Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Nearly Sane on November 30, 2016, 11:43:05 AM
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Any unwanted fivers out there?
http://www.guardian-series.co.uk/news/14935069.Vegan_petition_calls_on_Bank_to_remove_animal_fat_from_new_fivers/
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Vegans aren't being asked to eat them! ::)
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Vegans aren't being asked to eat them! ::)
Most vegans avoid use of animal products completely, and they aren't the only people objecting
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Most vegans avoid use of animal products completely, and they aren't the only people objecting
I wonder how many vegans avoid taking medication, most of which have been tested on animals?
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I wonder how many vegans avoid taking medication, most of which have been tested on animals?
Again most will try and avoid such products and campaign to stop animal testing. And again they aren't the only ones objecting.
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Each to their own, I have no objections to using animals for human needs providing they don't suffer more than necessary.
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There's probably a connection with climate change, as livestock are implicated in carbon production, although I think cows are the worst offenders.
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Yup, contributing to global warming as well. I'll donate any I get to the vegetarian society or PETA. Not had one yet though.
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It's just as well the human species were not vegans when they were evolving, as I think we would quickly have become extinct!
I think I've already mentioned this somewhere, but the five pound note has no braille on it, the ten and twenty will have some apparently, so a plastic note without braille = a fiver.
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I wonder how many vegans avoid taking medication, most of which have been tested on animals?
The issue for vegans is whether something contains animal products. There are plenty of people who avid anything that has been tested on animals - vegans and not.
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The vegan position on some products including five pound notes is a little irrational. No animals were killed to make fivers. Tallow is a byproduct of other industries. If herds of animals were being raised specifically to make tallow, the vegans would have a point, but they aren't so they don't.
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What concerns me about this matter is that it involves a very small minority interest forcing its sensibilities onto the rest of the population. I have every sympathy for people who do not wish to eat meat or use products made from animals, but that does not give them the right to enforce their views and behaviour onto other people. It is a form of bullying.
It's a bit like the forcing of shops to trade a limited number of hours on Sundays by people with irrational belief systems. ::)
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I agree with Harowby Hall :)
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What concerns me about this matter is that it involves a very small minority interest forcing its sensibilities onto the rest of the population. I have every sympathy for people who do not wish to eat meat or use products made from animals, but that does not give them the right to enforce their views and behaviour onto other people. It is a form of bullying.
It's a bit like the forcing of shops to trade a limited number of hours on Sundays by people with irrational belief systems. ::)
Isn't the forcing of beliefs happening no matter what choice is made here? And while numbers have some value in a democracy, we need to be careful that simply a tyranny of the majority is avoided. Tell me what good reason there is to have tallow in the make up of fivers.
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The vegan position on some products including five pound notes is a little irrational. No animals were killed to make fivers. Tallow is a byproduct of other industries. If herds of animals were being raised specifically to make tallow, the vegans would have a point, but they aren't so they don't.
Misses the point really - vegans and vegetarians may be against any subsidy of the meat industry. This one may be indirect but is certainly avoidable.
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The vegan position on some products including five pound notes is a little irrational. No animals were killed to make fivers. Tallow is a byproduct of other industries. If herds of animals were being raised specifically to make tallow, the vegans would have a point, but they aren't so they don't.
and once again, they are not the only people objecting. But on the specific point, they would see the 'other industries' as part of the problem and the use of the animals in the 'other industries' as being immoral. While I disagree, they do have a point from their view.
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The vegan position on some products including five pound notes is a little irrational. No animals were killed to make fivers. Tallow is a byproduct of other industries. If herds of animals were being raised specifically to make tallow, the vegans would have a point, but they aren't so they don't.
Not irrational at all. It's all part of the meat industry and the industrial use of animals.
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What concerns me about this matter is that it involves a very small minority interest forcing its sensibilities onto the rest of the population. I have every sympathy for people who do not wish to eat meat or use products made from animals, but that does not give them the right to enforce their views and behaviour onto other people. It is a form of bullying.
It's a bit like the forcing of shops to trade a limited number of hours on Sundays by people with irrational belief systems. ::)
hmm .. the notions of "enforcing their views" and "irrational belief systems" could both do with some examination!
