Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => Politics & Current Affairs => Topic started by: Hope on September 18, 2016, 03:05:43 PM
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The Government would, it seems, like to see the practice of mindfulness - a practice heavily based on Buddhist meditation techniques - introduced into the UK school system. Should the government be espousing the use of religious practices in schools? Remember that the practice of yoga, also heavily based on Eastern religious thinking - this time Hinduism - is also regularly promoted, which as it is something used by older people in Hindusim to prepare themselves for death, is somewhat odd. I realise that western Hinduism likes to downplay the role yoga plays in the 'end-of-life' process, but when all is said and done, it is just that.
Education Minister, Edward Timpson, has said that ' ...(c)hildren should be taught Buddhist meditation techniques and yoga in schools to help them "unplug from their online world"'.
http://bit.ly/2cr9dxT
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I wonder how they will filter out those kids, for whom this can be dangerous? I've seen some reports of people being taken ill after mindfulness sessions, and needing emergency treatment.
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I wonder how they will filter out those kids, for whom this can be dangerous? I've seen some reports of people being taken ill after mindfulness sessions, and needing emergency treatment.
Don't panic. The teachers and their unions can be blamed. Problem solved and of course if Ofsted monitor the situation.....................
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Don't panic. The teachers and their unions can be blamed. Problem solved and of course if Ofsted monitor the situation.....................
Problem is, I'm not sure that the teachers and unions are even on the same page as the Government with this, Vlad.
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Isn't having faith based schools far more of an issue here if one objects to religious practices in schools?
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Isn't having faith based schools far more of an issue here if one objects to religious practices in schools?
Not really, NS. In a faith-based school, one expects to meet religious practices. In a secular school, one expects to meet none or a full mix, not simply have a couple imposed by the Government.
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Religion and any other doubtful activity like this mindfulness stuff should be kept well away from schools, imo.
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Religion and any other doubtful activity like this mindfulness stuff should be kept well away from schools, imo.
Typically you are confusing mind disciplining techniques with religion. Yoga and meditations are not religious practices. They are secular practices meant to discipline the mind and body so that we develop into better humans.
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Not really, NS. In a faith-based school, one expects to meet religious practices. In a secular school, one expects to meet none or a full mix, not simply have a couple imposed by the Government.
so actually it's nothing to do with a principle about religious practices in schools that you hold, just ones you don't like, or arise from the govt.
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Typically you are confusing mind disciplining techniques with religion. Yoga and meditations are not religious practices. They are secular practices meant to discipline the mind and body so that we develop into better humans.
Sorry, Sriram, no-one is confusing mind-disciplining techniques with religion. There are a whole host of forms of meditation - many related to religious beliefs - and to have a Government Minister espouse a form that is heavily based on a particular religious understanding - as most mindfulness techniques are - is simply wrong.
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Typically you are confusing mind disciplining techniques with religion. Yoga and meditations are not religious practices. They are secular practices meant to discipline the mind and body so that we develop into better humans.
I didn't say yoga and meditations were religions practices!
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so actually it's nothing to do with a principle about religious practices in schools that you hold, just ones you don't like, or arise from the govt.
Not that, either. It's just the hyocrisy that I don't like - even hypocrisy coming from some of the NSS and BHA - speakers for which I have heard talking abouit the importance of things like Yoga and now Mindfulness.
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Sorry, Sriram, no-one is confusing mind-disciplining techniques with religion. There are a whole host of forms of meditation - many related to religious beliefs - and to have a Government Minister espouse a form that is heavily based on a particular religious understanding - as most mindfulness techniques are - is simply wrong.
The meditations are not based on a 'religious' understanding. They are based on a specific philosophical understanding of life. There is a difference.
They might have been taught and practiced over the centuries under certain religious banners...but that was only to ensure compliance. Religions insist on bathing.....does not mean bathing is a religious practice!
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There are a whole host of forms of meditation - many related to religious beliefs - and to have a Government Minister espouse a form that is heavily based on a particular religious understanding - as most mindfulness techniques are - is simply wrong.
So you would be in favour of abolishing school assemblies or at least the parts of them that are religious in nature.
