Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Aruntraveller on September 22, 2016, 10:52:15 AM
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Elsewhere on this forum I have been accused of not being very patriotic.
I find this kind of annoying because the accusation was made that I do not want the best for the country. This is based on the fact that I hold a different viewpoint to the poster in question.
Obviously this is risible as I could on the same grounds make the same accusation against my accuser.
Most of us will be familiar with Johnson's 'Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel' on looking at this further I came across the following thoughts:
"What he's calling attention to is that scoundrels, when challenged, will often use false patriotism in order to shut up their opponents. It's a form of Ad. Hom."
This implies that different forms of patriotism exist.
What do other posters think patriotism is, or what it should be?
Or should it exist at all?
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Elsewhere on this forum I have been accused of not being very patriotic.
I find this kind of annoying because the accusation was made that I do not want the best for the country. This is based on the fact that I hold a different viewpoint to the poster in question.
Obviously this is risible as I could on the same grounds make the same accusation against my accuser.
Most of us will be familiar with Johnson's 'Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel' on looking at this further I came across the following thoughts:
"What he's calling attention to is that scoundrels, when challenged, will often use false patriotism in order to shut up their opponents. It's a form of Ad. Hom."
This implies that different forms of patriotism exist.
What do other posters think patriotism is, or what it should be?
Or should it exist at all?
Patriotism is the, "vigorous support of one's country." You are not doing that over Brexit; far from it. So you are not being patriotic, but you are being hypocritical!
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And again proving my point.
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So if the country had a referendum on bringing back capital punishment and the hangers won - would I then have to just shut up and accept it, even though morally I think it is a totally unacceptable position?
If they brought back laws to bang up gay people - I have to accept that to?
Where do you draw the line at proscribing an individuals freedom to object?
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Not a big fan of patriotism, never understood why an accident of birth should elicit feelings of pride. Nation states seem unavoidable as a concept, and we should aim to participate in them seeking for the best for our country in the context of looking at mutual interests with other states.
While you might feel that there is an attempt to shut down discourse by using the appeal to patriotism, I would suggest much the same is done on this subject by people accusing others of being Little Englanders or racists. The idea that the 17 million who voted Brexit are all somehow worthy of those tags is ludicrous. Just as the idea that what they meant by that vote, and what vision they have of the future is the same is also ludicrous.
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Patriotism is the, "vigorous support of one's country." You are not doing that over Brexit; far from it. So you are not being patriotic, but you are being hypocritical!
if Trent thinks Brexit is bad for the country then it is not hypocritical for him to say that.
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So if the country had a referendum on bringing back capital punishment and the hangers won - would I then have to just shut up and accept it, even though morally I think it is a totally unacceptable position?
If they brought back laws to bang up deviants - I have to accept that to?
Where do you draw the line at proscribing an individuals freedom to object?
You can continue to complain, but you cannot, realistically, expect a Referendum weeks after the first. There is a distinction here between moral objections, such as capital punishment, based on conscience, and political objections which most accept are part and parcel of a democratic regime. We have General Elections to decide such matters.
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It's a cheap shot to accuse someone of being unpatriotic. I would tend to pull out of a discussion, where that happened; it's pretty much an ad hom.
It's also meaningless. There are bits of the UK that I like, and bits that I don't like, e.g. the monarchy. So what?
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We have General Elections to decide such matters.
Exactly.
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Actually, calling someone unpatriotic strikes me as nasty. That is another reason I would stop - pretty much a WUM tactic.
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Elsewhere on this forum I have been accused of not being very patriotic.
I find this kind of annoying because the accusation was made that I do not want the best for the country. This is based on the fact that I hold a different viewpoint to the poster in question.
Obviously this is risible as I could on the same grounds make the same accusation against my accuser.
Most of us will be familiar with Johnson's 'Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel' on looking at this further I came across the following thoughts:
"What he's calling attention to is that scoundrels, when challenged, will often use false patriotism in order to shut up their opponents. It's a form of Ad. Hom."
This implies that different forms of patriotism exist.
What do other posters think patriotism is, or what it should be?
Or should it exist at all?
I don't believe in being patriotic, or flag waving for the sake of it, in the sense of my country right or wrong. Whilst I wouldn't wish to live anywhere else, I more than willing to highlight things that are wrong with the place.
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I would suggest much the same is done on this subject by people accusing others of being Little Englanders or racists. The idea that the 17 million who voted Brexit are all somehow worthy of those tags is ludicrous.
Well I've never made that argument. Even so we have to accept that those subsets of thought are within the Leave contingent and guard against their ideas gaining traction.
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Well I've never made that argument. Even so we have to accept that those subsets of thought are within the Leave contingent and guard against their ideas gaining traction.
Agreed.
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if Trent thinks Brexit is bad for the country then it is not hypocritical for him to say that.
Brexit is a fact, like it or not, and now is the time for all to stand together and make the best of it. It is unpatriotic to play down your country and continually make these doom-laden and totally unsubstantiated "predictions" of the worst!
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Brexit is a fact, like it or not, and now is the time for all to stand together and make the best of it. It is unpatriotic to play down your country and continually make these doom-laden and totally unsubstantiated "predictions" of the worst!
It is unpatriotic not to face the obstacles that lie ahead and bury your head in the sand saying "It'll be alright on the night".
As I said we could go down that road forever. The accusation of being unpatriotic is false and should not be used.
Stand together with who exactly?
David Davies? Boris? (Other numpties are available).
Good grief man have you abandoned all your critical thinking?
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Actually, calling someone unpatriotic strikes me as nasty. That is another reason I would stop - pretty much a WUM tactic.
Why nasty? Facts are facts. It's nothing to do with WUM tactics: that's just a silly get-out.
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that's just a silly get-out.
As are claims of people being unpatriotic.
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Well I've never made that argument. Even so we have to accept that those subsets of thought are within the Leave contingent and guard against their ideas gaining traction.
not saying you have, but it has been made on here on occasion. There is a tendency on single issues to caricterise the other side by their worst sections.
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I too am no great fan of patriotism; it's OK and natural to feel bouyed up by things that happen by your countrymen or in your country (2012 Olympics a good example), but no more than that.
As has been mentioned on at least two occasions, Putin is admired by the new UKIP leader for his 'patriotism'. Says it all really.
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It is unpatriotic not to face the obstacles that lie ahead and bury your head in the sand saying "It'll be alright on the night".
As I said we could go down that road forever. The accusation of being unpatriotic is false and should not be used.
Stand together with who exactly?
David Davies? Boris? (Other numpties are available).
Good grief man have you abandoned all your critical thinking?
We are facing problems that need to be solved, and on that account we're ALL on the same side, Johnson Davies, me, you. I say that if you are only prepared to criticise, when we ought to be pulling together, then you are not being patriotic. Stand by your country in its efforts and stop being so NEGATIVE!
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Why nasty? Facts are facts. It's nothing to do with WUM tactics: that's just a silly get-out.
Calling someone unpatriotic opinion, not facts
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We are facing problems that need to be solved, and on that account we're ALL on the same side, Johnson Davies, me, you. I say that if you are only prepared to criticise, when we ought to be pulling together, then you are not being patriotic. Stand by your country in its efforts and stop being so NEGATIVE!
no, that's nonsense. Obviously we are not all on the same side as the referendum made clear.
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I too am no great fan of patriotism; it's OK and natural to feel bouyed up by things that happen by your countrymen or in your country (2012 Olympics a good example), but no more than that.
As has been mentioned on at least two occasions, Putin is admired by the new UKIP leader for his 'patriotism'. Says it all really.
It doesn't say it all, Brownie. There is no country more keen on patriotism than the US, and they are diametrically opposed to Putin' and his views. Most people are patriotic towards their country: it's a natural inclination and doesn't have to have sinister implications.
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We are facing problems that need to be solved, and on that account we're ALL on the same side, Johnson Davies, me, you. I say that if you are only prepared to criticise, when we ought to be pulling together, then you are not being patriotic. Stand by your country in its efforts and stop being so NEGATIVE!
Well, calling someone unpatriotic is very negative. I don't remember any posts where that happened, but it's a kind of poison in the middle of a discussion. It's also farcical, and unthinking.
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no, that's nonsense. Obviously we are not all on the same side as the referendum made clear.
It is not nonsense! The Referendum is OVER!! We are now batting on the same side, or should be, ie, for the best interests of UK!
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Well, calling someone unpatriotic is very negative. I don't remember any posts where that happened, but it's a kind of poison in the middle of a discussion. It's also farcical, and unthinking.
It's only poison, unthinking and farcical because you don't agree. Why, specifically, is it those things.
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It is not nonsense! The Referendum is OVER!! We are now batting on the same side, or should be, ie, for the best interests of UK!
Yes, and what people think is in the best interests of the UK is very different. That the referendum has been held does nothing to change that.
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It is not nonsense! The Referendum is OVER!! We are now batting on the same side, or should be, ie, for the best interests of UK!
OK - I think the best interests of the UK are served by staying within the Single market. How is that being unpatriotic?
It ensures continuity of trade with the EU. It ensures a certain level of certainty in business. It ensures some stability within our own economy.
And yet, hard Brexiters want us out of the single market. Why am I unpatriotic and they are patriotic?
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OK - I think the best interests of the UK are served by staying within the Single market. How is that being unpatriotic?
It ensures continuity of trade with the EU. It ensures a certain level of certainty in business. It ensures some stability within our own economy.
And yet, hard Brexiters want us out of the single market. Why am I unpatriotic and they are patriotic?
This is the sort of issue which underlines the vacuity of the Brexit is Brexit slogan.
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It's only poison, unthinking and farcical because you don't agree. Why, specifically, is it those things.
I see you are moving the goal-posts now. You were talking about negativity, and my point is that you are being very negative, if you are accusing someone of being unpatriotic.
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This is the sort of issue which underlines the vacuity of the Brexit is Brexit slogan.
I know. Head meet wall. Wall meet head.
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Yes, and what people think is in the best interests of the UK is very different. That the referendum has been held does nothing to change that.
Clear. You, apparently a Remainer, lost the Referendum, but are not prepared to stand by your country in its attempts to get the best deals we can. Very patriotic and positive, that!
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I see you are moving the goal-posts now. You were talking about negativity, and my point is that you are being very negative, if you are accusing someone of being unpatriotic.
Why is saying someone is unpatriotic being negative? It is a simple statement of fact.
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This is the sort of issue which underlines the vacuity of the Brexit is Brexit slogan.
I haven' been referring to specific issues. I am saying, have said, that we should stand by our country and its negotiators in landing a good deal.
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I know. Head meet wall. Wall meet head.
