't accept that, since we spoke differently, and see quite clearly that some of the English and Welsh voters have disadvantaged us here in Scotland - and some of us here aren't too pleased about that.
So, are you suggesting that the question wasn't 'Should the UK leave or remain?'
I doubt that will worry her unduly, and you seem to have missed the fact that while Nicola is trying to deal with the main issue (enforced Brexit) the Labour and Tory parties in Westminster seem more preoccupied in playing party games among themselves (musical chairs being the preferred game).
Nicola doesn't have to worry because Scotland doesn't control the UK; it only controls itself, to a degree. Westminster does control the UK. It is therefore imperative that they find the best people to guide us through the morass that the Brexit vote has left the UK, including Scotland and N. Ireland, in - both as Government and Opposition.
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To come out of the debacle with any credit, one has to accept that the UK spoke as the UK,
But the UK didn't speak as the UK. Opinion in Scotland was much more strongly Remain than opinion in England was Leave. Trying to deny this strikes me as fantasy.
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To come out of the debacle with any credit, one has to accept that the UK spoke as the UK, not try to make out that its component parts (including Gibraltar) spoke for themselves. I'd put Nicola pretty far down the 'credit' list - though not as far as Corbyn.
In fact, even in England, opinion was split almost 50/50. It's pretty obvious now that the UK did not speak as one.
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So, are you suggesting that the question wasn't 'Should the UK leave or remain?'
I know what the question was, having read the ballot paper.
Nicola doesn't have to worry because Scotland doesn't control the UK; it only controls itself, to a degree. Westminster does control the UK. It is therefore imperative that they find the best people to guide us through the morass that the Brexit vote has left the UK, including Scotland and N. Ireland, in - both as Government and Opposition.
I think Nicola has plenty of reasons to worry, as do many of us here in Scotland, at us being compromised in this way - which is why many of us feel that we should now abandon the sinking UK ship having been told in 2014 that staying in the UK meant staying in the EU.
Are you seriously suggesting, after this mismanaged disaster, that the 'best people' are to be found in the Tory party: I don't think so, given that they are responsible for allowing this referendum to happen at all.
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The country can never speak as one.
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Simple way to end this. Have another referendum now.
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The country can never speak as one.
Other than North Korea, do any countries?
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Simple way to end this. Have another referendum now.
Way too complex - there is only one way to do it.... Fight.....
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-36673126
Doesn't look pretty, I almost feel sorry for Sturgeon, wait..... phew feeling passed.
Looks like it will have to be on for next summer if at all, but then voting will take place amongst inconclusive EU/UK relationship.
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Oh sorry NS, I thought we were discussing the UK. Are you starting a democracy in North Korea thread?
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Way too complex - there is only one way to do it.... Fight.....
What do expect from this fight?
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-36673126
Doesn't look pretty, I almost feel sorry for Sturgeon, wait..... phew feeling passed.
Looks like it will have to be on for next summer if at all, but then voting will take place amongst inconclusive EU/UK relationship.
I think IndyRef2 is likely.
The timing of it can't be clear as yet though, since at present Brexit hasn't been formally initiated.
Since what happens next is unknown regarding how/when Brexit will be negotiated and what these negotiations will, or won't, include - then I'd imagine that the 'when' depends on how these events play out.
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I think IndyRef2 is likely.
The timing of it can't be clear as yet though, since at present Brexit hasn't been formally initiated.
Since what happens next is unknown regarding how/when Brexit will be negotiated and what these negotiations will, or won't, include - then I'd imagine that the 'when' depends on how these events play out.
It just struck me the other day that Scotland might want to explore the possibility of a "Keltic Federation" with Northern and Southern Ireland?
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It just struck me the other day that Scotland might want to explore the possibility of a "Keltic Federation" with Northern and Southern Ireland?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-36667115
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-36667115
I was aware that there had been calls from Sinn Féin, but I'm guessing that that would not go well with the Unionists. However, some kind of Federal system linking the three countries could potentially be acceptable to all parties?
