Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Hope on November 18, 2016, 08:10:14 AM
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-38012267
In view of this judgement, I wonder how much the family will be paying for - say - the next 20 years in order to keep this youngster's body cryogenically frozen? Is it really good use of money, and is there really any evidence to show (as opposed to merely suggest) that the revere process can actually work after such a period of time - or longer?
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It is very tragic. I suspect it is extremely unlikely that people who are frozen in this way can be brought back to life, even if a cure for their illnesses have been found. Besides which, the bodies could be accidently defrosted, or the relatives unable to keep up the payments!
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-38012267
In view of this judgement, I wonder how much the family will be paying for - say - the next 20 years in order to keep this youngster's body cryogenically frozen? Is it really good use of money, and is there really any evidence to show (as opposed to merely suggest) that the revere process can actually work after such a period of time - or longer?
So, Hope, you want to show your disapproval of this action and its support by the courts. I'm sure that you would really like to produce some overwhelming theological reason why it should be wrong but cannot so reduce yourself to cost accountancy. Is it really any of our business what the family will be paying? That is their concern - not our's.
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So, Hope, you want to show your disapproval of this action and its support by the courts. I'm sure that you would really like to produce some overwhelming theological reason why it should be wrong but cannot so reduce yourself to cost accountancy. Is it really any of our business what the family will be paying? That is their concern - not our's.
No intention in bringing theology to bear on the issue, HH. Rather, I'm unsure whether it can actually produce a practical outcome from a scientific perspective. Unlike you, HH, my thought patterns aren't only based on theology ;)
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I just heard about that on the news. It is so unusual for children or teenagers to be afraid of dying in the way that adults often are, they are generally more accepting, seeming to be able to live for the day.
I wonder how much her parents influenced her in this decision.
Poor kid. Hope it doesn't start a 'fashion' over here.
I do wonder how successful the cryogenic method is, people are frozen for a very long time and one would think there'd be some deterioration.
Horrible.
Like Hope, I didn't think of this in theological terms.
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Rather, I'm unsure whether it can actually produce a practical outcome from a scientific perspective.
Why mention the money side then? (twice).
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I just heard about that on the news. It is so unusual for children or teenagers to be afraid of dying in the way that adults often are, they are generally more accepting, seeming to be able to live for the day.
I wonder how much her parents influenced her in this decision.
Poor kid. Hope it doesn't start a 'fashion' over here.
I do wonder how successful the cryogenic method is, people are frozen for a very long time and one would think there'd be some deterioration.
Horrible.
Like Hope, I didn't think of this in theological terms.
While I am cynical about the idea of cryonics, why is it horrible?
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I can imagine someone being 'woken up' with freezer burn on their extremities so bits drop off.
Horror movie stuff really.
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I can imagine someone being 'woken up' with freezer burn on their extremities so bits drop off.
Horror movie stuff really.
and I don't have to imagine people being killed in car accidents on a daily basis. Is car travel therefore horrible?
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Article by Simon Jenkins on subject
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/nov/18/cryonics-may-absurb-but-glad-legal
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Even if it was possible to bring frozen people back to life, the world would probably be very different, and all the people they knew would be dead. They might be treated as medical experiments rather than people!
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Even if it was possible to bring frozen people back to life, the world would probably be very different, and all the people they knew would be dead. They might be treated as medical experiments rather than people!
at this stage in human endeavour I think the medical experiment aspect is of paramount importance in the quest for knowledge.
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at this stage in human endeavour I think the medical experiment aspect is of paramount importance in the quest for knowledge.
Are you putting yourself forward as a guinea pig for this fanciful nonsense?
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Are you putting yourself forward as a guinea pig for this fanciful nonsense?
That's a grest idea. I'm donating my corpse to science. Maybe I should specify this branch?
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I would be happy for my corpse to be used for medical science, but not for the nonsense scam I believe cryonics to be. Once a person is really dead they are not going to be resurrected in the future, however advanced medical science becomes.
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I would be happy for my corpse to be used for medical science, but not for the nonsense scam I believe cryonics to be. Once a person is really dead they are not going to be resurrected in the future, however advanced medical science becomes.
argument by incredulity
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and I don't have to imagine people being killed in car accidents on a daily basis. Is car travel therefore horrible?