I find the idea that after a referendum people are supposed to magically on the same side bizarre. I am on that basis seemingly meant to believe in first past the post, no to Scottish independence, and yes to Brexit. The referendums do not change my views, just as having a general election does not mean I an supposed to support the current govt. I also can disagree with some of the proposals put forward by people theoretically on the 'same side' as me. So, for example, I am not a fan of a second referendum on any deal because I don't see how that works. If we say no to the deal, it's not a no to Brexit and I don't think we can expect the EU to continually be on negotiations til we get it right.
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I haven' been referring to specific issues. I am saying, have said, that we should stand by our country and its negotiators in landing a good deal.
and if we think their aims are not sensible then we say that. This is all about specific issues because Brexit means Brexit is vacuous. It's specific issues all the way down
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Why is saying someone is unpatriotic being negative? It is a simple statement of fact.
can you stop abusing the word fact when you mean it's a simple statement of your opinion.
Further, your opinion is that people should be patriotic and in saying that someone is unpatriotic that they are doing something you think us wrong. By definition from your own position you are using it negatively.
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I find the idea that after a referendum people are supposed to magically on the same side bizarre. I am on that basis seemingly meant to believe in first past the post, no to Scottish independence, and yes to Brexit. The referendums do not change my views, just as having a general election does not mean I an supposed to support the current govt. I also can disagree with some of the proposals put forward by people theoretically on the 'same side' as me. So, for example, I am not a fan of a second referendum on any deal because I don't see how that works. If we say no to the deal, it's not a no to Brexit and I don't think we can expect the EU to continually be on negotiations til we get it right.
I largely agree with much of that; but the big difference between this issue and say, a General Election, is that this is a once-in-a-lifetime issue, and it seems to me that we should all stand together for the better good.
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Clear. You, apparently a Remainer, lost the Referendum, but are not prepared to stand by your country in its attempts to get the best deals we can. Very patriotic and positive, that!
referendums do not change opinions if I think something is not in the interests of the country, then it is still my opinion. I also think that some of those who are in charge of these negotiations ate highly questionable. And that could be the case even had I voted to leave.
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I haven' been referring to specific issues. I am saying, have said, that we should stand by our country and its negotiators in landing a good deal.
What do you mean by 'stand by our country'?
It is not a problem with someone expressing their views about issues such as Brexit. If their views differ from the majority then so what? Patriotism is an over hyped over blown concept. Clear rational thinking, the rule of law and freedom to express ones views is much more important.
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I know. Head meet wall. Wall meet head.
A comment that could just as easily be aimed at Remainers.
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I largely agree with much of that; but the big difference between this issue and say, a General Election, is that this is a once-in-a-lifetime issue, and it seems to me that we should all stand together for the better good.
That depends though on whether or not you assess Brexit as being the better option: the majority here in Scotland clearly didn't.
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I largely agree with much of that; but the big difference between this issue and say, a General Election, is that this is a once-in-a-lifetime issue, and it seems to me that we should all stand together for the better good.
For a start it is not a single issue because there are lots of types of Brexit. Both sides in the referendum were perforce broad churches with multiple views on the way forward.
Further that it is a single issue in any sense seems irrelevant. It still doesn't change my view of what is best for the country.
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A comment that could just as easily be aimed at Remainers.
WUM
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WUM
We're descending to ya-boo sucks level now, are we?
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That depends though on whether or not you assess Brexit as being the better o
Scotland is part of the UK, and like it or not, they have to stand by the majority decision, like everyone else.
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We're descending to ya-boo sucks level now, are we?
I like to think I can sink to your level occasionally.
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That depends though on whether or not you assess Brexit as being the better option: the majority here in Scotland clearly didn't.
Scotland is part of the UK, and has to stand by the Referendum result, like it or not, just like everyone else.
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I like to think I can sink to your level occasionally.
Occasionally??
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It worries me as we see this in the US, where patriotism is being used by Trump to denigrate all kinds of people. But this is the country of McCarthy, who also used the p word to disastrous effect. As Maeght said, it destroys reasoned debate. 'You don't agree with me? You're unpatriotic'.
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Scotland is part of the UK, and has to stand by the Referendum result, like it or not, just like everyone else.
Just to note this is not factually correct. No one 'has to' stand by the result as the referendum is advisory only.
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I was going to tell Trent to ignore it, as it is a classic WUM attack, but then again, I am not noted for not rising to the bait!
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I was going to tell Trent to ignore it, as it is a classic WUM attack, but then again, I am not noted for not rising to the bait!
I was trying but :-[
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Just to note this is not factually correct. No one 'has to' stand by the result as the referendum is advisory only.
Everyone of any note considers the Refendum as binding now; apart from the Remain losers who are finding democracy hard to deal with.
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Anyway to haul us back to patriotism Anthony stated that it is:
"vigorous support of one's country."
So if Anthony's country is engaged in genocide, or the persecution of Christians I have to assume he is ok with that.
My country right or wrong and all that.
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Everyone of any note considers the Refendum as binding now; apart from the Remain losers who are finding democracy hard to deal with.
then everyone of note (whoever they might be) is factually incorrect. It is and was advisory. You can certainly argue that it should be followed but not that it has to be legally.
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Anyway to haul us back to patriotism Anthony stated that it is:
So if Anthony's country is engaged in genocide, or the persecution of Christians I have to assume he is ok with that.
My country right or wrong and all that.
Yes, this shows the idiocy of the patriotism gibe. Or what about the Iraq war? Was I supposed to support it, because it was official government action? British history is full of people who dared to swim against the tide, and no doubt, might be labelled with some nasty word.
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Anyway to haul us back to patriotism Anthony stated that it is:
So if Anthony's country is engaged in genocide, or the persecution of Christians I have to assume he is ok with that.
My country right or wrong and all that.
I am not ok with anything of the sort, and don't be so offensive, not to mention absurd. We are discussing the Referendum and its and its implications with regard to patriotism towards your country in a difficult time for us all. Please don't try and suggest anything else. I had thought better of you.
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Bash, it isn't right to accuse people of lacking 'patriotism' just because of one issue.
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I am not ok with anything of the sort, and don't be so offensive, not to mention absurd. We are discussing the Referendum and its and its implications with regard to patriotism towards your country in a difficult time for us all. Please don't try and suggest anything else. I had thought better of you.
While I don't think for a minute that you would support those things, and I am sure trent doesn't either, he's using it as a form of reductio to illustrate what he sees as being problematic with position you are expressing.
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Yes, this shows the idiocy of the patriotism gibe. Or what about the Iraq war? Was I supposed to support it, because it was official government action? British history is full of people who dared to swim against the tide, and no doubt, might be labelled with some nasty word.
Your analogy is false. The Iraq war was not a matter of this country's survival in the modern world, but in the final analysis was a moral issue. I had no doubt we were wrong there, as we were with Afghanistan, and, indeed, Libya. The referendum does not come into that category.
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Bash, it isn't right to accuse people of lacking 'patriotism' just because of one issue.
Why?
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Bash, it isn't right to accuse people of lacking 'patriotism' just because of one issue.
it is in my case since the one issue is I am not patriotic in the sense BA uses it. I see that as a good thing though
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then everyone of note (whoever they might be) is factually incorrect. It is and was advisory. You can certainly argue that it should be followed but not that it has to be legally.
The Government is taking the Referendum as binding, as the will of the people, whether it was technically advisory or not. Even Jeremy agrees with that.
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Your analogy is false. The Iraq war was not a matter of this country's survival in the modern world, but in the final analysis was a moral issue. I had no doubt we were wrong there, as we were with Afghanistan, and, indeed, Libya. The referendum does not come into that category.
well I don't see Brexit as being about the country's survival in the modern world, nor do I see the wars mentioned as being simply moral ones, nor have you made the case that there is this difference between moral/political issues that mean people should shut up about one and not the other.
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it is in my case since the one issue is I am not patriotic in the sense BA uses it. I see that as a good thing though
Are you clear in what sense I am using it?
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The Government is taking the Referendum as binding, as the will of the people, whether it was technically advisory or not. Even Jeremy agrees with that.
They are acting on it, that does not mean it was. Factually it was not and is not.
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well I don't see Brexit as being about the country's survival in the modern world, nor do I see the wars mentioned as being simply moral ones, nor have you made the case that there is this difference between moral/political issues that mean people should shut up about one and not the other.
I never said that you should shut up about one and not the other. How did you come to that conclusion? I am saying that they should be viewed from different perspectives: one as a moral issue, the other as a domestic political issue.
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Are you clear in what sense I am using it?
I was using your earlier definition. You can see why I don't qualify by my first post on the thread.
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Your analogy is false. The Iraq war was not a matter of this country's survival in the modern world, but in the final analysis was a moral issue. I had no doubt we were wrong there, as we were with Afghanistan, and, indeed, Libya. The referendum does not come into that category.
That's just your opinion, though. There are people, believe or not, who think Brexit is damaging to the UK. Oh I forgot, they aren't patriots, because they disagree with you. This is totalitarian thinking.
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They are acting on it, that does not mean it was. Factually it was not and is not.
I am not disputing that it was advisory: the advice the Government has gleaned from the clear majority is that we should leave the EU.
And there I take a break in order to go and peel the spuds for dinner!
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I have to laugh when people talk about Remain losers, who should shut up. Euro-skeptics have spent 40 years complaining about the EU,. but then I suppose they are patriots, so that's OK.
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I never said that you should shut up about one and not the other. How did you come to that conclusion? I am saying that they should be viewed from different perspectives: one as a moral issue, the other as a domestic political issue.
Well you think that Trent should behave differently and not say what he thinks because that is unpatriotic in the case of the referendum but not in the cases of the war. That seems to be saying what I suggested.
Again simply saying that one thing is a moral decision and another a political one (not sure what the addition of 'domestic' is intended to do there), is not making a case for them being treated differently in the way you are suggesting. Indeed it appears that you are in a form of circular argument where you say they should be treated differently and when asked why say because they are different.
All that is leaving aside that you have not made the case that they can actually be described as moral issues or political issues. Indeed the idea that you think Trent should behave in a certain way here seems to make it sound as if you see this as a moral issue.
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I am not disputing that it was advisory: the advice the Government has gleaned from the clear majority is that we should leave the EU.
And there I take a break in order to go and peel the spuds for dinner!
your statement was that everyone had to accept it, they don't therefore I assume you retract the statement
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There is also the problem of changing boundaries and conflicting political issues surrounding the object of the patriotism.
The current Brexit situation highlights the difference between Scotland and rUK on this issue so it would seem inconsistent for those of us Scots who are pro-EU and pro-Independence to be patriotic about a UK that on this issue doesn't reflect the consensus here and seems to be working against our long term interests. If we were to fall in line with Brexit out of UK patriotism alone, as BA seems to suggest, this is surely inconsistent with a political consensus in Scotland that is predominantly negative in its assessment of the practical and political issues of Brexit on Scotland.