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hmm .. the notions of "enforcing their views" and "irrational belief systems" could both do with some examination!
we must fight for our right to have tallow in banknotes!
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Look - simple solution. Apparently the Scots polymer fivers don't have an animal fat content, so why not have all outlets use them instead? (At least then we might not have the funn of seeing certain shops and pubs reject 'em......)
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we must fight for our right to have tallow in banknotes!
Why?
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Why?
Sarcasm!
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Sarcasm!
Good :)
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It's a bit like the forcing of shops to trade a limited number of hours on Sundays by people with irrational belief systems. ::)
First time I've heard Trades Unionists being described as having 'irrationalbelief systems'. I don't always agree with them, but I wouldn't call them irrational.
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I agree with Harowby Hall :)
So you would regard Trades Unionists as irrational?
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What concerns me about this matter is that it involves a very small minority interest forcing its sensibilities onto the rest of the population. I have every sympathy for people who do not wish to eat meat or use products made from animals, but that does not give them the right to enforce their views and behaviour onto other people. It is a form of bullying.
It's a bit like the forcing of shops to trade a limited number of hours on Sundays by people with irrational belief systems. ::)
Why not change it if it is easy to do so though? If it is a major issue then so be it but shouldn't think it was.
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First time I've heard Trades Unionists being described as having 'irrationalbelief systems'.
First time I have heard that Trades Unionists are forcing shops to trade a limited number of hours on Sundays.
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First time I have heard that Trades Unionists are forcing shops to trade a limited number of hours on Sundays.
Not here though: here in civilisation Sunday shopping is, well, civilised.
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Look - simple solution. Apparently the Scots polymer fivers don't have an animal fat content, so why not have all outlets use them instead? (At least then we might not have the funn of seeing certain shops and pubs reject 'em......)
Having read more about this, it seems both Scottish notes and the BoE notes contain trace amounts of the fat. In fact nearly all plastics do. Not enough to get make any significant difference to any animal welfare issues.
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Just been listening to BBC Radio 4 More or Less. The question of tallow in the bank notes came up. According to the programme, the quantity of tallow is so small as to be effectively unmeasurable. It would appear that - for all the notes now in circulation - the total amount of fat required would come from a single cow. And there would be cow to spare.
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An interesting development:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cambridgeshire-38184599
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I saw that, Gordon. We have no idea about what animal substance may be used in very small quantities, in the manufacture of all kinds of consumer products. The behaviour of the woman in this instance is unreasonable - and close to (what used to be called) hysteria.
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Misses the point really - vegans and vegetarians may be against any subsidy of the meat industry. This one may be indirect but is certainly avoidable.
I don't think you can say vegetarians as a group are against any subsidy of the meat industry. Some of them might be but many are less strict.
As for the vegans, it's a done deal. Going forwards, the tallow will be eliminated. Problem over.
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The fiver and the 20,000 pounds
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-south-scotland-38223552
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On More or Less, they calculated exactly how much fat was used in all the £5 notes based on the Bank of England's statement that it was "a trace" i.e. less than 100 parts per million.
They found that only one cow was needed for all the notes made so far.
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On More or Less, they calculated exactly how much fat was used in all the £5 notes based on the Bank of England's statement that it was "a trace" i.e. less than 100 parts per million.
They found that only one cow was needed for all the notes made so far.
Yes, I wrote that a week ago!
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Again most will try and avoid such products and campaign to stop animal testing. And again they aren't the only ones objecting.
I asked a vegan on ther Old Beeb if, as he was so opposed to testing of medication on animals, he would offer himself as a guinea pig in the animals place.
His answer?
No - he would not - there are (get your giggle gear ready) people in prison that can be used for that!
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Yes, I wrote that a week ago!
Since you admit it, I should be able to sue you for plagiarism.
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Any unwanted fivers out there?
http://www.guardian-series.co.uk/news/14935069.Vegan_petition_calls_on_Bank_to_remove_animal_fat_from_new_fivers/
If there are any vegans out there who feel that they have been forced to take possession of these tainted notes, I would be quite happy to take them off their hands.
