Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => Politics & Current Affairs => Topic started by: Walter on November 07, 2016, 06:08:20 PM
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the answer came from those who do not want any more Islamification of our country .
and I am with them.
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That's nice, do you have an argument?
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the answer came from those who do not want any more Islamification of our country .
and I am with them.
And what Islamification has taken place already?
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And what Islamification has taken place already?
None!
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Brexit my arse?
It's the first time I've the word used as a verb. No thank you.
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And what Islamification has taken place already?
Perhaps you live in a quintessentially English village in the Yorkshire dales and unaware of places like Colne , Nelson, Burnley ,Blackburn, Darwin, Luton I could go on .
Or maybe you live in one of these places but your liberalism has blinded you to reality.
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I think perhaps it is not so much Islamisation, as a failure on the part of some groups to adapt to and adopt the British , more laid back, liberal way of things. By that it's very difficult not to mean the basic background CofE way, which could be called the better way, but really what needs to be strong enough to take over that 'background' culture is Humanism.
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Perhaps you live in a quintessentially English village in the Yorkshire dales and unaware of places like Colne , Nelson, Burnley ,Blackburn, Darwin, Luton I could go on .
Or maybe you live in one of these places but your liberalism has blinded you to reality.
I wouldn't say that what is happening in such places is Islamisation. There are also many Hindu Indians who struggle to integrate; similarly there are many Afro-Caribbean and even Europeans (some of the latter being Catholics or Orthodox) struggling in the same way.
Islamisation is very easy to claim, but far more difficult to prove. A better term is probably isolationism - something that is common amongst migrants to any country, and often carrying on over generations; furthermore, many young people are finding they suffer from it, whatever their cultural background.
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I wouldn't say that what is happening in such places is Islamisation. There are also many Hindu Indians who struggle to integrate; similarly there are many Afro-Caribbean and even Europeans (some of the latter being Catholics or Orthodox) struggling in the same way.
Islamisation is very easy to claim, but far more difficult to prove. A better term is probably isolationism - something that is common amongst migrants to any country, and often carrying on over generations; furthermore, many young people are finding they suffer from it, whatever their cultural background.
I don't know what your experience is of the places I mention but I know them well and I know what I've seen. It can only be called Islamification.
As for isolation the only people isolated are the indigenous population who would move out if they could afford to.
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I don't know what your experience is of the places I mention but I know them well and I know what I've seen. It can only be called Islamification.
As for isolation the only people isolated are the indigenous population who would move out if they could afford to.
I work in an area with just about the highest population of Muslims in the country - certainly higher than the places you've mentioned. And actually the communities are well established and stable, so if there was 'islamification' (whatever that means) it occurs a long while ago. Actually the issue is almost the reverse of what you are suggesting. Increasingly these areas a seeing a wave of 'gentrification' - as properties are relatively cheap trendy young professionals (dare I say hipsters) are moving in in large numbers pricing the established muslim population out of the area.
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Sharia courts? Would that count.
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I work in an area with just about the highest population of Muslims in the country - certainly higher than the places you've mentioned. And actually the communities are well established and stable, so if there was 'islamification' (whatever that means) it occurs a long while ago. Actually the issue is almost the reverse of what you are suggesting. Increasingly these areas a seeing a wave of 'gentrification' - as properties are relatively cheap trendy young professionals (dare I say hipsters) are moving in in large numbers pricing the established muslim population out of the area.
I hope you are right but its not my experience.
I worked for about 10 years in the places I mentioned and what I saw was well established communities. They were not communities I felt welcome in.
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and as an example I was held in a back room for a couple of hours against my will while the merits of the Qur'an were strongly related to me . There was no violence involved but it was a bit unnerving at the time.
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Sharia courts? Would that count.
exactly my point . We need to wake up
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Prof Davey
you must work in Tower Hamlets or Newham then. Is that right?
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I live in an area with plenty of Muslims, neighbours, shopkeepers, friends. Are they all holding Kalashnikovs under their beds, or what?
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I live in an area with plenty of Muslims, neighbours, shopkeepers, friends. Are they all holding Kalashnikovs under their beds, or what?
you never know, its a worry.
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you never know, its a worry.
I don't worry, that's your privilege.
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Moderator:
This thread, originally titled 'Brexit my arse', has been renamed to reflect the subject matter in the OP.
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I think perhaps it is not so much Islamisation, as a failure on the part of some groups to adapt to and adopt the British , more laid back, liberal way of things. By that it's very difficult not to mean the basic background CofE way, which could be called the better way, but really what needs to be strong enough to take over that 'background' culture is Humanism.
What has the CofE got to do with either Britain or the 'british way of life' (whatever that is), please, Susan?
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Walter - I live in Nelson but going towards the top of Brierfield way.
Islamification???
Sharia Courts
Halaal sections of supermarkets
Whole areas of just Muslims living, like parts of towns around me in the North West, near Burnley !!
Anyone want to add more?
Nick
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I don't know what your experience is of the places I mention but I know them well and I know what I've seen. It can only be called Islamification.
As for isolation the only people isolated are the indigenous population who would move out if they could afford to.
I actually enjoy wandering around places like Southall - there is a different vibe to other areas - I enjoy the diversity and I don't miss the scarcity of the 'indigenous' population. If every part of the country was the same it would be boring.
On the other hand I don't particularly enjoy the vibe of wandering around areas where people are very loud and aggressive, often due to excessive drinking. I'm not against all bars and clubs - some are pretty civilised and fun.