In this scenario it seems patriotism directed towards the UK is both redundant and incongruous. That some of us regard the Brexit outcome as fundamentally unacceptable doesn't allow us to adopt a 'my country right or wrong' attitude based on patriotism alone: we'd be scoundrels to think that way.
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Everyone of any note considers the Refendum as binding now; apart from the Remain losers who are finding democracy hard to deal with.
I think the problem that the 'Remain losers', as you call them, have is that the 'Leave victors' don't seem to have the slightest idea what to do.
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I think the problem that the 'Remain losers', as you call them, have is that the 'Leave victors' don't seem to have the slightest idea what to do.
The referendum result means that everyone has lost - the Leave campaigners just don't realise it yet.
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Why?
Several reasons:
Could be construed as offensive, is certainly "having a go" at a poster rather than having a go at what the poster said.
Is too much of a sweeping statement.
Absolutely pointless.
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Several reasons:
Could be construed as offensive, is certainly "having a go" at a poster rather than having a go at what the poster said.
Is too much of a sweeping statement.
Absolutely pointless.
Like so many things patriotism strikes me as being in the eye of the beholder.
Still you can always get it out with Optrex (with thanks to S.Milligan)
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Bash, it isn't right to accuse people of lacking 'patriotism' just because of one issue.
Its just nonsense. If someone thinks that the country is heading in the wrong direction it is surely their 'patriotic duty' to point that out.
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Several reasons:
Could be construed as offensive, is certainly "having a go" at a poster rather than having a go at what the poster said.
Is too much of a sweeping statement.
Absolutely pointless.
No offence was intended, and I rather doubt the posters on here would be offended: abuse and foul language don't offend them, why should an observation I made with regard to their attitude to Brexit? So I was not having a go, I was making a valid point based on my observations of their attitudes. Finally, it's not pointless: it's a point made in debate.
Incidently, you pick me up on what I say, but you don't appear to be taking note of some of the robust comments made to me.
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Its just nonsense. If someone thinks that the country is heading in the wrong direction it is surely their 'patriotic duty' to point that out.
Yes, it becomes absurd. I am more patriotic than you - because I say so.
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The referendum result means that everyone has lost - the Leave campaigners just don't realise it yet.
L.A.,
List the things irretrievably lost.
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Its just nonsense. If someone thinks that the country is heading in the wrong direction it is surely their 'patriotic duty' to point that out.
They have had that opportunity in the Referendum. Now that we have voted out, they should stand up for the country and debate the best ways to now deal with the reality of Brexit.
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They have had that opportunity in the Referendum. Now that we have voted out, they should stand up for the country and debate the best ways to now deal with the reality of Brexit.
There you go again with the phrase 'stand up for the country', whatever that means. If you think the best thing for the country is to stay in then 'standing up for the country' would mean continuing to argue against Brexit wouldn't it. Otherwise it would be just going along with the majority even though you think it is a bad thing - which doesn't sound very patriotic to me.
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They have had that opportunity in the Referendum. Now that we have voted out, they should stand up for the country and debate the best ways to now deal with the reality of Brexit.
We should indeed stand up for our country, and in our case (Scotland) the best way to deal with Brexit would be by us becoming a separate country.
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We should indeed stand up for our country, and in our case (Scotland) the best way to deal with Brexit would be by us becoming a separate country.
You well know that if you had won the first, and probably only Referendum, with the catastrophic drop in oil prices, you would be on the verge of bankruptcy now. Didn't the saintly Salmond burble something about the Referendum being a once in a life-time opportunity? Anyway, it's by no means a given that you could easily access the EU.
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You well know that if you had won the first, and probably only Referendum, with the catastrophic drop in oil prices, you would be on the verge of bankruptcy now. Didn't the saintly Salmond burble something about the Referendum being a once in a life-time opportunity? Anyway, it's by no means a given that you could easily access the EU.
But you were posting that the UK was bankrupt only a few days ago, which given that it isn't in terms of what bankrupt means, could be seen by some as unpatriotic.
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You well know that if you had won the first, and probably only Referendum, with the catastrophic drop in oil prices, you would be on the verge of bankruptcy now. Didn't the saintly Salmond burble something about the Referendum being a once in a life-time opportunity? Anyway, it's by no means a given that you could easily access the EU.
Things have changed, obviously, and of course we were told then that if we wanted to stay in the EU we really should stay in the UK: we have been betrayed, given enough of you guys voted Tory and then voted Leave.
Hopefully we'll be able to abandon the sinking ship before it finally sinks.
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They have had that opportunity in the Referendum. Now that we have voted out, they should stand up for the country and debate the best ways to now deal with the reality of Brexit.
I think they are doing just that, BA - though the Leaver supporters seem to be the least active in that debate. All they seem to be concerned about is that others - mostly those who didn't vote to leave - aren't sorting everything out on their behalf.
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Things have changed, obviously, and of course we were told then that if we wanted to stay in the EU we really should stay in the UK: we have been betrayed, given enough of you guys voted Tory and then voted Leave.
Hopefully we'll be able to abandon the sinking ship before it finally sinks.
Sadly, Gordon, the places that voted to leave most were Labour areas. Ironically, they were the very same places that have benefited most from European monies; i.e. Blaenau Gwent, England's North East, Cornwall.
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Sadly, Gordon, the places that voted to leave most were Labour areas. Ironically, they were the very same places that have benefited most from European monies; i.e. Blaenau Gwent, England's North East, Cornwall.
Cornwall, that Labour heartland
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I thought that great swathes of Tory England voted Leave. For example, the whole of East Anglia voted Leave, except for Norwich.
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Sadly, Gordon, the places that voted to leave most were Labour areas. Ironically, they were the very same places that have benefited most from European monies; i.e. Blaenau Gwent, England's North East, Cornwall.
The issue for us Scots though is that the message of us being forced out of the EU if we voted for independence and that if we really wanted to stay in the EU we should stay in the UK influenced the choice that some Scots made - which is a separate issue to the EU referendum result elsewhere in the UK where these areas never had the option we had.
That most Scots wanted to stay in the EU was confirmed by the recent referendum - so we were sold a pup: no question about it.
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Cornwall, that Labour heartland
Note that there was a fullstop in the middle of my post, NS. Therefore, my reference to Cornwall referred to the comment about most benefiting. I could I suppose have refenced the S. Wales valleys - who all voted to leave and who all return Labour AMs, MPs and MEPs.
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I thought that great swathes of Tory England voted Leave. For example, the whole of East Anglia voted Leave, except for Norwich.
But if you look at the referendum result maps, the remain votes were highest in Tory strongholds as well.
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The issue for us Scots though is that the message of us being forced out of the EU if we voted for independence and that if we really wanted to stay in the EU we should stay in the UK influenced the choice that some Scots made - which is a separate issue to the EU referendum result elsewhere in the UK where these areas never had the option we had.
That most Scots wanted to stay in the EU was confirmed by the recent referendum - so we were sold a pup: no question about it.
I think the problem England and Wales have is that Tory MPs more or less reflect the split in opinion within the Tory Party membership in regard to the EU: Labour's MPs, on the other hand, don't seem to represent their membership's opinions to the same degree. The same could possibly be said about the pre-2015 General Election Lib Dem party.
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But if you look at the referendum result maps, the remain votes were highest in Tory strongholds as well.
London, Scotland and Northern Ireland?
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I think the problem England and Wales have is that Tory MPs more or less reflect the split in opinion within the Tory Party membership in regard to the EU: Labour's MPs, on the other hand, don't seem to represent their membership's opinions to the same degree. The same could possibly be said about the pre-2015 General Election Lib Dem party.
Which is very nice but doesn't relate to the fact that the reassurances we were given by the 'Better Together' brigade turned out to be bogus - would you not agree?
Therefore, in my view, BA's view that we should patriotically get behind Brexit is perverse in the extreme.
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Note that there was a fullstop in the middle of my post, NS. Therefore, my reference to Cornwall referred to the comment about most benefiting. I could I suppose have refenced the S. Wales valleys - who all voted to leave and who all return Labour AMs, MPs and MEPs.
you mentioned three areas following an I.e. including Cornwall, see below.
Your comment about the fullstop makes no sense unless none of the areas where to be taken as instances of your claim in which case the entire post is nonsensical.
'Sadly, Gordon, the places that voted to leave most were Labour areas. Ironically, they were the very same places that have benefited most from European monies; i.e. Blaenau Gwent, England's North East, Cornwall.'
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No offence was intended, and I rather doubt the posters on here would be offended: abuse and foul language don't offend them, why should an observation I made with regard to their attitude to Brexit? So I was not having a go, I was making a valid point based on my observations of their attitudes. Finally, it's not pointless: it's a point made in debate.
Incidently, you pick me up on what I say, but you don't appear to be taking note of some of the robust comments made to me.
Show me one then Bash. I have just read through the entire thread looking for same.
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Show me one then Bash. I have just read through the entire thread looking for same.
You must have skipped over M54 then, which is a scurrilous and pretty awful over the top thing to say.
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You must have skipped over M54 then, which is a scurrilous and pretty awful over the top thing to say.
Oh was it heck. You had it explained to you.
Now, you may find this insulting - if you are too stupid to understand that post then nobody should be taking your posts seriously.
But to be clear I don't think you are too stupid to understand it - I just think you are playing a petty game. Oh poor me, picked on by that nasty TV.
Really Bashers go back to peeling your spuds.
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Oh was it heck. You had it explained to you.
Now, you may find this insulting - if you are too stupid to understand that post then nobody should be taking your posts seriously.
But to be clear I don't think you are too stupid to understand it - I just think you are playing a petty game. Oh poor me, picked on by that nasty TV.
Really Bashers go back to peeling your spuds.
Just when did you explain it? Remind me. And now I'm too stupid as well, eh? Calm down; it's just a discussion, and because you are palpably losing it, you are getting over-heated.
I feel like a few spuds, later: I need my spuds!
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Just when did you explain it? Remind me. And now I'm too stupid as well, eh? Calm down; it's just a discussion, and because you are palpably losing it, you are getting over-heated.
I feel like a few spuds, later: I need my spuds!
I am presuming Trent means I explained it in reply #59. You will note in his post that he did not say he had explained it. You made that bit up.
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Just when did you explain it? Remind me. And now I'm too stupid as well, eh? Calm down; it's just a discussion, and because you are palpably losing it, you are getting over-heated.
I feel like a few spuds, later: I need my spuds!
Are you misreading things now. Or did you miss this bit:
But to be clear I don't think you are too stupid to understand it
Anyway, how am I losing this discussion. I am still awaiting proof from you that I am unpatriotic. You don't even seem to be able to cope with a challenge to the definition of patriotism that you yourself provided.
It's not me who is getting over-heated. It must be positively balmy in Bulwell. ;D
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I am presuming Trent means I explained it in reply #59. You will note in his post that he did not say he had explained it. You made that bit up.
