Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => Politics & Current Affairs => Topic started by: Nearly Sane on October 06, 2016, 12:48:06 PM
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According to this Owen Smith thought the Tory conference was about the centre ground. Mmm
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/owen-smith-centre-ground-jeremy-corbyn-speech-labour-leadership-contest-a7347501.html
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According to this Owen Smith thought the Tory conference was about the centre ground. Mmm
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/owen-smith-centre-ground-jeremy-corbyn-speech-labour-leadership-contest-a7347501.html
While Corbyn is still busy occupying the ground vacated by Stalin :)
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While Corbyn is still busy occupying the ground vacated by Stalin :)
Talking bollocks. I don't like Corbyn but this kind of vapid misrepresentation is stupid.
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Talking bollocks. I don't like Corbyn but this kind of vapid misrepresentation is stupid.
You might be right, Corbyn himself is too bloody useless to organise anything. It's his Minions that do all the dirty work.
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You might be right, Corbyn himself is too bloody useless to organise anything. It's his Minions that do all the dirty work.
and are they killing millions?
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and are they killing millions?
Non Corbynister Labour MP's have received death threats . . . so who knows?
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Non Corbynister Labour MP's have received death threats . . . so who knows?
and so has Corbyn. I suggest you need to stop digging.
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and so has Corbyn. I suggest you need to stop digging.
The non-Corbynistas have complained for a long time of systematic threats and harassment.
If we can learn anything from the murder of Jo Cox it's that these threats may be real. You can't assume that all of these pathetic specimens of humanity are harmless.
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The non-Corbynistas have complained for a long time of systematic threats and harassment.
If we can learn anything from the murder of Jo Cox it's that these threats may be real. You can't assume that all of these pathetic specimens of humanity are harmless.
And if you use the "no smoke without fire" approach that applies to what has gone on with Corbyn. Comparing any of this to a leader who murdered millions is laughable.
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And if you use the "no smoke without fire" approach that applies to what has gone on with Corbyn. Comparing any of this to a leader who murdered millions is laughable.
Yes, that is the general idea of caricature.
Corbyn himself (as I have pointed out) is no Stalin, however the Corbynistas contain amongst their ranks some pretty far left types, many of whom are quite prepared to use intimidation to further their ends.
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There will not be another labour government for decades. Corbyn will lose the next election by a lot and still hang on in there, blaming somebody else.
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According to this Owen Smith thought the Tory conference was about the centre ground. Mmm
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/owen-smith-centre-ground-jeremy-corbyn-speech-labour-leadership-contest-a7347501.html
Well, I thought it was. It seemed to me to move on to Labour's traditional patch and the UKIP's rhetoric they have for the northern Labour heartlands....?
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Well, I thought it was. It seemed to me to move on to Labour's traditional patch and the UKIP's rhetoric they have for the northern Labour heartlands....?
Yep, listing foreign people is the new middle ground, folks.
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Yep, listing foreign people is the new middle ground, folks.
What's wrong with that? Companies should first look to the indigenous people for their employment needs. Not undercut jobs to foreigners.
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What's wrong with that? Companies should first look to the indigenous people for their employment needs. Not undercut jobs to foreigners.
Why? A company should look for the best person for the job, while adhering to the laws on immigration.
And if a company has followed the appropriate recruitment process and has abided with the laws on immigration why should they be required to provide list of where the people they have employed were born. This notion is appalling, more so when it is suggested as a 'name and shame' approach. I am massively proud of the hugely international profile of the academics in my university department, and universally across the world this is seen as a good thing and a sign of an excellent university. What is there to be 'shamed' about.
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Why? A company should look for the best person for the job, while adhering to the laws on immigration.
And if a company has followed the appropriate recruitment process and has abided with the laws on immigration why should they be required to provide list of where the people they have employed were born. This notion is appalling, more so when it is suggested as a 'name and shame' approach. I am massively proud of the hugely international profile of the academics in my university department, and universally across the world this is seen as a good thing and a sign of an excellent university. What is there to be 'shamed' about.
Where have you been? Are you not aware that companies are employing illegally cheap, almost slave labour?
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Where have you been? Are you not aware that companies are employing illegally cheap, almost slave labour?
Some are, but many aren't, Jack. You could even make the same accusation of some local authorities and public bodies.
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Dear Owen,
Go away, go very far away >:(
Mr Smith also said he was “sticking to the position” that he would not rejoin Mr Corbyn’s shadow Cabinet. “Given what I’ve said about where we’ve gone with Jeremy and how we are not making the inroads in with the Tories and into the public popularity that we need in order to form a Labour government and have a prospect for a progressive government in this country then I can’t serve alongside him.
