Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => Politics & Current Affairs => Topic started by: Aruntraveller on October 13, 2016, 01:49:32 PM
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-37634338
I can understand the impulse to go for another roll of the dice on this issue - but please, not just yet.
I'm all referendummed out.
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Whilst it is understandable that Scotland would consider another referendum, in the light of the Brexit disaster I don't know that they could stand alone without the rest of the UK. If they did vote to leave, the UK would be in an even worse state than it is now, imo.
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Whilst it is understandable that Scotland would consider another referendum, in the light of the Brexit disaster I don't know that they could stand alone without the rest of the UK. If they did vote to leave, the UK would be in an even worse state than it is now, imo.
On the other hand they could be the intelligent ones deserting the sinking ship that is the UK. Cue some numpty saying I'm talking down the country. Yep I'm solely responsible for the exchange rate and Unilever and the Banking system.
No, if I were in Scotland and had voted no last time - I'd be looking very hard at my options this time around.
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-37634338
I can understand the impulse to go for another roll of the dice on this issue - but please, not just yet.
I'm all referendummed out.
Note this is a consulation bill and won't be voted on yet. There are many pushing for a referendum asap in order to try and ensure Scotland has any chance of staying in the EU. There are also many that want to wait till an assumed fall out from Brexit becomes more apparent. This is an attempt to harness both horses, though one that I think will become harder to maintain.
I, too, am refetendummed out but can see the pressure to keep the faithful happy.
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Note this is a consulation bill and won't be voted on yet. There are many pushing for a referendum asap in order to try and ensure Scotland has any chance of staying in the EU. There are also many that want to wait till an assumed fall out from Brexit becomes more apparent. This is an attempt to harness both horses, though one that I think will become harder to maintain.
I, too, am refetendummed out but can see the pressure to keep the faithful happy.
I think this is useful on the British stage since it is a message that folks wont idly be ruled out of a process as May, Curly, Mo and Boris would like.
Ironic isn't it that the Brexiteers who moaned about not being heard are now the folks telling others to shut up.
As they say in Great Brexit.....Gerroverit!!!!!!!!
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Am I right in thinking that Nicola Sturgeon claimed Scotland could prevent the whole of the UK leaving the EU?
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Am I right in thinking that Nicola Sturgeon claimed Scotland could prevent the whole of the UK leaving the EU?
No, she stated that if the possibility existed they would look at it. The Scottish govt then confirmed that it does not have a veto.
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No, she stated that if the possibility existed they would look at it. The Scottish govt then confirmed that it does not have a veto.
I hadn't seen that! I would have thought it was unlikely they would have had a veto.
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I hadn't seen that! I would have thought it was unlikely they would have had a veto.
The question was whether non ratification in the Scottish parliament would amount to a veto, based on devolution legislation, rather than a specific veto.
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There should perhaps be independence referenda in all four home countries.
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The big stushie comes when the Westminster government (which is not popular - or indeed elected - in Scotland) tries to interfere with the Scotland Act which set up parliament in its albeit limited form in 1999. That Act was Westminster based, and a Westminster based referendum was needed to ensure Scots approved it - which we did, overwhelmingly. Surely any interference with the Act, which enshrines ECHR and other EU laws in its make up, would require another Westminster led devolution referendum? Holyrood - and not only SNP - are adamantly against Westminster changing legislation without the Scots parliament's consent, and, as Labour, what's left of the Lib Dems, the Greens, as well as SNP are opposed to Westminster changing legislation without Holyrood's approval, get the popcorn ready........
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Whilst it is understandable that Scotland would consider another referendum, in the light of the Brexit disaster I don't know that they could stand alone without the rest of the UK. If they did vote to leave, the UK would be in an even worse state than it is now, imo.
Perhaps more importantly, for both Scotland and rUK, would they individually have enough clout to be able to negotiate decent trading deals with the EU, the USA, etc., etc.
After all, the EU referendum was a whole-UK event with a whole-UK impact on the UK, as it was back in June. Arguing that Westminster has no mandate in Scotland ignores both the whole-UK nature of the referendum and the whole-UK nature of the 2015 General Election.