I did NOT say he explained it. I asked him to remind me when he had, knowing full well he couldn't, and that you had, sort of. Though why you are his apologist I don't know. The fact is, he said it, in a moment of ire, no doubt.
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Nope not in a moment of ire.
I've not had one of those in quite awhile.
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Nope not in a moment of ire.
I've not had one of those in quite awhile.
Then your reprehensible little comment was intended, and you make NS look silly trying to explain your nasty comment away.
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Then your reprehensible little comment was intended, and you make NS look silly trying to explain your nasty comment away.
Anthony you put a definition of patriotism up that allows for anything. I simply challenged it.
That is all there is to it. You latched onto it as if it was some kind of challenge to your moral standing or something. It wasn't it was a challenge to the poorly ill-defined statement posted.
I'm still awaiting an explanation as to why my opposition to leaving the EU is unpatriotic.
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I did NOT say he explained it. I asked him to remind me when he had, knowing full well he couldn't, and that you had, sort of. Though why you are his apologist I don't know. The fact is, he said it, in a moment of ire, no doubt.
so you deliberately implied that he said he had experiences kained, when you knew he hadn"t said that and what he meant. That means you deliberately lied, classy!
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so you deliberately implied that he said he had experiences kained, when you knew he hadn"t said that and what he meant. That means you deliberately lied, classy!
Very sorry, but your post makes no sense.
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Very sorry, but your post makes no sense.
NS may, I think, be posting from his phone - which sometimes chews up words. But his meaning is clear as you well know.
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Dear Sir,
Patriotism!! I am a totally unpatriotic type chap, I stubbed my toe stepping out of the shower, I blamed the Tories >:(
Gonnagle.
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Dear Sir,
Patriotism!! I am a totally unpatriotic type chap, I stubbed my toe stepping out of the shower, I blamed the Tories >:(
Gonnagle.
What's that got to do with patriotism Gonnagle?
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Anthony you put a definition of patriotism up that allows for anything. I simply challenged it.
That is all there is to it. You latched onto it as if it was some kind of challenge to your moral standing or something. It wasn't it was a challenge to the poorly ill-defined statement posted.
I'm still awaiting an explanation as to why my opposition to leaving the EU is unpatriotic.
I have explained it already: try and follow. But you are evading the issue as to your most unpleasant comment about genocide and Christian persecution, so completely over the top. Your response here is classic: try and detract by changing the subject. I am truly surprised, and rather disappointed, at such unbecoming comments. I had thought you a more controlled and mild person.
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Very sorry, but your post makes no sense.
predictive text!!! And a temperamental phone
so you deliberately implied that he said he had explained when you knew he hadn"t said that and what he meant. That means you deliberately lied, classy
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Dear Sir,
Patriotism!! I am a totally unpatriotic type chap, I stubbed my toe stepping out of the shower, I blamed the Tories >:(
Gonnagle.
And good morning to you sir, and you are of course quite right to blame them.
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predictive text!!! And a temperamental phone
so you deliberately implied that he said he had explained when you knew he hadn"t said that and what he meant. That means you deliberately lied, classy
I made no such implication: you are making up what you want to think I said. Not classy.
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I have explained it already: try and follow. But you are evading the issue as to your most unpleasant comment about genocide and Christian persecution, so completely over the top. Your response here is classic: try and detract by changing the subject. I am truly surprised, and rather disappointed, at such unbecoming comments. I had thought you a more controlled and mild person.
no, you haven't actually explained it. So far all you've done is asserted that somehow for issues that you have deemed 'domestic political issues' which have a referendum , everyone is suddenly supposed to change their mind about what they think is best for the country. You have been asked why that should be but no explanation has been forthcoming.
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I have explained it already: try and follow. But you are evading the issue as to your most unpleasant comment about genocide and Christian persecution, so completely over the top. Your response here is classic: try and detract by changing the subject. I am truly surprised, and rather disappointed, at such unbecoming comments. I had thought you a more controlled and mild person.
Actually if you look at the thread, you are the one who derailed it as early as post#2. I simply used your accusation of lack of patriotism to start a thread on that subject.
You, of course, draqged it back to the EU.
So actually your response is classic of a troll who is obsessed with one subject.
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I made no such implication: you are making up what you want to think I said. Not classy.
To quote you
Just when did you explain it? Remind me. ' there you are. Please stop lying.
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Dear Maeght,
What's that got to do with patriotism Gonnagle?
Weeelll!! It's all to do with Brexit, right!! right :) Brexit is a Tory fiasco, right!! right :) Bashers wants us all to stop whinging and get behind Brexit, right!! right :) so I am unpatriotic in not getting behind the Tory fiasco, right!! right :( I blame the Tories for all our ills, even me stubbing my toe stepping out of the shower, right!! right >:(
Gonnagle.
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To quote you
Just when did you explain it? Remind me. ' there you are. Please stop lying.
Read M106, and stop trying to misrepresent me, not that it's actually your argument. Trent made an unpleasant comment, with innuendo; and that's the whole point. Either he retracts what he implied about my attitude, or he means it. Simple.
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NS may, I think, be posting from his phone - which sometimes chews up words. But his meaning is clear as you well know.
I don't own a mobile phone, and had no idea how they may behave. Perhaps he should have checked what he had written before posting. It seems you and he are mutual apologists: how cosy!
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Dear Bashers,
You don't own a mobile!! man!! how I envy you.
Gonnagle.
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Dear Bashers,
You don't own a mobile!! man!! how I envy you.
Gonnagle.
I had a mobile when I retired, 12 years ago, and strictly speaking, I actually still have it, I think, somewhere, but it didn't work. I have managed very well without it!
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Dear Maeght,
Weeelll!! It's all to do with Brexit, right!! right :) Brexit is a Tory fiasco, right!! right :) Bashers wants us all to stop whinging and get behind Brexit, right!! right :) so I am unpatriotic in not getting behind the Tory fiasco, right!! right :( I blame the Tories for all our ills, even me stubbing my toe stepping out of the shower, right!! right >:(
No, patriotism is about the country not a politiacl aprty or single issue. Sorry to hear about your toe though.
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Anyway to haul us back to patriotism Anthony stated that it is:
So if Anthony's country is engaged in genocide, or the persecution of Christians I have to assume he is ok with that.
My country right or wrong and all that.
I think that is a reasonable post given the direction of the thread. I had actually thought of similar but not in those words! I imagined the UK going to war, perhaps being persuaded into it, with no hope of winning and for very doubtful reasons (as if...), the troops and the general public being whipped into a patriotic fervor about "fighting for our country", regardless of the rights and wrongs.
However I don't think you had any intention of being insulting, the word 'patriotism' has all sorts of connotations and doesn't necessarily mean nationalistic. Neither is an unpatriotic person someone who does not care for the country they were born and/or grew up in.
Well done to you not having a mobile! I cannot imagine being without one though I suppose I managed OK twenty years ago as we all did - but it is so handy.
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Dear Maeght,
No, patriotism is about the country not a politiacl aprty or single issue. Sorry to hear about your toe though.
But! But!! isn't Bashers beating Trent about the head regarding his patriotism for not getting behind Brexit, which is!! and just because I like saying it, a Tory fiasco >:(
Gonnagle.
PS: And also so very true :(
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This is what Bashful said at the beginning of the thread: Patriotism is the, "vigorous support of one's country." You are not doing that over Brexit; far from it. So you are not being patriotic, but you are being hypocritical!
so he was making a connection between Brexit and patriotism. Indeed many Brexit-ers do bang on in a type of patriotic way, "Our country", "Our people", etc ( or "These foreigners", "Those foreigners" or even "Them foreigners").
Still I feel I've bashed the Bashful a bit of late, which wasn't intended at the start, so won't say any more about him.
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Agree with you Gonnagle though it does appear that voters from all political persuasions voted Leave.
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Dear Maeght,
But! But!! isn't Bashers beating Trent about the head regarding his patriotism for not getting behind Brexit, which is!! and just because I like saying it, a Tory fiasco >:(
Gonnagle.
PS: And also so very true :(
He is, but the point people are making of course is that that isn't a question of patriotism. Do carry on with saying Tory fiasco - I like the sound of that!
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This is what Bashful said at the beginning of the thread: Patriotism is the, "vigorous support of one's country." You are not doing that over Brexit; far from it. So you are not being patriotic, but you are being hypocritical!
so he was making a connection between Brexit and patriotism. Indeed many Brexit-ers do bang on in a type of patriotic way, "Our country", "Our people", etc ( or "These foreigners", "Those foreigners" or even "Them foreigners").
Still I feel I've bashed the Bashful a bit of late, which wasn't intended at the start, so won't say any more about him.
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Agree with you Gonnagle though it does appear that voters from all political persuasions voted Leave.
Just to be quite clear, and finally; I said, and believe, that now Brexit is a done thing we should stand by our country and support the negotiators in their efforts, and that would be the patriotic thing to do. Surely, whatever their persuasion, everyone wants to see the best to suit us all, and that is being patriotic towards our fellows citizens. End of!
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Dear Bashers, ( how are you old son ;) )
But! But!! We are not seeing any negotiating, why? the ones doing the negotiating do not have a clue, the Tories ( the ones who created this fiasco ) are in a whole new world, nobody! I mean nobody thought this would happen, not the Leavers or the Remainers, no plan of action.
The Tory guy in charge of this Tory fiasco, David somebody, I read somewhere that he wanted a meeting with all the top company executives, they all told him to go and get fracked, he also sent them all a wee leaflet to fill in, it was scrunched up and thrown in the bin.
We don't know Bashers old son what we have to get behind, according to Jack Knave ( our resident Brexit man ) the Tories are negotiating with something which is on its last legs.
What is it they are actually negotiating? As far as I can tell it's all about keeping Johnny Foreigner out of this country, can we do this, I don't think so but maybe there is a masterplan. :o
Gonnagle.
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Just to be quite clear, and finally; I said, and believe, that now Brexit is a done thing we should stand by our country and support the negotiators in their efforts, and that would be the patriotic thing to do. Surely, whatever their persuasion, everyone wants to see the best to suit us all, and that is being patriotic towards our fellows citizens. End of!
Depends on what 'best' is: as it stands I think the 'best' thing is for Scotland to get out of the UK.
It is impossible to feel patriotic about a UK that doesn't represent the views of Scotland on this critical matter, that we were misled about in 2014, and now seems hell-bent on pursuing an irreversible policy that has no planning to speak of.
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Dear Bashers, ( how are you old son ;) )
But! But!! We are not seeing any negotiating, why? the ones doing the negotiating do not have a clue, the Tories ( the ones who created this fiasco ) are in a whole new world, nobody! I mean nobody thought this would happen, not the Leavers or the Remainers, no plan of action.