I've been to Nelson - once bought some property up there at rock bottom prices to rent out, but sold it all a while ago. Nelson was grey, boring and depressing the few times I visited - not somewhere where I would enjoy living, but I can't say that was because of Islamification.
What specifically was it about the Muslim population that bothered you?
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Moderator:
This thread, originally titled 'Brexit my arse', has been renamed to reflect the subject matter in the OP.
The subject in the OP is islamification.
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Sharia courts? Would that count.
You mean the Sharia councils that make decisions on religious issues for people who come to them for guidance? Even the ones that are part of the UK arbitration services cannot overrule regular British courts.
Not that I am a fan of sharia councils - there have been allegations that they discriminate against Muslim women seeking a religious divorce. But I don't see this as Islamification - it is part of UK culture to allow people to use arbitration or mediation services of their choosing.
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The subject in the OP is islamification.
Moderator:
You are correct JP, and the mistake is mine and not Walter's - I'll rectify it immediately (I'll also drop 'Politics' from the title).
Done that.
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Since the O/P is "Islamification in the UK"; I have yet to find any evidence of it. There may well be areas where a higher proportion of Moslems live; equally, there are otheres where hardly any reside. And since there is no unity in the idea of 'UK' anyway, the idea of Islamification in it is spurious.
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Yes, I'm baffled by the idea of Islamification. OK, there are halal butchers, and mosques, and headscarves. But the idea seems to be that we are going to be taken over. Well, I live surrounded by Muslim neighbours, shopkeepers, friends, and they are friendly and OK. I used to chat with my old Sufi friend about religion and God and football. What's going to happen? Oh, I forgot, we have a Muslim mayor - aagh, threatening Jaws-type music, this is just the beginning of Islamageddon.
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You mean the Sharia councils that make decisions on religious issues for people who come to them for guidance? Even the ones that are part of the UK arbitration services cannot overrule regular British courts.
Not that I am a fan of sharia councils - there have been allegations that they discriminate against Muslim women seeking a religious divorce. But I don't see this as Islamification - it is part of UK culture to allow people to use arbitration or mediation services of their choosing.
If it were only religious issues, arbitration or mediation.
These people say otherwise.
http://www.onelawforall.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/New-Report-Sharia-Law-in-Britain_fixed.pdf
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Which page do they say that?
For example on Page 9 it says "In one case, the stabbing of a Somali youth was dealt with in a Sharia Council.(29)"
I looked at note 29 on Page 9 and it says:
Sharia court frees London knife youths, This is London, 8 February 2008: http://www.thisislondon.
co.uk/standard/article-23436339-sharia-court-frees-london-knife-youths.do
The link doesn't work so I Googled it and got an Evening Standard article, which says:
Youth worker Aydarus Yusuf, 29, who was involved in setting up the hearing, said a group of Somali youths were arrested by police on suspicion of stabbing another Somali teenager.
The victim's family told officers the matter would be settled out of court and the suspects were released on bail. A hearing was convened and elders ordered the assailants to compensate the victim.
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/sharia-court-frees-london-knife-youths-6678487.html
So the Sharia court did not free London knife youths since the Sharia court has no power to detain them - the British courts freed them on bail in accordance with British criminal law.
Do you have any actual evidence of Sharia councils being permitted to do anything more than offer a mediation or arbitration service?
What is worrying is if people, whatever their background, allow themselves to be bullied or discriminated against in mediation or arbitration and do not challenge this in British civil courts. Unfortunately, as the court system is expensive to participate in, I can understand why parties choose the less expensive mediation option. And I also understand the argument that British courts and Family law can be discriminatory towards men.
According to page 10 of your link the Muslim Arbitration Tribunals (MAT) "are only permitted to conduct arbitration on issues such as commercial and inheritance disputes. Those decisions could be challenged in a civil court if not consistent with UK law or public policy but rarely are. Carla Revere, Chair of the Lawyers Secular Society, says: “Research has revealed that the MATs are purporting to conduct binding arbitrations on family law issues, and that decisions in areas like inheritance are inconsistent with UK law or public policy.”.....
Page 13 of your link states:
Moreover, whilst MATs purport to arbitrate in family cases, they have no legal jurisdiction to do so as the Family Courts retain jurisdiction over family cases due to the sensitive nature of these disputes and their consequences. Although the Arbitration Act 1996 does not clearly exclude family matters from its jurisdiction, nevertheless there is legal authority confirming that this is and should be the case.58 This point was confirmed by former Minister of Justice Jack Straw speaking in Parliament on 24 November 2008 when he said in response to a question about Sharia law courts in the UK: “Arbitration is not a system of dispute resolution that may be used in family cases. Therefore no draft consent orders embodying the terms of an agreement reached by the use of a Sharia Council have been enforced within the meaning of the Arbitration Act 1996 in matrimonial proceedings.”
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What are the arrangements for regulating and overseeing the operation and activities of Sharia councils?
As far as I can see there don't appear to be any. This is problematic.
For a period there were also "Sharia patrols" operating in the East End, which could have been taken to be a sign of Islamification ... these seem to be have been stopped following criticism by the East London Mosque and a couple of prosecutions.
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Some countries regulate and oversee mediation services but currently in Britain I don't think there is a regulatory body that mediators have to sign up to or be bound by.
Given the risk of injustice, mediation in civil matters is a voluntary process and either party is free to walk away and refuse to settle and any settlement that is contrary to public policy will not be enforced.
I agree that the illegal Sharia patrols were wrong and quite rightly stopped.
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Reminds me of the eruvs in London, which are Jewish areas, demarcated by various means, e.g. fishing wire.