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Perhaps more importantly, for both Scotland and rUK, would they individually have enough clout to be able to negotiate decent trading deals with the EU, the USA, etc., etc.
After all, the EU referendum was a whole-UK event with a whole-UK impact on the UK, as it was back in June. Arguing that Westminster has no mandate in Scotland ignores both the whole-UK nature of the referendum and the whole-UK nature of the 2015 General Election.
I'd have thought the EU referendum result in Scotland plus the fact that in Westminster terms the Tories have only one MP here strongly suggests that the political situation here is different. We need to await events but having watched part of the debate in Wesminster it seems to me that Brexit is a Tory-led disaster and that, as things stand, if indyref2 does happen then the result will be different next time.
Don't forget we were sold out by assurances that to be safe in the EU we needed to stay in the UK - I suspect that Brexit will become less appetising to even the zealots as time goes on, and unless someone finds a way to stop the madness we need to ditch the UK since the UK isn't working in our interests, or even the interests of people in rUK.
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I'd have thought the EU referendum result in Scotland plus the fact that in Westminster terms the Tories have only one MP here strongly suggests that the political situation here is different. We need to await events but having watched part of the debate in Wesminster it seems to me that Brexit is a Tory-led disaster and that, as things stand, if indyref2 does happen then the result will be different next time.
Don't forget we were sold out by assurances that to be safe in the EU we needed to stay in the UK - I suspect that Brexit will become less appetising to even the zealots as time goes on, and unless someone finds a way to stop the madness we need to ditch the UK since the UK isn't working in our interests, or even the interests of people in rUK.
I agree MP's and Scottish MEP's are doing the UK a service by reminding us all that Brexit is not consequence free.
With the Express apparently suggesting that dissent be met with imprisonment the nature of the Brexiteer becomes ever clearer. It's Francoist.
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I'd have thought the EU referendum result in Scotland plus the fact that in Westminster terms the Tories have only one MP here strongly suggests that the political situation here is different. We need to await events but having watched part of the debate in Wesminster it seems to me that Brexit is a Tory-led disaster and that, as things stand, if indyref2 does happen then the result will be different next time.
Don't forget we were sold out by assurances that to be safe in the EU we needed to stay in the UK - I suspect that Brexit will become less appetising to even the zealots as time goes on, and unless someone finds a way to stop the madness we need to ditch the UK since the UK isn't working in our interests, or even the interests of people in rUK.
Wot Gordon said!
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A great wee blog from the Wee Ginger Dug, on today's announcement. And, no, he isn't a member of SNP. https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2016/10/13/the-path-were-walking/
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Go for it, Scots. Just don't be stupid and hand it all away to the EU. They'll fuck you.
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I really cannot understand the Scottish position here.
They wanted to be independent, so pushed to leave the UK.
But now they want to give independence up and stay in the EU.
The obvious conclusion is that the only reason they wanted to leave to UK is because they hate the English. Which is the impression I got last time I went to Edinburgh.
And Nicola Sturgeon says Teresa May is xenophobic.!
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I really cannot understand the Scottish position here.
They wanted to be independent, so pushed to leave the UK.
But now they want to give independence up and stay in the EU.
The obvious conclusion is that the only reason they wanted to leave to UK is because they hate the English. Which is the impression I got last time I went to Edinburgh.
And Nicola Sturgeon says Teresa May is xenophobic.!
so according to you, the UK isn't currently independent?
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Hi, John. Your points aren't that obvious to me! SNP don't hate the English - there are thousands of born and brred Englishmen who are SNP members; even a few SNP branches south of the border (actually, I don't understand that either) Our Depute leader was born in England, and I'm almost certain he doesn't hate himself. Secondly, the independent in Europe thingy is no invention of Nicola - or big Eck, for that matter. It was party policy when I joined in 1983. There is no dichotomy in being fully independent within a political union. It works for France, Belgium, Luxemburg..... Were complete autonomy in all domestic, defence and foriegn affairs granted Scotland, SNP would have no purpose. These powers are not granted.
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I really cannot understand the Scottish position here.
They wanted to be independent, so pushed to leave the UK.
But now they want to give independence up and stay in the EU.
