Religion and Ethics Forum
Religion and Ethics Discussion => Christian Topic => Topic started by: Sassy on November 28, 2016, 12:25:08 PM
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Another thread this morning reveals how people mistake Christ for God instead of the Son of God.
King James Bible
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
Christ clearly was born of God... Luke 1: 35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
As he had free will he clearly defined the truth when he said:
KJV. Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
So many ignore the actual words of Christ and the disciples because they simply do not want to accept the truth that Christ is the Son of God. At no time does Christ claim the glory as to make himself God not even equal to God. Because he is telling us how he can do what he does.
So often the verses where Christ speaks are taken out of context. John 20:28 is such a verse. When in read in the understanding of Deuteronomy.
I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
God put his words into Christ mouth and so Thomas knew God was with Christ and it was God giving him what to say.
The Word of God has always come to man by the power of Gods Holy Spirit and Jesus said, " My words are SPIRIT and they are LIFE"
So error came in a long time ago. Hence we were told to guard our hearts and minds because God cannot change and he does not change. He is one God. I am sure though written in black and white many will ignore the truth for the manmade version.
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You obviously have never read the Bible and the deeds attributed to god, if you think it can do no wrong!
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Sass,
One could easily say to God something which implied you were tempting him to do something evil. That's not the sense in which James means God cannot be tempted, though. I think he means that if you said something to tempt him, there is no way that he could, in himself (ie if he thought about it for a bit) be enticed to do what you suggested.
In fact, James says in the next verse, "But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed." Here he explains that he is talking about internal enticement, which is what is impossible with God.
So Jesus could be God and still be tempted by an external source, but not enticed internally.
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"Lead us not into temptation", sometimes causes differences of opinion.
My interpretation is "Please help us not to go where there is much temptation", but I've heard others.
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Another thread this morning reveals how people mistake Christ for God instead of the Son of God.
King James Bible
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
Christ clearly was born of God... Luke 1: 35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
And what do you understand by the term 'born of God', Sass? Its perhaps worth pointing out that this passage isn't talking about Christ, but repudiating the belief - held by some - that the offer of forgiveness permits one to carry on sinning 'because God will forgive it all'.
So error came in a long time ago. Hence we were told to guard our hearts and minds because God cannot change and he does not change. He is one God. I am sure though written in black and white many will ignore the truth for the manmade version.
It might be worth checking the context and meaning of passages before posting them here, Sass.
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For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
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For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
The Bible says a lot of things which don't have any meaning in reality.
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Sass,
One could easily say to God something which implied you were tempting him to do something evil.
No! because God cannot do evil. Righteous judgement is something you need to look into.
That's not the sense in which James means God cannot be tempted, though. I think he means that if you said something to tempt him, there is no way that he could, in himself (ie if he thought about it for a bit) be enticed to do what you suggested.
Making no sense Spud. God cannot sin, cannot be tested and cannot be tempted. We are told not to test God and that that means we who have faith should believe what he says we have no reason to test him.
We see that in Christ's answer when the devil tells Christ to throw himself from the building if he is the Son of God as God would send Angels to keep him from harm. But Christ shows that true faith does not require testing God.
Jesus knew being sinless if he really did fall God would do as he said.
We see that later in the Garden of Gethsemane when Jesus tells them his Father can send legions of Angels to save him if he so chose.But in faith we can ask God and receive. Not to test him but because God has clearly told us we can ask anything of him and he will do it in faith.
In fact, James says in the next verse, "But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed." Here he explains that he is talking about internal enticement, which is what is impossible with God.
Again your stretching things because as Christ tells us... It is what comes out of a persons mouth which reveals their heart.
Christ shows that those who know God and are lead by the truth and Spirit live according to the Spirit and not the flesh.
The heart of God is love and if love covers all sins...
King James Bible
And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.
King James Bible
Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins.
No greater love can a person have than to lay down their life for another.
Love the Lord your God with all your heart.
Love your neighbour as yourself.
For God so loved the world....
It is not that we first loved God or each other but that God first love us.
So Jesus could be God and still be tempted by an external source, but not enticed internally.
WRONG... God cannot be tempted and tests no one.
King James Bible
Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
You see the testing of Christ proves he is not God that he is the Son of God. How can God be tempted to sin against himself?
It would be deception if Christ was God made flesh because how can Satan tempt him as he did Adam?
The bible clearly tells us that Christ is a second Adam which means he by his own will could sin.
But Christ shows when he says:- " I am came from heaven not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me."
We know God sent Christ and Peter confirms in Acts 10
Acts 10:38 (KJV)
38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
God with Christ and Christ anointed with power he had none of his own.
So no matter how you try to twist things in your mind the clear truth is that Christ, God the Father and the Holy Spirit are three individual persons and Christ is the Son of God sent by God.
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And what do you understand by the term 'born of God', Sass? Its perhaps worth pointing out that this passage isn't talking about Christ, but repudiating the belief - held by some - that the offer of forgiveness permits one to carry on sinning 'because God will forgive it all'.
It might be worth checking the context and meaning of passages before posting them here, Sass.
Did Christ sin? So what are you possibly going on about. It is you who fails to grasp the fact where their is no sin, there is no forgiveness or stopping sinning required.
Christ was born of God because he did not sin and he was anointed by God with power and the Holy Ghost.
