Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => Politics & Current Affairs => Topic started by: Nearly Sane on November 22, 2016, 12:20:29 PM
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First of all let's underline what alt right is not. It is not Trump, it is not Farage, it is not all their supporters, it is not a majority of their supporters, it isn't even a significantly large minority of the supporters.
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/21/us/alt-right-salutes-donald-trump.html?smprod=nytcore-iphone&smid=nytcore-iphone-share&_r=0
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/11/richard-spencer-speech-npi/508379/
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First of all let's underline what alt right is not. It is not Trump, it is not Farage, it is not all their supporters, it is not a majority of their supporters, it isn't even a significantly large minority of the supporters.
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/21/us/alt-right-salutes-donald-trump.html?smprod=nytcore-iphone&smid=nytcore-iphone-share&_r=0
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/11/richard-spencer-speech-npi/508379/
what Mr Spencer says seems to be true however um-PC it is
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what Mr Spencer says seems to be true however um-PC it is
what, that Jews aren't really people?
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what, that Jews aren't really people?
I actually laughed out loud at that
Did he really say that, I must have missed it?
however I do not like ANY religious groups and treat them all with equal contempt
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I actually laughed out loud at that
Did he really say that, I must have missed it?
however I do not like ANY religious groups and treat them all with equal contempt
So you think someone using explicitly Nazi terns and Nazi rhetoric is funny?
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actually that's not true
I have a sliding scale of contempt .
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So you think someone using explicitly Nazi terns and Nazi rhetoric is funny?
of course not , I was laughing at how you said it :)
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of course not , I was laughing at how you said it :)
So do you agree with him that Jews aren't people?
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So do you agree with him that Jews aren't people?
FFS am I using a strange language? OF COURSE NOT, is that clear enough?
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FFS am I using a strange language? OF COURSE NOT, is that clear enough?
So when you said 'what Mr Spencer says seems to be true however um-PC it is', you didn't really mean that?
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Dear Sane,
Three questions.
1. Is the world ready for a new Hitler.
2. Does man ever learn from history.
3. Does Walter think Jews are not people. ::)
Gonnagle.
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Dear Sane,
Three questions.
1. Is the world ready for a new Hitler.
2. Does man ever learn from history.
3. Does Walter think Jews are not people. ::)
Gonnagle.
1. We've had genocides since Hitler. Needs only the set of circumstances to trigger.
2. Yes, but the lessons are out of date by being history. Rather like the discussions on the Molecular Evolution thread, analogy and metaphor are problematic and while we might think something looks similar, it is also by definition not necessarily going to follow the same direction. In the 30s with hindsight it might seem that appeasement was the wrong way to go, but in the 30s it looked as if it was to some on the basis of the First World War. I suspect that on levels such as this the lessons that we think we have learned are meaningless.
3. No, I don't think he does. I still don't really know what he agrees with in terms of Spencer and it may be just him trying a little wummery but who knows.
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1. We've had genocides since Hitler. Needs only the set of circumstancesto trigger.
2. Yes, but the lessons are out of date by being history. Rather like the discussions on the Molecular Evolution thread, analogy and metaphor are problematic and while we might think something looks similar, it is also by definition not necessarily going to follow the same direction. In the 30s with hindsight it might seem that appeasement was the wrong way to go, but in the 30s it looked as if it was to some on the basis of the First World War. I suspect that on levels such as this the lessons that we think we have learned are meaningless.
3. No, I don't think he does. I still don't really know what he agrees with in terms of Spencer and it may be just him trying a little wummery but who knows.
NS re No3
you don't need to 'think' I have just TOLD you. IS THAT CLEAR?
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NS re No3
you don't need to 'think' I have just TOLD you. IS THAT CLEAR?
Lots of people have told, or even TOLD, me things, it's still up to me to consider whether I believe them. For instance someone told me they thought 'what Mr Spencer says seems to be true however um-PC it is'. I didn't think that was true so asked them about a specific. I still have no idea what he said that they do think was true.
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Lots of people have told, or even TOLD, me things, it's still up to me to consider whether I believe them. For instance someone told me they thought 'what Mr Spencer says seems to be true however um-PC it is'. I didn't think that was true so asked them about a specific. I still have no idea what he said that they do think was true.
There is no need for you to know , if you were referring to me. I do not require your approval .