The obvious conclusion is that the only reason they wanted to leave to UK is because they hate the English. Which is the impression I got last time I went to Edinburgh.
And Nicola Sturgeon says Teresa May is xenophobic.!
Some of us want to leave the UK, and some of us did before Brexshit. The political climate in Scotland has changed in recent years as the EU referendum and last Westminster election results confirm: in 2014 we were told by the 'Better Together' mob that if we wanted to stay in the EU then we should stay in the UK and that if we left the UK we'd be leaving the EU as well, and I expect some Scots we persuaded on that basis - I'm sure the irony of events since then won't have escaped you.
It has nothing to do with being anti-English: but you guys seem likely to be stuck with the Tories for the forseeable future - although you never know - and if so then I think, given the different political climate here, we now need to go our own way.
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As someone who voted Yes and Remain, can I just say that in any consultation on another feckin referendum, I will be demanding that any change needs a higher electoral test than 50% of those voting on one day!
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As someone who voted Yes and Remain, can I just say that in any consultation on another feckin referendum, I will be demanding that any change needs a higher electoral test than 50% of those voting on one day!
I'd agree with that given the EU one - makes me laugh, or perhaps I should cry, when I hear the recent result portraying as a significant mandate. I suspect that if they re-ran the EU one tomorrow it wouldn't be certain that the result would be the same given the apparent reality since - I say apparent since nobody really seems to know the details, and especially so those who campaigned for it.
I do think though that events since 2014 regarding the EU does change the position here given that the EU status of Scotland featured so much then.
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Some of us want to leave the UK, and some of us did before Brexshit. The political climate in Scotland has changed in recent years as the EU referendum and last Westminster election results confirm: in 2014 we were told by the 'Better Together' mob that if we wanted to stay in the EU then we should stay in the UK and that if we left the UK we'd be leaving the EU as well, and I expect some Scots we persuaded on that basis - I'm sure the irony of events since then won't have escaped you.
Except that the latter would of course still be true, regardless of what any consequent EU referendum result might have been.
It has nothing to do with being anti-English: but you guys seem likely to be stuck with the Tories for the forseeable future - although you never know - and if so then I think, given the different political climate here, we now need to go our own way.
I'd be surprised if England were to be stuck with the Tories after 2020: though if Wales and Scotland are anything to go by, England might be in for a period of one party rule.
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Hope; One party rule? When SLAB dominated Scots politics, I did not see the phrase trotted out by Westminster lovers. The SNP is technically a minority government in Scotland - so hardly one party rule. However, it does enjoy a majority where the independence question is concerned, since the Scottish Greens are even more insistant on Indyref 2 than SNP, and, with their MSPs combined with SNP, the Indyref bill will have majority support in Holyrood, should it reach the debating chamber. As Gordon stated, the political and cultural climate here is diversifying further with every passing day from Westminster, and a gulf is opening which is not entirely of Holyrood's making.
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Here's a link which might prove interesting to some. It's about a former Scottish First Minister's take on Scottish/English divergance - and, no, it isn't Alec Salmond, but the second Labour First Minister, Alec McLeish. I know it's a couple of months old, but worth a read. http://www.publicfinance.co.uk/news/2016/08/uk-nations-are-growing-apart-says-former-scottish-first-minister
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The SNP is technically a minority government in Scotland - so hardly one party rule.
As is the Labour Government in Cardiff - its hardly ever been a decently majority government. ;)
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As someone who voted Yes and Remain, can I just say that in any consultation on another feckin referendum, I will be demanding that any change needs a higher electoral test than 50% of those voting on one day!
I think that change to the status quo should require more than 50% of the electorate, not 50% of those that voted.
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I think that change to the status quo should require more than 50% of the electorate, not 50% of those that voted.
as discussed before % of the electorate gives a vote for no change to dead people
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With apologies to Gonnagle because of the mention of a certain (new) football team, here's the latest comment from Paul Kavanagh, AKA the Wee Ginger Dug, on the political stramash. https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2016/10/14/the-past-belongs-to-the-union-the-future-belongs-to-independence/
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I think that change to the status quo should require more than 50% of the electorate, not 50% of those that voted.