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Looks like it will have to be on for next summer if at all, but then voting will take place amongst inconclusive EU/UK relationship.
I can't see how there will be time to organise a Scottish Independence referendum for next summer. I think we'd be talking 2018 at the earliest.
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What do expect from this fight?
Harry Hill reference
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Harry Hill reference
No, not a Harry Hill reference. If you don't want to answer a question about your previously expressed opinion that's fine.
Look on the bright side. Had the Scottish indy ref been a yes you would have had to leave the EU anyway. The UK EU referendum has done that for Nicola so one job out of the way, in reverse order, granted, but even so I have no idea why she is so het up when the out folk have done her a favour. Now all she has to do it get another indy ref organised as I am sure the result will be a walk in the park yes. This means that following all the flying around Europe in her jet setting diplomacy, which made her look like a latter day Kissenger, all she will have to do is sign on the dotted line. I am sure all the paperwork will be ready as Junkeret al seem to be tripping over themselves with their new best friend so they can stick one to the English ( the welsh are okay ).
I voted in btw, but hey ho, in lost so now we need to see what happens. You never know, when all the dust settles, the negotiations are complete and the dotted lines are signed we may have a good deal, good enough to make people think again when indyref2 appears.
Hello JeremyP. If your reading this could you check my spelling please as I typed it quite quickly. ta.
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No, not a Harry Hill reference. If you don't want to answer a question about your previously expressed opinion that's fine.
Look on the bright side. Had the Scottish indy ref been a yes you would have had to leave the EU anyway. The UK EU referendum has done that for Nicola so one job out of the way, in reverse order, granted, but even so I have no idea why she is so het up when the out folk have done her a favour. Now all she has to do it get another indy ref organised as I am sure the result will be a walk in the park yes. This means that following all the flying around Europe in her jet setting diplomacy, which made her look like a latter day Kissenger, all she will have to do is sign on the dotted line. I am sure all the paperwork will be ready as Junkeret al seem to be tripping over themselves with their new best friend so they can stick one to the English ( the welsh are okay ).
I voted in btw, but hey ho, in lost so now we need to see what happens. You never know, when all the dust settles, the negotiations are complete and the dotted lines are signed we may have a good deal, good enough to make people think again when indyref2 appears.
Hello JeremyP. If your reading this could you check my spelling please as I typed it quite quickly. ta.
What do you mean not a Harry Hill reference. I made a joke which was a Harry Hill reference in an off hand comment to a post. There was nothing more to it than that so I am baffled as to what you think it has to do with anything else I've said.
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Teresa May in her first PMQ answered a question about Scotland wanting to remain in the EU by saying:
"Interesting how the SNP a couple of years ago were campaigning to leave the UK, which at the time would have meant leaving the EU."
Is this true? Was there any plan before the Scottish referendum for Scotland to join the EU as an independent nation, if they voted to leave the UK?
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Teresa May in her first PMQ answered a question about Scotland wanting to remain in the EU by saying:
"Interesting how the SNP a couple of years ago were campaigning to leave the UK, which at the time would have meant leaving the EU."
Is this true? Was there any plan before the Scottish referendum for Scotland to join the EU as an independent nation, if they voted to leave the UK?
Yes, they wanted to leave the UK and then carry on (re-join) in the EU with the same terms. Salmond claim to have legal advice to this effect that they could do this but when pressed had to admit that it had been made up.
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Is this true? Was there any plan before the Scottish referendum for Scotland to join the EU as an independent nation, if they voted to leave the UK?
Both Salmond and Sturgeon made a huge noise about the fact they wanted to leave the UK but to remain as part of the EU. In their eyes, there would be no need for them to (re)apply for EU membership because they had already been part of an EU member nation.
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TM is being a tad economical with the truth, Spud.
In 2014 we were told by the 'No' mafia that if we wanted to remain in the EU then we really needed to stay in the UK, which no doubt swayed some here since, as the EU referendum result shows, Scotland is pro-EU: I'm sure the irony of recent events won't be lost on you.