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Sriram is quite right. Mindfulness is no more a specific religious practice than is communal singing. It's basically about learning to pay attention and be fully present to what's happening. Buddhists might do it but then they do all sorts of things like trying to be kind, patient and generous. Perhaps we shouldn't encourage those behaviours in schools either. Incidentally, there's a long Christian tradition of silent contemplation not unlike mindfulness, now rather neglected. But the idea that paying attention is somehow the exclusive province of a particular religion is simply bizarre. Shouldn't we be more concerned about our culture of chronic distraction?
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I didn't say yoga and meditations were religions practices!
No but you did say this: Religion and any other doubtful activity like this mindfulness stuff should be kept well away from schools, imo., putting mindfulness and religion in the same category. Some would consider yoga to be in that category.
Mindfulness is not a 'doubtful activity', it is a common sense way of calming oneself and relieving stress. I suggest you read about. Breathe deeply first and exhale slowly, thinking of nothing except exhaling your breath ;). I'm sure you'd like the colouring books, I do.
Also, what Bramble said.
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Not that, either. It's just the hyocrisy that I don't like - even hypocrisy coming from some of the NSS and BHA - speakers for which I have heard talking abouit the importance of things like Yoga and now Mindfulness.
Then why did your OP mention none of the and focus on the question of religious practices in schools schools when I asked about faith schools did you then say it was bad for this to happen with again no mention of hypocrisy@
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Hope, you are educated and sufficiently intelligent not to confuse 'Mindfulness' with Eastern religions, just because the technique may have something in common with them. So does Christian meditation come to that.
Mindfulness is not a religious practice, 'religious' in the sense of God, etc. I daresay there are those who practice it religiously just as some exercise religiously.
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The Government would, it seems, like to see the practice of mindfulness - a practice heavily based on Buddhist meditation techniques - introduced into the UK school system. Should the government be espousing the use of religious practices in schools? Remember that the practice of yoga, also heavily based on Eastern religious thinking - this time Hinduism - is also regularly promoted, which as it is something used by older people in Hindusim to prepare themselves for death, is somewhat odd. I realise that western Hinduism likes to downplay the role yoga plays in the 'end-of-life' process, but when all is said and done, it is just that.
Education Minister, Edward Timpson, has said that ' ...(c)hildren should be taught Buddhist meditation techniques and yoga in schools to help them "unplug from their online world"'.
http://bit.ly/2cr9dxT
Mindfulness and meditation are not practices exclusive to Eastern religions Hope, you may be surprised to hear that there is also Christian meditation http://wccm.org/ and that this has been encouraged in many Catholic schools for some time, though the form of meditation that is most likely to be taught in state schools would be a purely secular form, that is without any associated religious teachings.
I understand from reports from Catholic schools that the children become much calmer and have better concentration in lessons. http://wccm.org/content/meditation-children-new
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Mindfulness and meditation are not practices exclusive to Eastern religions Hope, you may be surprised to hear that there is also Christian meditation http://wccm.org/ and that this has been encouraged in many Catholic schools for some time, though the form of meditation that is most likely to be taught in state schools would be a purely secular form, that is without any associated religious teachings.
I understand from reports from Catholic schools that the children become much calmer and have better concentration in lessons. http://wccm.org/content/meditation-children-new
And? I'm fully aware of the different types of meditation, LA, and also that the Christian version is encouraged in Catholic schools. My point is that by encouraging all pupils in schools to undertake 'Mindfulness', a form highly dependent on Buddhist thinking, the Government is espousing a specific religious way of of thinking on schools and pupils. Is this appropriate in our largely secular educational system?
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Hope, you are educated and sufficiently intelligent not to confuse 'Mindfulness' with Eastern religions, just because the technique may have something in common with them. So does Christian meditation come to that.
Mindfulness is not a religious practice, 'religious' in the sense of God, etc. I daresay there are those who practice it religiously just as some exercise religiously.
Sorry, Brownie, but if you look at the practice of mindfulness, its heavy reliance on Eastern thinking can only imply a strongrelationship between the two. Secular Westerners can deny that link as much as they like, but when all is said and done, one doesn't exist without the other.
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And? I'm fully aware of the different types of meditation, LA, and also that the Christian version is encouraged in Catholic schools. My point is that by encouraging all pupils in schools to undertake 'Mindfulness', a form highly dependent on Buddhist thinking, the Government is espousing a specific religious way of of thinking on schools and pupils. Is this appropriate in our largely secular educational system?
