Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => Politics & Current Affairs => Topic started by: Bubbles on June 27, 2016, 07:37:50 AM
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Well the chancellor has out lined his plans.
Interestingly he named Gove, Johnson and Farage are the ones to negotiate our exit deal with the EU. ( ed. I think they must have cut to Someone else while I was doing breakfast, because I think it was actually hesiltine who said this)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36637732
This thread is to discuss the future,
what is going to happen as opposed to what has happened.
We can discuss different aspects of the plans and their consequences.
Hopefully this will make it slightly different to the others.
Please don't fight over events of last week.
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It would be really helpful if everyone tried not to block the toilet as we go down it?
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It would be really helpful if everyone tried not to block the toilet as we go down it?
No.
It's more " it would be really helpful if the doomsayers would not pull the flush, while we are stood in the toilet bowl with our feet in the @@@@ trying to climb out."
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Interestingly he named Gove, Johnson and Farage are the ones to negotiate our exit deal with the EU. ( ed. I think they must have cut to Someone else while I was doing breakfast, because I think it was actually hesiltine who said this)
I don't think Osbourne said that, Hesiltine might have suggested it but I didn't hear all of his interview.
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Not everyone will be able to access but I can't find a version of it that everyone will. Dom Beaven 's #weneeadaplan simply brilliant
https://m.facebook.com/dom.beaven/posts/10153494690506086
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No.
It's more " it would be really helpful if the doomsayers would not pull the flush, while we are stood in the toilet bowl with our feet in the @@@@ trying to climb out."
I thought you didn't want to discuss what has already happened?
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I heard Osbourne while I was driving to work and he did not say that.
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I heard Osbourne while I was driving to work and he did not say that.
It's not in Osbourne's gift to appoint the negotiators. IT would be absurd to give the next PM the responsibility of triggering article 50 but to have already set up the negotiating team on his behalf.
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It's not in Osbourne's gift to appoint the negotiators. IT would be absurd to give the next PM the responsibility of triggering article 50 but to have already set up the negotiating team on his behalf.
I'm pretty sure it was the Heseltine interview, I just caught the tail end of it. I gather he was proposing that those responsible for creating the mess should come up with the solution, then it would be up to parliament to vote on it.
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It's not in Osbourne's gift to appoint the negotiators. IT would be absurd to give the next PM the responsibility of triggering article 50 but to have already set up the negotiating team on his behalf.
I know it's not. I was simply confirming Osborne did not say what was in the OP
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I'm pretty sure it was the Heseltine interview, I just caught the tail end of it. I gather he was proposing that those responsible for creating the mess should come up with the solution
The only problem with that idea is that it would put Farage and Gove in charge. Johnson is a devious shit, but at least he is not a stupid devious shit. The other two...
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Dear Forum,
Just for the record and I will post this on all the threads concerning Brexit, why? It has to be shouted loud and clear.
This whole debacle, this absolute mess, this catastrophe lies at the feet of the Conservative Party, this EU Referendum was a party political stunt, it never had the thoughts and wishes of the people of Great Britain uppermost.
We now have a nation divided, the Scots are shouting Independence, Northern Ireland are also talking about joining the Republic and both those countries are now wondering about border controls.
Our Capital city ( London ) voted overwhelmingly to remain the rest of England voted to exit, we now have a nation totally divided, our nation is in turmoil because of Tory infighting.
Our Prime Minister ( a Tory ) has washed his hands of the whole mess, we are now left with Tories who don’t have a clue about a way forward.
I have often said that ( long before we even considered a EU Referendum ) the Tory party is the most unchristian, unBritish party we have.
Time for the Conservative Party to disband, give them their marching orders, we a fed up with a party that plays politics, that plays with the life’s of every citizen of Great Britain, they have forfeited the right to stand in our House of Commons, the only thing that mattered to a Tory was the Conservative Party the rights of a British citizen came second, they are a boil on the backside of Great Britain, time to lance that boil.
Gonnagle.
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I think the nation as been becoming more polarised for a long time. It is a shame the political and social elites just sat back and let it happen thinking the rest of us would see it as we see a queue, where we are famous for having a moan while subserviantly standing in it.
