Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Keith Maitland on September 15, 2016, 12:06:59 PM
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This is a concept that I have struggled with a lot over the last few years, and I still haven't found a good answer. To me, the absurdity (or futility, which is the term I prefer, as did Tolstoy) of life is not in the short length of a human lifespan (although that is an additional reason), but in the finite nature of our universe. We now know with a high degree of certainty that our inhabitable universe is finite, and one day all of the energy of the universe will be spent, exhausted, and cease to function. This is an outcome we cannot currently reconcile or outrun. Ergo, there WILL come a day that no matter what humans have endeavored to achieve, it will be washed away by the entropic heat death of the universe, and any outcome will be eternally useless. And if we have prior knowledge that there will come a day when all prior action is rendered meaningless, and no further action can take place, then can action really have meaning in the present?
I don't think that it can.
I just cannot absolve myself of the knowledge that the importance of 'now' will most certainly be rendered irrelevant one day, retroactively robbing the present of whatever worth it has.
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Keith,
This is a concept that I have struggled with a lot over the last few years, and I still haven't found a good answer. To me, the absurdity (or futility, which is the term I prefer, as did Tolstoy) of life is not in the short length of a human lifespan (although that is an additional reason), but in the finite nature of our universe. We now know with a high degree of certainty that our inhabitable universe is finite, and one day all of the energy of the universe will be spent, exhausted, and cease to function. This is an outcome we cannot currently reconcile or outrun. Ergo, there WILL come a day that no matter what humans have endeavored to achieve, it will be washed away by the entropic heat death of the universe, and any outcome will be eternally useless. And if we have prior knowledge that there will come a day when all prior action is rendered meaningless, and no further action can take place, then can action really have meaning in the present?
I don't think that it can.
I just cannot absolve myself of the knowledge that the importance of 'now' will most certainly be rendered irrelevant one day, retroactively robbing the present of whatever worth it has.
There's no reason for the life we experience not to have deep and profound meaning for us. As Shakespeare put it:
To-morrow, and to-morrow, and to-morrow,
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day
To the last syllable of recorded time,
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage
And then is heard no more: it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.
(Macbeth)
That our doings have no universal meaning doesn't mean that they can't have lots of it within the temporal bubbles we happen to occupy.
Enjoy it while you can!
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I can't see any difference from my own death. This will bring to an end all my interests and pursuits, and my own physical existence. So what? Am I supposed to extract from this some kind of nihilism, that life isn't worth living? That just seems quite a depressed position to me, but of course, it gets dressed up in intellectual fancy clothes. But meaning isn't extracted via an intellectual process. I am just going off the shops now, and that isn't tarnished by the prospect of my own death. I call that mind-fucking, or mental masturbation.
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This is a concept that I have struggled with a lot over the last few years, and I still haven't found a good answer. To me, the absurdity (or futility, which is the term I prefer, as did Tolstoy) of life is not in the short length of a human lifespan (although that is an additional reason), but in the finite nature of our universe. We now know with a high degree of certainty that our inhabitable universe is finite, and one day all of the energy of the universe will be spent, exhausted, and cease to function. This is an outcome we cannot currently reconcile or outrun. Ergo, there WILL come a day that no matter what humans have endeavored to achieve, it will be washed away by the entropic heat death of the universe, and any outcome will be eternally useless. And if we have prior knowledge that there will come a day when all prior action is rendered meaningless, and no further action can take place, then can action really have meaning in the present?
I don't think that it can.
I just cannot absolve myself of the knowledge that the importance of 'now' will most certainly be rendered irrelevant one day, retroactively robbing the present of whatever worth it has.
If this is really bothering you then perhaps you haven't grasped the importance of now.
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Surely to each of us it is the here and now which is important?
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wiggin,
I can't see any difference from my own death. This will bring to an end all my interests and pursuits, and my own physical existence. So what? Am I supposed to extract from this some kind of nihilism, that life isn't worth living? That just seems quite a depressed position to me, but of course, it gets dressed up in intellectual fancy clothes. But meaning isn't extracted via an intellectual process. I am just going off the shops now, and that isn't tarnished by the prospect of my own death. I call that mind-fucking, or mental masturbation.
No, for me it's also because systems of value are arbitrary. We judge values using our values and there is no objective meta-value system that we can use to place ourselves in value space.