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There is no need for you to know , if you were referring to me. I do not require your approval .
Didn't say anything about you requiring my approval. If you are unwilling to explain your position and what you actually do agree with, that's entirely up to you, dear chap.
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Didn't say anything about you requiring my approval. If you are unwilling to explain your position and what you actually do agree with, that's entirely up to you, dear chap.
Very gracious of you I'm sure.
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Points to Trump on his complete condemnation. Just a pity that it didn't happen sooner.
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The alt-right is not neo-nazi. What it does do is give a voice to white working class people. I don't doubt you'll find wankers among their ranks as you will with all political ideologies but they do not define the ideology.
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The alt-right is not neo-nazi. What it does do is give a voice to white working class people. I don't doubt you'll find wankers among their ranks as you will with all political ideologies but they do not define the ideology.
if I were part of a movement where it is stated by some that Jews aren't people, or where people publish memes calling for the killing of Jews, I would either seek to get the movement to disown them, or get out of it quick. Part of the problem, of course, is that alt right is a chimera of the internet age with a loosely aligned group of people, some of whom claim when challenged that it isn't their real views, it's just a form of provocation, which makes them lying dickheads with not enough brains to know the danger they cause in my opinion. If you ever go into the darker parts of the internet where the alt right lurk, you'll find it has little to do with working class but appears to be a group of middle class, early middle age, anti Semitic, anti women, intellectual wannabes who appear to have stuck around the age of 14 with Beavis and Butthead as their idols.
In addition to the Neo Nazi Spencer - hailed by those seen as the face of alt right like Yiannopoulos (who is definitely not your pint of lager, ad_o) as being an intellectual leader of the alt right, we have, of course, Roosh with his charming little dog vomit posts about women, see link below.
http://www.returnofkings.com/100669/what-donald-trumps-victory-means-for-men
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The alt-right is not neo-nazi
aye - and the Pope's not Catholic. ::)
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Damn , does this mean that we're going to have to fight fascism all over again? FFS, my dad spent 6 years of his life doing this, along with many of his generation, and now some idiots are resurrecting it all again. FFF.
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What's wrong with you? , just calm down.
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What's wrong with you? , just calm down.
No, I am not going to fucking calm down. We are half -way to fascism, with twats like Farage, Le Pen and Trump at large. preaching their poison.
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No, I am not going to fucking calm down. We are half -way to fascism, with twats like Farage, Le Pen and Trump at large. preaching their poison.
just tell us what you really think ;)
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just tell us what you really think ;)
If I did that, I would be banned.
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No, I am not going to fucking calm down. We are half -way to fascism, with twats like Farage, Le Pen and Trump at large. preaching their poison.
Then you have an odd idea of fascism because none of the above are anywhere close.
The political revolution that is happening is the work of normal white working class men whom the liberal elite have completely forgotten, being obsessed with gay rights and wiping out our culture by opening our borders to half the Middle-East. The liberal elite is scared and rightly so because their little bubble world is falling and so they counter with cries of "fascist"! Here's hoping Le Pen wins in France, another nail in the coffin of the liberal elite.
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Then you have an odd idea of fascism because none of the above are anywhere close.
The political revolution that is happening is the work of normal white working class men whom the liberal elite have completely forgotten, being obsessed with gay rights and wiping out our culture by opening our borders to half the Middle-East. The liberal elite is scared and rightly so because their little bubble world is falling and so they counter with cries of "fascist"! Here's hoping Le Pen wins in France, another nail in the coffin of the liberal elite.
yep ,I tend to agree with you
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The political revolution that is happening is the work of normal white working class men whom the liberal elite have completely forgotten, being obsessed with gay rights
It doesn't have to be a choice. You can be pro equal rights and address the needs of working people. I'm not going to dignify your post further as I note you highlight "white working class men" almost as if women and black working class men and women don't exist - or perhaps even worse don't matter.
Your post is the whiny fag end of white, male, heterosexist supremacy that just refuses to understand the changes in the real world.
I can't wait to see the business mastermind that is Trump bring back jobs to the USA. He's done so well with his own businesses after all. ::)
PS remember that although Trump will become president due to the arcane system they use - he had considerably less votes than Clinton and it is her more inclusive view that chimes most with the US population.
We should perhaps apply the same system to our EU referendum as by that system we would not be leaving the EU.
