Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Walt Zingmatilder on June 26, 2016, 02:44:39 PM
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Worst case in a supermarket where someone made a call to get foreigners to fuck off from England and people were quizzed about their nationality.
Polish targeted.
Where's Boris?
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Apparently two East Europeans were asked by a shop assistant whether they needed help packing their bags. Not sure how they took the comment, but the other customers who heard it broke out into a somewhat embarrased laughter.
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Oh that is really horrible, snide (unless the shopkeeper was genuinely asking if they needed help packing, which does happen in big supermarkets). How stupid and ignorant of those people to laugh, even in an embarrassed way. Makes me feel really embarrassed, I want to go and live in a cave.
As for what Vlad posted about the 'eff off' comments in the supermarket, it's quite disgusting.
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I have posted elsewhere about this but partner and I went to IKEA in Kimberley nr Nottingham on Friday and then had an amble around the town centre - the atmosphere was different.
Partner who is Asian felt most uncomfortable with what he has always referred to as 'The Look'. When he muttered that I started to pay attention and there was a definite difference.
My knotted stomach tells me there are hard, nasty times ahead.
Also a woman who works in the care home my Mum lives in went to get milk for the care home from the local shop and was told by a toothless 50 yr old that the borders were shut and that she should fuck off back to where she came from. She was bewildered as although she is black - she was born in Nottingham and lived in St Anns all her life.
Oh Brexiteers just look at the company you keep.
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Trent, that is deeply disturbing. I live a few miles from Eltham which you may have heard of because there was a high profile murder there many years ago - Stephen Lawrence. It has a decent high street and one end of Eltham is still very pleasant. However the area nearer to Eltham Station is a bit of a no-go area. I remember having to go to Eltham Station on the way home from work one day because of train cancellations on my line and when I was walking out of the station I heard puerile racist remarks and jokes made at the expense of a couple of ladies in saris - one of the stupid remarks was made by a little girl, a child of about nine! It was quite an eye opener. I'd heard it was like that around there (the NF and BNP used to march through the high street every now and again), but hadn't witnessed it.
Another thing that happened was in my local Sainsbury a few years ago, in leafy Chislehurst. There were a couple of Muslim boys, wearing traditional dress (their school uniform), who were pupils at the Islamic boarding school. A quite smart, pleasant looking grey haired middle class lady went up to them and asked what went on at their school because people needed to know. They were only about 12 or 13! They didn't know what to say. Then she turned to me, as if I was of like mind, and said the same to me. I was totally gobsmacked and asked her how she'd feel if one of her kids or grandchildren was accosted by someone on their way back from Sunday school
I really hate that sort of thing Trent but it isn't anything new, it has always been the way and is worse in some areas than others.
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Apparently two East Europeans were asked by a shop assistant whether they needed help packing their bags. Not sure how they took the comment, but the other customers who heard it broke out into a somewhat embarrased laughter.
I get asked that every time I go to a supermarket ::)
It sounds like the press making something out of nothing to me.
Ok someone laughed.
Laughing and taking something the wrong way ( playing on words) isn't a crime yet.
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I really hate that sort of thing Trent but it isn't anything new, it has always been the way and is worse in some areas than others.
I know it's not new - but it feels different. And that is a very difficult thing to explain, unless you experience it, because it is so nebulous and difficult to gauge in terms of what is actually going on.
But - I would put money on an upsurge of racist incidents as a result of this outcome.
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I think you are right Trent.
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I haven't noticed anything yet and some of the people I know and work with come from various ethnic groups.
I'll keep my eyes and ears open though.
Everything seems as it was.
You sure this isn't just a smear campaign against people who voted leave?
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Oh that is really horrible, snide (unless the shopkeeper was genuinely asking if they needed help packing, which does happen in big supermarkets). How stupid and ignorant of those people to laugh, even in an embarrassed way. Makes me feel really embarrassed, I want to go and live in a cave.