He added: “I think it’s now time to unite and present a real alternative to the Tories.”
Unite but not serve alongside him.
What am I thinking, yer a politician, you don't have to make sense >:(
Gonnagle.
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What's wrong with that? Companies should first look to the indigenous people for their employment needs. Not undercut jobs to foreigners.
If you want to compete in the global market place, you need to be able to hire the best people in the World. If you don't, your competitors will and they'll put you out of business.
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Where have you been? Are you not aware that companies are employing illegally cheap, almost slave labour?
No they are not.
The claim that some companies are employing illegally cheap labour maybe true, but it is not true of companies in general.
And those companies that are employing "illegally cheap" labour are already breaking the law. We don't need a new law to stop them.
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Where have you been? Are you not aware that companies are employing illegally cheap, almost slave labour?
But that's illegal - so completely irrelevant to the issue of companies operating perfectly legally who apparently need to be 'named and shamed' if they attract the very best talent globally, when competing with their competitors who, of course, do exactly the same.
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Naming foreigners seems insane to me. Brexit has already created an increase in hate crimes; this would encourage every racist thug to target certain firms and workers.
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Naming foreigners seems insane to me. Brexit has already created an increase in hate crimes; this would encourage every racist thug to target certain firms and workers.
I agree.
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It looks as if the Tories are withdrawing this idea (listing foreigners), as it was faced with vitriolic criticism, esp. from business. There is obviously a big struggle going on between hard Brexit people, and those who want some kind of contact with the single market. Never mind, we'll be poorer but whiter!
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I see Mhaira Black has compared the Tories to Nazi Germany and ended her little piece with.......
So let me finish with a poem by Martin Niemoller:
First they came for the Jews.
But I did not speak out because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists.
But I did not speak out because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists.
But I did not speak out because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Catholics
But I did not speak up because I was a Protestant
Then they came for me.
And by that time there was no one left to speak out for me.
http://tinyurl.com/jg9qvmw
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Steve Hilton, former Tory advisor, suggested tattooing foreigners' wrists with their number. Irony, of course. It's dead in the water. Just another U-turn, folks.
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I see Mhaira Black has compared the Tories to Nazi Germany and ended her little piece with.......
So let me finish with a poem by Martin Niemoller:
http://tinyurl.com/jg9qvmw
And the first thing that came into my head when I heard Rudd's speech was wouldn't it be easier if they made the foreigners wear badges. The Tories are not fascist just irresponsibly unpleasant to use rhetoric to make people feel branded and afraid. Let's remember it was not just Rudd, bit Fix and Hunt and May herself who used this sort of rhetoric.
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I suppose they were flying a kite, to see how much racism people would accept. I guess some people would accept foreigners being identifiable, but business itself seemed horrified by the suggestion. First, that they would have to become minor immigration officials, and second, that firms with a lot of foreigners could become targets for right-wing thugs. Third, of course, some industries are global and have a global staff, who move around a lot, and it's insane to start filtering out foreigners.
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So you don't disagree with her then?
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Disagree with her about what?
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Tories = Nazis in 1930's Germany and her use of that particular poem
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Tories = Nazis in 1930's Germany and her use of that particular poem
Was there a bit of 'The Tories are not fascists' in my post that you missed?
Further I suggest you reread the column you posted as she doesn't say equals but that the rhetoric is comparable, if not the intention.
As to the use of the poem, in challenging this sort of irresponsible approach, the happiness to make people afraid, absolutely I agree with her
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Many people have loosely compared this to the Nazis, see above, Steve Hilton (who is a Tory) saying that we should tattoo foreigners' wrists with their number. I don't think this involves a serious comparison with the Nazis. Hyperbole.
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But the comparsion of Corbyn to Stalin isn't.
After all, the Tories aren't killing millions.
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Politicians, fuck them all.
First of all the Scot nats have only one thing on their agenda and will use any method to achieve it, no matter how shameful it is.
Second the labour party who, with their unfettetered immigration without infrastructure investment created a perfect storm. Wages stagnated, house prices and rents rocketed, public services crumbled. Education, education, education went with barely a fizz apart from setting the seeds to turn it into a real business, a money making machine. What was started under Thatcher, Blair at al finished off.
(Young) people have been shit on by everyone. No housing, no jobs, no investment, no training, no apprentiships, poor wages.
Policy seems to be, let us import people from abroad. Is it a good idea to let a poor country like the Phillipines train nurses for them to be poached by a country which is, as we are constantly told, is the worlds 5th biggest economy
How about recruiting here, investing in the people who live here. Ignoring all of the above got 17+ million to vote for leaving the EU and still they bicker like a bunch of 5 year olds, all of them selfish self serving with their own agenda, Scotnats worst of all by a short head.