Not to you ;D, quite funny you mentioned that because I am frightened of car travel, have to take a sedative before a long journey which involves motorways or dual carriageways, can manage short journeys if I sit in the back. I can't control thoughts that come into my head, wish I could! I get 'the horrors' frequently and often quite irrationally, sometimes wake up in blind panic. I have learned some coping strategies, which divert and calm (but that's my problem so I'll say no more about it).
Even if it was possible to bring frozen people back to life, the world would probably be very different, and all the people they knew would be dead. They might be treated as medical experiments rather than people!
Yes, the person may well not like the world they wake up in at all.
Just read a more recent post of yours, presumably the person is not dead at the time of freezing (?).
I wonder if anyone has been frozen for years and then woken up? I know the technique, or something like it, is used for relatively short times for some surgical procedures, and embryos are frozen.
It must cost a bomb to have your body maintained, frozen, for donkeys' years.
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According to Wiki Cryonics procedures can only begin after legal death, and cryonics "patients" are considered legally dead.
According to the lunchtime news, even if resurrection was a possibility it could be hundreds of years into the future, so who is going to pay for the bodies to stay frozen that long? Apparently a lot of companies are involved in cryonics in the US, and number of them are not fit for purpose!
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According to Wiki Cryonics procedures can only begin after legal death, and cryonics "patients" are considered legally dead.
According to the lunchtime news, even if resurrection was a possibility it could be hundreds of years into the future, so who is going to pay for the bodies to stay frozen that long? Apparently a lot of companies are involved in cryonics in the US, and number of them are not fit for purpose!
Yeo, I too am cynical about the controls, doesn't mean that it isn't possible which is what you said previously
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Oh right, so they are legally dead before being frozen. Thanks for that, floo.
Thinking about it, they would have died of a serious illness and been very ill before death. So on waking, they would be extremely sick and suffering.
Even if a cure had been found for their illness, the damage done to their body might be irreparable - and cures, eg 'wonder drugs' and new surgical techniques, don't always work, especially on someone who has been weakened by a severe illness.
Just a few thoughts to throw into the pot.
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Yeo, I too am cynical about the controls, doesn't mean that it isn't possible which is what you said previously
Well I don't believe it is possible.
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I think it is possible, maybe not likely or safe but possible.
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I think it is possible, maybe not likely or safe but possible.
Hmmmmmmm! Oh well we won't be around to see it.
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Well I don't believe it is possible.
And the argument by incredulity fallacy gets another outing
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And the argument by incredulity fallacy gets another outing
Ehhhhhhhhhh? Plain English please!
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It means because something is beyond person's imagination, it cannot be true.
People used to believe the world was flat (some still do ???), because they could not envisage anything beyond what they could see. So to them, a flat earth was the truth.
PS: I too was thinking I won't be around to see it but cryonics has been going on for a many years so someone could be defrosted soon. I wonder if it has happened already, haven't heard of it but it's slightly possible.
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Ehhhhhhhhhh? Plain English please!
It is plain English and gets pointed out a lot on here.
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argument_from_incredulity
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Well I don't believe it is possible.
that's the kind of comment my old grandmother used to make, with quite some authority.
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I can imagine!
My mum used to say, "I've never heard of such a thing, you're imagining it!", with equal authority.
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that's the kind of comment my old grandmother used to make, with quite some authority.
and this is quite funny
she once asked me what id been studying at school, I said 'physics' there was a pause and she replied 'what, that stuff you take for an upset stomach?; er, yes gran.
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Oh right, so they are legally dead before being frozen. Thanks for that, floo.
Thinking about it, they would have died of a serious illness and been very ill before death. So on waking, they would be extremely sick and suffering.
Even if a cure had been found for their illness, the damage done to their body might be irreparable - and cures, eg 'wonder drugs' and new surgical techniques, don't always work, especially on someone who has been weakened by a severe illness.
Just a few thoughts to throw into the pot.
Yes...and after battling all these odds, the guy will find himself in a totally different society in which he knows no one and is related to no one. A complete 'odd one out'. What work will he do, how will he acquire the knowledge required? They may have to build a home for such people from another century.