Whilst Christ was without sin he was still born of God. What that passage points out is sinners who are also FORGIVEN and are born of God (forgiven and believe in Christ and received the Holy Ghost) do not carry on sinning.
The point is that people born of God DO NOT SIN. Read the discussion or stop throwing red herrings in till you have.
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For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 9:6King James Version (KJV)
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
In Hebrew please....
You see it is a fact "God will be with him and put his words into his mouth" Like Moses made like a god to Pharaoh we see this in Moses actions...when he by the finger of God
7 And the Lord said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.
2 Thou shalt speak all that I command thee: and Aaron thy brother shall speak unto Pharaoh, that he send the children of Israel out of his land.
The original scroll has no chapters or verses. But we see that Christ had God with him and speaking through him.
Just as Moses did. So we are to heed what Christ tells us because God himself, like with Moses is speaking directly to us.
Read Exodus 7 -10. You will see God did with Christ as he did with Moses and Aaron.
The word clearly says his NAME shall be.
The prayer Christ taught us... Our Father which art in heaven....
What Christ clearly taught.
King James Bible
And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
He clearly put an end to even attempting to call himself Father by others. He also pointed out that the truth is what he teaches.
That we were to listen to his teachings.
You see Christ is the prince of peace and the Everlasting Father, the Mighty God is with him providing the power, the words and the actions. Acts 10:38 just as he was with Moses but Moses and Jesus were not God in person but rather they represented God in their persons making the will of God known by the presence of God and his word with them.
Hence Thomas saying: " My Lord AND my God" Not " My Lord, My God."
For Thomas knew that God was with Christ and Christ spoke with Gods authority and power.
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Isaiah 9:6King James Version (KJV)
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
In Hebrew
The word clearly says his NAME shall be.
No capitals in Hebrew!
כִּי־יֶ֣לֶד יֻלַּד־לָ֗נוּ בֵּ֚ן נִתַּן־לָ֔נוּ וַתְּהִ֥י הַמִּשְׂרָ֖ה עַל־שִׁכְמֹ֑ו וַיִּקְרָ֨א שְׁמֹ֜ו פֶּ֠לֶא יֹועֵץ֙ אֵ֣ל גִּבֹּ֔ור אֲבִיעַ֖ד שַׂר־שָׁלֹֽום׃
Shem ;)
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God is the only person who cannot sin or be tempted and tested to do so
So what was all that stuff about Jesus successfully resisting temptation by the devil in the wilderness then?
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According to non-Trinitarians, it shows that Jesus is not God.
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I reckon the only 'gods' are humans as we are the creators of all deities, imo.
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WRONG... God cannot be tempted and tests no one.
Please see the following explanation, which points to Deuteronomy 6:16 and Malachi 3:15 in which Israel tempts God:
https://answersingenesis.org/who-is-god/god-is-good/can-god-be-tempted/
Notice: "it is important to understand the difference between internal enticement and external enticement."
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Did Christ sin? So what are you possibly going on about. It is you who fails to grasp the fact where their is no sin, there is no forgiveness or stopping sinning required.
Sorry, Sass, the context of the passage from 1 John 3 that you have referenced is that of the author addressing humanity. The section starts in 1 John 3 verse 8 with He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. (AKJV)
The passage is not referring to Christ's sinlessness in any way, but to the conseqences of sin for human beings, and Christ's redeeming grace. Incidentally, temptation isn't in and of itself a sin; after all, Christ was tempted by Satan in the desert. The sin is giving in to temptation.
Christ was born of God because he did not sin and he was anointed by God with power and the Holy Ghost.
Whilst Christ was without sin he was still born of God. What that passage points out is sinners who are also FORGIVEN and are born of God (forgiven and believe in Christ and received the Holy Ghost) do not carry on sinning.
But the 'He' at the start of verse 8 doesn't refer to Christ - it refers to humanity - some translations use 'The one ...'; others say some along these lines 'Those who make a practice of sin ... '.
The point is that people born of God DO NOT SIN. Read the discussion or stop throwing red herrings in till you have.
What red herring have I thrown in? The paragraph I've quoted here is simply pointing exactly what I have said already - 'people born of God'. The context isn't referring to Christ, because he is the answer to the problem, not part of it.
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No capitals in Hebrew!
כִּי־יֶ֣לֶד יֻלַּד־לָ֗נוּ בֵּ֚ן נִתַּן־לָ֔נוּ וַתְּהִ֥י הַמִּשְׂרָ֖ה עַל־שִׁכְמֹ֑ו וַיִּקְרָ֨א שְׁמֹ֜ו פֶּ֠לֶא יֹועֵץ֙ אֵ֣ל גִּבֹּ֔ור אֲבִיעַ֖ד שַׂר־שָׁלֹֽום׃
Shem ;)
No language barrier in the Spirit.
Christ being called the Son of God....
Luke 1:38 is a direct command from God through the Angel.
Do we heed or ignore it?
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So what was all that stuff about Jesus successfully resisting temptation by the devil in the wilderness then?
Jesus is the Son of God. DOH. Lol.
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Jesus is the Son of God. DOH. Lol.
An assertion with no evidence to support it.
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I reckon the only 'gods' are humans as we are the creators of all deities, imo.
An assertion with no evidence to support it.
Evidence in support of these oft-repeated claims, please, Floo. (I've made this request on innumerable occasions in the past - both here and on other discussion boards - and never have you provided any).