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Really good rant, essentially irrelevant to the question we were discussing
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But the comparsion of Corbyn to Stalin isn't.
After all, the Tories aren't killing millions.
Corbyn is neither using Communist rhetoric nor approaching Stalin's efficiency. He's a medium leftish geography teacher who by dint of the sudden death of the head teacher has been given the headship because he always brought in good biscuits and sympathy.
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And the Tories are not using Nazi rhetoric.
There is nobody in the middle ground. The Tories will always be to the right, Labour to the left (but under Corbyn it will be left as in where Venezuela sits} and as for the Scotnats, well they have the best of all worlds.
And while all this takes place Rome burns.
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And the Tories are not using Nazi rhetoric.
There is nobody in the middle ground. The Tories will always be to the right, Labour to the left (but under Corbyn it will be left as in where Venezuela sits} and as for the Scotnats, well they have the best of all worlds.
And while all this takes place Rome burns.
they are using rhetoric that sounds directly like Mein Kampf as the article pointed out, that and the League of Gentleman.
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Dear JP,
Thank you for your Mhairi Black link, which took me on to more Tory misery,
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/oct/04/150-army-cadet-units-open-state-schools-michael-fallon
Army Cadets! Prison jobs for our armed forces!
The Tory party at their best, Queen Victoria is still on the throne :(
Gonnagle.
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It's like 1981 again.
I only wish that I had the money to reform the SDP.
I am not joking.
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they are using rhetoric that sounds directly like Mein Kampf as the article pointed out, that and the League of Gentleman.
As the Labour lot use rhetoric from Mao's little red book or Trotskys Literature and Revolution.
Given the millions the Nazis murdered, worked to death in forced labour and imprisoned without trial do you think the use of Niemoller's quote appropriate?
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Dear JP,
Thank you for your Mhairi Black link, which took me on to more Tory misery,
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/oct/04/150-army-cadet-units-open-state-schools-michael-fallon
Army Cadets! Prison jobs for our armed forces!
The Tory party at their best, Queen Victoria is still on the throne :(
Gonnagle.
Tory misery from seeds set by Labour mismanagement who thought, as all Labour governments think, that they can just keep borrowing billions and spending it. Had they more time we could have been like Greece or Italy.
My son and daughter and their generation are suffering because of Labour, not the Tories.
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As the Labour lot use rhetoric from Mao's little red book or Trotskys Literature and Revolution.
Given the millions the Nazis murdered, worked to death in forced labour and imprisoned without trial do you think the use of Niemoller's quote appropriate?
err no they , don't. And I've already covered the direct equalisation as not being true, and not what is going on, three times on this thread. Why do you think lying about peoples' positions is acceptable?
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Tory misery from seeds set by Labour mismanagement who thought, as all Labour governments think, that they can just keep borrowing billions and spending it. Had they more time we could have been like Greece or Italy.
My son and daughter and their generation are suffering because of Labour, not the Tories.
Up until the 2008 global crash, the last Labour government had borrowing (adjusted for GDP) at levels lower than any government since the first world war. And because the cost of the debt was very low, the cost of servicing the debt was the lowest since Victoria was on the throne.
So the 5 year since 1900 with the lowest cost of servicing debt as a proportion of GDP are 2002-2007.
And don't forget that Labour ran budget surpluses in a number of years in the early noughties something that the previous Tory administration managed in just a single year of its 18 in power, I believe.
So don't believe the spin, why not rely on the facts.
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Dear JP,
Tory misery from seeds set by Labour mismanagement who thought, as all Labour governments think, that they can just keep borrowing billions and spending it. Had they more time we could have been like Greece or Italy.
No argument from me old son, Blairite government was a shambles, their open cheque book and allowing the wankers Bankers free rein was a recipe for disaster.
But it is this government we need to focus on, not past governments, this governments relentless drive for austerity has only hurt the poor, bullies who only hit out at the weak in our society, the Tories need to grow a backbone and go after the big companies who are stealing our taxes, legitimately or illegally, it is still morally wrong.
The Tories were handed a poison chalice, they did have a huge task ahead after the banking crisis, and they were right, we all needed to tighten our belts after that fiasco, but the poorest in our society should have been last on their list, and for me this one of the reasons we have this brexit nonsense, the Tories failed to invest in our poorest areas, and those areas needed to blame someone, along came Farage, the reason you are poor is that the immigrants are stealing your jobs and keeping wages low, the reason you are poor is because of those fat cats in Europe.