As for what Vlad posted about the 'eff off' comments in the supermarket, it's quite disgusting.
Hi Brownie, it was at a supermarket so the check-out assistant simply asked what she asked every customer. Not sure that she realised the significance - it apparently happened some time late Friday morning. One of my mates was in the shop at the time.
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I haven't noticed anything yet and some of the people I know and work with come from various ethnic groups.
I'll keep my eyes and ears open though.
Everything seems as it was.
You sure this isn't just a smear campaign against people who voted leave?
Presumably you think my partner and I are either lying or mistaken. Thanks Rose.
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Any one who knows Cardiff will have heard of Butetown. Its in the docks area and had a predominantly Somali population for many years before the gentrification and modernisation of the Bay area. It now has a more diverse population, but still largely immigrant - many unemployed. On Friday afternoon, I was walking through the area on my way back to Cardiff Central Rail Station from work in County Hall in the Bay. I came across 3 lads in their mid-twenties who asked me which way I'd voted 'yesterday'. I answered by saying that I felt that the result had been a disaster - without actually saying which I had voted, lest it get heated. Instead, what ensued was a wonderful conversation between a middle-aged white bloke, a Somali , an Iraqi and a Yemeni. I felt so much more comfortable (and encouraged by their ability to talk sensibly) having that discussion than I would have felt had it been with 3 white lads of the same age in the neighbouring area of Grangetown.
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The Brexit stance has encouraged some very unpleasant racism, which doesn't show Britain up in a good light.
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Here you go Rose. Make your own mind up.
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/eu-referendum-racism_uk_576fe161e4b08d2c56396075?745i5vqfvfs35l8fr
Then you might reconsider your accusation.
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Presumably you think my partner and I are either lying or mistaken. Thanks Rose.
No I don't.
Racism happens without Brexit.
Plus I think the uncertainty of what is going to happen is also felt by Europeans established here plus those of a different ethnic background.
It makes people insecure.
Also if people are feeling vunerable because of all this uncertainty a look can be taken in a way that it wouldn't have been before Brexit.
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Racism happens without Brexit.
That is true, Rose, but the last few weeks seems to have seen a greater number of incidents than previously. Whether it is merely Brexist, or in response to irresponsible media coverage of last year's refugee crisis - or something else, I haven't been able to trace.
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No I don't.
Racism happens without Brexit.
Plus I think the uncertainty of what is going to happen is also felt by Europeans established here plus those of a different ethnic background.
It makes people insecure.
Also if people are feeling vunerable because of all this uncertainty a look can be taken in a way that it wouldn't have been before Brexit.
I refer you to the Huff post link. You are incorrect. It is linked.
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Here you go Rose. Make your own mind up.
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/eu-referendum-racism_uk_576fe161e4b08d2c56396075?745i5vqfvfs35l8fr
Then you might reconsider your accusation.
I'm not about to label all "leave" supporters as racists.
Which appears to be what you are implying.
Racists have always existed in the uk.
it would be better to get together with the leave campaigners to fight racism, just like we would before the issue of Brexit.
Labelling Brexit supporters as racists and blaming them for incidences isn't going to help anyone.
The hatred from the remain supporters, towards the leave supporters is scary IMO.
Making racist comments is against the law, racists need to realise that.
Hatred and scapegoating people because they voted leave, is as nasty and undesirable as racism, IMO.
If I hear racism I will report it.
If I hear hatred towards a group of people purely because they voted for leave, I will see that in the same light as an act of racism and just as contemptible.
This country is in for a bumpy ride because there are too many divisions, and hatred in it ATM.
That's coming from a whole variety of sources.
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Which appears to be what you are implying.
Please withdraw that - I never said nor implied that. I asked Brexiteers to look at the company they keep.
If I have a friend who hangs around with thieves - I would ask him to be careful over what he gets involved in.
On a larger scale that applies to leavers.
Have you looked at the link yet. Real blood, real people. NICE.
To put it another way:
Not all leavers are racist - but all racists are leavers.