No it's not exclusively Buddhist at all Hope. The WCCM trace these practices through the monastic movement right back to the Desert Fathers and indeed, it appears that Jesus practised contemplative prayer i.e. meditation.
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Sorry, Brownie, but if you look at the practice of mindfulness, its heavy reliance on Eastern thinking can only imply a strongrelationship between the two. Secular Westerners can deny that link as much as they like, but when all is said and done, one doesn't exist without the other.
'Eastern thinking' is not the same as 'Eastern religion', which is what Sriram was saying, to quote : "The meditations are not based on a 'religious' understanding. They are based on a specific philosophical understanding of life. There is a difference. "
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'Eastern thinking' is not the same as 'Eastern religion', which is what Sriram was saying, to quote : "The meditations are not based on a 'religious' understanding. They are based on a specific philosophical understanding of life. There is a difference. "
Mindfulness, Meditation, contemplation, these are techniques that seem to occur in virtually every religion and probably have done since humanity acquired the spark of reason - and for a very good reason. How else to you contemplate the great mysteries of life? How else can even begin to fathom our place in the universe?
But of course, the ability to calm our mind and focus our attention is extremely useful today with all the pressures and distractions that we face.
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Mindfulness, Meditation, contemplation, these are techniques that seem to occur in virtually every religion and probably have done since humanity acquired the spark of reason - and for a very good reason. How else to you contemplate the great mysteries of life? How else can even begin to fathom our place in the universe?
But of course, the ability to calm our mind and focus our attention is extremely useful today with all the pressures and distractions that we face.
Yes, I think one of the difficulties in comparing Eastern and Western views of meditation is that in the 'West' it gets confused with deep thinking, which, in a sense, is an agitation of the mind whereas 'Eastern' methods tend to be more about stilling the mind or finding a still space within and as you say the mental and physiological spin off can be useful in negotiating today's pressures. I would go so far as to say that Jesus advocated a similar method to his initiates.
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Yes, I think one of the difficulties in comparing Eastern and Western views of meditation is that in the 'West' it gets confused with deep thinking, which, in a sense, is an agitation of the mind whereas 'Eastern' methods tend to be more about stilling the mind or finding a still space within and as you say the mental and physiological spin off can be useful in negotiating today's pressures. I would go so far as to say that Jesus advocated a similar method to his initiates.
I have heard strong arguments that for example, the description of Jesus's '40 days in the wilderness' is typical of ascetic practices, which would also include meditation.
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Sorry, Brownie, but if you look at the practice of mindfulness, its heavy reliance on Eastern thinking can only imply a strongrelationship between the two. Secular Westerners can deny that link as much as they like, but when all is said and done, one doesn't exist without the other.
There is absolutely no reason for you to apologise if that is what you believe.
You may be right but so what?
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I have heard strong arguments that for example, the description of Jesus's '40 days in the wilderness' is typical of ascetic practices, which would also include meditation.
Yes, quite possibly and the temptations could be indicative of what can happen when the practices are intense and the individual feels a sudden surge of empowerment. It can inflate the ego of the unwary. The problem with the words attributed to Jesus is we don't really know if they were actually spoken or whether they were interpretations by the writers of the Gospels. Having said that, there is an interesting Greek word used but translated as 'repent'. It is metanoia (meta - inwardly beyond and noia - the mind). Just as metaphysica is beyond the physical and into the mind so metanoia is beyond the mind and perhaps into the heavenly state. So 'Repent for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand (here now)'.
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Yes, quite possibly and the temptations could be indicative of what can happen when the practices are intense and the individual feels a sudden surge of empowerment. It can inflate the ego of the unwary. The problem with the words attributed to Jesus is we don't really know if they were actually spoken or whether they were interpretations by the writers of the Gospels. Having said that, there is an interesting Greek word used but translated as 'repent'. It is metanoia (meta - inwardly beyond and noia - the mind). Just as metaphysica is beyond the physical and into the mind so metanoia is beyond the mind and perhaps into the heavenly state. So 'Repent for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand (here now)'.
ekim,you may well know that it is used as a term in psychology, but if not thought you, and indeed others on thread, might find the link interesting.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metanoia_(psychology)
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ekim,you may well know that it is used as a term in psychology, but if not thought you, and indeed others on thread, might find the link interesting.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metanoia_(psychology)
Thanks. I vaguely remember its use in the days when I had an interest in Transactional Analysis.