Now the Tories need to deal with their own mistakes and they are making a complete hash of it, the majority voted for brexit, the majority should decide on what brexit means, brexit should be a cross party consultation, every MP should be involved, it should be debated quietly and in a grown up fashion, in my opinion brexit was a terrible decision, can we go back on it, well I don't know, but if we go forward, then everyone needs to be involved, this is not a vote catching exercise, this is a get the country united exercise, the Tories must do the grown up thing and ask for help.
Small early morning rantette over ::) ::) on the bright side, we need more of this from the government,
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-37550769
A lot more of this, investing in our future.
Gonnagle.
PS : Ooops, and then along comes PRofDavey with the facts, although I do stand by my statement that the Blairite government was a shambles.
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Tory misery from seeds set by Labour mismanagement who thought, as all Labour governments think, that they can just keep borrowing billions and spending it. Had they more time we could have been like Greece or Italy.
Which is all a complete lie of course.
Borrowing is now at a record high under the Coalition and now Conservative government.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/9414274/UK-Government-borrowing-rises-in-graphs.html
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If you want to compete in the global market place, you need to be able to hire the best people in the World. If you don't, your competitors will and they'll put you out of business.
The main problem has been unskilled and low skilled labour which has depressed wages. As for the higher skilled end we can train our own and not be a parasite on poorer countries.
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The main problem has been unskilled and low skilled labour which has depressed wages.
The term "unskilled" is a slight misnomer. An unskilled labourer can be good or bad at their job. An unskilled labourer can be conscientious or not, hard working or not, punctual or not etc. If the unskilled labourers from Poland are twice as productive as unskilled labourers from England, the jobs will end up with the Polish workers one way or the other. Either we welcome them and they do the work here or we don't welcome them and the jobs move to Poland. Which of those two options do you think is best for the British economy?
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It's like 1981 again.
I only wish that I had the money to reform the SDP.
I am not joking.
I read that as 1984. I thought bloody hell what's going on?!?!?!?
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The term "unskilled" is a slight misnomer. An unskilled labourer can be good or bad at their job. An unskilled labourer can be conscientious or not, hard working or not, punctual or not etc. If the unskilled labourers from Poland are twice as productive as unskilled labourers from England, the jobs will end up with the Polish workers one way or the other. Either we welcome them and they do the work here or we don't welcome them and the jobs move to Poland. Which of those two options do you think is best for the British economy?
Who said anything about being good or bad at their job? I think some of your bolts have come loose.
Why are you talking down the British worker, and Britain?
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Who said anything about being good or bad at their job?
I did. You seemed to be under the laughable misapprehension that all unskilled workers are interchangeable.
I think some of your bolts have come loose.
So now we know that you don't have a reasoned answer to my post, since you have descended to insults.
Why are you talking down the British worker, and Britain?
Why should I accept substandard expensive service just because it is being delivered by a British person? Nobody else does.
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I did. You seemed to be under the laughable misapprehension that all unskilled workers are interchangeable.
So now we know that you don't have a reasoned answer to my post, since you have descended to insults.
Why should I accept substandard expensive service just because it is being delivered by a British person? Nobody else does.
Why can't we train our own people and stop sponging off others?
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#46. Gonners, You expect some part(ies) to unite our country? (Er.....there's a can of worms for a start....) There was no unity in the brexit vote -two parts of the 'uk' voted against it. There was no unity in accepting a Tory Government - one part voted decisivly against it and will find it hard to thole anything which comes from a government we manifestly rejected and a woman with no mandate to negotiate our future - OUR future - in Europe. Not only that, Labour is shattered and will be a busted flush for the next few years in Westminster - even more so up here, with the Corbyn/anti Corbyn factions simply piled onto the war between Dugdale and her deputy. The Lib Dems are a joke. I hate to admit it, but the only half decent opposition here is Davidson....and she's only there because some SLAB voters 'leant' their votes to the Tories at the last Holyrood election to be a bulwark against Sturgeon.
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Dear Jim,
Lets look at your post, lets say from a different perspective, lets look at shattered Labour party, well in Scotland, it is and you can't get away from it, it is a Labour heartland, oh yes! SNP are riding a wonderful wave at the moment and Sturgeon is a brilliant politician but at sometime she is going to have to make some important decisions, the SNP have already sided with the Tories, Heathrow, bang!! there goes the Green party alliance.
The Tory party, you forget that the borders voted decisively Tory, they are at the moment the second biggest party here in Scotland, Sturgeon is on a knife edge, every move she makes is watched by Labour and the Tories, please don't forget it is a Labour voting country, but Sturgeon allowed a large ship to dock at Grangemouth, although this country is against fracking.
Brexit, a mess, a complete Tory mess, no one else to blame, lay it firmly at the Tory doorstep, the Labour party just has to watch as they crumble, Corbyn needs to do nothing but sit on his hands and the Tories will implode.