Many organisations - and they are often democratic in their nature - require well over 50% of the vote for such a change. For instance, whilst one has to receive at least 50%+1 of the members attending the AGM to be elected as a deacon of our Baptist church, it requires 70%+1 to be elected as elder or pastor. The two charities I'm a board member of require a vote of 66% in favour for any change in the constitution/Mems & Arts.
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Good article by Gerry Hassan
http://www.gerryhassan.com/blog/high-wire-politics-the-snp-after-conference-and-the-next-independence-campaign/
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The Scottish Government has published the bill today. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-37708545
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We were assured that, following the 2016 Scotland Act, Holyrood would be amongst the most powerful devolved parliaments in the world. The Tory government said it, so it must be true, right? Er....... https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2016/10/17/the-most-powerful-devolved-parliament-in-the-world-so-thats-ok-then/
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as discussed before % of the electorate gives a vote for no change to dead people
But not many of them.
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The Tory government said it, so it must be true, right?
Did they? When?
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But not many of them.
so in principle dead people voting is OK with you?
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Did they? When?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-35716653 On the debate of the Scotland bill - the watered down detritus which was the fall out from Brown's infamous vow on the eve of Indyref. Cameron and May have restated it on many occasions since....in the delusion that the more often they say it, the truer it becomes.
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so in principle dead people voting is OK with you?
Several dead people almost certainly voted in the referendum anyway. Are we going to ban postal ballots?
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Dear John,
The obvious conclusion is that the only reason they wanted to leave to UK is because they hate the English. Which is the impression I got last time I went to Edinburgh.
You went to Edinburgh! Nevermind I hear that tackling mental health issues is on the increase :P Next time you visit Scotland stay clear of the shortbread tin mentality you find wide spread in Edinburgh ;)
Oh boy!! More talk about Independence :( Ah well! That is one way of defeating the disaster that is the Tory party.
Gonnagle.
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Dear John,
You went to Edinburgh! Nevermind I hear that tackling mental health issues is on the increase :P Next time you visit Scotland stay clear of the shortbread tin mentality you find wide spread in Edinburgh ;)
Oh boy!! More talk about Independence :( Ah well! That is one way of defeating the disaster that is the Tory party.
Gonnagle.
Edinburgh? Love it in all its tartan trews splendour.
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Dear Jim,
With apologies to Gonnagle because of the mention of a certain (new) football team, here's the latest comment from Paul Kavanagh, AKA the Wee Ginger Dug, on the political stramash.
I will accept new, as long as you accept that new team have a very long history ;)
Now on to the more meaty subject, which is Indyref2, Nicola Sturgeon, Theresa May and the wonderful world of brexit.
I have just been reading all about CETA, which is being dubbed the little brother of TTIP, I think this is part of what our Jack Knave has been chuntering on about, allowing multinational companies to become more powerful than a countries government, is this what our Nicola wants, is this what Scotland wants!!
Do we want to be part of an EU which is in favour of handing power to multinational companies, well done to little Wallonia ( where ever little Wallonia is ) for giving the EU the middle finger, maybe we should be joining our Brexiteer English cousins if this is the kind of thing the EU get up to :o
According to War on Want this CETA is a poison chalice.
http://waronwant.org/what-ceta
Gonnagle.
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Scotland voted to remain in the EU, Gonners. Whilst Indyref 2 is an option, it isn't the only one - allowing Scotland to remain in tghe single market and retain ECHR would stop any second referendum in its tracks. You know as well as I do that the NO campaign spouted the lie that the only way Scotland could remain an EU member was by remaining part of the disunited kingdom and voting NO in 2014 We did. Now we are being removed against our will, so much for Westminster. In 2014 the Tories spouted stuff about us being an equal partner in the union....well, if we cannot play our part as an equal partner and have a say in the brexit negotiations, the blame for the constitutional disaster which will follow will not be ours. We are not the ones who broke our promises.
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Dear Vlad,
Edinburgh? Love it in all its tartan trews splendour.
Thank you, my point exactly.
Wha's like us, damn few, there aw deid.