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An interesting development:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cambridgeshire-38184599
I wonder whether, if one was to delve a tad deeper, we'd find animal material in the plastic that is used for credit and debit cards? What woukld this lady do then? ;)
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I wonder whether, if one was to delve a tad deeper, we'd find animal material in the plastic that is used for credit and debit cards? What woukld this lady do then? ;)
Shit herself?
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Keeping the fat
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/bank-of-england-5-note-10-animal-fat-keep-confirm-g-currency-pound-sterling-a7581131.html
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Well it says they aren't withdrawing the current ones and are still looking into alternatives for the future - which is fine by me, so long as they are taking it seriously as they claim. Bit doubtful though when they then say its only a small amount - as if that makes a difference really.
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Vegans are becoming, if they are not already, as big a pain in the butt as PETA, militant Christians and militant muslims!
They wouldn't know live and let live if it jumped up and bit them on the butt!
OK - the usual suspects can now line up to slag me off for my 'outdated' views!
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Vegans are becoming, if they are not already, as big a pain in the butt as PETA, militant Christians and militant muslims!
They wouldn't know live and let live if it jumped up and bit them on the butt!
OK - the usual suspects can now line up to slag me off for my 'outdated' views!
All Vegans?
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Vegans are becoming, if they are not already, as big a pain in the butt as PETA, militant Christians and militant muslims!
They wouldn't know live and let live if it jumped up and bit them on the butt!
OK - the usual suspects can now line up to slag me off for my 'outdated' views!
Not me, I agree with you 🙂🌹
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All Vegans?
In my personal experience - yes, most definitely!
My last boss would get into work early in order to leave pro-vegan, anti-vegetarian, anti-meat pamphlest and screeds on every desk in the office and God help you if she saw you throw tthe away with out reading them! Hell hath no fury within a hundred miles!
I will give up meat when man/woman evolves so that he/she has no canine teeth whose only purpose is tearing meat!
Until then bring on the steaks, sausages and bacon/ham!
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Really ?
About the vegans I mean.
Must be because I'm in a different part of the country. No problem with them here. By which I mean I never notice them, get leaflets from them or are in anyway influenced by them either by being lectured or having my awareness raised or anything.
Off for a bacon sarnie now.
Nighty-night.
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My only gripe with vegans is that too many go for the (non-leather) sandals and socks combo. It's intensely distracting.
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In my personal experience - yes, most definitely!
My last boss would get into work early in order to leave pro-vegan, anti-vegetarian, anti-meat pamphlest and screeds on every desk in the office and God help you if she saw you throw tthe away with out reading them! Hell hath no fury within a hundred miles!
I will give up meat when man/woman evolves so that he/she has no canine teeth whose only purpose is tearing meat!
Until then bring on the steaks, sausages and bacon/ham!
I'm vegan and do not campaign or leave leaflets around. I do what I personnally feel comfortable with and let others do the same but if asked I will explain why I am vegan and discuss things, when people are interested - such as the only purpose of our canine teeth to be tearing meat.
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I couldn't manage a vegan lifestyle, in spite of being veggie. Hats off to those who do.
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In my personal experience - yes, most definitely!
My last boss would get into work early in order to leave pro-vegan, anti-vegetarian, anti-meat pamphlest and screeds on every desk in the office and God help you if she saw you throw tthe away with out reading them! Hell hath no fury within a hundred miles!
I will give up meat when man/woman evolves so that he/she has no canine teeth whose only purpose is tearing meat!
Until then bring on the steaks, sausages and bacon/ham!
This is a self fulfilling observation though since if you meet a vegan who doesn't do this, then you won't know. You've set up a conclusion from a position of unfalsifiability.
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This is a self fulfilling observation though since if you meet a vegan who doesn't do this, then you won't know. You've set up a conclusion from a position of unfalsifiability.
My conclusion was, and is, that "from my personal experience" of vegans they are a pain in the arse and, until such time as "my personal experience" tells me different that will remain my conclusion.
They are, to me, another group of those, like some Christians, who consider that their way is the only way and it must be everybody's way!