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I agree with Trent that not all leavers are racist but all racists are leavers. I also believe that it isn't always easy for people to see and hear subtle racist talk or attitude if they are not affected; it is exactly the same with Jewish people who talk about the rise of antisemitism. They pick up on it, non Jewish people frequently don't. I've even come across it with Catholics, particularly on forums, who know people are being anti-Catholic but other non-Catholics can't see it (despite it sometimes being blooming obvious!).
Yes there has always been racism, bigotry of all kinds, but I accept that it has changed recently, as the referendum date grew nearer it was palpable.
I didn't realise that Hope knew the people involved in the supermarket incident and it sounds as though the assistant was saying what is usually said to customers and the onlookers giggled inappropriately. (Yes, Hope, I know Cardiff and Bute town, I lived there for six months in the 1970s and liked it, cosmopolitan and easy going.)
Trent, Rose isn't accusing you or your partner of lying, she just doesn't see things in quite the same way. We can't stand in someone else's shoes.
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http://metro.co.uk/2016/06/27/what-can-you-do-to-help-stop-this-new-wave-of-racism-5968775/
Seems there is.
Even a Polish child ending up with a laminated note saying " Polish vermin go home"
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/video_and_audio/headlines/36643786
My apologies Trent.
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Acceped Rose :)
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57% increase over the last 4 days, compared with the same 4 days of last year. However, only 85 cases reported in that time slot.
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57% increase over the last 4 days, compared with the same 4 days of last year. However, only 85 cases reported in that time slot.
http://gu.com/p/4mm35
That's 85 people insulted about the colour of their skin, the clothes they're wearing or for visiting a place of worship. That's 85 areas abused with cards saying "No polish vermin" and "Muslims must leave this city or die".
That's 85 hate crimes against our fellow human beings. There's no "only" about it. It's 85 too many.
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/video_and_audio/headlines/36643794
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http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/bbc-reporter-becomes-latest-victim-of-post-brexit-racist-abuse/ar-AAhFMOA?li=BBoPWjQ&ocid=mailsignout
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I'm not about to label all "leave" supporters as racists.
Nor would I, but that doesn't mean that some are.
Labelling Brexit supporters as racists and blaming them for incidences isn't going to help anyone.
Brexit has emboldened racists and legitimised racism.
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It says in the news today that racist incidents are up by 57%, I don't know how accurate that is but any increase is a huge step backwards for this society.
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Dear World gone crazy,
It was reported on the Jeremy Vine show that one idiot actually thought voting leave meant that all foreigners had to leave, I think Berational has a point, pass an exam before you are allowed to vote. :o
Gonnagle.
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He's not alone in saying that, my son said much the same on Saturday (other things too - at great length :o). He said there should be a questionnaire and if the questions were not answered correctly, the person should not be allowed to vote. People must know exactly what they are voting for. I can see what he and BeR mean but it would be very difficult to put into practice and there would be all sorts of talk about infringement of human rights. So I sit on the fence on that one though what you have said, Gonnagle, about someone thinking 'Leave' meant 'All foreigners leave', beggers belief.
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The Brexit stance has encouraged some very unpleasant racism, which doesn't show Britain up in a good light.
This is just not true Floo, the remainers are no better than the leave lot they've both tried their best to smear each other including about racism, the Brexit lot, like me, are no more racist than any other average group of our population, you'll always get a few of these very sad people even long after getting away from a federal Europe.
The only problem the Brexit has is with immigration is the sheer numbers of immigrants, not where they come from, or what part of the Dulux colour chart they represent.
Have you read anything or know about the Ausi system; it's to do with age, family reunion, can you speak with an acceptable standard of English, if you can't work can you support yourself and say they need air conditioning engineers? you're an air conditioning engineer? The door opens, come in and pro rata any other required skill, ex-criminals are unable to settle.
