Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => Politics & Current Affairs => Topic started by: L.A. on July 31, 2016, 08:22:07 PM
-
Another element of 'Project Fear' that is becoming Project Reality.
The problem was dismissed by that phrase and ignored (so much for investigative journalism!) - but it's certainly not gone away. We are left with a very serious problem that (for a change) is not simply economics.
Right now we have an open border between Northern Ireland and the Republic. This was one of the great achievements of the Good Friday agreement, and virtually everyone on both sides of the border consider this to be a good thing. It not only makes commerce much easier and simple between the two countries but greatly improves relationships between the two halves of Ireland.
All this is in jeopardy because there now appears to be a fundamental problem:
Ireland will remain a member of the EU and as such will allow free movement of EU citizens, but if Britain does not allow free entry of EU citizens, there will be a stark choice:
1/ Close the border.
2/ Put passport control on all Irish ferry and flight routes.
Option 1 would infuriate virtually everyone on both sides of the border while option 2 would send the Unionists ballistic!
We have friends in the Republic and they report that this is a great concern to everyone South of the border at the moment, largely because they fear it might reignite the conflict.
-
Or just allow those with a EU passport from Ireland free movement both ways.
We would have done the same with Scotland, why not Ireland?
If Scotland had become independant and stayed in the EU, it would have been approved without issue.
Because it's NI it's considered a problem.
It doesn't have to be.
Or is this something Brussels would block? Just because it could?
It wouldn't hurt the EU.
Tbh I haven't noticed that much difference when travelling to another EU country and a non EU country.
Apart from the limits of stuff you can bring in, as in duty free.
But then I usually fly.
Even going to Scotland from England by flying you need your passport.
-
But then I usually fly.
Even going to Scotland from England by flying you need your passport.
No, you don't.
-
Or just allow those with a EU passport from Ireland free movement both ways.
We would have done the same with Scotland, why not Ireland?
If Scotland had become independant and stayed in the EU, it would have been approved without issue.
Because it's NI it's considered a problem.
It doesn't have to be.
Or is this something Brussels would block? Just because it could?
It wouldn't hurt the EU.
Tbh I haven't noticed that much difference when travelling to another EU country and a non EU country.
Apart from the limits of stuff you can bring in, as in duty free.
But then I usually fly.
Even going to Scotland from England by flying you need your passport.
The question is a hard or soft border and is caused by there being a land border. If the idea is that the UK controls who comes in, then you neepd passport control. Given the land border this is difficult andcistly. The issue is not about whether Republic citizens going to NI and NI citizens going to the Republic to work on a daily basis will be refused but that they will still have to go to passport control.
You don't need a passport to fly to Scotland that's a requirement from low cost carriers and a driving licence will cover it as well. Flying BA and neither is needed.
-
No, you don't.
Yes you do.
To fly from England to Glasgow you need your passport.
-
Yes you do.
To fly from England to Glasgow you need your passport.
No, you don't.
-
Or just allow those with a EU passport from Ireland free movement both ways.
That misses the point Rose. The border between Northern Ireland and the Republic is long and twisted with numerous minor roads, tracks and footpaths crossing it. Even during the conflict it was near impossible to control - even with the massive military presence. What is more, it would cause massive resentment as communities found themselves isolated.
We would have done the same with Scotland, why not Ireland?
If Scotland had become independant and stayed in the EU, it would have been approved without issue.
That would have been an equally difficult task.
Because it's NI it's considered a problem.
It doesn't have to be.
The politics of Northern Ireland means that the consequences of getting it wrong are so much greater.
Tbh I haven't noticed that much difference when travelling to another EU country and a non EU country.
Apart from the limits of stuff you can bring in, as in duty free.
But then I usually fly.
Even going to Scotland from England by flying you need your passport.
The fundamental problem Rose, is that in both cases, we have a long land border that is not easily controlled .
-
No, you don't.
Most people probably do use their passport as a means of proving identity but there are other options.
-
Most people probably do use their passport as a means of proving identity but there are other options.
I agree.
-
No, you don't.
You can't catch a plane in the same way you do a bus.
I can see some airlines might accept another form of photo ID.
But people have been turned away because they don't have the right photo ID.
Not everyone has a Driving licence with a photo and not all photo ids are acceptable.
You don't need any of that to get on a bus
-
Most people probably do use their passport as a means of proving identity but there are other options.