And finally when he does die again (he has to sometime I guess)...will he get frozen again for another 200 years or will he just die like the rest of us?!
And how do we know technology is going to keep advancing anyway. It could just stop due to some natural disaster or human degeneration.
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I don't believe cryonics has any merit, but of course I could be wrong. But as I have said previously, if I am wrong, I won't know, nor will other posters on this forum as we will be dead and gone well before then.
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Yes...and after battling all these odds, the guy will find himself in a totally different society in which he knows no one and is related to no one. A complete 'odd one out'. What work will he do, how will he acquire the knowledge required? They may have to build a home for such people from another century.
And finally when he does die again (he has to sometime I guess)...will he get frozen again for another 200 years or will he just die like the rest of us?!
And how do we know technology is going to keep advancing anyway. It could just stop due to some natural disaster or human degeneration.
perhaps think of it as not the whole person but the body parts being useful in the future.
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perhaps think of it as not the whole person but the body parts being useful in the future.
Now that could be a good idea.
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I don't believe cryonics has any merit, but of course I could be wrong. But as I have said previously, if I am wrong, I won't know, nor will other posters on this forum as we will be dead and gone well before then.
You might not be! As I said before, cryonics has been going on for a long time, someone could be defrosted any minute and it might have happened already.
Body parts for research is OK but could I be frozen and defrosted without 'coming back to life'? (I feel a song coming on.) I suppose that's possible.
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And finally when he does die again (he has to sometime I guess)...will he get frozen again for another 200 years or will he just die like the rest of us?!
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Refreezing after thawing will reduce quality and can be unsafe. Meat can be refrozen if cooked immediately after thawing :)
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Refreezing after thawing will reduce quality and can be unsafe. Meat can be refrozen if cooked immediately after thawing :)
especially human! or chicken
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Can't remember exactly but I think its got something to do with the low temperatures breaking down the cell walls something like that, I've heard that it very unlikely be successful.
Maybe something like a Jurassic park formula, is the nearest we will get to resurrections of this kind.
ippy
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Why mention the money side then? (twice).
Well, people are - I assume - spending a lot of their money on something that has doubtful scientific pedigree. I think that referring to money in this context is worthwhile. By the way, if I was going to approach this issue from a theological perspective, the money issue would probably have been further down the list of my concerns.
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at this stage in human endeavour I think the medical experiment aspect is of paramount importance in the quest for knowledge.
Walter, is there a case for arguing that medical scientists are more interested in pushing bounds of knowledge than trying to develop existing knowledge - perhaps at a lower level than the more exciting aspects?
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Walter, is there a case for arguing that medical scientists are more interested in pushing bounds of knowledge than trying to develop existing knowledge - perhaps at a lower level than the more exciting aspects?
try that again so I can understand it
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Lets hope there's not a power cut. How insane!!!
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try that again so I can understand it
I'll try to make it easier by giving an example. There are diseases that are extremely prevalent in the developing world which, if resolved/a cure found for could mean that the average life expectancy in such places would rise above the WHO's 50 year-old 'barrier' above which contraception becomes an accepted option. However, pharmaceutical companies and medical scientists seem more interested in the money that can be earned from working on developed world conditions, because the money that they can earn from that is far greater than anything they can earn from treatments for the more common developing nation conditions.
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-38012267
In view of this judgement, I wonder how much the family will be paying for - say - the next 20 years in order to keep this youngster's body cryogenically frozen? Is it really good use of money, and is there really any evidence to show (as opposed to merely suggest) that the revere process can actually work after such a period of time - or longer?
FWIW I don't think that the cryogenically frozen dead can be resusitated. But IMHO what is most important here is that the unfortunate young lady in question fell into her final sleep with at least a glimmer of hope that one day she may wake up again. If it eased her final days, it did some good.
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For all we know, the girl may be watching from above... her body being placed in the freezer and wondering ...'why the heck did I worry so much about my body....I don't need it at all'. :D
BTW...the subject should be 'Cryogenics' not 'Cryonics'...right!?
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Yes you are right, Sririam. I assumed "Cryonics" was an abbreviation.
