Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Keith Maitland on July 31, 2016, 02:40:16 AM
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The core of what bothers me about Donald Trump is the vacuousness of his speech. He will literally say the same thing 3 times in a row and it was meaningless the first time. It is significant that he never manages to utter a single, extemporaneous string of sentences that is deep, insightful or even interesting. This reveals something about him.
Here is an analogy.
Imagine you have an urn and every time you reach into it you pull out another piece of junk. It has broken glass and nothing of value. While it might seem unlikely, it is not impossible that something of tremendous value is also in there. You could pull a diamond out of there if you keep fishing around. Now this is possible because what you pull out at each round doesn't really indicate what else is in there.
Minds are not like that. Ideas are connected. The ability to reason well for instance is transferable from one domain to another. And so is an inability to reason. A desire not to seem incoherent -- this is something that intelligent, well informed people tend to have. When you hear people speak on topics that are crucial to the most important enterprise they are engaging and all they've got is bluster and bombast and banality strewn with factual errors, it is quite irrational to believe that there is a brilliant mind behind all that just waiting to get out. Trump is not hiding his light under a bushel. He is all bushel.
William Shakespeare said, "All the world's a stage" more than 400 years ago. And today, many people want a former reality-show star and businessman to be the most powerful man on earth. They say it is because career politicians are too "politically correct" when they speak. But maybe it is also because these people are too jaded, bored and uninformed to care about the issues. And that combination can make them sitting ducks for people who can entertain them with dazzling rhetoric. Perhaps in the future we will learn to distinguish entertainment from politics, and avoid getting caught in this situation again.
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If you have been eating everything right but still have some stomach discomfort...you'll tend to throw caution to the winds and gobble up something tasty. To hell with it.....whatever happens happens!
Its probably the same in politics. If you have been choosing all the politically correct and sensible guys but things aren't looking up...why not give someone like Trump a chance. It can't get any worse anyway....and it'll probably stir things up a bit. Something new and.... different. It might even work!!
Brexit was also probably a result of the same attitude.
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If you have been eating everything right but still have some stomach discomfort...you'll tend to throw caution to the winds and gobble up something tasty. To hell with it.....whatever happens happens!
Its probably the same in politics. If you have been choosing all the politically correct and sensible guys but things aren't looking up...why not give someone like Trump a chance. It can't get any worse anyway....and it'll probably stir things up a bit. Something new and.... different. It might even work!!
Brexit was also probably a result of the same attitude.
Who says things couldn't get worse ? Things could easily get worse and if America tires of having thinking people at the helm and puts some populist demagogue in charge that is going to impact on all of us.
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If you have been eating everything right but still have some stomach discomfort...you'll tend to throw caution to the winds and gobble up something tasty. To hell with it.....whatever happens happens!
Its probably the same in politics. If you have been choosing all the politically correct and sensible guys but things aren't looking up...why not give someone like Trump a chance. It can't get any worse anyway....and it'll probably stir things up a bit. Something new and.... different. It might even work!!
Brexit was also probably a result of the same attitude.
It would get one hell of a lot worse with the insane Trump in charge! He would be a danger to the whole world.
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The core of what bothers me about Donald Trump is the vacuousness of his speech. He will literally say the same thing 3 times in a row and it was meaningless the first time. It is significant that he never manages to utter a single, extemporaneous string of sentences that is deep, insightful or even interesting. This reveals something about him.
It's simply the old trick that if you repeat a lie often enough people will start to believe you. The technique was used quite a lot by the LEAVE campaign recently.
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It's simply the old trick that if you repeat a lie often enough people will start to believe you. The technique was used quite a lot by the LEAVE campaign recently.
Yes, he is certainly doing that. He is also using expressions that have little meaning (without complex definition) and using them as slogans: "Let's make America great again". What on Earth does that mean? (The Bexiteers were droning on about "regaining sovereignty" - equally vacuous.) He is pandering to - and massaging the egos of - a great number of people who have never learned to examine their own values or those of the nation they inhabit.
However, I wonder if his latest apparent trick may not be his undoing? His apparent "friendship" with Vladimir Putin. It is speculated that Trump has engaged Russian internet security scammers to break into the Democratic Party's computer system. The same right wing electorate that he is trying to woo may be the same people who regard Russia as the great "communist" threat to the "greatness" to which they aspire.
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Who says things couldn't get worse ? Things could easily get worse and if America tires of having thinking people at the helm and puts some populist demagogue in charge that is going to impact on all of us.
Who are the 'thinking' people? Was Ronald Reagan a 'thinking' person? Was Bill Clinton a thinking person? Was Carter a thinking person? Was George Bush a thinking person?
Change is good! We all like status quo and what we think is safe. But sometimes dramatic change can bring good things in the long run.
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It would get one hell of a lot worse with the insane Trump in charge! He would be a danger to the whole world.
What exactly could he do that could endanger the whole world? All that stuff about the nuclear button is nonsense. Things don't work that way in real life.
Ok...he may tweak some immigration policies and stuff. Nothing that other countries are not attempting to do.
Leaders are no longer as important or pivotal as we think. The system runs on its own steam.
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Trump is a racist, homophobic and generally nasty guy who would bring the US to its knees as well as putting the rest of the world in danger. His insane comments could provoke WW3.
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Trump is a racist, homophobic and generally nasty guy who would bring the US to its knees as well as putting the rest of the world in danger. His insane comments could provoke WW3.
Were all the earlier presidents saints and sages? ::)
People talk lots of things during campaigning. When they get elected, the system keeps them in check. Nothing really happens.
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Trump is also climate change denier. In addition, he adheres to the belief that vaccination is damaging.
One factor that we may have to consider is that although the President of the United States is a very prominent world figure, that is generally through his ceremonial head of state position. As the chief executive of the USA, his political power is considerably constrained. The much vaunted Constitution of the United States of America, by its insistence on the separation of powers, constrains the president considerably. He has no control over legislation and his implementation of legislation is monitored by the Supreme Court.
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It can't get any worse anyway.
Yes it can. In the history of the World, life in the USA is pretty much as good as its ever been at the moment.
I don't understand why people in Western democracies seem to think everything is going wrong, it's not.
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Who are the 'thinking' people? Was Ronald Reagan a 'thinking' person? Was Bill Clinton a thinking person? Was Carter a thinking person? Was George Bush a thinking person?
Yes, certainly in comparison to Trump.
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Were all the earlier presidents saints and sages? ::)
People talk lots of things during campaigning. When they get elected, the system keeps them in check. Nothing really happens.
Compared to Trump, the others were saints and sages, even the worst of them!
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Sriram,
If you have been eating everything right but still have some stomach discomfort...you'll tend to throw caution to the winds and gobble up something tasty. To hell with it.....whatever happens happens!
Its probably the same in politics. If you have been choosing all the politically correct and sensible guys but things aren't looking up...why not give someone like Trump a chance. It can't get any worse anyway....and it'll probably stir things up a bit. Something new and.... different. It might even work!!
Brexit was also probably a result of the same attitude.
The question that comes to mind for many is what is the allure of Trump and how is it possible his supporters seem unwilling to carefully assess the credibility of his declarations. Despite the fact that Trump is on record making statements that are hateful, hurtful, devoid of serious thought, self-aggrandizing and preposterous, there are many who continue to drink the Kool-Aid.
In psychology, there is a construct called cognitive dissonance. Basically the idea goes that once people make up their minds about something, they become emotionally wedded to a person, idea or plan of action. Despite being confronted with evidence that contradicts a given thought or commitment, people tend to ignore the data at hand rather than modify or change their position. Sometimes it feels good to give into or gratify an impulse. Why not order that dessert or buy that pricey new outfit or toy. But when it comes to making big choices that could prove to be life altering, it is important that adults take a deep breath, ignore a momentary high or fascination and take a deeper look at what they are buying.
The election of a President is a serious matter that can impact the fate of all Americans. Such a choice reverberates throughout the world.
Impulse is easy and may lead to immediate gratification. Critical thinking is hard and may require putting aside a temporary high or the illusion of security in order to do what is right for one's self and others.
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Keith,
We are emotional beings. Rational thinking is just a tool we use now and then...and not a part of our being.
Like I said and like you also pointed out...every now and then we feel the need to do something different, something daring, something that will break the monotony. Enough of the same thing over and over again. Enough of the controls.
Sometimes it happens even in politics. If things get too prim and propah, too boring and predictable, we like to stir things up a bit. Some excitement. Take a chance and see what happens.
Someone strikes a cord about some issues that have been bothering us. Something emotional. Something primeval and fundamental. Then it can be very powerful and overpowering. Rationality is weak and tiresome in comparison.
Why do you think ISIS is so powerful? Why is religion in general so powerful?
Its not just about hate. Its about basic emotions being stirred up. It can make people feel alive and powerful.
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What exactly could he do that could endanger the whole world? All that stuff about the nuclear button is nonsense. Things don't work that way in real life.
Ok...he may tweak some immigration policies and stuff. Nothing that other countries are not attempting to do.
Leaders are no longer as important or pivotal as we think. The system runs on its own steam.
Whether or not he ever gets into the position where 'pushing the button' becomes a likely option, the fact is that the President of America does have the power to declare war (which is quite bizarre when you consider that he can't even get the gun laws reformed without support from Congress and the Senate)
Trump claims to be a businessman who can 'cut-deals' with the likes of Putin, which sounds 'kind of' reassuring to his followers - but what is he going to do if the deal goes wrong and he believes that he has been double-crossed?