I think the SNP should adopt Mel Gibson and have him running around Scotland shouting, FFRRREEEEEEDDDDOOOOOMMMM, with a sprig of heather in his hair for effect >:(
Gonnagle.
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I think the SNP should adopt Mel Gibson and have him running around Scotland shouting, FFRRREEEEEEDDDDOOOOOMMMM, with a sprig of heather in his hair for effect >:(
I thought that was their present strategy.
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Dear Vlad, Thank you, my point exactly. Wha's like us, damn few, there aw deid. I think the SNP should adopt Mel Gibson and have him running around Scotland shouting, FFRRREEEEEEDDDDOOOOOMMMM, with a sprig of heather in his hair for effect >:( Gonnagle.
Er......you do know that Edinburgh has always been the hardest nut to crack as far as the SBP are concerned? Possibly sniffing shortbread has something to do with that. And I've never watched 'Braveheart' - nor have I any intention of doing so! Actually, if you're interested in the dichotomy of loyalties, Gonners, try reading the late Ludovic Kennedy's "In bed with an elephant". It's an entertaining read from Kennedy - an Anglo-Scot who was never a nationalist. It might explain the mindset of certain elements of the Morningsiders!
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Dear Jim,
Well the good folk of Edinbugger town have the best of both worlds, when they bark some one at Westminster sits up, they also have a lovely wee Parliament of their own, nice and cosy, a nice wee tram rail that runs all the way out to their lovely wee air port, when their art galleries need funding, nae problemo, here's a wad of cash from Holyrood or Westminster, so I can see how the SNP might find Edinburgh a tough nut to crack, they don't want to kill one of their golden gooses.
When Westminster or Holyrood start to address the problems of Glasgow, Kilmarnock, Greenock, Gourock, Ayr, hell! I have even heard that the Fifers have foodbanks, this will be where my vote goes, to the person or government that tackles the real issues.
Gonnagle.
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Dear Jim,
Well the good folk of Edinbugger town have the best of both worlds, when they bark some one at Westminster sits up, they also have a lovely wee Parliament of their own, nice and cosy, a nice wee tram rail that runs all the way out to their lovely wee air port, when their art galleries need funding, nae problemo, here's a wad of cash from Holyrood or Westminster, so I can see how the SNP might find Edinburgh a tough nut to crack, they don't want to kill one of their golden gooses.
When Westminster or Holyrood start to address the problems of Glasgow, Kilmarnock, Greenock, Gourock, Ayr, hell! I have even heard that the Fifers have foodbanks, this will be where my vote goes, to the person or government that tackles the real issues.
Gonnagle.
Well, speaking personally, Gonners, I can honestly say that social work - in reference to visually impaired and other disabled people - hasn't worked as well in over the thirty-five years I've been dealing with it.
We are consulted in major decisions, our views are taken into account, and we are involved in local partnership schemes with the two major hospitals in East Ayrshire. By 'involved', I mean that some of us are now trained counsellors and can advise people who approach us, without, of course, having any input to any medical matters.
All that since Labour was given the push after too many years in power. You can guess who gets my vote at a local level, then!
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Great wee repost to the Daily Express from the Wee Ginger Dug as to why Indyref-ers are not Anglophobes. https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2016/10/31/self-defeating-behaviours/
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This certainly chimes with what I have heard from friends on both sides of both referendums. Shocking figures for Labour though
http://blog.whatscotlandthinks.org/2016/11/yougov-mark-st-andrews-day/
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Scotland voted to remain in the EU, Gonners.
So did London, and the Vale of Glamorgan, Cardiff and Gwynedd. Unfortunately, the referendum was a UK referendum, meaning that those who took part in it would be bound by its outcome. OK, the government could have chosen to treat it as advisory, but it would still have been advisory for exit, and we would all have had to accept that advisory for what it was.
Whilst Indyref 2 is an option, it isn't the only one - allowing Scotland to remain in tghe single market and retain ECHR would stop any second referendum in its tracks.
Not sure that the UK government have the powwer to make that play, Jim. After all, it was agreed by all involved - long before the result was known - that the result would be deemed to be binding, so the exit is either for the whole of the UK or for none of it. Cherry-picking isn't permitted.