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Evidence in support of these oft-repeated claims, please, Floo. (I've made this request on innumerable occasions in the past - both here and on other discussion boards - and never have you provided any).
Hope when have you ever backed up your claims with any verifiable evidence? The answer is NEVER. As I have asked many times, if the Biblical god exist why does it play silly beggars and not make its existence clear to all in a way which no one can deny?
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God is the only person who cannot sin or be tempted and tested to do so.
And can never be contacted.
ippy
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God is the only person who cannot sin or be tempted and tested to do so.
And can never be contacted.
ippy
How convenient!
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As I have asked many times, if the Biblical god exist why does it play silly beggars and not make its existence clear to all in a way which no one can deny?
You, for one tend not to like the Biblical god when His existence was clear to all in a way which no one can deny
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You, for one tend not to like the Biblical god when His existence was clear to all in a way which no one can deny
God's existence has never been clear to ALL, that is why there are unbelievers! ::)
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You, for one tend not to like the Biblical god when His existence was clear to all in a way which no one can deny
Did you put that in italics just to draw attention to it being mince?
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As I have asked many times, if the Biblical god exist why does it play silly beggars and not make its existence clear to all in a way which no one can deny?
You, for one tend not to like the Biblical god when His existence was clear to all in a way which no one can deny
God's existence has never been clear to ALL, that is why there are unbelievers! ::)
Eh?
You mentioned the Biblical god. That'll be the God that's mentioned in the Bible...right?
Are there any parts in the Old Testament where belief in the God (mentioned in the Old Testament) were not necessary? (clue: e.g. the Israelites?)
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I agree with you, Sword, that God was extremely evident to those living in Biblical times.
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I agree with you, Sword, that God was extremely evident to those living in Biblical times.
in what way do you justify this as fact?
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Eh?
You mentioned the Biblical god. That'll be the God that's mentioned in the Bible...right?
Are there any parts in the Old Testament where belief in the God (mentioned in the Old Testament) were not necessary? (clue: e.g. the Israelites?)
Just because something is believed to exist doesn't mean it does, unless you can prove it, which you can't where the Biblical god is concerned.
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Just because something is believed to exist doesn't mean it does, unless you can prove it, which you can't where the Biblical god is concerned.
Oddly enough, Floo, people can prove the existence of God, but only by means that do not use naturalistic methods, suggesting that naturalistic methods of proof aren't the sole form of proof.
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Oddly enough, Floo, people can prove the existence of God, but only by means that do not use naturalistic methods, suggesting that naturalistic methods of proof aren't the sole form of proof.
what are these methods?
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what are these methods?
Experience and observation, to name but 2.
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God's existen
I'm not an unbeliever Floo, I've never seen any sensible reason given nor any viable evidence that could support such an unlikely thing as a god or even think that there's any such thing as a god or gods, so why take up or be bothered by all of that nonsense?
ippy
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Experience and observation, to name but 2.
My local shaman says that those guide her in her views about sacred animals. She will be pleased when I tell her that Christians validate her views.
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Experience and observation, to name but 2.
They are naturalistic
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Oddly enough, Floo, people can prove the existence of God, but only by means that do not use naturalistic methods, suggesting that naturalistic methods of proof aren't the sole form of proof.
Of course they are the sole form of realistic proof, mere belief is NOT evidence
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Oddly enough, Floo, people can prove the existence of God, but only by means that do not use naturalistic methods, suggesting that naturalistic methods of proof aren't the sole form of proof.
Then, since your claim is so precise, you'll have no trouble setting out these methods for us all to review: if they are sufficient to 'prove' God then surely it is your responsibility to enlighten us.
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#28
I agree with you, Sword, that God was extremely evident to those living in Biblical times.
in what way do you justify this as fact?
No-one's trying to justify anything as fact Nearly Sane. By Floo mentioning the biblical god, so the detail in the Bible can be used.
Just because something is believed to exist doesn't mean it does, unless you can prove it, which you can't where the Biblical god is concerned.
But your question was this:
As I have asked many times, if the Biblical god exist why does it play silly beggars and not make its existence clear to all in a way which no one can deny?
So I was just using a biblical situation where no belief was necessary for the biblical God, to see if that would be a situation you would prefer, were it to be the case (i.e. a hypothetical one). If such a situation did exist, no belief would be necessary.
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#28No-one's trying to justify anything as fact Nearly Sane. By Floo mentioning the biblical god, so the detail in the Bible can be used.
But your question was this:So I was just using a biblical situation where no belief was necessary for the biblical God, to see if that would be a situation you would prefer, were it to be the case (i.e. a hypothetical one). If such a situation did exist, no belief would be necessary.
Belief shouldn't be necessary!
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Experience and observation, to name but 2.
These are both naturalistic.
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Belief shouldn't be necessary!
Would you prefer then a situation where you had no choice and just had to do whatever you were told (e.g. the Israelites from Exodus onwards, where God ruled over them until He allowed them to have a king; again speaking from the biblical perspective about the biblical God)
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But I don't have any choice in my beliefs. I don't control them.
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Would you prefer then a situation where you had no choice and just had to do whatever you were told (e.g. the Israelites from Exodus onwards, where God ruled over them until He allowed them to have a king; again speaking from the biblical perspective about the biblical God)
You can't choose what you believe: for example, try choosing to believe that Swindon is a suburb of Lisbon.
In addition, you seem to be referring to compliance.