He is not a stable personality and the prospects are quite frightening.
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Whether or not he ever gets into the position where 'pushing the button' becomes a likely option, the fact is that the President of America does have the power to declare war (which is quite bizarre when you consider that he can't even get the gun laws reformed without support from Congress and the Senate)
Almost ... but not quite.
It is not Congress and the Senate, it is the House of Representatives and the Senate. Both together comprise Congress. Under the US constitution only Congress can make law - the president may propose legislation but he cannot enact it.
Among the roles performed by the president is Supreme Commander of the Armed Forces. This enables him to declare war. If he does declare war he is supposed to get the approval of Congress. To be able to continue the war he needs money - and he can only get this through Congress. This does mean though that an ... err ... erratic president can do a lot of damage before being brought under control.
I suspect that the constitutional checks and balances on presidential power would restrict a President Trump (ugh) from making a complete arsehole of himself. I suppose one possible scenario may be a president presenting himself as the people's champion being obstructed by an out-of-touch Congress.
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Sriram,
We are emotional beings. Rational thinking is just a tool we use now and then...and not a part of our being.
But Mr. Trump doesn’t know the difference between the Quds Force and the Kurds. He can’t identify the nuclear triad, the American strategic nuclear arsenal’s delivery system. He had never heard of Brexit until a few weeks before the vote. He thinks the Constitution has 12 Articles rather than seven. He uses the vocabulary of a fifth grader. Most damning of all, he traffics in off-the-wall conspiracy theories by insinuating that President Obama was born in Kenya and that Ted Cruz’s father was involved in the Kennedy assassination. It is hardly surprising to read Tony Schwartz, the ghostwriter for Mr. Trump’s best seller “The Art of the Deal,” say, " I seriously doubt that Trump has ever read a book straight through in his adult life.”
The Trump acolytes claim it doesn’t matter; he can hire experts to advise him. But experts always disagree with one another and it is the president alone who must make the most difficult decisions in the world. That’s not something he can do since he lacks the most basic grounding in the issues and is prey to fundamental misconceptions.
In a way, the joke’s on the Republican Party: After decades of masquerading as the “stupid party,” that’s what it has become. But if an unapologetic ignoramus wins the presidency, the consequences will be no laughing matter.
Even if we can avoid the calamity of a Trump presidency, however, the G.O.P. still has a lot of soul-searching to do. Mr. Trump is as much a symptom as a cause of the party’s anti-intellectual drift. The party needs to rethink its growing anti-intellectual bias and its reflexive aversion to elites. Catering to populist anger with extremist proposals that are certain to fail is not a viable strategy for political success.
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Keith,
I am not supporting Trump. What happens in America doesn't bother me at all. It has very little impact on my country and my life.
What I am saying is that we are making too much of this Trump issue. Leaders nowadays are not as pivotal as they used to be. Most other people in Govt. are well educated and well in control.
America has done plenty of damage in Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq etc. without Trump. If George Bush and Blair can get away with Iraq (which was a private war between Bush and Saddam)....there is nothing more damaging that Trump can do. And I don't believe he is as senseless as is being made out. All his bluff and bluster will simmer down if he is elected.
Hillary is not some kind of a genius or paragon of virtue in any case.
We are overreacting.
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I cannot think of anything about Trump that does not bother me.
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We are not over reacting.
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I think we all need to worry if a climate change denier becomes leader of the world's largest CO2 emitting economy. People in that position need to be able to listen to advice, weigh things up and consider long term policy whereas Mr Trump comes across more like some opinionated bloke down the golf club after a couple of beers. Maybe it's all front, calculated to appeal to a middle America tired of a politically correct political class; a man with a common touch, like Reagan, but with more hair.
I see a parallel in Trump's popularity with the UK Brexit vote; it is the ordinary working man making his voice heard, and his voice is saying that he is not really interested the aspirations and vision and progressive agendas of the political class. It's a selling out of long term vision for a narrower, short term, self interest.
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I am not supporting Trump. What happens in America doesn't bother me at all. It has very little impact on my country and my life.
What we do not know is how Indian media are treating the US presidential campaign. India is busy positioning itself as a major regional power and not give this process the same kind of attention and analysis as the UK media.
What I am saying is that we are making too much of this Trump issue. Leaders nowadays are not as pivotal as they used to be. Most other people in Govt. are well educated and well in control.
Here, I think, Sriram may be a little off target. In the US constitution the president IS pivotal. All federal executive authority is possessed by the president alone - the "Cabinet" is a cabinet of advisors and each individual can only act with the authority of the president. Cabinet members are appointed by the president and can be dismissed by him. A President Trump (ugh) will appoint people who share his (myopic and astigmatic) vision.
A President Trump (ugh) will relish opposition from the other powers of government. It will give him the opportunity to do what he does best - vilify, excoriate and insult those whom he perceives to stand in his way or fail to meet his expectations of "Americanism". He will present himself as the champion of the tribal reactionary. America will suffer. The world will suffer. India will suffer.
Look at what has happened just during the last day or so. He insults the parents of a dead American "hero" who happened to be a muslim. Does he try to extract himself from this gaffe? No, he appears blissfully ignorant of the pain he has caused.
We are overreacting.
Bollocks.
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I see a parallel in Trump's popularity with the UK Brexit vote; it is the ordinary working man making his voice heard, and his voice is saying that he is not really interested the aspirations and vision and progressive agendas of the political class. It's a selling out of long term vision for a narrower, short term, self interest.
Couldn't put it better.
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I think we all need to worry if a climate change denier becomes leader of the world's largest CO2 emitting economy. People in that position need to be able to listen to advice, weigh things up and consider long term policy whereas Mr Trump comes across more like some opinionated bloke down the golf club after a couple of beers. Maybe it's all front, calculated to appeal to a middle America tired of a politically correct political class; a man with a common touch, like Reagan, but with more hair.
I see a parallel in Trump's popularity with the UK Brexit vote; it is the ordinary working man making his voice heard, and his voice is saying that he is not really interested the aspirations and vision and progressive agendas of the political class. It's a selling out of long term vision for a narrower, short term, self interest.
Yes...I've said that in my post no 1. I also see a parallel between the Brexit vote and the Trump issue. All the status quo people don't like Brexit and Trump....based on rational thinking (so they believe!).
These are emotional issues and rationality is not always the important thing. That is also probably the way it should be. Sometimes going with the 'heart' is important. Rational ideas are not always right. Rationality can be linear and short sighted.
Anyway, we don't even know if Trump is going to be elected! So...it is all premature. If Trump does get elected...it'll be due to a majority vote and the others have to just lump it I suppose....a la Brexit! ;)
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What we do not know is how Indian media are treating the US presidential campaign. India is busy positioning itself as a major regional power and not give this process the same kind of attention and analysis as the UK media.
Here, I think, Sriram may be a little off target. In the US constitution the president IS pivotal. All federal executive authority is possessed by the president alone - the "Cabinet" is a cabinet of advisors and each individual can only act with the authority of the president. Cabinet members are appointed by the president and can be dismissed by him. A President Trump (ugh) will appoint people who share his (myopic and astigmatic) vision.
A President Trump (ugh) will relish opposition from the other powers of government. It will give him the opportunity to do what he does best - vilify, excoriate and insult those whom he perceives to stand in his way or fail to meet his expectations of "Americanism". He will present himself as the champion of the tribal reactionary. America will suffer. The world will suffer. India will suffer.
Look at what has happened just during the last day or so. He insults the parents of a dead American "hero" who happened to be a muslim. Does he try to extract himself from this gaffe? No, he appears blissfully ignorant of the pain he has caused.
Bollocks.
Oh... come on! America is not as influential as you seem to think. China, Russia, Japan, Saudi... all have leaders and policies that are not favored by many people.....and these are big influential countries. So what? Why is America so important?
Old equations are changing. In India we are not bothered who comes in America or Britain or Japan or Germany or France or China. Things will go on pretty much the same.
America, Japan and Europe will decline. China and India will grow. That's a given!
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Keith,
We are emotional beings. Rational thinking is just a tool we use now and then...and not a part of our being.
Like I said and like you also pointed out...every now and then we feel the need to do something different, something daring, something that will break the monotony. Enough of the same thing over and over again. Enough of the controls.
Sometimes it happens even in politics. If things get too prim and propah, too boring and predictable, we like to stir things up a bit. Some excitement. Take a chance and see what happens.
Someone strikes a cord about some issues that have been bothering us. Something emotional. Something primeval and fundamental. Then it can be very powerful and overpowering. Rationality is weak and tiresome in comparison.
Why do you think ISIS is so powerful? Why is religion in general so powerful?
Its not just about hate. Its about basic emotions being stirred up. It can make people feel alive and powerful.
Like with Hitler in WW2 and the holocaust?
I don't think we see radicals getting into power riding in on a wave of emotions as a good thing Sriram.
I think we have learnt this can be very damaging to other people's human rights.
Donald Trump tends to ride in on emotions and sentiments which in themselves are found worrying.
That's how Hitler got where he did, by promising to make Germany great again and of course it's always someone else's fault the country is held back.
Excitement often involves harming people and their livelihoods in some way.
The system doesn't always succeed in holding things back, sometimes the system becomes part of the problem.
:(
The problem is stability and peace often means boring and predictable, it's when it's gone you realise what you have lost.
There is an old Chinese curse that nails it.