Hopefully we'll get another chance - and, if so, this time I think we'll take it.
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Hopefully we'll get another chance - and, if so, this time I think we'll take it.
Yet there is still no guarantee that an application to the EU for mmbership would be granted.
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Yet there is still no guarantee that an application to the EU for mmbership would be granted.
True - but we'd be negotiating without the concrete overcoat of the Brexit-voting UK.
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TM is being a tad economical with the truth, Spud.
In 2014 we were told by the 'No' mafia that if we wanted to remain in the EU then we really needed to stay in the UK, which no doubt swayed some here since, as the EU referendum result shows, Scotland is pro-EU: I'm sure the irony of recent events won't be lost on you.
Hopefully we'll get another chance - and, if so, this time I think we'll take it.
You never know... they wanted the UK to remain in. But would they want an independent Scotland to remain in? That has not been answered yet.
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You never know... they wanted the UK to remain in. But would they want an independent Scotland to remain in? That has not been answered yet.
Yes, it has. They do
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True - but we'd be negotiating without the concrete overcoat of the Brexit-voting UK.
Instead you'll be trying to convince Spain, to vote for you, that by getting independence and then re-joining this wouldn't have any affect on Catalan's drive for independence.
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Instead you'll be trying to convince Spain, to vote for you, that by getting independence and then re-joining this wouldn't have any affect on Catalan's drive for independence.
not rejoining. And maybe their opposition might cause Catalonia to declare UDI
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Yes, it has. They do
Evidence.
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not rejoining. And maybe their opposition might cause Catalonia to declare UDI
If you leave then you have to re-join.
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If you leave then you have to re-join.
indeed, but the intention is not to leave, and since you think the EU us corrupt, you can't batgue that it can't happen
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Evidence.
that the SNP want to stay in Europe? Their last manifesto, the manifesto for the UK election, the white paper for the Scottish referendum, and the position of the FM since the EU referendum. Next?
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indeed, but the intention is not to leave, and since you think the EU us corrupt, you can't batgue that it can't happen
But you (we) have left as per the referendum. And Spain won't allow it.
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that the SNP want to stay in Europe? Their last manifesto, the manifesto for the UK election, the white paper for the Scottish referendum, and the position of the FM since the EU referendum. Next?
Misread it. I thought 'they' were the EU. Would the EU want Scotland to remain in...
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Misread it. I thought 'they' were the EU. Would the EU want Scotland to remain in...
some of them, the latest survey put in line large needs generally. But not sure what the relevance is now.
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Instead you'll be trying to convince Spain, to vote for you, that by getting independence and then re-joining this wouldn't have any affect on Catalan's drive for independence.
Spain would be bought off. Think of all those lovely fishing grounds around Scotland, for example.
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But you (we) have left as per the referendum. And Spain won't allow it.
We haven't left yet. We haven't even triggered the negotiating process yet.
Anyway, I don't think it would be possible for Scotland to stay in the EU and the rest of the UK to leave, at least not without erecting border controls.
What will happen is we leave the EU, Scotland has another referendum that the UK Leavers win and then they apply for membership of the EU. They will get in with some negotiation.
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I don't think Theresa May will allow another referendum. Not for Scotland.
She isn't David Cameron.
We are in this together.
For better or worse.
Scotland is staying where it is, in the UK.
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I don't think Theresa May will allow another referendum. Not for Scotland.
She isn't David Cameron.
We are in this together.
For better or worse.
Scotland is staying where it is, in the UK.
It's in the EU too - so perhaps you need to qualify that last statement
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The UK has EU membership
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The UK has EU membership
Is Scotland in the EU?
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I am not getting into it. I am merely pointing out that the membership of the EU is for the UK.
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I am not getting into it. I am merely pointing out that the membership of the EU is for the UK.
And I was merely pointing out that the status quo is Scotland is the EU - so what is your point?
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Scotland as a sovereign nation does not have EU membership.
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I don't think Theresa May will allow another referendum. Not for Scotland.