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The only problem with that idea is that it would put Farage and Gove in charge. Johnson is a devious shit, but at least he is not a stupid devious shit. The other two...
If it were possible to go down that route, I suppose it would mean that Gove, Farage and Johnson would have to stand before the British people and explain why they had come back with an agreement that was slightly worse than what we had before.
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I know it's not. I was simply confirming Osborne did not say what was in the OP
I amended the op soon after because I realised he didn't say it. ( in brackets)
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It's a bit like shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted but I reckon we need a clause that prevents politicians from calling for public referendums which have serious consquenses for all of us unless a preliminary plan is put forward first . ( for the change)
Everything on it has to be accurate, what is involved and what the steps are, & the pros and cons.
We have had two referendums IMO where there were no plans drawn up.
One was Scottish Independance, where no one even knew what currency was going to be used, nothing had been negotiated or agreed before hand, it was a vote from the gut.
Now we have Brexit, only this time the @@@@ has hit the fan.
I think there shouldn't be any sort of public referendum on something this big without there being plans in place on realistically how it's going to proceed.
I think it would safeguard us, the voter, from getting ourselves in a right mess, because we want something now.
I think Scottish Independance could fall into the same category, because people vote with their gut reaction, other people are charismatic people get swept along.
We need to safeguard our futures by ensuring if we do vote on something there should be some good plans in place for our choices.
After all, anyone can dream and pick up on the mood of the crowd, the hard work is in the planning and making it work.
I think we need a clause in our constitution which protects us from " dreamers with no substance"
A clause that says referendums on this scale need a plan of action that sets out what happens after, which is not just more dreaming.
It's to protect everyone.
Any one agree? Or is it a terrible idea?
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Dear Rose,
Agreed, my turmoil over Scottish Independence, in the end I saw no plan, the choice was, stay with what we do know or step into the abyss. That was a big gamble, the English and Welsh have taken that gamble, or rather have been pushed, I just hope they are all feeling lucky, fortune favours the brave, we can only wait and see :o
Gonnagle.
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I’ve made a petition – will you sign it?
Click this link to sign the petition:
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/150241/sponsors/QsnoNlH2SnlywZLE8Rh5
My petition:
Amend constitution to prevent gov from calling a referendum without plan/ action
Both the Scottish Independance and the Brexit referendum appeared to be put to the public without there being plans of action put in place by supporters of the change. I think this is a risk to all the voters concerned
My proposal is that government have a clause that has to be satisfied before a referendum that changes the constitution or form of our country can be initiated. A plan of action has to be submitted by the side supporting the change which needs to clearly show realistic steps to achieving the change. I feel this would protect the people voting as it would mean things would have to be looked at carefully before voting, rather than after when it's too late.
I'd be honoured if anyone agrees and would sign my petition.
I don't think our present referendum should have taken place as it was.
It wasn't well planned enough for the exit.
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I’ve made a petition – will you sign it?
Click this link to sign the petition:
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/150241/sponsors/QsnoNlH2SnlywZLE8Rh5
My petition:
Amend constitution to prevent gov from calling a referendum without plan/ action
Both the Scottish Independance and the Brexit referendum appeared to be put to the public without there being plans of action put in place by supporters of the change. I think this is a risk to all the voters concerned
My proposal is that government have a clause that has to be satisfied before a referendum that changes the constitution or form of our country can be initiated. A plan of action has to be submitted by the side supporting the change which needs to clearly show realistic steps to achieving the change. I feel this would protect the people voting as it would mean things would have to be looked at carefully before voting, rather than after when it's too late.
I'd be honoured if anyone agrees and would sign my petition.
I don't think our present referendum should have taken place as it was.
It wasn't well planned enough for the exit.
That's weird, the text of what your petition is about does not appear on the petition page for me.
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Dear Julie, Hi Julie ;)
What Jeremyp just said, it looks to me that only our little band of rogues on this forum will know what they are signing.
Gonnagle.
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Dear Julie, Hi Julie ;)
What Jeremyp just said, it looks to me that only our little band of rogues on this forum will know what they are signing.