Dugdale, the lady is no match for Corbyn, how can you defeat an honest man, Corbyn will sweep into this country, pick up the union vote, the socialist vote and lets not forget the Unionist flag waving protestant vote, it is there Jim!!
Me Jim! I like Sturgeon but as the Tories and Labour are pushing, she has to govern this country, make decisions, real decisions, no more Independence rubbish until we see real governance.
It is all to play for, I want SNP to run all over the Labour party, but the SNP has to show real governance, real decisions.
Gonnagle.
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Gonners; You know my views on independence. If anything the divergence between the Scottish and british electorate in the referendum has only sharpened and deepened my commitment to end a union which failed decades ago. But for once this isn't about SNP - not really. Yes, we did well at the last Holyrood poll - even though we lost our majority we gained a share in the total votes cast. I'd like to say that this was because we were the outstanding policy promoters - but I'm not that naive. We won because the other parties lost - Labour in particular. Coming from Kier Hardie country, that genuinely saddens me; there are no Labour administered councils, no Labour MPs, MSPs or MEPs in this area. Yes, Scotland needs a strong government - and knowing Nicola as I do, she's one strong wee lassie - folk thought Eck was the big cheese? Not really, Nicola was the mover behind his throne. But we need a strong opposition to keep the government on its' toes - and we don't have it. Dugdale is the worst in an increasingly pathetic strand of Labour leaders and her constant u-turns in opinion and policy not only destroys her credibility, it destabilises an already demoralised party. Corbyn can't appeal to Scotland without SLAB being on message - and they are so rudderless that they are nowhere near bring effective. The distrust of Lib-Demery after Carmichael genuinely saddens me. And the Tories will snap a few dissafected Blairites. but will take decades to erod the visceral distrust they have. So Scotland is far from united. I hope Nicola manages to hold SNP together - if only to provide at least one stable political forcre that can work effectively over the next few years.
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Why can't we train our own people and stop sponging off others?
These are unskilled workers we are talking about.
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Why can't we train our own people and stop sponging off others?
Maybe because they much prefer to 'sponge off others' than be trained and we have too many Do-Gooders' who insist that they have a perfect right to do so?
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Why can't we train our own people and stop sponging off others?
In many cases the ability to train people requires them to be trained by the very best, and therefore by definition buy talent from across the globe.
So academia and academic research is a great example - it is a global endeavour and therefore if you are trained only by the narrow talent pool represented by people born in the UK, then your training and experience will be very narrow. And your training and ability to rise to the very top will be limited.
The best people want to study at the best universities and the best universities are the ones that themselves attract the very best talent from the widest talent pool regardless of nationality and place of birth.
I am really proud that in the department where I work (and until recently lead) our academic faculty (about 55 people) is massively international, and includes 23 different nationalities. So that I can be 'named and shamed' there are 23 british born people of those 55.
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I think that the situation you describe, ProfD, is self evident. Universities are places of excellence and excellence is a commodity which respects no boundaries.
In the part of the world where I live, agriculture is a major industry and it employs a substantial number of people from east and central Europe. These people work hard and diligently ensuring food can be delivered to shops. I suspect that people such as these are the targets of Jack Knave's indignation.
One reason so many immigrant workers are employed is that many local people refuse to do this work - considering it to be beneath their capabilities, Or they want to work indoors in comfort and not outside in all weather conditions. If east and central Europeans do not continue to come to this country then food may become largely imported.
One thing I have been told about immigrant workers - but have no idea whether it is true or not - is that some are students doing courses in agriculture and their visit to this country is seen as a useful way of gaining work experience.
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These are unskilled workers we are talking about.
In that case we don't need foreigners!
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In that case we don't need foreigners!
The problem is that a large number of our 'unskilled' don't want to be workers!
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In many cases the ability to train people requires them to be trained by the very best, and therefore by definition buy talent from across the globe.
So academia and academic research is a great example - it is a global endeavour and therefore if you are trained only by the narrow talent pool represented by people born in the UK, then your training and experience will be very narrow. And your training and ability to rise to the very top will be limited.
The best people want to study at the best universities and the best universities are the ones that themselves attract the very best talent from the widest talent pool regardless of nationality and place of birth.
I am really proud that in the department where I work (and until recently lead) our academic faculty (about 55 people) is massively international, and includes 23 different nationalities. So that I can be 'named and shamed' there are 23 british born people of those 55.
You sound as if you have thrown in the towel and given up. No wonder Britain has been going down hill with people like you in it!
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You sound as if you have thrown in the towel and given up. No wonder Britain has been going down hill with people like you in it!
What on earth are you talking about.