I'm sure there are more qualifications I've missed, but my description of how the Ausis select is near enough to how it is and each one of the above qualifications are awarded points, if the applicant acquires enough points, in you come, their selection procedure has nothing to with the race of the applicant.
ippy
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Just out of interest people on the internet have come up with the idea of wearing a safety pin to show solidarity with immigrants so the don't feel so alone.
http://indy100.independent.co.uk/article/safetypin-the-simple-way-you-can-show-solidarity-with-the-uks-foreignborn-population--ZJzeRPz6kHW
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Just out of interest people on the internet have come up with the idea of wearing a safety pin to show solidarity with immigrants so the don't feel so alone.
http://indy100.independent.co.uk/article/safetypin-the-simple-way-you-can-show-solidarity-with-the-uks-foreignborn-population--ZJzeRPz6kHW
Very punk Rose!
I like it, I hope it catches on and will wear a safety pin when I go out.
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This is just not true Floo, the remainers are no better than the leave lot they've both tried their best to smear each other including about racism, the Brexit lot, like me, are no more racist than any other average group of our population, you'll always get a few of these very sad people even long after getting away from a federal Europe.
The only problem the Brexit has is with immigration is the sheer numbers of immigrants, not where they come from, or what part of the Dulux colour chart they represent.
Have you read anything or know about the Ausi system; it's to do with age, family reunion, can you speak with an acceptable standard of English, if you can't work can you support yourself and say they need air conditioning engineers? you're an air conditioning engineer? The door opens, come in and pro rata any other required skill, ex-criminals are unable to settle.
I'm sure there are more qualifications I've missed, but my description of how the Ausis select is near enough to how it is and each one of the above qualifications are awarded points, if the applicant acquires enough points, in you come, their selection procedure has nothing to with the race of the applicant.
ippy
Sadly, it is clear that you are wrong. The saying is that not all Leave voters are racist, but all racists are Leave voters.
It seems that many people have taken the result of the referendum as license to be racist. I doubt if any of them were Remain voters.
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Dear World gone crazy,
It was reported on the Jeremy Vine show that one idiot actually thought voting leave meant that all foreigners had to leave, I think Berational has a point, pass an exam before you are allowed to vote. :o
Gonnagle.
I sometimes get a Keith feeling that the sooner humans become extinct the better for this planet. :(
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I sometimes get a Keith feeling that the sooner humans become extinct the better for this planet. :(
That is depressing, from you Len.
:(
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Sadly, it is clear that you are wrong. The saying is that not all Leave voters are racist, but all racists are Leave voters.
It seems that many people have taken the result of the referendum as license to be racist. I doubt if any of them were Remain voters.
It's hardly my fault or the fault of the mainly decent Brexiters that these sad racist people are about but if it is as you seem to think it is, thank goodness they have arrived at, IMO, the right decission, the sheer numbers and federation were the main issues for me.
ippy
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Reading a Sunday Times article with the headline, "Far right calls for 'white jihad'". It concerns a group called: "National Action" who are spreading their views on Twitter, Youtube and FB. There is a picture of them demonstrating with banner saying, "Refugees not welcome
Hiter was right". The group posted on Twitter a picture of Thomas Mair, murderer of Jo Cox, with the caption, "#Vote Leave, don't let this man's sacrifice go in vain".
There is an associated group called: North West Infidels. Here is a link to their Facebook account:
https://www.facebook.com/BoltonNorthWestInfidels/
Very sinister.
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Reading a Sunday Times article with the headline, "Far right calls for 'white jihad'". It concerns a group called: "National Action" who are spreading their views on Twitter, Youtube and FB. There is a picture of them demonstrating with banner saying, "Refugees not welcome
Hiter was right". The group posted on Twitter a picture of Thomas Mair, murderer of Jo Cox, with the caption, "#Vote Leave, don't let this man's sacrifice go in vain".
There is an associated group called: North West Infidels. Here is a link to their Facebook account:
https://www.facebook.com/BoltonNorthWestInfidels/
Very sinister.