Yeah, but come on, that's different. The Jews killed Jesus, OK, but the Muslimahs worship the devil, don't they? They're all secret IS members, and their beards contain high levels of C4. No, hang on, Muslimahs don't grow beards, but just give them half a chance!
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Reminds me of the eruvs in London, which are Jewish areas, demarcated by various means, e.g. fishing wire.
I did think of the eruvs in London - and other places - and the law's attitude (generally) that the Chassidic are a "self regulating community". Who thinks there is anything wrong with that?
Since the O/P is "Islamification in the UK"; I have yet to find any evidence of it. There may well be areas where a higher proportion of Moslems live; equally, there are otheres where hardly any reside. And since there is no unity in the idea of 'UK' anyway, the idea of Islamification in it is spurious.
Also areas where all sorts of people of diverse race, culture and religion live which is how it is where I live and no-one appears to think anything of it.
I've heard it said that where there are areas, such as that little pocket in the Borough of Tower Hamlets overwhelmingly populated by Muslims, non-Muslims feel 'foreign' and insecure if they venture there.
(To some extent it must be much the same in the hub of Stamford Hill.)
Nothing to be scared of, I would have thought. Hardly 'no-go' areas which are a different matter.
There's no answer to that, people can't help the way they feel. I probably wouldn't notice :D but I know other people do. The only thing to do is try to encourage those people to use reason. Prejudice is, after all, built on fear.
Walter said (previous page): "and as an example I was held in a back room for a couple of hours against my will while the merits of the Qur'an were strongly related to me . There was no violence involved but it was a bit unnerving at the time."
I would be seriously disturbed by an experience like that and wonder if Walter will share the circumstances with us. It's something that would be illegal in this country.
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Serious question
Do we have Hindu, Jewish & other religion courts here in the UK?
Nick
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They have no legal jurisdiction. The Kirk has a court system as well - has had since the 1540's. (And, trust me, the procedeures haven't changed much since then either...more's the pitty) Although the latter may involve solicitors and even advocates, it has no legal status unless the charges impinge on Scots law, when in very rare cases, the two may still combine.
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Paraphrased from what Gabriella said: are Sharia councils permitted to do anything more than offer a mediation or arbitration service?
I have not heard of Jewish or Hindu "courts" but certainly Orthodox Jewish communities are considered by the police to be self regulating. They deal with people in their community in their own way quite effectively. There are obvious exception, eg if there was a murder the cops would be called.
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B
An excellent idea & trust our Jewish communities to sort themselves out like this.
Keep it IN the family, eh?
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The Jewish Beth Din courts have been operating in Britain for many years - again as a an arbitration or mediation service or to give religious advice in civil/ personal matters, not criminal cases.
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/sharia-law-uk-britains-jewish-beth-din-court-example-muslim-legal-system-1540381
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B
An excellent idea & trust our Jewish communities to sort themselves out like this.
Keep it IN the family, eh?
Yes. Of course it isn't always possible but it seems to work quite well the majority of the time and the community likes it.
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I hope you are right but its not my experience.
I worked for about 10 years in the places I mentioned and what I saw was well established communities. They were not communities I felt welcome in.
Walter, I work in what is now called Cardiff Bay, but was the old Cardiff Docks area where there was a thriving Somali Muslim population dating from the late-19th/early-20th century. When the redevelopment took place, many of these folk were forcibly relocated to the St Mellons area of north-east Cardiff. However, there is still a sizeable community who stayed there. On the afternoon of the day that the EU referendum result was announced, I was walking from the Bay to Cardiff Central Station and walked between three twenty-somethings who were talking on the pavement. As I - a white 60-year-old - passed them, one of them asked me what I thought of the result. My response was initially guarded, but I suddenly realised that 10 minutes of reasoned and respectful discussion had taken place. OK the fact that, as someone who voted to remain, I was 'on their side' as it were ensured that there was no animosity - but I regularly walk through that same area on my way to and from work, and I feel no sense of fear, 5 months on.
I agree that there are some areas of the UK where such a feeling can exist - but those areas don't have to have anything to do with Muslims. There is another part of Cardiff, Ely, which has a mixed population, but predominantly white Caucasian and Afro-Caribbean - and probably majority Catholic - where I do feel at risk when I'm walking through it. It has long been known as the criminal and criminal violence centre of the city.
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If by "Islamification" Walter means Muslims - and I mean Muslims who cannot be mistaken for any other people of Middle Eastern origin or appearance - being given "preferential treatment" on the basis of their religion over all those of all other religions I can think, or have only seen, one uinstance of this and that is that banks and building societies require motorcyclists to remove their helmets but do no require Muslim women to remove the full-face veil.
Also, but a rather more OTT point, the robes and veil hide the sex of the individual and offer far greater scope for the hiding of weapons than Western dress.
Demands for the legalisation of Sharia Courts, on the condition that they only be used for the trials of Muslims accused of crimes against Islam and that any punishments handed down are aceptable within U K law and are applied equally to males and females (and I think that this last would be the larger stumbling block, as it would in the case of gays) as far as I can see this hardly qualifies as Islamification.
Now, if they demand my daughters wear a veil . . .
On my ex-wife it would probably be a good idea!
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Does a de facto blasphemy law which works only for Islam count?
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There is no reason why civil disputes shouldn't be dealt with by an Islamic body IF all parties are agreeable (though it shouldn't be titled a 'court') , but they should not be involved with any matters that breach criminal law.
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Yes.
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Some countries regulate and oversee mediation services but currently in Britain I don't think there is a regulatory body that mediators have to sign up to or be bound by.