" may you live in interesting times"
Some people don't like Brexit for the very reason it rocks the stability. Opens up perceived opportunities for the racist and white movements in this country, hence the rise in hate crime.
It's all " excitement " that's how they see it. It isn't good though, that excitement.
The opportunities Brexit may bring up, hopefully won't allow those people to feel powerful and alive as you put it, for much longer.
Hopefully most of the UK will rise to its opportunities without stooping to racism and nastiness.
Donald Trump concerns me because he doesn't seem to consider other people, he is a show off that scores points at the cost of other people's feelings.
His business reputation seems to be appallingly selfish with no consideration for others I've read some awful stories where he has ruthlessly almost put companies out of business, and has used and manipulated the law along with threats to duck out of agreements.
His values and mine seem to be at variance.
He isn't someone that can be trusted, his aim is to win, how he gets there doesn't matter as long as he cant be penalised for it.
For me, how someone gets there, is all.
This will effect other countries in that our countries will have to deal with him.
I'm not happy about that >:(
I wouldn't want to have to do business with Donald Trump.
I'm hoping Hilary Clinton gets in.
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Donald trump
But even as his companies did poorly, Mr. Trump did well. He put up little of his own money, shifted personal debts to the casinos and collected millions of dollars in salary, bonuses and other payments. The burden of his failures fell on investors and others who had bet on his business acumen.
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/12/nyregion/donald-trump-atlantic-city.html?_r=0
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/8/7/1409840/-Trump-s-Bankruptcies-A-lot-of-people-got-stuck-holding-the-bag-and-he-didn-t
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2016/06/09/donald-trump-unpaid-bills-republican-president-laswuits/85297274/
http://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21698613-what-small-businesses-owners-might-wish-know-about-mr-trump-scourge-not-saviour
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-us-2016-36936692
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I am believer in destiny. If things are predetermined, there is nothing we can do. Regardless of how much we fret and fume...that's the way it will go.
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I am believer in destiny. If things are predetermined, there is nothing we can do. Regardless of how much we fret and fume...that's the way it will go.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!
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Donald trump
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2016/06/09/donald-trump-unpaid-bills-republican-president-laswuits/85297274/
http://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21698613-what-small-businesses-owners-might-wish-know-about-mr-trump-scourge-not-saviour
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-us-2016-36936692
Rose...
Its true that Britain does have lot at stake in the US, more so because they have now cut themselves off from the EU. Their one true friend now is the US.....and any iffy leadership there can be worrying. Not so for most other countries. Makes no difference one way or the other.
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I am believer in destiny. If things are predetermined, there is nothing we can do. Regardless of how much we fret and fume...that's the way it will go.
Im a believer in fighting destiny, if it's wrong.
I'm certainly not going to accept something just because it is.
The whole point IMO is to get up and fight it.
Not resign yourself to it.
There may be nothing in the overall picture you can change, but it's important to stand up and fight the wrongness if you see it.
Accepting destiny is way to much a fatalistic way of looking at life for me.
If you don't like your destiny....... Change it!
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Im a believer in fighting destiny, if it's wrong.
I'm certainly not going to accept something just because it is.
The whole point IMO is to get up and fight it.
Not resign yourself to it.
There may be nothing in the overall picture you can change, but it's important to stand up and fight the wrongness if you see it.
? ? ? ?
You are positioning yourself outside destiny.....which is weird. Destiny 'decides' what is right and wrong. Not you and me.
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? ? ? ?
You are positioning yourself outside destiny.....which is weird. Destiny 'decides' what is right and wrong. Not you and me.
I've never heard that before.
"Destiny decides what's right and wrong"?
Destiny to me is just a future that is just thought of, as being unavoidable.
IMO it is me that decides what is right and wrong, if I see a series of events as unavoidable then it's up to me how I react to it.
So say the holocaust was destiny, it's up to me to fight the wrongness in it. ( or of one I encounter in the future)
Just because an event is inevitable, doesn't make it right.
I think I see it as important to my " path" in life, that I fight a perceived wrongness in any destiny.
Does that make sense?
In some ways I am independant of destiny.
Like everyone else, I just live through it and my only choices are how I react to things around me.
I guess it's just how I personally see my path through life.
???
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? ? ? ?
You are positioning yourself outside destiny.....which is weird. Destiny 'decides' what is right and wrong. Not you and me.
Destiny, Sriram? Do you really mean that everything is already mapped out for us and then we just passively accept it? Is a belief in destiny a feature of Indian culture? Do you think that you can change your destiny or is it fixed? If so, who does the fixing?
Destiny suggests a destination. How do we know whether we have arrived or not if we don't even know where we are going?
No. I decide what I want to achieve and how I am going to get it. Some things in my life I have strived for and I have achieved them. Some things I have abandoned - but I deliberately did so. If humanity had placed its trust in destiny we would still be living in caves.
And as for the UK, the USA and the EU, we have not left the EU yet, and it may be several years before we do - if we do. I am hoping that the USA will see that it deserves more than the odious, vacuous, obnoxious Donald Trump as its chief executive and works to ensure it happens.
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Destiny, Sriram? Do you really mean that everything is already mapped out for us and then we just passively accept it? Is a belief in destiny a feature of Indian culture? Do you think that you can change your destiny or is it fixed? If so, who does the fixing?
Destiny suggests a destination. How do we know whether we have arrived or not if we don't even know where we are going?
No. I decide what I want to achieve and how I am going to get it. Some things in my life I have strived for and I have achieved them. Some things I have abandoned - but I deliberately did so. If humanity had placed its trust in destiny we would still be living in caves.
And as for the UK, the USA and the EU, we have not left the EU yet, and it may be several years before we do - if we do. I am hoping that the USA will see that it deserves more than the odious, vacuous, obnoxious Donald Trump as its chief executive and works to ensure it happens.
Alright! Destiny is a subject that is outside the scope of this discussion...and is a very big subject in itself. So lets leave that aside.
About Trump....let us see what happens and then react.
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Destiny, Sriram? Do you really mean that everything is already mapped out for us and then we just passively accept it? Is a belief in destiny a feature of Indian culture? Do you think that you can change your destiny or is it fixed? If so, who does the fixing?
Destiny suggests a destination. How do we know whether we have arrived or not if we don't even know where we are going?
No. I decide what I want to achieve and how I am going to get it. Some things in my life I have strived for and I have achieved them. Some things I have abandoned - but I deliberately did so. If humanity had placed its trust in destiny we would still be living in caves.
And as for the UK, the USA and the EU, we have not left the EU yet, and it may be several years before we do - if we do. I am hoping that the USA will see that it deserves more than the odious, vacuous, obnoxious Donald Trump as its chief executive and works to ensure it happens.
Harrowby
I'd love to explore destiny further and your post asks all the right questions.
You could start a new thread with it :)
Or shall I?
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Be my guest Rose. Give it a go.
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Ok destiny, is now on religion and ethics
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Wi-kid!
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These are emotional issues and rationality is not always the important thing. That is also probably the way it should be.
No that's bollocks. When it comes to who runs the most powerful country on Earth, there really should be no room for emotion. Emotion is what led George W Bush into the Iraq war.
Sometimes going with the 'heart' is important. Rational ideas are not always right. Rationality can be linear and short sighted.
Bullshit. Rationality is frequently more right than emotion.
Anyway, we don't even know if Trump is going to be elected!
Rationality tells us he won't be but if people vote on their emotion there might be an almighty fuck up.
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Trump is now claiming the Presidential election will be rigged. I bet if the worst happens and he wins, he will say it was free and fair!
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Trump is now claiming the Presidential election will be rigged. I bet if the worst happens and he wins, he will say it was free and fair!
Of course
The man is so afraid of failure he's getting his excuses ready.
It's always going to be someone else's fault.
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Of course
The man is so afraid of failure he's getting his excuses ready.
It's always going to be someone else's fault.
I would suggest that it's playing on the accusations from Bernie Sanders supporters that the Democratic nomination was corrupt, and the ongoing portrayal of Hilary as a crook. This isn't about losing, this is about making sure people think Hilary might fix this, and indeed that some Republicans might help by speaking against him.
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I am believer in destiny. If things are predetermined, there is nothing we can do. Regardless of how much we fret and fume...that's the way it will go.
I find that a very depressing view of life Sriram - that we just have to follow the predetermined track right up to the point of our demise.
I see life more like a pinball machine - although it is tempting just to follow the track that seems inevitable - we can choose to press the 'nudge' buttons at critical moments.
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I suppose the thing that really worries me about Trump is that he appears to be connecting with as many Americans as it seems he is.
Mind you, the same applies to Hilary, but she is the least bad choice of the two we currently have. Pity that the Democrats didn't/don't have the guts to go with a Bernie Sanders-type candidate.
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I suppose the thing that really worries me about Trump is that he appears to be connecting with as many Americans as it seems he is.
Mind you, the same applies to Hilary, but she is the least bad choice of the two we currently have. Pity that the Democrats didn't/don't have the guts to go with a Bernie Sanders-type candidate.
I agree. The trouble with Sanders is that he is into his 70s; he looked a bit past it, and didn't look as if he could stay the course if he became President.
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Age/ageism was a factor? Doubt it really. Democrats are "liberal" rather than "left wing" and the party bigwigs wouldn't want a socialist candidate.
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I see the nasty Farage is supporting the equally nasty Trump, racist birds of a feather!