The Tory guy in charge of this Tory fiasco, David somebody, I read somewhere that he wanted a meeting with all the top company executives, they all told him to go and get fracked, he also sent them all a wee leaflet to fill in, it was scrunched up and thrown in the bin.
We don't know Bashers old son what we have to get behind, according to Jack Knave ( our resident Brexit man ) the Tories are negotiating with something which is on its last legs.
What is it they are actually negotiating? As far as I can tell it's all about keeping Johnny Foreigner out of this country, can we do this, I don't think so but maybe there is a masterplan. :o
Gonnagle.
Hi, Gonners old son. Good to see you as chirpy as ever.
I am no Tory, and yes there was no plan. But that was 100% due to the arrogant/Osborne partnership. In their incompetent self-assurance they thought It was all tied up, especially as they had conducted an unfair, in fact, undemocratic, campaign We now have Theresa May and particularly David Davies to put a plan together. Those who argue it should have been done earlier, do not properly appreciate Cameron's hold on his Cabinet. He forbade Brexit ministers to campaign until Purdah set in; they were not allowed to use Civil Service or Treasury resources for research or help in speech-making, for the whole campaign; they were not granted any public money, and had to rely on donations, whilst the Remainers were allocated £9million of tax-payer's money! This was disgraceful, and undemocratic. So, how was any non-Remainer expected to build a plan? We have to hope they are making up lost time. But to expect regular up-dates is silly: you don't give out your negotiating position until you are ready.
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Depends on what 'best' is: as it stands I think the 'best' thing is for Scotland to get out of the UK.
It is impossible to feel patriotic about a UK that doesn't represent the views of Scotland on this critical matter, that we were misled about in 2014, and now seems hell-bent on pursuing an irreversible policy that has no planning to speak of.
Seems all these Referendum losers just keep on whingeing. We are not France, Ireland or Denmark who can be bullied into having a Referendum over-turned till it suits the Government, or the losers.
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He forbade Brexit ministers to campaign until Purdah set in;
Quite rightly as the Government's official position was to support remaining - hence a Government minister must follow that line under collective responsibility or else resign from government to permit him or her to campaign to leave. This is standard practice and applies to all other official government positions under collective responsibility.
they were not allowed to use Civil Service or Treasury resources for research or help in speech-making, for the whole campaign;
Again quite rightly - the civil service and treasury are there to support the Government in the delivery of its policies, and the Government policy was to hold a referendum (and of course both the Civil Service and Treasury supported the delivery of that policy, i.e. a referendum). Secondly Government policy was to remain in the EU and therefore it would be completely unreasonable for the Civil Service to use its resources in support of a policy diametrically opposed to the government.
they were not granted any public money, and had to rely on donations, whilst the Remainers were allocated £9million of tax-payer's money! This was disgraceful, and undemocratic.
Wrong again - it is standard practice and completely constitutional. When a government calls a referendum it is allowed to inform the electorate of the official government position on that referendum using public money. It is then up to both sides to make the case outside of government (i.e. in purdah) using their own resources. This is what has happened in every referendum - why should it have been different for this one. Sounds like special pleading to me.
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There is a Brexit thread isn't there?
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Quite rightly as the Government's official position was to support remaining - hence a Government minister must follow that line under collective responsibility or else resign from government to permit him or her to campaign to leave. This is standard practice and applies to all other official government positions under collective responsibility.
Again quite rightly - the civil service and treasury are there to support the Government in the delivery of its policies, and the Government policy was to hold a referendum (and of course both the Civil Service and Treasury supported the delivery of that policy, i.e. a referendum). Secondly Government policy was to remain in the EU and therefore it would be completely unreasonable for the Civil Service to use its resources in support of a policy diametrically opposed to the government.
Wrong again - it is standard practice and completely constitutional. When a government calls a referendum it is allowed to inform the electorate of the official government position on that referendum using public money. It is then up to both sides to make the case outside of government (i.e. in purdah) using their own resources. This is what has happened in every referendum - why should it have been different for this one. Sounds like special pleading to me.
All very well; but when the incumbent Government use its resources to produce at best dubious data, then it becomes a serious mis-use of power. We were told there was a security risk, yet that is a NATO matter; we were told an emergency budget was essential. That was not true. We had reports from the Treasury predicting a £4,000 loss to each families' annual income in the years ahead, and all that on spurious data. We had other silly predictions, so that Joseph Stiglitz, Nobel Prize winner in economics, was constrained to say they were "not worth the paper they were written on." Under such dubious circumstances, and in the face of such predictions, it would have been fair and democratic to allow Brexiteers the means of proper reply. After all, this was a change in the offing which will affect us all for a very long time to come.. It's just happy that the majority saw through all that dubious behaviour.
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Seems all these Referendum losers just keep on whingeing. We are not France, Ireland or Denmark who can be bullied into having a Referendum over-turned till it suits the Government, or the losers.
In my case, given the idiocy foisted upon us by the UK, then the 'we' that concerns me is Scotland.
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In my case, given the idiocy foisted upon us by the UK, then the 'we' that concerns me is Scotland.
Sorry, Gordon. Scotland is part of the UK; so it's we," and likely to remain so.
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Sorry, Gordon. Scotland is part of the UK; so it's we," and likely to remain so.
Sadly that is the case currently - hopefully that will change in due course.
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Sadly that is the case currently - hopefully that will change in due course.
I'm afraid it's a "don't hold your breath" scenario.
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I'm afraid it's a "don't hold your breath" scenario.
Brexit is pretty much the sole reason it's much of a possibility just now.
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All very well; but when the incumbent Government use its resources to produce at best dubious data
Don't make me laugh - the masters of the dodgy data were without doubt the brexiters - £350million extra a week for the NHS - remember that, remember it was on the side of their campaign bus. Remember that the Office for National Statistics effectively told them they were lying but they carried on telling that lie, day after day after day.
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we were told an emergency budget was essential.
Really - so you know exactly what is going to be in the Chancellor's Autumn statement do you - astonishing. There are, of course, strong indications that he is going to have to pump significant additional money into the economy to head off a brexit-vote derived slowing of economic growth. And within weeks of the vote (and pretty well at the first opportunity) the Bank of England halved its base interest rate and brought in a raft of other measures aimed at stimulating the economy to prevent or reduce a brexit-vote driven slump.
Haven't you been paying attention BA.
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Don't make me laugh - the masters of the dodgy data were without doubt the brexiters - £350million extra a week for the NHS - remember that, remember it was on the side of their campaign bus. Remember that the Office for National Statistics effectively told them they were lying but they carried on telling that lie, day after day after day.
So, you trade one alleged lie for a whole gamut by the Government, for goodness' sake. Cameron/Osborne spewed out their lies from the word go, right up to the wire. Their lying and deceitfulness were a disgrace for an elected Government we had every right to trust to tell us the truth. They were told they were lying, and went on doing so, over and over. And then, at the end, Cameron broke his word, again, about staying to see it through for the British people, and the "country I love." I suppose he's now somewhere planning how he will feather his nest even further!
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So, you trade one alleged lie for a whole gamut by the Government, for goodness' sake.
Nope - there were lies after lies from the Brexit side - most notably the notion that we can be full members of the single market and also restrict freedom of movement. Plus all the lies about the net contributions to the EU, plus any number of mis-truths on the EU itself, often involving blaming the EU for issues that were squarely in the power of the Westminster Government. Plus add in a sprinkle of Turkey joining within a year and the whole campaign was effectively lie after lie.
Cameron/Osborne spewed out their lies from the word go, right up to the wire. Their lying and deceitfulness were a disgrace for an elected Government we had every right to trust to tell us the truth.
Nope they used data from highly respected independent economic organisations. And indeed their predictions have not been proven wrong, and indeed much of what they suggested has in fact happened.
And then, at the end, Cameron broke his word, again, about staying to see it through for the British people, and the "country I love." I suppose he's now somewhere planning how he will feather his nest even further!
I will agree with you there, but that was largely political. Effectively Cameron couldn't say he would go as it would then become a referendum on him and his government, rather than on the EU. But anyone with any intelligence recognised that his position would be completely untenable if he lost the referendum. He was always going to go if he lost.
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There is a Brexit thread isn't there?
Yes, a few; on page 3 of this forum and in the Politics forum.
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So can't we stick to patriotism rather than getting into the ins and outs of Brexit here too.
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In his op, Trent suggests that there is more than one type of patriotism, with which I agree.
This article addresses the subject quite well:
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/patriotism/
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It doesn't say it all, Brownie. There is no country more keen on patriotism than the US, and they are diametrically opposed to Putin' and his views. Most people are patriotic towards their country: it's a natural inclination and doesn't have to have sinister implications.
Not totally true, Donald Trump seems to be extolling his virtues.
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You're right there, Rose. I just found this on a CNBC site:
Trump, the Republican candidate, has been criticized by Clinton, his Democratic Party rival, for praising Putin as a strong leader and saying ties with Moscow should be improved at a time when Moscow and Washington are at odds over Syria and Ukraine.
The Kremlin has tried to take a neutral stance on the U.S. election, saying it will respect the choice of the American people, though Kremlin-backed TV channels have tilted their coverage in favor of Trump, whom Putin called "very talented."
Is a bromance brewing, I wonder?
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Well, both Trump and Putin adhere to one type of patriotism so they have that in common
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Patriotism is an emotional attachment to a nation which an individual recognizes as their homeland. This attachment, also known as national feeling or national pride, can be viewed in terms of different features relating to one's own nation, including ethnic, cultural, political or historical aspects. It encompasses a set of concepts closely related to those of nationalism.[1][2][3] An excess of patriotism in the defense of a nation is called chauvinism; another related term is jingoism.
Being Patriotic is subjective and depends how you see your homeland.
The set of concepts can range from being a monarchy supporter to having a roast on Sunday.
It's revelling in the things that you feel indigenous people share in common.
It can include multi ethnic or not, depending on the wideness of a persons inclusiveness.
If you fall outside things which people consider " British" some people will think you are not patriotic. ( example: British born Islamic radicals calling for Sharia law and insulting our troops would be considered as not being patriotic and respecting our Remembrance Day)
However others who may be Muslim may be considered Patriotic because they showed respect instead.
Or ...
For example, not supporting Royalty, or not excepting a set of values shared by most.
Therefore not standing together with your fellow Brits when the chips are down, ranks as not being patriotic.
It's about supporting others who share the same values and culture
It's tribal and of course we don't all share everything, we all just have slightly different perceptions of what it means to be British, Irish, Welsh, Scottish or English.
You tend to get called unpatriotic if you don't share important values others think you should have.
It's subjective though.
I tend to think patriotism is fine to enjoy until you make someone else uncomfortable and an outcast with it.
If you can share different ones, like Spanish or French and enjoy sharing, so much the better.
I quite enjoy quite a few ethnic ones when I get chance with the right person to share as do many others even if it's struggling with chopsticks and sushi ;)
Being unpatriotic because of not supporting Brexit would be because it's considered "British " to accept a democratic vote and make the best of it.