Given the risk of injustice, mediation in civil matters is a voluntary process and either party is free to walk away and refuse to settle and any settlement that is contrary to public policy will not be enforced.
I agree that the illegal Sharia patrols were wrong and quite rightly stopped.
I was going to mention the Sharia patrols, also posters being put up indicating western style dress was not acceptable in certain streets.
In some places there are very small numbers of very radical Muslims, but they are concentrated into a small area ( Luton) therefore they give a false impression of the Muslim community IMO.
Not sure about other places.
Anjem Choudary ( the islamaphobes hero) went to Luton because of the radicals there.
Other than that, I don't think we are radicalised, and most Muslims I've met seem to think Anjem Choudary is an unqualified idiot.
Unfortunately it's people like Anjem Choudary that get the most media attention.
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Yes they do. It's the same with every group of people who have a distinct culture and/or religion. Not fair but how life is unfortunately.
In all honestly, I don't think it is right to put posters up giving instructions about how people should dress. It is so exclusive. We don't actually have the power or right to own and rule the little areas in which we live even if we have some local influence. Those who carry on as though they do have to be challenged.
Even the eruv areas do not exude any hostility or disapproval towards others who wander in and out of them or even live in or near them.
Thankfully there are far more areas that are mixed and have a live and let live atmosphere.
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Does a de facto blasphemy law which works only for Islam count?
Not if brought before a non-Sharia court.
Blasphemy hasd not been illegal for some time in the UK - however, I have always said that what Britons call tolerance - Isalm sees as weakness. A weakness that Islamic fundamentalists will and do exploit to the greatest extent possible without legal sanction.
Ref: see Choudry!
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Not if brought before a non-Sharia court.
Blasphemy hasd not been illegal for some time in the UK - however, I have always said that what Britons call tolerance - Isalm sees as wakness. A weakness that Islamic fundamentalists will and do exploit to the greatest extent possible without legal sanction.
Ref: see Choudry!
I know there was another thread on it but I do not mean that is has to be brought to a "court", just a general inability, or fear to have a laugh at Islam in the way it happened with Lewis Smith.
It is difficult to deny that Islam has had an impact on life in the UK, however I suppose it depends on how you define Islamification.
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I know there was another thread on it but I do not mean that is has to be brought to a "court", just a general inability, or fear to have a laugh at Islam in the way it happened with Lewis Smith.
It is difficult to deny that Islam has had an impact on life in the UK, however I suppose it depends on how you define Islamification.
Hence my reference to Choudry - eight years of preaching what would have had a Christian or a Pagan in the slammer in a matter of seconds before someone had the guts to decide that the law is a ass.
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I know there was another thread on it but I do not mean that is has to be brought to a "court", just a general inability, or fear to have a laugh at Islam in the way it happened with Lewis Smith.
It is difficult to deny that Islam has had an impact on life in the UK, however I suppose it depends on how you define Islamification.
It depends where you live.
If you live in a street where threatening posters go up, and people try and terrorise you into following sharia law, then you are going to think so. Or if you are getting stopped in the street.
If you hear the call to prayer instead of church bells, then it probably looks that way.
I don't, even though I have a Mosque about a mile away and the Muslim women are often seen wearing niquabs in town.
If you happen to live next door to militant Muslims then it's going to seem that way.
I can't say Islam has any impact on my life, other than seeing ladies in headscarfs and niquabs.
I suppose I see halal meat in supermarkets, but I also see kosher, and polish and Italian. ( I like the variety).
But I wouldn't want to live in some parts of Luton and not just because of the very small number of radical Muslims but also because it's the home of the EDL and I find them annoying to say the least.
If I lived in Luton and had someone tell me in the street that I looked undressed because I wore western style clothes, then yes I would feel threatened by it.
But no Muslim women dressed in a niquab has ever said anything like that to me.
So my guess is there is a tiny minority who make people feel like that.
A bit like most white British people don't normally go round ripping off Islamic headwear on the streets and in supermarkets saying its oppression.
A tiny minority do these things, most Muslims and other groups don't. It's the minority on both sides causing fear.
Yet fear of these things are spread, until everyone starts feeling threatened.
The answer is for people to talk, Muslims feel threatened too sometimes.
These tiny minorities make everyone uncomfortable.
This is Luton.
https://youtu.be/HyWvEV8MOOs
Again it is only a minority doing this, most Muslims from Luton are not like this at all.
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Rose: (and what went before....)
It's the minority on both sides causing fear.
Yet fear of these things are spread, until everyone starts feeling threatened.
The answer is for people to talk, Muslims feel threatened too sometimes.
These tiny minorities make everyone uncomfortable.
Thumbs up for that post, Rose.
They are extremely tiny minorities but because they receive more publicity than anyone anywhere else people forget or don't believe that.
Luton is one place but Tower Hamlets in London is always making news yet there is only a tiny pocket that is what could be called 'a Muslim area'. Canary wharf isn't!
Most of us are not extremists, we live and let live.
Not only do people need to talk but boycott the newspapers which constantly stir up fear and hatred with their sensational articles.
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I think you all need to wake up and look around you . Our way of life is under threat and as for London Mayor I don't trust him .
If the rest of the country had had a say in it I don't think a Muslim would be in charge of OUR capital city.
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Sadiq Khan is very much a Londoner.. He was known as someone who worked in the field of human rights. People voted for the man and his personal faith was not relevant. Tbh, I've not known any previous mayor's faith, or lack of, to be noteworthy. If he isn't up to the job he won't be voted in again.