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If I was a Yank I wouldn't vote for either candidate, but is Trump any worse than Bush, Obama or Clinton? The answer is no. From an international perspective Obama and Clinton are no better than Bush. Nay, they didn't even calm things down but went ever deeper into the Middle-East, namely Lybia and Syria, caused ISIS, created the refugee crisis and helped bring a group of neo-fascists into power in Ukraine.
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If I was a Yank I wouldn't vote for either candidate, but is Trump any worse than Bush, Obama or Clinton? The answer is no. From an international perspective Obama and Clinton are no better than Bush. Nay, they didn't even calm things down but went ever deeper into the Middle-East, namely Lybia and Syria, caused ISIS, created the refugee crisis and helped bring a group of neo-fascists into power in Ukraine.
Nothing to do with Russia, no, sirree, just observing going noting, no bombing, no invading tra la, tra la
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And your point is? Do you even have one?
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And your point is? Do you even have one?
That you ignore Russia's actions continually. Was fairly obvious. From last post.
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I never said Russia was without blame. Likewise I could ask why you ignore the West's blatant involvement. But really this is just a side issue. My point was that Trump is no worse than Bush, Obama and Clinton. Still wouldn't vote for him. He's still a neo-liberal.
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I never said Russia was without blame. Likewise I could ask why you ignore the West's blatant involvement. But really this is just a side issue. My point was that Trump is no worse than Bush, Obama and Clinton. Still wouldn't vote for him. He's still a neo-liberal.
except he seems uncontrolled and openly racist and talks nonsense about walls. I doubt he is a neo liberal just a random shouter
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If I was a Yank I wouldn't vote for either candidate, but is Trump any worse than Bush, Obama or Clinton? The answer is no. From an international perspective Obama and Clinton are no better than Bush. Nay, they didn't even calm things down but went ever deeper into the Middle-East, namely Lybia and Syria, caused ISIS, created the refugee crisis and helped bring a group of neo-fascists into power in Ukraine.
If you were a 'Yank' you would have a totally different world view; to many Americans Trump is a saviour. From the perspective of the rest of the 'Western World' he is potentially a very dangerous character - but who knows? we live in rapidly changing times. Is it better to intervene militarily in a conflict or not - who knows?, there are consequences either way.
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Farage seems to have gone down well with Trump supporters in the USA. He addressed a Republican party rally to resounding applause, Trump welcomed him and his 'message of hope'. So Le Farage lives on and has found a kindred spirit ::).
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If you were a 'Yank' you would have a totally different world view; to many Americans Trump is a savoir.
I'm puzzled. No way can I see Trump as a savoir. Did you mean saviour?
You may find this relevant: http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-37021991
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I'm puzzled. No way can I see Trump as a savoir. Did you mean saviour?
You may find this relevant: http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-37021991
Damn that spell checker!
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I never said Russia was without blame. Likewise I could ask why you ignore the West's blatant involvement. But really this is just a side issue. My point was that Trump is no worse than Bush, Obama and Clinton. Still wouldn't vote for him. He's still a neo-liberal.
Trump is dangerous, he appears to have mental health problems, and would put the whole world in jeopardy if he was President, imo. Obama is one of the best Presidents in recent times.
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Trump is dangerous, he appears to have mental health problems, and would put the whole world in jeopardy if he was President, imo. Obama is one of the best Presidents in recent times.
why do think Obama has been a good president?
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why do think Obama has been a good president?
Yes ! There are quite a few links describing how but here's one with citations.
http://pleasecutthecrap.com/obama-accomplishments/
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why do think Obama has been a good president?
He seems to want to reform a number of things which are wrong with the US like their crazy gun laws and their healthcare. It is a great pity he doesn't get much more support for them from congress and the senate.
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I don't think Donald Trump has mental health problems (at least not more than most), he has just tapped into a particular zeitgeist, rather like Nigel Farage has done in our little country. Neither do I think he is racist on a personal level. It's all about pandering to the electorate, or a particular section of that at a given time. When this is all over and Mr Trump goes back to doing what he is best at, we'll be able to see that clearly.
I think it would be quite a different matter if he eventually became President but I'm hopeful that will not happen.
Obama has been a great President, a tough act to follow. Yes, people are disappointed he hasn't achieved more but what president of the United States can push forward their ideology as if they stand alone? No president is completely independent. In all honesty, it night be very dangerous if she/he was. Obama has done well and will go down in history as a being a lot more than the first black person to hold the office, something most of us have virtually forgotten.
(Earlier on someone asked why Ad_O was not criticising Russia. Russia was not being discussed at that time which is as good a reason as any but do people think, because, eg, Ad_O is Orthodox, that he considers Russia to be above criticism? Ridiculous, like saying Anglicans can never say anything against UK.)
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He seems to want to reform a number of things which are wrong with the US like their crazy gun laws and their healthcare. It is a great pity he doesn't get much more support for them from congress and the senate.
so one of the things you think make him one of the best presidents in recent times is that he wasn't able to do anything on.
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I think Sarah Palin AKA Bernadette from TBBT is frightened Donald might move to the left on immigration.
Donald I think likes the rally's etc which cease after the election so I can see disappointment if he were to win election.
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I don't think Donald Trump has mental health problems (at least not more than most), he has just tapped into a particular zeitgeist, rather like Nigel Farage has done in our little country. Neither do I think he is racist on a personal level. It's all about pandering to the electorate, or a particular section of that at a given time. When this is all over and Mr Trump goes back to doing what he is best at, we'll be able to see that clearly.
I think it would be quite a different matter if he eventually became President but I'm hopeful that will not happen.
Obama has been a great President, a tough act to follow. Yes, people are disappointed he hasn't achieved more but what president of the United States can push forward their ideology as if they stand alone? No president is completely independent. In all honesty, it night be very dangerous if she/he was. Obama has done well and will go down in history as a being a lot more than the first black person to hold the office, something most of us have virtually forgotten.
(Earlier on someone asked why Ad_O was not criticising Russia. Russia was not being discussed at that time which is as good a reason as any but do people think, because, eg, Ad_O is Orthodox, that he considers Russia to be above criticism? Ridiculous, like saying Anglicans can never say anything against UK.)
You seem to be referring to me since I was the one that mentioned Russia. First I didn't ask ad_o why he didn't criticise Russia, rather I raised the point that where he had effectively blamed all of the current issues in the Middle East and Ukraine on America this would be incorrect and that Russia also had some responsibility.
Secondly I didn't do it because of his religion but because of his history of posting pro Russian and anti American comments.
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Yes ! There are quite a few links describing how but here's one with citations.
http://pleasecutthecrap.com/obama-accomplishments/
This list is very impressive.
I think that I would add that part of his greatness is that he is a man of transparent decency, an honourable man, a clearly loving husband and father. These are qualities that set him out from many of his predecessors.
Perhaps being preceded by George W Bush, with his business connections and seeming lack of intelligence, means that he would not have had to try very hard to appear to be good, but I think that Barack Obama's great strength is that he is a fine human being.
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-us-2016-37203285
Trump's doctor should be struck off, Trump is mentally unstable if the way he behaves is an indication of his mental health!
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-us-2016-37203285
Trump's doctor should be struck off, Trump is mentally unstable if the way he behaves is an indication of his mental health!
what is your expertise in mental health matters for you to make such a diagnosis?
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That's quite funny (the link), but I don't see Trump as mentally ill.
(NS, I get your point about Russia etc)
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I see the nasty Farage is supporting the equally nasty Trump, racist birds of a feather!
Talking more bollocks Floo!!!
He is not supporting Trump, if you listen to his speech at the meeting it is about how the elites/bankers have destroyed the peoples' livelihoods and disenfranchised their lives from their societies' standards of living. This group 'peoples' I assume includes you, judging by your Leftie antics so you should be supporting those who want to destroy the venal political elites and bankers.
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Farage seems to have gone down well with Trump supporters in the USA. He addressed a Republican party rally to resounding applause, Trump welcomed him and his 'message of hope'. So Le Farage lives on and has found a kindred spirit ::).
Did you actually listen to Farage's speech? Or is this just more bollocks from the Lefties.
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so one of the things you think make him one of the best presidents in recent times is that he wasn't able to do anything on.
He's murdered thousands of innocent people with his drone attacks, give the man his due - what do you think the Nobel peace prize was for?
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Talking more bollocks Floo!!!
He is not supporting Trump, if you listen to his speech at the meeting it is about how the elites/bankers have destroyed the peoples' livelihoods and disenfranchised their lives from their societies' standards of living. This group 'peoples' I assume includes you, judging by your Leftie antics so you should be supporting those who want to destroy the venal political elites and bankers.
I am far from left wing, but I detest racists like the evil Trump and Farage!
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I am far from left wing, but I detest racists like the evil Trump and Farage!
People like you don't even know what racist means. It's just used as a term of abuse at anything that upsets your little mind.
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Did you actually listen to Farage's speech? Or is this just more bollocks from the Lefties.
I read some newspaper reports on the internet Jack, I would not comment on something if I hadn't read about it. Here is one news report that I've just read, I would hardly call the Express "Lefty" :
http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/703774/Nigel-Farage-why-support-Donald-Trump-Brexit-leader-rally-US-election-Republican-Ukip
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People like you don't even know what racist means. It's just used as a term of abuse at anything that upsets your little mind.
How do you define racism?
I am well aware of what racism is, and the nastiness of evil racist bigots. One of my adopted sons is black!
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Thank goodness he has you and husband and family to give him lots of TLC, floo.