She isn't David Cameron.
We are in this together.
For better or worse.
Scotland is staying where it is, in the UK.
Only until we leave.
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Scotland as a sovereign nation does not have EU membership.
As yet.
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Scotland as a sovereign nation does not have EU membership.
Which doesn't impact that arguing for the status quo means accepting that it is currently in.
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Editing as you go eh? Once I've replied as well. tut tut
Gordon agrees with me. Take it up with him.
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Editing as you go eh? Once I've replied as well. tut tut
Gordon agrees with me. Take it up with him.
Not really: my point is simply that Scotland does not have separate EU membership as yet. We currently do for as long as the UK remains a EU member.
Hopefully that state of affairs will change when we leave the UK.
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Editing as you go eh? Once I've replied as well. tut tut
Gordon agrees with me. Take it up with him.
A typo? So what? what do are you implying?
And BTW I am still right about the staus quo - so any point yet?
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Not really: my point is simply that Scotland does not have separate EU membership as yet. We currently do for as long as the UK remains a EU member.
Hopefully that state of affairs will change when we leave the UK.
I would like Derbyshire to become part of Scotland at that point.
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See Gordon's reply. Scotland does not currently have a separate EU membership.
I am implying you changed the context of your post. Status quo was not in the original.
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Editing as you go eh? Once I've replied as well. tut tut
Gordon agrees with me. Take it up with him.
Oh and you seem to have missed that point that Gordon will also agree that Scotland is currently in the EU - as I have been stating. Indeed you seem a tad confused overall. The current status quo is that Scotland is in the UK and the EU so you cannot as Rose was suggesting maintain the status quo simply by remaining in the UK if the UK leaves the EU
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Read #136
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See Gordon's reply. Scotland does not currently have a separate EU membership.
I am implying you changed the context of your post. Status quo was not in the original.
I haven't said it did have seperate EU membership - which is why I've been asking you about your point. You know the bit where I ask you is Scotland in the EU and you refused to answer because ....
I didn't change the context of my post I corrected a typo - it read staus originally. So perhaps you want to retract the idea that the editing was in some way nefarious?
Is Scotland in the EU currently?
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Read #136
Which is correct - Scotland does not have EU membership that is separate from the UK EU membership, as yet.
We are currently subsumed into the UKs membership.
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Read #136
And its relevance to the fact that Scotland is in the EU currently? You do agree that it is? Even though you avoided answering when asked? After all it is a simple fact that Scotland is in the EU currently. Indeed the STATUS QUO is that Scotland is in the EU currently.
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I've checked the EU website and Scotland is not on there as a member state. Check yourself.
http://en.strasbourg-europe.eu/member-states,3322,en.html
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I've checked the EU website and Scotland is not on there as a member state. Check yourself.
http://en.strasbourg-europe.eu/member-states,3322,en.html
But the UK is and for the time being that includes us.
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I've checked the EU website and Scotland is not on there as a member state. Check yourself.
http://en.strasbourg-europe.eu/member-states,3322,en.html
That's nice - who said it was a member state - your pet scarecrow? Scotland is in the EU currently. That's what I said - stop avoiding the fact that Scotland is in the EU currently by suggesting a strawman about what was stated. The status quo is that Scotland is in the EU - care to apologise for the implication that I edited my post to say anything else? Or to deny that the status quo is that Scotland is currently is the EU?
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Only until we leave.
You're not going anywhere, Gordon ;)
Like the wallpaper sticks to the wall
Like the seashore clings to the sea
Like you'll never get rid of your shadow
Frank, you'll never get rid of me
Let all the others fight and fuss
Whatever happens, we've got us.
Me and my shadow
We're closer than pages that stick in a book
We're closer than ripples that play in a brook
Strolling down the avenue
Wherever you find him, you'll find me, just look
Closer than a miser or the bloodhounds to Liza
Me and my shadow
We're closer than smog when it clings to L.A.
We're closer than Bobby is to J.F.K.