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I think you all need to wake up and look around you . Our way of life is under threat and as for London Mayor I don't trust him .
If the rest of the country had had a say in it I don't think a Muslim would be in charge of OUR capital city.
Sorry to say this Walter, but this post says far more about you than about the situation you are complaining about.
It certainly, from my perspective, does you no credit whatsoever - in fact, it is almost Trumpian in tone.
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Sorry to say this Walter, but this post says far more about you than about the situation you are complaining about.
It certainly, from my perspective, does you no credit whatsoever - in fact, it is almost Trumpian in tone.
I thank you for the compliment, cheers.
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I thank you for the compliment, cheers.
If you take that as a compliment . . . you have achieved something rarely seen on this forum . . . havin me consign you to the greatest depths of contempt imaginable.
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If you take that as a compliment . . . you have achieved something rarely seen on this forum . . . havin me consign you to the greatest depths of contempt imaginable.
fortunately for me I have no respect for your authority
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I think you all need to wake up and look around you . Our way of life is under threat and as for London Mayor I don't trust him .
If the rest of the country had had a say in it I don't think a Muslim would be in charge of OUR capital city.
I invite you to look at Pat Condell on youtube
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fortunately for me I have no respect for your authority
You have no respect FULL STOP!
Neither do you deserve any from any one else!
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I invite you to look at Pat Condell on youtube
If he is your authority, no wonder you have such opinions. It is people like you and your hero who turn ordinary decent Muslims to militancy of one sort and level or another and decent whites into anti-Muslim militants.
I, at least, have the ability to ignore you - which is probably as well as I would otherwise end up being suspended or banned and I am not going to give you that satisfaction.
Fare well.
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Pat Condell makes a career out of taking the piss. Nothing wrong with that in itself, many comedians do so, but constantly sniping at people of religion wears a bit thin after a while.
Regarding Sadiq Khan, I doubt many are worried about his faith, he's a moderate man and the British tend to go for moderates when it comes to religion, it's when people bang on about their religion all the time they are put off; he is a Londoner so he understands the concerns of Londoners. I like what I have seen so far but he has yet to prove himself.
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If he is your authority, no wonder you have such opinions. It is people like you and your hero who turn ordinary deent Muslims to militancy of one sort and level or another and decent whites into anti-Muslim militants.
I, at least, have the ability to ignore you - which is probably as well as I would otherwise end up being suspended or banned and I am not going to give you that satisfaction.
Fare well.
get over yourself
here it is , this is a perfect example of the hate generated just because someone sees a situation in a different way from you
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Who is hating Pat Condell? Hate is too strong a word.
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see #625 on
more election stuff trhead
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Pat Condell makes a career out of taking the piss. Nothing wrong with that in itself, many comedians do so, but constantly sniping at people of religion wears a bit thin after a while.
What about sniping at just, religion.
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What about sniping at just, religion.
as far I can see he tells it like it is.
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I Like Pat Condell.
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I Like Pat Condell.
CAREFUL, YOU CUOLD BE CALLED A RACIST
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If only Islam was a race eh.
Been here before Walter and I just don't get it.
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If only Islam was a race eh.
Been here before Walter and I just don't get it.
for some the distinction is not apparent.
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as far I can see he tells it like it is.
When Pat Condell "tells it like it is" let's hope he does a bit better with accuracy than some of the information in the link JP posted to the organisation One Law For All. He is a comedian though so I doubt it - he is almost certainly less concerned about accuracy and more interested in generalising for better comedic effect. He described Muslim women who cover their faces in Britain as mentally ill. I suppose it is as accurate as saying men who wear their trousers half way down their backsides are mentally ill. I doubt that people who have been professionally diagnosed as genuinely mentally ill will see the funny side of this.
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When Pat Condell "tells it like it is" let's hope he does a bit better with accuracy than some of the information in the link JP posted to the organisation One Law For All. He is a comedian though so I doubt it - he is almost certainly less concerned about accuracy and more interested in generalising for better comedic effect. He described Muslim women who cover their faces in Britain as mentally ill. I suppose it is as accurate as saying men who wear their trousers half way down their backsides are mentally ill. I doubt that people who have been professionally diagnosed as genuinely mentally ill will see the funny side of this.
I find nothing in your post which changes my mind.
I know he is a comedian but all the videos I've seen were not meant to be humorous, so bear that in mind.
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I find nothing in your post which changes my mind.
I wasn't expecting it to - people believe what they want to believe. Presumably you weren't expecting anything in your posts to change Alan Burn's mind.
I know he is a comedian but all the videos I've seen were not meant to be humorous, so bear that in mind.
Yes, not much humour in the situation.
Pat Condell calling someone mentally ill because they dress a different way is probably about as humorous as calling someone mentally ill, stupid or racist because they see a situation a different way.
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Gabriella: "Pat Condell calling someone mentally ill because they dress a different way is probably about as humorous as calling someone mentally ill, stupid or racist because they see a situation a different way."
Quite and it is an attitude I've come across quite a lot on many issues. Particularly the 'stupid' and 'mentally ill' comments. "Keep on taking the tablets", or "They need to get some help", etc. The person saying it will say they were "joking" or being "ironic".
There are limits.
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I wasn't expecting it to - people believe what they want to believe. Presumably you weren't expecting anything in your posts to change Alan Burn's mind.
Yes, not much humour in the situation.
Pat Condell calling someone mentally ill because they dress a different way is probably about as humorous as calling someone mentally ill, stupid or racist because they see a situation a different way.
Actually I was
and if the god of Islam had wanted women to cover their faces , surely he would have provided a flap of skin which could be lowered or raised as appropriate.