I believe Farage is racist though I can't prove it but I don't think Trump is, he has just tapped into the current mood of (parts of) his country. In fairness, so has Farage but he'd possibly be like that anyway.
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Thank goodness he has you and husband and family to give him lots of TLC, floo.
I believe Farage is racist though I can't prove it but I don't think Trump is, he has just tapped into the current mood of (parts of) his country. In fairness, so has Farage but he'd possibly be like that anyway.
We haven't seen our son for about five years. There was a parting of the ways, nothing to do with his race, I hasten to add. We do speak on the phone occasionally though.
Trump comments about ethnic minorities are racist. UKIP is the party of racism.
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I am not following this thread, but every time I hear the title, I think, 'Is there anything that doesn't bother you about Trump?'' I cannot think of a single redeeming feature.
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I quite enjoyed him on the 'Apprentice USA', when I watched that, his name meant little to me; I knew he was very rich and that's about all.
Then I saw him on TV saying Obama wasn't an American and I thought he was potty.
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I am not following this thread, but every time I hear the title, I think, 'Is there anything that doesn't bother you about Trump?'' I cannot think of a single redeeming feature.
Nor can I.
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One of the things that would concern me is this: Trump has boasted that he can 'do business' with Putin, and maybe Putin would go along with that to an extent, but Putin is a pretty slippery customer - so what would Trumps reaction be if he realises he has been double-crossed?
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One of the things that would concern me is this: Trump has boasted that he can 'do business' with Putin, and maybe Putin would go along with that to an extent, but Putin is a pretty slippery customer - so what would Trumps reaction be if he realises he has been double-crossed?
A good question, particularly since they both appear to be obsessed with similar objectives:
Trump: "to make America great again."
Putin: to make Russia great again!
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A good question, particularly since they both appear to be obsessed with similar objectives:
Trump: "to make America great again."
Putin: to make Russia great again!
Maybe a bit like Stalin and Hitler?
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Maybe a bit like Stalin and Hitler?
Yep!
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is Trump any worse than Bush, Obama or Clinton? The answer is
The answer is absolutely yes. Trump tramples over everybody to get his own way. He has a smaller attention span than a goldfish and he is the most divisive politician ever to run for president as a candidate for one of the two main parties.
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Trump is not particularly clever and I can imagine Putin being able to pull more than one over on him. Scary really.
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Trump is not particularly clever and I can imagine Putin being able to pull more than one over on him. Scary really.
I agree.
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Trump is not particularly clever and I can imagine Putin being able to pull more than one over on him. Scary really.
Yes, and what does the stupid man do when he realises that he has been made a fool of? Very scary
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I read some newspaper reports on the internet Jack, I would not comment on something if I hadn't read about it. Here is one news report that I've just read, I would hardly call the Express "Lefty" :
http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/703774/Nigel-Farage-why-support-Donald-Trump-Brexit-leader-rally-US-election-Republican-Ukip
The Express have got it wrong. If you listen to the speech he doesn't endorse Trump. If you want a link to the speech I'll give you one but I've found that you lot don't bother with the links I give from UKIP.
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How do you define racism?
I am well aware of what racism is, and the nastiness of evil racist bigots. One of my adopted sons is black!
Racism is an attitude that is constant for the racist where ever they are in the world. So for example the Nazis didn't like Jews where ever they were. Some Nazis came to Britain before the war and aired their hatred of them, even British Jews.
People here who object to immigrants swarming into our country are not racist because they don't have that attitude when they are abroad because they have no emotional tie to the foreign country they are in. People who they would restrict coming to the UK, and so be bias against them, they would happily socialise with in that persons own country. A racist doesn't do that, they look down on those they are racist against regardless of where they are and treat them with a contempt that is unconscionable.
People have a right to be concerned with their society, country and culture and neighbourhood; the place they call home.
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Yes, and what does the stupid man do when he realises that he has been made a fool of? Very scary
He farts. :-[
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The Express have got it wrong. If you listen to the speech he doesn't endorse Trump. If you want a link to the speech I'll give you one but I've found that you lot don't bother with the links I give from UKIP.
It wasn't just the Express Jack, that was the last thing I read but I will listen to the speech. No need to post UKIP links (which many wouldn't want to open), there must be a youtube if I search.
Here it is, in its entirety :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kE_XDS1zLJw
thaat
Seen and listened now: Farage certainly was supporting Trump. How anyone would think otherwise is beyond me! It takes a little while for him to get into stride but there's no doubt why he is speaking.
He is quite a good speaker, I'll give him that.
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Racism is an attitude that is constant for the racist where ever they are in the world. So for example the Nazis didn't like Jews where ever they were. Some Nazis came to Britain before the war and aired their hatred of them, even British Jews.
People here who object to immigrants swarming into our country are not racist because they don't have that attitude when they are abroad because they have no emotional tie to the foreign country they are in. People who they would restrict coming to the UK, and so be bias against them, they would happily socialise with in that persons own country. A racist doesn't do that, they look down on those they are racist against regardless of where they are and treat them with a contempt that is unconscionable.
People have a right to be concerned with their society, country and culture and neighbourhood; the place they call home.
Most of our ancestors were immigrants once!
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It wasn't just the Express Jack, that was the last thing I read but I will listen to the speech. No need to post UKIP links (which many wouldn't want to open), there must be a youtube if I search.
Here it is, in its entirety :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kE_XDS1zLJw
thaat
Seen and listened now: Farage certainly was supporting Trump. How anyone would think otherwise is beyond me! It takes a little while for him to get into stride but there's no doubt why he is speaking.
He is quite a good speaker, I'll give him that.
I challenge you to show me where Farage endorses Trump.
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Most of our ancestors were immigrants once!
That's a stupid argument and misses the point I made. Because of your weak and insipid response I take it you haven't an intelligent repost and essentially you concede that I am right, being that most of your posts are just emotional bluster.
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I challenge you to show me where Farage endorses Trump.
Huh?
Farage goes to the USA and speaks at one of Trump's rallies and you think he doesn't endorse Trump? What planet are you on?
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Huh?
Farage goes to the USA and speaks at one of Trump's rallies and you think he doesn't endorse Trump? What planet are you on?
I challenge you to listen to the speech and point out where he endorses Trump.
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oh ffs Jack give it up. OK he didn't use the words "I endorse the trumpeteer" but in every other way it was an endorsement.
"I wouldn't vote for Hilary if you paid me"
So who would he vote for in what is essentially a two horse race?
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Jack, Farage does endorse Trump. I listened to his speech very carefully and it was obvious. As Trent has quoted, he said, "I wouldn't vote for Hilary if you paid me". Anyway why are you bothered whether or not Farage supports Donald Trump?
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Anyway why are you bothered whether or not Farage supports Donald Trump?
I suspect because Jack is a huge admirer of Nige he is somewhat compromised because even he can see Trump for the out and out nutter he is. This therefore doesn't compute.
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They have some shared ideals, no doubt about that. However Nigel's support of Donald doesn't make any difference to us over here.
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I challenge you to listen to the speech and point out where he endorses Trump.
He was at Trump's rally speaking in support of Trump. You don't have to say the words "I endorse bellend Trump" to endorse him.
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They have some shared ideals, no doubt about that. However Nigel's support of Donald doesn't make any difference to us over here.
Correct. We already knew he was a shit head.
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I challenge you to show me where Farage endorses Trump.
Speaking at a Trump rally is a de facto endorsement
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That's a stupid argument and misses the point I made. Because of your weak and insipid response I take it you haven't an intelligent repost and essentially you concede that I am right, being that most of your posts are just emotional bluster.
Do you make any valid points or are they all extreme right wing yowls?
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oh ffs Jack give it up. OK he didn't use the words "I endorse the trumpeteer" but in every other way it was an endorsement.
"I wouldn't vote for Hilary if you paid me"
So who would he vote for in what is essentially a two horse race?
No he did not endorse Trump as you concede.
...and it is not a two horse race...
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Jack, Farage does endorse Trump. I listened to his speech very carefully and it was obvious. As Trent has quoted, he said, "I wouldn't vote for Hilary if you paid me". Anyway why are you bothered whether or not Farage supports Donald Trump?
No he did not.
I'm not, you lot are, by trying to twist the truth!!!
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No he did not endorse Trump as you concede.
...and it is not a two horse race...
The Oxford dictionary defines 'Endorse' as:
"to make a public statement of your approval or support for something or someone:"
And the words that he was using at the Trump rally certainly sounded pretty supportive.
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He was at Trump's rally speaking in support of Trump. You don't have to say the words "I endorse bellend Trump" to endorse him.
No he was not. If you listen to the speech it will give you the blindingly obvious clue why he was there. But because you have brained washed yourself with your Leftie politically correct crap you're too stupid and blind to see it.
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The Oxford dictionary defines 'Endorse' as:
"to make a public statement of your approval or support for something or someone:"
And the words that he was using at the Trump rally certainly sounded pretty supportive.
They did sound very supportive.
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Speaking at a Trump rally is a de facto endorsement
No it is not. He was there for another reason which is clearly made apparent by the content of his speech.
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Do you make any valid points or are they all extreme right wing yowls?
Proof that you have lost the argument but too full of hubris to admit it.
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The Oxford dictionary defines 'Endorse' as:
"to make a public statement of your approval or support for something or someone:"
And the words that he was using at the Trump rally certainly sounded pretty supportive.
And that definition proves that Farage didn't endorse Trump.