In what way is it 'throwing the towel' to attract the very best talent to come and work in Britain, to contribute to a fantastically vibrant research environment, to help make our Universities the envy of the world, to ensure our students can study with the very best academics and to contribute massively to UK PLC.
I'd rather be in the Premier league than mouldering in the third division which is what you seem to want.
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The problem is that a large number of our 'unskilled' don't want to be workers!
The only vaguely uplifting thing I am taking from this at the moment is that, maybe, just maybe, May and her incompetents might just drag people from in front of Jeremy Kyle and drop them into fields in Lincolnshire and make them pick cabbages for the minimum wage.
you know Jack the kind of jobs that farmers, despite trying, cannot get British people to do.
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What on earth are you talking about.
In what way is it 'throwing the towel' to attract the very best talent to come and work in Britain, to contribute to a fantastically vibrant research environment, to help make our Universities the envy of the world, to ensure our students can study with the very best academics and to contribute massively to UK PLC.
I'd rather be in the Premier league than mouldering in the third division which is what you seem to want.
So I ask again, why can't we train our own instead of sponging off the world?
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The only vaguely uplifting thing I am taking from this at the moment is that, maybe, just maybe, May and her incompetents might just drag people from in front of Jeremy Kyle and drop them into fields in Lincolnshire and make them pick cabbages for the minimum wage.
you know Jack the kind of jobs that farmers, despite trying, cannot get British people to do.
The issue in the referendum was about control of immigration not stopping it wholesale.
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Dear Jackie boy,
So I ask again, why can't we train our own instead of sponging off the world?
I agree with you, but that would need a government who invest, invest in people.
The issue in the referendum was about control of immigration not stopping it wholesale.
Yes! It was this government who made it an issue, they bragged about reducing immigration when they knew they couldn't, but that goes back to your first question, the government forgot to invest in our people, so our people saw those bloody immigrants coming over and taking our houses and jobs, our people needed an outlet for their anger and our government was quite happy to allow that to happen, now it has come back to bite them on the bottom, they reap what they sow. >:(
Tory fiasco from start to finish.
Gonnagle.
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Without the immigrants Britain would be up the creek without a paddle. We need incomers to staff the NHS, for instance.
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The issue in the referendum was about control of immigration not stopping it wholesale.
Glad to hear you given up that it was the load of nonsense about sovereignty.
The fact still remains that one of the drivers for workers coming in from the EU was the lack of indigenous people who were prepared to get out and work in jobs that they didn't want to do. So we either pay more in the fields, factories etc. and therefore propel inflation even higher than it is already set to become due to the devaluation of the pound - or we stop producing things and import them therefore propelling inflation even highe. At that point it becomes a lose-lose scenario.
Or we could just be sensible and allow workers from the EU to come here and do the jobs that UKIP supporters are too lazy to get off their arses to do.
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Mass immigration was started by labour.
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We need incomers to staff the NHS, for instance.
Should we be 'needing' them, Floo? Why can't we train our own folkk to staff the NHS? Why do we have to take the best of other nations' medics and nurses - thus leaving their equivalent services bereft of staff?
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Should we be 'needing' them, Floo? Why can't we train our own folkk to staff the NHS? Why do we have to take the best of other nations' medics and nurses - thus leaving their equivalent services bereft of staff?
one reason would have been demographics. If you have an increasingly elderly population, there simply wouldn't be the number to staff the NHS, remembering that any staff trained here can and do move abroad as well. Further we don't just train 'our own folk' here but also many from elsewhere. If we were being a net exporter of training but importing staff from places where the demographic squezzes was not happening then it does not leave them 'bereft' rather is advantageous for both.
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Another wee pointer to why immigration should be devolved. Scotland continues to welcome all, from whatever ethnic minority. We're a Jock Tamsons' bairns. Most of us are baffled by Westminster xenophobia.
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Another wee pointer to why immigration should be devolved. Scotland continues to welcome all, from whatever ethnic minority. We're a Jock Tamsons' bairns. Most of us are baffled by Westminster xenophobia.
Yep - the immigration aspect of Brexshit is one I struggle with. It comes across as xenophobia, and if the argument is that the situation is different south of the border then clearly the approach we see from the pro-Brexshit folk isn't transferable to Scotland.
So we need a different approach here, probably best served by leaving the rUK to Brexshitting without us being dragged into the farce against our wishes.
I see on the BBC yet more fudging over runways around London and one wonders if such indesiveness coupled with the lemmingitis of Brexshit is a sign of nobody actually knowing what they are doing else someone would stop this madness and put the likes of Fox, Davies and others somewhere where they can play amongst themselves without dragging the rest of us into their fantasy.