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Gabriella: "Pat Condell calling someone mentally ill because they dress a different way is probably about as humorous as calling someone mentally ill, stupid or racist because they see a situation a different way."
Quite and it is an attitude I've come across quite a lot on many issues. Particularly the 'stupid' and 'mentally ill' comments. "Keep on taking the tablets", or "They need to get some help", etc. The person saying it will say they were "joking" or being "ironic".
There are limits.
but my limits may be different from yours. Where does that leave us eh?
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Actually I was
and if the god of Islam had wanted women to cover their faces , surely he would have provided a flap of skin which could be lowered or raised as appropriate.
Let me guess - on that basis you're against Muslim women wearing clothes too as an act of modesty or privacy - because if the god of Islam had wanted them to wear clothes, surely he would have provided....
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Let me guess - on that basis you're against Muslim women wearing clothes too as an act of modesty or privacy - because if the god of Islam had wanted them to wear clothes, surely he would have provided....
aww c'mon there's a big difference here and you know it , ignoring or trying to defend it is futile ,Gabby.
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aww c'mon there's a big difference here and you know it , ignoring or trying to defend it is futile ,Gabby.
I am not ignoring that wearing less clothes is different from wearing more clothes. People use clothes, hair, piercings, accessories often as a way of making a statement or as a point of identity. A niqab is just one variation of this. To me it's no different from getting a tattoo on your face - other than that tattoos are more permanent. Does that mean I'm defending tattoos - not really - I'm indifferent.
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I am not ignoring that wearing less clothes is different from wearing more clothes. People use clothes, hair, piercings, accessories often as a way of making a statement or as a point of identity. A niqab is just one variation of this. To me it's no different from getting a tattoo on your face - other than that tattoos are more permanent. Does that mean I'm defending tattoos - not really - I'm indifferent
no its not the same at all . you can pretend if you like but the fact remains
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I am not ignoring that wearing less clothes is different from wearing more clothes. People use clothes, hair, piercings, accessories often as a way of making a statement or as a point of identity. A niqab is just one variation of this. To me it's no different from getting a tattoo on your face - other than that tattoos are more permanent. Does that mean I'm defending tattoos - not really - I'm indifferent.
Well, why do women cover their breasts? Isn't this another example of cultural styles? We know that some cultures did not do this, but generally in the modern world, women do. Ironically, in the 50s, many women wore headscarves, and you can still see the Queen doing it sometimes.
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no its not the same at all . you can pretend if you like but the fact remains
Just asserting it's not the same and a 'fact' remains is pointless on here and easily dismissed.
It's different because you and Pat see the world a different way - that's not really a compelling argument. You can pretend if you like.
ETA - I'm curious - you seem to think it is ok to tell people they are pretending if they see the world a different way from you, but then write posts saying your critical thinking is not inferior just because you see things differently when it comes to Farage. Are you pretending when you say you like Farage despite the flaws Prof D outlined?
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Just asserting it's not the same and a 'fact' remains is pointless on here and easily dismissed.
It's different because you and Pat see the world a different way - that's not really a compelling argument. You can pretend if you like.
It's ammunition for the bigots, and they will always find ammunition. If it's not clothing it would be something else. The same thing happened with the Jews, it was their physical appearance, or their clothes, or their financial dealings, or their seduction of white women, on and on it goes.
http://research.calvin.edu/german-propaganda-archive/images/sturmer/ds3.jpg
Caption: 'Revenge; go where you wanted me to go, evil spirit.'
http://research.calvin.edu/german-propaganda-archive/images/sturmer/ds16a.jpg
Caption:
"Ignorant, lured by gold,
They stand disgraced in Judah’s fold.
Souls poisoned, blood infected,
Disaster broods in their wombs."
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It's ammunition for the bigots, and they will always find ammunition. If it's not clothing it would be something else. The same thing happened with the Jews, it was their physical appearance, or their clothes, or their financial dealings, or their seduction of white women, on and on it goes.
http://research.calvin.edu/german-propaganda-archive/images/sturmer/ds3.jpg
if your statement is true , we are both bigots
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if your statement is true , we are both bigots
We could all be bigots about something - as I said before, people often believe what they want to believe regardless of the potential doubts that could be created by facts.
Maybe people find it uncomfortable to allow themselves to be less sure in their beliefs. Or maybe challenging or opposing the beliefs of others is just a fun way to pass the time.
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Some forms of bigotry become very dangerous. The obvious example was in the 30s, when Jews were targeted by right wing nationalists. But this was going on in the middle of desperate economic circumstances, with massive unemployment and inflation in Germany, so the two together became (literally) lethal.
We don't have that economic disaster today, so at the moment, I am fairly optimistic that the attacks on Muslims will not lead to a 30s type solution. However, this depends on a robust economy; if this went down the pan, then I would expect fascism to take advantage, and Muslims would be a prime target (and scape-goat). But there would plenty of other targets, e.g. trade unions, people on the left, Jews, black people, etc.
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Just asserting it's not the same and a 'fact' remains is pointless on here and easily dismissed.
It's different because you and Pat see the world a different way - that's not really a compelling argument. You can pretend if you like.
ETA - I'm curious - you seem to think it is ok to tell people they are pretending if they see the world a different way from you, but then write posts saying your critical thinking is not inferior just because you see things differently when it comes to Farage. Are you pretending when you say you like Farage despite the flaws Prof D outlined?
no I'm not pretending . I agree with some of the things Farage says.