Yes, it's a Nazi based thing if it uses or supports combat18.
18 stands for letters of the alphabet A and H ( Adolf Hitler)
They have been around long before Brexit though and are not really a result of Brexit.
The Facebook page you brought up shows stuff about Lee Rigby so some of it is old.
There seems to be a link with Ulster combat 18.
What is happening is the press are now reporting on them, but they have been there for years, pumping out the same racist stuff. White supremacy and white Jihad. The Muslims taking over by stealth and other rants.
Nothing has changed there, except people are now being made aware of them.
It's like when papers seem to focus on dog bites, suddenly there are lots of them. It's because the media has chosen to focus on that particular area.
However given the vote to leave Brexit they may also be choosing to be more visible.
Which is worrying.
I wish the Labour Party would sort itself out, it seems to be writing itself out of the next election.
It's a really bad time.
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Yeah I k :(now that Rose but it appears they have reappeared because of Brexit. Remember Combat 18 very well, they recorded a single would you believe! I dunno who bought it.
(I echo what you said to Len :(, maybe he is having an off day, I hope so, usually get the impression his life in Spain has been pretty good.)
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It's hardly my fault or the fault of the mainly decent Brexiters that these sad racist people are about but if it is as you seem to think it is, thank goodness they have arrived at, IMO, the right decission, the sheer numbers and federation were the main issues for me.
ippy
The racists think the Brexit vote has legitimised their cause.
What do you mean by the "sheer numbers"? The actual numbers of immigrants coming here (even less the ones that we can now stop) are not a huge deal.
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The racists think the Brexit vote has legitimised their cause.
What do you mean by the "sheer numbers"? The actual numbers of immigrants coming here (even less the ones that we can now stop) are not a huge deal.
Obviously they are for some people.
That's partly why we are in this mess, no one took those peoples feelings seriously.
It backfired. They voted leave.
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All it needs is for large sections of the population to feel they are being hoodwinked, ignored again and Brexit isn't happening and they will be voting for Nigel Farage.
That's why David Cameron and the Gov IMO is so careful about saying the will if the people will be followed.
It's not democratic to not put Brexit through now.
People will be angry if they feel they voted for something and others have sneakily crushed it.
Think if Scotland had voted democratically for independance and then the gov delayed and found reasons not to do it.
Same thing.
People will think they have been cheated.
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Obviously they are for some people.
That's partly why we are in this mess, no one took those peoples feelings seriously.
It backfired. They voted leave.
Clearly.
Nobody actually took the time to explain to people what the immigration figures really are and what the long term consequences of them will be.
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It's not democratic to not put Brexit through now.
Democracy is about more than just having a vote.
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Democracy is about more than just having a vote.
No it really isn't.
It's about having a fair vote and following the wishes of the majority.
If you think it isn't, then if Scotland goes for another referendum and votes to leave the UK, we can block them by telling them Democracy is more than just having a vote.
Think they will be convinced?
Because I don't.
It's the same thing.
It's just you don't agree with the leave campaign.
Well I don't agree with an independant Scotland, but I don't think I'd get away with pulling that one.
Do you?
I think Scotland leaving the uk us every bit as damaging to the uk as leaving the EU is and I feel about it pretty much as you do about the leave campaign.
But I do know what democracy is, and I don't think it's right to pull that one on Scotland either.
George Osborned summed up when he said " my country, right or wrong"
I think our government have taken that stance too.
David Cameron definately.
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Rose,
So you agree that London could vote to leave the UK as well, as that too would be democratic.
The majority view does not always prevail, other wise the death penalty might well be in place.
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Clearly.
Nobody actually took the time to explain to people what the immigration figures really are and what the long term consequences of them will be.
Jeremy people go by what they experience.
Even I have noticed that when I visit my local supermarket the language around me isn't English. It's like being on holiday abroad.
As it happens I like the different cultures and we have a very multicultural atmosphere where I live with whole communities of Irish, Eastern European, Somalian and various communities.