Because they are still your fellow countrymen, even if you don't agree.
I don't see Trent as being unpatriotic, but I can see why someone might.
It's because we are expected to all pull together and not be the weakest link.
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Rose: I tend to think patriotism is fine to enjoy until you make someone else uncomfortable and an outcast with it.
If you can share different ones, like Spanish or French and enjoy sharing, so much the better.
Agree Rose, especially the first sentence.
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Not totally true, Donald Trump seems to be extolling his virtues.
I don't think it's his virtues he's extolling; rather his style and what he sees as Putin's toughness.
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Nope - there were lies after lies from the Brexit side - most notably the notion that we can be full members of the single market and also restrict freedom of movement. Plus all the lies about the net contributions to the EU, plus any number of mis-truths on the EU itself, often involving blaming the EU for issues that were squarely in the power of the Westminster Government. Plus add in a sprinkle of Turkey joining within a year and the whole campaign was effectively lie after lie.
Nope they used data from highly respected independent economic organisations. And indeed their predictions have not been proven wrong, and indeed much of what they suggested has in fact happened.
I will agree with you there, but that was largely political. Effectively Cameron couldn't say he would go as it would then become a referendum on him and his government, rather than on the EU. But anyone with any intelligence recognised that his position would be completely untenable if he lost the referendum. He was always going to go if he lost.
Just briefly: what economic predictions have so far been proved correct?
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Really - so you know exactly what is going to be in the Chancellor's Autumn statement do you - astonishing. There are, of course, strong indications that he is going to have to pump significant additional money into the economy to head off a brexit-vote derived slowing of economic growth. And within weeks of the vote (and pretty well at the first opportunity) the Bank of England halved its base interest rate and brought in a raft of other measures aimed at stimulating the economy to prevent or reduce a brexit-vote driven slump.
Haven't you been paying attention BA.
u
The Autumn Statement is a regular occurence, and is NOT anything to do with an emergency budget. Did you not understand that? According to this week's ONS report the economy is in good order: construction is up, unemployment down, manufacturing up, inflation under control, and consumer spending buoyant; the markets are stable, and the ONS prediction is favourable. You need to keep up, and get out of the Remain penchant for scare-mongering, it's becoming a habit.
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So if the country had a referendum on bringing back capital punishment and the hangers won - would I then have to just shut up and accept it, even though morally I think it is a totally unacceptable position?
If they brought back laws to bang up gay people - I have to accept that to?
Where do you draw the line at proscribing an individuals freedom to object?
No Trent, you cannot bring those things into a study or a discussion of 'Patriotism.
Brexit is a democratic choice the people of this Country have voted out of the EU.
Sometimes we have to grin and bear it. All the fuss over brexit and we have people starving on the streets.
One thing this Country needs to do is get it's priorities right. If it cannot look after it's own then it cannot look after others coming into the Country.
What is best for this Country and our Queen is being out of the EU because we are a Country who use to take care of their own. We need to be independent to be free to give real aid and support to others and our own.
What you and all of us need to do is stop being mardy babies and accept that not everyone will like what the majority vote for all the time. But we have to grin and bear the peoples choice over the EU. Because there would be no point in a vote if the losers were to get their way and negate a vote.
It is the best outcome for the UK. Maybe not seen now but in years ahead we will.
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L.A.,
List the things irretrievably lost.
Hi B.A.
just got back.
Well, the pound is the obvious thing, 10% drop on Brexit and it's not recovered much since. That is like Nigel Farage hacking your bank account and taking a tenth of your money then breaking into your house and taking a tenth of your goods - then causing damage to your house that will cost a tenth of it's value to fix!
I know that a low pound helps exports, which is the reason we are currently seeing a micro boom, but those of us who lived through the 60's and 70's know damned well that a low pound is no quick-fix for an economy with problems. The downside is that imports cost more and that will translate into inflation.
The other thing we have lost is investment. Most companies have put most long term investment on-hold until the outcome of Brexit becomes clear. Some will undoubtedly have made the decision to invest elsewhere.
There is an awful lot of excrement heading for those fan blades.
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L.A.,
List the things irretrievably lost
The Tata steelworks in South Wales and possibly the UK steel industry.
The Chinese-owned MG assembly plant at Longbridge, whose closure was announced yesterday.
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Dear One and Only Forum Conservative, ( are you? :P :P )
There is an awful lot of excrement heading for those fan blades.
And where should we point the finger ( cough ::) )
Gonnagle.
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The Tata steelworks in South Wales and possibly the UK steel industry.
The Chinese-owned MG assembly plant at Longbridge, whose closure was announced yesterday.
Neither is related to Brexit: the steel industry here has suffered hugely because of the import of huge amounts of cheap Chinese steel. Both the steel industry, and Longbridge, are at the mercy of Chinese influence, nothing at all to do with Brexit. So, your examples are spurious.
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T
..milk and one sugar, since you are asking!
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Just briefly: what economic predictions have so far been proved correct?
Brexit is fine as long as we are still in Europe.
There is nothing being done either in preparation of Brexit or in resiling from it........so.......nothing changes.
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..milk and one sugar, since you are asking!
Pleasure. Just trying to be sociable!
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Hi Sass
You are conflating democracy and patriotism here:
No Trent, you cannot bring those things into a study or a discussion of 'Patriotism.
Brexit is a democratic choice the people of this Country have voted out of the EU.
Patriotism and democracy have about as much to do with each other as electric toasters and dog muck.
As to your comments about people starving on the streets - I trust you are aware that we have a cabinet that is so very representative of the UK population in that they are nearly all millionaires. I am sure that will make them very receptive to the worries of all the other......millionaires. The ability to solve the imbalance in our economy has always lain with us. That we choose not to exercise our democracy in a way that benefits the many is an indictment of the UK - not of the EU.
As to patriotism, others on here have made much of all pulling together. That is fine if you are pulling in the right direction. However if you are heading for some rapids in a canoe surely you would want somebody to say hold on a minute folks I think we should be paddling in the opposite direction.
I can only act according to what I believe best for my country - as I have pointed out before to blindly accept everything a government or country does is not patriotism it is instead unthinkingly moronic. Surely if patriotism is to mean anything at all it is that people act in what they consider the best interests of the country, even if they are going against a majority or even if they are wrong.
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Dear One and Only Forum Conservative, ( are you? :P :P )
And where should we point the finger ( cough ::) )
Gonnagle.
It was the 'Perfect Storm' scenario:
A leader who thought he had come-up with the perfect solution to end division in his party, a bunch of totally unscrupulous individuals who quite happily lied through their teeth about virtually everything, a media that was either the under control of said individuals or so determined to be seen as impartial that they gave equal weight to those lies as to obvious truths, and a Labour party that gave the general impression that they have more important things to sort out.
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Dear Trent,
A fine post Sir, a cabinet full of "haves" who don't have a clue about, or care about the "have not's".
The ability to solve the imbalance in our economy has always lain with us. That we choose not to exercise our democracy in a way that benefits the many is an indictment of the UK - not of the EU.
Your on fire old son, the country chose to vote in the Tories, that very British, very Christian party ( not ).
Ah well! should I worry, in a couple of years time I will have a nice Scottish passport, courtesy of that very nice man Mr Cameron :(
Gonnagle.
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Hi B.A.
just got back.
Well, the pound is the obvious thing, 10% drop on Brexit and it's not recovered much since. That is like Nigel Farage hacking your bank account and taking a tenth of your money then breaking into your house and taking a tenth of your goods - then causing damage to your house that will cost a tenth of it's value to fix!
I know that a low pound helps exports, which is the reason we are currently seeing a micro boom, but those of us who lived through the 60's and 70's know damned well that a low pound is no quick-fix for an economy with problems. The downside is that imports cost more and that will translate into inflation.
The other thing we have lost is investment. Most companies have put most long term investment on-hold until the outcome of Brexit becomes clear. Some will undoubtedly have made the decision to invest elsewhere.
There is an awful lot of excrement heading for those fan blades.
L.A.,HI, hope you are well.
Nothing you have outlined is anything but "what if" stuff. As before, we do not know what is going to happen, and until we get some news on the Government plans, we won't. The investment thing is something of a red herring. Companies are simply biding their time, which is fair enough There is no reason to suppose they are going to scrap any investment plans. The City is the hub of world finance, and will always be an attractive place for investment.
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Hi Sass
You are conflating democracy and patriotism here:
Patriotism and democracy have about as much to do with each other as electric toasters and dog muck.
I think we can all talk politics but the reality doesn't change.
I am not trying to combine the two at all.
But can a democracy be 'treason minded' and 'patriotic' at the same time?
A man can vote for what is best for themselves or vote for the good of their Country.
As to your comments about people starving on the streets - I trust you are aware that we have a cabinet that is so very representative of the UK population in that they are nearly all millionaires. I am sure that will make them very receptive to the worries of all the other......millionaires. The ability to solve the imbalance in our economy has always lain with us. That we choose not to exercise our democracy in a way that benefits the many is an indictment of the UK - not of the EU.
Do you think I do not understand the difference between need and greed. Between those who have and have not?
Do you not think that Maria Antoinette showed the perfect example of the divide between the have's and have not's?
Had our leaders had any real education or care about the working class, the disabled and the poor then they would have not driven them into the ground and turned our fellow citizens against them, with lies, would they?
I would have hoped my point that we have to look after our own before we allow others here to make it worse or look after.
We do not have the heart of our peoples good at the forefront in the EU and are best out of it, till such times our Government understands they have to make good for their own first.
As to patriotism, others on here have made much of all pulling together. That is fine if you are pulling in the right direction. However if you are heading for some rapids in a canoe surely you would want somebody to say hold on a minute folks I think we should be paddling in the opposite direction.
Would you knowingly put everything in a canoe,all that which our Country stands for and send it over the same rapids with no one able to control it all? You see the EU would mean surrendering control of our country to a body of people who quiet frankly could not run a P'up in a brewery. You would be putting everything we have including our monarchy and it's history in danger by going into the EU and surrendering our identity. We cannot trust our own Government to look after our peoples best interest.
For them it is all about ease to spend their money anywhere they want living off the fat whilst everyone at home suffers because they cannot afford the fat, let alone live off it.
We do what is best for our own and give our surplus to others. Not give everything to someone who will make it worse at home for everyone.
I can only act according to what I believe best for my country - as I have pointed out before to blindly accept everything a government or country does is not patriotism it is instead unthinkingly moronic. Surely if patriotism is to mean anything at all it is that people act in what they consider the best interests of the country, even if they are going against a majority or even if they are wrong.
If, at any time in the history of man there had been a Government anywhere capable of knowing and doing what is best for their Country then would we be here today discussing this? NO!