Gonnagle.
Yes, I've emailed them (gov) but I suspect it won't show until I have got 5 people to sign it.
I guess I'll have to ask 5 people who know me well enough to trust me.
They then publish it, after 5 people.
Perhaps it's to stop them getting lots of random rubbish.
I've put it on Facebook and round my friends so fingers crossed
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Just looked up the mp for my area, he voted leave ???
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This whole debacle, this absolute mess, this catastrophe lies at the feet of the Conservative Party, this EU Referendum was a party political stunt, it never had the thoughts and wishes of the people of Great Britain uppermost.
I would disagree, Gonners. If you look at the places that voted heavily to leave - such as Blaenau Gwent, Grimsby, etc. the votes were Labour votes. I believe that the British opeople had to be given a choice, especially after they had been promised one on two separate occasions and those promises were renaged on.
Our Prime Minister ( a Tory ) has washed his hands of the whole mess, we are now left with Tories who don’t have a clue about a way forward.
What else could he do but resign? Are you suggesting that he ought to hold onto the post of PM, even though the country's direction will be going diametrically opposite to that which he wanted?
I have often said that ( long before we even considered a EU Referendum ) the Tory party is the most unchristian, unBritish party we have.
On what grounds do you make this accusation? For instance, it was David Cameron who insisted that our International Aid Budget should match the UN's suggested 0.7% of GNP - a development that was refused by Labour and, as far as I'm aware, wasn't even mentioned in the SNP manifesto (though they did have a Scotland-specific budget). The Welfare Budget had to be looked at - something that Labour wouldn't dare to do; whether the Coalition/Tory governments have done it as well as they might have done is open to debate, but at least they have tried.
Time for the Conservative Party to disband, give them their marching orders, we a fed up with a party that plays politics, that plays with the life’s of every citizen of Great Britain, they have forfeited the right to stand in our House of Commons, the only thing that mattered to a Tory was the Conservative Party the rights of a British citizen came second, they are a boil on the backside of Great Britain, time to lance that boil.
Using your arguments here, Labour, the SNP, UKIP - in fact just about every political party - should disband because none of them have done anything other than play politics.
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Dear Hope,
I am but a simple man, I don't know much about the ways of politicians, but I read and try and sift my way through the detritus, I look out on the real world and try to determine the why.
I would disagree, Gonners. If you look at the places that voted heavily to leave - such as Blaenau Gwent, Grimsby, etc. the votes were Labour votes.
Absolutely correct, why? the Tory party has let them down, a failure to invest in this countries infrastructure, a failure to be seen to be proactively going after the big guns, the one's who siphon off billions from our country, instead they target the weak and defenceless.
Your ordinary Labour voter has listened to the propaganda and thought, yes that's who to blame, johnny foreigner, our over stretched NHS, johnny foreigner, absolutely nothing to do with a governments failure to invest properly.
The British people did not need a choice, it was foisted on them by right wing Tories and the yapping's of the UKIP, yes the EU needed to be reformed but that required strong leadership, can you honestly say we have strong leadership when they target the weak and leave the rich to continually siphon off the profits.
What else could he do but resign? Are you suggesting that he ought to hold onto the post of PM, even though the country's direction will be going diametrically opposite to that which he wanted?
Of course he had to resign, he wanted out anyway, he lost, his gamble with millions of live's failed, he didn't need to gamble, he could have told his fellow Tories and UKIP to shut the fuck up, he could have invested in the very area's you mention, but he didn't, the Labour voters who voted to leave, a protest vote, but their protest is at the wrong thing, yes the EU needs reforming but it is the Tory parties failures that need protesting against.
On what grounds do you make this accusation? For instance, it was David Cameron who insisted that our International Aid Budget should match the UN's suggested 0.7% of GNP - a development that was refused by Labour and, as far as I'm aware, wasn't even mentioned in the SNP manifesto (though they did have a Scotland-specific budget). The Welfare Budget had to be looked at - something that Labour wouldn't dare to do; whether the Coalition/Tory governments have done it as well as they might have done is open to debate, but at least they have tried.