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You can't choose what you believe: for example, try choosing to believe that Swindon is a suburb of Lisbon.
In addition, you seem to be referring to compliance.
I'd disagree, Gordon. Your example of Swindon and Lisbon is a very different animal to deciding what is right and what is wrong; what is good for society and what isn't. The very fact that you drop to the quality of example as you do here suggests a weakness in your argument. A better example along your line of argument would be 'is Baruca a suburb of Lisbon?'
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Surely that's the very nature of BELIEF in that one can't prove it as it's a belief & not a fact.
So I COULD believe that Swindon is a suburb of Lisbon if I so wish.
Nick
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For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Or.... as the Septuagint says:
Isaiah.9:5 [i.e.9:6] ὅτι παιδίον ἐγεννήθη ἡμῖν υἱὸς καὶ ἐδόθη ἡμῖν οὗ ἡ ἀρχὴ ἐγενήθη ἐπὶ τοῦ ὤμου αὐτοῦ καὶ καλεῖται τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ μεγάλης βουλῆς ἄγγελος ἐγὼ γὰρ ἄξω εἰρήνην ἐπὶ τοὺς ἄρχοντας εἰρήνην καὶ ὑγίειαν αὐτῷ
Which is traditionally translated as: "Because a child was born for us, a son also given to us, whose sovereignty was upon his shoulder; and he shall be named Messenger of Great Counsel, for I will bring peace upon the rulers, peace and health to him."
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I'd disagree, Gordon. Your example of Swindon and Lisbon is a very different animal to deciding what is right and what is wrong; what is good for society and what isn't. The very fact that you drop to the quality of example as you do here suggests a weakness in your argument. A better example along your line of argument would be 'is Baruca a suburb of Lisbon?'
What does the 'drop to the quality of example' mean? Why is an example some drop in quality?
BTW want to address the issue that experience and observation are naturalistic?
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I'd disagree, Gordon. Your example of Swindon and Lisbon is a very different animal to deciding what is right and what is wrong; what is good for society and what isn't.
As usual you miss the point. The example was simply to point out the difficulty of believing something you know to be factually incorrect. That you extrapolate from this factual example to 'right' and 'wrong' is, of course, utterly ridiculous and seriously muddled thinking on your part.
The very fact that you drop to the quality of example as you do here suggests a weakness in your argument.
Further evidence that you struggle to read for comprehension - the example I used was factual and was chosen to illustrate a particular point so your notion that this a 'drop to the quality' (whatever this means) is just your muddled thinking once again in seemingly conflating facts with subjective opinions.
A better example along your line of argument would be 'is Baruca a suburb of Lisbon?'
Don't be silly!
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I agree with you, Sword, that God was extremely evident to those living in Biblical times.
Believing in Jesus Christ means believing in a God who is loving and caring towards those who follow his loving, caring laws towards our Deity and towards our neighbours.
Anyone who is watching world events must realise that their are people who live among us who have the appearance of being nice...even God fearing...but are in fact wolves in sheep clothing. These are the war-mongers who are seeking the downfall of everyone but their own kind.
The only positive laws that conflict with these evil doers and expose them are the righteous laws of Jesus...and the only person doing anything positive about these evil beings is Almighty God, through his son Jesus Christ...and the only hope we've got for beating these oppressors who support mass slaughter, mass starvation, and mass destruction is by following Jesus accurately and in doing so showing evil everyone isn't fooled and especially Almighty God and Jesus Christ are not fooled and who offer us all an escape route from the impending danger that will have the last say in these matters.
Sinners who refuse to repent will see this God as a despicable God, full of nastiness and sin but those who have suffered oppression, over many years, will see him as their saviour...and their sins will be considered less sinful.
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NM: ...those who have suffered oppression, over many years, will see him as their saviour...and their sins will be considered less sinful.
Forgive me for taking that bit out of the context of your post, Nicholas, but something I have always believed is that God will be merciful to sinners who have been oppressed for most of their lives, they have suffered so much he wouldn't be so unfair as to make them suffer more. He'll judge each one of us as individuals, taking all our circumstances into account. The bar is set higher for those who have great advantages.
So - in a roundabout way I am agreeing with you :), at least with that bit. I will have to read the post again to fully understand the rest of it.
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NM: ...those who have suffered oppression, over many years, will see him as their saviour...and their sins will be considered less sinful.
Forgive me for taking that bit out of the context of your post, Nicholas, but something I have always believed is that God will be merciful to sinners who have been oppressed for most of their lives, they have suffered so much he wouldn't be so unfair as to make them suffer more. He'll judge each one of us as individuals, taking all our circumstances into account. The bar is set higher for those who have great advantages.
So - in a roundabout way I am agreeing with you :), at least with that bit. I will have to read the post again to fully understand the rest of it.
As I understand it Brownie we must each have a measure of righteousness to be saved. This is judging us individually and is also showing Jesus a willingness to be goverened by righteous laws. No one will be considered suitable if they make no effort before hand...excluding the innocent who already have a healthier outlook according to righteous decree.
Actually I was just having a little rant with a friend when I posted to you Brownie...nothing personal to you.
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As I understand it Brownie we must each have a measure of righteousness to be saved. This is judging us individually and is also showing Jesus a willingness to be goverened by righteous laws. No one will be considered suitable if they make no effort before hand...excluding the innocent who already have a healthier outlook according to righteous decree.