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No it is not. He was there for another reason which is clearly made apparent by the content of his speech.
What was this other reason then?
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No it is not. He was there for another reason which is clearly made apparent by the content of his speech.
Would you please be so kind as to tell us what the other reason was, Jack, being as we have all listened to the speech and cannot see what is apparent to you. Thank you in advance.
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What was this other reason then?
Listen to the speech and use your brain and work it out for yourself - it'll be far more rewarding to do that than for me to tell you. I've mentioned this issue many time on this forum...
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Listen to the speech and use your brain and work it out for yourself - it'll be far more rewarding to do that than for me to tell you. I've mentioned this issue many time on this forum...
Evasion noted. We will assume you do not actually have another reason until it is provided.
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And that definition proves that Farage didn't endorse Trump.
Are you honestly saying that you do not consider this speech 'supportive' ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oj4K9fr_WgY
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No it is not. He was there for another reason which is clearly made apparent by the content of his speech.
makes no difference. He could have declared that he was there to be an artichoke, Trump rally = supporting Trump
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Listen to the speech and use your brain and work it out for yourself - it'll be far more rewarding to do that than for me to tell you. I've mentioned this issue many time on this forum...
are you channelling Hope?
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Evasion noted. We will assume you do not actually have another reason until it is provided.
I'm trying to educate you to use your intelligence and get you out of this brainwashing politically correct bollocks. You won't learn unless you try.
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Are you honestly saying that you do not consider this speech 'supportive' ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oj4K9fr_WgY
Yes. Farage does not endorse Trump in anyway in the US elections.
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makes no difference. He could have declared that he was there to be an artichoke, Trump rally = supporting Trump
Nope! It's a bigger picture than that.
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I'm trying to educate you to use your intelligence and get you out of this brainwashing politically correct bollocks. You won't learn unless you try.
Oh please teacher help me - if you do I'll bring you a nice green apple from home.
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Oh please teacher help me - if you do I'll bring you a nice green apple from home.
Some times the only way is tough love!
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Some times the only way is tough love!
So no answer then. If a pupil asks for an explanation when he fails to see the point a good teacher would explain. You are not a good teacher.
Tell you what why don't you tell me why Nige was at the rally encouraging the troops to get their walking boots on for a man who has been declared bankrupt four times.
Do you think Nige should be encouraging Americans to support a man who cannot by all accounts organise a piss up in a brewery - let alone be allowed to run one of the largest economies in the world.
I'd be interested in your answers.
PS I hope the reference to a piss up in a brewery doesn't upset your PC notions about me.
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So no answer then. If a pupil asks for an explanation when he fails to see the point a good teacher would explain. You are not a good teacher.
Tell you what why don't you tell me why Nige was at the rally encouraging the troops to get their walking boots on for a man who has been declared bankrupt four times.
Do you think Nige should be encouraging Americans to support a man who cannot by all accounts organise a piss up in a brewery - let alone be allowed to run one of the largest economies in the world.
I'd be interested in your answers.
PS I hope the reference to a piss up in a brewery doesn't upset your PC notions about me.
Farage's distain for the EU is that it is a bunch of elites feathering their own beds. The people have been disenfranchised by these venal elites and as they see what is going on they are beginning to act against them. Many in the US are also fed up with the ruling classes hence why Trump has done so well, consider... Farage would love to see these elites crumble away and will do anything to rally that cause.
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Listen to the speech and use your brain and work it out for yourself
I listened to the speech and worked out that he is endorsing Trump.
it'll be far more rewarding to do that than for me to tell you.
In other words you haven't thought of a credible answer yet.
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Farage's distain for the EU is that it is a bunch of elites feathering their own beds.
What like that MEP who disagrees with the concept of the EU and yet feathers his own bed with an MEP's salary and expenses. What is his name now...? Oh yes: Nigel Farage. Perhaps that is his motivation: his own self loathing.
Farage would love to see these elites crumble away and will do anything to rally that cause.
Which is his reason for endorsing Trump - a venal fat cat feathering his own bed by swindling those who work for him.
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Farage's distain for the EU is that it is a bunch of elites feathering their own beds. The people have been disenfranchised by these venal elites and as they see what is going on they are beginning to act against them. Many in the US are also fed up with the ruling classes hence why Trump has done so well, consider... Farage would love to see these elites crumble away and will do anything to rally that cause.
is that why the biggest donors to UKIP are all ex Tory donors?
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Farage's distain for the EU is that it is a bunch of elites feathering their own beds. The people have been disenfranchised by these venal elites and as they see what is going on they are beginning to act against them. Many in the US are also fed up with the ruling classes hence why Trump has done so well, consider... Farage would love to see these elites crumble away and will do anything to rally that cause.
So funny. You haven't yet worked out that both Nige and Trump are part of the elite.
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I listened to the speech and worked out that he is endorsing Trump.
In other words you haven't thought of a credible answer yet.
See #130
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See #130
See #132
Also #133 and #134
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is that why the biggest donors to UKIP are all ex Tory donors?
Your point being....
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So funny. You haven't yet worked out that both Nige and Trump are part of the elite.
And there you show your ignorance.
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And there you show your ignorance.
I think you'll find that's not me. You will have to look closer to home for that particular trait.
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What like that MEP who disagrees with the concept of the EU and yet feathers his own bed with an MEP's salary and expenses. What is his name now...? Oh yes: Nigel Farage. Perhaps that is his motivation: his own self loathing.
Which is his reason for endorsing Trump - a venal fat cat feathering his own bed by swindling those who work for him.
In your stupidity you're missing the bigger picture.
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And there you show your ignorance.
Donald Trump: billionaire property tycoon
Nigel Farage: ex merchant banker and Euro fat cat.
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In your stupidity you're missing the bigger picture.
I'm only missing the bigger picture because it is imaginary. If there really was a credible big picture, you'd being telling us what it is instead of acting so coy.
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I'm only missing the bigger picture because it is imaginary. If there really was a credible big picture, you'd being telling us what it is instead of acting so coy.
I've told you lot a thousand times!!!
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I've told you lot a thousand times!!!
You are Hope and I claim my five pounds.
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I have listened to the speech again and cannot see that Farage had any motive other than endorsing Trump. If I am ignorant, so be it, you could educate me and point out what I obviously cannot see.
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I have listened to the speech again and cannot see that Farage had any motive other than endorsing Trump. If I am ignorant, so be it, you could educate me and point out what I obviously cannot see.
I've explained it in #130. It's about understanding where Farage has been coming from over the years*, i.e. adding in the details that are there between the lines. If you are bias and pig headed, and have not followed his argument over the years, then you won't be able to see it.
* no doubt some twat will come up with some stupid response to that.
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I've explained it in #130. It's about understanding where Farage has been coming from over the years*, i.e. adding in the details that are there between the lines. If you are bias and pig headed, and have not followed his argument over the years, then you won't be able to see it.
* no doubt some twat will come up with some stupid response to that.
So rather than listen to the words that he actually says, we should 'add the details' necessary to make it sound as if he isn't endorsing Trump? ::)
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... and I claim my five pounds.
I'm afraid that both Farage and Trump weigh far more than 5 pounds. You could always do a Shylock/Merchant of Venice ploy.
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I've explained it in #130. It's about understanding where Farage has been coming from over the years*, i.e. adding in the details that are there between the lines. If you are bias and pig headed, and have not followed his argument over the years, then you won't be able to see it.
* no doubt some twat will come up with some stupid response to that.
Well I get that his overriding ambition for twenty years or so was to take the UK out of the EU and, having achieved that, he resigned as UKIP leader.
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See #130
which says nothing to avoid Trump rally - Support Trump. What colour is the sky in your world?
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Your point being....
if you think Tory donors don't support elites, .. .
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It's about understanding where Farage has been coming from over the years*,
He's coming from being an ex-merchant banker with his snout in the trough of the EU gravy train.
* no doubt some twat will come up with some stupid response to that.
I came up with the true response which is better than you have managed with your mythical grand plan.
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he resigned as UKIP leader.
But not as an MEP because it pays better and you don't have to engage in damage control all the time.
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Why can't Knave understand what is obvious to the rest of us, the love affair between Farage and Trump who come out of the same rotten mould? Trump is still on about building a huge wall across the Mexican border to deter migrants. How much would that cost the US tax payer if such a structure was possible? Maybe Farage would like to see a Great Channel Wall! :D
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But not as an MEP because it pays better and you don't have to engage in damage control all the time.
It's really quite ironic that Farage 'Remains' an MEP.
Floo, Trump is talks a lot of hot air, in reality he would not be able to build a wall across the Mexican border. Though he has quite a lot of support that would be too huge an undertaking, as well as cost he'd face enormous opposition. He might like to build one in his dreams.
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It's really quite ironic that Farage 'Remains' an MEP.
Floo, Trump is talks a lot of hot air, in reality he would not be able to build a wall across the Mexican border. Though he has quite a lot of support that would be too huge an undertaking, as well as cost he'd face enormous opposition. He might like to build one in his dreams.
Farage doesn't want to lose his gravy train!
Let's just hope the American people realise Trump is talking out of the seat of his pants!
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Farage doesn't want to lose his gravy train!
Let's just hope the American people realise Trump is talking out of the seat of his pants!
What bothers me is the otherwise sensible Americans who hate Hilary Clinton to the point where they will vote for Donald Trump.
:o
This morning on the news Donald Trump was talking about throwing out any undocumented immigrants.