Not a soul can bust this team in two
We stick together like glue
And when it's sleeping time
That's when we rise
We start to swing
Swing to the skies
Our clocks don't chime
What a surprise
They ring-a-ding-ding!.................
;D
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Scotland as a sovereign nation does not have EU membership.
Scotland is not currently a sovereign state. That's what the Independence referendum was about.
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that the SNP want to stay in Europe?
No, I meant, do the Scottish people want to stay in the EU as an independent nation, outside the UK, or would they rather stay in the UK despite it leaving the EU. Is that known? Their last manifesto, the manifesto for the UK election, the white paper for the Scottish referendum, and the position of the FM since the EU referendum. Next?
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Spain would be bought off. Think of all those lovely fishing grounds around Scotland, for example.
There's not a fish big enough.
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No, I meant, do the Scottish people want to stay in the EU as an independent nation, outside the UK, or would they rather stay in the UK despite it leaving the EU. Is that known?
We'll find out whenever we get Indyref2: I suspect the former will win the day given the result of the recent EU referendum here in Scotland.
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We'll find out whenever we get Indyref2: I suspect the former will win the day given the result of the recent EU referendum here in Scotland.
By the time they get that vote Britain will be booming and the EU will be rotting away, so I reckon you Scots will be begging to stay with us.
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By the time they get that vote Britain will be booming and the EU will be rotting away, so I reckon you Scots will be begging to stay with us.
Yeah the now 19 people whose contracts effected by Brexit, including the 6 in India, that I told were done today are clapping your lack of understanding and empathy.
Or rather boom, my fucking arse!
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Yeah the now 19 people whose contracts effected by Brexit, including the 6 in India, that I told were done today are clapping your lack of understanding and empathy.
These things happen. You think the EU is a wonderful place? Ask the Greeks. Their youth have an unemployment rate of 50% and the country is being ground down into dust. There democratic rating is up there with Mozambique. It is now law there for all companies regardless of size to pay their taxes a year in advance!!!
Or rather boom, my fucking arse!
Are you going to ban yourself for that rude comment? I see you've banned Sassy. She's a harmless biddy, why are you so mean?
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These things happen. You think the EU is a wonderful place? Ask the Greeks. Their youth have an unemployment rate of 50% and the country is being ground down into dust. There democratic rating is up there with Mozambique. It is now law there for all companies regardless of size to pay their taxes a year in advance!!!
Or rather boom, my fucking arse!
Your vote, your consequence. I await the boom you are claiming
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By the time they get that vote Britain will be booming and the EU will be rotting away,
You do know that those two eventualities are mutually exclusive?
Whatever Britain's status in the future, our economy is so dependent on that of Europe that the end of the EU will be very bad for us.
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These things happen. You think the EU is a wonderful place? Ask the Greeks. Their youth have an unemployment rate of 50% and the country is being ground down into dust.
Do not conflate the EU and the Euro. It's dishonest.
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Your vote, your consequence. I await the boom you are claiming
You voted for the EU - Your stubbornness and connivances to stay with something that is causing millions of people misery, that's your responsibility and consequence.
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You do know that those two eventualities are mutually exclusive?
Whatever Britain's status in the future, our economy is so dependent on that of Europe that the end of the EU will be very bad for us.
These are just relative terms.
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Do not conflate the EU and the Euro. It's dishonest.
Of course they are the same thing. The Euro is part of the Maastricht treaty which is an EU treaty (in fact it has been there from day one). The Euro is also the wet dream of the EU people and is the apotheosis of the political project. IT IS FUCKED. IT IS ALL FUCKED!!!
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Of course they are the same thing. The Euro is part of the Maastricht treaty which is an EU treaty (in fact it has been there from day one). The Euro is also the wet dream of the EU people and is the apotheosis of the political project. IT IS FUCKED. IT IS ALL FUCKED!!!
But they are still not the same thing. One is a currency, the other a political and economic system. Remember that the EU existed for about 10 years before the Euro was introduced.
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Of course they are the same thing.
That is a blatant lie.