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Quote from: Hope on September 25, 2016, 04:52:42 PM
Sorry, Brownie, but if you look at the practice of mindfulness, its heavy reliance on Eastern thinking can only imply a strongrelationship between the two. Secular Westerners can deny that link as much as they like, but when all is said and done, one doesn't exist without the other.
Me: There is absolutely no reason for you to apologise if that is what you believe.
You may be right but so what?
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I'm still wondering what the big problem is here. Is "Eastern thinking" wrong in some way?
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Dear Brownie,
I'm still wondering what the big problem is here. Is "Eastern thinking" wrong in some way?
We can learn so much from how other cultures think and behave.
http://www.pref.osaka.lg.jp/jidoseitoshien/shugaku/g_english/shu_2_8.html
◆Cleaning time
After classes end, there is time set aside for cleaning the school. The students clean the classroom, stairwell, corridors, toilet and other rooms. Let’s all clean the place we study and use together.
Now that is a real lesson in life, a lesson in humility.
If the kids took a pride and participated in how there school looks, every child, not as a punishment but part of the real lessons in life.
But can't see it happening in this country, our little darlings cleaning the lavvy, heaven forbid :o
Gonnagle.
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I'd leave that bit out, Gonnagle. Schoolchildren taking honest work away from adults? No fear.
Smacks of the 'reformatory'.
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Dear Hope,
Never mind this mindfullness nonsense, this is how every kid should start the day.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayQyDWuCmkc
Gonnagle.
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Dear Brownie,
I'd leave that bit out, Gonnagle. Schoolchildren taking honest work away from adults? No fear.
Smacks of the 'reformatory'.
Western thinking, instilling a bit of pride in the kids place of education, how can that be a bad thing, the kids helping the Janitor, domestic, the school secretary or even helping out in the kitchen, life qualities, stop wrapping them in cotton wool.
What is educations main purpose? To prepare our kids for adulthood.
Gonnagle.
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I get your point Gonnagle, I just hate housework so that colours my attitude.
[Might surprise you to know I did attend a school for two years (aged 16-18), where we did all the cleaning, kitchen and laundry work, no domestic staff were employed.]
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Quote from: Hope on September 25, 2016, 04:52:42 PM
Sorry, Brownie, but if you look at the practice of mindfulness, its heavy reliance on Eastern thinking can only imply a strongrelationship between the two. Secular Westerners can deny that link as much as they like, but when all is said and done, one doesn't exist without the other.
Me: There is absolutely no reason for you to apologise if that is what you believe.
You may be right but so what?
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I'm still wondering what the big problem is here. Is "Eastern thinking" wrong in some way?
It is for Hope when he seems to make the following links;
Eastern thinking = Eastern Religion = not Christian = BAD
::)
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I get that, Seb, but would have thought Hope was more intelligent than to believe it.
I've come across that sort of attitude amongst Christians before; yoga is a particularly controversial subject, people imagine 'devils' crawling out of the woodwork! I've no desire to do yoga but know that exercise and meditation are good for body and mind.
There are many types of Christian meditation - Ignatian, Centering etc.
It's also therapeutic to learn how to be still and appreciate the moment which doesn't need to have anything to do with any religion (sorry, poor syntax there).
I can't see anything wrong with 'Eastern thought', to be afraid of it borders on superstition.
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I get that, Seb, but would have thought Hope was more intelligent than to believe it.
I've come across that sort of attitude amongst Christians before; yoga is a particularly controversial subject, people imagine 'devils' crawling out of the woodwork! I've no desire to do yoga but know that exercise and meditation are good for body and mind.
There are many types of Christian meditation - Ignatian, Centering etc.
It's also therapeutic to learn how to be still and appreciate the moment which doesn't need to have anything to do with any religion (sorry, poor syntax there).
I can't see anything wrong with 'Eastern thought', to be afraid of it borders on superstition.
I agree.