Actually I was just having a little rant with a friend when I posted to you Brownie...nothing personal to you.
LESS SINFUL? The wages of sin is death.
How do you lessen the wages?
Sorry NM but sin is sin. In the NT there is a part on prayer and praying for the sins of others.
King James Bible
If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
People wrongly take this to mean only some sin leads to death.
But the OT shows that some sins lead to instant death in this life, that people caught in adultery etc. We see such an incident when Jesus speaks to those about to stone a woman but not the man caught committing adultery.
As Jesus says: " Let he who is amongst you without sin cast the first stone."
There is no lesser sins, but rather sin which was instantly punishable by death. Those who picked up stones to kill the woman dropped them one by one starting with the older ones first.
The longer they had lived the more sin they would have committed.
Sin is sin, but some sin lead to being put to death. Jesus said: " If you break one commandment you break them all"
There is no lesser or greater sin. But there is sins which brought instant death and were considered serious.
Paul said: I am the righteousness of God through Christ Jesus.
God : Abraham believed what God said about Issac his son.
And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
When we believe what God has said about Jesus Christ it counted as righteousness towards us.
How did you reach the conclusion that some sins can be lessened. All sins can be forgiven except blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.
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LESS SINFUL? The wages of sin is death.
How do you lessen the wages?
Sorry NM but sin is sin. In the NT there is a part on prayer and praying for the sins of others.
King James Bible
If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
People wrongly take this to mean only some sin leads to death.
But the OT shows that some sins lead to instant death in this life, that people caught in adultery etc. We see such an incident when Jesus speaks to those about to stone a woman but not the man caught committing adultery.
As Jesus says: " Let he who is amongst you without sin cast the first stone."
There is no lesser sins, but rather sin which was instantly punishable by death. Those who picked up stones to kill the woman dropped them one by one starting with the older ones first.
The longer they had lived the more sin they would have committed.
Sin is sin, but some sin lead to being put to death. Jesus said: " If you break one commandment you break them all"
There is no lesser or greater sin. But there is sins which brought instant death and were considered serious.
Paul said: I am the righteousness of God through Christ Jesus.
God : Abraham believed what God said about Issac his son.
And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
When we believe what God has said about Jesus Christ it counted as righteousness towards us.
How did you reach the conclusion that some sins can be lessened. All sins can be forgiven except blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.
When we walk through life being calm and collected we are being a little more righteous than those screaming and shouting at football matches and pop stars. One lot are sinning less than the other especially because of all that spiritual/electrical/emotional/genetic waste. But if those who are calm and collected are such because they have contrived all that emotional waste for their own advantage the opposite is true.
Genetic waste leads to genetic distress...hysteria within the living cells. Some will find it easier to soothe and calm their genetic distress, easier than others and I suggest they start asap because when Wormwood strikes only those with strong spiritual/electrical/emotional/genetic properties will be able to call themselves as working out their sinful nature...and everlasting life demands that we do....according to righteousness anyway...the same righteousness that Jesus taught.
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NM should write fairy tales, he has such a vivid imagination they could be best sellers. ;D
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Jesus is the Son of God. DOH. Lol.
So is Jesus God or not?
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I believe he is, so does Anchor, Alan, Ad_o, Hope, others.
Nicholas and Sassy (to whom your post was addressed), hopefully won't mind me saying, believe he isn't God.
Both opinions are backed up by Biblical passages.
What does it matter? It will all 'come out in the wash'. There are far more important issues. Imho.
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I believe he is, so does Anchor, Alan, Ad_o, Hope, others.
Nicholas and Sassy (to whom your post was addressed), hopefully won't mind me saying, believe he isn't God.
Both opinions are backed up by Biblical passages.
What does it matter? It will all 'come out in the wash'. There are far more important issues. Imho.
I agree there are far more important issues facing our world than those to do with mere matters of faith.
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I was meaning that particular issue which appears to be a stumbling block for some Christians, something I do not really understand but I've read all the posts with interest.
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What does it matter?
Sassy claims that God is the only person who cannot be tempted by sin. If this is the case and Jesus is not God then the gospel story about the devil failing to tempt him must be false. Sassy has a dilemma: either Jesus is God, the title of her thread is false or the gospel is false.
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Sassy claims that God is the only person who cannot be tempted by sin. If this is the case and Jesus is not God then the gospel story about the devil failing to tempt him must be false. Sassy has a dilemma: either Jesus is God, the title of her thread is false or the gospel is false.
I have no doubt Sass with have an explanation! ;D
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I don't see it like that, jeremy. The devil failed to tempt Jesus but that doesn't mean Jesus was incapable of being tempted. He was human, experienced emotion like others - well illustrated in Gethsemane - but was strengthened and made the right choices (or what Christians consider to be the right ones).
One could argue, as I believe Jesus is God, that I am wrong because I believe he could have been tempted. However, to me, his strength and not allowing temptation to sway him, is far more important.
I certainly do not believe God the Father can be tempted but he sent his son into the world as a full human being not one with bits missing.
These are differences of opinion/interpretation, the like of which theologians have pondered and argued for aeons. So we continue :D.
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Sassy claims that God is the only person who cannot be tempted by sin. If this is the case and Jesus is not God then the gospel story about the devil failing to tempt him must be false. Sassy has a dilemma: either Jesus is God, the title of her thread is false or the gospel is false.
You got that all wrong didn't you?