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Exactly, Gordon. The immigration issue simply exposes the fact that the 'uk' is very far from united. The Westminster government has doen absolutely nothing whatsoever to appese feeling on the subject here, where the three (four if you count the greens) main parties are broadly agreed that we need more immigration, not less. As usual, only the Tories try to toe Westminster's line. This willful disregard of the situation here can only exacerbate the climate of distrust and opposition to a government we did not elect and whose ethos seems diametrically opposed with mainstream Scottish thinking.
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Dear Jackie boy,
I agree with you, but that would need a government who invest, invest in people.
Yes! It was this government who made it an issue, they bragged about reducing immigration when they knew they couldn't, but that goes back to your first question, the government forgot to invest in our people, so our people saw those bloody immigrants coming over and taking our houses and jobs, our people needed an outlet for their anger and our government was quite happy to allow that to happen, now it has come back to bite them on the bottom, they reap what they sow. >:(
Tory fiasco from start to finish.
Gonnagle.
Labour are just as guilty as the Tories. both are crap.
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Without the immigrants Britain would be up the creek without a paddle. We need incomers to staff the NHS, for instance.
We can train our own.
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We can train our own.
How we we do that with a decreasing population and increasing elderly population? Please explain what your approach would be to the demographic squeeze.
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Glad to hear you given up that it was the load of nonsense about sovereignty.
The fact still remains that one of the drivers for workers coming in from the EU was the lack of indigenous people who were prepared to get out and work in jobs that they didn't want to do. So we either pay more in the fields, factories etc. and therefore propel inflation even higher than it is already set to become due to the devaluation of the pound - or we stop producing things and import them therefore propelling inflation even highe. At that point it becomes a lose-lose scenario.
Or we could just be sensible and allow workers from the EU to come here and do the jobs that UKIP supporters are too lazy to get off their arses to do.
And what about jobs like nurses and doctors, why can't we train our people to do these professional careers and not import so many foreigners? And stop being a parasite on the world.
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And what about jobs like nurses and doctors, why can't we train our people to do these professional careers and not import so many foreigners? And stop being a parasite on the world.
We also export quite a lot of the above, and train quote a lot of people from abroad. Are you wanting to stop emigration as well?
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one reason would have been demographics. If you have an increasingly elderly population, there simply wouldn't be the number to staff the NHS, remembering that any staff trained here can and do move abroad as well. Further we don't just train 'our own folk' here but also many from elsewhere. If we were being a net exporter of training but importing staff from places where the demographic squezzes was not happening then it does not leave them 'bereft' rather is advantageous for both.
We have over a million unemployed, where is the shortage?
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We have over a million unemployed, where is the shortage?
many of whom are too old to he retrained into the health service, some of whom are not suitable.
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Exactly, Gordon. The immigration issue simply exposes the fact that the 'uk' is very far from united. The Westminster government has doen absolutely nothing whatsoever to appese feeling on the subject here, where the three (four if you count the greens) main parties are broadly agreed that we need more immigration, not less. As usual, only the Tories try to toe Westminster's line. This willful disregard of the situation here can only exacerbate the climate of distrust and opposition to a government we did not elect and whose ethos seems diametrically opposed with mainstream Scottish thinking.
We have plenty you can have!!!
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Just to note that currently we are at the highest % of people in work in terms of the records we hold.
http://tinyurl.com/h3nuqox
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How we we do that with a decreasing population and increasing elderly population? Please explain what your approach would be to the demographic squeeze.
What part of control didn't you lot understand? We allow in what we need. We have loads unemployed, why weren't these trained up? So what we need means after we have fully utilised our own resources.
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We also export quite a lot of the above, and train quote a lot of people from abroad. Are you wanting to stop emigration as well?
Illogical and straw man.
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What part of control didn't you lot understand? We allow in what we need. We have loads unemployed, why weren't these trained up? So what we need means after we have fully utilised our own resources.
Because some of those trained left and demand changes over time and people don't want to admit the issue that was clear with an aging population with a lower birth rate, none of which was ever mentioned by your genius Farage.
To at least some extent govts have tried to do this but when the increase in expenditure came to the front line NHS services you can't magic trained staff.
By the way what happened to your position that taking in what might be needed was parasitical as in a few posts ago?
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Illogical and straw man.
in what way is asking a question of you a strawman? What was the illogic in pointing out facts I.e. that people here emigrate and we also train people from abroad?
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many of whom are too old to he retrained into the health service, some of whom are not suitable.
I am also talking about what we should have done years ago.
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Just to note that currently we are at the highest % of people in work in terms of the records we hold.
http://tinyurl.com/h3nuqox
Most of those new jobs have been unskilled shit jobs. But that still leaves main who could have been trained up to do professional jobs.