The case was on the news last night and it was very sad. Then the report moved on to the cryogenics business, explaining the process and showing the big freezers; I wished I hadn't seen and listened to all that, quite honestly, but I did. It really is a big business and, apparently, the first man to be frozen was fifty years ago. There are currently three hundred and something bodies frozen.
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It is plain English and gets pointed out a lot on here.
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argument_from_incredulity
How the same guy who suggests so many brilliant sites can be giving Rationalwiki the thumbs up beats me.
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Yes you are right, Sririam. I assumed "Cryonics" was an abbreviation.
The case was on the news last night and it was very sad. Then the report moved on to the cryogenics business, explaining the process and showing the big freezers; I wished I hadn't seen and listened to all that, quite honestly, but I did. It really is a big business and, apparently, the first man to be frozen was fifty years ago. There are currently three hundred and something bodies frozen.
Reflects on the prevailing culture in many places. What a pity. We really must stop thinking of ourselves as the body. We are spirits who takes on bodies to have experiences.
And it is not just about religious belief. There is significant evidence for this, if only we are able to see it!
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Reflects on the prevailing culture in many places. What a pity. We really must stop thinking of ourselves as the body. We are spirits who takes on bodies to have experiences.
And it is not just about religious belief. There is significant evidence for this, if only we are able to see it!
Yeh right! ::)
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For all we know, the girl may be watching from above... her body being placed in the freezer and wondering ...'why the heck did I worry so much about my body....I don't need it at all'. :D
BTW...the subject should be 'Cryogenics' not 'Cryonics'...right!?
Actually both terms are perfectly acceptable in this context. Cryogenics however has another, more scientifically based meaning.
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Wiki says, cryogenics is the study of the production and behaviour of materials at very low temperatures.
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If it eased her final days, it did some good.
I disagree. for her, her mother and whoever else was involved to have their fears eased is not a good enough reason to perpetrate, and in this case make world-wide news, a lie that there is a possibility of some life following death.
If scientists can come up with some genuine, useful evidence that such freezing and resuscitating of human bodies, especially if this
is on the basis of what I think is most likely to be a selfilsh whim of a patient rather than on recommendation by doctors and researchers, then I might have to say I am wrong, but in the meantime I think I'll stick with a natural revulsion for such a thing.
On a slightly similar, but unconnected note, there is a doctor in this country, I heard on radio yesterday, who says he is ready and able to do a head transplant which although evoking somewhat squeamish feelings, is a positive move to improve someone's life?
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I disagree. for her, her mother and whoever else was involved to have their fears eased is not a good enough reason to perpetrate, and in this case make world-wide news, a lie that there is a possibility of some life following death.
If scientists can come up with some genuine, useful evidence that such freezing and resuscitating of human bodies, especially if this
is on the basis of what I think is most likely to be a selfilsh the whim of a patient rather than on recommendation by doctors and researchers, then I might have to say I am wrong, but in the meantime I think I'll stick with a natural revulsion for such a thing.
On a slightly similar, but unconnected note, there is a doctor in this country, I heard on radio yesterday, who says he is ready and able to do a head transplant which although evoking somewhat squeamish feelings, is a positive move to improve someone's life?
It's not a lie. It's highly unlikely but that doesn't make it a lie. I find your attitude to someone who was dying at the age of 14 completely lacking in empathy.
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Actually both terms are perfectly acceptable in this context. Cryogenics however has another, more scientifically based meaning.
Yeah you're right. In fact, Cryonics is more correct in this context as it deals with preservation of human bodies. Cryogenics is more generally about low temperatures. Sorry!
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It's not a lie. It's highly unlikely but that doesn't make it a lie. I find your attitude to someone who was dying at the age of 14 completely lacking in empathy.
Empathy does not require agreement.
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Empathy does not require agreement.
indeed not, but talking about a 14 year old dying as having a selfish whim isn't just disagreement.
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indeed not, but talking about a 14 year old dying as having a selfish whim isn't just disagreement.
You will, however note that my use of the phrase 'selfish whim' were in a separate paragraph which itself was deliberately couched in general terms.