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My conclusion was, and is, that "from my personal experience" of vegans they are a pain in the arse and, until such time as "my personal experience" tells me different that will remain my conclusion.
They are, to me, another group of those, like some Christians, who consider that their way is the only way and it must be everybody's way!
How do you know if you have met other Vegans who haven't acted like this though?
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My conclusion was, and is, that "from my personal experience" of vegans they are a pain in the arse and, until such time as "my personal experience" tells me different that will remain my conclusion.
They are, to me, another group of those, like some Christians, who consider that their way is the only way and it must be everybody's way!
Yes, but by definition you may have met many vegans who do not behave like this but you woukd not know thus. So your conclusion is invalid.
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Yes, but by definition you may have met many vegans who do not behave like this but you would not know thus. So your conclusion is invalid.
Not "from my experience" of those who have openly espoused veganism. If I have met vegans who have not ope4nly espoused the position I am not able to include them in "my experience" am I?
Your pedantry addiction does not make my experience invalid!
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Not "from my experience" of those who have openly espoused veganism. If I have met vegans who have not ope4nly espoused the position I am not able to include them in "my experience" am I?
Your pedantry addiction does not make my experience invalid!
Which means making a conclusion about all vegans is invalid because as you yourself note here, you wouldn't have the information to to so..
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It's a bit like the forcing of shops to trade a limited number of hours on Sundays by people with irrational belief systems. ::)
I don't really see it as equivalent.
The Christian anti-Sunday shopping lot want to stop us from doing something we might otherwise wish to do, in other words shop on a Sunday outside of a small number of hours, which may not be convenient.
The vegan campaigners are trying to stop us spending cash, or even £5 notes - they just want the manufacturing process changed so they don't contain animal fat. Were they to get their way my life wouldn't be changed one iota - I could still pay for things with £5 notes - they'd just be different in a manner which wouldn't make any difference to me, but would to them.
So there isn't an equivalence at all in my view.
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First time I've heard Trades Unionists being described as having 'irrationalbelief systems'. I don't always agree with them, but I wouldn't call them irrational.
When opposing longer opening hours Trade unionists are looking to protect their members rights - there is nothing irrational about that. And they have been consistent, for example their concerns about all night running of the tube system in London. It isn't just Sunday they are concerned about. Not saying I agree with them, but their arguments are consistent and rational.
Christians, in contrast, aren't arguing from a rational perspective when trying to prevent longer opening hours on Sundays - firstly because there is no rational reason why only Sunday is important in this context. Secondly there is gross inconsistency (linked to the lack of rational view) - I haven't seen Christian groups similarly campaigning against extended opening of shops/museums/tubes etc on other days of the week, which affect workers lives in a similar manner to extended opening on Sundays.
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When opposing longer opening hours Trade unionists are looking to protect their members rights - there is nothing irrational about that. And they have been consistent, for example their concerns about all night running of the tube system in London. It isn't just Sunday they are concerned about. Not saying I agree with them, but their arguments are consistent and rational.
Christians, in contrast, aren't arguing from a rational perspective when trying to prevent longer opening hours on Sundays - firstly because there is no rational reason why only Sunday is important in this context. Secondly there is gross inconsistency (linked to the lack of rational view) - I haven't seen Christian groups similarly campaigning against extended opening of shops/museums/tubes etc on other days of the week, which affect workers lives in a similar manner to extended opening on Sundays.
I 'hope' that you re not expecting a reply from the original poster?! ;)
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Not "from my experience" of those who have openly espoused veganism. If I have met vegans who have not ope4nly espoused the position I am not able to include them in "my experience" am I?
Yes, part of your experience would be meeting vegans who don't openly espose veganism.
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Yes, part of your experience would be meeting vegans who don't openly espose veganism.
Don't be daft! If I don't know they are vegan, their vegan stance cannot be part of my experience! I can only judge by those who did make their veganism known!
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Harrowby Hall on December 01, 2016, 06:13:17 AM
It's a bit like the forcing of shops to trade a limited number of hours on Sundays by people with irrational belief systems. ::)
I don't really see it as equivalent.