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It doesn't have to be a choice. You can be pro equal rights and address the needs of working people. I'm not going to dignify your post further as I note you highlight "white working class men" almost as if women and black working class men and women don't exist - or perhaps even worse don't matter.
Your post is the whiny fag end of white, male, heterosexist supremacy that just refuses to understand the changes in the real world.
I can't wait to see the business mastermind that is Trump bring back jobs to the USA. He's done so well with his own businesses after all. ::)
PS remember that although Trump will become president due to the arcane system they use - he had considerably less votes than Clinton and it is her more inclusive view that chimes most with the US population.
We should perhaps apply the same system to our EU referendum as by that system we would not be leaving the EU.
as far as I can see, WE ARE
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as far as I can see, WE ARE
Well who knows.
Clarity around the matter is in pretty short supply!
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ANY WAY, that's all I'm going to say on the matter
. I don't involve myself in politics but I do like a good laugh watching people running about with wet knickers dissolving into apoplectic puddles of indignation (on all sides). Let the fun continue.
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Dear ad o and Waltz,
Very interesting, the theist and the atheist in agreement.
White working class men!! is that me, I work, I am white, well a sort of pale white and I am a man, result 8)
Is there a club, can I join, is there a badge ( we don't need no stinking badges ) Oh wait! I forgot, normal, no I am definitely not normal, that's a shame, I bet you had plans for a smart uniform, some nice jack boots and a lovely wee black shirt, ya pair of merchant bankers >:( >:(
Ad o, I think baby Jesus wants a word with you :(
Gonnagle.
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ANY WAY, that's all I'm going to say on the matter
. I don't involve myself in politics but I do like a good laugh watching people running about with wet knickers dissolving into apoplectic puddles of indignation (on all sides). Let the fun continue.
Really? That's good to know - you didn't seem like you were having a good laugh when you were the one running about with wet knickers dissolving into apoplectic puddles on this forum. Maybe you have rethought your despair about what is happening in Britain and how you thought people needed to wake up to what is happening and your over-reaction about being blown to pieces by foreigners despite the statistical improbability.
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Dear ad o and Waltz,
Very interesting, the theist and the atheist in agreement.
White working class men!! is that me, I work, I am white, well a sort of pale white and I am a man, result 8)
Is there a club, can I join, is there a badge ( we don't need no stinking badges ) Oh wait! I forgot, normal, no I am definitely not normal, that's a shame, I bet you had plans for a smart uniform, some nice jack boots and a lovely wee black shirt, ya pair of merchant bankers >:( >:(
Ad o, I think baby Jesus wants a word with you :(
Gonnagle.
Hooda thought it eh?
aww, iccle baby jeebus!
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Really? That's good to know - you didn't seem like you were having a good laugh when you were the one running about with wet knickers dissolving into apoplectic puddles on this forum. Maybe you have rethought your despair about what is happening in Britain and how you thought people needed to wake up to what is happening and your over-reaction about being blown to pieces by foreigners despite the statistical improbability.
Nope , still stands .
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Then you have an odd idea of fascism because none of the above are anywhere close.
The political revolution that is happening is the work of normal white working class men whom the liberal elite have completely forgotten, being obsessed with gay rights and wiping out our culture by opening our borders to half the Middle-East. The liberal elite is scared and rightly so because their little bubble world is falling and so they counter with cries of "fascist"! Here's hoping Le Pen wins in France, another nail in the coffin of the liberal elite.
Well, I hope you're right, and I'm wrong. In the 30s, plenty of people sleep-walked towards fascism, and said it didn't matter, or it would be controllable, or that the left would take power next, and so on. In fact, plenty of Jews were saying this, plenty of Communists and Social Democrats were saying it, and many of them ended up in the camps or in exile. These are dangerous times, and many people don't remember, or don't connect.
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People generally seem oblivious to the fact that there are disaffected white, British youth with no religious affiliation who are being radicalised by fascist organisations.
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People generally seem oblivious to the fact that there are disaffected white, British youth with no religious affiliation who are being radicalised by fascist organisations.
I don't think people know how to stop it. The political parties ignore it. There are anti-fascist and anti-racist organizations, but I don't know how much effect they have. I wonder if the battle of Cable St would be repeated today. Sad days. However, in the old saying, don't mourn, organize. Also, I think Scotland is very different.