Even the people I work with come from many different countries, only about 50% are English. If that.
I like it, because that's me.
But some find it threatening and I know people who voted leave because they felt it was out of hand.
I've discussed it.
Trying to make out its not a huge problem for them, or they are imagining it, makes it worse.
For years now people have been complaining that London has been taken over by foreigners, because when they go they don't meet very many English people.
I see it, it's a shame because I like different cultures.
But ignoring how and why people voted is making it worse.
I don't want people voting UKIP in, because they don't trust the other parties to listen to them.
I don't think the conservatives do either, which I think is why they have finally acknowledged the feeling in the uk and are trying to follow the wishes of the majority and squashing talk of a second referendum.
I think we have to be very careful not to empower UKIP.
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Rose,
So you agree that London could vote to leave the UK as well, as that too would be democratic.
The majority view does not always prevail, other wise the death penalty might well be in place.
Ok
Provided we accept that Scotland cannot have independance because it is damaging to the rest of the Union no matter what majority of votes they have.
By the same rules, we cannot leave the EU because of the potential damage to us and them regardless of the majority vote.
I'd go for that! I voted remain. If I was only considering my POV.
But Scotland would have to give up the idea of independence. Because I'm applying the same rule.
See, I don't think Scotland is prepared to give up independance or the leave voters their democratically held referendum.
The problem too, is, you are disregarding a majority choice and doing what you think is best for them.
Which isn't democratic, and is a bit patronising.
I mean at the end of the day many leave voters are prepared to go through some hardship to have this country independant of the EU.
In the same way some Scots are prepared to struggle and have some hardship to have independance from the UK.
Have they both got the right to do that? If the majority voted yes. Can we judge if it's worth it to them?
Would I be patronising in thinking I had the right to stand in their way?
See I have this awful feeling I would be.
That's why if the majority vote they want something, even if you think they are wrong, sometimes you have to go with it.
Pick up the pieces if necessary.
I don't agree with Scotland becoming independant, I'm really against it.
But I'd think very long and hard about my right to block a majority vote of scots, even if it did harm the rest of the U.K. Because I think it's a bit patronising.
" oh I'm only doing it for your own good" sort of thing.
Can't help it!
On one level I can say ...go for it..... On the other it's not really fair and you are imposing your own views on a majority.
For me to do that to the "leave" voters or " Scotland" it's more dictatorship than democracy.
When should you ignore/block a majority vote for their own good ( or collective good)?
The answer to that is way too subjective.
:o
Whatever it is, it isn't democracy :(
People are ignored, no doubt.
We justify it for many reasons, like they are small, their location, how long they have been fighting for recognition, how different they are.
But ignoring the whole majority vote of the U.K.?
That's more dictatorship.
I can see that Scotland thinks they are being dictated to, but the popular stance is they are part of the U.K.
Therefore the overall result is the one that matters..
What a terrible mess!
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On the other hand, London has a low UKIP vote, and voted mainly Remain, in my area, about 70%. Also, areas with low immigration tended to vote Leave. It's almost as if actual acquaintance with immigrants removes the fear and prejudice.
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It does indeed wigginhall, proper contact, not just seeing people on the streets or in shops but knowing them, eg working with them or being friends with the parents of your children.
In my area of London the majority voted for Remain but only by a small margin. That doesn't surprise me at all.
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The racists think the Brexit vote has legitimised their cause.
What do you mean by the "sheer numbers"? The actual numbers of immigrants coming here (even less the ones that we can now stop) are not a huge deal.
Well that's up to the racists and I suppose there's no such thing as a racists in the remain camp?
I mean the sheer numbers, I thought that was straightforward enough, unless there's some sort of determination to not want to understand involved?
I'm just genuinely glad we are leaving the EU; now the original EEC had it remained so, I couldn't see anything particularly wrong with that, the ever closer union was sneaked in behind the back door, we didn't have a say about that.