Indeed. When I fly to Jersey with BA I use my bus pass. I normally stand in a queue in which everyone else uses their passport,
-
I could get an Irish passport if I needed one as I have dual British/Irish nationality since 2008. As I am not likely to go abroad again, or even on holiday to my home island, I doubt I will bother, but my siblings will probably get their Irish passports, especially the one who has a second home in Belgium.
-
You can't catch a plane in the same way you do a bus.
I can see some airlines might accept another form of photo ID.
But people have been turned away because they don't have the right photo ID.
Not everyone has a Driving licence with a photo and not all photo ids are acceptable.
You don't need any of that to get on a bus
Not everyone has a passport either!
I take it that you now agree that you don't need a passport to fly from England to Scotland?
-
But as I have pointed out - flights aren't the main problem - it's the massive land border where people expect to pass to and fro unimpeded - and it would be very difficult to stop them!
-
Not everyone has a passport either!
I take it that you now agree that you don't need a passport to fly from England to Scotland?
Yes, but a passport is more reliable than a bus pass.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/travel_news/article-2891027/Grandmother-85-stranded-Stansted-Airport-Ryanair-refuses-bus-pass-ID-despite-accepting-outbound-flight.html
It's much easier to just pack your passport, which is probably why companies tell their staff they just have to have a passport.
Some driving licences are unacceptable if they are not the photo kind,
I'm not sure I'd be happy with just a bus pass.
Hassle is still hassle.
-
Yes, but a passport is more reliable than a bus pass.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/travel_news/article-2891027/Grandmother-85-stranded-Stansted-Airport-Ryanair-refuses-bus-pass-ID-despite-accepting-outbound-flight.html
It's much easier to just pack your passport, which is probably why companies tell their staff they just need a passport.
Some driving licences are unacceptable if they are not the photo kind,
I'm not sure I'd be happy with just a bus pass.
Hassle is still hassle.
I don't need either to fly BA England Scotland
The point is you made a statement that a passport was needed. It isn't.
In addition you continue to ignore that the point is about a land border.
-
But as I have pointed out - flights aren't the main problem - it's the massive land border where people expect to pass to and fro unimpeded - and it would be very difficult to stop them!
They move freely now, why bother to change it?
Presumably people from outside the EU have to go through border controls anyway if they come to southern or Northern Ireland.
All you need to do is grant EU members the freedom to travel within the borders of NI and SI but not the UK mainland.
Anyone leaving Ireland without a NI passport has to go through customs anyway.
I don't see it as an issue and don't see why we can't amend the rules to suit NI, SI and their own interests.
It maybe NI might want to issue visas if people want to stay more than a certain time to stop total free movement and immigration.
But as I see it, since Brexit we can, ( within reason) make up our own rules as we go along.
We have to think " outside the box" for what works for us.
-
I don't need either to fly BA England Scotland
The point is you made a statement that a passport was needed. It isn't.
In addition you continue to ignore that the point is about a land border.
That's because I was told you needed a passport.
Looking into it, I can see it's not correct but saves employers having to fuss about things like what sort of driving licence have you got, and will you get turned away because your photo ID is the wrong sort, or even get turned away like the old lady in my link.
So they tell staff, you need a passport.
My mistake.
Land borders.
I'm not ignoring it, I just think you have to look at Ireland as a island and find answers that work within that island rather than annexed bits of the U.K.
Yes NI is part of the U.K. But it is also uniquely part of an island, which means you can look for a different answer one that suits both NI and SI.
-
My UK passport expired last year, and I haven't bothered to renew it.
-
They move freely now, why bother to change it?
Presumably people from outside the EU have to go through border controls anyway if they come to southern or Northern Ireland.
All you need to do is grant EU members the freedom to travel within the borders of NI and SI but not the UK mainland.
Anyone leaving Ireland without a NI passport has to go through customs anyway.
I don't see it as an issue and don't see why we can't amend the rules to suit NI, SI and their own interests.
It maybe NI might want to issue visas if people want to stay more than a certain time to stop total free movement and immigration.
But as I see it, since Brexit we can, ( within reason) make up our own rules as we go along.
We have to think " outside the box" for what works for us.
I think I would agree that something along those lines would be the only practical solution, but if NI isn't going to become a 'back door' into the UK, full passport and immigration checks would have to be implemented on all flights and ferries - which I strongly suspect would not please the Unionists.