You know as well as I do that the NO campaign spouted the lie that the only way Scotland could remain an EU member was by remaining part of the disunited kingdom and voting NO in 2014 We did. ...
Except that was the common understanding of the time - remember that back then, the fledgling Leave campaign was doing a Trump and complaining that their voice was being ignored. If Nicola and co had been rather less vocal in their opposition to staying in the UK, I wonder whether the BrExit referendum result might have been different.
Now we are being removed against our will, ...
So, if the Brexit referendum result had been 'to stay' would you be arguing that you were being made to stay by a third-party?
so much for Westminster. In 2014 the Tories spouted stuff about us being an equal partner in the union....well, if we cannot play our part as an equal partner and have a say in the brexit negotiations, the blame for the constitutional disaster which will follow will not be ours. We are not the ones who broke our promises.
I'm not sure that anyone has broken any promises, Jim. By agreeing to take part in a UK-wide referendum, you promised to abide by its result - whether that was on a binding or advisory basis.
As things stand, I don't expect even the staunchest of Brexiteers to accept any agreement thatn comes to pass - either it will be too hard for them, or too soft.
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What Cardiff, or anywhere else, voted, is irrelevent. They are not, with respect, nations; Scotland is, and will not be treated as a county, a region or a parliamentary constituency. Apparently the Lord Advocate (senior Scottish Law officer) is seriously contemplating prosecuting Westminster for contravening the Act of Union of 1707 - which was supposedly an 'equal and incorporating union' - and patently is not.
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What Cardiff, or anywhere else, voted, is irrelevent. They are not, with respect, nations; Scotland is, and will not be treated as a county, a region or a parliamentary constituency. Apparently the Lord Advocate (senior Scottish Law officer) is seriously contemplating prosecuting Westminster for contravening the Act of Union of 1707 - which was supposedly an 'equal and incorporating union' - and patently is not.
Citizens in Scotland were treated in exactly the same way as citizens in any other part of the UK. You each got exactly one vote.
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What Cardiff, or anywhere else, voted, is irrelevent. They are not, with respect, nations; Scotland is, and will not be treated as a county, a region or a parliamentary constituency. Apparently the Lord Advocate (senior Scottish Law officer) is seriously contemplating prosecuting Westminster for contravening the Act of Union of 1707 - which was supposedly an 'equal and incorporating union' - and patently is not.
Yet, in the spirit of that Act of 1707, the Scottish people are being treated perfectly equally by the British Government. The LA might need to consider prosecuting the Leave Campaign, or perhaps the leadership of the EU.
I wonder whether - if the Lord Advocate does prosecute Westminster - there might not be a counter-prosecution based on the inequality of many years-worth of Barnett Formula, which has benefited Scotland more than it has Wales or England.
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Yet, in the spirit of that Act of 1707, the Scottish people are being treated perfectly equally by the British Government. The LA might need to consider prosecuting the Leave Campaign, or perhaps the leadership of the EU.
I wonder whether - if the Lord Advocate does prosecute Westminster - there might not be a counter-prosecution based on the inequality of many years-worth of Barnett Formula, which has benefited Scotland more than it has Wales or England.
The ultimate irony is that Jim Wallace, former leader of the Lib Dems in Scotland (and Deputy First Minister in the Lab/Lib Dem administration) believes there may actually be a case for citing the 1707 Act....and that it may be necessary to test it in the highest court....that of the ECHR!
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Here's another spanner in the works, courtesy of the University of Aberdeen - and worth a read. https://aberdeenunilaw.wordpress.com/2016/07/11/article-50-the-articles-of-union-and-using-the-royal-prerogative-to-end-the-union-between-scotland-and-england/
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Here's another spanner in the works, courtesy of the University of Aberdeen - and worth a read. https://aberdeenunilaw.wordpress.com/2016/07/11/article-50-the-articles-of-union-and-using-the-royal-prerogative-to-end-the-union-between-scotland-and-england/
Nice wishful thinking. I don't see how the Royal prerogative could be used by anybody except the monarch's choice of UK prime minister. That's assuming that the supreme court rules in favour of the government in the Brexit case.