Religion and Ethics Forum

General Category => Politics & Current Affairs => Topic started by: Nearly Sane on September 03, 2016, 02:09:17 PM

Title: Kaepernick and the anthem
Post by: Nearly Sane on September 03, 2016, 02:09:17 PM

I can see this becoming an issue in the Presidential election as well

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-37265886
Title: Re: Kaepernick and the anthem
Post by: Gordon on September 03, 2016, 05:26:34 PM
The Americans seem to take this 'in-yer-face' patriotism seriously. I recall going to a baseball game once (utterly boring, by the way) and being amazed at all the hand on heart stuff: truly cringeworthy!
Title: Re: Kaepernick and the anthem
Post by: Jack Knave on September 03, 2016, 08:43:53 PM
There's a neurosis in there somewhere, and that dangerous.
Title: Re: Kaepernick and the anthem
Post by: Nearly Sane on September 03, 2016, 09:03:39 PM
There's a neurosis in there somewhere, and that dangerous.
In where?
Title: Re: Kaepernick and the anthem
Post by: Hope on September 04, 2016, 08:36:01 PM
Is there any legal requirement for anyone to stand for a national anthem, either here in the UK or the USA or Europe?  I appreciate that there may be a form of requirement for members of the military, but for the general public ... ?
Title: Re: Kaepernick and the anthem
Post by: Harrowby Hall on September 05, 2016, 09:10:04 AM
The Americans seem to take this 'in-yer-face' patriotism seriously. I recall going to a baseball game once (utterly boring, by the way) and being amazed at all the hand on heart stuff: truly cringeworthy!

Do American schoolchildren still pledge loyalty to the national flag every morning? If so, how North Korean!
Title: Re: Kaepernick and the anthem
Post by: Jack Knave on September 05, 2016, 04:33:27 PM
In where?
Ochlocracy.
Title: Re: Kaepernick and the anthem
Post by: Nearly Sane on September 05, 2016, 04:38:44 PM
Ochlocracy.
So if a majority might hold an opinion that might be stoked up by n appeal to uniformity that would be ochocracy and in addition a sign of neuroses in your view?
Title: Re: Kaepernick and the anthem
Post by: Jack Knave on September 05, 2016, 06:09:56 PM
So if a majority might hold an opinion that might be stoked up by n appeal to uniformity that would be ochocracy and in addition a sign of neuroses in your view?
It depends on the emotional motivations it has. What the Americans have with their flag and all that is similar to the Muslims going AWOL when Mohammed is depicted in cartoons and the like. The fact that they are not tested on this, because they are a powerful nation, doesn't negate the fact that this is hovering below the surface. 
Title: Re: Kaepernick and the anthem
Post by: jeremyp on September 05, 2016, 06:12:37 PM
Ochlocracy.

Why don't we just say "mob rule" instead of using high falutin' words that most of us have to look up?
Title: Re: Kaepernick and the anthem
Post by: jeremyp on September 05, 2016, 06:14:48 PM
Muslims going AWOL when Mohammed is depicted in cartoons and the like.

"AWOL" is clearly wrong in this context. The closest I could come up with was "apeshit".
Title: Re: Kaepernick and the anthem
Post by: Nearly Sane on September 05, 2016, 06:15:40 PM
It depends on the emotional motivations it has. What the Americans have with their flag and all that is similar to the Muslims going AWOL when Mohammed is depicted in cartoons and the like. The fact that they are not tested on this, because they are a powerful nation, doesn't negate the fact that this is hovering below the surface.
and surely is similar to any unique cultural claims. Any statement about 'emotional motivations' and their worth or not is surely simple assertion?
Title: Re: Kaepernick and the anthem
Post by: BashfulAnthony on September 05, 2016, 06:20:34 PM
NS, Trent, thanks for your welcome.  Glad to see you both still posting.  Hope all is well.
Title: Re: Kaepernick and the anthem
Post by: Jack Knave on September 05, 2016, 06:52:50 PM
Why don't we just say "mob rule" instead of using high falutin' words that most of us have to look up?
Education hurt no one!!!
Title: Re: Kaepernick and the anthem
Post by: Jack Knave on September 05, 2016, 06:55:12 PM
"AWOL" is clearly wrong in this context. The closest I could come up with was "apeshit".
You mean you had to look up AWOL as well...?
Title: Re: Kaepernick and the anthem
Post by: Jack Knave on September 05, 2016, 06:59:51 PM
and surely is similar to any unique cultural claims. Any statement about 'emotional motivations' and their worth or not is surely simple assertion?
My last post was a reference to unconscious forces i.e. they run the people not the other way round. We saw this kind of thing with the Nazis and the complicity of the German people. That is what ochlocracy essentially refers to.
Title: Re: Kaepernick and the anthem
Post by: Nearly Sane on September 05, 2016, 07:06:42 PM
My last post was a reference to unconscious forces i.e. they run the people not the other way round. We saw this kind of thing with the Nazis and the complicity of the German people. That is what ochlocracy essentially refers to.
and that is the point I was challenging. Surely on that basis it becomes a description nothing more? All cultures are a subject of unconscious forces, rather Luke the emergent properties being discussed elsewhere?
Title: Re: Kaepernick and the anthem
Post by: Jack Knave on September 05, 2016, 07:44:37 PM
and that is the point I was challenging. Surely on that basis it becomes a description nothing more? All cultures are a subject of unconscious forces, rather Luke the emergent properties being discussed elsewhere?
But some reach a tipping point where a kind of madness follows, a rage or outburst of violence.
Title: Re: Kaepernick and the anthem
Post by: Nearly Sane on September 05, 2016, 07:49:56 PM
But some reach a tipping point where a kind of madness follows, a rage or outburst of violence.
which if you are using description is then an argumentum ad consequentiam
Title: Re: Kaepernick and the anthem
Post by: floo on September 06, 2016, 08:58:46 AM
The Americans seem to take this 'in-yer-face' patriotism seriously. I recall going to a baseball game once (utterly boring, by the way) and being amazed at all the hand on heart stuff: truly cringeworthy!

I agree. OTT patriotism is creepy, imo.
Title: Re: Kaepernick and the anthem
Post by: Jack Knave on September 06, 2016, 07:23:57 PM
which if you are using description is then an argumentum ad consequentiam
No it is not. I said some cases reach the violent point, and I made no judgement about the initial state being good or bad or desirable or not based on the outcome, which could be quite respectable or noble.