Like Countries and Governments we ponder what we have and make a decision. Hitler wanted the EU - it basically all about one ruling all. But the only man who ever gave a freedom of choice and a better way that benefits man by power was Jesus Christ.
In his union we would have a world where divine and right choices made for the good of man.
Man today have the 'POWER BLINDNESS' what is best for them here and now and not further down the line.
Hitler had the same problem. He thought he could take by force the world and then turn it in to a one man power centred world. Look where it all ended and at what cost? The lives of millions and in failure.
Every man wants a say in his life and the way his Country is run. The EU would take that away.
We could start a debate and argue that Gods way imposed on all would bring peace and love.
But every man, in different religions see that differently. They see a different way of imposing that; and it hurts others a lot by the evil way some would make that happen.
We need the freedom to chose for our own and the EU won't give us that.
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Godwin's rule!
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Brexit is fine as long as we are still in Europe.
There is nothing being done either in preparation of Brexit or in resiling from it........so.......nothing changes.
Early days for any kind of judgement yet. We shall have a clearer picture when Article 50 is invoked.
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Neither is related to Brexit: the steel industry here has suffered hugely because of the import of huge amounts of cheap Chinese steel.
The EU tried to stop that, but the measures were vetoed by the British government. But hey ho at least it's us that has thrown our steel workers under the bus.
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In his op, Trent suggests that there is more than one type of patriotism, with which I agree.
I support England and Great Britain in sports events. I like the Last Night of the Proms as much as anyone. I guess I'm fairly patriotic in that sense.
Where I draw the line is at having to hire an inferior plumber at an inflated price just because they were born in Birmingham, not Belarus.
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Too right! I was browsing yesterday, looking specifically for Polish builders. At least they are reliable, punctual cheerful and don't give BS.
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Too right! I was browsing yesterday, looking specifically for Polish builders. At least they are reliable, punctual cheerful and don't give BS.
What! All of them? You must have had a house full of plumbers!
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Builders BA, not just plumbers.
I certainly had a house full of builders a few years back, still haven't recovered from the trauma but that's another story - and the reason why I will be looking to the Polish this time around.
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Builders BA, not just plumbers.
I certainly had a house full of builders a few years back, still haven't recovered from the trauma but that's another story - and the reason why I will be looking to the Polish this time around.
I'm sorry, but this idea about all Polish workers is a fallacy in my opinion. I mean, Brownie, of the thousands working here, how many have you experience of? And if they are so able, why aren't they sought after in their own country, and in others, so that they have to go elsewhere?
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I have no wish to derail this thread with a lot of details about what and who I know, BA. Wish I hadn't said anything now.
However, from what I've been told (& I haven't visited Poland), Polish builders are highly regarded in Poland; that figures, if they were no good in Poland they wouldn't be much good here.
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I have no wish to derail this thread with a lot of details about what and who I know, BA. Wish I hadn't said anything now.
However, from what I've been told (& I haven't visited Poland), Polish builders are highly regarded in Poland; that figures, if they were no good in Poland they wouldn't be much good here.
If they were so good and highly rated in Poland, they wouldn't need to be elsewhere!
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If they were so good and highly rated in Poland, they wouldn't need to be elsewhere!
It is a fact that there is a shortage of many skilled tradesmen in this country (The reasons would probably merit a new thread), so obviously the UK is a 'magnet' for people with these skills from overseas - and why not? Throughout our history people have moved to where there is employment.
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Exactly, and people go elsewhere from here for the right job opportunity, always have. No big deal surely.
Life is poorer in Poland (though things are looking up apparently), skilled people can earn more here and they are prepared to do house share while they live here, a bit like students only they are working. I think that is quite enterprising, I wish I had had the nerve and confidence to spread my wings a bit when I was younger. They are generally reliable workers, competent and cheerful, what's the problem?
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Neither is related to Brexit: the steel industry here has suffered hugely because of the import of huge amounts of cheap Chinese steel. Both the steel industry, and Longbridge, are at the mercy of Chinese influence, nothing at all to do with Brexit. So, your examples are spurious.
Well, this -well qualified and well connected - academic doesn't agree with you. Consider the implication of his last sentence.
Professor David Bailey of Aston Business School:
They've had a flawed business model in that it was importing virtually the entire car for Longbridge with some very limited assembly, about 40 to 50 workers. I think what has really scuppered them is the Brexit vote.
They had fundamental business problems in that they were not selling as many cars as they hoped and they had the big import costs of components.
Post Brexit though, the costs of import are much more expensive so costs are higher and there is uncertainty about the future on the trading relationships in Europe. What they had hoped to do was use the UK as a launch pad for selling into Europe. If - big if - we are no longer part of the single market what is the point of investing there?
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Dear Looking for a Plumber,
Tories again, oh! and by the way, when I blame the Tories I lump in any Blairite into the mix.
All down to education guvnor, innit! right! right :P
What do we constantly hear on the news, the great race to university, all the young kids whooping for joy at getting the right qualifications to enter Uni, so they can study media ??? or theatre studies ???
Where is the great race for apprenticeships, Tories again, so out of touch with what is happening in the real world, we are always going to need good well qualified tradesmen and women, houses ( which we need more of ) don't build or repair themselves, simple innit!!
A true story, my brothers stepdaughter is training to be a plumber, she is in her second year of apprenticeship and making a very good living from practicing her newly acquired skills, yes she did start on a government scheme but these schemes are scarce, why? the Tories failure to invest in what the country really needs.
This constant drive to push our kids into university where they will rack up huge bills and not be able to pay them back because they are working in Mcdonalds must change, education, especially for our young must be free and we have to change our kids thinking about working towards apprenticeships.
Sunday morning rant over ::) :P
And no this has nothing to do with patriotism, sue me :)
Gonnagle.
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Dear Looking for a Plumber,
Tories again, oh! and by the way, when I blame the Tories I lump in any Blairite into the mix.
All down to education guvnor, innit! right! right :P
What do we constantly hear on the news, the great race to university, all the young kids whooping for joy at getting the right qualifications to enter Uni, so they can study media ??? or theatre studies ???
Where is the great race for apprenticeships, Tories again, so out of touch with what is happening in the real world, we are always going to need good well qualified tradesmen and women, houses ( which we need more of ) don't build or repair themselves, simple innit!!
A true story, my brothers stepdaughter is training to be a plumber, she is in her second year of apprenticeship and making a very good living from practicing her newly acquired skills, yes she did start on a government scheme but these schemes are scarce, why? the Tories failure to invest in what the country really needs.
This constant drive to push our kids into university where they will rack up huge bills and not be able to pay them back because they are working in Mcdonalds must change, education, especially for our young must be free and we have to change our kids thinking about working towards apprenticeships.
Sunday morning rant over ::) :P
And no this has nothing to do with patriotism, sue me :)
Gonnagle.
From what I recall Gonnagle, the idea that everyone must get a degree came very much from the Left, but you are quite right - stupid idea, there is a very real need for apprenticeships.
P.S. I don't think apprenticeships are so difficult to get these days, my grandson has just got one that suits his needs.
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We do what is best for our own and give our surplus to others. Not give everything to someone who will make it worse at home for everyone.
I find this puzzling from someone who is Christian. IS there a border at the channel that makes others less worthy of consideration?
I thought that you thought that we are all God's children. So is a beggar on our own streets worth more than a child in Aleppo?
As to giving everything to someone else - do you mean the EU here? Because if you do the reason we contributed to the EU wasn't just because we felt like giving money to them it was because we got favourable trading deals which benefitted us. Now you can argue that we need to take another direction because of migration issues or sovereignty issues (although that as far as I am concerned is a complete red herring as we ceded sovereignty to big business long ago) but the issue of money going to the EU was miniscule not to mention being over-exaggerated (that is a 'lie' in plainspeak) in the campaign.
If you are talking about giving to others (not the EU) who do you mean because you are not clear at this point in your post.
But to bring it back to my original point why does my arguing against the Leave vote make me unpatriotic if I believe, and I do, that it is a bad thing for the UK and its population?
BY your argument I should shut up and get behind the leaving of the EU - you do see that is a total stifling of my freedom.
I mean lets have all Christians shut up about their religion on the grounds that they are in a minority in this country. They certainly shouldn't be allowed free places in the HoL.
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We do what is best for our own and give our surplus to others. Not give everything to someone who will make it worse at home for everyone.
I find this puzzling from someone who is Christian. IS there a border at the channel that makes others less worthy of consideration?
I thought that you thought that we are all God's children. So is a beggar on our own streets worth more than a child in Aleppo?
As to giving everything to someone else - do you mean the EU here? Because if you do the reason we contributed to the EU wasn't just because we felt like giving money to them it was because we got favourable trading deals which benefitted us. Now you can argue that we need to take another direction because of migration issues or sovereignty issues (although that as far as I am concerned is a complete red herring as we ceded sovereignty to big business long ago) but the issue of money going to the EU was miniscule not to mention being over-exaggerated (that is a 'lie' in plainspeak) in the campaign.
If you are talking about giving to others (not the EU) who do you mean because you are not clear at this point in your post.
But to bring it back to my original point why does my arguing against the Leave vote make me unpatriotic if I believe, and I do, that it is a bad thing for the UK and its population?
BY your argument I should shut up and get behind the leaving of the EU - you do see that is a total stifling of my freedom.
I mean lets have all Christians shut up about their religion on the grounds that they are in a minority in this country. They certainly shouldn't be allowed free places in the HoL.
That's a good post Trent.
Regarding doing our best for our own, it's perfectly natural to take care of our families and those closest to us first - to quote the Bible,"Even the heathen do that", so we get no Brownie points (no pun intended) for doing what we should do which comes naturally.
However, this bit is puzzling: Not give everything to someone who will make it worse at home for everyone. Who is the "someone" who makes life worse? There is the odd occurrence of a dangerous criminal who has slipped through the net and ended up in the UK from abroad but it's very rare.
Christians are supposed to welcome strangers.
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It is a fact that there is a shortage of many skilled tradesmen in this country (The reasons would probably merit a new thread), so obviously the UK is a 'magnet' for people with these skills from overseas - and why not? Throughout our history people have moved to where there is employment.
There is a shortage due to people coming from other countries and getting a free education.
So they go back to their country with a skill whilst our children did not get a place and have no education or skill for the job.
Then they started to charge for it, which again left our own peoples children at a disadvantage.
We are short because there were no places and we are short because we educate others for money before our home.
We need to wake up because this country will lose out on so much if it does not take of it's own first and not his own purse.
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Well, this -well qualified and well connected - academic doesn't agree with you. Consider the implication of his last sentence.
Professor David Bailey of Aston Business School:
Does this mean anything in the great scheme of things?
British steel industry incapable of producing the products this country requires?
What do the men who were steel workers say?
Couldn't we produce our own steel cost effectively now we know longer pay billions into the EU?