I never said it was. What I was saying was simply that it is a case of a minority trying to force a majority into complying with its idiosyncratic views. Nothing more.
It's taken you a long time to comment on this.
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What I was saying was simply that it is a case of a minority trying to force a majority into complying with its idiosyncratic views.
Precisely my point in #43!
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Don't be daft! If I don't know they are vegan, their vegan stance cannot be part of my experience! I can only judge by those who did make their veganism known!
Part of your experience is meeting vegans who you don't know are vegans.
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Part of your experience is meeting vegans who you don't know are vegans.
Yes! Because they keep their traps shut and don't try to convert me to veganism, an experience I am happy to forgo!
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Your beef (sorry) is with militant vegans, Sir Owl, and they aren't the majority any more than that PITA pagans are the majority or the in-you-face Christians are.
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Yes! Because they keep their traps shut and don't try to convert me to veganism, an experience I am happy to forgo!
to change this slightly, were you aware until this thread that Maeght was vegan? If not, then your experience is now expanded so that your initial statement, logically flawed as it was, is shown to be wrong in its premises
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to change this slightly, were you aware until this thread that Maeght was vegan? If not, then your experience is now expanded so that your initial statement, logically flawed as it was, is shown to be wrong in its premises
Oh give it a bloody rest for f**ks sake!
Maeght has alreaddy said tbhet she does not proselytise for veganism - good on her!
I have said before and I say again for the last time MY BEEF IS WITH THOSE WHO DO! Vegans, PETAs, Christians, muslims, tories, labourites, trade unionists - they can all think and say what they like as long as they don't try to get me to think like them!
Have you and Maeght got that through your thick skulls yet? If not, tough, 'cos I'm not saying it aagin!
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Oh give it a bloody rest for f**ks sake!
Maeght has alreaddy said tbhet she does not proselytise for veganism - good on her!
I have said before and I say again for the last time MY BEEF IS WITH THOSE WHO DO! Vegans, PETAs, Christians, muslims, tories, labourites, trade unionists - they can all think and say what they like as long as they don't try to get me to think like them!
Have you and Maeght got that through your thick skulls yet? If not, tough, 'cos I'm not saying it aagin!
The problem is that you initially stated the comment applied to all vegans, then qualified it to in your experience, and have since had that shown not to be true. Lazy generalizations such as you initially started with are simple prejudices.
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Oh give it a bloody rest for f**ks sake!
Maeght has alreaddy said tbhet she does not proselytise for veganism - good on her!
I have said before and I say again for the last time MY BEEF IS WITH THOSE WHO DO! Vegans, PETAs, Christians, muslims, tories, labourites, trade unionists - they can all think and say what they like as long as they don't try to get me to think like them!
Have you and Maeght got that through your thick skulls yet? If not, tough, 'cos I'm not saying it aagin!
Your original post said 'Vegans are becoming, if they are not already, as big a pain in the butt as PETA, militant Christians and militant muslims!' As has been said you tried to back track after making such a lazy generalisation by saying 'in your experience'. Perhaps it is you who has the thick skull not to recognise this and perhaps you should give it a rest and just accept you made a lazy generalisation. Getting offensive and swearing suggests - as ever -that you are rattled but unable to take back anything you have said or able to admit you made a mistake.
And by the way I am a he not a she.
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The problem is that you initially stated the comment applied to all vegans, then qualified it to in your experience, and have since had that shown not to be true. Lazy generalizations such as you initially started with are simple prejudices.
Pedantry stikes again - you are one of those who will not, under any circumstances, be wrong in any way!
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Your original post said 'Vegans are becoming, if they are not already, as big a pain in the butt as PETA, militant Christians and militant muslims!' As has been said you tried to back track after making such a lazy generalisation by saying 'in your experience'. Perhaps it is you who has the thick skull not to recognise this and perhaps you should give it a rest and just accept you made a lazy generalisation. Getting offensive and swearing suggests - as ever -that you are rattled but unable to take back anything you have said or able to admit you made a mistake.
And by the way I am a he not a she.
Bully for you!
An you cannot or will not admit that your fellow vegans are becoming more and more vociferouis in their pursuit of an all vegan society!