For instance imagine a conscious AI that wants nothing more than to maximize the number of paper clips in the universe. Clearly absurd and pointless right? No more absurd than whatever feature in our skulls our brains are maximizing for.
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Keith,
No, for me it's also because systems of value are arbitrary. We judge values using our values and there is no objective meta-value system that we can use to place ourselves in value space.
For instance imagine a conscious AI that wants nothing more than to maximize the number of paper clips in the universe. Clearly absurd and pointless right? No more absurd than whatever feature in our skulls our brains are maximizing for.
Your need for the absolute, for universality for experiences to be meaningful is misplaced. They're as meaningful as they seem to be to us in our obscure backwater of the universe for the brief flicker of time that we're here to experience them. Why want more?
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And just to back up what Blue and wiggs have said, I find it perfectly satisfactory that I find enough meaning in my own life, not to bother about what comes afterwards. As I see it, oblivion following my death will be no different to the oblivion before I was conceived. I simply function according to the way my mind works, and get enjoyment and meaning from a whole range of my experiences. They don't have to be absolute in any way for me not to find meaning in them. This seems to be the way nature or evolution has made me.
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wiggin,
No, for me it's also because systems of value are arbitrary. We judge values using our values and there is no objective meta-value system that we can use to place ourselves in value space.
For instance imagine a conscious AI that wants nothing more than to maximize the number of paper clips in the universe. Clearly absurd and pointless right? No more absurd than whatever feature in our skulls our brains are maximizing for.
You are over-analyzing life. Well, I have a certain sympathy for that, as I used to. But I did learn to get immersed in life, and actually enjoy it. I'm not sure how you get there, from here, but it can be done, if you want to, and if you can let go a bit. I found that kids are a brilliant cure, as they're not interested in mind-fucking. Try telling a four-year old that going on the slide in the park is an arbitrary system of value!
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Just to say that I agree with what blue said. I also understand where you are coming from Keith, have felt that way too; it is quite a 'lonely' feeling, I can't think of a better word to describe it. Everything, including me, seemed so pointless. However it passed eventually and so it will for you.
Also agree with what Wiggi says about kids. Many people talk about what they do for their children but I honestly believe they give us so much more, it's incalculable. Still, not everyone has kids in which case there is something else, just a question of finding it but it is there.
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How dull and uninteresting would be a non absurd life? Indeed in our view of what life is would it even make sense to call it living? I can only speak for me but I don't struggle with the concept of absurdity. I live it, eat it, fuck it every day in the recognition that otherwise we would have no reality.
To once again quote the great philosopher Angel 'when nothing you do matters all that matters is what you do'
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Dear Keith,
The trick is, as Wigs and Brownie have hinted at, and as ekim has pointed out over on the searching for God thread, be like a child, find wonder in everything ;) Well that and knowing where to buy the best square sausage, Morrisons, it's the fat content which makes them so tasty :P
Gonnagle.
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Well, what about Gregg's Belgian buns? I'm sure that the icing has got thinner. It's probably Brexit.
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Dear Wigs,
Well, what about Gregg's Belgian buns? I'm sure that the icing has got thinner. It's probably Brexit.
See!! See! this is what happens when great men do nothing, the icing becomes thinner, well Keith can call it absurd but this is what we must fight for, I had two chocolate eclairs from Marks and Sparks yesterday, the chocolate was thick, the cream was in abundance, real chocolate eclairs, this is what we struggle for, Life, Love and the pursuit of Happiness, do not be happy with any old chocolate eclair, demand the best.
Gonnagle.
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Thinking about my interaction with life, the universe and everything therein over these last 64 years, I'd say that many of the best bits involved the absurd bits: and long may it remain that way!
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Thinking about my interaction with life, the universe and everything therein over these last 64 years, I'd say that many of the best bits involved the absurd bits: and long may it remain that way!
This reminds me of an instance at Flamborough several years ago when a brown shrike(a very rare bird) appeared. It could only be seen from the road to the lighthouse, and consequentially we joined a couple of hundred other birders. The police were called, and had the magnaminity to cordon off part of the road for us, so the traffic could flow easily. Unfortunately, as soon as they set up the cordon, the bird moved about 300yds further down the road, and all the birders promptly followed, leaving the police finishing putting their cordon tape in place, and looking totally non-plussed as to why there was now no one in it. This whole scenario struck me as rather absurd, something to do with the idea of the birders all intent on seeing one small bird, and the police, being as helpful as possible, but looking considerably confused.