Look up which countries are in the Euro and which countries are in the EU. The two lists are not identical.
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You voted for the EU - Your stubbornness and connivances to stay with something that is causing millions of people misery, that's your responsibility and consequence.
so my sacking of 19 people today, nothing to do with the declared effect of Brexit. My vote has no consequence - it didn't win. Thank you for the effect of yours of those 19 people I sacked today
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Scotland is not currently a sovereign state. That's what the Independence referendum was about.
Thank you Jeremy. I learned something today.
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That's nice - who said it was a member state - your pet scarecrow? Scotland is in the EU currently. That's what I said - stop avoiding the fact that Scotland is in the EU currently by suggesting a strawman about what was stated. The status quo is that Scotland is in the EU - care to apologise for the implication that I edited my post to say anything else? Or to deny that the status quo is that Scotland is currently is the EU?
I live in Northumberland. Northumberland is in the UK, the EU, NATO and so on and so forth. Were you really making such a childish observation.
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I live in Northumberland. Northumberland is in the UK, the EU, NATO and so on and so forth. Were you really making such a childish observation.
This isn't that hard. You can equate Northumberland to Scotland and though overall that would be questionable. It doesn't change the idea that Scotland, and indeed Northumberland, is in factually the EU. That in the status quo they both are. And that using the idea that Scotland is in the UK, ignores it being in the EU.at the same time is just foolish. What else can I help with?
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Explain what you mean by status quo.....
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Explain what you mean by status quo.....
The current situation, you know, currently as i've put once or twice in a few posts.
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Seems a bit juvenile to me, pointing such a thing out.
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Seems a bit juvenile to me, pointing such a thing out.
Was Rose's point about Scotland currently being in the UK juvenile?
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Rose thinks Scotland will remain as it is. Not becone independant.
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Rose thinks Scotland will remain as it is. Not becone independant.
In part because that is how it is now. Just as how Scotland is in the EU now.
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Ah well, the whole thing is very pedestrian. Its like a Monty Python sketch.
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Ah well, the whole thing is very pedestrian. Its like a Monty Python sketch.
You mean this isn't the board for an argument?
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You mean this isn't the board for an argument?
No sorry This is abuse!
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But they are still not the same thing. One is a currency, the other a political and economic system. Remember that the EU existed for about 10 years before the Euro was introduced.
So you are saying if the Euro collapses the EU will just carry on as a separate entity? They are part and parcel of the same political project. They are symbiotic, they are joined at the hip.
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That is a blatant lie.
Look up which countries are in the Euro and which countries are in the EU. The two lists are not identical.
That's beside the point. The fact is the Euro or a single currency was there right at the start in the Treaty of Rome. It is part of the utopian EU's big political project that was started then.
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so my sacking of 19 people today, nothing to do with the declared effect of Brexit. My vote has no consequence - it didn't win. Thank you for the effect of yours of those 19 people I sacked today
What's your point? These things happen. Are you saying no one has ever lost their job because of the wonderful EU?
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That's beside the point.
No it isn't.
The fact is the Euro or a single currency was there right at the start in the Treaty of Rome. It is part of the utopian EU's big political project that was started then.
You mean the aspiration was there.
As it happens, only 19 of the EU members use the Euro and some small states not in the EU also use it. The Eurozone and the EU are not the same thing no matter how much frothing at the mouth you do.
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Dear Mixed up and totally confused over Brexit,
It has been suggested that the forum have a debate with only two members and that we could have a separate thread running to discuss the debate.
As this brexit nonsense debacle debate has left us all confused, angry, saddened, I nominate Jeremyp and Jack Knave to go head to head in a friendly ( cough ) debate over the issue.
I have tried to read both the above gentlemen's posts regarding the issue and have found I agree with both posters on certain issues ( yes I am still heavily on the side of Jeremyp ) but if the two posters are willing to put their case in a clear and precise manner I am sure it would help us all to be more informed and educated over the whole issue.