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Bully for you!
An you cannot or will not admit that your fellow vegans are becoming more and more vociferouis in their pursuit of an all vegan society!
That's a strawman
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Pedantry stikes again - you are one of those who will not, under any circumstances, be wrong in any way!
Well pedantry only works when you are right.
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Bully for you!
How grown up.
An you cannot or will not admit that your fellow vegans are becoming more and more vociferouis in their pursuit of an all vegan society!
Irrelevant to this thread and you do not know my views on my fellow vegans.
you are one of those who will not, under any circumstances, be wrong in any way!
That really is a case of the pot calling the kettle black.
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That really is a case of the pot calling the kettle black.
Oh I have been wrong more times than I have ever been right, but I object to it when some minority, and I don't particularly care what minority decides that its beliefs must take precedence over mine, whatevetr my belioefs on a subject might be,
What the agenda of those who are not trying to force their agenda on everyone else is irrelbvant as the argument is about those who ARE trying to force the agenda be tghey pastafarians, Christians, Freemasons, Muslims, Flat Earthers, Intelligent Designers, Old Uncle TYom Cobley and all!. Just because THEY believe they are right does not make me or anyone else who opposed their view wrong.
If you don't agree with them, i e you believe that they are wrong, why aren't you telling them so, you are quick enough to tell me that I am!
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Oh I have been wrong more times than I have ever been right, but I object to it when some minority, and I don't particularly care what minority decides that its beliefs must take precedence over mine, whatevetr my belioefs on a subject might be,
What the agenda of those who are not trying to force their agenda on everyone else is irrelbvant as the argument is about those who ARE trying to force the agenda be tghey pastafarians, Christians, Freemasons, Muslims, Flat Earthers, Intelligent Designers, Old Uncle TYom Cobley and all!. Just because THEY believe they are right does not make me or anyone else who opposed their view wrong.
If you don't agree with them, i e you believe that they are wrong, why aren't you telling them so, you are quick enough to tell me that I am!
shiny shiny mirror
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Oh I have been wrong more times than I have ever been right, but I object to it when some minority, and I don't particularly care what minority decides that its beliefs must take precedence over mine, whatevetr my belioefs on a subject might be,
What the agenda of those who are not trying to force their agenda on everyone else is irrelbvant as the argument is about those who ARE trying to force the agenda be tghey pastafarians, Christians, Freemasons, Muslims, Flat Earthers, Intelligent Designers, Old Uncle TYom Cobley and all!. Just because THEY believe they are right does not make me or anyone else who opposed their view wrong.
If you don't agree with them, i e you believe that they are wrong, why aren't you telling them so, you are quick enough to tell me that I am!
stop lying!
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Oh I have been wrong more times than I have ever been right,
I don't doubt that - but you never say so on here.
... but I object to it when some minority, and I don't particularly care what minority decides that its beliefs must take precedence over mine, whatevetr my belioefs on a subject might be,
Which is not what this thread is about.
What the agenda of those who are not trying to force their agenda on everyone else is irrelbvant as the argument is about those who ARE trying to force the agenda be tghey pastafarians, Christians, Freemasons, Muslims, Flat Earthers, Intelligent Designers, Old Uncle TYom Cobley and all!. Just because THEY believe they are right does not make me or anyone else who opposed their view wrong.
If you don't agree with them, i e you believe that they are wrong, why aren't you telling them so, you are quick enough to tell me that I am!
I have stated my position on this thread if you want to take a look back. Also we are not talking about whethere they are right or wrong but about your lazy generalisation about vegans. To clarify, my position is that where there is an alternative which does not involve the suffering of sentient beings then I choose to take that alternative. I think it is correct for people to highlight issues such as the use of animal fats in the manufacture of fivers and their right to campaign to have this changed since there are alternatives. I also think it is within people's right to campaign to increase awareness of veganism and to highlight where animal products are used when there are alternatives as I think there is a great lack of understanding around this. I am against extremisim in veganism as I don't think this helps the argument - I also do think humans come first. If an extreme vegan was posting on here I would respond, but as it stands it is just you with your generalisation about vegans.