Here is a picture of the incident. I'm in there...somewhere. :D
http://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-birdwatchers-at-flamborough-uk-watching-brown-shrike-26761819.html
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NS re: 'absurd life': "I live it, eat it, fuck it every day..."
All I can say to that is, lucky old absurd life! :o :)
Gonnagle: "The trick is, as Wigs and Brownie have hinted at, and as ekim has pointed out over on the searching for God thread, be like a child, find wonder in everything ;)."
Strangely coincidental but earlier this week someone was talking to me about the beauty of taking pleasure in 'ordinary things', and how joyful life can be when someone is able to do that. Now you have said the same in different words.
It's true!
Lovely posts from you and others. I hope Keith is a little encouraged but nothing happens overnight.
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I recall, sometime in the late 70's, working with a bit of a practical joker called Susan.
Being slimmer than now I had no aversion to unattended chocolates. One day there was a solitary chocolate on my desk that I assumed (correctly) had been left for me - it looked like the purple sweet wrapped in cellophane from Quality Street. So I got stuck in: but it was a hard sweet and not chocolate, and was tasteless - so after a few minutes it went in the bin.
Off I then went to a meeting with several senior NHS managers, where the more I smiled in a reassuring manner the more they looked ill at ease. On returned Susan gave me a mirror and told me to smile: my teeth were a vivid purple since it had been a joke/dyed sweet.
Sadly she moved on, so I never got my revenge.
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Brownie,
NS re: 'absurd life': "I live it, eat it, fuck it every day..."
All I can say to that is, lucky old absurd life! :o :)
Gonnagle: "The trick is, as Wigs and Brownie have hinted at, and as ekim has pointed out over on the searching for God thread, be like a child, find wonder in everything ;)."
Strangely coincidental but earlier this week someone was talking to me about the beauty of taking pleasure in 'ordinary things', and how joyful life can be when someone is able to do that. Now you have said the same in different words.
It's true!
Lovely posts from you and others. I hope Keith is a little encouraged but nothing happens overnight.
Indeed. To put it another way, even if putting your left leg in and your left leg out, then shaking it all about really is what it's all about...
...so what?
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This is a concept that I have struggled with a lot over the last few years, and I still haven't found a good answer. To me, the absurdity (or futility, which is the term I prefer, as did Tolstoy) of life is not in the short length of a human lifespan (although that is an additional reason), but in the finite nature of our universe. We now know with a high degree of certainty that our inhabitable universe is finite, and one day all of the energy of the universe will be spent, exhausted, and cease to function. This is an outcome we cannot currently reconcile or outrun. Ergo, there WILL come a day that no matter what humans have endeavored to achieve, it will be washed away by the entropic heat death of the universe, and any outcome will be eternally useless. And if we have prior knowledge that there will come a day when all prior action is rendered meaningless, and no further action can take place, then can action really have meaning in the present?
I don't think that it can.
I just cannot absolve myself of the knowledge that the importance of 'now' will most certainly be rendered irrelevant one day, retroactively robbing the present of whatever worth it has.
The point of it all is 42
It can be considered as a Zen Koan - just reflect on that until it all makes sense ;)
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L.A,
The point of it all is 42
It can be considered as a Zen Koan - just reflect on that until it all makes sense ;)
Just for funsies, there is a story that Douglas Adams chose that number because a cup of tea fixes everything, and it's a homonymic rearrangement of "tea for two".
We'll never know for sure I guess, but I like the story anyway.
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Brownie,
Indeed. To put it another way, even if putting your left leg in and your left leg out, then shaking it all about really is what it's all about...
...so what?
Yeah, might as well go back to bed for a week :). Less effort.
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L.A,
Just for funsies, there is a story that Douglas Adams chose that number because a cup of tea fixes everything, and it's a homonymic rearrangement of "tea for two".
We'll never know for sure I guess, but I like the story anyway.
I think DA hit it on the head with this:
Oh no, not again (http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/198068-another-thing-that-got-forgotten-was-the-fact-that-against)
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I think DA hit it on the head with this:
Oh no, not again (http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/198068-another-thing-that-got-forgotten-was-the-fact-that-against)
I'm with the petunias on this one.