Why can't we use that money to make us the thriving industrial country we once were?
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There is a shortage due to people coming from other countries and getting a free education.
So they go back to their country with a skill whilst our children did not get a place and have no education or skill for the job.
Then they started to charge for it, which again left our own peoples children at a disadvantage.
We are short because there were no places and we are short because we educate others for money before our home.
We need to wake up because this country will lose out on so much if it does not take of it's own first and not his own purse.
Hi Sass,
it's true that immigration has put pressure on our schools but virtually all the parents are working and paying taxes so they are not abusing the system and any difficulties are due to failures by our own government and councils.
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Dear Looking for a Plumber,
Tories again, oh! and by the way, when I blame the Tories I lump in any Blairite into the mix.
All down to education guvnor, innit! right! right :P
What do we constantly hear on the news, the great race to university, all the young kids whooping for joy at getting the right qualifications to enter Uni, so they can study media ??? or theatre studies ???
Where is the great race for apprenticeships, Tories again, so out of touch with what is happening in the real world, we are always going to need good well qualified tradesmen and women, houses ( which we need more of ) don't build or repair themselves, simple innit!!
A true story, my brothers stepdaughter is training to be a plumber, she is in her second year of apprenticeship and making a very good living from practicing her newly acquired skills, yes she did start on a government scheme but these schemes are scarce, why? the Tories failure to invest in what the country really needs.
This constant drive to push our kids into university where they will rack up huge bills and not be able to pay them back because they are working in Mcdonalds must change, education, especially for our young must be free and we have to change our kids thinking about working towards apprenticeships.
Sunday morning rant over ::) :P
And no this has nothing to do with patriotism, sue me :)
Gonnagle.
True patriotism would come in by not charging our own children for the privilege of education but charging all from abroad.
Anyone without a British passport they and their children must pay for the education. No matter if they have been here 30 or 40 years.
The fact is that most courses require minimum entry levels of education already achieved.
The subjects are often unnecessary for the course they require. You can be a computer whizz kid useless as English, Good at Maths... but all the skills you have and all the other education won't allow you to become what you are good at if you haven't the English.
We lack skills because the entry field for them is ridiculous. They should be based on aptitude and ability the capability of each person to do the work. My brother had 10 O'levels grade A+ and B when he left school the job he wanted he went for an interview for the apprenticeship. The last of the fully indentured where parents had to sign. He didn't initially get selected.
He telephoned in the odd chance someone had dropped out and they did, which gave him the break he needed.
When asked why he initially did not get in they said it was to do with the way he had been asked to twist some wire into a figure. At the end of the time he came top and in years he went on to earn better money self-employed.
It was my mother who encouraged to contact them when he did not get accepted initially. I do not trust those who are teaching and judge the ability of others. When he was at school, (which he never had a day off) he was told by his physics teacher he would not to be disheartened that he would not pass the exam but he was still being put in for it because he had worked hard and never missed a class.
He needed his physics for his choice of career and when he came home he was really down about it.
My mother ask if his teacher was psychic or had a crystal ball? Then she questioned him about the subject and how he had felt when doing lessons or homework. He had no difficulties found everything easy to understand and was not worried.
Mum told him to forget the teaches advice and work hard and study. He came top of the class in the exam he had the highest mark in the school and an apology from the teacher. It was only weeks before the exam and yet the teacher got it so wrong.
The opportunities are not there and the educators haven't a clue when it comes to ability of those they teach.
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I find this puzzling from someone who is Christian. IS there a border at the channel that makes others less worthy of consideration?
Well, let's ponder what was actually written then it will show there is nothing honestly puzzling at all in the rightful context it was written in.
Trentvoyager you wrote:
As to patriotism, others on here have made much of all pulling together. That is fine if you are pulling in the right direction. However if you are heading for some rapids in a canoe surely you would want somebody to say hold on a minute folks I think we should be paddling in the opposite direction.
MY REPLY.
Would you knowingly put everything in a canoe,all that which our Country stands for and send it over the same rapids with no one able to control it all? You see the EU would mean surrendering control of our country to a body of people who quiet frankly could not run a P'up in a brewery. You would be putting everything we have including our monarchy and it's history in danger by going into the EU and surrendering our identity. We cannot trust our own Government to look after our peoples best interest.
For them it is all about ease to spend their money anywhere they want living off the fat whilst everyone at home suffers because they cannot afford the fat, let alone live off it.
We do what is best for our own and give our surplus to others. Not give everything to someone who will make it worse at home for everyone.
Whilst you deliberate take it out of context the truth is there in the original post for all to see. It bears no resemblance to what you try to turn it into.
It is about Our Country being ruled by us as opposed to being ruled by another power where we have to submit everything we are to them.
I thought that you thought that we are all God's children. So is a beggar on our own streets worth more than a child in Aleppo?
Is Aleppo or any other country to do with the us remaining in the EU and our own rule?
Not sure why you used such a red herring.
As to giving everything to someone else - do you mean the EU here? Because if you do the reason we contributed to the EU wasn't just because we felt like giving money to them it was because we got favourable trading deals which benefitted us. Now you can argue that we need to take another direction because of migration issues or sovereignty issues (although that as far as I am concerned is a complete red herring as we ceded sovereignty to big business long ago) but the issue of money going to the EU was miniscule not to mention being over-exaggerated (that is a 'lie' in plainspeak) in the campaign.
You have to address the point raised not bring up things which are not reflective of our original discussion.
My points were clear... we would have to take care of our own and the point is that we voted to exit the common market.
Once that vote was cast then we have to follow that road and make sure it happens. There is no 'what if's' or maybe's. We are out and our future is to remain out and look after our own.
If you are talking about giving to others (not the EU) who do you mean because you are not clear at this point in your post.
I guess nothing was clear to you. The original post says it all, it is probably our ability as British people to think for ourselves and not be lead by the nose that has made it possible to leave the EU. It is done get over it and learn that you might be brainwashed but someone of us are independent thinkers who know right from wrong. The EU would have been very wrong for this nation on so many levels.
But to bring it back to my original point why does my arguing against the Leave vote make me unpatriotic if I believe, and I do, that it is a bad thing for the UK and its population?
It is about being humble enough to stop stamping your feet because it wasn't what you wanted and being man enough to man up to making the exit and future as good as possible for our nation. It is time to stop professing what you could not have know about the future in Europe and admit, that we can make it on our own no matter. Because being patriotic is about believing in ourselves as well as our Country. The world would still exist without the EU but what makes a country exist is it's people and their abilities. You think the EU is going to fall out with GB or place heavy penalties on us. Let me tell you something. If the EU try that then they will be cutting their nose off to spite their face. Imagine what they do to us coming back a thousand fold to them. It isn't going to happen. Our economy will rise and fall according to the ability to buy and sell. The people who once bought cannot afford to because of our Governments actions against the poorer in our society. They could reap what they sow.
But I believe in time you will see the best thing for our Country was to be out of it.
BY your argument I should shut up and get behind the leaving of the EU - you do see that is a total stifling of my freedom.
Not as stifling as it would be to tell all those who voted for the exit that they are to be denied their democratic right and not have what is rightfully theirs by a just system because someone like yourself feels stifled by losing. What a lame and poor excuse to use the word freedom. You executed that freedom in your right to vote. When you used that freedom you know that the highest vote count would be the successful one. In a vote there has to be losers who have to give the freedom of the winners to have what they voted for.
I think it isn't stifling anything. I believe you are just a sore loser who believes if they stamp their feet long enough and shout someone might give you what you want. But it isn't going to happen. Because that would be unfair and stealing the rights of those who voted honestly to have the outcome the majority wants.
I mean lets have all Christians shut up about their religion on the grounds that they are in a minority in this country. They certainly shouldn't be allowed free places in the HoL.
Did we vote for this? You could apply that frame of thought to anything... steel workers, plumbers, bricklayers.tractor drivers, police officers all about their work. Truth is that voting for the EU has nothing to do with a persons moral rights to freedom of belief and speech. Since it requires no voting for a person to be believe or do the job they do. What would be wrong and is wrong is the implications of what you are implying... The right to take away the freedom of every person to choose their job or their religious belief. And that shows up your belief in the right to take away the freedom of the persons democratic vote
NOT TO forget the injustice, you just don't want them to have their rights. Those who voted for the exit have the right to what they voted for. You do NOT have the right to remove it. Nor do you have the right to reflect your own prejudices onto others.
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Hi Sass,
it's true that immigration has put pressure on our schools but virtually all the parents are working and paying taxes so they are not abusing the system and any difficulties are due to failures by our own government and councils.
Hi LA,
Till the rules on benefits were changed all parents were not working or paying taxes. People were coming to this country claiming benefits and educating their children for free for many years. Others sent their elder children to be educated at higher levels like college and university.
At one time married men with more than one wife and children abroad could claim family allowance and benefits to send home to them. It has left a big dint financially in our system, so big that it can hardly provide for our own and they are now reaping the benefits of financial difficulty because our Government did not do the right thing when they could.
They didn't just close the stable door after the horse had bolted they locked permanently all stable doors/channels of help for our own people too.
There is no doubt that in turning their fellow men against their poorer fellow men they have shot themselves in the foot over the EU. It comes about when the Government stop listening to the people and the real needs and think they can do what they want. God always gets the last word. They oppressed the poor and lied about them. The Government have no chance of success till they address the issues of the poverty and oppression they have caused.
Do you know where the beds come from that local councils give to the people on benefits?
The local tips... they take the OLD beds thrown away (obviously past their best by date) they steam clean them even beds people died on and give them to those who have no money to pay for a new one.
The local tips have sheds for reclaimed furniture. If a person needs food they are sent to a food bank. They are not asked about special dietry needs and can be given tin stuff or packet stuff which goes out of date the same day.
A long time ago I did welfare rights and I am telling you this Countrys Government needs charging with bodily harm against the poor.
This Country won't succeed till it takes care of it's own poor, disabled,elderly and mentally ill people. :(
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Exactly, and people go elsewhere from here for the right job opportunity, always have. No big deal surely.
Life is poorer in Poland (though things are looking up apparently), skilled people can earn more here and they are prepared to do house share while they live here, a bit like students only they are working. I think that is quite enterprising, I wish I had had the nerve and confidence to spread my wings a bit when I was younger. They are generally reliable workers, competent and cheerful, what's the problem?
They aren't all competent and reliable, Brownie. Poles represent the highest number of foreign prisoners in UK jails: 10% of all oversees prisoners are Polish, and cost the tax-payer tens of thousands of £'s a year. Poland isn't keen to have them back! Still, what does it matter, as long as they're cheerful!
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And that shows up your belief in the right to take away the freedom of the persons democratic vote
If you could point to where I have ever suggested such a thing I would be ever so grateful.
Still not answered my central question. How am I being unpatriotic?