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Some forms of bigotry become very dangerous. The obvious example was in the 30s, when Jews were targeted by right wing nationalists. But this was going on in the middle of desperate economic circumstances, with massive unemployment and inflation in Germany, so the two together became (literally) lethal.
We don't have that economic disaster today, so at the moment, I am fairly optimistic that the attacks on Muslims will not lead to a 30s type solution. However, this depends on a robust economy; if this went down the pan, then I would expect fascism to take advantage, and Muslims would be a prime target (and scape-goat). But there would plenty of other targets, e.g. trade unions, people on the left, Jews, black people, etc.
I mostly agree with this, however I dislike Muslims for different reasons.
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it appears two threads are converging here
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I mostly agree with this, however I dislike Muslims for different reasons.
All Muslims?
Any other religious group?
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Some forms of bigotry become very dangerous. The obvious example was in the 30s, when Jews were targeted by right wing nationalists. But this was going on in the middle of desperate economic circumstances, with massive unemployment and inflation in Germany, so the two together became (literally) lethal.
Yes I agree.
Economic issues and cultural changes create the environment where bigotry can become dangerous, especially if tapped into or exploited by politicians or influential people in the community.
In Sri Lanka we had Buddhists priests whipping up Buddhist nationalist sentiments against Tamils and Muslim minorities. In Pakistan, the relatively well-educated Ahmaddiya community face appalling bigotry, having previously been appointed to influential positions in the government due to their higher levels of education. In the US there seems to have been a back-lash against the perceived elitism produced by education.
People have to weigh up how far they are prepared to dabble in bigotry and what it will cost them in terms of the type of liberal or conservative society that they want to live in.
We don't have that economic disaster today, so at the moment, I am fairly optimistic that the attacks on Muslims will not lead to a 30s type solution. However, this depends on a robust economy; if this went down the pan, then I would expect fascism to take advantage, and Muslims would be a prime target (and scape-goat). But there would plenty of other targets, e.g. trade unions, people on the left, Jews, black people, etc.
It's not that clear cut. The complication is that plenty of Muslims have their own versions of bigotry. Bigotry seems to breed bigotry so not sure who is going to get off the bigotry merry-go-round first.
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no I'm not pretending . I agree with some of the things Farage says.
Are you pretending not to see his flaws?
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Gabriella wrote:
It's not that clear cut. The complication is that plenty of Muslims have their own versions of bigotry. Bigotry seems to breed bigotry so not sure who is going to get off the bigotry merry-go-round first.
Absolutely, but the point about the 30s was that you got state-sponsored bigotry, and in fact, terrorism against a minority. As I said, we are not near that point, partly because the economy is strong and also there is still a tradition in the UK of not persecuting people. But if you look around Europe, you can see the seeds of right wing persecution of minorities, but those factions do not hold power. If they do, heaven help us.
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Are you pretending not to see his flaws?
I see his flaws, but I doubt they are the same ones you want me to see.
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All Muslims?
Any other religious group?
I don't trust any religious group especially muslims
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Gabriella wrote:
Absolutely, but the point about the 30s was that you got state-sponsored bigotry, and in fact, terrorism against a minority. As I said, we are not near that point, partly because the economy is strong and also there is still a tradition in the UK of not persecuting people. But if you look around Europe, you can see the seeds of right wing persecution of minorities, but those factions do not hold power. If they do, heaven help us.
I think this is where the US Clinton campaign and the pro-Europe campaign found itself out of step with the concerns of people who think that state-sponsored bigotry is a price worth paying to fight the imposition of cultural values they do not agree with or to push back against members of minority groups who also openly display bigotry. Maybe a home-grown bigot is preferable to a foreign bigot? That probably explains the appeal of meaningless slogans and catchy sound-bites that can't actually be implemented - keep it simple and catchy by generalising. Being factually / statistically accurate would just over-complicate things and many people seem to have short attention spans.
The problem is that generalising about a group of people is clearly factually inaccurate so it ends up being frustrating for people who display bigotry that their concerns get summarily dismissed because they are unable to articulate or communicate them. Somewhere amongst the bigotry there might have been one or two credible arguments but they were not presented in a way that might persuade.
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I see his flaws, but I doubt they are the same ones you want me to see.
Maybe.
I see flaws in the niqab but I doubt they are the same ones you want me to see. I live in London, I have travelled a lot - people having different customs that seem strange to me doesn't particularly alarm me. Plus the 3 or 4 women wearing niqab that I have met in my life seemed quite sure of their reasons for doing it - one said her Muslim husband did not approve and thought it was weird and she did it anyway. I have not seen her for 14 years so not sure if they are still married.
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I don't trust any religious group especially muslims
Do you have to trust a group of people for anything in particular? I would think most of us go about our lives, mixing with many people (often not knowing or thinking about their religion, if any), and unless we become personally involved in some way, trust doesn't come into it. Neither does distrust.
Just saw Gabriella's post about the niqab and my experience of fairly young women in this country who wear it is that they choose to for various reasons, even though their mothers and sisters do not. Nadiya Hussein is an example of that. I wonder if, in ten years or so, we will see less of it here. Who knows?
Like Gabriella, it doesn't bother me in the least and most of the time I don't notice.
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Gabby
I like your post #95
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Do you have to trust a group of people for anything in particular? I would think most of us go about our lives, mixing with many people (often not knowing or thinking about their religion, if any), and unless we become personally involved in some way, trust doesn't come into it. Neither does distrust.
Just saw Gabriella's post about the niqab and my experience of fairly young women in this country who wear it is that they choose to for various reasons, even though their mothers and sisters do not. Nadiya Hussein is an example of that. I wonder if, in ten years or so, we will see less of it here. Who knows?