If Jesus was fully human with the nature of God, then he can sin and he can be tempted and tested. But if human then the devil did tempt him if not God. So you need to re-think because being tested makes Christ fully human and the gospel true. But you have to remember that God cannot be tempted to sin, he cannot be tested for no higher power to test him.
Even Satan required Gods permission to test Job. Why would Satan say to Jesus.
6And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
You see Satan is referring to God given his Angels charge concerning Christ.
It is clear that Jesus is the Son of God and God is the Father.
Why would he say " No one, nor the angels, only God knows the day of my return."
God knows ALL things. Jesus Christ did not know the day of his return so how could he be God?
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Believing in Jesus Christ means believing in a God who is loving and caring towards those who follow his loving, caring laws towards our Deity and towards our neighbours.
Anyone who is watching world events must realise that their are people who live among us who have the appearance of being nice...even God fearing...but are in fact wolves in sheep clothing. These are the war-mongers who are seeking the downfall of everyone but their own kind.
The only positive laws that conflict with these evil doers and expose them are the righteous laws of Jesus...and the only person doing anything positive about these evil beings is Almighty God, through his son Jesus Christ...and the only hope we've got for beating these oppressors who support mass slaughter, mass starvation, and mass destruction is by following Jesus accurately and in doing so showing evil everyone isn't fooled and especially Almighty God and Jesus Christ are not fooled and who offer us all an escape route from the impending danger that will have the last say in these matters.
Sinners who refuse to repent will see this God as a despicable God, full of nastiness and sin but those who have suffered oppression, over many years, will see him as their saviour...and their sins will be considered less sinful.
Hi there Nick, I note you have said in this post of yours as follows: "Believing in Jesus Christ means believing in a God who is loving and caring towards those who follow his loving, caring laws towards our Deity and towards our neighbours".
A very nice sentiment but the usual problem remains that you haven't yet established that this Jesus bloke you're always banging on about was actually the son of this god of yours, or in fact whether this god of yours does in fact exist, we've yet to see any verifiable evidence that these things did and do actually exist, you write as though they must exist and keep trying to use the bible to prove the bible is a factual book even though you must realise this is a borderline, need to get some help, argument.
Where is this verifiable evidence of the existence of this god you speak about, you haven't come up with anything realistic yet; only meaningless interminable sermons?
ippy
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I don't see it like that, jeremy. The devil failed to tempt Jesus but that doesn't mean Jesus was incapable of being tempted.
weasel words. The devil tried to tempt Jesus and failed. If the devil can't tempt Jesus, who can?
He was human, experienced emotion like others - well illustrated in Gethsemane
I agree he was human, but the Gethsemane story must be fiction.
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I am not saying anything intentionally ambiguous or misleading, jeremy, it is the conclusion I came to when I thought about it - for the first time! Must admit, before this thread I'd never thought about whether or not Jesus could be tempted, the subject just didn't come up. So I tried to work it out for myself but I'm far from infallible so could be wrong.
Regarding Gethsemane, it has never occurred to me the story is fiction. It's one thing that is quite real to me.
When I used to go to church we had a service on the Thursday evening before Good Friday followed by a vigil (many churches do the same), the idea being that we stayed awake with Jesus; we meditated on the story of Gethsemane, I could picture it in my mind, almost felt some of the atmosphere, and it was very moving.
Still I understand none of that means anything at all to a non-believer.
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I am not saying anything intentionally ambiguous or misleading, jeremy, it is the conclusion I came to when I thought about it - for the first time! Must admit, before this thread I'd never thought about whether or not Jesus could be tempted, the subject just didn't come up. So I tried to work it out for myself but I'm far from infallible so could be wrong.
Regarding Gethsemane, it has never occurred to me the story is fiction. It's one thing that is quite real to me.
When I used to go to church we had a service on the Thursday evening before Good Friday followed by a vigil (many churches do the same), the idea being that we stayed awake with Jesus; we meditated on the story of Gethsemane, I could picture it in my mind, almost felt some of the atmosphere, and it was very moving.
J
Still I understand none of that means anything at all to a non-believer.
Isn't it more important to establish the veracity of all biblical claims before you then go on to debate anything like the subject of this thread?
ippy
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The thread wasn't started for that purpose, Ippy, but another thread could be started to discuss whether or not Biblical stories have any veracity. You could do that, both are appropriate on the Christian topic.
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I am not saying anything intentionally ambiguous or misleading, jeremy, it is the conclusion I came to when I thought about it - for the first time! Must admit, before this thread I'd never thought about whether or not Jesus could be tempted, the subject just didn't come up. So I tried to work it out for myself but I'm far from infallible so could be wrong.
This isn't about your beliefs. Presumably, as a mainstream Christian, you believe God and Jesus are one in some sense. Therefore, my argument does not work as far as you are concerned because one of its premises is that Jesus and God are separate entities.
Regarding Gethsemane, it has never occurred to me the story is fiction.
Have you never asked yourself who was there to report it?
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Yes I have, jeremy, of course, but I now speak as one who has faith and I feel certain it happened. However I have no evidence nor do I expect others to believe the same, so I don't preach.
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The thread wasn't started for that purpose, Ippy, but another thread could be started to discuss whether or not Biblical stories have any veracity. You could do that, both are appropriate on the Christian topic.