First they have to find them, then they have to sort out who is and who isn't American.
As long as it's not, you look faintly non white who said you could be here?
It's such a big country how are they going to monitor who is a natural immigrant and who isn't ?
After all apart from the native Americans they are all flippin immigrants.
He is aiming his election at a white audience IMO.
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Without doubt, Rose. It's all too ridiculous because he will not be able to achieve his objectives if he is (perish the thought) elected, but he is whipping up a lot of emotional support amongst American blue collar workers. I suppose they feel he and they have something in common whereas, in reality, they do not, they are poles apart in every conceivable way (background, education, money etc) and, in personal life and business dealings, Trump doesn't give a monkey's what colour someone is.
If Mr Trump does become President the collective disappointment will be so much greater than that felt by Obama supporters, at least no-one can say Obama has been dishonest or hasn't tried. However I doubt Trump cares about that, he is on such an ego trip.
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What bothers me is the otherwise sensible Americans who hate Hilary Clinton to the point where they will vote for Donald Trump.
:o
This morning on the news Donald Trump was talking about throwing out any undocumented immigrants.
First they have to find them, then they have to sort out who is and who isn't American.
As long as it's not, you look faintly non white who said you could be here?
It's such a big country how are they going to monitor who is a natural immigrant and who isn't ?
After all apart from the native Americans they are all flippin immigrants.
He is aiming his election at a white audience IMO.
Anyone who votes for Trump doesn't have an ounce of sense, he appeals to racists and anti-gays.
Of course all white Americans ancestors were immigrants at one time.
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I thought of Trump today I'm having a more powerful extractor fan fitted into our bathroom and I thought if Trump got too near to it, it might whip up his taupe, it's a worry, I'm getting a bit thin on top now; the things you have to worry about as you get older, I don't know?
ippy
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Trump seems to get more barking mad with each utterance. I watched his latest ravings on the lunchtime news. He claims Mexico will pay for his wall, but they haven't discussed it yet!
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The Mexicans could pay for the wall and put little sections of bricks with no cement around them in certain places.
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The Mexicans could pay for the wall and put little sections of bricks with no cement around them in certain places.
I think you'll find you've forgotten about the size of their hats Brownie.
ippy
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No it is not. He was there for another reason which is clearly made apparent by the content of his speech.
What Jack is saying is that Farage's speech was about recognising that the bankers and global corporatism are behind everything, and that we need to wake-up to this, unite, and beat them at their own game.
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I doubt anyone at the rally listening to Nigel Farage got that point, SP, and I doubt that is the subtle meaning that Jack was hinting at though he will correct me if am wrong.
Trump and Farage are representative of those who control everything of course and I doubt the audience gave that a thought either.
So Trump and Farage will join forces to unite everyone to beat themselves at their own game (with themselves at the helm of course)? Laughable really.
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I doubt anyone at the rally listening to Nigel Farage got that point, SP, and I doubt that is the subtle meaning that Jack was hinting at though he will correct me if am wrong.
Trump and Farage are representative of those who control everything of course and I doubt the audience gave that a thought either.
So Trump and Farage will join forces to unite everyone to beat themselves at their own game (with themselves at the helm of course)? Laughable really.
I disagree, Brownie. I'm sure that many listening to Farage's speech recognised what he was saying.
They are, of course, both controlled opposition.
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What Jack is saying is that Farage's speech was about recognising that the bankers and global corporatism are behind everything, and that we need to wake-up to this, unite, and beat them at their own game.
And this from an ex hedge manager who supports less regulation
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I disagree, Brownie. I'm sure that many listening to Farage's speech recognised what he was saying.
They are, of course, both controlled opposition.
You're entitled to you opinion of course and you may be right for all I know but it would be interesting to know from where you get the information behind the opinions.
Are Nigel Farage and Donald Trump secretly shape changing lizards I wonder, and are we ready for a Worldwide Wakeup?
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You're entitled to you opinion of course and you may be right for all I know but it would be interesting to know from where you get the information behind the opinions.
Are Nigel Farage and Donald Trump secretly shape changing lizards I wonder, and are we ready for a Worldwide Wakeup?
Re opinions.... from various parts of the internet.
Many are waking up. But it's a gradual process (probably just as well). And folk come to it in their own time.
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Brownie, for what it's worth, I'm not keen on Trump or Hillary.
For the life of me, I can't see how a nation, the size of the USA, can only come up with these two as presidential candidates.
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Re opinions.... from various parts of the internet.
Many are waking up. But it's a gradual process (probably just as well). And folk come to it in their own time.
especially if they are anti Semitic
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Trump and Farage aren't anti-semitic, as far as I know. Neither are they Jewish so they wouldn't inspire antisemitism. Therefore - I don't follow the reference to antisemitism.
I do remember seeing something a while ago about Trump supporting Israel - so he isn't antisemitic, unless that was just another vote catching publicity stunt.
It does seem odd in a country where the population is generally so politically minded in comparison to ours, that only two candidates have any prominence.
(David Icke and the like are having a field day.)
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Trump and Farage aren't anti-semitic, as far as I know. Neither are they Jewish so they wouldn't inspire antisemitism. Therefore - I don't follow the reference to antisemitism.
I do remember seeing something a while ago about Trump supporting Israel - so he isn't antisemitic, unless that was just another vote catching publicity stunt.
It does seem odd in a country where the population is generally so politically minded in comparison to ours, that only two candidates have any prominence.
(David Icke and the like are having a field day.)
no but Sweetpea is, and thinks they are puppets of world orders run by Rothschilds, but just referred to as Steins
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It does seem odd in a country where the population is generally so politically minded in comparison to ours, that only two candidates have any prominence.
I think that is perhaps a perception rather than a fact - voter turnout in presidential elections is actually lower than turnout in our own general elections.
In 2012 it was 57.5%, 2008 62.3% and similar in 2004.
Our view is perhaps skewed by the extensive coverage we get of the primaries and then the election itself. The primaries I am informed by my American friends are not representative of anyone except of the hardcore supporters of the parties.
In 2010 the turnout at the UK GE was 65.11% - not brilliant granted but better than the US.
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I sort of worked out where SP was coming from but really wanted to be wrong so was deliberately vague.
Here's something that might be of interest, about someone who broadcasts and has a site devoted to various theories:
https://thinkprogress.org/alex-jones-advising-donald-trump-1b3e0e27f48d#.90buj2aq3
This is his site: http://www.infowars.com/category/featured-stories/
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Alex Jones is a loon.
http://www.politifact.com/texas/statements/2016/sep/01/hillary-clinton/hillary-clinton-correct-austins-alex-jones-said-no/
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Appeals to those who are obsessive and don't get out much.
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This Presidential campaign is the worst I can remember. The loons are all crawling out of the woodwork!
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Having slept on this one, I think I was a bit harsh last night.
It's very difficult to be completely insulated from outside influences, particularly since the advent of the internet. You and I post links because we've read something that we consider to be pertinent, the difference is we take it all with a pinch of salt (most of the time), but there must be times when we are impressed with something that anyone else would consider off the wall.
There's nothing we can do about the outcome of the USA election, interesting as it is and it will all be over soon. We've enough to deal with here atm!
(Btw, I know it was me who posted Alex Jones links ;D, but I was not endorsing him, just posting as an example.)
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Brownie, for what it's worth, I'm not keen on Trump or Hillary.
For the life of me, I can't see how a nation, the size of the USA, can only come up with these two as presidential candidates.
Judging American political circumstances by European political standards will not get you very far. The determining factor in the presidential race is money - an who has access to it. Donald Trump has financed much of his own campaign from his own resources. The Clinton family may not be quite as well financially as it used to be.
But if you haven't any access to large sums of money, forget it.
The presidential contest is a popularity contest between two millionaires.
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especially if they are anti Semitic
Nearly, we've been through this before. I'm not anti-Jew but anti-Zionism. Most Zionists are either Christian Zionists or crypto-Jews and are not a true representation of the Jewish people. The term 'anti-Semetic' was originally coined by Zionists to be used against people they didn't like. I've shown this link before, from the (true) Torah Jews on anti-Semitism:
http://www.truetorahjews.org/antisemitism
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Brownie, I don't follow Alex Jones.... he's controlled opposition. I've studied the work of real historians.
~~~~~
Harrowby, I'm with you on that one. Yes, eg. Jimmy Carter and the Bush family, but where does Obama fit in. He didn't come to the presidency with wealth.
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Brownie, I don't follow Alex Jones.... he's controlled opposition. I've studied the work of real historians.
~~~~~
Harrowby, I'm with you on that one. Yes, eg. Jimmy Carter and the Bush family, but where does Obama fit in. He didn't come to the presidency with wealth.
I notice with some interest that you have amended the above post, and that. in the original post, you included the name of Eustace Mullins as one of the 'real historians' that you have studied.
Surely not the Eustace Mullins who supported Senator Joseph McCarthy in his aim to rid The US of communism, not the Eustace Mullins who was cited as a 'neo-Fascist' by the House Un-American Activities Committee, not the Eustace Mullins who expressed a belief that America owed a debt to Hitler, not the Eustace Mullins who 'in a tract called The Secret Holocaust, stated that the accepted account of the Holocaust is implausible, calling it a cover story for Jewish-led Soviet massacres of Christians and anti-communists'.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eustace_Mullins
Of course not. You must have meant someone else of the same name.