Simple, on the grounds of a Sass post, all her posts shouting about our own home grown failures to protect our own weak and vulnerable, we have been constantly told that Britain is the fifth richest country in the world but we still have foodbanks, we still have homeless, we still have poverty on our own streets, this is not an EU problem, this is a government problem who is wedded to a grotesque thing called austerity.
So when I say unChristian, turning a blind eye to a problem which we have the means to fix, when I say unBritish, failing to help our poor and needy, no matter what nationality, if they are on our streets it is our problem, that to me has always been the British way.
Using your arguments here, Labour, the SNP, UKIP - in fact just about every political party - should disband because none of them have done anything other than play politics.
Well maybe I can agree with that, but this whole mess is Tory mess, we did not need a referendum, and we certainly did not need a referendum so quickly, no one in the Tory party expected this, they did not plan for this, that is obvious from the reaction of the leave and remain Tories.
So I still say, kick the Tories out, the country has voted to leave, let others who do have the best interests of this country at heart negotiate our leaving.
Gonnagle.
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Apparently John Redwood has a plan.
Will it involve the same maneuvers as his last great exit......slipping out the back gate after the Labour landslide in 1997?
Trying to track the clip down on YouTube.
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Apparently John Redwood has a plan.
Is it, 'Just wing it and hope no one notices'?
https://youtu.be/GzBq0n8dxFQ
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Time for the Conservative Party to disband, give them their marching orders, we a fed up with a party that plays politics,
Gonners
I don't know whether anyone has explained this to you, but the Conservative Party is a ... political party. Its primary purpose is to play politics.
It is the nature of the beast.
That said I do have some sympathy for your viewpoint. You are correct (and Hope is incorrect) in stating that this referendum was a party political stunt. Its purpose was to kick the right rebellious contingent in the Conservative Party (Redwood et al) into oblivion. It was never intended to test national opinion, it was just a heavy handed, clumsy, expensive (though state funded) bully boy attack on members of his own party.
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Gonners
I don't know whether anyone has explained this to you, but the Conservative Party is a ... political party. Its primary purpose is to play politics.
It is the nature of the beast.
That said I do have some sympathy for your viewpoint. You are correct (and Hope is incorrect) in stating that this referendum was a party political stunt. Its purpose was to kick the right rebellious contingent in the Conservative Party (Redwood et al) into oblivion. It was never intended to test national opinion, it was just a heavy handed, clumsy, expensive (though state funded) bully boy attack on members of his own party.
The EU referendum act passed through parliament 544 to 53, Gonzo is talking nonsense.
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That said I do have some sympathy for your viewpoint. You are correct (and Hope is incorrect) in stating that this referendum was a party political stunt. Its purpose was to kick the right rebellious contingent in the Conservative Party (Redwood et al) into oblivion. It was never intended to test national opinion, it was just a heavy handed, clumsy, expensive (though state funded) bully boy attack on members of his own party.
And I would say that you are incorrect as well, HH. Both the Tory and Labour Parties have been split on Europe since day 1, with the Tories allowing that split to be worked out in public (transparent), whilst Labour has either swept it under the carpet or actively denied it (opaque). I certainly know which type of party I'd rather have running the country, though in my personal view both are really too right wing. I'd prefer the Greens or, at the least, the Lib Dems.
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Dear Hope,
Aye! The Tories have been very transparent on Europe, it has been a glorious piece of prestidigitation, all eyes on Europe whilst the NHS is underfunded, we still have food banks and poverty. Never mind unemployment look at pretty Europe. >:(
Gonnagle.
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My understanding, Hope, is that the promise of a referendum was made by David Cameron at some point during the coalition period. It was made at a time when he expected to have to remain in coalition following the next general election. He knew it would be unacceptable to his coalition partners and would not see daylight so put it in the Conservative manifesto. But he did not predict the elimination of the LibDems and was, to quote a certain Danish prince, hoist by his own petard.