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You will, however note that my use of the phrase 'selfish whim' were in a separate paragraph which itself was deliberately couched in general terms.
and? You state in that paragraph that 'especially if this
is on the basis of what I think is most likely to be a selfilsh the whim of a patient '. This surely applies to this case as well as your opinion?
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and? You state in that paragraph that 'especially if this
is on the basis of what I think is most likely to be a selfilsh the whim of a patient '. This surely applies to this case as well as your opinion?
That is your interpretation. I could have written two separate posts , drawn a double line between paragraphs, or chosen more specific words, but I prefer to be brief.
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I disagree. for her, her mother and whoever else was involved to have their fears eased is not a good enough reason to perpetrate, and in this case make world-wide news, a lie that there is a possibility of some life following death.
If scientists can come up with some genuine, useful evidence that such freezing and resuscitating of human bodies, especially if this
is on the basis of what I think is most likely to be a selfilsh whim of a patient rather than on recommendation by doctors and researchers, then I might have to say I am wrong, but in the meantime I think I'll stick with a natural revulsion for such a thing.
There is the possibility of some life after death, which is why people donate their organs to those in need. What is in question here is not life as such, but consciousness. What concerns me is your disregard for the feelings of a terminally ill teenager.
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There is the possibility of some life after death, which is why people donate their organs to those in need. What is in question here is not life as such, but consciousness. What concerns me is your disregard for the feelings of a terminally ill teenager.
Your assumption of my 'disregard for the feelings of a teenager', as was NS's, is misplaced.
Organs being used after death and cryonics are quite different questions. If anyone can use any bits of me when I die, I think that would be a very good idea. I think mine will be too old and worn out though.
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Your assumption of my 'disregard for the feelings of a teenager', as was NS's, is misplaced.
Organs being used after death and cryonics are quite different questions. If anyone can use any bits of me when I die, I think that would be a very good idea. I think mine will be too old and worn out though.
Susan, I like you am not bothered by my parting this world long as it's not to early, even then, lot of people like H W D do bother and need some kind of mental comfort blanket; let em have it they're welcome.
Yes I don't think it's a good thing to make up the stories about some other place that can't be known about by anyone, I prefer the odds on truth that when you're dead it's game over, especially when there's absolutely no evidence to the contrary.
And then again so many people are taken in wholesale with this stuff and you'll never shake them from it and I have to admit it would be a kindness to comfort any terminal fellow human being with more or less any comforting words in those circumstances, even though I wouldn't want any of this kind of religious nonsense for myself, other than the kindness.
It's the roots of this religious canker that we should be concentrating on and then these side effects would be sliding away.
ippy
S D, did you notice that I don't like religions that much?
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indeed not, but talking about a 14 year old dying as having a selfish whim isn't just disagreement.
I think this 14 year old girl and her parents have been scammed. Obviously it is their right to spend £37,000 in any way they wish, but I think cryogenics companies offer false hope.
There's also some concern that that the freezing procedure was badly handled in this case.
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It appears the body of this tragic girl hasn't been handled well by the cryonics company. Even if it was possible to bring frozen people back to life in the future, her body may have deteriorated too badly to have any chance of revival!
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That's a very sad business and I think, alongside jeremyp, that her family have been scammed.
Btw, I don't believe for one minute that SuanD did not empathise with a 14 year old girl who was terminally ill, the issue is far wider than that.
I empathise with her, poor little thing, as well as wondering how the idea of cryonics was so frmly planted in the mind of one so young; everyone's heard of cryonics but how many of us have seriously cconsidered it, with all of its implications? However I do not believe any one of us can judge fairly, we're not 14 years old and dying.
All we can do is hope such a case is not brought before the courts again.
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That's a very sad business and I think, alongside jeremyp, that her family have been scammed.
Btw, I don't believe for one minute that SuanD did not empathise with a 14 year old girl who was terminally ill, the issue is far wider than that.
I empathise with her, poor little thing, as well as wondering how the idea of cryonics was so frmly planted in the mind of one so young; everyone's heard of cryonics but how many of us have seriously cconsidered it, with all of its implications? However I do not believe any one of us can judge fairly, we're not 14 years old and dying.
All we can do is hope such a case is not brought before the courts again.