Like Gabriella, it doesn't bother me in the least and most of the time I don't notice.
I see it rarely now but when I do it comes as a surprise and think to myself WTF?
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Do you have to trust a group of people for anything in particular? I would think most of us go about our lives, mixing with many people (often not knowing or thinking about their religion, if any), and unless we become personally involved in some way, trust doesn't come into it. Neither does distrust.
Just saw Gabriella's post about the niqab and my experience of fairly young women in this country who wear it is that they choose to for various reasons, even though their mothers and sisters do not. Nadiya Hussein is an example of that. I wonder if, in ten years or so, we will see less of it here. Who knows?
Like Gabriella, it doesn't bother me in the least and most of the time I don't notice.
The problem is that due to decades (centuries) of dominance in military, science and economy...the West has become terribly judgmental. Everything they do is right and anything that is done differently is simply wrong. Progress is always the way the West is going.
This is changing of course, but still some way to go.
Nothing to do with Islamification (?) of UK....but just some thoughts.
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I see it rarely now but when I do it comes as a surprise and think to myself WTF?
Surely there are lots of WTF moments in life though. Things like this are not particularly alarming - at least not enough to despair about the state of the country and worry about immigration.
If I see a girl in a barely there skirt with bare legs and a flimsy top out for the night when it's really cold - that's more a WTF moment for me compared to a niqab. It wouldn't make me despair about the state of the country though.
I think differences stop Life being too boring.
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Surely there are lots of WTF moments in life though. Things like this are not particularly alarming - at least not enough to despair about the state of the country and worry about immigration.
If I see a girl in a barely there skirt with bare legs and a flimsy top out for the night when it's really cold - that's more a WTF moment for me compared to a niqab. It wouldn't make me despair about the state of the country though.
I think differences stop Life being too boring.
until the different blow you to fucking bits . but thanks for your reply
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until the different blow you to fucking bits . but thanks for your reply
Very droll - did a woman in niqab try to blow you to bits or do you just suffer from an over-active imagination?
I grew up in London during the IRA bombing campaign. I was working in Canary Wharf when the IRA set off a bomb in the Docklands. Like most British people I didn't over-react every time I passed an Irish man or woman. In fact after-work drinks often ended up in an Irish pub.
Anyway, why worry about getting blown to bits now - people have been blowing each other to bits for centuries - the current UK economy depends on it since manufacturing and selling weapons which blow people to bits pays for a lot of the services and infrastructure in Britain. Some towns in Britain depend on the defence industry. Clearly the risk of their fellow citizens getting blown to bits is a price worth paying for the British arms manufacturers and ordinary people who want economic prosperity - most people don't complain about the jobs the arms industry provides.
I think you're making this blowing to bits thing way too personal - it's just business.
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Not sure about the Islamification of Britain but I do think we are being overly tolerant. For example we have defacto accepted Islamic blasphemy rules which means that no honest examination of the life of Mohammad can be made without the very real fear of violence, I do not understand why it is acceptable to make fun of Christians, politicians almost everything but Islam. I also think we have not pushed back when Muslims have overstepped the mark, I am thinking of Salmon Rushdie, we should have stood up for our right to expression and yes right to offend, I don't blame muslims for this I blame wrong headed people in authority who are judging a medieval mindset with 21st century values, the end result everyone is unhappy because there are no clear boundaries.
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er .. where have we accepted Islamic blasphemy rules? And we did stand up for Salmon Rushdie and rights of free speech, surely?
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Would we print a cartoon of Mohammad? If not why not? I seem to recall we put Rushdie into hiding and took no action against the people threatening him or burning books.
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Extracts from a news report from The Times:
Muslim girls must take part in school swimming lessons alongside boys because burkinis meet Islamic strictures governing modesty, the German constitutional court has ruled.
In a case brought by an 11-year-old from a Moroccan family, judges at Germany’s highest court said that schools had a duty to promote “social behaviour” and that co-educational swimming was “not a particularly serious impairment of religious freedom”.
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The judges said that sports education was compulsory in Hesse and noted that the girl took part in other sports while dressed in trousers, long sleeves and a headscarf ... There was “a greater likelihood of unintended bodily contact between male and female pupils in the exercise of team sports than in swimming lessons”.
The girl’s lawyers had also argued that she could not avoid looking at scantily clad boys at the swimming pool but judges said that freedom of belief “must come behind the school mission” to educate and socialise pupils.
A statement that religious practices do not take precedence over national values in Germany.
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Would we print a cartoon of Mohammad? If not why not? I seem to recall we put Rushdie into hiding and took no action against the people threatening him or burning books.
There are (as far as I know) no laws to prohibit publication of those or other cartoons. Possibly a publisher could be prosecuted for anti-religious hate speech, but this seems unlikely and would probably fail. UK editors seem to have decided individually not to publish them, probably because they were already widely available and not really very funny.
Rushdie was given protection for many years, and the Satanic Verses continued to be published. There was no official ban. Most death threats were not in the UK, we could hardly have invaded Iran or Pakistan or prosecuted people for book burning. The only known would be assassin manged to blow himself up.
Actually this reminds me to get my copy out as I never actually finished it - Rushdie's books start off great but I always seem to lose interest halfway through!
On the whole I think the UK is handling "Muslim issues" reasonably well.
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Extracts from a news report from The Times:
A statement that religious practices do not take precedence over national values in Germany.
Seems entirely reasonable. We should do the same if there are significant numbers of Muslim girls skipping swimming for reasons of "modesty".