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1) Because some of those trained left and demand changes over time and people don't want to admit the issue that was clear with an aging population with a lower birth rate, none of which was ever mentioned by your genius Farage.
2)To at least some extent govts have tried to do this but when the increase in expenditure came to the front line NHS services you can't magic trained staff.
3)By the way what happened to your position that taking in what might be needed was parasitical as in a few posts ago?
1) If you have a free for all immigration policy you can't plan for anything.
2) Not too sure what your point is here. Note: tonnes is being wasted on agency staff.
3) You're a clever chap can't you work it out? There is a difference between 'not bothering' and sponging off the rest and 'bothering' and making up the short fall.
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in what way is asking a question of you a strawman? What was the illogic in pointing out facts I.e. that people here emigrate and we also train people from abroad?
Asking stupid questions that a child could answer, and doesn't need asking because any intelligent person can see this is just throwing in shit to muddy the waters. I refuse to waste my time on such pointless points.
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Asking stupid questions that a child could answer, and doesn't need asking because any intelligent person can see this is just throwing in shit to muddy the waters. I refuse to waste my time on such pointless points.
Evasions noted
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In that case we don't need foreigners!
If you owned a fruit farm, would you rather have unskilled workers that turned up on time every day and put in a good day's work or the people that couldn't get jobs stocking shelves in Tesco?
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If you owned a fruit farm, would you rather have unskilled workers that turned up on time every day and put in a good day's work or the people that couldn't get jobs stocking shelves in Tesco?
No, those are the people that Jack thinks will be doctors and nurses.
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So I ask again, why can't we train our own instead of sponging off the world?
If you want your organisation to be World class, you need World class people. You can't expect to find enough of those people if you restrict your pool of candidates to the UK.
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Another wee pointer to why immigration should be devolved. Scotland continues to welcome all, from whatever ethnic minority. We're a Jock Tamsons' bairns. Most of us are baffled by Westminster xenophobia.
Westminster doesn't have xenophobia, it's a small majority of the British people (actually, it's probably not a majority if we accept that some voted for Brexit for reasons other than immigration).
Westminster loves immigrants. If they didn't, they could cut immigration by half tomorrow.
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Evasions noted
That's all you've got? You're the advocatus diabli here.
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That's all you've got? You're the advocatus diabli here.
Why thank you, kind sir.
And before anyone jumps up to say it is 'diaboli', my typing is often atrocious so leave the lovely JK alone, with his lovely compliments.
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If you owned a fruit farm, would you rather have unskilled workers that turned up on time every day and put in a good day's work or the people that couldn't get jobs stocking shelves in Tesco?
What I would prefer would be slaves, 'cause they are cheaper and would render me a bigger profit. But there are laws here about minimum wage which companies get round by employing foreign third world, east European people, all helped along by the elites in Brussels.
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No, those are the people that Jack thinks will be doctors and nurses.
Now your true colours are coming out, snobbery. You think they are too stupid do you? Don't you think that if they had had the same upbringing and opportunities as some of the rest of us they could have been doctors? Or do you see them as second class subjects and citizens or even a different troglodyte species...?
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If you want your organisation to be World class, you need World class people. You can't expect to find enough of those people if you restrict your pool of candidates to the UK.
I've explained this to you already. You utilise your own resources to the full first and then make up the difference or short fall from abroad.
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Now your true colours are coming out, snobbery. You think they are too stupid do you? Don't you think that if they had had the same upbringing and opportunities as some of the rest of us they could have been doctors? Or do you see them as second class subjects and citizens or even a different troglodyte species...?
Doesn't really matter, you think they can't either because of 'upbringing and opportunities' .
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I've explained this to you already. You utilise your own resources to the full first and then make up the difference or short fall from abroad.
Ah, a person who just sees people as resources to be used.
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Why thank you, kind sir.
And before anyone jumps up to say it is 'diaboli', my typing is often atrocious so leave the lovely JK alone, with his lovely compliments.
I was fighting with autocorrect. Quite obviously I lost. :-[
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Doesn't really matter, you think they can't either because of 'upbringing and opportunities' .
And how do you know what I think? My last post on this was in response to you making claims about my position on things, which really opened up a window into your own state of mind.
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And how do you know what I think? My last post on this was in response to you making claims about my position on things, which really opened up a window into your own state of mind.
Because it's clearly implied in your post. It's a strange mix of logic and English that you may be unfamiliar with.
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I was fighting with autocorrect. Quite obviously I lost. :-[
If there is a diabolus, it works auto correct.
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Ah, a person who just sees people as resources to be used.
As I said, or meant to have said, advocatus diaboli.
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Because it's clearly implied in your post. It's a strange mix of logic and English that you may be unfamiliar with.
Well, something is very strange, and it's not the English! ;D