I really don't think we should have stayed in the EU and I can't see that I will be changing my mind about that, I'n not your enemy we just don't agree about this decision that has been taken.
ippy
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It does indeed wigginhall, proper contact, not just seeing people on the streets or in shops but knowing them, eg working with them or being friends with the parents of your children.
In my area of London the majority voted for Remain but only by a small margin. That doesn't surprise me at all.
UKIP is strongest where immigration is lowest, mainly. I suppose it shows the power of fear and prejudice.
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On the other hand, London has a low UKIP vote, and voted mainly Remain, in my area, about 70%. Also, areas with low immigration tended to vote Leave. It's almost as if actual acquaintance with immigrants removes the fear and prejudice.
Sometimes it does, but not always.
Depends on the individual I'd say.
I like all the cultural differences where I am, but it still voted with a leave majority along with many other areas not in the countryside.
I think London has a different attitude to the rest of the country, probably because it's the capital.
One of the worst places is Luton, and they have lots of different ethnic groups.
It's where the EDL started. Luton seems to have a lot of racists in it.
Maybe that's just my impression.
Lots of people I have met from Luton who are English have complained about the expanding presence of foreigners.
Perhaps I'm wrong though, it's just my impression having moved here ( not Luton but commuting distance) from the west country 15 years ago.
Otherwise I might agree with you, Wigginhall
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You are right about Luton, Rose. There is a large Muslim population and many people complain about the call to prayer from the Mosque, I've even seen posts from UKIP voters who live in Luton, who are Christian, who complain bitterly about it and about 'their' high street being full of 'Pakistanis'. Yet Luton is a big place, with plenty of areas that aren't full of Muslims who seem to populate a small, dense area of the town. Luton is a pleasant place with lots of countryside and good housing. The EDL make lots of noise unfortunately.
I suppose Luton could be compared to Tower Hamlets in London, without the countryside of course, which is known from the media as a Muslim area. However, move two or three streets away from that little pocket and it's a different world. Canary Wharf for a start and it is a very expensive borough property-wise.
It's beyond me why we can't all get along.
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Here's some good news from Dorset anyway.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-dorset-36649639
Nice gesture :)
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Very nice indeed.
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No it really isn't.
Yes it is.
Democracy cannot function in a vacuum. It needs information and it needs debate. Trying to shut down the argument by saying "we've had the vote" is anti-democratic.
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Saying that we should just accept the referendum vote is actually psychologically absurd and dangerous. People need to mourn, in different ways, about different things. I won't spell out all the classic stages of mourning, but they certainly include rage, denial, grief, bargaining, and so on. We probably have to go through this for years, as with a divorce or a bereavement. People don't just 'get over it'.
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I agree that it is like a bereavement, so many are mourning. I've not come across such collective grief over a political issue before but there is something comforting about so many feeling the same.
I put that badly! I mean so many in sympathy, not that it's comforting for other people to be unhappy.
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I agree that it is like a bereavement, so many are mourning. I've not come across such collective grief over a political issue before but there is something comforting about so many feeling the same.
But a lot of mourning is not about grief. There is often a lot of anger and denial, and then all the other stuff, bargaining, guilt, blah blah blah.
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Yes there is a tremendous amount of that too wigginhall. Btw my previous post was badly worded, I've amended it (don't know that it's any better but hopefully others will know what I meant).
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Certainly, with divorce and bereavement, there is often tons of anger, guilt, denial, as well as guilt. And they're not really stages. We used to reckon it would take 2 years with a serious bereavement, often more. So there's plenty more to come.
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UKIP is strongest where immigration is lowest, mainly. I suppose it shows the power of fear and prejudice.
And I suppose has nothing to do with the sheer numbers of immigrants?
It looks to me as if it has more to do with having to deal with the logic of being to able to keep immigration within the bounds of a manageable flow of numbers, rather than fear and as for prejudice this doesn 't amount to very signifigant numbers of people these days when compared to just so very few years ago.
ippy