Religion and Ethics Forum

General Category => Politics & Current Affairs => Topic started by: Nearly Sane on July 07, 2016, 07:43:06 PM

Title: Black lives matter?
Post by: Nearly Sane on July 07, 2016, 07:43:06 PM
You look at the graph and it seems barely comprehensible

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-36732908
Title: Re: Black lives matter?
Post by: Nearly Sane on July 08, 2016, 07:39:28 AM
And now this, incredibly sad that something you thought we might have begun to move past is still so powerful


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-36742835
Title: Re: Black lives matter?
Post by: floo on July 08, 2016, 08:37:34 AM
It is awful!
Title: Re: Black lives matter?
Post by: Gonnagle on July 08, 2016, 08:47:49 AM
Dear Sane and Floo,

Strange, but the only thought flitting through my wee brain right now is a saying my old Mother was heard to say, "it will get worse before it gets better".

I hope and pray that this is the catalyst, that strong minds come together and say enough.

Gonnagle.
Title: Re: Black lives matter?
Post by: Nearly Sane on July 08, 2016, 08:55:50 AM
Looking at the stats on black men killed by police  each month, it's been 'worse' for them for a long time.
Title: Re: Black lives matter?
Post by: Harrowby Hall on July 08, 2016, 09:07:21 AM
I share Gonnagle's hope.

But the USA has got to get rid of its obsession with firearms.
Title: Re: Black lives matter?
Post by: floo on July 08, 2016, 09:29:49 AM
If the insane Trump becomes president he will probably arm babies with guns as well!!!!
Title: Re: Black lives matter?
Post by: ad_orientem on July 08, 2016, 12:07:17 PM
What a fucked up country!
Title: Re: Black lives matter?
Post by: Udayana on July 08, 2016, 01:42:03 PM
I'm surprised that ISIS or other terrorists haven't exploited such a raw trigger point over the last few years.
Title: Re: Black lives matter?
Post by: Brownie on July 08, 2016, 03:29:01 PM
Give it time.
Title: Re: Black lives matter?
Post by: Bubbles on July 08, 2016, 04:02:36 PM
White lives matter too.


Dallas shooting: Gunman 'wanted to kill whites' says police chief


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-36745862

That's awful too.

 :(

Racists come in all colours.
Title: Re: Black lives matter?
Post by: Udayana on July 08, 2016, 04:21:40 PM
"While outside in the whitewash
Where the guns are always, always right
A shooting star has summoned
Deaths dark angel from its night"

Roy Harper, I Hate The White Man.
Title: Re: Black lives matter?
Post by: Maeght on July 09, 2016, 04:13:28 AM
What a fucked up country!

I was amazed by the story of the man they mistakenly suspected originally who had taken a semi-automatic rifle along to the protest. They asked his brother why he had done this at a supposedly peaceful protest and he replied 'Because its his right'.

The gun lobby seem to say that people should have guns to protect themselves and to prevent mass killings - but I've never heard of an incident where a civilian has acted to prevent one of these type of tragedies. Anyone know if this has happened?
Title: Re: Black lives matter?
Post by: floo on July 09, 2016, 08:35:43 AM
White lives matter too.


Dallas shooting: Gunman 'wanted to kill whites' says police chief


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-36745862

That's awful too.

 :(

Racists come in all colours.

In America it is more often the blacks who are on the receiving end of hate crime, not the whites!
Title: Re: Black lives matter?
Post by: Udayana on July 09, 2016, 09:37:58 AM
I was amazed by the story of the man they mistakenly suspected originally who had taken a semi-automatic rifle along to the protest. They asked his brother why he had done this at a supposedly peaceful protest and he replied 'Because its his right'.

The gun lobby seem to say that people should have guns to protect themselves and to prevent mass killings - but I've never heard of an incident where a civilian has acted to prevent one of these type of tragedies. Anyone know if this has happened?

Texas law was changed this year to allow open carrying of rifles.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_Texas#License_to_Carry

To openly carry is the deliberate choice of some protesters as part of the protest. The gun carried by Mark Hughes, the man you mention, was not loaded. The right to carry is a significant part of the problem - black people carrying guns or feared to be carrying are far more likely to be killed by police, disproportionately to white people.

It does occasionally happen that a "mass killing" is prevented by armed non-police persons. This is interesting:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2015/10/03/do-civilians-with-guns-ever-stop-mass-shootings/
 
Title: Re: Black lives matter?
Post by: ad_orientem on July 09, 2016, 12:25:20 PM
I was amazed by the story of the man they mistakenly suspected originally who had taken a semi-automatic rifle along to the protest. They asked his brother why he had done this at a supposedly peaceful protest and he replied 'Because its his right'.

The gun lobby seem to say that people should have guns to protect themselves and to prevent mass killings - but I've never heard of an incident where a civilian has acted to prevent one of these type of tragedies. Anyone know if this has happened?

The thing is that if people have the right to carry concealed weapons the police are also going to be more ready to use theirs because anyone, in theory, could pull one out on them. It's just a vicious circle and completely nuts.
Title: Re: Black lives matter?
Post by: floo on July 09, 2016, 01:50:49 PM
The thing is that if people have the right to carry concealed weapons the police are also going to be more ready to use theirs because anyone, in theory, could pull one out on them. It's just a vicious circle and completely nuts.