-
Land borders.
I'm not ignoring it, I just think you have to look at Ireland as a island and find answers that work within that island rather than annexed bits of the U.K.
Yes NI is part of the U.K. But it is also uniquely part of an island, which means you can look for a different answer one that suits both NI and SI.
So, we shall be left with two options:
1 Border posts along the land border within the island of Ireland. Everyone passing through the border will be required to establish their identity and their citizenship every time they cross the border. Even if they are only going to the nearest shop for some tea bags!
2 Everyone leaving the island of Ireland to travel to Great Britain will be required to establish their identity and their citizenship. And this will apply to UK citizens who are simply moving from one location in the UK to another location in the UK?
-
For the last few years I have had to show my passport when travelling back to my home island, which I never had to do in the past.
-
So, we shall be left with two options:
1 Border posts along the land border within the island of Ireland. Everyone passing through the border will be required to establish their identity and their citizenship every time they cross the border. Even if they are only going to the nearest shop for some tea bags!
2 Everyone leaving the island of Ireland to travel to Great Britain will be required to establish their identity and their citizenship. And this will apply to UK citizens who are simply moving from one location in the UK to another location in the UK?
Im sure we can work something out with those passports with the chips to make it less laborious for the people in NI to visit mainland uk.
So they can come easily into mainland uk, just as they do now.
I'm sure there is an answer, we have the technology now :)
All they need is a special chip, then just carry on as normal.
The chip might not even have to be on a passport.
-
A special chip?
I wonder how much it will cost to implement the special chip.
Chipping away at the £350 million.
-
A special chip?
I wonder how much it will cost to implement the special chip.
Chipping away at the £350 million.
Passports aren't free though, the cost would have to go against all passports.
-
Im sure we can work something out with those passports with the chips to make it less laborious for the people in NI to visit mainland uk.
So they can come easily into mainland uk, just as they do now.
I'm sure there is an answer, we have the technology now :)
All they need is a special chip, then just carry on as normal.
The chip might not even have to be on a passport.
Mark of the beast
-
Passports aren't free though, the cost would have to go against all passports.
Oh so as well as the extra admin that it will cost the government, we are all lumbered with extra costs as well. It's looking better and better this BREXIT lark. ::)
-
Oh so as well as the extra admin that it will cost the government, we are all lumbered with extra costs as well. It's looking better and better this BREXIT lark. ::)
So, do you have any ideas on how a workable system could be put in place?
Or have you just washed your hands of any responsibility, now people have voted Brexit?
Just because I voted remain doesn't mean I can't come up with some ideas.
What's yours?
-
So, do you have any ideas on how a workable system could be put in place?
Or have you just washed your hands of any responsibility, now people have voted Brexit?
Just because I voted remain doesn't mean I can't come up with some ideas.
What's yours?
Nope - I'm not paid for that. My responsibility was to vote for the best option in the referendum. I can't be bothered to think of ways out of this whole sorry mess. So yes I have washed my hands of any responsibility because I am not responsible, the Brextieers are. So every time there is a job cut I hope it is someone who voted to Leave. Every time there are cuts in services I hope it's the areas that voted to leave that are affected proportionally most (which it probably will be anyway - because the very areas that voted heavily to leave were generally the areas that received most in EU funds).
I'm now going to do what the anti EU brigade of have done from decades and carp from the sidelines about what a waste of money it has all been, and how we aren't taking control back of anything and the fact that they have screwed the country gooad and proper, without dong anything to improve the situation.
After all there was no plan from the Exit side - and now we are making it up on the hoof. Never advisable at the best of times - which this isn't anyway.
-
Nope - I'm not paid for that. My responsibility was to vote for the best option in the referendum. I can't be bothered to think of ways out of this whole sorry mess. So yes I have washed my hands of any responsibility because I am not responsible, the Brextieers are. So every time there is a job cut I hope it is someone who voted to Leave. Every time there are cuts in services I hope it's the areas that voted to leave that are affected proportionally most (which it probably will be anyway - because the very areas that voted heavily to leave were generally the areas that received most in EU funds).
I'm now going to do what the anti EU brigade of have done from decades and carp from the sidelines about what a waste of money it has all been, and how we aren't taking control back of anything and the fact that they have screwed the country gooad and proper, without dong anything to improve the situation.