My post 66 plus, 'on any thread''?
ippy
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I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
A useful comparison of Jesus and Moses can be found in Hebrews 3:
1Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, Christ Jesus,
2who was faithful to Him who appointed Him, as Moses also was faithful in all His house.
3For this One has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as He who built the house has more honor than the house. 4For every house is built by someone, but He who built all things is God.
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4For every house is built by someone, but He who built all things is God.
I think we would be suing god if it had built our house, judging by god's creation screw ups, it would be a cowboy job! ;D
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A useful comparison of Jesus and Moses can be found in Hebrews 3:
1Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, Christ Jesus,
2who was faithful to Him who appointed Him, as Moses also was faithful in all His house.
3For this One has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as He who built the house has more honor than the house. 4For every house is built by someone, but He who built all things is God.
Do you feel you have a point Corrie?
You see Paul warns not to listen to anyone not even himself, if you cannot find what they teach in the OT.
" In my FATHERS HOUSE there are many mansions and I go and prepare a place for you"
Regardless of the builders " But the builders rejected the most important stone" So you appear to compare the building of the faith to something said about houses having a builder and God being the built all things. But Moses or Christ having GLORY does not mean they are God but as we see Acts 7. 55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
In the same passage it is written:35 This Moses whom they refused, saying, Who made thee a ruler and a judge? the same did God send to be a ruler and a deliverer by the hand of the angel which appeared to him in the bush.
Both deliverers and one marking that which was to be the final deliverer.
I hope you find what you are looking for the truth that shows both Moses and Christ Prophets but Christ an Holy thing like Adam born by God speaking them into being and Christ being the Son of God.
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Do you feel you have a point Corrie?
You see Paul warns not to listen to anyone not even himself, if you cannot find what they teach in the OT.
Not in my Bible he doesn't!
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Not in my Bible he doesn't!
Ah, but he does in the example of the Beareans, they searched the scriptures to see if what he said was true.
11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
Why else would this be in Acts 17:11.
How else could they preach the words of Christ and the scriptures. "Man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God."
So why would it mention in Acts 17:11 that these people were more noble because they searched the scriptures daily to check whether what Paul taught was true?
Or is Paul not teaching us that we should do as the noble Bereans do and search the scriptures to check if what is being preached is in line with the word of God. How can anyone obey Christ and live by every word of God if they don't know what it says?
It is a clear directive to search scripture to check if what Paul was saying was true.
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Ah, but he does in the example of the Beareans, they searched the scriptures to see if what he said was true.
11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
Why else would this be in Acts 17:11.
How else could they preach the words of Christ and the scriptures. "Man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God."
So why would it mention in Acts 17:11 that these people were more noble because they searched the scriptures daily to check whether what Paul taught was true?
Or is Paul not teaching us that we should do as the noble Bereans do and search the scriptures to check if what is being preached is in line with the word of God. How can anyone obey Christ and live by every word of God if they don't know what it says?
It is a clear directive to search scripture to check if what Paul was saying was true.
That's not anything like an explicit command from Paul. And if you don't mind me saying, it's quite a stretch to use this as a basis for rejecting any NT content which does not support your Christology.
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That's not anything like an explicit command from Paul. And if you don't mind me saying, it's quite a stretch to use this as a basis for rejecting any NT content which does not support your Christology.
Actually, it is less of a stretch than you using scripture in OT to try and support your claim that Jesus is God rather than the Son of God.
You see it is a fact anything taught has to be supported by OT for Christ and the OT definitely teaches we are to live by every word of God.
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Actually, it is less of a stretch than you using scripture in OT to try and support your claim that Jesus is God rather than the Son of God.
You see it is a fact anything taught has to be supported by OT for Christ and the OT definitely teaches we are to live by every word of God.
We would really be up the creek without a paddle if we lived by every word attributed to the god, which might not exist.
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Floo, your post made me think that many are half up the creek with only one paddle :D.
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Floo, your post made me think that many are half up the creek with only one paddle :D.
Or no paddle at all! ;D
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Even worse, no boat.
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No Paddle ! No Boat !
Good job I'm an atheist and can swim.
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Actually, it is less of a stretch than you using scripture in OT to try and support your claim that Jesus is God rather than the Son of God.
You see it is a fact anything taught has to be supported by OT for Christ and the OT definitely teaches we are to live by every word of God.
Sass,
Do you actually think the claim is that "Jesus is God rather than the Son of God"?
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Sass,
Do you actually think the claim is that "Jesus is God rather than the Son of God"?
I know there was a reason why God sent his Angel and told Mary that Jesus is to be called."The Son of God". Nowhere is it claimed that Jesus was God but rather God was with him.
Acts 10:38. (KJV)
38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
John 17:3King James Version (KJV)
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
What Jesus told us is that eternal life is knowing the only true God and Jesus Christ whom God sent.
Do you think God need to pray to himself?
Jesus is the Son of God because God said he was. But eternal life means knowing them both.
Somehow along the way some taught false things. The Roman Catholic Church are the worst for trying to put manmade teachings in place of Gods so they have power of man.
But the true body and church of Christ receive power from God through the Holy Spirit and has no need to be taught by man.
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Sass,
Do you actually think the claim is that "Jesus is God rather than the Son of God"?
IKR
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I know there was a reason why God sent his Angel and told Mary that Jesus is to be called."The Son of God". Nowhere is it claimed that Jesus was God but rather God was with him.