Agreed.

The American's love affair with firearms results in terrible tragedies so very regularly, yet they still can't put two and two together!
Title: Re: Black lives matter?
Post by: Harrowby Hall on July 09, 2016, 04:46:56 PM
Agreed.

The American's love affair with firearms results in terrible tragedies so very regularly, yet they still can't put two and two together!

What is so sickening, Floo, is that so many Americans appear to believe that possession of firearms is the solution to, and not the cause of, their problem.
Title: Re: Black lives matter?
Post by: floo on July 09, 2016, 05:01:08 PM
What is so sickening, Floo, is that so many Americans appear to believe that possession of firearms is the solution to, and not the cause of, their problem.

Yes that would appear to be the case, they need to get real!
Title: Re: Black lives matter?
Post by: jakswan on July 09, 2016, 05:55:34 PM
Words fail me, those two deaths looked like executions.
Title: Re: Black lives matter?
Post by: Hope on July 09, 2016, 06:05:15 PM
I'm surprised that ISIS or other terrorists haven't exploited such a raw trigger point over the last few years.
I thought that they had.  Haven't some of the recent events occurred 'in support of' ISIS, etc?

I haven't seen the footage of the 'original' trigger event so am not sure whether it was purely a 'white' on 'black' event, but is the best response to then target police officers?
Title: Re: Black lives matter?
Post by: Hope on July 09, 2016, 06:20:38 PM
Whilst I fully agree with the purpose of the phrase that has been used in the thread title, I sometimes wonder whether concentrating on the importance of all human lives - not just black, white, brown, yellow, etc. - might not be more effective.
Title: Re: Black lives matter?
Post by: wigginhall on July 10, 2016, 02:46:06 PM
There's an interesting reply to the slogan 'All lives matter' - you go to the doctor with a broken arm, and he says, 'all bones matter', and you might say, yes, indeedy, but could you fix this broken one?
Title: Re: Black lives matter?
Post by: Hope on July 10, 2016, 03:26:33 PM
There's an interesting reply to the slogan 'All lives matter' - you go to the doctor with a broken arm, and he says, 'all bones matter', and you might say, yes, indeedy, but could you fix this broken one?
And an answer to that could be along the lines of 'were you thinking about the consequences when you were doing whatever resulted in your breaking a bone?'

Title: Re: Black lives matter?
Post by: wigginhall on July 10, 2016, 03:30:23 PM
Another analogy: standing outside a breast cancer clinic, shouting 'all cancers matter'. 
Title: Re: Black lives matter?
Post by: Hope on July 10, 2016, 03:41:55 PM
Another analogy: standing outside a breast cancer clinic, shouting 'all cancers matter'.
The point I was trying to make is that we often try to isolate elements - sometimes to our detriment.  I appreciate that the African element of the US population is a significant one, but then they also have a sizeable Hispanic population, and often they seem to be pushed to one side when it comes to the mis-balance as regards treatment by the authorities.
Title: Re: Black lives matter?
Post by: Brownie on July 10, 2016, 03:47:28 PM
Whilst I fully agree with the purpose of the phrase that has been used in the thread title, I sometimes wonder whether concentrating on the importance of all human lives - not just black, white, brown, yellow, etc. - might not be more effective.

I get your point, Hope, absolutely.  However the phrase was first coined by black people who were fed up with the treatment of black people by the police and other agencies.  So I wouldn't argue with it.  We don't have to say, "White lives matter", because they obviously do and whilst we might have problems and occasionally be the victim of racism (as was highlighted earlier on in this thread, very nasty business), it isn't the general rule.  Black people have always had to prove themselves and be better than anyone else to have any credibility;  it should not be so and is clearly not as bad as it used to be but is still very much the case, especially noticeable in America.  There are other groups who are equally marginalised, they probably say the same about themselves.
Title: Re: Black lives matter?
Post by: Hope on July 10, 2016, 03:56:05 PM
I get your point, Hope, absolutely.  However the phrase was first coined by black people who were fed up with the treatment of black people by the police and other agencies.  So I wouldn't argue with it.
If you re-read my original post, I say the same, Brownie. 

Quote
There are other groups who are equally marginalised, they probably say the same about themselves.
I suppose I'm thinking from an educational viewpoint - its far more efficient to teach the equal value of all human lives, regardless of a person's race, gender, age, orientations, educational ability (academic and non-academic), etc.
Title: Re: Black lives matter?
Post by: Brownie on July 10, 2016, 04:01:33 PM
You said: Whilst I fully agree with the purpose of the phrase that has been used in the thread title, I sometimes wonder whether concentrating on the importance of all human lives - not just black, white, brown, yellow, etc. - might not be more effective.


I think we agree with eachother on this one, Hope.
Title: Re: Black lives matter?
Post by: Maeght on July 10, 2016, 09:07:12 PM

It does occasionally happen that a "mass killing" is prevented by armed non-police persons. This is interesting:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2015/10/03/do-civilians-with-guns-ever-stop-mass-shootings/

Thanks.