This brexit issue is not going away anytime soon and I know it is a highly charged issue, it has divided the country, but if we could have a civilised ( another cough ) debate between two of our highly respected members over the issue it could help us all understand the issue more clearly.
Of course other posters have posted some cracking posts on the issue so maybe they would like to take up the challenge, or OR!! maybe we could have team efforts, two teams going head to head but with only two nominated posters to voice the debate.
Just a thought ::) ::)
Gonnagle.
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Dear Mixed up and totally confused over Brexit,
It has been suggested that the forum have a debate with only two members and that we could have a separate thread running to discuss the debate.
As this brexit nonsense debacle debate has left us all confused, angry, saddened, I nominate Jeremyp and Jack Knave to go head to head in a friendly ( cough ) debate over the issue.
I have tried to read both the above gentlemen's posts regarding the issue and have found I agree with both posters on certain issues ( yes I am still heavily on the side of Jeremyp ) but if the two posters are willing to put their case in a clear and precise manner I am sure it would help us all to be more informed and educated over the whole issue.
This brexit issue is not going away anytime soon and I know it is a highly charged issue, it has divided the country, but if we could have a civilised ( another cough ) debate between two of our highly respected members over the issue it could help us all understand the issue more clearly.
Of course other posters have posted some cracking posts on the issue so maybe they would like to take up the challenge, or OR!! maybe we could have team efforts, two teams going head to head but with only two nominated posters to voice the debate.
Just a thought ::) ::)
Gonnagle.
I don't think there's any point in Jack Knave and I having a debate, but I am quite happy to write the case for why we should have stayed in the EU and post it. It'll take me a few days to do a proper job though.
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Dear Jeremyp,
I for one would be grateful if you could take the time to do just that, I voted remain but the issue for me has highlighted the fact that we as country allowed the EU to sail on without anyone actually questioning what they were up to, the remain campaigns logo was "remain and Reform" so I am wondering reform what, Jack Knave tells us this was not possible, to corrupt, unable to reform, in fact if I have it right, Jack Knave says the job is still incomplete as he wants to see the whole edifice come crashing down.
I also note that you have started another thread on how to fix the EU, and asked for it to be a civilised debate, which was kind of like something I was looking for.
Gonnagle.
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Dear Jeremyp,
I for one would be grateful if you could take the time to do just that, I voted remain but the issue for me has highlighted the fact that we as country allowed the EU to sail on without anyone actually questioning what they were up to, the remain campaigns logo was "remain and Reform" so I am wondering reform what, Jack Knave tells us this was not possible, to corrupt, unable to reform, in fact if I have it right, Jack Knave says the job is still incomplete as he wants to see the whole edifice come crashing down.
I also note that you have started another thread on how to fix the EU, and asked for it to be a civilised debate, which was kind of like something I was looking for.
Gonnagle.
But who do you think should be doing the questioning, Gonny?
The politicians? They were/are in cohorts with Brussels, who were paying them off in some manner to keep them on board. So we got lies about the EU and were taken deep into it without our consent. The only people flagging this up were UKIP, but they just got all the usual PC abusive rhetoric which was manufactured to try to close the debate down and create a false impression of them - hence Gordon Brown calling Mrs Duffy a bigot and the dog whistle phrase "Racist".
You should have given UKIP more respect and listened to what they were saying.
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The nasty racist UKIP deserves no respect whatsoever, only condemnation!
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I voted remain but the issue for me has highlighted the fact that we as country allowed the EU to sail on without anyone actually questioning what they were up to, ... the remain campaigns logo was "remain and Reform" so I am wondering reform what, Jack Knave tells us this was not possible, to corrupt, unable to reform, in fact if I have it right, Jack Knave says the job is still incomplete as he wants to see the whole edifice come crashing down.
Hi Gonners, I've been a member of 3 or 4 groups that have been campaigning to the reform of the EU for quite some time now. One is a largely UK group; the others are international ones, like Avaaz, 38 degrees and others of that ilk. I get the impression that, unfortunately, too few ordinary citizens of Europe as a whole have appreciated or been aware of their activities.