It's unlikely that there will be many more cases like this. In a sense, I think that's why it is precisely not wider than the individual case. It's dependent on a particular set of circumstances. That most of us here would not consider it is not really useful to the specifics. Indeed were a relative of mine want this, I would argue against it with them before their death, but if it was what they wanted when they died, I help it happen.
I don't think I would judge anyone wanting this as doing it on a selfish whim, and I think doing that is precisely a lack of empathy.
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Susan, I like you am not bothered by my parting this world long as it's not to early, even then, lot of people like H W D do bother and need some kind of mental comfort blanket; let em have it they're welcome.
Yes I don't think it's a good thing to make up the stories about some other place that can't be known about by anyone, I prefer the odds on truth that when you're dead it's game over, especially when there's absolutely no evidence to the contrary.
And then again so many people are taken in wholesale with this stuff and you'll never shake them from it and I have to admit it would be a kindness to comfort any terminal fellow human being with more or less any comforting words in those circumstances, even though I wouldn't want any of this kind of religious nonsense for myself, other than the kindness.
It's the roots of this religious canker that we should be concentrating on and then these side effects would be sliding away.
.
ippy
I didn't turn the radio off after the World at One so listened to a programme about the Sunday Assembly; presented by a member of the CofE but in a rational sort of way. I don't know that I would say it's a must listen to, but it was quite interesting
S D, did you notice that I don't like religions that much?
:) :) Yes I did!
[/quote]
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Brownie #64
Well said.
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I didn't turn the radio off after the World at One so listened to a programme about the Sunday Assembly; presented by a member of the CofE but in a rational sort of way. I don't know that I would say it's a must listen to, but it was quite interesting :) :) Yes I did!
Yes Susan I heard the same program, they droped the godless and subtituted secular?
Why can't the godless have something of their own of this kind, why not?
I noted the BBC's ever present never let the non-religious have an unescourted presence on air policy is still in force.
ippy
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... even then, lot of people like H W D do bother and need some kind of mental comfort blanket; let em have it they're welcome.
It sounds more like you need the mental comfort blanket, ippy; a blanket of nothingness. Whilst I think I could possibly name a couple of religious people for whom their faith is little more than a comfort blanket, the vast majority of religious people I know tend to say that, for them, the 'comfort blanket' would be regressing to your stance, whereby they wouldn't be challenged - by other people, by situations that appear in the news on a daily basis, and on their actions and attitudes.
Yes I don't think it's a good thing to make up the stories about some other place that can't be known about by anyone, I prefer the odds on truth that when you're dead it's game over, especially when there's absolutely no evidence to the contrary.
Yet, you do exactly that by assuming - with absolutely no evidence - that there is nothing after one's death. I do like the reference to an 'odds-on truth' that - as mentioned above - has absolutely no evidential support.
And then again so many people are taken in wholesale with this stuff and you'll never shake them from it and I have to admit it would be a kindness to comfort any terminal fellow human being with more or less any comforting words in those circumstances, even though I wouldn't want any of this kind of religious nonsense for myself, other than the kindness.
It's the roots of this religious canker that we should be concentrating on and then these side effects would be sliding away.
I suspect that several positive side effects, such as the high level of voluntary action on social issues, would be missed very soon. It seems that you believe that voluntary work in these extremely important areas is a canker.
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It sounds more like you need the mental comfort blanket, ippy; a blanket of nothingness. Whilst I think I could possibly name a couple of religious people for whom their faith is little more than a comfort blanket, the vast majority of religious people I know tend to say that, for them, the 'comfort blanket' would be regressing to your stance, whereby they wouldn't be challenged - by other people, by situations that appear in the news on a daily basis, and on their actions and attitudes.
Yet, you do exactly that by assuming - with absolutely no evidence - that there is nothing after one's death. I do like the reference to an 'odds-on truth' that - as mentioned above - has absolutely no evidential support.
I suspect that several positive side effects, such as the high level of voluntary action on social issues, would be missed very soon. It seems that you believe that voluntary work in these extremely important areas is a canker.
Hope, I note you're still giving out N P F at full bore again, why can't you see it Hope?
You can't even get your science right?
ippy