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Trent wrote:
It doesn't have to be a choice. You can be pro equal rights and address the needs of working people. I'm not going to dignify your post further as I note you highlight "white working class men" almost as if women and black working class men and women don't exist - or perhaps even worse don't matter.
Your post is the whiny fag end of white, male, heterosexist supremacy that just refuses to understand the changes in the real world.
I think this is insightful. A lot of proto-fascists strike a note of the patriarchy's revenge, or rather the white patriarchy. Often anti-gay, misogynist, and of course anti-foreigner. You can see the ramifications in different countries - for example, in the UK, the Labour party was centred on the heavy industries, very male dominated. This has all gone, and Labour has lost its identity, and there is the turn to bigotry by some men, as in the US. I was thinking also of Kinder, Kirche, Kuche, that emphasis by the Nazis on women in the home and the bedroom, too much of a threat to men anywhere else, so the right wing are often scornful of feminism. And yes, the whiny tone is striking, but then they have lost a lot.
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It doesn't have to be a choice. You can be pro equal rights and address the needs of working people. I'm not going to dignify your post further as I note you highlight "white working class men" almost as if women and black working class men and women don't exist - or perhaps even worse don't matter.
Your post is the whiny fag end of white, male, heterosexist supremacy that just refuses to understand the changes in the real world.
False dichotomy! However, that is exactly what has happened to the white working class men. They have been forgotten, trodden as your language clearly demonstrates. It's alright to want to protect your identity, that is unless you're white, European and male, in which case you're worthy of nothing but disdain.
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False dichotomy! However, that is exactly what has happened to the white working class men. They have been forgotten, trodden as your language clearly demonstrates. It's alright to want to protect your identity, that is unless you're white, European and male, in which case you're worthy of nothing but disdain.
I'm not sure what you are trying to say. I am white, European and male. I don't feel that my identity is under threat. You are talking of the white working class male as if it is some kind of homogenous group. They aren't and it isn't.
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Yes, ad-O's analysis seems pretty crude. I don't think you can talk about the white working class or the white European male as homogeneous categories.
My memory is, in any case, that fascism and far-right groups tend to appeal more to middle class people. For example, in Germany many workers voted left, either Social Democrat or Communist, and not Nazi. But this in itself is a generalization, which merits closer scrutiny.
There is also the difference between holding power and not. I mean that far-right groups tend to be populist and anti-elitist, when not in power, and they get their appeal partly from this, but if they achieve power, they are often hierarchical and of course, authoritarian. So you get a different elite.
It would be useful, for example, to look at the appeal of Le Pen to different sections of French society, but it would be also somewhat tedious.
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It doesn't do to make too many generalisations but it appears to me that far right fascist groups have often had an 'elite' hierarchy of upper middle or higher class social status 'leaders' (think Oswald Moseley), who recruit from those who are less polished and educated, vulnerable to being radicalised.
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It doesn't do to make too many generalisations but it appears to me that far right fascist groups have often had an 'elite' hierarchy of upper middle or higher class social status 'leaders' (think Oswald Moseley), who recruit from those who are less polished and educated, vulnerable to being radicalised.
Not sure about that, Brownie. Hitler was hardly upper class, was he? Mussolini's father was a blacksmith.
In relation to right-wing groups (not fascist), I would hardly say that Le Pen, Farage and Trump are posh, really.
There were a number of English aristocrats supporting the Nazis, but also plenty who didn't. Of course, the obvious example are the Mitfords, but they were divided, two of them were friends of Hitler, but one of them was a communist, (Decca?). Their dad hated foreigners and Catholics, so that was a good start in life.
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Well I did say one shouldn't generalise, Wigginhall. You are probably right.
I was thinking mainly about Oswald Moseley. I didn't know anything about Mussolini's background but Hitler's antecedents were of humble origin though his father did quite well, first in the military and then as a customs officer, so I suppose the family were upwardly mobile.
When I've watched TV expose-type documentaries about secret Nazi groups in Britain, the ones at the top seem to be better educated than the rank and file. Don't know about class but they appear reasonably well turned out and articulate.
Stephen Christopher Yaxley-Lennon, regardless of his poor background, is in a class of his own of course :D!
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They do tend to clean up their act, in order to become electable. I think Le Pen expelled her father, as he tended to ramble on that the Nazi death camps were only a detail in the war, or something. And they have become less anti-Semitic, but then they can bang on about Muslims now. There has to be an Other who you can demonize, and Jews are not really appropriate today.