After all there was no plan from the Exit side - and now we are making it up on the hoof. Never advisable at the best of times - which this isn't anyway.
Lots of people don't get paid for things they do, for responsibilities they take on.
Thank goodness some people are prepared to do so. Lots of our services are supported by volunteers who don't get paid.
Theresa May, who also voted remain, isn't going to sit back and refuse to take responsibility because the vote didn't go her way.
What this country needs now is some good ideas, from everyone.
Anyone can sit back and criticise and scoff from the background.
That's the easy route.
It takes something more to be the sort of person who can get up and find workable ideas and positive outcomes, regardless of how the vote went.
It's those people we need in this country now, people who can look past all the problems and their own pride and look for answers that work.
It doesn't matter if they voted leave or remain.
I think I owe that to this country to try and support people like that, no matter how I or they voted.
I don't care what someone voted, no one should be discriminated against over it and your ill will towards them is staggering.
All I can say is, that's not who I want to be Trent.
Is that really who you want to be?
-
At the moment yes it is Rose.
Now you can be all holier than thou if you wish. I've worked all my life in this country (barring a year in Poland) so I'm not about to be made to feel guilty by you or anyone else about how I feel re the EU referendum. It's nothing to do with my pride - rather my utter disgust at a system that allowed this to happen in the first place.
As I say - Nigel Farage, the Daily Express et al have had decades of scoffing and lying from the sidelines - so I have my work cut out to catch up. But I will.
Here's some lies to be going on with: Nigel Farage smells of cheese. Boris Johnson is a brillaint politician and will make a great foreign secretary. Theresa May has the sun shining out of her behind.
My ill will as you put it - is only being returned in kind. I know turn the other cheek is popular in some circles, but I am feeling in a distinctly more eye for an eye mood.
-
At the end of the day the people that will be most adversely affected by leaving the EU are the families of those that voted to leave. The so called "elites" are expert at making the best of difficult circumstances and will, in broad terms, retain their position; coming out better off whatever happens.
Why interfere in the Brexit process and then be accused of undermining it when it goes belly-up?
-
At the moment yes it is Rose.
Now you can be all holier than thou if you wish. I've worked all my life in this country (barring a year in Poland) so I'm not about to be made to feel guilty by you or anyone else about how I feel re the EU referendum. It's nothing to do with my pride - rather my utter disgust at a system that allowed this to happen in the first place.
As I say - Nigel Farage, the Daily Express et al have had decades of scoffing and lying from the sidelines - so I have my work cut out to catch up. But I will.
Here's some lies to be going on with: Nigel Farage smells of cheese. Boris Johnson is a brillaint politician and will make a great foreign secretary. Theresa May has the sun shining out of her behind.
My ill will as you put it - is only being returned in kind. I know turn the other cheek is popular in some circles, but I am feeling in a distinctly more eye for an eye mood.
Why on earth would you want to catch them up?
What would you prove anyway? That you are as bad or worse than them?
The system that's in place allowed us the freedom to vote in the first place.
I don't think it was wise in this case, but we were offered the freedom to do so.
The system has given us the freedom of the vote, with this comes dangers.
Would you rather have a system that oppressed more?
The trouble with David Cameron was he was inclined to be too democratic in some ways hence the Scottish referendum and the Brexit vote.
Both have the potential to harm the uk.
However by preventing public opinion and referendums, there are elements of dictatorship.
If you give the government powers to run the country to the countries advantage but not necessarily to what the majority thinks is the advantage, isn't that dictatorship?
In some ways it shows how free we are in this country and how our system does take into account public opinion.
The downside is that public opinion can be ill informed and wrong.
We had the vote and the people voted.
This is what freedom means.
It means you have the opportunity to get it wrong and suffer as a consequence.
If you lived under a less free society like communism what you could choose would already be dictated to you.
In our country, you have the freedom to vote against government advice.
If you think about it, and dictators elsewhere........ That's quite something really.
-
At the end of the day the people that will be most adversely affected by leaving the EU are the families of those that voted to leave. The so called "elites" are expert at making the best of difficult circumstances and will, in broad terms, retain their position; coming out better off whatever happens.
Why interfere in the Brexit process and then be accused of undermining it when it goes belly-up?
Because you wouldn't be undermining it or interfering with it.
You would be giving it a fair try and trying for a positive outcome even though it wasn't what you personally voted for.