Acts 10:38. (KJV)
38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
John 17:3King James Version (KJV)
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
What Jesus told us is that eternal life is knowing the only true God and Jesus Christ whom God sent.
Do you think God need to pray to himself?
Jesus is the Son of God because God said he was. But eternal life means knowing them both.
Somehow along the way some taught false things. The Roman Catholic Church are the worst for trying to put manmade teachings in place of Gods so they have power of man.
But the true body and church of Christ receive power from God through the Holy Spirit and has no need to be taught by man.
Talking of His anointing;
Hebrews
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
Psalm 45
Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre. 7Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
Did Paul get this wrong?
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IKR
I had to look that up!
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Me too :D.
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I know there was a reason why God sent his Angel and told Mary that Jesus is to be called."The Son of God". Nowhere is it claimed that Jesus was God but rather God was with him.
Acts 10:38. (KJV)
38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
John 17:3King James Version (KJV)
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
What Jesus told us is that eternal life is knowing the only true God and Jesus Christ whom God sent.
Do you think God need to pray to himself?
Jesus is the Son of God because God said he was. But eternal life means knowing them both.
Somehow along the way some taught false things. The Roman Catholic Church are the worst for trying to put manmade teachings in place of Gods so they have power of man.
But the true body and church of Christ receive power from God through the Holy Spirit and has no need to be taught by man.
My point was that 2corrie believes that Jesus is the Son of God. The reason he is also said to be God is that he existed before he was born as a man, according to passages in John's gospel, for example. He is "God" in the same sense that the Holy Spirit is "God": the Spirit is God's breath, and the Son is God's word.
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Talking of His anointing;
Hebrews
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Th SON saith... Thy Throne, O God... So the Son is saying to God?
9Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
God anointed who with the oil of Gladness...
Psalm 45
Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre. 7Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
Did Paul get this wrong?
Did Paul get what wrong?
Paul said,King James Bible
And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
God put all things under Christ and it is clear that Paul is teaching that Jesus will also become subject unto God again.
You see you really do not know what you think you know.
God is God and Jesus is the Son of God. To be a son you must do as your Father does.
King James Bible
They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
So clearly Jesus is teaching that those who belong to God do as their father God does.
John 8:44-45King James Version (KJV)
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Jesus therefore did as his Father God did, and he was a true Son of God.
It is important to adhere to the Prophets and the teachings of Christ. It is on Christs teachings and commandments that all the teachings of the Prophets and Law rests.
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Th SON saith... Thy Throne, O God... So the Son is saying to God?
I have to wonder if you are being deliberately obtuse here ?
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18For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
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18For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
Equal... how can one be equal?
You refuse to accept the blatantly obvious.
That in making himself equal he could not be one could he?
Jesus equal? Without sin and doing that which God wants.
You can twist the bible many ways but if you read Deuteronomy 18:20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.
Jesus die because he had not spoken words from God or because he was the Messiah the Son of God?
You see Jesus Called God his Father because as he said:
John 17:3
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Who sent Jesus? Who is the Only true God Jesus is talking to?
Not obtuse at all just stating the blatantly obvious for which you have no answer because you cannot and will not listen to Christ over man made teachings.
Do you know that is what keeps the Jews from believing he is the Messiah?
They knew the Messiah would be a man and a Prophet.
Look at what the NT books by John teaches.
1 John 4:3 World English
and every spirit who doesn’t confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God, and this is the spirit of the antichrist, of whom you have heard that it comes. Now it is in the world already.
2 John 1:7 World English
For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who don’t confess that Jesus Christ came in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the Antichrist.
Jesus came in the flesh...
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Gods are subservient to humans as they are their creations, not the other way around, imo.
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Gods are subservient to humans as they are their creations, not the other way around, imo.
The wonderful thing about Almighty God is that he lives by his own righteous code...you know the one...the one that Jesus Christ delivered to us. You see...it gives eternal life where as disobeying that code gives a lot of things we would prefer not to have...especially as our genetics are either held in obedience, or not, according to laws or the sins that violate that code...and not just our own sins but the sins of our fathers and our forefathers as well...just as modern science indicates.
How many of our leaders even bother to live by the laws conceived by the legislative bodies they are part of...that are intended to protect us from such law-breakers...it seems very few. But as long as they are hidden from view...that's ok. The net result is a world that is heaving at the seams.
But Almighty God has told us...through his son, Jesus Christ...that all this must take place and all those who cling to his righteous teaching accurately will be guided through it all...
...Got to be the best option...hasn't it??
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Nothing wonderful about god if any of that had any truth, NM! >:(
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Nothing wonderful about god if any of that had any truth, NM! >:(
The problem is Floo...that many just want to dis him. He is not a God who switches off then switches on.
He introduced a righteous code...stamped it on our cultures than remained to serve the needs of those he declared interest in...those who follow his righteous code.
Now...what could be more inspiring...following a teaching that appeals to our inner strength...allows similar laws that direct accidental evolution to harness our genetic health so that we are extra strong especially at difficult times, whilst entering a repair cycle and avoiding the harmful affects of bullying...skills that will be especially needed in these last days...cus we aint seen nothin yet.
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YADDA YADDA!
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Equal... how can one be equal
Three can
Not obtuse at all
Then why say "the Son saith" when the text does not say that?
Jesus came in the flesh...
Amen and For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily
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Three can
Then why say "the Son saith" when the text does not say that?
Amen and For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily
Not God then! So now you admit that Jesus is not God.