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I agree with all of that though several Jews have written that they 'feel' a rise in anti-semitism.
I wonder who will be the next scapegoat?
I know at one time the EDL recruited and paraded a turban'd Sikh gentleman to make it look as though they weren't racist or anti most religions. At the time all I hoped was that they gave him a decent bung and he was able to return to normal life and blend in as before. Stupid man. It could be his turn next!
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Well, the beauty of it is, that you can have a rotating group of targets. You could see that with Trump's campaign. Muslims are at the top at the moment, with Jews held in reserve, don't forget those Rothschilds! But in parts of Europe, gypsies (Roma) are also good for a kicking.
After that, wow, you are spoiled for choice. Gays, and other perverts, and don't forget women, you can always whip up some enthusiasm for banning abortion, esp. in the US.
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First of all let's underline what alt right is not. It is not Trump, it is not Farage, it is not all their supporters, it is not a majority of their supporters, it isn't even a significantly large minority of the supporters.
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/21/us/alt-right-salutes-donald-trump.html?smprod=nytcore-iphone&smid=nytcore-iphone-share&_r=0
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/11/richard-spencer-speech-npi/508379/
What they are are people still living in the pre civil war America. Not a pretty site!
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If I did that, I would be banned.
You have been banned, this is just a dream......wake up Whiggy!!!!!
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What they are are people still living in the pre civil war America. Not a pretty site!
Well, I've just looked at both sites - nothing wrong with them as far as I could see ...
Oh, I understand now, you don't mean "site" you mean "sight".
I suppose we just have to live with declining standards of literacy. It's the consequence of the growth in texting .....
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Well, the beauty of it is, that you can have a rotating group of targets. You could see that with Trump's campaign. Muslims are at the top at the moment, with Jews held in reserve, don't forget those Rothschilds! But in parts of Europe, gypsies (Roma) are also good for a kicking.
After that, wow, you are spoiled for choice. Gays, and other perverts, and don't forget women, you can always whip up some enthusiasm for banning abortion, esp. in the US.
So, Wiggy, after reading your posts, what is the answer here? The present system has failed and all the criticisms that you point to the Right and growing far Right is true of our present leaders and political parties in some way or other. How would you appease the people who are hurting?
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What they are are people still living in the pre civil war America. Not a pretty site!
No, they don't appear to be doing that to me, this seems a relatively well off, cosmopolitan group rather than fighting the civil war, they are looking for the next war. The alt right are internet and media savvy, though they seem to have bought the Trump rhetoric wholesale, and didn't realise that a 'psychic connection' isn't a real thing.
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Well, I've just looked at both sites - nothing wrong with them as far as I could see ...
Oh, I understand now, you don't mean "site" you mean "sight".
I suppose we just have to live with declining standards of literacy. It's the consequence of the growth in texting .....
That's your contribution to this site is it ? I would say you have a lack of sight and vision in your postings if that is all you can think of to say.
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That's your contribution to this site is it ? I would say you have a lack of sight and vision in your postings if that is all you can think of to say.
Pot and kettle, JK! ::)
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No, they don't appear to be doing that to me, this seems a relatively well off, cosmopolitan group rather than fighting the civil war, they are looking for the next war. The alt right are internet and media savvy, though they seem to have bought the Trump rhetoric wholesale, and didn't realise that a 'psychic connection' isn't a real thing.
I thought they were white supremacists? The clip I saw was definitely that.
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Pot and kettle, JK! ::)
Well, judging by your judgements your judgements aren't worth a pot let lone a kettle. Perhaps a piss pot but that still would be pushing it.
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I thought they were white supremacists? The clip I saw was definitely that.
they are, but amazingly not rednecks
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they are, but amazingly not rednecks
So I was right that they want to wind the clock back to pre-civil war attitudes where the whites ruled and the blacks were third class, if that.
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So I was right that they want to wind the clock back to pre-civil war attitudes where the whites ruled and the blacks were third class, if that.
No
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No
Yes, that is what the white supremacists want.
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Yes, that is what the white supremacists want.
And yes but the alt right seem not to be looking at it the way you do. Are you saying they are lying?
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And yes but the alt right seem not to be looking at it the way you do. Are you saying they are lying?
What are they saying?