If it then failed, no one could accuse you of undermining it by a negative attitude or stance.
You could then honestly say, " I gave it my best shot but it was a bad idea to start with".
Also you seem to assume it was only the poor that voted leave, that isn't so.
-
Why on earth would you want to catch them up?
What would you prove anyway? That you are as bad or worse than them?
The system that's in place allowed us the freedom to vote in the first place.
I don't think it was wise in this case, but we were offered the freedom to do so.
The system has given us the freedom of the vote, with this comes dangers.
Would you rather have a system that oppressed more?
The trouble with David Cameron was he was inclined to be too democratic in some ways hence the Scottish referendum and the Brexit vote.
Both have the potential to harm the uk.
However by preventing public opinion and referendums, there are elements of dictatorship.
If you give the government powers to run the country to the countries advantage but not necessarily to what the majority thinks is the advantage, isn't that dictatorship?
In some ways it shows how free we are in this country and how our system does take into account public opinion.
The downside is that public opinion can be ill informed and wrong.
We had the vote and the people voted.
This is what freedom means.
It means you have the opportunity to get it wrong and suffer as a consequence.
If you lived under a less free society like communism what you could choose would already be dictated to you.
In our country, you have the freedom to vote against government advice.
If you think about it, and dictators elsewhere........ That's quite something really.
We elect a government to make decisions on our behalf. It's called a representative democracy - as in they are supposed to represent us. The reason we have this system, in part, is that our elected representatives have the time to read and have access to, documents, statistics and analysis etc that we do not have the time nor inclination to look at. They then act on what they consider best for the country. We don't elect them to hold referenda every 5 minutes as a way to try to save their own party interests, whicch is what the EU referendum was always about. It wasn't anything to do with the freedom to vote.
So no lectures about democracy please.
-
Yes you do.
To fly from England to Glasgow you need your passport.
No, you need photo identification and that's not because you are crossing a boarder but because you are on a plane.
The same applies to flying to the RoI by the way.
-
Because you wouldn't be undermining it or interfering with it.
You would be giving it a fair try and trying for a positive outcome even though it wasn't what you personally voted for.
If it then failed, no one could accuse you of undermining it by a negative attitude or stance.
You could then honestly say, " I gave it my best shot but it was a bad idea to start with".
Also you seem to assume it was only the poor that voted leave, that isn't so.
Not necessarily the poor, but whingers unable to appreciate how well off they actually are.
No negative attitude or stance, just hanging on and trying to enjoy the roller coaster ride now that we are on it.
On the Irish question itself, I'm sure that it is well within the capabilities of the people of Eire and NI to solve these problem themselves - certainly sure they don't need or want any suggestions from me :)
-
The obvious solution is to tax Brexit-voting areas more heavily, so that if the £350 million is not enough to pay the shortfall, the Brexit tax will cover it. It's unfair on Remain voters though in Brexit areas. Surely, human ingenuity can work out a way for them to be given a rebate?
[this is a joke]
-
No, you need photo identification and that's not because you are crossing a boarder but because you are on a plane.
The same applies to flying to the RoI by the way.
This is true, and it usually takes the form of the modern driving licence. An N. Irish friend of mine is particularly perplexed by this stipulation, since his British passport is outdated and he wishes to apply for an Irish passport, to which he is entitled. His driving licence is of the old type, without photo, but which is valid in perpetuity. He therefore needs to get a more modern driving licence with photo identity on it - which is not perpetually valid, and to get it, he would have to give up the old licence which is.
-
This is true, and it usually takes the form of the modern driving licence. An N. Irish friend of mine is particularly perplexed by this stipulation, since his British passport is outdated and he wishes to apply for an Irish passport, to which he is entitled. His driving licence is of the old type, without photo, but which is valid in perpetuity. He therefore needs to get a more modern driving licence with photo identity on it - which is not perpetually valid, and to get it, he would have to give up the old licence which is.
If I were him, I'd bite the bullet and get a photo card licence. They're much more convenient to carry and durable and they work as photo id.
-
Another element of 'Project Fear' that is becoming Project Reality.
The problem was dismissed by that phrase and ignored (so much for investigative journalism!) - but it's certainly not gone away. We are left with a very serious problem that (for a change) is not simply economics.
Are we not grown up enough and mature in our relations to maintain a peaceful liaison?
Goodness, I hope we have more than an EU membership to keep us together.