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Plan for themselves
http://news.sky.com/story/1719331/goves-wife-raises-johnson-leadership-concerns
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Absolutely correct, why? the Tory party has let them down, a failure to invest in this countries infrastructure, a failure to be seen to be proactively going after the big guns, the one's who siphon off billions from our country, instead they target the weak and defenceless.
In case you hadn't noticed, the Tories have been in sole power for about 19 years since we joined the Common Market/EU and a further 5 years in Coalition; Labour have been in power for the rest (41 - 24) - 17. I'd suggest that that means that both major parties are fairly equally to blame for the lack of investment. Here in Wales, we have received a tad over £4 billion from Europe in 'structural funding' since 2000. That has been largely administered by a Labour administration, and one reason that Welsh places like Blaenau Gwent voted agin the EU is because the EU money they have received was spent less than cleverly.
Note, I'm not trying to palm off the blame that is rightly being laid at the Tory Party's feet; I'm simply trying to show that Labour are no less guilty. In the 13 years they were in power under Blair and Brown, they robbed the pension pots of unions and big business alike, they failed to adequately protect the economy (and were helped to a degree by the Tory opposition, they failed to close tax loopholes, they failed to deal with the massive problems that the NHS had been falling into since the late 70s/early 80s, they've favoured their own cronies in the same way that the Tories have, ... . Yes, they did some good stuff - as have the Tories over the years - but they are certasinly no less blameless.
Your ordinary Labour voter has listened to the propaganda and thought, yes that's who to blame, johnny foreigner, our over stretched NHS, johnny foreigner, absolutely nothing to do with a governments failure to invest properly.
I'd suggest that the ordinary Labour voter has simply stuck to their long-time aversion to the EEC, let alone the EU.
The British people did not need a choice, it was foisted on them by right wing Tories and the yapping's of the UKIP, yes the EU needed to be reformed but that required strong leadership, can you honestly say we have strong leadership when they target the weak and leave the rich to continually siphon off the profits.
I wouild disagree. As I've already mentioned, both on this thread and others, the UK has been deeply divided on the subject of Europe for 40-odd years. If either Maggie and/or Tony had allowed a referendum on the EU treaties that they were responsible for, we might already have been out - but I suspect that we'd have still been in a somewhat different EU.
... but we still have foodbanks, we still have homeless, we still have poverty on our own streets, this is not an EU problem, this is a government problem who is wedded to a grotesque thing called austerity.
Which, in itself, is wedded to the massive global economic disaster of 9 years ago, which was brought about by shoddy financial controls across the world. We could have chosen not to have bailed the banks out, but then we would probably have found ourselves in an even deeper hole.
So when I say unChristian, turning a blind eye to a problem which we have the means to fix, when I say unBritish, failing to help our poor and needy, no matter what nationality, if they are on our streets it is our problem, that to me has always been the British way.
But do we have the means to fix the problems? Scotland seemed to gone some way to doing so, largely because they have one of the largest per capita Central Government grants in the UK - leaving the other elements struggling even more than they might have. Our position as 5th richest nation in the world had a huge amount to do with our being a member of the EU.
Well maybe I can agree with that, but this whole mess is Tory mess, we did not need a referendum, and we certainly did not need a referendum so quickly, no one in the Tory party expected this, they did not plan for this, that is obvious from the reaction of the leave and remain Tories.
You could argue that no-one expected UKIP and pro-exit Tories to base their case on such blatant half-truths, no-one expected a Labour Party leader to be so hugely half-hearted in his support for Remain; no-one expected that the Leave campaign would have failed so signally to have done its homework and come up with a plan that could have been actioned within hours of the vote being announced; no-one could have expected ... we could go on ad infinitum.
So I still say, kick the Tories out, the country has voted to leave, let others who do have the best interests of this country at heart negotiate our leaving.
Gonnagle.
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My understanding, Hope, is that the promise of a referendum was made by David Cameron at some point during the coalition period. It was made at a time when he expected to have to remain in coalition following the next general election.
IIRC (and I'm open to correction) it was made within the first couple of years of coalition. I suspect that, in view of the massive diviusions across the country (and the 2 main parties) that have existed for decades, the Lib Dems might well have gone with the idea - if only to shut the critics of our membership up.