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Nearly, we've been through this before. I'm not anti-Jew but anti-Zionism. Most Zionists are either Christian Zionists or crypto-Jews and are not a true representation of the Jewish people. The term 'anti-Semetic' was originally coined by Zionists to be used against people they didn't like. I've shown this link before, from the (true) Torah Jews on anti-Semitism:
http://www.truetorahjews.org/antisemitism
It is interesting that you claim that the word 'antisemitic' was coined by 'Zionists to be used against people they didn't like'.
Both these sources disagree with you, one being the Encylopaedia Britannica. Both suggest that the term was first used by a certain Wilhelm Marr, a German radical, nationalist and race-agitator in 1879.
https://www.britannica.com/topic/anti-Semitism
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=anti-Semitism
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SP, you are digging a hole for yourself.
I, and I am sure many of us here, accept there are things that go on which are kept from us by people in powerful positions, and there are probably several groups of elite 'brotherhood', but conspiracy theorists like Eustace Mullins are merely the other side of the coin.
Studying the work of serious historians is great but they are human beings who promote their own opinions; you only have to look at our popular historians, such as David Starkey and Mary Beards, to see how they differ in their interpretations of events and historical figures. Never mind historians who specialise in church history, they are famous for rewriting history and elevating historical figures to sainthood - or the opposite, depending on their own agenda.
Sitting in front of a computer and reading the words of conspiracy theorists on the internet doesn't do anything except fill your head with material which is not good for mental health. Better to take it all with a pinch of salt, cautiously deal with what you actually know, limited as it may be, then think about something else.
Enki has commented on your other post, he's obviously researched the subject at least as well as you.
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What Jack is saying is that Farage's speech was about recognising that the bankers and global corporatism are behind everything, and that we need to wake-up to this, unite, and beat them at their own game.
Farage used to be a banker and Trump runs a global corporation.
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Harrowby, I'm with you on that one. Yes, eg. Jimmy Carter and the Bush family, but where does Obama fit in. He didn't come to the presidency with wealth.
Obama was attended Havard Law School, was a practising civil rights lawyer and a university law teacher, before becoming a US senator. I don't suppose he was short of a bob or two. He organised his finance in his presidential campaign by attracting small donations from a very large support network. His support for the presidency came from his popularity as a politician in Illinois.
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Obama is not in the same financial league as someone like Trump, he was a highly paid professional like many other people. I think that was part of his appeal actually, not a multimillionaire but a clever, hard working family man who was at the top of his profession. I will really be sorry to see him go but that is straying from the topic.
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I will really be sorry to see him go but that is straying from the topic.
So shall I.
Barack Obama is a decent man. And that sets him apart from many of his predessors.
However, the need for a potential president to have the means to fund his or her campaign is - at least - paradoxical in a nation that prides itself as an exemplar of democracy.
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Obama is not in the same financial league as someone like Trump, he was a highly paid professional like many other people. I think that was part of his appeal actually, not a multimillionaire but a clever, hard working family man who was at the top of his profession. I will really be sorry to see him go but that is straying from the topic.
It is a great pity Obama was restricted to two consecutive terms in office.
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Obama is not in the same financial league as someone like Trump, he was a highly paid professional like many other people. I think that was part of his appeal actually, not a multimillionaire but a clever, hard working family man who was at the top of his profession. I will really be sorry to see him go but that is straying from the topic.
I think Obama was one of the best Presidents they have ever had.
I don't remember a better one. He comes across as someone who cares about people.
Donald Trump is coming across as the exact opposite and all ego.
The best president, unfortunately could be followed by the worst!
:o
Part of what appeals about Obama as President, to me, is totally absent from Donald Trump which is the core of what bothers me about Donald Trump!
So it isn't straying really.
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Floo: It is a great pity Obama was restricted to two consecutive terms in office.
I agree with you in some respects floo because I admire him. However that's the American way and there is a point to it; if anyone is in power for too long, not only do they become somewhat 'stale' but they tend to think they can walk on water. At least Obama can bow out with his integrity intact.
Imagine Donald Trump doing two terms in office and us discussing his presidency in ten years time :D - aaargh!
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Floo: It is a great pity Obama was restricted to two consecutive terms in office.
I agree with you in some respects floo because I admire him. However that's the American way and there is a point to it; if anyone is in power for too long, not only do they become somewhat 'stale' but they tend to think they can walk on water. At least Obama can bow out with his integrity intact.
Imagine Donald Trump doing two terms in office and us discussing his presidency in ten years time :D - aaargh!
The idea of Trump doing even one day as President is horrifying!
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Well...Hillary is unwell again! She stumbled at the 9/11 function and seems to have pneumonia. Not good at all..!
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It is most concerning the news about Hillary Clinton's health. It wonder what would happen if she was unable to stand as the Democratic candidate?
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Well...Hillary is unwell again! She stumbled at the 9/11 function and seems to have pneumonia. Not good at all..!
So?
Who is to say that Donald Trump won't have pneumonia next week? Are you suggesting that presidential candidates should have some natural immunity to common diseases which can be readily controlled with antibiotics? Are you suggesting that being ill with such a complaint should eliminate her from the presidential election?
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It is most concerning the news about Hillary Clinton's health. It wonder what would happen if she was unable to stand as the Democratic candidate?
She seems to have chronic health problems. If she gets elected as President and is unable to function for some reason, the country will have Tim Kaine as President...! Is that what they want?
HH....the emphasis is on the word 'again'. Hillary seems to have chronic health issues and has often been seen stumbling, falling down, coughing etc.
Not a very healthy President! People could see this as a reason not to elect her.
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Not a very healthy President! People could see this as a reason not to elect her.
Didn't stop them electing FDR, 3 times!
Did it?
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Didn't stop them electing FDR, 3 times!
Did it?
That was hidden from the electorate for most of the time, as was JFK's Addison's disease.
The real question is whether there is anything significant here or whether there is a specific set of rumours stitched together. I would suggest stating this as a fact that there is a set of health problems is beyond the knowledge of anyone on here. The odds have certainly changed today.
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I wonder why Hilary has not had her pneumonia inoculation or if she has why no-one has mentioned it.
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I wonder why Hilary has not had her pneumonia inoculation or if she has why no-one has mentioned it.
Now there's a thought, you would think someone in her position wouldn't miss out on it.
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Now there's a thought, you would think someone in her position wouldn't miss out on it.
She may have had it - prevention rates from the vaccine range between 50 - 70%. She could just have been unlucky.
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She may have had it - prevention rates from the vaccine range between 50 - 70%. She could just have been unlucky.
True. I had mine a couple of years ago.
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Hilary may have viral pneumonia and the inoculation would not protect against that. It isn't usually serious and many of us may have had it and not known, a cold and cough, the cough disappears, we feel lousy and debilitated and then perk up. I've had it at least once, it was diagnosed on chest X-ray which I had to rule out something else. That was at least twenty five years ago but I was OK, didn't have any treatment. (Well I woz a bit more lively in those days so things were shaken off more easily :). )
If Mrs Clinton was not doing what she is doing at present, ie charging about all over the place and probably not sleeping particularly well, she may well not have noticed anything amiss so let's wait and see what the pneumonia actually is. She needs to boost her immune system.
As the above poster said, both President Roosevelt and Kennedy had chronic health problems and it didn't stop them. I know Hilary has been plagued with illness on and off for a while but I would hate something like a simple infection to ruin her chances, whatever I may think of her.
I saw Trump on the news last night and he was launching a personal attack on Hilary Clinton, saying she was of poor moral character or something like that. I thought that was very strong! They all get personal but surely there are limits.
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They all get personal but surely there are limits.
Not in the USA as is becoming blindingly obvious :(
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The b*tching in this particular Presidential campaign has really got out of hand.
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A source close to the Trump camp has said that Mike Pence and his team are.... “absolutely apoplectic,” "melting down” and "inconsolable".
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I do have a smidgen of sympathy for Mr Fart. It was supposed to be a private "guy to guy" conversation, and it was eleven years ago. No I don't condone what he said, it was the kind of thing that I never said even as a drunk teenager, but who amongst us can claimk never to have said anything untoward?
Now I expect all sorts of weird allegations about Hillums will now surface.
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I do have a smidgen of sympathy for Mr Fart. It was supposed to be a private "guy to guy" conversation, and it was eleven years ago. No I don't condone what he said, it was the kind of thing that I never said even as a drunk teenager, but who amongst us can claimk never to have said anything untoward?
He was wearing a microphone. He couldn't keep his stupid mouth shut even knowing he could be being recorded.
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I do have a smidgen of sympathy for Mr Fart. It was supposed to be a private "guy to guy" conversation, and it was eleven years ago. No I don't condone what he said, it was the kind of thing that I never said even as a drunk teenager, but who amongst us can claimk never to have said anything untoward?
Now I expect all sorts of weird allegations about Hillums will now surface.
If my husband had that sort of conversation with another guy, recorded or not, I would divorce him!
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The core of what bothers me about Donald Trump is the vacuousness of his speech. He will literally say the same thing 3 times in a row and it was meaningless the first time. It is significant that he never manages to utter a single, extemporaneous string of sentences that is deep, insightful or even interesting. This reveals something about him.
Do you remember anything Trump actually says?
Why not argue the points he makes. See what he says and how in the great scheme of things it would affect anyone.
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Do you remember anything Trump actually says?
Why not argue the points he makes. See what he says and how in the great scheme of things it would affect anyone.
Are you a supporter of that awful guy?